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Did your car witness a crime?

rbalicki
262 replies
2d2h

Genuine question: What is stopping some small percent of drivers from installing cameras and using ML to identify cars driving dangerously (e.g. speeding, running reds, changing multiple lanes at once, etc.), and when their license plate is identifiable, finding and informing their insurance company?

If even a small subset of users did this, and insurers did something with this information, it would substantially disincentivize driving like a complete maniac.

Are insurers unable to use this information? Are they afraid of the backlash from being the first to accept this information? Is there some legal reason this isn't doable?

pmichaud
91 replies
1d22h

Setting aside the obvious dystopian next steps, I think the main problem with automated traffic law enforcement is that our laws are quite bad in the sense that they rely on enforcement being loose and somewhat subjective to even work at all. The speeds on various roads, the timing of traffic lights, the places one can park and for how long, etc, are not carefully planned or thought out enough to actually work if everyone were to strictly adhere to them. It all works because lots of people can briefly park in illegal places, choose reasonable times to speed, or reasonable moments to use the shoulder to go around obstructions, etc.

Obviously you capture some craziness on the margin that you want to capture, but also on the margin is the fudging that makes the whole thing work at all.

mft_
80 replies
1d21h

I’m struggling to understand your point, or to imagine many examples which support it.

I agree that brief minor parking infringements may occasionally make people’s lives more efficient; but I can’t think of any examples where traffic lights and speed limits need to be routinely disregarded?

repeekad
45 replies
1d20h

You clearly haven’t received a letter in the mail for $250 because a camera saw you barely not fully stop for a red light right turn at 3am with zero traffic

A human in the loop needs to be the first line of defense, if an officer isn’t willing to be in the field to issue the ticket and show up in court to defend it then there shouldn’t be a ticket in the first place, full stop

askvictor
38 replies
1d20h

Were you in that much of a hurry to not be able to wait 30 seconds for the traffic light?

repeekad
16 replies
1d20h

That’s not the point, a surveillance state where the panopticon autonomously gives $250 tickets is the issue

Rules aren’t meant to be cold hard algorithms to blindly punish people with; we wouldn’t automate a judge with an algorithm why is it somehow different to automate a police officer with one?

try_the_bass
9 replies
1d18h

Why is that not the point?

You violated a law and received a penalty. You're not disputing that you violated said law, but are instead trying to justify it with "barely didn't stop" and "it's 3am and there is no traffic".

Isn't the point that you got punished for doing something you would have gotten away with had no one been watching?

tway_GdBRwW
5 replies
1d17h

because maybe the point is "The basic premise of democracy is that the citizens/ordinary people are trusted as the ultimate source of the law, and the law is to serve them, not them to serve the law."

Nice twist to the premise at the end, but no, the point is that the person got punished for using sound and reasonable judgement in a situation where the regulation (not law) was ill thought out.

try_the_bass
4 replies
1d17h

"Sound and reasonable judgement" to save a couple seconds?

That still just seems like rationalization of bad behavior.

You're right that the basic premise of democracy is that citizens can be trusted as the source of the law, but it seems to me that this particular citizen can't actually be trusted? I mean, they're demonstrating a lack of integrity, are they not?

kelnos
1 replies
1d10h

That still just seems like rationalization of bad behavior.

I think the issue is that you're taking as fact that "in order to be safe, you must come to a full stop at a red light before turning right", and that not doing so is, indisputably, "bad behavior". I dispute that. I think in many situations it is just as safe to nearly-but-not-completely come to a full stop before continuing, and it's entirely fine behavior.

The law has some difficulty encoding that. (Not that it's impossible, but it's difficult, and enforcement perhaps gets weirder if you try.)

Let's take a related example: jaywalking. In many places, you can get a ticket for crossing the street somewhere where there isn't a crosswalk, or crossing against a red light or a don't-walk sign. I was taught as a child how to look both ways and only cross when and where it's safe to do so. I don't need a sign or stripes on the road to tell me that (though I do appreciate those things as hints and suggestions). Hell, in some places (Manhattan comes to mind), if you don't jaywalk, everyone around you will look at you funny and get annoyed with you.

California, recognizing this, finally eliminated most jaywalking laws a year and half ago[0]. You can only get cited here if you've failed to do what your parents told you, and you're crossing when it's not safe to do so.

Stopping fully at a red light before turning right is, IMO, similar enough. For many (most?) intersections, you're only going to be a teeny tiny fraction of a percent safer coming to a full stop. So why bother?

[0] Let's also remember that jaywalking laws exist only because car manufacturers wanted them. Walking in the street!? How absurd! Streets are only for our beautifully-produced cars! Not you grubby plebeian pedestrians. Away with you!

estebank
0 replies
1d2h

I think in many situations it is just as safe to nearly-but-not-completely come to a full stop before continuing, and it's entirely fine behavior.

I'm sure the multiple people that would have hit me if I hadn't jumped out of the way because they were looking the ither way to see if cars where coming thought the same.

Let's take a related example: jaywalking.

When walking one is not impaired in one's vision of the surroundings, and you're not operating heavy machinery. The worst you can do is get yourself killed. With a car, the most likely scenario is to kill someone else.

deergomoo
1 replies
1d10h

You're talking about someone who, from their description, slowed down to something like 0.1mph instead of absolute zero. At 3am, in an empty road. How is that bad behaviour, lack of integrity, and a sign someone can't be trusted?

try_the_bass
0 replies
16h31m

Integrity is commonly defined as "doing the right thing, even if no one is watching", is it not?

I highly doubt this person would have rolled through the light if a cop were sitting at the intersection watching them, and they knew they were being observed.

To several other posters' points, the specific regulation in question exists for safety reasons. Those safety reasons don't go away just because you don't think they apply in the moment. I'm sure every person who has hit (or been hit by) another person when rolling through a right turn like that thought their judgement in the moment was reasonable, too. I'm also sure not every one of those would have been prevented by coming to a complete stop and looking at the turn, but certainly some of them would have, which is a net positive for everyone. This comes at a cost of a handful of seconds, which seems like the most trivial of inconveniences, and wholly worth paying every time.

kelnos
2 replies
1d10h

I don't actually disagree with some level of automated enforcement, but I do disagree with your phrasing/justification of it.

I just don't believe violating the law is always wrong, always bad, or always unsafe. While I would agree that most people are bad at risk assessment, and most people are not good drivers, the law should be flexible enough to deal with cases where breaking it is absolutely fine to do.

As a perhaps weird and imperfect analogy, killing another person is illegal... except when it isn't. The law recognizes that sometimes, even if in rare cases, killing another person is justified. This is why we have different words: "homicide" is sometimes not "murder" or even "manslaughter"; sometimes it's "self-defense".

try_the_bass
0 replies
16h22m

I wholly agree that violating some laws is entirely justified.

However, I don't think any violation is justified by what more or less amounts to laziness and the desire to save an inconsequential amount of time.

johnisgood
0 replies
1d8h

Or sometimes it is the death sentence.

I agree with you, FWIW.

acdha
3 replies
1d18h

It’s hardly a surveillance state to say operators of heavy machinery should do so safely: there are many, many dead pedestrians and bicyclists who were hit by someone who _thought_ the road was empty, and American traffic laws are so lenient that it’s disturbing that people think they’re overbearing.

It’s estimated that we are effectively subsidizing drivers by close to a trillion dollars annually by not requiring adequate insurance to cover the full cost to victims. Just pay your ticket and drive better before you make a mistake you’ll never recover from.

acdha
1 replies
1d6h

Definitely: bigger vehicles, higher speeds, and because the alternatives to driving have been starved of funding or removed the entire system is loathe to punish bad drivers because taking away someone’s license largely removes their ability to function.

johnisgood
0 replies
1d6h

Unfortunately the state of public transportation is awful in the US, for sure.

froggit
0 replies
1d19h

Rules aren’t meant to be cold hard algorithms to blindly punish people with; we wouldn’t automate a judge with an algorithm why is it somehow different to automate a police officer with one?

The role of enforcing certain laws can be easily fulfilled with simple algorithms as the logic required is on early grade school level. In this case it's something like: if "stoplight is red" and "car doesn't stop", then "driver gets ticket." That's all the algorithm has to do, super easy to automate. Automation allows for enforcement where it would otherwise not be cost effective, like when it's 3am and no one else is around.

The judiciary, however, has to interpret all kinds of crazy edge cases that people come up with to try and get out of tickets for rolling stops or whatever legal case, for all laws, because every now and then someone has a valid case. That's a bit harder to do with a couple lines of code and some low cost hardware.

edmundsauto
0 replies
1d15h

America has tried to do this, famously, with the "3 strikes and you're out" laws of the past century.

lolinder
14 replies
1d20h

We're talking about a rolling right turn on red, not crossing the whole intersection on red. The turn is allowed but the camera took issue with how much of a stop came first.

I don't know very many drivers who wouldn't recognize that camera behavior at 3:00 in the morning as unreasonable.

c22
13 replies
1d19h

Why not just come to a full stop? It's presumably dark out at 3am so you may have missed a pedestrian or a vehicle with no headlights. It only takes an extra second or two to stop and look around.

lolinder
11 replies
1d18h

At the majority of signal-controlled intersections with city limits there's plenty of visibility even (or dare I say especially) at 3am and the scanning can happen as you approach.

(Also, the kind of rolling stop I'm talking about isn't a 5mph roll, it's a near-stop that feels like a stop to the driver but technically doesn't actually bring the tires to stationary. Odds are even you have done this kind of stop pretty regularly without realizing it, and even a cop wouldn't even notice it as incorrect unless they were actively looking for someone to ticket.)

c22
9 replies
1d17h

Odds are I haven't since I'm always careful to stop twice when turning right on red. (Once before the crosswalk, and again at the far side of the crosswalk to check for cross traffic before executing the turn.)

lolinder
6 replies
1d15h

The second stop is legally irrelevant—if your first stop is insufficient you've run the red as far as the camera is concerned.

The second stop may actually be illegal in its own right depending on the state.

c22
5 replies
1d15h

It's what I was taught to do in driver's ed. I know of no state where turning right on a red light is compulsory so I don't see how coming to a complete stop at any point could possibly be considered illegal.

lolinder
3 replies
1d15h

You're in the intersection at that point and blocking the crosswalk, so you're no longer behind the red light, you're in front of it. In every state I've lived in you can absolutely get pulled over for stopping in the road where there is no need and no signal.

c22
2 replies
1d15h

The first stop is for the crosswalk. (I might do this even when the light is green if there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk since never hitting a pedestrian is a rule of mine.) If I see a pedestrian in or approaching the crosswalk I wait here until they are completely cleared. Then I slowly roll forward for the second stop. This is the stop I use to check for approaching motor traffic. I have better visibility now because there's no longer a lifted F150 blocking my view to the left. Assuming I do notice an approaching vehicle I'm supposed to what? Drive into it? I would love to be in court accused of failing to run a red light into active cross traffic.

Anyway, you can drive however you want. I've been driving like this for over 30 years all across the United States and I have never been pulled over, cited, rear ended, or even, as far as I can recall, honked at while pulling this particular maneuver so I think some of the risks you are imagining may be overblown.

kelnos
1 replies
1d10h

I don't really find anything wrong with your approach (I do the double-stop sometimes too, if conditions warrant it). But coming to a complete stop (once or twice), for many intersections, for many road conditions, for many times of day, is not going to meaningfully increase anyone's level of safety (yours, another driver's, a cyclist's, a pedestrian's...) vs. a momentary pretty-much-but-not-really-stopped stop.

To use your phrasing, the risk of anything bad happening after a not-quite stop may be overblown.

c22
0 replies
1d3h

Sure, I'll agree that there may be times when the "extra" caution is unwarranted by the situation at the intersection. But by doing this every time I ingrain it as an automatic habit which greatly reduces my ongoing risk of failing to use extra caution at some point where it is warranted!

Since the failure mode is an auto accident and the cost of the habit is marginal I feel comfortable promoting this behavior. I have definitely seen accidents and many near misses caused by people who failed to come to a complete stop and look around when conditions did warrant it.

Another lesson I learned in driver's ed is that traffic approaching from the left can be traveling at a speed that completely synchronizes with the A-pillar of your moving vehicle, causing it to be completely invisible to you right up until the moment it collides with your front driver's side fender. This is why I stop and move my head around while I look, to make sure I'm not missing anything. I'm just a stupid human after all.

monkeywork
0 replies
1d14h

You have a STOPPING line that is on YOUR side of the crosswalk. That is the line you stay behind during a red light, if you stop then cross the line and stop again in the eye of the law it's no different than if you hadn't stopped behind the line at all.

You are correct that it's not compulsory to turn right on a red, however, if you are going to turn right you can't just stop in the middle of the intersection you either stay back or you go.

stopsandgoes
1 replies
1d16h

Have you ever been rear-ended, stopping twice like that?

I have.

c22
0 replies
19h13m

Never while turning right on red. I was rear ended once by a fellow who was looking at his phone and did not notice me and the line of stopped cars waiting at a red light. But sometimes what can you do?

grepfru_it
0 replies
1d16h

Depends on your state. In my state we can take driving actions that violate the law as long as we can prove it was safe to do at the time. Your state may not be so lenient.

kelnos
0 replies
1d10h

Why not just come to a full stop?

Because people don't. That's just a fact of life, and we even have silly names (like "California stop") for the all-too-common behavior of barely or not completely stopping at a stop sign before continuing on.

I'm not excusing this behavior (even though I do it myself), but it's a widespread fact of life. The world is squishy, and I don't think it's reasonable to punish everyone for not coming to a full stop every single time, even if it's 0.01% safer to do so.

It's also kinda hard to define a "full stop". Well, obviously there are some states that are very obviously a car at rest. But if you were to, say, graph my car's speed at an intersection with a stop sign, you might see a curve that flattens out to where the slope is zero. Maybe that zero-slope point is a teeny tiny fraction of a second, though. Did I come to a full stop? Yes! Can a cop actually realize I did come to a full stop? Often not. Ok, so I did stop, but did I give enough time while at a full stop in order to assess that it was safe to continue moving? Do I even need to do that after I've come to a full stop, or can I start that assessment when my speed is 3mph, and know by the time I've fully stopped that it's immediately safe to continue? I think so, yes.

It's just fuzzy. Humans are fuzzy. The law is fuzzy. Safety is not a yes/no binary, it's fuzzy. Many many people don't always come to a full stop. That's just a fact; asking why is probably pointless.

monkeywork
1 replies
1d19h

That is a discussion that can be had between the offender and the police officer, also depending what you are driving (ie a motorcycle) often traffic lights may not detect you and you can be sitting there forever.

Put it this way would you feel comfortable having your phone just passively watching you and anytime you break any law that is on the books it calls the cops on you? If you can see that as over reaching you can understand why others don't want automated enforcement done to them.

kelnos
0 replies
1d10h

That is a discussion that can be had between the offender and the police officer

Once you've been pulled over, a police officer is unlikely to change their course of action based on anything you say to them. Especially in this case, of not coming quite to a full stop at a red light before turning right. The cop knows it was safe to do so. They just want the ticket revenue or to fill up their quota for the month. Or they're just having a bad day and want to harass someone who can't fight back. Or, if I'm being charitable, they're an incessant rule-follower who doesn't understand how reality works.

gog
1 replies
1d20h

I believe the commenter is in US where you are allowed to make a right turn on a red light but you must stop and make sure it's safe to do so.

throwaway2037
0 replies
1d7h

There is old Woody Allen joke: The only advantage of LA over NYC is right turn on red light is allowed.

mauvehaus
0 replies
1d20h

At 3am? Bed presumably.

concordDance
0 replies
1d9h

Regardless of whether he can wait 30 seconds there is no good reason to impose that cost. Its just randomly making someone's life worse for literally no gain. Time is our most precious and finite commodity and should not be wasted.

LinuxBender
3 replies
1d18h

Or the cases when you are on a motorcycle at 3am and the road sensors don't sense you so at the advise of a police officer, you carefully and safely run the red light. I think we know what's going to happen. I've come to the conclusion that most of the dystopian movies about robots and automation are just [spoilers].

Either way I moved to a very rural and remote location. One of my many hopes is that it will buy enough time for urban and suburban areas to duke it out in courts for a couple decades before I have to deal with the fallout.

TomK32
1 replies
1d8h

Just to be safe, you could push the bike, at least with bicycles you're a pedestrian as soon as you don't ride but push it.

LinuxBender
0 replies
1d6h

Pushing a 500 pound motorcycle through an intersection in a time there may be drunk drivers sounds extra risky to me.

I think a solution would be to first implement this AI in a tech-only city. Tech billionaires were planning on building a tech city in California. That seems like a good test-bed to fail fast and fail often. The AI need first be installed around all the billionaires homes and the system must have full transparency. Or the system accidentally leak some interesting stats including to show if anyone was made exempt. The fines won't affect them but if their personal drivers get enough moving violations and lose their license it may affect their vendors or make them late for meetings. If they are confident in AI then they would agree to the concept of shared pain. If that tech city falls through then it should be implemented in San Fransisco for five years.

LoganDark
0 replies
1d9h

I've had to do this with an electric scooter before. Sometimes the road sensors aren't tuned for very small things... probably because most cars aren't that small.

kelnos
0 replies
1d10h

Hell, I've been pulled over (and given a ticket) in nearly that exact situation you describe (I think it was more like 1am for me). Reasonable human discretion didn't help me that time.

if an officer isn’t willing to be in the field to issue the ticket and show up in court to defend it then there shouldn’t be a ticket in the first place

I'm torn on this in general. The idealist in me really really really wants to agree with your statement, but the sheer number of cars on the roads means that cops see a teeny tiny fraction of things that happen. Driving-related injuries and deaths are disgustingly high, and I expect most of them are related to speeding, and running red lights and stop signs. That is, stuff cops are supposed to be policing.

No human-powered enforcement mechanism can watch for all of those. Yes, the usual deterrent factor applies: even if you are a butthole who doesn't care about safety, you might follow the rules because of the (relatively small) possibility that there just might be a cop nearby that sees you doing something bad. But clearly it's not really working all that well; car-related injury and death statistics are still (IMO) unacceptably bad.

I feel like this is sort of unique. Like, for other illegal behaviors, you can usually reduce them through other things. Like, have a healthy economy, low unemployment, under-control inflation, and housing that's affordable enough for everyone who wants to live in a place, and you have an environment where it's rare that people feel the need to commit property crimes. But drivers who speed are gonna speed. Drivers who run red lights and stop signs are gonna run red lights and stop signs.

Maybe -- like for many things -- better enforcement isn't the answer. Better road/traffic engineering, stiffer penalties for when people do get caught doing unsafe things... I dunno, maybe that will get us there. Perhaps we'll have some sort of a transit renaissance, and so many fewer people will opt to drive, and that will naturally make things better. Or maybe self-driving will get good enough (and be used pervasively enough, or perhaps even mandated) that riding in a car will become a lot safer, on par with train or even air travel. Who knows.

Regardless, though, I think my personal level of comfort is somewhere in the middle. I certainly don't want dystopian 100% panopicon-style enforcement of every single thing, where everyone is recorded everywhere they go to make sure they aren't breaking the law. But I think a light sprinkling of automated enforcement here and there is probably not harmful privacy/freedom-wise, but can indeed be a societal good. But I don't exactly trust law enforcement to stay within the lines of their mandate when it comes to these sorts of things. And I don't trust elected officials and judges to actually do something when law enforcement gets out of control.

TomK32
0 replies
1d8h

In my city (200k pop) a lot of traffic lights are turned off, or rather blinking orange during the night. The few exceptions keep operating normal for good reasons. We don't have a smart traffic control system in our city so I assume it's the bare minimum and if the light you talk about was red at 3am, then there's a good reason for it.

xboxnolifes
15 replies
1d21h

It's sometimes safer to speed up 5mph over the limit to get through a yellow light, than to slam your brakes with someone behind you. It's frequently safer to speed to match people speeding around you then to match the stated speed limit (usually on freeways).

ClassyJacket
5 replies
1d18h

You don't ever need to slam on your brakes or speed up for yellow lights, that's the entire point of the yellow light existing instead of just going straight to red.

xboxnolifes
2 replies
1d18h

Not if they're poorly timed.

NiloCK
1 replies
1d17h

What does this mean?

If you observe a yellow and can safely stop, then stop. If you can't safely stop, then don't stop.

Reviving1514
1 replies
1d18h

Some yellows aren't too well timed, especially if on a downhill slope.

grepfru_it
0 replies
1d16h

Again back to control of your vehicle. I would expect a first time driver to make your complaint. A driver for multiple years should be able to adapt their speed for their surroundings

askvictor
4 replies
1d20h

These are both problems caused by poor driving (other peoples' in this case). Maybe with a traffic law panopticon everyone would drive better and these would disappear

mauvehaus
3 replies
1d20h

This is actually a problem with speed limits that don't match the road or alternatively, roads that aren't designed to incentivize people driving the intended speed.

In theory, the speed limit should be set to the 80th or 85th percentile speed of traffic, and the road should be engineered so that the 80th percentile speed is appropriate to the surroundings.

https://www.mikeontraffic.com/85th-percentile-speed-explaine...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_calming

XorNot
2 replies
1d15h

I'm extremely skeptical of this idea of "speed limits which don't match the road" unless people are arguing them down. Because the whole point is that people reliably overestimate their driving ability, and thus overestimate the safe rate of travel on a road.

The road I live on displays this all the time, and that's just an advisory road: the speed limit going down the winding slope near my house is about 50 kmh...that is probably the absolute maximum you can navigate those turns at in perfect conditions, and in reality it's considerably slower - and there are steep embankments either side, so if you lose control your car is at the mercy as to whether or not a tree will stop it plunging over the edge.

Anyway, there's been a fair number of damaged cars and one near miss from said creek plunge in the 2 years I've lived here.

TomK32
1 replies
1d12h

You live on an extreme road where road engineering can't do much due to the given environment and possibly low budget if the road is not that important. Though anything that slows vehicles before entering this stretch of road, or a much less harmful obstacle to heighten their awareness could improve the situation.

Roads where planners have a literal blank sheet is where roads need to be designed better to slow down drivers to the desired speed limit. Sometimes it's as simple as adding traffic islands for pedestrians, narrowing the road or planing trees next to the road.

XorNot
0 replies
1d7h

"advisory" was ambiguous - I meant say, the lower speed limit is advisory - as in "45kmh an hour when wet".

I live in the middle of Sydney. This is an urban road. It is directly off a major highway in a suburban residential area.

It is a regular residential suburban street. No amount of "clever planning" will undo the natural topography of the region. It is a paved, well maintained road and that's the problem - people's judgement of what "feels right" depends on numerous factors they can't see and which don't matter.

They're in the middle of a recently resurfaced, asphalt road with a footpath down the side and what looks like trees and bush on side, and a cliff cut on the other. But it's relatively steep, winds a fair bit due to the climb, but also looks isolated when you're at the bottom because it runs through a state park area.

From street level you cannot tell how slippery it might be when wet (which people just plain suck at), how wet "wet" actually has to be (i.e. partially wet roads are more dangerous then when it's a hard downpour because the surface becomes slick), and unless you paid close attention to the area you can't know that there's no real protection along the side of the road (which shouldn't even be a factor: no one should be driving in a way where they depend on crash severity safety measures).

Observably, people's judgement of "feels right" sucks because as noted: there's been a fair few crashes basically caused by people taking corners too fast (which is to say, maybe they were speeding but that again is the point - they think they can safely go faster, and no, they actually can't and aren't good at judging that) - one of which was a car which very luckily ploughed into a very sturdy tree stump and didn't send it's occupants down the drop into the gulley.

singleshot_
1 replies
1d17h

If you’re speeding up for yellow lights, you are a terrible driver and you should seek out some better skills and practices.

lotsoweiners
0 replies
2h42m

I dunno. I’d rather speed up to make it through than slam on my brakes and have someone rear end me. That’s how I drive and I’ve never been in an accident in around 30 years of driving.

XorNot
1 replies
1d16h

Speed cameras aren't installed at intersections though.

You are railing against an example which doesn't exist.

jsjohnst
0 replies
1d15h

That is quite literally not true. Many states have speed cameras at intersections.

ta8645
8 replies
1d21h

It's not just about efficiency, it's also about quality of life. There is a reason that a cop has permission to use his judgement when deciding to write a ticket or not. Because life is better when we don't live under the oppression of draconian rule keepers all the time. Rules are meant to protect people, and as such are often specified in terms of the lowest common denominator, with the understanding that the system doesn't enforce them when they can be reasonably ignored, using good judgement.

Life will be shittier for everyone if an army of self-empowered rule-loving busybodies get to expand their current powers beyond the realm of the HOA.

c22
7 replies
1d19h

Frankly I'd rather just get a ticket when I speed by a traffic camera than rely on the discretion of a random police officer who might just be looking for a pretense to search my vehicle or hassle me in some other way.

refulgentis
6 replies
1d17h

Jaywalking, to my ear, is a similarly universal & easy example for this not being universally desirable.

BytesAndGears
3 replies
1d14h

Where I lived in Europe (as an American), jaywalking wasn’t illegal. They didn’t even really consider it weird. After all, you’re just walking.

In fact, if you were in the street and a car hit you, the car driver had to prove that it was unavoidable to miss you, otherwise the driver was at fault.

It was also illegal to intentionally block traffic as a pedestrian unless you were at a crosswalk. But there was no law that made it illegal to cross the street anywhere.

Seems like the best of all worlds. And it’s easy to fully enforce the whole “blocking traffic is illegal” part.

kelnos
1 replies
1d11h

As of the beginning of 2023, jaywalking is no longer a thing in California. The only time a cop can cite you is if you're doing something dangerous. If it's safe for you to cross on a red light, or in the middle of a road not near an intersection, that's legally fine now.

Of course, the loophole is large enough to drive a truck through: if a cop wants to, they can decide you're walking "dangerously" as a pretense to hassle you. And most of the time it'll be the cop's word against yours as to whether or not you were being safe or not, and the courts will always side with the cops absent other evidence.

I always thought jaywalking laws were just stupid. The way I looked at it was always: my parents taught me when I was a kid to look both ways, and only cross if it's safe. To me, that suggests that I should always be allowed to cross if I determine it's safe, regardless of other considerations.

(The history of such laws are quite interesting and -- spoiler alert -- surprise, surprise, they were driven by automakers.)

lanstin
0 replies
1d3h

As someone who walks around San Jose quite a lot, on many roads it is safer to cross in the middle of the block than at the intersections. You only have one or two directions to check, and incoming cars have better visibility than at an intersection. And you don't have the failure mode of the car not stopping for the red light.

throwaway2037
0 replies
1d7h

Where?

c22
1 replies
1d17h

It's probably not universally necessary to jaywalk. However, I am against this on the grounds of logistics. I understand and accept the need to have a license and display an identifier while operating a vehicle, but I think this would be an extreme requirement for people walking around (and possibly unconstitutional in the US?) And without this identifier, how will the system know where to send the citation?

All things being equal though this doesn't even sound inherently bad. If every jaywalking infraction was cited we might democratically re-decide how much we want that law to be on the books.

kelnos
0 replies
1d11h

And indeed, California no longer has strong jaywalking laws on the books. A cop can only cite you for jaywalking if you're crossing dangerously. Crossing on a red light, do-not-walk sign, or at a place where there isn't a crosswalk is no longer automatically considered jaywalking.

laweijfmvo
3 replies
1d21h

From what I remember of my CA driver’s license test (had to re-take the written test when I moved to CA), there is no actual speed limit in CA. The speed limit is “whatever conditions deem safe”.

Maybe OP meant something like that?

kelnos
0 replies
1d10h

No, that's not true (CA driver here too). The "whatever conditions deem safe" bit is something that can reduce the legal speed below the posted speed limit. It can never raise it above the posted limit.

Even with no posted speed limit, there is an implicit limit in CA (differs based on the type of road and surrounding locale), and "conditions" can again only reduce that.

aduffy
0 replies
1d20h

As someone who got their first drivers license in California, I can say with certainty that there are in fact speed limits.

acdha
0 replies
1d18h

You might want to review the handbook again. What you’re referring to is the basic speed law, which never trumps the absolute speed limits posted (or the special restrictions like the 15 mph railroad track law). Think of it as a clamped function: the speed limit is min(posted limit, safe speed under current conditions).

Corrado
3 replies
1d12h

I was just discussing this with my wife while driving on the local expressway on a clear Saturday afternoon. The speed limit is 55 MPH but everyone was moving at 70 MPH without any issues. The road is wide and straight with limited on/off ramps and the faster speed felt very natural.

This is a common occurrence on this road and everyone seems to abide pretty well. Sure, there is the occasional "idiot" doing stupid things (weaving in out of traffic, speeding up / slowing down, etc.) but for the most part it just works.

The big problem is when a LEO is around. Everyone slows down to 55ish MPH and traffic backs up and people do weird things.

However, I don't know the solution. If we raise the speed limit to 70 MPH does that mean that people will then feel comfortable going 80 or 90 MPH? If we lower the speed limit to 30 MPH will that cause everyone to only go 55 MPH? This piece of road just feels right and natural at 70 MPH; everyone seems to think so, if unconsciously. Will changing the laws "fix" this piece of road?

kelnos
1 replies
1d11h

The problem with speed limits in general is that they're not universally applicable. Darkness, fog, rain, snow, etc. can all change what the actual safe maximum speed is. So even with a posted 55mph speed limit, the maximum safe speed at a particular time might be lower (even considerably lower), and a LEO could cite you for going too fast even if you're driving under the posted limit. (I've been on the interstate in the snow where you'd be likely to get pulled over if you were going much over 25mph, even with a posted 65mph limit.)

Driver skill and reaction time also plays a factor, but of course people are not so great at judging what their own specific safe speed is all the time. And all other things being equal, you're more likely to get into a crash if you're driving faster rather than slower, and the injuries you sustain will be worse at a higher speed.

IIRC speed limits are often set at some percentile (85th?) of what all drivers would (theoretically) "naturally" drive if there was no posted limit. And, on highways, cops will often not pull people over for exceeding the speed limit by a moderate amount. Once, long ago, a cop told me that, absent adverse conditions or other unsafe behavior, he usually will not stop anyone unless they're going more than 10mph over the highway speed limit. And I expect if he were hiding in a speed trap that no one could actually see driving by, and everyone was going 70mph on your 55mph road, he'd probably just sit there and not bother anyone, unless they were doing something else that was unsafe.

I guess this is a long winded way to say that there really is no single safe speed that applies to everyone, in every road condition. The law acknowledges this, and police often let you do your thing unless they believe you're actually doing something unsafe. The discretion and judgment calls can be a problem (biases, etc.), but I don't think a society where unavoidably "fuzzy" laws were always prosecuted would be a great society either.

throwaway48476
0 replies
1d2h

A lot of departments have policies about not interrupting thr normal flow of traffic.

throwaway2037
0 replies
1d7h

When I was a kid, the argument for lower speeds on expressways was fuel efficiency.

sokoloff
0 replies
1d7h

Properly set speed limits would not need to be routinely disregarded. We don’t have those right now (IMO).

rbalicki
5 replies
1d21h

I would think that once enforcement becomes automated (and thus applies to those with resources, who currently get away with it), there would be a lot of pressure on the legislature (by those who currently get away with it) to make the rules better. Legislatures can move fast, but only when they're motivated. e.g. if every NYC taxi suddenly got a ticket every time they stopped in the street to pick up a passenger, those laws would be updated very quickly.

throwaway2037
0 replies
1d6h

Wait, where are NYC taxis allowed to pickup people?

makeitdouble
0 replies
1d16h

If we're looking at pas examples, the reverse happens a lot more: rules and environments are made stricter with stronger passive enforcement to get rid of the infractions.

Setting automated speed traps where drivers don't respect the limit, physically forcing lower speeds where traps didn't work or closing whole streets to regular cars to get rid of the problem altogether.

The main issue isn't just the rules, and if the infrastructure has to be adapted as well, it's often cheaper to get rid of traffic than to rethink a system that work better in adversarial situations.

concordDance
0 replies
1d9h

there would be a lot of pressure on the legislature (by those who currently get away with it) to make the rules better.

Making perfect rules is basically impossible, they'd be millions of pages long to fully capture all the caveats and exceptions. The world is fractals complex and so we rely on intelligent prosecutors and police not bothering to pursue things that are illegal but fine.

It's just not worth it to try and make perfect laws.

clankyclanker
0 replies
1d19h

That seems optimistic. I would instead expect that those VIPs would be added to a table of folks who don't get tickets, codifying the current semi-formal process.

backtoyoujim
0 replies
22h28m

"Better" is doing a lot of heavy lifting. In my town they took down the automated red light ticket machines on many corners because people quit running the lights. So the machines weren't gathering monies in tickets yet they still cost the city to have them.

Better needs to mean something other than gather revenue. And it don't with automated things.

throwaway48476
0 replies
1d2h

Often when they are meticulously designed it is for revenue generation and not safety.

soerxpso
0 replies
1d14h

The loose laws you describe are a problem that needs to be solved regardless, because they allow for selective enforcement against specific people or demographics by police departments acting in bad faith. A law that everyone is technically breaking but is generally not enforced can be used to target ethnic groups, or individuals that a particular police officer has a personal vendetta against. It essentially turns the police into judges, because it gives them the guaranteed ability to get a conviction somehow against anyone they want.

I assume a way for any civilian to activate those laws against any other civilian would result in the legal code being cleaned up quite quickly.

jonny_eh
0 replies
23h50m

Insurance isn't the same as law enforcement, not even close.

TomK32
0 replies
1d12h

It's not laws that are bad, it's the infrastructure. Wide roads that give the driver the feeling that it is safe to drive a 60 mph when the sign says 45.

tamimio
24 replies
2d1h

It won’t work as you expect. Most of these drivers don’t have insurance. Second, you might make things worse, as now you have other Karen-like drivers who will eventually start threatening other people to report them, and that will escalate a situation from flipping a bird to a more dangerous situation. I sometimes watch dashcam rage videos on YouTube, and these drivers won’t care or even become more aggressive once told there’s a dashcam. This is not to mention the questionable results of ML that could report false positives.

IncreasePosts
21 replies
2d1h

It's not clear to me how you can claim most of these drivers don't have insurance.

Also. Nothing is stopping Karen's from reporting things right now. So what if they do? If you've done nothing wrong then the reviewer would just trash it. And probably put Karen's reports in the "immediately discard" pile in the future if she sends in frivolous claims all the time.

iwishiknewlisp
15 replies
1d22h

Around 10-30% of drivers in the United States don't have car insurance depending on the state.

It really depends on the state on how strict they are with car insurance. My state is very lax and they don't even really check at the DMV. The fine for not having car insurance is also only ~300 bucks and a 90 day license suspension and it only goes up slightly until like the 4-5 time you get caught. It just honestly doesn't make sense to have car insurance with the cost/risk that low. People who pay $50-100 bucks a month for car insurance are morons btw. You can insure yourself for like $30k, and you don't have $30k lying around paying $100 bucks a month is a terrible financial decision.

Insurance in general is a whole racket. Its literally only works due to the fact people on average pay more than they receive. "Oh but what if a bad thing happens" way to live your life, disregarding economics and averages.

Take out a personal loan or save the money you would spend on insurance evry year in a liquid asset (not cash that's almost as bad as insurance). Buying insurance is for npcs.

Only insurance that makes sense to have is insurance that is government subsidized, but that isn't because its better its because you are forced to pay part of its cost with your taxes. Enjoy getting screwed sideways by big government, who literally paya middle man to help ensure their citizens get healthcare instead of directly to the actual healthcare facilities. Insurance offers no service, its a worse scam than banks and credit cards combined.

Wytwwww
5 replies
1d21h

Right.. except the whole "argument" falls apart if we consider liability insurance. You can't force other people to have an extra $30k "just in case".

yuliyp
2 replies
1d20h

The point of mandated auto insurance is that a lot of people don't have an extra 30k, but we want even those without that extra 30k to be able to drive without those they might get into an accident with having their car damaged through no fault of their own and no way to get back the money from the person who caused it.

iwishiknewlisp
1 replies
1d3h

Makes no sense. Just have a better court system that makes people who cause damages to other's car have to pay a certain amount to that person per month. Like car insurance but there isn't a middle man and you only pay when you get in an accident.

yuliyp
0 replies
21h12m

Garnishment can be too slow to deal with the victim's liabilities, and even still has no guarantee of ever repaying the loss.

iwishiknewlisp
1 replies
1d2h

No, just make them pay out 30k in installments if they arw liable for something.

Or take them to court. The average person will lose hundreds of thousands of dollars in their lifetime from required insurance for all type of dumb things.

We need the government to force everyone to pay an organization that does nothing but hold money in case of accidents and then release it back. We need this because people are too cowardly and fearful, so they accept financial sodomy in exchange for a very small piece of mind.

If we are going to force insuramce on people, why not just go all the way and start forcing people to not eat junky food. It costs the us citizen way more to pay for the obese and unhealthy than anywhere close to the average american will pay for an accident without insuramce. Might as well start restricting all freedoms. Take my money take my freedom, here let me bend over. That is all of you. Paying 30-50% i taxes to the government accepting that they can force you to buy a service i.e. health insurance, car insurance.

Weak people vote for more government control, because thwy are cowardly rats. They desire being controlled, read anti-oedipus and you'll understand that your little brain enslaves itself in a false prison. The mind of weak disgusting borderline subspecies humans have formed a societal prison, where freedom doesn't exist. And the strong non mentally ill are forced to accept this prison or will be insulted saying "they don't common sense" or "aren't practical".

Enough talk, the fact that a lesser human like you actually gets to determine how I live my life is disgusting. The wardens of the prison are everyday "people" who should be culled like cattle. I don't dislike the system, because its an illusion. The system is just a bunch of lesser humans who have drank the koolaid, you don't drink it and they will call you crazy. Reminds me of how Uncle Ted fought against the prison after escaping from the mind control of mass psychosis, so we locked him up. I wish with all my heart God exists, so when all you die you are judged and you have your face smashed into reality and truth at a million miles per second. The few sane are forced to fit in the sea of the mental midgets, who exist not ambivalent to slavery, but as its enablers.

Wytwwww
0 replies
9h50m

The few sane are forced to fit in the sea of the mental midgets, > fact that a lesser human like you

What makes you think anyone wants to see your deranged diatribes?

You might feel better overall if you kept some thoughts like this to yourself (based on what you're saying seeking professional help might be a good idea as well).

ryandrake
2 replies
1d22h

It's shocking how many people are uninsured or underinsured. Plus, insurance minimums are absolutely ridiculous. Florida's minimum is $10K property damage, $10K personal injury, and they don't even require bodily injury liability. Total insanity. You crash into a Porsche full of doctors with that kind of coverage, and you're going bankrupt.

Most states have a minimum of around $25K for bodily injury liability. You can't even step foot into a hospital without paying $20K, so WTF is the minimum supposed to pay for exactly?

I guess a lot of drivers have so little to their name that they are judgment-proof and just don't care if they get sued for $2M.

whaleofatw2022
0 replies
1d18h

My state (MI) has an unlimited PIP option (used to be mandatory) but it's also no fault.

It also has lots of subtle penalties for not having insurance that bite people in the butt.

iwishiknewlisp
0 replies
1d3h

You can't even step foot into a hospital without paying $20K

I had a surgery and was in the hospital for a week. The out of pocket cost without insurance was lile 20-30 thousand if I remember correctly. And that is without coupons discount you usually get from cash payment. I used insurance, so I don't know what the discount wiuld be, but usually its like at least 10-20%.

I don't know what hospitals you got to, but 20K for a hospital visit is something I have never heard of.

jamiek88
1 replies
1d18h

The whole concept of calling people NPC’s is weird as fuck.

You aren’t a superior being, Derek.

Der_Einzige
0 replies
1d14h

The idea that we are all on “equal” footing in this world is even more asinine. Some folks are indeed the “main characters” and others are background filler. This is the only explanation for the “reality distortion fields” that larger than life personalities possess, well, outside of some SCP object style explanations…

RHSeeger
1 replies
1d21h

Insurance in general is a whole racket. Its literally only works due to the fact people on average pay more than they receive. "Oh but what if a bad thing happens" way to live your life, disregarding economics and averages.

That's literally the _entire_ point of insurance. You pay a little more than the average you're expected to actually need so that, in the event of a catastrophic event, your not on the hook for an amount that would destroy you financially. The fact that any sane person would think that you should expect to collect, on average, more from insurance than you pay into it... is baffling to me. Just plain math would show that's impossible.

iwishiknewlisp
0 replies
1d3h

I am saying insurance as a concept is stupid and anyone who has insurance is dumb except in few rare cases caused by government tipping the scales of the market.

The only thing baffling here us your reading comprehension bud.

You missed my entire point. You think I think that? Well, if I was on another website I would say something about you as a person about the type of human being who can't even understand what they are reading but then replies with an ignorant comment.

FireBeyond
1 replies
1d21h

You can insure yourself for like $30k, and you don't have $30k lying around paying $100 bucks a month is a terrible financial decision.

Certainly not here (Washington), you must have at least $60,000 AND it MUST be deposited with the DOL or State, unavailable to you, and you will not earn interest on it.

How do you propose people get to and from work to come up with $30-60K in savings that they can afford just to have sitting on account with the state?

Take out a personal loan or save the money you would spend on insurance evry year

You're generally paying around 9-12% on this personal loan. Say it's over 5 years (that's assuming you can afford the $1,300/month payment), you're paying $21,000 in interest.

Buying insurance is for npcs.

So your solution to NOT pay $50-100 a month for insurance is to pay a lender $1,300/mo for 5 years (assuming the amounts haven't increased then)? I don't think you've actually thought this through.

It literally would take you FIFTY YEARS to break even on this plan.

And in the meantime, you're only "insured" for the minimums, and if you're in a car accident at fault can easily be sued for more.

ndriscoll
0 replies
1d20h

If I'm reading RCW 46.29.560 correctly, you do get the interest, and I think you can shop around to hopefully get a decent rate on a CD to deposit?

That said, if you expect 10% returns on equities and 5% interest on a CD, you still need to be paying around $3k/year for insurance for that to be a good deal on expectation. It could make sense if interest rates are really high, or I suppose if you use a loan to buy a CD, you'd just be paying the spread. Seems like a lot of work and extra liability to maybe save a few hundred dollars when presumably anyone doing this would consider that a rounding error.

tamimio
2 replies
2d1h

I watched dashcam videos, and most times after accidents, it turned out that there is no insurance or, worse, wrong insurance information is given, only to be found later that it’s fake. Obviously, this is not real statistics, but something I observed.

nothing is stopping Karens from reporting things

True, but when you provide a platform for that, you incentivize the behavior. As mentioned below, you might start getting “points” in the app for these reports, just like how you report gas prices and get points that might win you free gas.

IncreasePosts
1 replies
2d

And likewise, you might get points deducted for wasting the reviewers time with a frivolous submission.

nosianu
0 replies
1d22h

The far more risky and dangerous - ostensibly for the original caller too - phenomenon of swatting exists despite all that. I would not be so sure about the quality of society's controls and feedback mechanisms.

mangosteenjuice
0 replies
1d21h

If we're talking about the Bay Area, anecdotally my experience is the percentage of uninsured drivers seems MUCH higher than other California metros.

I have used footage from my Tesla to get evidence and plate # that I could hand over to my insurance company and the police three times. 2 out of 3 were uninsured. This was during the past two years.

RHSeeger
0 replies
1d21h

If you've done nothing wrong then the reviewer would just trash it.

Or, more likely, they'll just see it as a report and raise your rates, because you've been reported by someone. Because they can; all they need is a reason.

Plus, I don't like the idea that someone I don't like could editorially create a video of it looking like I was driving irresponsibly, and then my rates go up. Then they do it again and again.

Example: When I leave in the morning, I take my daughter to the bus stop. I then wait for her bus to get there, she gets on, and I wait to turn left onto the road. The bus driver waves me on, to take my left before they let the other traffic go, so I don't have to wait for 20+ cars. I turn left and off I go. I expect it wouldn't be hard to edit a video of that to make it look like I pulled up to a bus picking up children and then drove through the bus stop signal illegally.

FormerBandmate
0 replies
1d23h

Honestly using it for actual serious violent crimes is way better than speeding

DriverDaily
0 replies
1d15h

Karen-like drivers who will eventually start threatening other people to report them,

That's an argument for automating the system, taking the biased human actor out of the process.

lr4444lr
24 replies
2d1h

I doubt it'd tell them any more than they already know. These drivers tend to have been given citations already.

The real money would be in giving civilians whose footage leads to a successful prosecution for moving violations a percentage of the fine. NYC already has something like this for people who catch too-long idling trucks and photograph/video record it.

mullingitover
8 replies
1d22h

The real money would be in giving civilians whose footage leads to a successful prosecution for moving violations a percentage of the fine.

I've heard lots of talk of civil war in this country, but this is the first serious plan I've seen for how to start one.

sowbug
6 replies
1d22h

Contracting out patrolling to private citizens would be a brilliant way to get around that pesky Bill of Rights.

Terr_
3 replies
1d21h

Can you elaborate on what would be bypassed by "patrolling?"

If the government was really contracting something out, then there's an argument to be made that it's on behalf of the government therefore it's government action and therefore it may be prohibited.

If nothing else, I'm pretty confident that my 3rd-amendment rights to not have soldiers crashing on my couch is safe from whatever my neighbor does with their dashcam.

blahedo
1 replies
1d14h

Can you elaborate on what would be bypassed by "patrolling?"

Well, we saw this play out in the last couple years in Texas—they set up their laws so that abortion enforcement was performed by civilians (i.e. not cops, not the government), specifically to throw sand in the gears of any countervailing judicial efforts (i.e. making it impossible to sue anyone to force them to stop it, because it's just a game of whack-a-mole at that point).

Terr_
0 replies
1d13h

in Texas—they set up their laws so that abortion enforcement was performed by civilians

A law [0] which, IMO, is a flat-out travesty of justice, kind of like if Texas Republicans had passed a law saying: "No private citizen shall be guilty of assault or liable in a civil trial for striking someone who spoke on the Ministry of Truth's totally voluntary prohibited ideas list."

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Heartbeat_Act

sowbug
0 replies
1d15h

I think you're drawing the right distinction. It's likely state action if a city or county literally delegated beat-cop duties to citizens with smartphones.

I'm more afraid of the slippery slope. I'm less confident courts find state action if a government is merely encouraging private citizens to supply evidence via a bounty system. Even if it's plain that this citizen-provided evidence is horribly biased, a court might say that the prosecuting entity has the responsibility to sift through the bias, and this responsibility is the difference between the state (the government) and non-state (the citizen who happens to submit only footage of people of a certain race).

But eventually the flow of money effectively deputizes the citizen, replacing beat-cop budgets with crowd-source bounties, and years of abuse pass before the courts acknowledge that it's actually been state action for quite a while.

(Interesting reading: Yick Wo v. Hopkins, which established that a fairly written law can still violate constitutional rights if the administration of that law is unjust. The City of San Francisco required permits for laundries, which is fine, but in actuality they never granted permits for people of Chinese descent. The US Supreme Court said nope. I could see similar reasoning applying here.)

lr4444lr
1 replies
1d21h

This is already done via traffic cameras, which are operated by contracted private outfits. Letting any civilian submit the footage, for a judge to review, would amount to a qui tam action. It's not unprecedented. Would the average citizen want to risk his identity being exposed if the defendant demands an audit of the footage? I couldn't say.

monkeywork
0 replies
1d19h

You've heard all the horror stories of HOA's ... yeah lets add those people into other area's of peoples lives.

barbazoo
6 replies
1d23h

Do insurers really know about citations?

tylerrobinson
3 replies
1d23h

Are you kidding? Absolutely. For moving violations you can look forward to the ticket itself plus increased insurance premiums.

monkeywork
2 replies
1d22h

I'm not an expert and I'm not one to get many tickets however my understanding is that they only look up individuals during renewal time or if you change policy or company.

If you got a speeding ticket on week 10 of the year there is unlikely to be any increase on your insurance on week 35.

Like I said this was my perhaps incorrect understanding of how it works here in Canada.

sib
0 replies
1d18h

This is not true in my experience in the US (thanks sneakily-placed rapidly-changing speed limit signs enforced against out-of-state plates in Utah!)

SoftTalker
0 replies
1d22h

This is my understanding as well but with net technology perhaps they are checking more often now.

atonse
1 replies
1d23h

I don't know how much detail they have but yes, insurers in the US do know if you've received a ticket for a moving violation (parking violations are irrelevant).

Many of them use solutions like LexisNexis Risk Solutions (which is like a 3rd party API that can return this data). How LNRS gets the data, I'm not sure.

For example, insurers also get data for stolen vehicles since it affects claims. I know this because in a previous (local government) job, I literally sat on calls about building an integration where we sent license plates of stolen cars (officially reported stolen to the police), if we wrote parking tickets for those cars, since we (another local gov agency) spotted the stolen car.

To me, even though I have strong feelings against privacy and surveillance, this felt like a totally pragmatic (and laser focused, it only affect cars that were currently designated stolen) use of the data.

grepfru_it
0 replies
1d16h

Worked in NYS auto insurance. The government provided us an APi which we could use to pull driver records. While we could pull anyone that we want via the api, we get audited and must show reason for the pulls (such as a newly insured driver or renewal etc).

I assume other states are similar

ryandrake
5 replies
1d22h

The real money would be in giving civilians whose footage leads to a successful prosecution for moving violations a percentage of the fine.

I don't know where you live, but around me, the police are so disinterested in traffic safety that roads have turned into a Mad Max free-for-all. Red light running, stop sign running, lack of signaling, weaving in and out of lanes, and general belligerence on the road. That and 90% of drivers are playing on their smartphones. Police departments could get infinite money by just opening their eyes and pulling nearly anyone over.

rcpt
2 replies
1d21h

California?

rbalicki
1 replies
1d21h

Also NYC, also Miami. I never got this impression in the Bay Area when I lived there (10 years ago)

y-curious
0 replies
1d20h

Enforcement of red light running has been de facto nil for the past 4 years until a couple of months ago. The cynic in me guesses that this is due to the election cycle.

monkeywork
0 replies
1d19h

That is typically a case of police trying to negotiate funding, it will go in a cycle once a contract gets renegotiated they will go on a blitz to show how effective the funding was and then over time let it start to slide again.

lr4444lr
0 replies
1d21h

In my area, this is one their most intense efforts - fines are very profitable to the municipality.

pixl97
0 replies
1d22h

The level of crazy driving to citations is rather low.

bsder
0 replies
1d20h

The real money would be in giving civilians whose footage leads to a successful prosecution for moving violations a percentage of the fine.

This is 200% in the wrong direction.

We should be removing the incentive for the justice system to benefit from collected money at all let alone expanding it.

"Incentivized" justice is gigantic moral hazard. The system will invent "crimes" in order to keep the money flowing.

croes
19 replies
2d1h

Next step, we all wear body cams and they identify people with inappropriate behavior.

For every mistake you get a point and with enough point a punishment.

Sounds familiar.

lurking_swe
7 replies
1d20h

you conveniently left out the fact that anyone driving a car or truck is driving a dangerous vehicle that can trivially kill or maim others. Driving is supposed to be a privilege, not a right. That comes with responsibility.

How you think this is the same as “being naughty while walking outside” is hilarious to me.

monkeywork
2 replies
1d19h

so if someone is carrying a baseball bat, a knife, or any other sort of weapon that can trivially kill or maim others they should be wearing the body cam?

lern_too_spel
1 replies
1d17h

They should expect to be filmed in public more than people not carrying weapons. This already happens.

monkeywork
0 replies
1d14h

Would you have that same viewpoint if the goal of the person with the camera was to setup outside of addiction centers, abortion clinics, strip clubs, casinos, etc and publically identify people anyone coming or going? I mean they are public so should they "expect" to be filmed or should there be some sense of privacy?

croes
2 replies
1d18h

Mobility is a right, that includes driving.

And walking comes with responsibilities too, a ruthless walker also endangers others, it's just harder to kill somebody by bumping into them, until you bump them in front of a car or train or down the stairs.

lurking_swe
0 replies
21h33m

It’s actually not a right. The proof is you need to pass a drivers test to get a drivers license. It’s not given to you at birth. I’d argue the tests are too easy in the US, but that’s a separate discussion.

I do not need a license to walk outside.

perhaps you’re thinking of “freedom of movement”? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_Unit...

NegativeK
0 replies
1d17h

I'm having trouble understanding the tone of your comment.

If it's not satire, driving as a right can be restricted (or even denied if you fail the driver's test) far more easily than walking. Because it's far more dangerous.

lurking_swe
0 replies
1d20h

however i see your point. i believe this is really a failure of police in our modern society. police don’t take driving incidents seriously! it’s their job after all.

tamimio
4 replies
2d1h

Yeah, I am personally against that as well. Enforcing laws is a police job, not the average citizen's, because they “supposedly” undergo certain training to do that. If everyone started acting like a police officer or reporting insignificant things, it would get chaotic, and it incentivizes people being hostile against each other. The only exception, in my opinion, is someone reporting something that’s substantially bad, like a homicide.

nox101
3 replies
1d23h

reporting is not the same as policing. Telling the police about a crime is the norm. Then the police police based on the report.

monkeywork
2 replies
1d22h

when you start offering monetary rewards for non-serious crime reporting you end up where the number of reports will outrun the resources of the reviewers and eventually have someone be required to "protest" the report and claim they are innocent putting a burden on them rather than the burden being on the authorities to prove you've done something wrong first.

Look at things like DMCA reporting on youtube and how it can be abused.

nox101
1 replies
1d22h

What's this non serious crime you speak of? It certainly not theft and traffic violations. theft ruins people's lives. traffic violations get people killed. Since 2010, the number of people dying in car accidents has gone up 50% per capita

monkeywork
0 replies
1d22h

Theft / traffic violations / jaywalking / curfew breaking / or public intoxication type crimes can be handled by police directly - having an incentive program to have people go around recording and reporting this sort of crime if not the sort of world I want to live in.

Yes I want those type of crimes punished and enforcement, no I do not want the masses to be working in an "all seeing eye" capacity for that to take place.

If you can't understand that the nuance there then I won't have much to discuss with you.

rbalicki
3 replies
1d21h

I'm honestly surprised that businesses in shady areas don't have ubiquitous cameras around their properties and signs that "just do your crime one block away, that's all I ask". (Presumably that invites vandalism and there are consequently practical issues, but has no one pulled this off?)

Sebb767
1 replies
1d20h

With cars, you have a license plate that will usually lead you to the owner. Identifying some random person, possibly with a hood, on noisy camera night vision is a lot harder; when you don't have a reasonably small pool of suspects, it's basically impossible.

Even if it would be possible to identify people with a combination of cell phone area warrants and/or by following all cameras around, this level of effort would be far too high (and too invasive) for small crimes like theft and vandalism.

xyzzy123
0 replies
1d18h

It's often a small pool of "suspects" though. Like "same group/person it was the last 3 times".

I think most camera operators make peace with the idea that randos / one offs probably can't be identified. What really aggravates people is repeated behaviour. Many people who install cameras particularly want to know "am I being targeted" vs "this is a random thing".

IncreasePosts
0 replies
1d16h

Most criminals will just cover their face to avoid CCTV.

gruez
1 replies
2d1h

I mean, that already kinda happens today? Everyone carries a camera in their pocket, and public freakouts are recorded and posted on the internet, leading to social consequences for the person in question.

monkeywork
0 replies
1d19h

Which I also think has been a net negative to the Western world.

Billy the dumbass in Gary Indiana does something stupid there he should be held to account by people from there, not posted online and receiving massive attention from the rest of the planet as people get off to their outrage porn online.

freejazz
17 replies
2d1h

If even a small subset of users did this, and insurers did something with this information, it would substantially disincentivize driving like a complete maniac.

People who drive like complete maniacs aren't doing so rationally. It's called "road rage" not "road reason."

gruez
7 replies
2d1h

Disagree. While "maniacs" could include road rage behavior (eg. brakechecking someone), it also arguably encompasses other risky behavior that's not obviously associated with "road rage", like speeding or aggressive weaving/lane changes.

freejazz
6 replies
2d1h

Road rage is but one example. No one brake checking someone else is doing it rationally. If someone was being rational, they would drive reasonably. They would forgive and forget, and they wouldn't do dangerous things. If drivers were worried about their rates going up, they would not do the very activities that put them in that risk in the first place.

gruez
5 replies
2d1h

If drivers were worried about their rates going up, they would not do the very activities that put them in that risk in the first place.

Not if they're underestimating the risk. For instance, if they think speed limits are instituted by clueless bureaucrats, or they think they're better than the average driver and therefore can drive more aggressively.

freejazz
2 replies
2d1h

Interesting how none of the risks you cite are an increase into their insurance premiums. In fact, what you point to are completely irrational thoughts that have nothing to do with the risks presented by undertaking those activities. It doesn't matter if speeds are set low or irrationally, the fee for a ticket is the same as is the insurance premium increase. Same with being better than another driver, it doesn't matter if you are or aren't better than another driver when they crash into you. Your premiums will increase the same. I appreciate you making my point for me.

gruez
1 replies
2d

In fact, what you point to are completely irrational thoughts that have nothing to do with the risks presented by undertaking those activities. It doesn't matter if speeds are set low or irrationally, the fee for a ticket is the same as is the insurance premium increase.

I can't tell whether you wanted an opportunity to rant about unjust speed limits in your area, or are trying to get in a smug "well ackushally \u{1F913}" response. While it's true that speed limits can be arbitrary and driving above it doesn't magically make you a dangerous driver, it's pretty obvious when people say "driving like a complete maniac", that's not the sort of behavior they're referring to. Thinking "speeding" and "driving like a complete maniac" means driving 1 mile over the speed limit in an artificially low speed limit zone is about the least charitable way of interpreting that statement.

Same with being better than another driver, it doesn't matter if you are or aren't better than another driver when they crash into you.

Again, I can't tell whether you're trying to be snarky. Being a better driver (however it's defined) might not fix your car when it gets into a crash, but I don't think anyone doubts that a professional driver is going to be able to avoid more accidents than the 90 year old granny that only drives every sunday to go to church, when put in the same situations.

I appreciate you making my point for me.

Whatever you say, champ.

freejazz
0 replies
1d13h

Thinking "speeding" and "driving like a complete maniac" means driving 1 mile over the speed limit in an artificially low speed limit zone is about the least charitable way of interpreting that statement.

I have no idea how you came up with the hypothetical of the speed limits, and then went further to assume I'm making the argument that driving 1MPH over the limit was a good example. That's a ridiculous approach to this conversation.

Again, I can't tell whether you're trying to be snarky. Being a better driver (however it's defined) might not fix your car when it gets into a crash, but I don't think anyone doubts that a professional driver is going to be able to avoid more accidents than the 90 year old granny that only drives every sunday to go to church, when put in the same situations.

But your example wasn't a professional driver, it was just someone who thinks they are a better driver. You were talking about people who were underestimating risks... how would that apply to a professional driver?

jrflowers
1 replies
1d23h

This is a good point. People that drive recklessly and risk personal injury, death, and imprisonment simply do so because they lack a proper disincentive. They would think twice when they envision themselves having to cut a a larger check to State Farm while lying in spinal traction.

gruez
0 replies
1d21h

When it comes to punishment, "swift and certain" trumps "harsh but sporadic". Having cars snitch on everyone else implements the former, "lying in spinal traction" implements the latter.

CamperBob2
3 replies
2d1h

In most cases, it's a devil's brew of "Speed limits that are set too low" and "Drivers that aren't taught how to use lanes properly."

freejazz
2 replies
2d1h

Surely you don't live in a city.

CamperBob2
1 replies
2d1h

As long as we're trading non sequiturs: when you think about why you don't want your phone to behave this way, you'll understand why I don't want my car to.

freejazz
0 replies
1d13h

It's not a non sequitur, it's the only context in which your comment could ever make sense. Even then, most likely is objectively wrong.

sodality2
2 replies
2d1h

I disagree - people do it because they are angry, and _also_ because they're unlikely to get caught. Far less people commit hit&runs, because there's a much higher chance of getting caught.

wil421
0 replies
2d1h

There are far less hit and runs than speeders or road ragers.

freejazz
0 replies
2d1h

It's not because they will get caught, it's because of the repercussions that would happen if they did.

rbalicki
0 replies
1d20h

My superficial understanding of research on deterring criminal behavior (so, I may be bullshitting) is that it's more effective to make the likelihood of getting caught high than making the punishment severe.

So this might be an effective (and cheap, compared to fiery auto crashes and arrests) way to discourage that behavior.

And if someone does not respond to the initial incentive, their insurance rates would continue to climb, so at some point in time they either end up uninsured (in which case, this sousveillance really ought to just inform the cops, but anyway, the opinion in this thread is that cops are useless, so YMMV) or fix their behavior.

bravetraveler
0 replies
2d1h

May not even have insurance, it's a coin toss

lolinder
10 replies
1d20h

It's so very HN that we get into fits about Google and Facebook and Apple and so on tracking us to make a buck, but the idea of an insurance company deputizing millions of cameras to perform mass surveillance to make a buck is suddenly okay because drivers that make us angry on the road get hurt by it.

The obvious answer to this proposal is that I believe that I have a right to not be monitored and penalized by autonomous algorithms, and I'm not ready to compromise on that right just because some people drive dangerously. All of the same arguments HN will reliably raise against algorithmic anything apply here, but apparently that all goes out the window when cars become involved.

unshavedyak
4 replies
1d20h

but the idea of an insurance company deputizing millions of cameras to perform mass surveillance to make a buck is suddenly okay because drivers that make us angry on the road get hurt by it.

I'd word it more like drivers who put me and others around me in danger should be punished for driving recklessly.

lolinder
3 replies
1d20h

Fair enough. After all, as we all know, the only reason to object to massive surveillance nets is if you're a criminal who has something to hide. Since I keep the law all that tracking and monitoring won't affect me.

try_the_bass
1 replies
1d18h

I mean, you do have to admit that by objecting to "massive surveillance nets", you're actively helping criminals who have things to hide, even if you don't.

If you think that's worth it, that's up to you, but you do have to admit that your position helps those with antisocial goals. You'll probably argue that "massive surveillance nets are inherently antisocial", but we both know that's not any more true than saying that "absolute freedom of speech is inherently antisocial". Arguably true, but wholly subjective.

lolinder
0 replies
1d18h

It's just an observation: this proposal aimed at penalizing bad drivers gets upvoted and generally supported, but proposals aimed at hunting down child pornographers get attacked as dangerous overreach. "I have nothing to hide" is an invalid argument for E2E encryption backdoors, but it's the correct way to think about a dashcam botnet.

It's just an interesting insight into the collective tech consciousness.

photochemsyn
0 replies
1d16h

Sorry about this, but a law was just passed making posting anything to a public-facing web site without prior government authorization a serious crime with a five-year forced-labor-camp sentence.

jonny_eh
1 replies
23h49m

to make a buck

And to make roads safer.

lolinder
0 replies
23h31m

So it's also okay for police to deploy large-scale facial recognition systems to help enforce the law and catch violent criminals, right? Or is there something special about cars or about insurance companies that makes them the exception?

globular-toast
1 replies
1d6h

The difference is it's in public. Google et al wants to get into your private life. Nobody is talking about watching you race cars on a private track.

lolinder
0 replies
1d6h

So you're okay with police having access to facial recognition cameras on every public street in order to better track down violent criminals?

gWPVhyxPHqvk
0 replies
17m

One of the first things you learn when you get your drivers license is that you don't have the same rights on public roads as you do off the roads, or in private (such as requirements for carrying up-to-date license, breathalyzers, etc).

morkalork
7 replies
1d23h

Where I live, speeding and red light cameras can only issue fines to the plate holder and don't affect the demerit points of the driver because they don't have evidence of who was driving the vehicle. I imagine it would go the same way with insurance. Unless a cop pulls the person over and gets their ID, tough luck.

lalaithion
6 replies
1d23h

The comment you’re responding to is postulating enforcement via higher insurance costs. If insurance gets ~20 reports of someone running a red light, maybe they’ll double the cost to insure that person.

morkalork
5 replies
1d23h

But that's the catch, using ML to scan a plate doesn't confirm who was driving.

hermannj314
1 replies
1d22h

For insurance underwriting, would it need to? "People whose household receive X anonymous tips" is a cohort that either does or does not have more insurable risk, and if it does correlate then you can make an attempt to adjust premiums accordingly.

SoftTalker
0 replies
1d22h

The driver doesn’t matter when it comes to insurance. It’s the owner of the car who holds the policy.

baby_souffle
1 replies
1d22h

Nor does it actually confirm that the plate _matches_ the car.

Otherwise i'd spend some time 3d printing something that looks a LOT like my neighbors license plate and wait until 1 AM and just blow the same red light over and over and over.

whaleofatw2022
0 replies
1d18h

Idk about your state, but many have a 'swizzle' vertical or two that I'm pretty sure is to assist readers and detect fakes...

bobbylarrybobby
0 replies
1d21h

It doesn't matter, right? It's the vehicle that is insured

pdar4123
6 replies
1d21h

Seems like a great idea. The police should do this… bring back red light cameras and automated speed traps.

duped
4 replies
1d21h

Red light cameras have perverse incentives that have led to municipal corruption and made intersections more dangerous.

jclulow
3 replies
1d20h

Can you perhaps expand on the incentives and the mechanism of increased danger?

lolinder
0 replies
1d20h

The goal of a red light camera is ostensibly to make an intersection safer, but the fact that the city gets money when people get tickets incentivizes them to actually keep the intersection difficult to navigate correctly. They lose money if they adjust timings to be more appropriate for the situation or if they make the lights more visible or if they replace the light with a roundabout.

It also penalizes driving behaviors that are objectively not very dangerous far more harshly than a human police officer would—a lot of the profit from a red light camera comes from rolling right turns on red, which is very often a perfectly safe behavior that actually helps traffic move more smoothly (for example, when you technically have a red but there's a left turn crossing in the opposite direction providing complete cover for your move).

edmundsauto
0 replies
1d15h

San Diego dropped most of their red light cameras in 2013, this article from the mayor talks about the perception issues: https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/2013/02/01/san-diego-dr...

From what I recall, the real reason was that Lockheed owned and operated the cameras, took a cut of revenue, and was found to be changing the settings to issue more tickets.

duped
0 replies
1d20h

Sure, when the cameras start turning into a source of revenue then the city has an incentive to adjust the timing of the lights to maximize revenue and not minimize harm. This has happened (notably, the city of Chicago reduced the time of yellows and it led to more tickets and more accidents).

The other thing to remember is that governments don't operate red light cameras. They hire contracting businesses to install and operate them, and normally instead of paying a fixed rental/maintenance rate for the cameras those companies typically get paid a fraction of the fines. That means the designer/operator of the camera doesn't have much incentive to make the camera accurate or maximize safety, but to maximize how many cars it can issue tickets to (whether or not they're actually breaking the law or not).

When you take that to the extreme, the red light camera companies will even lobby local politicians to install more of them, and advertise them not as a tool for safety but for revenue. In some cases they've straight up bribed mayors and city officials with kickbacks from the ticket revenue.

All told, red light cameras are pretty shitty at making roads safer. What we really need are narrower roads with fewer lanes and smaller cars, but that's systemic. If we want to make specific intersections safer you can park a traffic enforcement officer at the intersection which will do more than any camera will.

hightrix
0 replies
1d2h

Sure, only if they take a look at every speed limit in America and readjust them to be realistic for modern cars.

jrflowers
3 replies
1d23h

What is stopping some small percent of drivers from installing cameras and using ML to identify cars driving dangerously (e.g. speeding, running reds, changing multiple lanes at once, etc.), and when their license plate is identifiable, finding and informing their insurance company?

What has stopped you from doing that personally?

rbalicki
0 replies
1d20h

I would! But I have a job and side projects that take up my time.

porphyra
0 replies
1d23h

Nobody has developed that yet and OP might not have the skills to do so, but if an easy-to-install github repo were available then the lowered barrier to entry might make it possible. Theoretically, Teslas already know how fast every car around them is going and how they are driving, as evidenced by the 3D "FSD visualization", but I am guessing that piping this information out to rat out the reckless drivers is going to be super hard.

IncreasePosts
0 replies
1d16h

I've done it. When i saw a driver run a red light (intentionally, they slowed down, and then gunned it through) and almost killed 3 people legally crossing the street.

It took a while though. Maybe 10 minutes in total to pull the dashcam clip and upload it to YouTube.

eddd-ddde
3 replies
1d21h

I have 100% thought about a drivers rating system where users rate other drivers.

Even better, not only notify insurance companies, but notify other drivers that the idiot in front of them is dangerous so they can react.

steelframe
0 replies
1d15h

not only notify insurance companies

I can immediately think of half a dozen ways this would be abused.

The clique of brats in their daddies' Teslas at Sammamish High School bully the unpopular kid.

Black guy who drives through predominately white neighborhoods in the deep south.

Prius with a Harris/Walz bumper sticker in eastern Idaho.

Need I go on?

rbalicki
0 replies
1d21h

The touch screen in a Tesla could easily surface such information about the cars around them. That's great

johnisgood
0 replies
1d7h

You should watch Black Mirror.

steelframe
0 replies
1d15h

My car doesn't spy on me. I've pulled the Data Communications Module fuse.

rbalicki
0 replies
1d20h

This seems to indicate that it shares data on the car itself, not on other drivers :/

sschueller
2 replies
1d23h

In Switzerland it would be the law preventing that.

Running ML on public footage of people who did not consent is a huge no-no.

Dashcams are already a problem and technically illegal although tolerated. The footage can't generally be used on court.

moate
0 replies
1d22h

Swiss privacy law is absolutely insane to me both for the protection it provides (good) but also for the protection it provides(bad). I guess all tools are weapons in the right hands.

Der_Einzige
0 replies
1d14h

Very very good, and I want more societies which give a bigger middle finger to the karens of their world.

monkeywork
1 replies
1d22h

Just tossing a product link into the discussion without any context isn't overly useful - why are you recommending (or are you) and why should I be clicking on that?

joshu
0 replies
11h0m

They were built to do the things in the comment that I replied to.

hnburnsy
2 replies
1d21h

Genuine question: What is stopping some small percent of drivers from installing cameras and using ML to identify cars driving dangerously (e.g. speeding, running reds, changing multiple lanes at once, etc.), and when their license plate is identifiable, finding and informing their insurance company?

GM is already doing this, look it up.

rbalicki
1 replies
1d21h

Do you have more info about this?

andylynch
2 replies
2d1h

Insurers may not be the best recipients given most of those things are criminal matters.

In my country, most police forces accept dashcam evidence from other road users, and will prosecute on it. It’s seen be the police as a great road safety tool.

paulryanrogers
1 replies
2d1h

Is there a risk such video could be fabricated to frame someone for a crime they didn't commit, or even that never happened?

johnisgood
0 replies
1d7h

With deepfake AI? Absolutely. You do not even need AI, you just need to time it just right (or crop the video).

0xcafefood
2 replies
2d1h

It would probably have "disproportionate impact."

It's really the job of police forces to act on maniac drivers. And they stopped doing so in 2020 for the same reason.

oxide
0 replies
2d1h

I lived in east Oakland for awhile, I'm pretty sure that driving stolen cars and torching them afterward don't give a fuck about auto insurance rates. The people who are driving like that on the 580 or @ 90th & Bancroft probably are uninsured as is.

Do you really think everyone is just insured because it's the law? If so, you're fairly naive. Try leaving the bubble you live in now and then. Oakland cops stopping responding to anything less than murder at lot sooner than 2020 lmao.

IncreasePosts
0 replies
2d1h

Disproportionate impact is already acceptable with insurance, because they know for example that the average young woman drives safer than the average young man. And charges them as such.

tgsovlerkhgsel
1 replies
1d23h

In Europe, this would most likely be considered a violation of various privacy rules (specifics depend on country, but could include criminal penalties for the person doing this).

In the US, I could totally see that happening.

mig39
0 replies
1d23h

Technically, dashcams are illegal in some European countries.

rbalicki
1 replies
1d20h

Responses here seem to not take into account:

- elasticity of laws. If all of a sudden every well-to-do law-abiding doctor, engineer and lawyer gets a fine on their daily commute for speeding 5 mph over the limit, there's going to instantly be a lot of pressure to change the speed limit to something reasonable.

- the amount of absolutely insane, dangerous behavior on the highways (people weaving in and out at 100 mph, etc.). It may be tough for an insurance company to act on a tip that someone changed lanes without using their blinkers, it certainly won't be tough if there's video evidence of them going 100 mph.

- the fact that insurance companies (presumably) do not need to know the identity of the driver to raise rates. If your car is regularly being driven by your brother at 100mph, it's still your insurance that's going to pay if he gets in an accident.

- while the police sound like they've given up on enforcing any traffic laws, it's in the insurance company's financial interest not to insure dangerous drivers. (And while that's sad, maybe private sousveillance is better than anarchy. People can have differing opinions.)

kelnos
0 replies
1d9h

If your car is regularly being driven by your brother at 100mph, it's still your insurance that's going to pay if he gets in an accident.

Not if your brother isn't listed as an insured party on your insurance. The insurance company will tell you to pound sand in that case. And if your brother is on your insurance, and you're paying for it and giving him a free ride, that's on you.

And while that's sad, maybe private sousveillance is better than anarchy. People can have differing opinions.

::raises hand:: We shouldn't accept either. Private surveillance is not the solution to anarchically poor enforcement.

paradox460
1 replies
1d22h

Back when I used to cross the San Mateo bridge frequently, I'd see the same group of drivers routinely driving dangerously and breaking multiple laws. I had dashcam footage. I once called up CHP and asked if they wanted it. They politely told me where to shove it

The police don't want to enforce the laws that are written. They don't even pull over drivers without license plates.

kenjackson
0 replies
1d21h

Problem is there is no punishment to the criminals. Why risk your life/job just to have the criminal released hours later.

I was a big believer of police reform, but realized the whole system was broken and police are just a symptom. And most actors are actually behaving somewhat rationally.

The sad part is criminals are finally realizing this. I have a cousin who hangs with a “crowd” and it’s amazing how prolific and bold some are. And how many people know about the crimes and no one really says anything. And apparently police know about a lot of it too, but apparently a case that prosecutors will take is an exceptionally high bar.

kelnos
0 replies
1d10h

Oof, conditioning people to tattle on their neighbors. That's never gone horribly wrong... /s

_moof
1 replies
1d22h

As much as I think I'd love to be able to write traffic tickets during my commutes, I don't think anyone wants to live in a world where everyone is a cop.

I think you'll find too that a lot of people think laws are for other people. My speeding is totally justified.

Swizec
0 replies
1d22h

As someone who speeds on highways (but not in cities/towns), I wish more people sped. The left lane is for crime, get out of the way.

39896880
1 replies
1d20h

Informing the insurance company… how? Everything done by a large corp like an insurer has a specific workflow. There is no form to upload a video of someone behaving badly. Emailing some rando at Geico with an mp4 is going to be met with total indifference because the corporate drone answering whatever emails aren’t autoreplied or spamcanned will have no process by which to respond

froggit
0 replies
1d18h

There's no way insurance companies haven't already done the cost-benefit analysis for implementing a way to take videos from randos and turning it into actionable rate hikes. If it were favorable to their bottom lines there'd already be a link to "submit evidence" on every insurer's home page.

xattt
0 replies
2d1h

ALPR units are used the license plate recognition already.

throwaway2037
0 replies
1d7h

Maybe insurers will pay bounty for it. Mostly, you want to get rid of dangerous drivers, not just charge them more!

rootusrootus
0 replies
1d22h

Given the potential for abuse, the insurance company probably can't really do much aside from writing a letter to the driver saying someone observed them driving dangerously.

Probably the letter should be more specific, include pictures, and it should not be entirely anonymous. You should be able to find out if someone is trying to make trouble for you.

It might not even be legally possible anyway. Insurance companies have a lot of regulation.

renewiltord
0 replies
2d1h

They might have been in the past and it's not a bad idea for a data aggregator company to enable crowdsourcing to make the data palatable to insurers but AI video is advanced enough to obscure the plates and change the car model slightly.

rayiner
0 replies
1d23h

We should do this for HOV violators.

magnetowasright
0 replies
1d17h

The proliferation of dash cams and the (...paltry) threat of having footage of bad behaviour put on the internet, or more importantly, having proof of what happened in an incident/accident to be able to pass onto insurance or police (where there's consequences from determining fault, theoretically) hasn't magically stopped people driving like homicidal maniacs, has it?

There's a million reasons why a dystopic snitch on your neighbours program isn't practical, as others have highlighted. I love the idea that insurance companies would be afraid of backlash lol. There's also easier options like I imagine asking car manufacturers to hand over data collected on driver behaviour would be. Don't US insurers already collect data like that from willing customers? Why not get that data from all customers regardless of consent? We've seen time and time again that most car manufacturers will throw all the data they can at whichever corporation asks for it. Even lower tech than that, speed and red light cameras have existed for a long time and they work on vehicles regardless of how many touchscreen tablets have been glued into it. Stupid(er) comment time: even lower tech again, the potential threat of gun violence in road rage incidents doesn't seem to disincentivise driving like a homicidal maniac, judging by how much worse US dash cam captured accidents seem to be compared to those from Europe or Australia. Maybe that's more to do with how many giant yank tanks there are on US roads and how much more effective they are at obliterating other road users and the sense of safety that comes with driving such huge things?

Jokes aside, road safety is a complex problem and insurance companies have other ways to protect their interests with significantly less effort.

m463
0 replies
1d20h

It's an ROA, like an HOA, but for everywhere.

I wonder if folks could wear an emitter mask to prevent identification of their face? (like a hockey mask but covered in bright IR LEDs to confuse cameras)

lofaszvanitt
0 replies
22h13m

People already police others, there is no need for a complete psycho society where everyone is a potential snitch. Plus, a few minutes of speeding and shouting helps to calm people. Now imagine that people cannot even use their expensive car for speeding... where will people vent their aggression?

kragen
0 replies
1d23h

you could report anyone you disliked, as long as you could find out what their car looked like, even if they weren't speeding or running reds etc. convincingly editing the traffic light color in a video doesn't even require artificial neural networks. trump voters in progressive communities, for example, or progressive voters in right-wing communities

kjkjadksj
0 replies
1d23h

The same thing that allows drivers to run red light cameras and cover their face with their hand

hindsightbias
0 replies
1d20h

What makes you think the drivers who drive that way have insurance?

globular-toast
0 replies
1d6h

That was my first thought upon reading the headline. Did your car witness a crime? Yes, literally hundreds every time it hits the road. Most drivers break the law every single journey. Many do it egregiously.

croes
0 replies
2d1h

So they still drive like maniacs but without insurance.

alexvitkov
0 replies
1d22h

"The Snitch-mobile"

akira2501
0 replies
1d20h

it would substantially disincentivize driving like a complete maniac.

You are presuming that the manics are otherwise legally entitled to drive and have valid insurance. It should be no surprise to learn that they, very largely, do not.

They already don't care about your incentive system.

Aurornis
0 replies
1d20h

This is an idea that only sounds good when you imagine it being applied to the drivers you dislike.

When people started getting higher insurance rates because a vigilante dashcam operator caught them driving 68 in a 65 three different times or because they only slowed to 1MPH instead of 0MPH at a 4-way stop, then it wouldn't seem like such a good idea any more.

23B1
0 replies
2d1h

Great question.

There is nothing stopping them.

Which is why a privacy amendment must be passed and enforced with ruthless abandon if we don't want to pave the way for – and eventually become – an Orwellian panopticon in the service of authoritarians.

harmmonica
81 replies
1d21h

As a somewhat regular user of Waymo, these types of conversations seem like they're going to be more and more in the (sorry!) rearview mirror because we won't own the car nor the cameras that are recording the world as we "drive" around.

That's not to say that we should give up fighting for some level of privacy even when we don't own the cars, but seems more likely that legislation would be passed that forces the vehicle owners/operators (Alphabet in the Waymo case) to blur peoples' faces. Then of course the state (police/gov/etc.) will clamor for a backdoor key that will unlock the blurred faces/bodies if a crime is suspected to have occurred. Speaking of, I wonder if Waymo already does blur people when they capture them through Waymo rides? I can't seem to find mention of it online.

This commentary assumes self-driving cars are here to stay and become the de facto way we drive instead of driving ourselves. Still not sure how their adoption plays out over time because, at least in the US, people will fight against mandates to use self-driving cars because it compromises their freedom (note that the freedom crowd (no judgment) will be saying that, at first, because they will consider it their right to drive themselves, but once the privacy implications are clear there will be full-on (figurative?) wars fought over self-driving). Guessing a politician, in Texas or another red state, will sooner than later enshrine the right-to-drive-oneself into the state constitution.

rblatz
21 replies
1d20h

I think this plays out where it becomes a luxury to drive oneself. Over the next 10-15 years it looks like self driving will continue to advance and will likely become safer than the alternative.

Once that happens insurance companies will start charging more for people that drive themselves compared to people that let the car drive.

I can see some states outlawing that practice. Then it’s left to see who is still underwriting insurance in those states.

vineyardmike
12 replies
1d15h

I think this plays out where it becomes a luxury to drive oneself. Over the next 10-15 years it looks like self driving will continue to advance and will likely become safer than the alternative.

I think this is a long way away and will vary geographically.

For a long time, self driving cars will be more expensive because they’ll have expensive sensors on it. Not many people will want a $100K self driving car instead of a $30k Camry. This means the cost-per-mile goes up unless utilization rate goes up. The most effective way to do that is make it a Taxi.

The natural result of self-driving-taxis is that the people least likely to take a taxi but most dependent on a car (rural Americans) will drive themselves still and those cars will be cheaper because they’re sensor free. That will never be a luxury product.

In urban environments though, the poorest people will continue to own cars but be slowly priced out by insurance. But maybe insurance won’t go up for manual cars, but down for self driving cars. They’ve already priced the cost of manual driving, which won’t get more dangerous as less cars are human. States might try to protect them, but I think politicians and citizens will be persuaded by “safety” over “poor people need to afford transportation”.

adrianN
4 replies
1d14h

I wouldn’t be surprised if safety requirements will gradually tighten until every car will need most sensors. Manufacturers have an interest in selling expensive difficult to manufacture cars and politicians like to reduce traffic fatalities.

sokoloff
3 replies
1d7h

The average age of a car in the US is 12.6 years old right now. History shows that we’ve not forced safety items into existing cars. (I have one car where I would be permitted to pass safety inspection without seat belts (any) because it wasn’t originally equipped. [I have chosen to add them.])

adrianN
1 replies
7h22m

After the 15 year mark, give or take, it becomes a luxury to maintain the car. There will hopefully be a point in the nearer future where ICE will become a luxury.

sokoloff
0 replies
6h29m

If I understand your point about luxury correctly, I agree that there’s a crossover point, but I think it’s more like 35 years (1990 model year or earlier) rather than 15 (2010 MY or earlier).

I don’t think many people driving a 20 model years-old 2005 (including myself) are treating maintaining that car like it’s a classic car hobby.

throwaway48476
0 replies
1d3h

12.6 and rising.

grecy
3 replies
1d4h

Not many people will want a $100K self driving car instead of a $30k Camry

What you said is true, but does not reflect reality.

Today The Model 3 is ~$40k, and once self driving is "solved", there is no reason a ~$40k car won't be capable of it.

vineyardmike
2 replies
1d1h

Sure, but that’s assuming the technology on a Tesla Model 3 actually is capable of safely self driving. Today, Waymo is the clear winner, and the equipment costs a lot more than a Tesla.

I know Elon/Tesla can be a charged topic, but teslas don’t self drive today. It might be true, but I don’t think we can assume they’re capable with just a software update based on the info we have today.

grecy
1 replies
1d

Waymo is the clear winner, and the equipment costs a lot more than a Tesla.

I don’t think that is true. What costs a lot more? Lidar?

Call it $10k more on the very high end. So you have fully self driving cars for $50k. A very long way from your $100k

vineyardmike
0 replies
20h52m

The LIDAR sensors are significantly more expensive than 10k. There are a lot of them on it too. Additionally, I expect that the GPUs or other compute requirements are an extra 10+k at least.

While I'm sure the prices can come down with mass production, the estimated BOM for a Waymo are speculated to be >200k per vehicle. Maybe we can that down to 100K, but I'd be very suspicious of a 50k vehicle anytime soon.

rblatz
2 replies
1d3h

Tesla Model 3 is right below that $30,000 mark, Tesla FSD does the bulk of my driving today. I think your core premise is flawed, it will be cheaper and sooner than you anticipate which will alter the conclusions you’ve come to.

throwaway48476
1 replies
1d3h

Teslas 'FSD' is not the commonly understood HOOTL self driving.

rblatz
0 replies
18h15m

And? Just a few years ago waymo had safety drivers. I really only intercede when I want to take a route different than the Tesla routes me on, or I want to be a bit more aggressive in highway traffic.

Seems like 10 years isn’t too out there for affordable self driving vehicles considering we have one working today at the high end of cost and another getting close at the lower end of cost.

bamboozled
4 replies
1d17h

Won't happen unless tradesmen, engineers, etc can use self-driving cars, which will e awkward when you need to park up onto a curb or something to inspect a downed power line.

rblatz
3 replies
1d2h

That is what .5% of all drivers that need to drive on a curb to inspect a power line? I’m not sure what your point even is here?

internet101010
2 replies
1d1h

Fourth of July, kids sports that take place outside, etc. are all regular occurrences where people need to be able to easily go up onto a curb and park in the grass.

rblatz
1 replies
18h6m

Seems like you’re grasping at straws to find weird edge cases that don’t at all preclude a mostly self driven future. I don’t think these cars will be made without steering wheels, or a mechanism to control the vehicle directly.

But I bet they get a report of how often you manually drive and if you cross a specified threshold your rate increases.

Edit: Also why would you need to park on grass! Hop out of the car and it will park itself wherever in a nearby lot, or just drives around until you need it.

bamboozled
0 replies
16h11m

How do you call this grasping at straws exactly ?

Your suggestion that all the cars should just e driving around waiting for you is fanciful, imagine something like a live music event with 100k people? Will there just be 100k cars circling the venue waiting for pick everyone up ?

throwaway22032
2 replies
1d17h

I agree with you that driving manually will become a luxury but it's important to recognise that it will manifest as a discount on self driving, not a surcharge on manual.

The only way in which I can see a surcharge on manual happening is if it becomes so incredibly rare that it becomes a niche product, or if there ends up being a bias e.g. it turns out that the pool of manual drivers is now biased towards people who like to drive in a risky manner.

If anything, in a competitive market that is able to price individual risk appropriately, the cost of manual insurance for you or I should be lower in the self driving world, because most other drivers are now "superhuman" and thus we should get into fewer accidents.

azthecx
1 replies
1d16h

And historically has this competitive market manifested itself? Or have insurance companies instead vastly changed from their 'distributed risk' origins and instead act more as corporate entities with profits at the forefront, where the moment you actually use them the cost of being insured rises?

throwaway2037
0 replies
1d7h

I don't think insurance companies need to distribute risk from auto insurance. They do, however, need it for property insurance. Floods, earthquakes, and fires and level thousands of homes quickly. There isn't any risk like that for driving.

hn_throwaway_99
19 replies
1d10h

This commentary assumes self-driving cars are here to stay and become the de facto way we drive instead of driving ourselves.

This seems like an extremely myopic "tech bubble" take to me. I'm trying to find a way to put this so that it doesn't sound like an attack, but have you been to suburban or rural areas outside of places like SF, NYC or Phoenix? Being reliant on third party transportation, on roads the are often in disrepair with poor signage, is a nonstarter for probably most of the US population.

grecy
6 replies
1d7h

is a nonstarter for probably most of the US population.

I disagree.

I grew up in Rural Australia, lived in the Yukon and have driven to many of the world's most remote and undeveloped countries.

You are saying "Self driving cars will NEVER work in <this specific case>"

When what you mean to say is "Self driving cars will first work in the easy cases, and then years later will work in more and more cases until they eventually work everywhere."

FWIW, people said exactly the same thing when the automobile came around and horses were the best transport. Of course automobiles didn't work well in places with no gas stations or very nasty horse tracks for many years. But the years will always roll on, and things will change.

chias
4 replies
1d4h

While self driving cars are provided by private companies, self driving cars will first work in the profitable cases, and then years later will still only work in the profitable cases.

grecy
1 replies
1d4h

The Model 3 and Model Y will eventually be self driving... any anyone that wants to can simply buy one.

Obviously many other manufacturers will also sell consumer cars that can completely drive themselves.

Even a person who lives in Tok, Alaska will just be able to buy one and then sleep in the car as it drives down the Alaska Highway*

* Trust me, once you've driven it a handful of times it's a chore.

dageshi
0 replies
1d2h

Having given this some thought recently, I don't actually think anyone will sell self driving cars for a long time, if ever.

I don't think there will be a big bang moment where self driving is suddenly here and it works everywhere. Instead I think it looks like what waymo is doing now, self driving taxi services that expand to cover specific regions and then expand more as they begin to handle more edge cases and more extreme weather.

By the time self driving is actually to the standard needed to sell it with a car a younger generation will probably have grown up using self driving taxi's and wonder what they need to own a car for.

seanmcdirmid
0 replies
1d1h

With scale and time, the tech gets cheaper and the number profitable cases continues to increase. As long as it isn’t human labor intensive (and it’s not), they can expand profitable territory almost indefinitely.

berdario
0 replies
1d

As long as the expensive bits continue to be externalized (i.e. publicly funded), I think that there might not be any cases that aren't profitable.

The expensive bits being:

- road maintenance

- theft and vandalism policing

Surely, once Waymo covers most cities, the marginal cost of getting one extra waymo car on the road should be substantially lower than a Bus (and maybe even a Marshrutka?)

...And then, once you have the cars on the road, to avoid increasing waiting times too much (which will lead users to prefer alternative transport methods, walking, cycling, etc.) you need to have slack/extra-capacity in any area that you're serving.

This means that I don't see why Waymo might not expand even in remote mountain towns: they are not going to have a massive fleet, but keeping one or two cars there shouldn't have a different overhead than for a Waymo car serving a city.

(the only caveat might be in making sure that the overnight depot/parking lot won't be too far from the area served).

I think that would be pretty cool, if it means that people won't have to drive themselves anymore... but I'm also quite concerned about the consequences this might have for public transport: if its usage numbers falls, and thus public investments in it stops, entire small town might end up depending on extremely few (one?) self-driving taxi providers.

hn_throwaway_99
0 replies
1d

I don't think I really disagree with you, but I think the economic models and tech that would be required for people in more remote areas (in the US at least) to solely rely on 3rd parties for transportation is so far in the future that it's basically unknowable from our current position.

That is, for many areas, I don't think it's just a case of the tech improving bit-by-bit and taking over more and more areas. I think that will happen in some ways, but take for example a friend of mine who lives in Pennsylvania. Where he lives is a far-out suburb, but he often drives out to rural areas on the weekend to go camping, or he drives long distances to various client sites. Forget the tech, I just don't see how an economic model of a self-driving car company would make these kinds of trips feasible anytime in the foreseeable future.

seanmcdirmid
4 replies
1d1h

This is fun because until the last couple of decades, private transportation wasn’t very common in China at all, people simply didn’t own their own cars and taxis were (and still are) ubiquitous even in small rural towns (though they might be breadbox vans to supplement shared minibuses). Almost everyone was relying in third party transportation and even today most still are.

And really, this kind of thing was common in most countries and turned out America (along with Canada, Australia) are the odd ones out with almost ubiquitous private car ownership in most of its area.

I have no idea how self driving taxis will change the USA, but I rode in my first Waymo last week on a trip to SF and it felt very real. Having lived in a country where I took a taxi to work everyday, I can totally see that life working for me (since I already lived it anyways).

majormajor
1 replies
1d

Private car ownership has not been unusual in developed countries. There is a reason so many large car manufactures are not American, after all. It's not just to sell to people in NA and Australia.

What's different about the US and those other places is that far more large cities were built after private automobiles were common. There are cars everywhere in both countryside and cities in Italy, say, but there is ALSO more walkability and transit because the cities were there first (and even there, there are cities like Florence that didn't invest in rail for decades before starting to build some more light rail again very recently).

China is something of an odd one out for development patterns because of the much higher levels of state control.

What I don't really see is places voluntarily giving up point-to-point private transit after having it as an easy option for generations. Places where even the super-wealthy have turned in their private cars and drivers and take the bus with everyone else. I think the market that self-driving cars could potentially capture over mass transit is exactly those people who would rather have a private point-to-point experience. Which can be an overlapping set with the people who would also be willing to use mass transit if it was "good enough", in addition to the people who actively dislike mass transit. The total pool of users is very large.

seanmcdirmid
0 replies
23h57m

Nothing really replaces good mass transit. But in a rural town a taxi is often the best you can manage as an alternative. Even in cities, taxis fill in gaps that make it possible to live without cars and use mass transit more. Like a trip can involve a taxi to a station then a train ride then a taxi from destination station to your actual destination.

hn_throwaway_99
1 replies
23h56m

The reason it "works" in rural China is people largely don't drive places, at least not the way Americans do.

Lots of tech folks love to shit on "car-culture" in the US, and while I agree it has resulted in really crappy urban design for a lot of US cities, you can't ignore that a lot of people love their cars because it gives them a ton of freedom. People like being able to go off at a moment's notice, independently, and drive long distances.

America may be an "outlier", but that still doesn't mean that it's reasonable to think we'll move from where we are now to getting rid of our cars because that's how China does it.

seanmcdirmid
0 replies
18h7m

Taxis give you most of that for inner city travel. I don’t mean American taxis, I mean Chinese taxis that are everywhere. If that was a fleet of self driving cars, then it really would be like wait one minute for a taxi if you aren’t going somewhere on peak.

My point, though, isn’t how China can show America how to do things, just that American car culture is unusual and unlikely to apply to most of the rest of the world. There are also costs of dumb decisions to consider, which is going to affect the competitiveness of our cities long term (Shanghai doesn’t have to make the same stupid decisions that Denver did, and eventually it just isn’t worth doing business in cities with crappy transit infra), and eventually some more optimal norm is going to affect even the USA.

WrongAssumption
1 replies
1d8h

They are including suburbs in that number, so that doesn’t really counter the post you are responding to.

gcanyon
0 replies
1d6h

As I just replied, counting just the largest 100 cities covers more people than the rural population.

ghaff
1 replies
1d5h

Most of the US population is urban per the census bureau but a lot of that is spread out suburbs and exurbs. I’m “urban” between many acres of orchards and conservation land. Depending on third party transportation day to day would be utterly impractical.

Dylan16807
0 replies
19h47m

In a typical suburb, providing a 2-3 minute wait would require one idling self-driving car per hundreds of houses. I think that sounds practical.

harmmonica
0 replies
1d1h

No attack taken. Fair question. I'm in a bubble at the moment because I'm located in one of the few areas where Waymo is available (think that qualifies as a (tech) bubble any way you look at it). But I feel like experiencing this tech answers a lot of questions about what is and isn't possible (or better yet what is and what will be possible with self-driving cars).

Also, I work in a very rural environment that couldn't be more hostile to self-driving cars, at least as I thought about them before riding in Waymos (an example: where I stay when I work there I have to give people turn by turn directions because if you rely on Google or Apple Maps your car will get stuck on a road with foot-deep ruts where you'll need to be pulled out; I mean it's not driving on those crazy roads in Pakistan you see videos about (never been) but I would be willing to bet those roads, which I transit regularly, are amongst the poorer-quality roads in the US and I can see self-driving tech working there before long).

And I have spent a few evenings trying to understand how the corporate-owned-fleet economics work in rural areas (and in urban). I don't think it works today. But I do think that when costs come down, and they will come down if regulation doesn't kill self-driving cars broadly, or if Elon's right and you can do it with "cameras only," then it will only be a matter of time before the tech is adapted to crappy rural roads.

gcanyon
0 replies
1d6h

most of the US population

You do realize that "most" of the US population lives in cities, right? The "rural" population has remained almost constant since the 1960s, while the "urban" population has grown to roughly 5x the rural population's size. Even just counting the largest 100 cities is more than the rural population. Setting that aside for a moment, how does poor signage affect self-driving cars? They're not like humans expecting to take the third left but miscounting, or turning right at the Dairy Queen (which has shut down). They have GPS and full maps. Those maps might not be perfect, but they'll only ever be wrong once if they're part of a system, which is what's being proposed here.

To be clear, I'm matching your tone here. Normally I'd try to be a little more understanding and tempered.

johnisgood
3 replies
1d8h

So it is illegal to wear a hijab / niqab?

j4_james
1 replies
1d7h

Answered in the article:

However, it has exemptions for health and religious reasons.
johnisgood
0 replies
1d6h

I did not see that. I double checked just now and there are still zero results for "religious", not sure why.

throwaway2037
0 replies
1d7h

To be clear, a baseball hides more of your face than a hijab. (Niqab is a different story.)

chris-orgmenta
2 replies
1d10h

Does gait recognition (and body tics / unique movement style) not make this moot?

My sense is that facial recognition is a stop-gap and soon to be superseded, because the tech is there for more holistic 'reads' of a person - And that those subtle things that we humans can't see are actually plain as day and as clear as a fingerprint.

If we cover our face, then the data collected on gait etc. will be more than enough. If we adopt a different gait, then the data on other foibles and styles will then give us away. Etc. (we can't hope to disguise all of these at once)

cdirkx
1 replies
1d9h

A couple of years ago there were news articles that the pentagon has a "lasers that can identify people in a crowd from 200m away based on their heart rate signatures".

No idea if that's true or overblown, but it doesnt seem unlikely that such technology becomes possible in the future.

johnisgood
0 replies
1d8h

From where did they obtain your or my "heart signature"? What about gait, etc.?

chefandy
2 replies
1d19h

I'd like to see that too, but time and time again we've seen that:

a) laypeople aren't usually moved by privacy violations more abstract than someone physically watching you do something.

b) most people aren't willing to don practical accessories that noticably change the perception of your face unless it emphasizes qualities considered sexy.

c) safety gear generally isn't considered sexy

I think that this stuff would be perceived like wearing a physical bike helmet for your data privacy with all the cachet of Google Glass.

TeMPOraL
0 replies
1d11h

Also d) it's easier to update face recognition ML to see through the latest in camouflage fashion than to design, manufacture and sell new clothes after each update to the ML model. Especially that they need to keep fooling previous versions of the model too.

zeven7
1 replies
1d18h

Surely object recognition models will catch up to whatever attempts to thwart it (especially if it becomes popular). As long as a person is recognizable to another person, a computer should also be able to recognize them.

Trying to camouflage seems like a losing battle.

adrianN
0 replies
1d14h

Computers are a lot better at recognizing people than people. Simple things like your gait are enough.

singularity2001
0 replies
1d10h

Muslim women know. how is this controlling Gilde called in Dune again?

kelnos
0 replies
1d11h

I think it's safe to assume that 0.0000001% of the population will bother with that.

akira2501
14 replies
1d20h

these types of conversations seem like they're going to be more and more in the (sorry!) rearview mirror because we won't own the car nor the cameras that are recording the world as we "drive" around.

Perhaps in the urban setting but the majority of this country is not contained within cities. Even then are you planning on banning motorcycles and RVs?

because they will consider it their right to drive themselves

Until a law is passed otherwise they are absolutely correct.

the right-to-drive-oneself into the state constitution.

I doubt it. The real fight is likely to be whether we continue using mixed vehicle and pedestrian infrastructure or if we force pedestrians off the roadway entirely. Then we'll have a "right to walk" constitutional crisis.

PeterisP
12 replies
1d19h

Perhaps in the urban setting but the majority of this country is not contained within cities.

83% of USA population live in urban areas, and that proportion is still steadily growing. The same trends apply everywhere else in the world as well.

akira2501
8 replies
1d19h

83% of USA population live in urban areas

If you combine dense urban areas with suburbs. It's about 33% in dense areas and 55% in suburban areas. Which actually doesn't improve the driving situation.

and that proportion is still steadily growing

Which is why I specifically mentioned motorcycles. In areas of the world with even greater urban density than the USA there are a lot of these on the road.

The same trends apply everywhere else in the world as well.

These trends are influenced by economic policy and socioeconomic mobility of the population, which are not similar everywhere, so expectations do need to be tailored to them.

Editing to add, I actually think we'll see a new class of Drivers License, one that allows you to operate semi autonomous vehicles, and one that allows you to operate fully manual vehicles with a higher level of continuous written and on the road testing required to hold it. Which is a reasonable and non discriminatory solution to the problem.

Vegenoid
4 replies
1d19h

It's about 33% in dense areas and 55% in suburban areas. Which actually doesn't improve the driving situation.

Are the suburbs not one of the easier places for autonomous vehicles? I’d think the lower traffic, larger roads, and reliance on cars to get around (due to low density and lack of transit) would make them the ideal place for self-driving cars to succeed.

vineyardmike
3 replies
1d15h

I don’t agree. The problem is suburbs have a lower cost-per-mile for trips than urban areas.

It’s way more common to take a taxi in the city than the ‘burbs. Behavior for car ownership and expectations around waiting on rides is different. Self driving taxis are an easy transition in cities. In the suburbs, you need to sell people on expensive vehicles that cost a lot per trip (whether owned or hailed).

throwaway2037
1 replies
1d7h

    > suburbs have a lower cost-per-mile for trips than urban areas.
Can you explain why?

vineyardmike
0 replies
1d1h

Two ways to get these numbers. Consider the total miles driven, divided by cost of the car. Or consider the cost of a taxi if you don’t own a car.

I believe uber says their average cost per mile is roughly $1. So maybe $2 in urban areas. Waymo is $3 they said.

I saw some statistic that said a new car costs $800 a month now. Since we’re talking about selling new manual vs self driving cars, we can ignore people buying used cars or particularly cheap cars.

If you own a car in a city, you might drive to get groceries once a week and you may drive to a furniture store once every few years, and you take a couple trips to the airport every year. Cost city dwellers walk or take transit. Cities are dense, so the grocery store may be 2mi a way, so roughly 200mi a year, and then maybe 200mi a year for everything else. That’s 400mi a year (or 8mi/wk) with a car that statistically costs $800/mo in America - or 200/wk, so it actually costs $25/mi.

In the suburbs, you may drive 20mi round trip to the grocery store. Then 20mi a day round trip to commute, then 5mi a trip to a restaurant… it adds up to a lot more miles total. I googled it and the average American drives 1200mi/mo. That’s $1.5/mi assuming the same average $800/mo cost of a new car.

That means it’s cheaper for an urban dweller to take uber or Waymo instead of buying a new car. It’s almost but not quite cheaper for a suburbanite to take an uber but definitely not a Waymo.

lazide
0 replies
1d14h

Ultimately I think it’s the same city/rural (really dense vs less dense) divide between a lot of things.

In a suburban area, it could take 15 minutes for a taxi to get to you. In a rural area, 30 minutes to an hour. Inconvenient, especially since you could hop in the car you already have because of this situation, and probably already be where you want to go by the time they arrive.

In an urban area (especially a super dense city like Manhattan, Tokyo, Mumbai, etc.), you probably spend more time figuring out if you need a taxi than actually getting one (literally seconds in most cases), and god help you if you’re trying to park. It will not go well.

vineyardmike
2 replies
1d15h

Editing to add, I actually think we'll see a new class of Drivers License, one that allows you to operate semi autonomous vehicles, and one that allows you to operate fully manual vehicles with a higher level of continuous written and on the road testing required to hold it. Which is a reasonable and non discriminatory solution to the problem.

I hard disagree. I think it’ll follow a path more like gun ownership (not trying to wade into that here though). In rural and low density areas, people believe guns provide safety, while in dense urban areas, people believe guns add risk. In low density areas, people will need to drive themselves (I doubt as many people would buy self driving cars vs use as a taxi, roads will be less well mapped, etc ), while urban areas with increased risk of driving accidents will want to restrict access of roads from humans.

This urban/rural divide doesn’t make for good licensure policy. People who depend on driving themselves are less “sophisticated” - they won’t want to spend more time getting a license, because they live farther away, they’re less likely to take drivers classes, etc. We already see states with smaller urban population have easier driver’s license standards and age requirements. Pride in vehicle ownership and car culture is already geographic simply because urban residents are less likely to own a car. So rural-leaning elected officials will want to keep human-driving easy to access.

akira2501
1 replies
1d6h

This urban/rural divide doesn’t make for good licensure policy.

Have you spent any time living in rural areas?

People who depend on driving themselves are less “sophisticated” - they won’t want to spend more time getting a license, because they live farther away, they’re less likely to take drivers classes, etc

You do realize a lot of these people have class A license already because there are a lot of those jobs out there and farmers often get one to move their own product? You couldn't be _more_ wrong.

We already see states with smaller urban population have easier driver’s license standards

They also have wildly different politics. It turns out density has more than one impact. The largest one is suicide rates. Lowest in New York highest in Alaska. You can accidentally measure population density in all kinds of ways.

So rural-leaning elected officials will want to keep human-driving easy to access.

It's going to come down to who controls access to the freeways. I'm actually on the rural peoples side, but the interstates as a whole are a little bit out of their typical zone of influence. Given that rural life is already very different, much more so than some people can even imagine, I would expect to be the most likely point of negotiation and the most likely outcome given the parties involved.

Reasonable people could differ I guess.

vineyardmike
0 replies
1d1h

You do realize a lot of these people have class A license already

Admittedly, I didn’t know that.

They also have wildly different politics.

Yes, I’m just assuming self driving will be a topic broken down by politics. Do you disagree?

My core thesis is that rural people won’t want self driving because it’s less compatible with their existing life, and the “saves lives argument is stronger in urban areas. I think, like guns and many other political topics, it’ll be polarizing, and the rural voters will get an outsized influence to fight it. Highways are an important part of the road system. I can’t imagine rural people being locked out nor forced to have two vehicles.

Some people hunt for sustainance, and we protect that right despite being irrelevant for 99.9% of people. Many more people use trucks or heavy equipment on their farm/homestead for work (or pleasure eg off-roading). I assume we’ll end up protecting that the same way.

sseagull
2 replies
1d19h

According to the 2020 US Census, about 80% live in an urban area. However, the definition is not exactly what people think of when you say “urban”.

In 2020, the census lists 2,611 urban areas, including areas with a few thousand people.

https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/g...

Shouldn’t be too hard to break this down with a more colloquial definition (say, areas over 500k or 750k people). I’m just not at a real computer :)

Tool_of_Society
1 replies
1d18h

Calumet park is a village right next to Chicago with under 7000 people. Northfield village has under 6000 people and it's located within about 15 miles of Chicago. It wasn't until I was about 18 that I realized what I thought was Chicago were actually small towns/villages. There's a whole slew of small villages next to or "in" larger cities.

tptacek
0 replies
1d17h

Yes; the ordinary thing to compare is MSAs, which take this into account; Calumet Park (and Blue Island and Oak Lawn) are all part of the Chicago MSA.

harmmonica
0 replies
1d15h

I don't think you mean "you" as in me specifically, but in case that is what you meant I'm of course not banning anything and I'm not even advocating for that. I was predicting what I think will happen with self-driving cars and the privacy implications if that does to come to pass (still a big if).

As for urban vs. rural, I feel like rural will benefit just as much from self-driving as urban. I won't detail why, but it's pretty much the same reasons as urban. Economics will have to be better if it's going to be corporate-controlled cars, but, really, if Elon's right (huge if) and you can successfully have autonomy with a Model 3-level of hardware, then rural America may very well have widespread autonomous car access in the next couple of years.

Motorcyles? Great point. Not sure how that will shake out. RV's? Seems like a fantastic opportunity for autonomy. Sit in the captain's seat, beer in hand, actually watch the scenery as you drive on by. In fact I think the market for RV's will grow if folks don't have to drive them themselves because there are likely many people who wouldn't be comfortable driving an RV due to its size, but if it drives itself it could open up a whole new audience.

As for pedestrians, do you think pedestrians are being restricted more and more as the years go on? I see the opposite in both urban and rural areas in the US. Genuinely curious how your experience is different and where. I tend to think autonomous cars will make walking more pleasant. No more worrying about a car clipping you making a right turn, or a car driving unnecessarily fast and losing control, or a drunk driver losing control. All of those things may go away with autonomy (I say "may" because we're millions if not billions of miles away from anyone saying definitively that self-driving is safer/better/etc. In my limited experience riding in Waymos, though, I am incredibly optimistic about the technology. And I really look forward to us figuring out the privacy implications and other negatives that could come along with it because I think the benefits are so enormous that it'll be a massive shame if the tech does not work out long term).

hansvm
4 replies
1d15h

freedom crowd might fight it

Look at the 2020 covid vaccines. The freedom crowd said this was going to have massive privacy implications, there was a propaganda machine pushing those people as being crazy antivaxers (maybe many were, let's talk about the large subset who just had privacy concerns), and the net result is that most US citizens have their names, addresses, preferred vaccination locations, preferred vaccination times, propensity for following local regulations, ..., recorded in a database so broken it's basically public.

The freedom crowd didn't have a lot of power against a propaganda machine turning their neighbors against them. Tack in a few dozens of billions from Tesla or Google claiming their cars are safer than the average driver (in well-studied, dry, daylight, slow streets) and using that to push anyone unwilling to roll that tech out globally as a road-raged Luddite, and I'm not sure the freedom crowd are going to be able to do much to slow down our corporate overlords.

harmmonica
3 replies
1d15h

I'm not going to respond to your Covid commentary in an effort to avoid going down a rabbit hole, but I should say that when I wrote "freedom crowd" it's not some monolith. Specifically, I think there are plenty of freedom-minded folks across the political spectrum, and I do believe that those folks, again, across the spectrum, are going to have a hard time accepting self-driving cars en masse because of the privacy implications. I do think it will weigh more to the conservative side of the fence, but if you haven't hung around with extremely progressive people there is a huge contingent on that side that is very wary of government mandates and, I feel dumb even writing something this obvious, far more wary of corporate America's agenda than any other population in the country. Maybe you were talking about the left in the first place, but I think you were referring to the right based on bringing up Covid and the other language you used.

hansvm
2 replies
1d12h

That isn't a political statement. The flow from "we won't shove you in a database" to "the non-existent database was leaked" is something that's independently verifiable.

left/right

Yes, many people care about freedom

going to have a hard time accepting self-driving cars

I'm usually optimistic, but I don't think public sentiment matters here. To the extent it does, it'll be some sort of Faustian bargain, where the law says your car must have a backup camera (arguably useful) and as a byproduct brings in unwanted, undisclosed tracking and also remote takeover capabilities through radio bugs (buffer overflows plus poorly designed canbus access). However self-driving inflicts itself on the masses, it'll be in a series of small enough steps that the freedom crowd can't appropriately fight back.

kelnos
1 replies
1d11h

I'll certainly accept the possibility of bugs allowing remote takeover of vehicle cameras, but in general I don't think rear cameras are much of a risk to privacy. They're not always-on (generally they only turn on when the car is in reverse gear), and on many car models they're even physically covered when they're not active. (E.g. on my car, the manufacturer logo on the rear of the car flips up to allow the rear camera to "see" when I'm in reverse gear.)

Regarding bugs and remote takeover, the one thing that does feel like a mitigating factor is I expect for many car models it might be tough to find an exploit that enables the rear camera, but doesn't let the driver know that it's active. Usually when the rear camera is active, the infotainment display automatically switches to the rear view, and I wouldn't be surprised that there's no mode for "turn on rear camera but don't display the video feed to the driver" on most cars. Not as a security/privacy feature, but just because it's easier to write the code that links the two all the time rather than having it be conditional on something.

But yeah, as autonomous driving becomes more pervasive, there will be more cars with cameras recording everything around them at all times. I expect the manufacturers/operators of these cars to store that video for some time after capturing it, even just for quality control, bug tracking, and dispute resolution if there's a crash. And certainly law enforcement already has legal tools to compel the release of this kind of video.

I suppose this is just the next step of what's already the status quo, though. Many public places already have (stationary) cameras, either operated by the police or by private individuals, and police generally have the ability to access the latter, even. Cameras on autonomous vehicles just mean many more cameras over time, cameras that move around.

I don't really love this situation; I would like to see legislation that makes all of this data protected, and requires companies that store it to delete it after a relatively short amount of time (unless subject to a legal hold). But like most things, legal protections tend to lag behind technological progress.

hansvm
0 replies
1d2h

My complaint (from above, not the only problem with cameras) about the rear camera is that the cheapest way for them to be installed nowadays, given that other people want infotainment systems, is for them to go hand-in-hand with an infotainment system. Whether the camera is on or not, the car is now vulnerable.

The sin being committed is having too much code, especially too much untrusted, untested code (it's "just a radio") wired into the canbus. Toss in a little auto-update functionality and some always-on antennas, and you have all the makings of a nasty exploit. Last I checked, none of those have been known to be exploited in the wild, but they've also not been patched in the last decade. It's a fundamental design flaw that saves a few dollars, so it persists.

conradev
1 replies
1d13h

Can’t I just buy a car that lets me drive it but also can drive itself?

I can already today add functionality to cars with after-market hardware: https://comma.ai/?

throwaway2037
0 replies
1d7h

What is the legality of comma.ai kit? I find it hard to believe that states would want to allow it. It is surely much worse than Waymo.

aftbit
49 replies
1d23h

Creepy stuff. Maybe we ought not to constantly record everything happening around us all the time.

papichulo4
20 replies
1d23h

Seems like if it’s technically possible, it will happen, and we can’t stop technological progress. In fact, you and I are probably profiting from that progress. Hard to ask a guy to do something that goes against his paycheck. Even if we vote politically “correct,” whomever that may be, what are you and I voting for with our wallets?

Lammy
15 replies
1d22h

Seems like if it’s technically possible, it will happen, and we can’t stop technological progress.

‘The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who live in “advanced” countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Third World to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural world. The continued development of technology will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject human beings to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural world, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in “advanced” countries.’

Spooky23
4 replies
1d22h

Speak for yourself. My ancestors pre-industrial revolution were half starved tenant farmers making a subsistence living on too small plots of farmland in colonized Ireland, subject to random slaughter when the English changed their plans.

Now, our extended family is prosperous in the US, Australia and Ireland. We’re taller, healthier and mostly in professional or skilled trade jobs.

The past is often seen through a sepia tinted idealized slant. The past was full of suffering and brutality. Even warfare was just as brutal - in ancient times, Caesar slaughtered 1-2% of the global population in Gaul. In the 17th century, marauding armies picked regions cleaned and left thousands to starve.

deeptechdreamer
2 replies
1d22h

War, disease, famine were the norm for eras past. For those who lived during those times, I reckon their level of perceived suffering was no more than ours today. Humans are tragically skilled at adapting to new standards and shifting the threshold of struggle. People today get frustrated over a delayed plane departure likely just as much as people in the past were over a storm delaying their caravan by a few days.

As much of a proponent of technology as I am, I often reflect on whether we are truly bending the arc of suffering in a positive direction, or if it has remained far more constant than we’d like to believe.

Spooky23
0 replies
23h12m

When the English army or paramilitary militia came to burn the ancestors out of house and home to make room for settlers, I doubt their level of suffering was “adjusted”.

If they were lucky, they starved in the woods, hiding like animals.

Iulioh
0 replies
1d21h

Everyone is unsatisfied with what they have but some people are more right than others in the complaints they make.

dennis_jeeves2
0 replies
1d21h

too small plots of farmland

Small plots are _still_ a problem for most people . 'We' sort off worked around the small plots problem by having the industrial revolution come along and then made jobs available for those who had only small plots.

Hypothetically, if every human had an equal part of earth, relatively fewer would have been in the pathetic state that you mentioned in the per-industrial era, and even less so in the post-industrialization era.

njtransit
2 replies
1d22h

Do you really think life was fulfilling before the Industrial Revolution? Most men toiled, watched their children and wives die, before dying at a young age themselves. Where was the fulfillment, exactly? You’re only able to contemplate that life could possibly be fulfilling because of the Industrial Revolution.

yulker
0 replies
1d21h

Gotta look past the agricultural revolution, not just shortly before industrial revolution

checkyoursudo
0 replies
1d21h

There was no art, poetry, craftsmanship, skill, talent, fame, friendship (or relationships of any kind), flavor, joy, celebration, or creativity before the Industrial Revolution. Gotcha.

mixmastamyk
2 replies
1d22h

Sounds like a unabomber quote?

luma
0 replies
1d21h

It’s the introduction to the Unabomber manifesto.

eastbound
2 replies
1d22h

I don’t know. People have been living without reliable access to food and potable water, not even talking about sore deformations on their faces, for a thousand years. But somehow their lives were fulfilling?

throwaway894345
0 replies
1d22h

Yeah, I don’t see many of the people criticizing the Industrial Revolution opting into pre-industrial existences. I’m pretty minimalist, and I’ve grown up around the Amish and even they prefer to avail themselves of technology where they can. I think there’s a fair amount of romanticizing about a pre-industrial lifestyle. This obviously isn’t to argue that we should all live maximally consumerist lifestyles; I don’t think that’s true either.

swayvil
0 replies
1d21h

sore deformations

Is that what's referred to as a "wen"?

(Onomatopoetic term, that. Think of how you'd talk with a golfball in your mouth)

orochimaaru
0 replies
1d22h

Errr - not true. Pre Industrial Revolution you were either a serf or a lord. There were a few in the renaissance times who started getting an education and planting the seed of the Industrial Revolution. By and large your existence pre Industrial Revolution would have been at the mercy of your local lord.

Yes, there are negatives to the Industrial Revolution we have to overcome. But it’s a net positive for everyone.

You’re welcome to fantasize being someone’s slave. I’m not.

FpUser
2 replies
1d22h

"we can’t stop technological progress"

I do not want to stop tech progress, but I do want to stop social regress. Give it another 20-30 years and we will have same shit problems with freedoms as China, Russia, insert your fav scapegoat here.

sneak
1 replies
1d12h

There is no difference to what the USA and UK have done and continue to do to Assange and what China and Russia do to journalists they don’t like.

The idea that the west are the “good guys” hasn’t been true for a long time, if ever. China is just better at technology and large scale coordination than the US, so they are way better at building and deploying and operating large scale surveillance systems. The US will catch up in a few decades.

I believe this is inevitable. There is no meaningful opposition to pervasive surveillance in US government and there is no useful political action that can be undertaken by the public to turn this tide.

lanstin
0 replies
1d3h

Assange was killed with polonium or thrown out of a window? I think you have made your moral condemnation variable of Boolean type, rather than the more realistic float.

I think also it is worth distinguishing between corporate surveillance, where there are very few limits on what they can do with the data, vs government surveillance where we can exert some power over the government by electing people to pass laws that reflect our desire for privacy.

As well, I am surprised HN has not internalized Brin's essay "The Transparent Society." Privacy is going to be deeply reduced by the ability of all curious 13 year olds to launch insect sized drones. The question is how to handle - let only the overseers have the data or insist on public right to access data. Or something else; like laws forcing personal ownership of your data (although how things like being in the background of your neighbors cameras as you walk down the street should be handled there I am not sure.).

I would also point out that freedom and privacy aren't identical - one may have freedom via privacy or via less intrusive laws. (Ed: deleted incomplete thought).

Dibby053
0 replies
1d22h

If we had to vote everything with our wallets Tesla wouldn't exist in the first place. We would have $5,000 trucks made by Burmese war prisoners that can reach 200mph on full self drive, running on palm oil without a catalytic converter.

loteck
10 replies
1d23h

The incidental and systemic benefits of the recordings are exciting to people and celebrated with stories. The hazards of this constant "pollution" of data — how it is slowly changing our society, our economy, our humanity — is harder to quantify or build opposition to.

It's a bit like climate change. Slow, invisible poison.

AtlasBarfed
3 replies
1d21h

Law simply needs to internalize encryption. Your cameras are your property and only with consent of owner are they available to authorities.

Public cameras should only be decrypted for evidence to support litigation of crimes, not for police to search for violay, because the current gigantic book of laws has an implicit assumption of a difficulty to enforce.

If suddenly police could use AI to fully prosecute all violations of law then we have all the laws necessary for worse than totalitarian existence.

Every mile you drove in a car will be 10 violations of law. Laugh loud? Violation disturbance of peace. Stand looking at your email too long? Loitering. Cross a park? Dozens of environmental violations.

lupire
2 replies
1d21h

This is already in the US Constitution. 4th Amendment.

EasyMark
1 replies
1d3h

Sure by some interpretations. Unfortunately the current SCOTUS doesn’t see it that way, they think webcams and electronic surveillance should be in the constitution or authorities can do anything. If there isn’t a law or constitutional text to the effect then it doesn’t exist to them. So we have to approach this from actually getting a law passed.

hiatus
0 replies
1d2h

TFA is about camera footage obtained via warrant (thus following due process). Do you think evidence should not be obtainable via warrant?

Unfortunately the current SCOTUS doesn’t see it that way, they think webcams and electronic surveillance should be in the constitution or authorities can do anything.

Citation needed.

deepsun
2 replies
1d22h

s/poison/vitamin/ and you'll be happier.

skyyler
0 replies
1d22h

Double plus good idea, fine chap!

pjc50
0 replies
1d22h

I mean, yes, we'd like to replace poison with vitamins, but that requires some serious changes.

akira2501
2 replies
1d20h

and celebrated with stories.

Are you sure those are organic?

soerxpso
0 replies
1d14h

I've definitely heard organic stories from people who got favorable insurance/legal outcomes after a traffic accident because they were using a dashcam. Generally, if you're not doing anything wrong, it is a good idea to record whatever you're doing, because it's proof that you're not doing anything wrong (police departments use this to great effect; they love bodycams in 99% of cases, and simply turn them off when they're about to do something that they wouldn't want to have a bodycam for). The negatives are second-order effects that only come about when everyone is doing it.

EasyMark
0 replies
1d3h

I’m sure the vast majority of them are. Occam’s razor version: fear sells. If you can appeal to the clutching pearls part of the psyche then you can win over people to the idea of constant surveillance as necessary because of the current “wave of crime”. No matter how much crime is down or how many rights have to be taken away for “public safety”. Most reporters are just trying to put food on the table and outside of freedom of the press they couldn’t care less.

tptacek
6 replies
1d22h

Why? Bodycams are an unalloyed good, and have deeper privacy implications.

throwup238
5 replies
1d21h

With proper checks and balances in a civilian government, sure. The problem is when private companies help police departments do a runaround constitutional protections. Users have no sovereignty over their data (so to speak).

tptacek
4 replies
1d21h

To which Constitutional protections are you referring?

lupire
2 replies
1d21h

The 4th Amendment

tptacek
1 replies
1d20h

What does the 4th Amendment have to say about this? The guiding philosophy at the time 4A was framed is "the public is entitled to every man's evidence".

msrenee
0 replies
23h1m

They're towing cars. You think they bring them back 30 minutes later and leave a friendly note? Unreasonable search and seizure. I'd say the seizure of property worth tens of thousands of dollars as evidence for a crime the owner was not involved in is pretty unreasonable.

thfuran
0 replies
1d21h

Probably the fourth amendment.

jstummbillig
5 replies
1d21h

Is there any tangible reason that would actually weight enough to justify not actively wanting to provide basically free resources in help of uncovering (and in effect: preventing) a violent crime?

Because, if not, this is about as "creepy" as those nerdy guys sitting in their bedrooms and basements, tinkering with their silly computers all day, meaning: Non-conformist and something you might just not be ready to think about straight.

14
2 replies
1d21h

yes there is a valid reason to be opposed to this. Yes everyone one wants to stop violent crimes and murders and that is not a bad thing. But as history has shown time and time again if the people in power decide to become a tyrant and start to abuse the technology then we have a problem. Imagine if this was around 60 years ago. You go into a bar. Some cars have driven past the bar right as you entered a few weeks past. Now police realize this is actually a secret gay bar. They take all cars whose gps shows they passed the bar and take their footage. You are seen on camera entering a gay bar and now you are on a list and they start to harass you and question you. Seems like an unlikely situation that is far fetched but I like to remind people it was only in 1965 that the last person was arrested in Canada for homosexuality. He was even declared a dangerous sex offender. So no we don't want cameras recording every second of our lives. Things that may be legal today might not be tomorrow so we should have privacy from constant surveillance. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/everett-klippert-lgbt-a...

lanstin
0 replies
1d3h

Our freedom comes from sources other than technological privacy. It comes from our ability to be in charge of the law and to make the normal fun we want to be legal, legal.

I would be mich more concerned with regulatory capture by the spying corporations or laws passed by a minority seeking to impose a religious based set of laws than car cameras.

As you point out, you can be arrested for being gay without all those cameras, but the possibility of making laws to protect the right to be gay is also doable.

And if you don't think any sort of consumer right to own your data law will be lobbied against by Google and Meta lobbiests, well I think you are wrong.

jstummbillig
0 replies
9h34m

What you are good at picking up is incidents. That is how we work. How many lives would be saved by using Tesla for surveillance is a lot less tangible, and thus, meaningless in direct comparison. Because there is no comparison, if we don't feel it compares.

Whenever I see people seriously argue against statistics by leaning on stories, it tends to be complicated and sinister. If you are that afraid of your government, if you deem your government to be that irresponsible and also out of your control, that on average you would rather not default support it when fighting crime, then I think you are you confused about what battle you should actually be fighting.

krona
0 replies
1d21h

Perhaps because being at the scene of a crime makes you a potential suspect, and in an age of boundless incompetence, I'd rather not take that chance.

bartonfink
0 replies
1d21h

Police incompetence and overreach.

hypercube33
0 replies
1d13h

Early 2000s there was an unveiling of ARGUS-IS and if we have that and commercial companies know when daughters are pregnant before they tell their parents then stuff like the TV series Person of Interest seems all too plausible at least as far as mass surveillance AI exists. I doubt there is a Batman squad doing good on that level of technology out there hidden from society but there may be a military and CIA like op behind it.

There was tech to watch for what things you pick up and put back or dwell on in stores with cameras and heat maps and loyalty card tracking before 2005. it's not far off to get a person some computer thinks should be investigated based on patterns and data out there publicly.

samstave
0 replies
1d22h

Can I FOIA Yopur CarCam?

I Should be able to FOIA-LiveStream #OfficerBadge_Num

For #1  Rights? Maybe #2

#If Warrant granted, then enable FOIA-Cam_Footage = 1

jmspring
0 replies
1d21h

This is a hardone for me. In the family we have - 2016 Tacoma, 2015 Rav4, 2016 Mini, 2019 Sprinter RV. None have driver assist, backup cameras only, etc. I've been thinking about dashcams, but only ones where I know what will be published where (IE, not the cloud), so I have a personal record for instance if the kid has an issue in the Mini.

No plans to upgrade or get new vehicles unless a dire need. For instance if Sprinter or Tacoma die, drive the not-dead one. (Sprinter is technially an RV, but used for business).

m0llusk
30 replies
2d2h

It's happening. Cameras everywhere all the time. No more anonymity in public soon. Hopefully this will improve behavior generally, though at possibly great cost.

righthand
29 replies
2d2h

People will move out of the cities onto land where they can remove/shoot down cameras. The cities and policing are too aggressive with their big brother tactics, thinking FUD about crime is a good enough reason to take away privacy from people. It is actually a minority opinion that the country wants this but no one votes in local elections anymore so the minority wins.

klyrs
18 replies
2d1h

People will move out of the cities onto land where they can remove/shoot down cameras

People interested in method Mad Max LARPing are significantly overrepresented on HN.

righthand
16 replies
2d1h

Drones, country where owning a gun is right. I see no post apocalyptic societal leap needed to get to something like this happening.

People interested in fiction as the only match for predictions, are significantly overrepresented on HN. Please reference at me that “life will find a way”.

gruez
11 replies
2d

>>People will move out of the cities onto land where they can remove/shoot down cameras.

Drones, country where owning a gun is right.

Shooting down someone else's drones/cameras however, isn't.

righthand
9 replies
1d23h

It was on my property. Spying isn’t legal because you can fly a drone over my fence. My places have a right to defend yourself. How do I know it’s not an attack?

rad_gruchalski
5 replies
1d23h

Do you own the airspace above your property?

righthand
4 replies
1d17h

Who cares prove that it wasn’t on the ground when I destroyed it. My story will be: I saw it fall to the ground. When I walked up it looked like a bunch of spinning blades. I thought someone was attacking me so I destroyed the device.

klyrs
3 replies
1d17h

I thought someone was attacking me so I destroyed the device.

Funny thing about that government property you destroyed... it was broadcasting the evidence it collected.

righthand
2 replies
1d2h

The police department won’t have sophisticated government drones for at least another 20 years, that is if expensive drones prove to be worth the effort and cost to allow civilian level law enforcement to have one.

The point of this conversation isn’t to trump how you can get around my lie. The point is that I can lie to get out of any spurious law enforcement pursuits, and that is freedom. A drone isn’t impossible to take down covertly. I don’t have to answer every technical use case to make a point.

If a member of a small community goes against the federal government that believes government overreach is happening, they can get the community to protect them.

klyrs
1 replies
1d1h

The point is that I can lie to get out of any spurious law enforcement pursuits, and that is freedom.

You know that police are known for their brutality in both rural and urban environs, right? My dad lied to the cops when he lived out in the boonies and he got the shit kicked out of him and was thrown in jail on bullshit charges. He was released the next day, but his rib wouldn't heal for weeks.

righthand
0 replies
1d

And that applies everywhere in every case? All of this anecdotal evidence has nothing to do with people’s romanticization of the idea that you can isolate yourself pretty well in the remote US.

gruez
1 replies
1d23h

I'm not sure how you got the impression that the discussion was about cameras/drones on your property. The OP talked about "Cameras everywhere all the time. No more anonymity in public soon". It's clear that we're talking about other people's cameras in public spaces, not voyeurs trying to look in your bedroom.

righthand
0 replies
1d17h

How did I get that impression in my own reply chain where I made a point about it? Idk what you’re suggesting.

Eumenes
0 replies
1d22h

Acktually, the FAA owns the air and sky buddy!

kjkjadksj
0 replies
1d23h

Have you ever been in a heavy gun owning rural area? The first tell is just about every traffic sign on the major roads is swiss cheesed. People aren’t concerned about the letter of the law.

klyrs
3 replies
2d1h

Where you're certainly correct that "people" will move out to the country because of this, it's your insinuation that their number will be noteworthy that I find suspect.

And, as it turns out, high prevalence of gun ownership and radically inappropriate use of guns is not unique to either the city nor the country.

righthand
2 replies
1d23h

Yes my prediction remains to be seen if there is a dramatic effect. People can still leave nyc, the city can still grow in population and get terrible for surveillance free life. And people can still leave to avoid that. It doesn’t have to be a substantial event.

It’s like ad blockers, a lot of people don’t use them doesn’t mean there aren’t a significant portion of the population that doesn’t like ads.

And who cares if my circumstances are unique to the US or not. The article is about the US. So in the realm of reaction to increased surveillance, I’m referring to the US. But if we want to be pendantic, Mad Max doesn’t even occur in the US, so it’s not even a relevant comparison I would be making if I were making that comparison.

klyrs
1 replies
1d23h

Mad Max explores the possible consequences of your "I can shoot anything my bullets feel like hitting" brand of libertarianism. You can't invalidate an analogy by taking it quite so literally.

Is my analogy a stretch? Yes, if you keep your bullets within your property line. But fantasizing about moving to the country where you can shoot whatever thing you don't like at this moment is an entire trope that is broadly painted with the Mad Max brush

But your property line is irrelevant. You can't shoot down a high elevation surveillance drone. Drones with moderate elevation, at the property line, can take very high resolution pictures from a wealth of vantage points. Keep the bullets within your property line, and you've lost.

righthand
0 replies
1d2h

It’s not a fantasy, because a lot of people who move to the city, are from the country. People don’t care about every inch of life being surveillance free. They care about their square being a bastion for themselves.

Eumenes
0 replies
1d22h

"Hackers" who love censorship, surveillance, content moderation, etc, are also overrepresented here (tech in general, really)

Loughla
7 replies
2d1h

It's illegal, even in rural areas, to shoot down drones.

Also it's not drones that are an issue. It's ring cameras and car cameras and CCTV cameras.

righthand
6 replies
2d1h

It’s different depending on the municipality. Your initial statement is not exclusively true of every inch of land in the US. Furthermore any illegality is limited to what any small police department can actually do about it.

Loughla
2 replies
2d

I'm pretty sure it's the FAA that dictates that one. It's federally illegal.

And how motivated are they? Well I'm assuming someone will complain that you shot down their drone. And most police are very interested in firearm crimes.

The FAA is also very interested in people who shoot at aircraft of any kind.

K0balt
1 replies
1d5h

It’s remarkable how many people seem to think that drones are fair game.

Also, thank you for a kind and thoughtful comment you made to me in the past. It’s heartening to be reminded that civil decency is alive and well.

I hope you have a memorable and fruitful day.

righthand
0 replies
1d2h

It hasn’t been proven that drones aren’t fair game. So go ahead and down vote me for noticing this, but just because the FAA says the airspace is for any aircraft doesn’t mean I can’t shoot down your drone on my property in rural Nebraska and get away with it.

It will be on the feds to pursue a low level crime not worth their time. Until it’s proven you can’t shoot down a spy drone, then you can shoot down a spy drone. How do I know it’s not some Chinese spy drone? I’m just doing my part to protect my country.

Really the “not uh the FAA” stuff is irrelevant.

K0balt
1 replies
1d5h

Drones are legally classified as aircraft.

18 U.S. Code § 32 makes it specifically illegal to damage or interfere with the operation of aircraft.

The FAA takes this quite seriously, as not taking it seriously compromises their position of being able to regulate drones per se. Lax enforcement of protection of drones as aircraft is a potential legal argument that efforts to regulate drone activity outside of the scope of interference with manned aircraft are similarly deprecated in importance and legitimacy.

righthand
0 replies
1d2h

So you agree, I can shoot down a drone over my property and make an argument to get away with it and there isn’t enough legal reason or capital to pursue. There may come a day where I would get in trouble but I think right now spies are smart enough not to mass surveil with drones.

gruez
0 replies
2d

It’s different depending on the municipality. Your initial statement is not exclusively true of every inch of land in the US.

Please enlighten me where in the US you could legally shoot down someone else's drones.

Furthermore any illegality is limited to what any small police department can actually do about it.

If you're interested in protecting your privacy, why would it ever be a good idea to commit a bunch of felonies, by illegally discharging firearms to take down cameras? Even if you somehow didn't get caught, you're painting a big target on your back by committing all those crimes and putting everyone in the area on edge.

kibwen
1 replies
2d1h

> People will move out of the cities onto land where they can remove/shoot down cameras.

No, this doesn't help in the slightest unless you're moving to an isolated compound with no contact with the outside world. As soon as you get in your car to drive to the grocery store, you'll be subject to all the same surveillance. And if you're going to try to organize in your community to tear down and outlaw all the cameras between your house and the grocery store, you'll have an easier time of organizing in denser areas (not necessarily cities, but at least small towns).

righthand
0 replies
1d23h

A lot of small towns never installed the surveillance beyond a few old ladies. There are plenty of small towns with tiny populations that would love for people to move in and have no intention of ruining their neighbors lives.

Of course the idea isn’t perfect but the visual imagery people imagine suggests otherwise. People are enjoying their youth dumping data to be resold not because they can’t do anything about it but because there has been no consequences yet. That changes when your data is a direct pipe to law enforcement.

The entire thing is a illogical reaction, surveillance and moving away.

darth_avocado
30 replies
2d2h

I used to keep my Sentry mode on all the time. Then my car got broken into twice. The police didn’t bother to follow up despite having a video footage of what happened. Now I never turn it on. And now police wants to tow vehicles for the footage.

y-c-o-m-b
9 replies
2d1h

I don't turn it on simply because it drains an absurd amount of battery. I don't even understand why it does so. Is it old tech? My Blink cameras have 2 AA Lithium batteries that take motion-activated video all day on a busy side-walk for at least a couple of months. Yet one shopping trip drains like 2% battery in Sentry mode, wtf? That's a lot.

Tempest1981
5 replies
1d23h

You're comparing a motherboard with dual CPUs at 12+ cores each, a GPU, and 16GB of RAM -- to perhaps an ESP32. Very different design goals.

MutableLambda
1 replies
1d19h

Sentry consumes around 200W on Intel Atom and camera based detection enabled. I'd say it's a total overkill. It even heats up the display pretty good when it's relatively chilly outside.

Source: MYP 22 Intel based

Tempest1981
0 replies
1d15h

Wow, yeah, that's a lot of power. And didn't they already drop it by 40% earlier this year?

sweetjuly
0 replies
1d19h

Even so, you shouldn't be waking all 24 cores, the GPU, etc. just to record video. Let the cameras DMA into their buffers and wake up a single core when the buffers hit a high water line. The core only needs to be awake long enough to queue up the writes to storage and then it can go back to sleep.

parl_match
0 replies
1d22h

Very different design goals.

From the perspective of a sentry mode: very similar design goals.

CryptoBanker
0 replies
1d22h

No one said they had to hook the cameras up to a gaming PC. That’s an engineering choice

thebruce87m
1 replies
1d21h

The blink camera has a PIR sensor that wakes it up so it starts recording video. It doesn’t record video the whole time and running the PIR is not energy intensive.

The Tesla has to run the cameras and run computer vision algorithms to determine if something is happening.

wl
0 replies
1d21h

The Tesla also has a gigantic battery that’s at least 50 kWh. 2% of that is 1 kWh. Still seems like way too much.

MarkMarine
0 replies
1d23h

I’ve wondered this myself, how could 50 miles of moving 5000lbs at 60mph be equal to sitting running a camera for a day or two.

When I had a model 3 it also had an absurd amount of drain over night, 4-5% battery when it was just sitting there (without overheat A/C)

Leaving for vacation before I had a home charger was always fraught.

gruez
7 replies
2d1h

The article mentions that they tried towing a car because they were investigating someone who got shot and stabbed. While it'd be nice if police could investigate every type of crime, I don't see the contradiction between "police didn't follow up about your car being broken into despite footage" and "police towed a car to get footage about someone getting shot and stabbed"

darth_avocado
6 replies
2d1h

While it'd be nice if police could investigate every type of crime

That’s literally their job, which they get paid for. But anyway, my comment was more referring to the fact that if they had done their job, I’d be more open to keeping my Sentry mode on.

dragonwriter
5 replies
2d1h

> While it'd be nice if police could investigate every type of crime

That’s literally their job, which they get paid for.

It's literally not.

Their job is to do a variety of things, including investigation, according to the priorities of the higher, within the financial constraints they are given and according to the priorities of the authority placed over them (which in many cases is the top leadership of the police department themselves, because lots of times they are given a broad degree of structural independence from the local government they are associated with.)

What you say may be what you'd like their job to be, but it is not literally what their job is.

nox101
2 replies
1d23h

I agree with you that the police have limited resources.

At the same time, the better they do their job the less of it there will be to do as word spreads that you won't get away with it.

It could be arguably be much more efficient to take in user video, voluntarily offered, and prosecute all easily provable crimes and violations.

dragonwriter
1 replies
1d22h

At the same time, the better they do their job the less of it there will be to do

Institutionally, the police have very little interest in there being less perception of a need for police, that would result in them getting less resource, less deference, and more oversight and accountability.

nox101
0 replies
1d12h

that doesn't seem to have worked out for them.

pjc50
0 replies
1d22h

What this conversation is getting at is the police being (percieved to be) selective about what they do and don't care about is gradually corrosive to co-operation.

Terr_
0 replies
1d21h

This is a lengthy quote, but it's relevant and from one of my favorite authors:

Ah... Keep the peace. That was the thing. People often failed to understand what that meant. You'd go to some life-threatening disturbance like a couple of neighbours scrapping in the street over who owned the hedge between their properties, and they'd both be bursting with aggrieved self-righteousness, both yelling, their wives would either be having a private scrap on the side or would have adjourned to a kitchen for a shared pot of tea and a chat, and they all expected you to sort it out. And they could never understand that it wasn't your job.

Sorting it out was a job for a good surveyor and a couple of lawyers, maybe. Your job was to quell the impulse to bang their stupid fat heads together, to ignore the affronted speeches of dodgy self-justification, to get them to stop shouting and to get them off the street. Once that had been achieved, your job was over. You weren't some walking god, dispensing finely tuned natural justice. Your job was simply to bring back peace.

Of course, if your few strict words didn't work and Mr Smith subsequently clambered over the disputed hedge and stabbed Mr Jones to death with a pair of gardening shears, then you had a different job, sorting out the notorious Hedge Argument Murder. But at least it was one you were trained to do. People expected all kinds of things from coppers, but there was one thing that sooner or later they all wanted: make this not be happening.

-- Night Watch by Terry Pratchett

alkonaut
4 replies
1d19h

Is it legal to film anywhere? In Sweden filming in public places with fixed equipment (a car counts apparently) is illegal. But on the other hand any evidence is admitted in court, even material obtained while breaking a law. So there has been a few cases where police have caught the person vandalizing the car and also needed to consider whether to fine the owner.

dghlsakjg
3 replies
1d17h

In the US, it is legal to film anywhere public (out on the street, in a government building, etc). You can even film inside of private establishments (restaurants, stores) until you have been asked to stop.

This is part of the protection of free speech and press. You cannot use the footage gathered for commercial purposes without permission of people you filmed. Journalism for pay, and art for pay are not considered commercial purposes.

alkonaut
1 replies
1d6h

It is in Sweden too. And everywhere I know of in democratic countries. But here it applies so long as I’m there doing the filming myself.

The law here isn’t about filming but regulation of surveillance, and is only about installing equipment that films public spaces without permit. For example: a ring doorbell can film my driveway and porch but not the street.

The thing about the Tesla is that it counts the same as mounting a camera on a house filming a public street corner, and not as a person filming the same street corner with their smartphone.

I don’t see the connection to freedom of speech since the act of recording anything is unrelated to if and how you can use that recording (which would be when it becomes speech).

dghlsakjg
0 replies
1d2h

The us doesn’t differentiate between creating media with a handheld camera or creating media by permanently mounting an unattended 360 surveillance cam in the middle of a busy street. It is all seen as protected speech. You don’t have to see or agree with the connection, that distinction is for the US courts, and they have interpreted it VERY broadly.

The other difference is that in the states, you largely don’t have a right to privacy in public or anywhere visible from public.

sneak
0 replies
1d12h

*asked to stop by the owner. you are within your rights to film or photograph other restaurant patrons even if those being filmed don’t like it. it is up to the owner of the property.

cryptoegorophy
3 replies
2d1h

It saved me $2000 bill by recording a hit an runner

letmeinhere
1 replies
1d20h

Can you elaborate why? As in, you got hit by an insured driver and so your insurance was able to bill them, whereas you didn't have collision coverage of your own?

akira2501
0 replies
1d20h

whereas you didn't have collision coverage of your own?

That's the majority of people who don't have a lien on their title. Liability insurance covers what you do, it doesn't cover what someone does to you. So having evidence of who caused the accident is important when everyone just has liability coverage.

In California, though, I really do recommend you have the "Uninsured and Underinsured Counterparty" option on your insurance. It's usually far cheaper than the alternatives and it just covers you with no effort on your part.

telcal
0 replies
1d15h

It saved me a lot more. I was parked on my street and a garbage truck sideswiped the front driver side corner. The truck driver said it wasn't his fault and the car was parked too far from the curb but the videos showed what really happened.

akira2501
2 replies
1d20h

I was watching a youtube video about the "Kia Boys." A group of young men who made a lifestyle out of stealing Kia vehicles with flawed anti theft systems installed.

What interested me is that they make a habit of connecting their personal phone to the entertainment systems of vehicles they steal. They then use the large list of connected devices in their phone to brag about their stature as criminals.

Which is hilarious because it's not only evidence that connects them to a rash of vehicle thefts, but it also means every stolen vehicle retains evidence of who _precisely_ stole that vehicle.

The police don't seem to have a clue. The criminals surely don't.

mixtureoftakes
1 replies
1d18h

all while some people spend their entire lives obsessing about privacy without even doing anything illegal...

m463
0 replies
1d17h

wrong angle - most people aren't trying to cover their crime sprres, they know losing privacy is more likely to make you a victim. Could be robbery, but it could also be high hotel prices.

chacha102
29 replies
2d2h

This makes me _not_ want to get a Tesla, just to avoid the inconvenience of getting my car towed because of what it _might_ have inside of it. And the opposite, doing what Ring is doing and simply streaming it to the police directly, might be easier but I still believe a major privacy concern.

Sure, it could be helpful. But at what cost?

gruez
24 replies
2d2h

This makes me _not_ want to get a Tesla, just to avoid the inconvenience of getting my car towed because of what it _might_ have inside of it.

From the article:

Therriault said he and other officers now frequently seek video from bystander Teslas, and usually get the owners’ consent to download it without having to serve a warrant. Still, he said, tows are sometimes necessary, if police can’t locate a Tesla owner and need the video “to pursue all leads.”

They're not towing cars at first opportunity.

bigstrat2003
21 replies
2d1h

The fact that they're doing it at all is completely unacceptable.

gruez
11 replies
2d1h

Search warrants have existed forever, and allowed police to compel production of certain evidence. This includes breaking into residences or offices. I don't see how towing a car is any different. Unless you think search warrants themselves are "completely unacceptable", I don't see how towing teslas should be singled out.

snozolli
2 replies
2d1h

I don't see how towing a car is any different

Before modern FISA courts, we generally had faith that a search warrant was warranted, based upon other investigation. From what the article said, this sounds more like a "fishing expedition".

gruez
1 replies
2d1h

They did investigate. A guy was stabbed nearby, and the car was suspected to be recording. On a more practical level, the car was recording a public area (ie. the road) anyways, so it's not like that much privacy was lost by granting access to the video.

snozolli
0 replies
23h42m

and the car was suspected to be recording

That's the fishing expedition part. Again, from what the article said, there was no particular reason to believe it was in Sentry mode.

I don't know why you're bringing up privacy.

renewiltord
1 replies
1d8h

Yeah, but if you punish me for being a witness, I'll try real damned hard to look the other way.

johnisgood
0 replies
1d7h

Yeah, so many people just seem to be unable to put themselves in the situation. It is astonishing.

cabbageicefruit
1 replies
2d1h

Towing cars at all without a very crucial reason should be illegal in general.

Taking someone’s transportation that they assume they have access to, without their knowledge, and without them being able to find out until the very second they need that transportation is dangerous. Emergencies happen.

If you’re taking someone’s car you better have a damn good reason. And “you accidentally parked in the wrong parking spot doesn’t clear that hurdle. That’s what tickets are for. “Really wanting to see the recordings from your car camera” doesn’t clear that hurdle either.

Aloisius
0 replies
1d23h

And “you accidentally parked in the wrong parking spot doesn’t clear that hurdle. That’s what tickets are for.

Private lot owners can’t issue legally-enforceable tickets. Their only real option is to tow.

bigstrat2003
1 replies
1d21h

There is a huge gap between a search warrant (in which you are generally the suspect of the investigation) and "this guy's car might have evidence, let's tow it". The proper analogue to a search warrant here is the police getting a warrant to get the data off Tesla's servers, not towing the car away.

gruez
0 replies
1d21h

There is a huge gap between a search warrant (in which you are generally the suspect of the investigation) and "this guy's car might have evidence, let's tow it".

The cops had a warrant. Moreover, search warrants are granted if there's probable cause. Whether someone is a suspect is irrelevant.

The proper analogue to a search warrant here is the police getting a warrant to get the data off Tesla's servers, not towing the car away.

Is it even on tesla's servers? According to the article it's stored on a USB drive in the car.

monkeywork
0 replies
1d22h

I think the difference is historically the average person wasn't doing a lot of surveillance where as an office place did.

Many people do not want their cameras in the doors, property, cars, etc being used by the police for cases that do not directly impact them.... they do not want to be involved, same as many "witnesses" will simply say they didn't see or know anything and be uncooperative.

As cameras start becoming more and more built into every day items many people suddenly can find themselves thrust into situations they want nothing to do with, so sure search warrants have existed forever but the chance of it impacting the average non-involved party were pretty slim, that chance is growing and people dislike it.

kjkjadksj
0 replies
1d23h

Because you have to then recover the car which is hard to do when your car was effectively stolen

dylan604
7 replies
2d1h

Very much this. Towing by the police should only be something done when the car is in violation of something. I did not see anything about the expense of retrieving the car. You took the person's car so there is definite expense of getting there. Did you force the person to miss a flight, a meeting, a date? WTF do these people think they are so above and beyond rational thought is ridiculous.

gruez
6 replies
2d1h

Very much this. Towing by the police should only be something done when the car is in violation of something.

If the police has a search warrant for your home and you're not there, they can break in, even if you're not "in violation of something". I don't see how this is any different.

dylan604
4 replies
2d

I don't have to make arrangements to go get my home when it is searched. Also, if you're searching my house, more than likely, I'm directly involved in something. They don't break into my house to get my Ring footage, which is much more equivalent in your attempt equating these disparate concepts. You've now made an innocent civilian incur ridiculous fees to get their car out of impound when there was no reason to impound it to begin with.

You could just as easily boot the car and wait for the owner to return. It's not like this was a long term parking spot. There are just so many options other than tow this innocent car.

gruez
2 replies
2d

I don't have to make arrangements to go get my home when it is searched

They could however, break your door (if you're not there to let them in), and AFAIK they're not responsible for getting it fixed.

Also, if you're searching my house, more than likely, I'm directly involved in something.

That's irrelevant. The standard for a search warrant is "probable cause" regardless.

They don't break into my house to get my Ring footage, which is much more equivalent in your attempt equating these disparate concepts.

...because the ring footage isn't in your house, it's in the cloud. Moreover, if you have an on-premise system and you're on vacation or something, it's plausible that they get a search warrant and break in, especially if they think time is of the essence (eg. your system has limited retention and the footage is going to be wiped).

You could just as easily boot the car and wait for the owner to return.

If you read the article the police claims that it's only used if they can't locate the owner. It's unclear what that exactly means, but it's not like they're towing every tesla near the crime scene.

dylan604
1 replies
2d

"If you read the article" is such a lame comment. In other comments in this thread, I've literally quoted the article. How in the world could I have pulled a quote without reading the article.

It's clear you and I have polar opposite sentiments regarding this. So I'll leave it here as you are quite tiresome

gruez
0 replies
1d21h

"If you read the article" is such a lame comment. In other comments in this thread, I've literally quoted the article. How in the world could I have pulled a quote without reading the article.

Unlike some commenters I don't check a commenter's entire comment history before making comments. In fact, I don't even keep good track of what everyone said in a particular thread, so forgive me if I didn't do enough due diligence before making a vague implication that you didn't read the article. That said, you need to chill out. If you can't handle a vague implication that you didn't read the article, maybe online forum commenting isn't for you.

lucb1e
0 replies
1d18h

I don't have to make arrangements to go get my home when it is searched

Yeah but you no longer have a front door or window when you get there (the person spoke of them breaking in if you're not home), so you have to make other types of arrangements

kjkjadksj
0 replies
1d23h

Well its quite different as they don’t put your home on a trailer and haul it away across town without telling you.

umeshunni
0 replies
2d1h

Sadly the politics of the Bay Area has led to a crime wave and most people feel differently.

conception
1 replies
2d1h

So they say in the interview. Irregardless, if I own a car and it is legal for the police to take it so they can hold onto it until they have a warrant of I give in? No thanks.

gruez
0 replies
1d23h

Irregardless, if I own a car and it is legal for the police to take it so they can hold onto it until they have a warrant of I give in?

The article says they got the warrant before towing it.

tamimio
3 replies
2d1h

My car isn’t a Tesla, and the dashcam has a “parking mode” that records everything while parked. So, do that, don’t get a Tesla, and never get towed to access the camera.

gruez
2 replies
2d

If the police sees the dashcam and suspects that there's footage on there, they can apply for a search warrant and seize that footage as well. It's unclear why they needed to tow the tesla in the first place. The article says that the footage is on a USB drive, so presumably they could just pull it out and make a copy. If they're towing it because they couldn't locate the owner and want to open the car non-destructively, then your suggestion of not driving a dashcam and using a tesla probably isn't going to save you either.

teslacams
1 replies
1d21h

Search warrant for what ? Is footage of something illegal illegal too ?

teslacams
0 replies
1d20h

.. or do they have a right to see everything else that could be recorded on that cam just like that ?

pbohun
16 replies
2d1h

We've seen this type of thing happen with Ring, where the police want video from people's private cameras. Do police have the legal right to access/take people's private property like this? I thought the 4th amendment of the constitution protected against unreasonable searches and seizures?

gruez
8 replies
2d1h

Do police have the legal right to access/take people's private property like this? I thought the 4th amendment of the constitution protected against unreasonable searches and seizures?

Search warrants specifically exist to give police the "legal right to access/take people's private property", and are widely accepted to be constitutional.

brvsft
4 replies
2d1h

You pretend this is some obvious fact, but obtaining a search warrant against a person or property that were uninvolved in the crime but may have only been 'witness' to it is not obvious or clear to me.

zerocrates
3 replies
2d1h

The standard for getting a search warrant is probable cause, and that includes just probable cause to believe that there is evidence of a crime at the place to be searched.

Taking the witness analogy, even an actual person who's a mere witness can be compelled to testify with a subpoena.

johnisgood
2 replies
1d7h

No wonder people are not so willing to report a crime or be witnesses. They are getting punished for it.

kayodelycaon
1 replies
1d1h

A lot of places, talking to police is a very bad idea both because of the police and the other people in the neighborhood. You could very easily get shot for doing so.

johnisgood
0 replies
21h41m

In the US, absolutely. In Europe, not so much, thankfully.

ralferoo
2 replies
2d1h

This might be setting a new precedent though. I'm making assumptions here, but I'd have thought that search warrants were historically used at locations where the suspect lived / worked / frequented. Even at premises not owned by the suspect, the police turning up and requiring all the security footage doesn't deprive the premise owner of anything. Towing away an innocent law-abiding citizen's car for a matter entirely unrelated to them seems like it's massively overstepping the line set by any previous precedent.

I can't think of anything else that could be seized by the police from an entirely innocent non-suspect which would cause a similar level of disruption in their life. What happens when the car owner needs to head to work in the morning and find their car has been taken. I doubt a call to the police is going to quickly reveal that it was the police themselves who took it. Even if it does, if they're holding it for evidence, they might not get it back very quickly. What if the lack of car leads to negative consequences for the owner - maybe they miss an important work meeting, flight, date, whatever - are the police going to compensate them for that? What if the owner is out of the country for a month and they only need a week to act on the court order and get all the video - does the owner then have to pay impound fees? Is it discriminatory that the police assume all Tesla's can be seized this way even if they don't happen to be recording, but they wouldn't consider doing to same to any other make of car even though any car might have a dash-cam that records when locked.

gruez
1 replies
2d

This might be setting a new precedent though. I'm making assumptions here, but I'd have thought that search warrants were historically used at locations where the suspect lived / worked / frequented.

Search warrants exist to give police access to evidence when there's probable cause. Often times this is "at locations where the suspect lived / worked / frequented", but there's nothing in the jurisprudence that limits it to those areas. The standard is "probable cause" in any case.

Even at premises not owned by the suspect, the police turning up and requiring all the security footage doesn't deprive the premise owner of anything. Towing away an innocent law-abiding citizen's car for a matter entirely unrelated to them seems like it's massively overstepping the line set by any previous precedent.

They can and do break into premises, even if they're "an innocent law-abiding citizen", if the owner isn't there to allow them access onto the premises. The article specifically mentions that they only tow the car if they can't contact the owner, which seems consistent with that.

ralferoo
0 replies
2d

They can and do break into premises

That's fair enough to some extent. Not sure about the US, but in the UK they are also responsible for re-securing the access point when they leave, and I believe you can claim compensation for the repair work. Presumably also, if there were any thefts while the property was in this vulnerable state, the insurance company would sue the police to try to reclaim the money paid out to cover the loss.

Taking someone's primary mode of transport, perhaps their only viable option, is a whole order of magnitude worse than breaking into a property to carry out a search warrant. For someone who's not even a suspect, or in any way connected, it's a massive violation of their rights.

only tow the car if they can't contact the owner, which seems consistent with that

To be honest, it seems unlikely they'd easily be able to contact the owner, unless it happens to be parked outside their own residence. And the flip side of them not being able to contact the owner to ask permission is that the owner has absolutely no idea where their car is, and they only find out it's missing when they need it most. And probably not in an area they'd like to hang around too long in, if there's just been a homicide near there.

kylehotchkiss
4 replies
1d23h

If it’s my outdoor cameras and it pertains to a crime that happened just outside my home, they can have the footage. A very practical contribution I can make to my neighborhoods safety

monkeywork
1 replies
1d22h

So if the camera is in your car you are ok with them towing it away to pull the footage if they can't get in touch with you right away leaving you without a car?

What if while looking at your footage for a crime outside your home (not related to you or your property) they see you doing something that could constitute a charge should they be able to share you for it as well?

If someone saw you out in front of your house on your phone during the time of the crime should the authorities be able to seize your phone under the assumption that you were likely recording the incident?

Terr_
0 replies
1d21h

towing it away

I think these hypotheticals are starting to blur different concepts and questions, namely the distinction between:

1. Generic request

2. Subpeona

3. Warrant (reasonable)

4. Warrant (stupid/crazy/evil)

____

I suspect OP is mainly thinking of (1) and (2), where they get a phone call or letter and they say: "Sure! Here's a link to the video file."

I would also guess OP might be okay with (3) where an officer came to their door and said "I need watch you copy time-range X-Y of your front door footage onto this USB stick I brought", or even "I need to take your entire SD card for a few months" if the footage seems very important.

In contrast, I don't think OP is supporting the idea that police can get a warrant to rip the camera out of the wall and break down their door and seize all their electronics.

tedajax
0 replies
1d23h

Keep boot licking I guess

jajko
0 replies
1d23h

When they will come for evidence, they will not care whether its your external camera or baby watcher or whatever they will deem necessary.

raincom
0 replies
1d21h

Third-party doctrine is a legal way around the 4A: "The third-party doctrine is a United States legal doctrine that holds that people who voluntarily give information to third parties—such as banks, phone companies, internet service providers (ISPs), and e-mail servers—have "no reasonable expectation of privacy" in that information. A lack of privacy protection allows the United States government to obtain information from third parties without a legal warrant and without otherwise complying with the Fourth Amendment prohibition against search and seizure without probable cause and a judicial search warrant."[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine

IIAOPSW
0 replies
1d22h

In general, if there's a record of something which was captured in the course of ordinary business which is relevant as evidence in a court matter (such as the recording of your Ring camera), and parties to proceedings have good reason to believe you have this record, then they can generally get a subpoena issued to compel you to produce it for the court. This applies to both the prosecution and the defense (both criminal and civil).

The protection against "unreasonable" search and seizure comes in the form of the fact the requesting party has to convince the court (usually the registry) that there is reasonable grounds before they will issue a subpoena.

As an investigative matter (prior to any charges, court listings, and subpoenas), it is possible to get a search warrant including for evidence held by 3rd parties who aren't suspected of anything. Again, police don't have carte blanche. They need to convince a judicial officer of some sort that there is reasonable grounds before a warrant will be issued.

There are ways to challenge a warrant/subpoena. Sometimes a successful challenge only serves to make the evidence inadmissible but doesn't prevent the search in the first place (aka "you can beat the ticket but you can't beat the ride).

All that said, some judges / courts tend to practically be a rubber stamp for whatever warrant / subpoena the police want. Others actually do their job. It ain't perfect, but if you can think of a better system, I'd love to hear it.

BenFranklin100
7 replies
2d1h

Freedom requires both Liberty and Privacy. An all-seeing state will destroy Liberal society.

Reform requires reform of both the government and industry. Industry will happily gather the data and the state will then buy it from industry as a means to circumvent the 4th amendment.

https://reason.com/2024/08/20/how-the-feds-buy-their-way-aro...

Aloisius
3 replies
1d23h

What does that have to do with this article?

The police are getting warrants for the video.

BenFranklin100
2 replies
1d22h

They aren’t getting warrants to tow the vehicles. They have no right to seize private property, especially the private property of someone not even involved with the crime in question. And what if the Tesla owner, as is their right or at least should be, refuses to release the video footage? How long do the police keep the illegally seized vehicle while the owner sorts out the seizure before the courts and at what personal cost? And what is prevents the police from obtaining the video through extrajudicial means? Does Tesla itself have access to the video? Can they sell/give it to the police? Are there legal safeguards against this or is it an open market as the linked Reason article shows? All of the above applies to any aftermarket camera security system as well. Also, if the police get access to the car data by some means, can they use any of the data to file separate charges against an uncooperative owner as retribution if they desire? There are many questions along these lines when dealing with an intrusive police state.

davidt84
1 replies
1d22h

They aren't getting warrants to tow the vehicles.

Um, FTA:

“Based on this information,” Godchaux wrote, “I respectfully request that a warrant is authorized to seize this vehicle from the La Quinta Inn parking lot so this vehicle’s surveillance footage may be searched via an additional search warrant at a secure location.”
BenFranklin100
0 replies
1d21h

I misspoke. They should no right to tow the private property of uninvolved individuals, warrant or no warrant. It is police overreach.

moate
2 replies
1d22h

Freedom does not require Liberty because Freedom does not require the state. Liberties are granted, not natural, Freedoms. Freedom sounds great and people love to hype it, but doesn’t exist in a meaningful way in most advanced societies.

If we’re going to use proper nouns, we need to use them properly.

BenFranklin100
1 replies
1d22h

Go live in the remote wilderness in your cabin. The rest of this will live within civilized society with our necessary liberties, thank you very much.

moate
0 replies
1d5h

I advocate for no such thing but you want to have a discussion about things, you learn the vocabulary. It’s hard to talk about political theory when you use the words wrong just the same as someone calling the UI for Wordpress “the back end” makes it hard to have an engineering discussion.

Liberties are fine, but don’t act like Freedom exists in modern society (or maybe any society) for the exact reason your flippant dismissal implies: the needs of other people. A poor invocation of Franklin indeed.

thunder-blue-3
6 replies
1d22h

Will they though? Crime enforcement in the bay area is a joke - from alameda county into SF. I'm so happy to have moved out and into a state with actual community engagement and accountability.

loteck
3 replies
1d22h

Where'd you move to?

thunder-blue-3
2 replies
1d21h

Connecticut - I've never felt safer walking around at 3 am and I've made more friends in the last 2 months (without trying) than I probably have in the last 6 years of living in the bay area.

libria
1 replies
1d1h

Good to hear! Are the comparable areas of similar population density? I'm wondering what incremental steps (non-partisan hopefully) can be brought to the Bay Area to slowly move it towards a similar environment.

thunder-blue-3
0 replies
2h13m

I lived in the Bay Area for about 30 years, so here's my (probably biased) opinion. The biggest issue is the lack of community, and in my experience, this is due to the high turnover of residents. From my high school graduating class of 400, fewer than 100 are still in the community; everyone else has moved to Florida, Phoenix, Austin, etc. You can't encourage long-term planning (good public education policies, systematic reductions in the drivers of crime, etc.) if the community changes every two decades. My personal opinion is that the Bay Area won't improve because everyone is out to get 'theirs' and then leave. While I do miss the weather, the lack of humidity, and, honestly, a more educated population, I believe raising children in a strong community is more important. So, I'm more than happy with the trade-offs for a better overall quality of life.

hereme888
1 replies
1d22h

The stories I hear from family living in the area... basically unless you're actively being assaulted, cops just don't show up. Unheard of in "normal" parts of the country.

My brother once had his vehicle stolen, he traced it, found it, and because the police wasn't motivated to show up, he acted over the phone as if he were about to get into a life/death confrontation with the thief. Then they sent someone.

thunder-blue-3
0 replies
1d21h

My ex's father was held up near his home with a knife - OPD never came after the initial call was filed.

neilv
6 replies
2d1h

Who gave Tesla and their drivers the right to set up video surveillance cameras in public?

snozolli
5 replies
2d1h

Unless they're parking in an area with a reasonable expectation of privacy, such as a locker room, it's perfectly legal to record in the United States.

neilv
4 replies
2d1h

You can argue what exactly is and isn't a reasonable expectation of privacy, and someone else can argue differently.

For example, the upskirt "street photographers" have long argued one way, and eventually they get smacked down, legally.

SkyPuncher
2 replies
2d

It’s hard to take your argument serious when you choose a pretty absurd example. You walk around the street with a pair of eyes on your face, but that doesn’t mean you can just bend over and look up people’s clothing.

The law clearly establishes a difference between capturing “normal” content in public and invading privacy.

neilv
1 replies
2d

Do the privacy laws regarding public surveillance speak of "content"? Because that sounds like something a techbro smug halfwit would say.

SkyPuncher
0 replies
1d22h

Yes, and in California, where this article is based, there are explicit laws against this.

gruez
0 replies
2d

You can argue what exactly is and isn't a reasonable expectation of privacy, and someone else can argue differently.

No. The guy you're replying to isn't giving his opinion on whether it should be allowed or not, he's stating how the law works right now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_of_privacy_(United...

mullingitover
4 replies
1d22h

A large group of people will look at these stories of technology being used to get the worst people off the street and say "This is creepy stuff," and a lot of that same group will listen to politicians telling them "the solution to gun violence is for everyone to have guns" and nod thoughtfully in agreement.

userbinator
2 replies
1d22h

Guns can't be used for surveillance.

perching_aix
0 replies
1d22h

mount a camera on them

mullingitover
0 replies
1d22h

A person who believes they'll be caught and face consequences for committing crimes is strongly affected by knowing there is heavy surveillance of their criminal activities. They're less likely to be deterred just knowing that a lot of other people will randomly have guns, in fact that makes them more likely to also have a gun and to shoot first (e.g.: that actor who was gunned down confronting someone who was stealing a catalytic converter).

moate
0 replies
1d22h

Sure? But some people also don’t care about either and others people think too much focus is on preventing effects (crime) and not on addressing cause (material conditions) and plenty of pro-fascists quote 1984 to support policy that would have made Orwell want to shoot them in the head.

People be crazy.

reillys
2 replies
1d22h

If I or somebody else was the victim of a crime I would 100% support using every available source of information to solve that crime. I think we need adequate controls sure, but mostly we need to increase trust in government and police forces so we know we can trust the relevant people with our data.

There is epic fear in the US about the government. That is the actual problem. Now the US gov is a shady piece of shit, so a lot of that is well founded, but that is the root of the problem. Solve that problem and actually trust the people who are supposed to be responsible and in charge to do the right thing and this data problem stops becoming as much of an issue. And no, building some kind of philosophical zero trust system is not going to solve anything, it is a prison you'll end up living in.

Encourage transparency in Police forces and Government with strong legislation and strong support for whistleblowers and punishment of infractions and you have yourself a system that people can begin to trust.

trompetenaccoun
1 replies
1d22h

It's not just the police. How could such a corrupt police exist without corrupt superiors higher up in the government? Fear of governments is justified, they're the most powerful entity in our world. They can get away with murder.

The US is not Iceland, a simple fix that would just make people trust the police is impossible. Also as an aside, the police isn't your only problem. Tesla, Google & co are paving the way normalizing these mobile surveillance units. We'll have millions of them driving around everywhere with HD cameras, microphones, in some cases even LiDAR and radar. Recording constantly. Of course there's a bit of an issue if you are not a fan of mass surveillance. Even if corporations are the only ones in charge of that data. I know for example that the Tesla video feed can be accessed online, because owners can remotely view it with their app. And if they can do this, so can others in theory. All you need is a bug or Tesla servers getting hacked.

reillys
0 replies
1d19h

Well actually that brings up an interesting piece about how the US is structured. I think the reason your police can be more corrupt is because of the federated nature of policing.

Cops are usually only answerable to the mayor of the city (and sometimes the electorate) rather than higher ups in the government. So there is a lack of authority and control there. If they were answerable to politicians and politicians were actually responsible for their actions you could take very firm political actions against those politicians - but in the states nobody in the Cabinet or Government is responsible for law enforcement.

And I understand why this federated system was originally put in place, but this isn't the 1700s. In communication terms the US might as well be Iceland - you can communicate from one end of the land mass to the other instantly, so we don't need to have localized and federated decision making.

pdar4123
2 replies
1d21h

I have perhaps unpopular additional suggestion. If you break any traffic laws your tesla should automatically report u to the police. Shouldn’t a car w AI capabilities be committed to responsible, ethical, safe, law abiding behavior ? I’m tired of bay area Teslas not signaling, cutting me off, and near killing me while I’m walking or on my bike.

spacephysics
0 replies
1d21h

Nah that gets to a police state mighty fast.

It works if the people in power align with your values, but the moment it doesn’t it becomes a problem

nothercastle
2 replies
1d18h

There are already plenty of cameras out there. It would not be very difficult to identify criminals. The problem is there is not sufficient motivation to do so and nobody knows what to do once the criminals are identified. My city just practices catch and release policing so laws only apply to those that will pay fines

Ylpertnodi
1 replies
1d11h

so laws only apply to those that will pay fines.

So, penalising the poors who are not as poor as the other poors.

nothercastle
0 replies
1d4h

The rich pay the fines too, it’s just that it’s not a meaningful deterrence. The poorest simply drive without plates or licenses so they are immune

jauntywundrkind
2 replies
2d

To me, it's a bug not a feature that precedent can just expand infinitely as new capabilities in the world grow.

There's a lot of people saying that search warrants have always allowed intrusion & seizure. But the fact that all these devices (cars, cameras, phones) are now potentially interesting data-rich objects to be seized, mined for ever larger total information awareness by the state seems like a massive defect & flaw of the system to me.

I dont want old laws + new technology to automatically result in the state's eye of sauron (palantir) getting to better observe us.

moate
1 replies
1d22h

The state’s first goal is to protect the state’s continued existence. Anything that can be seen as interfering with that can be labeled an enemy and relegated to subhuman/other/destroy on contact status. From there, state violence, and from there, nazis.

jauntywundrkind
0 replies
1d20h

By far the most critical aspects of the state maintaining itself is to have the faith of the people, as a just and right entity that doesn't deserve to be smashed, whose blood is good for more than renewinf the tree of liberty

This ever expanding invasiveness delegitimizes the state. Physical security is a positive, only when the power itself is used respectably & virtuously. Pursuing enemies at all cost makes you a bad state, that can't be believed in. Some balance is required. Some limit to intrusion is necessary, and to me, this violates the sovereign rights of the citizens, to have so much of our lives repurposeable & cooptable by the state with ever increasing scope and haste.

reissbaker
1 replies
1d17h

LMFAO. My Tesla has been broken into multiple times in the Bay Area, with footage of the perpetrators and their license plate numbers, and the police have refused to investigate and were often unwilling to even accept the footage. And this isn't just me: literally everyone I know with a Tesla in the Bay Area has had a similar experience. The cops do not care, at all.

Towing someone's car on the off chance it had video surveillance of a crime the police bother working on is insane overreach when they won't even investigate crimes to that owner's car in the first place.

hiddencost
0 replies
1d8h

Refactor the police into micro services.

xyst
0 replies
1d22h

Surveillance tech masquerading as “self driving vehicles”. Those Waymo vehicles are prime for this.

x3haloed
0 replies
1d15h

I’m sorry you’ve been inconvenienced by a murder… Or is that the country we’re living in now? “Murder happens, just don’t bother me.”

worik
0 replies
1d14h

The video should not be stored.

Have a 24 hour wiping cycle

tiziano88
0 replies
1d19h

"You have ad-blocker turned on" despite that being completely untrue.

squarefoot
0 replies
1d3h

Phew... good thing that the eye recording implant hasn't been invented yet, or some of us would have their personal life turned into an evidence log.

savrajsingh
0 replies
1d18h

Free feature idea: - Tesla needs a public facing website that allows anyone to request a video for a cost — any location at any point in time - vehicle owners can review video footage and approve request - vehicle owner gets a cut, Tesla gets a cut, authority or person in fender bender or whatever gets video

rcpt
0 replies
1d21h

So we're finally getting speed cameras?

personjerry
0 replies
1d17h

Kinda sounds like we're heading for the authoritarian surveillance state that China has spearheaded, only with more steps

paweladamczuk
0 replies
1d9h

I wonder why the title of this HN posting was edited to only include the first sentence of the headline.

p0w3n3d
0 replies
1d2h

Sounds ridiculous. What happens if you have a home camera? Do they take your home? Really?

nonethewiser
0 replies
1d23h

Autonomous vehicles will not be your property.

mvc
0 replies
1d22h

So funny to watch the US competing with China to be the most authoritarian state.

kepler1
0 replies
1d23h

Here in California (and generally in the US, as well as other places where the cost of enforcing laws seems to be growing too costly/unpalatable), we seem increasingly interested in documenting and retroactively following up the aftermath of crimes. Rather than preventing them when / before they're happening. I'm surprised the police even care to watch video afterwards.

(aside from the serious crime stuff like in the article)

jimt1234
0 replies
1d16h

I was once pitched a business where external-facing cameras would be provided to car owners, distributed through auto insurance companies. The business intended to make money from selling the video data to law enforcement. I'm skipping a lot of details, but one of the main objections is that the police wouldn't pay for the data, they would just take it.

hk-hater420
0 replies
1d19h

My car ain’t no snitch

forinti
0 replies
1d20h

Not so bad if my car can drop me off at work and, go to court, and then pick me up at the end of the day to go home.

diebeforei485
0 replies
1d14h

Hotels should maybe have cameras on their parking lots.

caseyy
0 replies
1d15h

Did your house witness a crime?

We already have cameras on many of our homes, so it should be roughly the same process.

Towing sounds ridiculous. No one should be penalized for a crime someone else did. But taking away one’s car is a major penalty.

btilly
0 replies
1d19h

I'm sorry, but what happened to the 4th Amendment? Your car was parked in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even though you followed all rules, we're taking it.

Not without a judge.

bloomingeek
0 replies
1d3h

I don't own a Tesla, and frankly, don't want to own anything associated with Musk. However, I do have dash cams in both my vehicles that will start recording when the car is not running.

If I was driving in my car near a crime scene and discovered my dash cam recorded something that could be used as evidence, personally, I would call the local police and ask them if they were interested. However, to have the police discover my vehicle was in close proximity to the crime, and me not realizing my dash cam had recorded anything of value, and then the police try to impound my vehicle in a parking lot without my knowledge is outrageous!

The above situation is the result of two major realities: once again technology has emerged without adequate laws to deal with the consequences.(I realize this is usually the norm, law makers MUST speed up the process to protect citizens.) Second, police reform has to bring local law enforcement up to date with current reality. (The seizing of a vehicle based on possible crime info isn't protecting citizens, it's theft. Contacting the vehicle owner and requesting the info is serving the citizens, if they're not willing there is a court system.)

akimbostrawman
0 replies
1d21h

the driving panopticon is being used to spy. shocking

MichaelRo
0 replies
1d3h

We got a new expression it seems. Used to have "drive-by shooting", now we're gonna have "drive-by witnessing" :)