I've been loving the recent attention to mini PCs here. I've had hobby projects put off for a while as I tried to find the best R-Pi clone, only to buy one and struggle just to get it to boot. Then I pick up a used mini PC on ebay for like $42 shipped, power cord and everything and even a 500gb SSD. Now I have a server running at home and am actually working on projects again, oddly for probably less than what a Pi clone costs after you buy enough accessories to use it.
This is fantastic. Can you add a filter for location US/Europe/Asia?
Yes, should be easy. Would it work if it used the region's ebay marketplace to get results? The following could be added:
EBAY_AT - Austria (ebay.at)
EBAY_AU - Australia (ebay.com.au)
EBAY_BE - Belgium (ebay.com.be)
EBAY_CA - Canada (ebay.ca)
EBAY_CH - Switzerland (ebay.ch)
EBAY_DE - Germany (ebay.de)
EBAY_ES - Spain (ebay.es)
EBAY_FR - France (ebay.fr)
EBAY_GB - Great Britain (ebay.co.uk)
EBAY_HK - Hong Kong (ebay.com.hk)
EBAY_IE - Ireland (ebay.ie)
EBAY_IT - Italy (ebay.it)
EBAY_NL - Netherlands (ebay.nl)
EBAY_PL - Poland (ebay.pl)
EBAY_SG - Singapore (ebay.sg)ideally you would add regional popular second hand websites too.
I don't know about the USA but in most europe countries ebay is less and less the default place to look for second hand items.
What are some alternative EU sites?
leboncoin.fr in France, subito.it I believe in Italy, in Spain Wallapop.es although wallapop also exist in some of those euro countries, anibis.ch in Switzerland, I am not sure about the rest and I guess they don't have a public api so you would probably have to rely on web scrapping.
+1 for Wallapop in Spain. There's also MilAnuncios, but Wallapop is what people say when they say they want to sell second-hand stuff
I don't think there's an EU-wide site for used items unfortunately. Each country has a couple of local sites.
marktplaats.nl is the big "eBay-like" for the Netherlands.
Yeah that works too :)
region can help but Item Location is the important one
yes that'd be great!
and if the price could somehow include the shipping rate to the country, that'd be awesome
ebay isn't widely used in the EU. Sure the sites exist, but they're just filled with ads, not by listings put up by consumers.
You'd need to support national alternatives, like marktplaats for NL
Would be great to have a GB/UK version.
As others have said, a filter on item location would be ideal, but the region might also work. Specifically UK/GB for my use case :)
Thanks for putting the site together!
Yes please, this would be very helpful (I’m in Australia).
seconded, i've been looking for exactly this kind of machine in EU and this would be ideal.
which eBay marketplace do you use?
Spain.
I seconds that, without filters it is worthy of ending up on r/usdefaultism
Another approach for this if you're in europe (I do not know the market elsewhere) are the quality refurbished resellers (they buy bulk from companies upgrading, refurbish, sell with warranty).
Eg in France https://www.afbshop.fr/PC-Bureau or https://www.tradediscount.com/ordinateur-bureau/unite-centra...
Price might be a bit higher, but eg right now for sub 200 you can get a mini pc with ryzen 2400G and 16GB of RAM, with warranty. That's a great proxmox machine for jellyfin & co.
This is neat, although I have a word of caution (even if it might be a bit obvious): it's possible to find good deals, but you should be aware of power usage. There are modern mini PCs, such as those with Intel N100 processors, that are very cheap and consume very few watts while being useful for many purposes. I personally bought a brand-new CHUWI LarkBox X, and it's been great. It cost around 100 EUR on a deal. If however power usage isn't an issue for you and you don't care about other misc stuff (noise levels etc) then you can disregard this.
Does anyone have any useful rules-of-thumb or heuristics for balancing this trade off of upfront cost v.s. power cost? e.g. how much does an N100 cost to run for a year v.s. say a i5-2400s (the CPU for the first row on the linked site)?
I tried to find this out myself. All I could find easily was the TDP of different processors. But I'm not sure if it's a good measure of how much power it will use.
I went down this rabbit hole earlier this year. Best I came up with was to calculate the TDP at max for the whole year. Full TDP is unrealistic, but it gets us a worst-case "max running cost" . Energy for me is roughly $0.12/kWh, so the yearly max running cost for a 35W TDP is $36.79, 65W is $68.33, and the 95W would be $99.86.
I ended up going with a HP EliteDesk 800 G5 Mini I5-9500T (35W) off of Ebay for $100 and it does the stuff I need it to do just fine. According to my current monthly power usage graph, it's averaged 7W which accounts for $0.61 of this month's power bill.
The only real way of knowing is to measure it. If you already have a system in place an energy monitoring smart plug can help you calculate the current running costs and help estimate the savings of using a lower-power machine.
When I did this I was surprised by how much - or how little - it cost to run various devices. It's quite addictive.
It's not always accurate because a lower-power machine doing the same task will often need to work at its full power more often, so the savings may be less. For example, a Raspberry Pi 5 may often be more power effecient than a Pi 4, despite drawing more power at full capacity on paper, because it spends less time at full capacity than the Pi 4 does.
On the other hand, when I upgraded my work PC I found it used less power but I also had to run my office heater more often in winter, as the new PC wasn't as efficient at heating the space.
Yeah, exactly! I suppose that it's workload dependent to a great extent
No, sadly the TDP tells us every little about the idle power cost, which might be where you spend most of your time depending on the workload.
Just from tweaking my laptop, I’ve noticed that when it is really idle (or I’ve intentionally put it in a low frequency mode), the big power drains are the wireless interfaces (don’t forget bluetooth) and the screen (OLED helps as long as the screen is mostly black). Gotta tweak the whole thing.
I used to calculate costs of lightbulbs: 1 Watt running the whole year, at 0,28 eurocent/kWh costs 1 Euro per year. Until someone corrected me and it turned out that every 1 Watt 24/7 will be 2 Euro per year.
In the US electric power might be cheaper. And if it's running only part of the time, you should adjust the calculation.
My desktop/server runs 24/7, so I prefer having a CPU with 65W TDP over one that is 125W TDP. That might run up to 120 Euro per year difference for me (if it would be running at 100% CPU).
Real world energy use is nothing like what you see on spec sheets. And not just because manufacturers differ in how they compute TPD. And TPD is also not a good indicator for energy use at (near) idle. With underclocking/volting in the BIOS you can get a beefier CPU to outperform smaller CPUs per watt. Because CPUs get really inefficient as they use more power undervolted or capped high TPD chips might be much more power efficient in the real world than their low TPD counterparts.
My NUC13 with i3 has a nominal 15w TDP, but while idling on a KDE desktop with a browser open to reuters (1 tab) it hovers around 3 - 4w (5% CPU usage). If there's REALLY nothing going on (no desktop even) it's 1.0 - 1.3w (1% CPU usage).
Edit: I should note that there's no fan drawing power because I put it in an Akasa passively cooled case.
If a Kwh of power costs $ 0,30, then 1 watt = $ 2,63 a year. (0.001 kwh * 24 hours * 365 days * $ 0,30).
So, it goes quite quickly. Savings of 20 watt save you $ 52 a year.
I wouldn't automatically prefer any random N100 mini PC over a nice second hand enterprise mini PC.
In home server use cases, mini PCs stay idle the vast majority of their runtime. So it's idle power consumption that is the most useful metric to look into. The N100 can have great idle performance in theory, but most data I can find about N100 boxes is them idling in the 12W-15W range. This is something that older enterprise mini desktops have no trouble matching or beating [1]. Especially since roughly the Skylake era (Intel 6th gen), idle power consumption for enterprise PCs has been excellent - but even before then it wasn't bad.
Enterprise vendors like Dell/HP/Lenovo have always optimized for TCO and actually usually use quite high quality power supply circuitry, whereas most N100 mini PCs tend to be built with cheaper components and not as optimized for low power usage for the whole system.
[1]: I recommend reviewing Serve The Home's TinyMiniMicro project, which often finds the smallest enterprise PC form factors to idle at 8 to 13W, even older ones. Newer systems can get below 7W! https://www.servethehome.com/tag/tinyminimicro/
One can also do things like undervolting to reduce the power draw even more. Modern BIOSs can give a lot of freedom for underclocking/volting, not just pushing things to consume more power.
Reusing these boxes instead of having them thrown away and getting a new one built is better for the environment, though.
Agreed, an N100 mini PC can be a great deal. They also tend to be smaller. I added a separate Intel filter that includes a lot of N100s. But it might be better to buy those new, not used.
Power consumption is definitely a big deal. I replaced an old PC that I'd been using as an always-on device with a tiny PC (i7-8700T) and it saved a ton of power. Given that power rates in New England are around $0.30/kWh, saving 50 watts means saving $128/year. I went from using around 60 watts to 10 watts at idle (and going from 110 watts under load to 50 watts).
The new computer cost me $240 back in late 2022 (with 32GB of RAM and WiFi) so it'll basically pay for itself in electricity savings - and it's 3x faster than what it replaced.
ServeTheHome has some good reviews: https://www.servethehome.com/tag/tinyminimicro/. The tl;dr is just that there's good options from Dell, HP, and Lenovo and the differences are kinda minor, but it's a good source if you care about specific information and teardowns.
It's a great little machine, takes up almost no space, it's almost silent, and it was basically free with the power savings - in fact, once I pass the two year mark, it was cheaper to get the new hardware than to keep running the old.
And you can put Proxmox on it as a hypervisor to run multiple OSs or containers.
The N100s are everywhere, but I think the N305 with 8 E-cores is the bomb for a home server at slightly more power consumption.
For those wondering (like me) the normal price for the CHUWI LarkBox X is about $190.
Power usage on these mini pcs is actually pretty decent.
I have a bunch of SFF computers (Dell 7060, HP 600 G4, etc) with i7-8700 or similar CPUs. They all idle around 12 watts.
Most of the mini pcs use the T version of the processors, which are usually 35w TDP.
Power usage will definitely be higher than an N100 (65W TDP vs 6W), but they're a lot more versatile since you're getting more than double the performance, 2-3x the threads, and an iGPU that can do things like transcoding for plex and accelerate ML models for Frigate/Scrypted.
For reference, I thought I'd outline the baby PCs I use, since we're chatting about baby PCs. Maybe someone will find this useful. I use thinkcentre M92p SFFs for easy server boxes. Some things I like: - Bountiful - Cheap -- they can be had for under $100 each - Pretty powerful considering what you're paying, too! - Use common desktop parts for the most part - Accepts low-profile PCIe equipment ( network cards for ethernet, wifi; GPUs ) - Repair & replacement parts are CHEAP
Some things I don't: - I've had to do some ridiculous things to get them to behave after installing Linux, like tricking the BIOS to deal with UEFI correctly - It's basically impossible to get a better power supply, so you're limited with how much each one can do. Don't expect anything better than a very low-power, low-profile GPU for example. - There's not a ton of room in the case, so if you want PCIe stuff you will need low-profile. You can definitely stuff lots of hard drives in there if you work at it, though.
And, maybe someone has advice for me...!
I've had to do some ridiculous things to get them to behave after installing Linux, like tricking the BIOS to deal with UEFI correctly
Strange. I use Dell Optiplex Micros which are pretty much the same. I’ve never had a problem installing any Linux distros or hypervisors (Proxmox and XCP-NG)
I’ve bought 3 used Dells, mostly Optiplexes, over the decades for dedicated hardware for Linux based projects. They always seem like a good deal, and I surprisingly never have problems with them. These are fleet computers that get gently used during business hours that have IT departments that replace computers on a time schedule. Outside of one HDD that didn’t last a year of heavy file traffic I haven’t had really good luck with these machines.
These are fleet computers that get gently used during business hours that have IT departments that replace computers on a time schedule
Yeah these are the ones I'm buying too. Lot of banks have these for example as an all-in-one docked into a monitor. Sometimes they even have a small amount of Dell warranty left, though I've never ever had a problem with them.
Sometimes they even have a small amount of Dell warranty left, though I've never ever had a problem with them.
Yes, though technically any add-on warranty coverage or service plans are only available to the registered owner. I bought a couple Dell OptiPlex micros last year that were originally owned by a large organization. They were clearly being resold on eBay by someone who had acquired them in some sort of bulk purchase. Dell has a form you can submit to request that the registration be updated, but it requires you to provide contact information for the original owner. I asked the eBay seller if they for this contact information, but they said they did not. I was able to open a support request with Dell and have their records updated to show me as the owner after showing evidence that I had acquired the machines. This included a photo of them showing their asset tags along with a hand-written note that showed my support case number, as well as a copy of the eBay listings. I believe Dell checked with the original owner (a US federal agency) to verify the machines had been sold.
Thanks that's helpful. I still have two with warranty until January so I might try my luck with Dell
Same experience as you with HP Elitedesks. At work we used to use those for people doing regular office things. I have a few G2s (i5-6500) and they work flawlessly with Linux, including using my own secureboot keys.
It was so bizarre. I'd get a "No Operating System Found" message, and had to go toy with the UEFI config. Eek!
I've had to do some ridiculous things to get them to behave after installing Linux, like tricking the BIOS to deal with UEFI correctly
I would suggest going for a couple of generations newer - the M92p is from an era before UEFI became really stable. For automated testing of my startup's product we have a testlab of tens of older USFF desktops and the M700/M900/M910 machines are some of my favorites. They're also just before the cut-off for Windows 11 support so they're still available dirt cheap.
Two things to watch out for - the M700 lacks a PCI-E M.2 slot - the internal M.2 slot supports only SATA M.2 drives. Second, the front USB ports failing is a really common failure mode.
Ooo that's _gotta_ be what it is. Just the most bizarre UEFI issues. I luckily found an incantation that works in a pretty general way for M92ps, but had I not I'd have some bricks laying around.
Those M900s look REALLY nice!
I have some M910q that I am very happy with. UEFI is well supported, I was able to upgrade them to 32gb of RAM, i7 7700t and both a 512gb SSD and NVMe for mirrored storage. Highly recommended. Sure, it would be nice to get something newer than 7th gen, but it's still highly capable, small, quiet and fairly low power usage.
Would be nice if links opened a new tab. Good job.
Thanks! I think it's a better practice to not open links in a new tab i.e users should have control over their experience. But it can be subjective.
Think about it this way: Will the user "lose their place" on your page if they click a link and go back? Will the user lose any filtering or search options? If the answer is yes to either, open in a new tab. I personally make this determination all the time, especially on social media after I've scrolled a lot and don't want my "progress" to be lost.
That makes sense to me, thank you. I have changed links to open in a new tab.
Opening in a new tab has become some kind of standard UX. Regardless of that, for this kind of site it would be very useful for product spec comparison.
I’m a Ctrl-click kinda guy for these scenarios.
Always open in new tab. Ill keep track of the 437 I have open in 7 different FF windows, and the couple Edge tabs to hide cookies ThankYouVeryMuch
EDIT: Yes ctrl-click is too much effort. Middle-click even.
(Many forget a middle click on a mouse-wheel is also a ctrl-click/new-tab button, and the thumb button MOUSE4 is back)
I think not forcing links to open in a new tab is the right call.
However, the point about losing one's place is a valid one, and I agree with the other commenter that said it would be good to encode the state in the URL to solve that.
This is great! The one thing I'd say is that the market is rife with non-mainstream brands. As an example "Beelink" [0] and "Minisforum" [1] are very commonly referred to and have a lot of great models, but they're not well represented here and often times offer better value depending on what the buyer is looking for. My recommendation would be to expand the vendors into the popular non-mainstream brands. Easy ask, but harder to execute on your side - so I get it.
Also, AMD is crushing this market - but AMD is pretty under-represented here. There are also some great N-series Intel machines that are highly popular and you can get on AliExpress [2]. Or even more US focused brands under this umbrella like Protecli [3]
[0] https://www.bee-link.com/ [1] https://www.minisforum.com/ [2] https://www.servethehome.com/fanless-intel-n200-firewall-and... [3] https://protectli.com/
I took a risk on a Beelink and so far it's been the best piece of hardware I've owned. Affordable, quiet, reliable, excellent performance, versatile for development & light gaming.
I did a thorough audit for bloat- spam- & mal-ware due to their reputation, and it came up much cleaner IMO than my HP.
Given that they compete in price with Raspberry pi with far more capability, everyone should have one.
Agreed! Using a beelink as an htpc, and its been phenomenal.
They are simply not competent enough to install spam-ware.
The daily driver I am using to write this post is a Beelink with Linux installed. Very happy with it. Switched out the original 128GB SSD with a 1TB SSD. FFMPEG and light gaming run fine. My only minor regret is not starting with more memory, but I could probably switch that if I was motivated enough.
The one thing I'd say is that the market is rife with non-mainstream brands.
Brands in the far east are quite different and less important than in western markets; to me it seems there are say 5 manufacturers that build OEM products that 30 will relabel with their brand and put into their box, then give to 1000 sellers, each one running like 30 shops on Aliexpress, Ebay and Amazon. Numbers are totally made up of course, the point is that the name isn't that important over there as the very same product can be (and often is) rebranded in many different ways.
I have a Protecli 4-port firewall. It's the second one I've bought for this. It's really been excellent from a cost/performance standpoint.
It would be awesome if you included shipping in the total price(or at least for certain countries). I know bookfinder does that, as some people add an extra $100 to several hundred dollars to the price which skews the results.
I think ebay technically frowns upon excessive shipping as some sellers use it to get their items higher in certain search results due to a low base price, but ebay doesn't really apply enforcement to their sellers on these soft violations most of the time.
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It seems some of your filters like "storage type" are must include and when unchecking it all the results disappear, while others like "OS" seem like a filter and when unchecking the results increase.
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I'm not seeing many chromeboxes in the results so maybe they are being filtered out?
Thank you, I have fixed the "OS" filter to be must include.
Chromeboxes don't come up much for the search I'm using. I think I could try a separate search for them.
Regarding shipping, I'm not sure how to include it, since it requires the user's location, which would take this over the API limits. I'm going to add more marketplaces, and maybe product locations. Which country are you shipping to?
Maybe just take an average of shipping costs to a few locations (West coast Us, East coast US, Europe) and filter out anything where the shipping cost is greater than the cost of the product itself.
Or just get a shipping estimate to the same city as the seller is in.
Adding product location would be great! As a resident of the European Union I'm unlikely to order one of these mini PCs from the USA due to import taxes and additional shipping costs.
I think shipping costs varies wrt where you live.
A $38 lenovo cost me $633.90 with the shipping costs, from US to Switzerland i guess :D
The coolest ones I found:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/315406551868 https://www.ebay.com/itm/386903851995
I one I ended up getting: https://www.ebay.com/itm/296370169192?var=594356150752
That one you got is stunning value!
This site is fantastic.
Also - look at CyberPunk 2077 Crawler
https://github.com/itsOwen/CyberScraper-2077
By another HNer.
This site is great!.
Would be cool to use it as a template for any other category of "thing" -- if you could share it.
Stunning value indeed, they got more RAM than my M3 I use for work. Edit: oh wait there are drop downs to change the specs, subject is max specs but initial price is the min specs. Still good though
It's a shame that people need to use this template to design these sorts of eBay search sites though. Seems like it'd be easy enough for eBay to create a tabular view where one could choose fields applicable to their search - the same table that works for mini PCs could work for smartphones or comic books or collectable coins or whatever.
I suspect that doing so wouldn't be great for eBay's business though - the table is sortable, but eBay wants to sell promoted listings that are at the top of pages. And less dense search result views with big photos probably entice people to buy "shiny" things rather than specs.
The one you got is so cool. Can you leave this running 24x7 and is it noisy?
YES!!!! Usable ebay interface - very nice!
would be great to have a filter for country of origin/shipping
Makes you think about how most website are just junky interfaces atop relatively simple tables of data.
"value added and removed here"
Oh, how I wish I had better access to the eBay data .. currently they limit you to 5k requests per day.
Being able to filter by CPU (and model i.e. optiplex 3010 or whatever) would be useful here. I'm looking for a sff that has 13th gen intel cpu, supports 64gb ram as an example.
It’d also be neat if there was a way to sort by the passmark CPU benchmark score:
Came to suggest the same thing.
I’d love to be able to filter by CPU and generation.
Maybe using an LLM could help with the parsing?
Since there's hundreds/thousands of cpus and models, how about a keyword filter field?
Would it be possible to add a column with some kind of CPU score - for those of us who don't keep up on PC CPU advancements, it's hard to tell if an i3 5th gen is faster or slower than an i5 3rd gen
I did plan this, but upon getting the data, found it too difficult for the initial version. There's no standard for CPU (or most fields actually), so sellers write it in a variety of ways. But it could be done, after I compile a dataset of cpu > benchmarks.
I like passmark / cpubenchmark.net to get a good ballpark idea of CPU performance, because it covers a wide range of CPUs, and because it has both single-core and multi-core scores.
I prefer that too. Now to get data for all the listed CPUs!
I would love to see something like this but being able to sort on price/performance ratio (f.e. based on a CPU performance index in comparison to the price).
...and MIPS/Watt!
seconded. I cant keep up with all the variants on intels naming scheme.
What I'd really like to see is the curve! There's usually two "sweet spots", right? The minimum you should spend, and what you should expect at that point, and the point of diminishing returns, and what you should expect there.
Useful index!
Suggestions:
1. encode search filters in URL, for sharing/bookmark
2. Add "Intel vPro" as a filter.Good call, I'll encode the state in the URL.
Did not come across a lot of Intel VPros in my searches. What's the use case for them?
Many of the Dell/HP mini PCs with Intel i5 or higher are vPro, because they were used in corporate environments, but it looks like this is rarely part of the eBay item description. Thanks for checking.
vPro devices support Intel TXT (DRTM) to verify firmware integrity on each boot, based on user/OS policy. TXT can be used with QubesOS ("Anti Evil Maid"), Windows Virtualization-Based Security (VBS) or upcoming Linux Secure Launch in mainline Linux. vPro also supports optional remote KVM/serial management over LAN with Intel AMT, which could be considered a feature or anti-feature, depending on use case.
Site is currently timing out. If it's actually static, stick it behind free Cloudflare. But still - nice idea, thanks for the Show HN.
Does anyone know what the right searchplace is for media storage PCs? I'm considering getting something in this area that's a bit more sophisticated than a NAS but not a huge project to maintain.
Actually I did stick it behind Cloudflare..not sure why it would time out, since it's just an html page.
Huh, turns out to be a problem at my end, probably due to corporate firewall.
Cool. It would be great to be able to filter Intel vs AMD. Or perhaps even by processor family.
Sure, how about a keyword filter instead? That way you can filter by whatever instead of big filter lists cluttering the UI.
That would be good. Easy enough to filter Intel vs AMD that way as well as a particular CPU.
I would like to add power usage, noise levels, PCIe slots but that data is hard to find.
Maybe you can use an LLM to extract that data from reviews?
Anyway, I'd like to know if I can use the system for a home cinema, so it should be able to decode 4k resolution in real time (and shouldn't be too noisy). It would be nice if there was a checkbox for that usecase.
Reviews aren't common due to many listings having 1 item in stock.
What would the requirements for your decoding be?
What would the requirements for your decoding be?
Well, it should just play 4k content from various sources (and so various formats), using Vlc.
Reviews aren't common due to many listings having 1 item in stock.
I suppose you could use a (Google) search to find reviews elsewhere on the internet, based on the product name. Then feed them to ChatGPT, and ask it to summarize various things and build a JSON structure out of its findings. Maybe ChatGPT can even do the search for you.
This is really nice, and I just did this analysis myself.
It seems like the tool is missing some of the better deals, like Optiplex 3070 with 9th gen i5s for ~$100, entire working system included (this is what I ended up buying).
eBay uses a 'best match' sort on the results, perhaps that's why it was missed. What did you search for when you found this one?
I believe I looked up common machines with good prices, then searched for those individually, which obviously isn't going to work very well for this tool.
It would be great if the results can be filtered by the CPU generation. I'm specifically interested in replacing my 8th Gen mini PC and won't want to buy anything older than 8th Gen.
Seconded. You can do this on eBay by choosing specific CPU models, but it would be really helpful to filter more broadly. "Intel 8th gen" for sure, but it could also be useful to be able to combine that with, say, "Intel -T series" or "Intel i5".
The joy of living in Australia: $38.00 + $710.23 shipping
Don't bother with eBay, you can get refurbsihed ones in Australia too
A$115 example, https://www.australiancomputertraders.com.au/hp-elitedesk-80...
An option to filter by ECC RAM would be super helpful.
I wanted to add this, but that data is almost never entered by sellers.
I haven’t bought a Windows PC in 10 years so I thought it was time to upgrade the old tower I had in the closet.
I stumbled across Mini PCs and was surprised at how cheap they were so I brought one.
Turns out they were lying about the clock speed, citing 3.4Ghz when it was actually 1.7GHz.
I contacted their support to say the description was wrong but they said it was right. Don’t buy from KAMRUI.
refund/chargeback?
Given how dominant AMD-based options are from a new machine standpoint (you can get a pretty good 5000-series U-grade processor for less than $250 on Amazon) I’m kind of surprised by the lack of AMD options on the list. This is a useful idea though, but I wonder if the lack of AMD may be hinting at some variable that hasn’t been considered?
Most used PCs for sale started off as business machines. They usually buy from the big brands that can provide enterprise warranty support and volume discounts. AMD released Ryzen in 2017. Add up the time for AMD to convince Dell/HP/Lenovo to design, qualify, and release an AMD model. Add the time for significant uptake into the market. Finally add three years for the AMD PCs to get retired from office use.
Instant bookmark, thank you!
Wishlist: please allow filtering by Intel / AMD CPUs and Intel / NVIDIA / AMD GPUs. It's IMO important to know how many open drivers can the buyer use on Linux / BSD.
Another person mentioned this, so I will add this as soon as I can.
Been using a Beelink SER6 Mini PC, AMD Ryzen 5 6600H, 16GB DDR and 500GB NVME for the last year or so with PopOS as my daily driver and loving it. With a portable monitor makes remote work great for $351 and $100 for the monitor!
I have a beelink, have had no problems except the original SSD in mine failed suddenly in <1 year. I'd recommend anyone getting a beelink to swap out their SSD with a crucial, kingston, samsung brand etc before putting the pc to use.
I have been looking into mini pcs. The niche I want is a USB c powered hand sized pc. I have only found two on Amazon so far, one has a small screen and another close to the size of a small dock. But they are both underpowered with Celeron processors.
I just need something that i can take from one desk to another that carry docking stations.
I wanted to recommend Minisforum, as I have a um560, that is powered through usb-c. But that is not available anymore... So those kind of machines exist...
You could get a frame.work laptop in an external case, slightly larger than hand-sized, though.
Add a location filter otherwise it's completely useless from outside USA. I clicked on a $30 Ebay link and the shipping price is US $542.06 UPS Worldwide Saver
True, thought of this as a test run. Other locations should be added soon.
Are those boxes powerful enough and a sensible solution to get a little NAS up and running?
Depends on what "a little NAS" means to you, and what interfaces you need. But in general, most any PC made in the last 20 years would work for as simple and small storage server.
The eBay sellers who do the customization/price thing makes some of your price results misleading/unreliable as the price will be more on those than the base you have listed.
I found that to happen sometimes, so I marked customizable listings. But I think I was able to parse most of them to show the specs for the selected variation, not the parent or the title.
Maybe consider adding Fujitsu as a manufacturer. At least here in Europe they're fairly common in business environments so get tossed on ebay quite frequently. I've had very good experience with their stuff over the past decade.
Definitely do that. Old Fujitsu thin clients make awesome DIY routers.
I love it. But its been a bit of a "secret" that office PCs that are 3 years old are still very very good. I hope tech bros dont ruin this. Also lol at power consumption voes.
There are some refurbers that will take office PCs and put a modern-ish GPU, upgrade the PSU etc. That said, Mini PCs don't offer PCIe expansion most of the time, so a GPU upgrade isn't an option. Less appealing compared to new options.
That's very cool. I ultimately concluded that those mystery brand Chinese fanless mini pcs from Amazon (essentially laptop hardware in a tiny enclosure) offer a better deal. Minimal power usage, fast networking, real USB-C, and NVMe drive support. Old hardware is bulky, makes noise, and outputs too much heat. Even the truly tiny mini pcs -- the kind that fit in your back pocket -- are fast enough for a NAS or TV media player.
They are usually a lot more expensive because they come with newer CPUs.
Are you the same guy from https://diskprices.com ? Awesome tools! Would be nice to have ebay.de as well.
No, just was inspired by diskprices, thought it's great UX. I will be adding more marketplaces, .de included.
This is great, but the prices aren't accurate for the products listed. As an example, I filtered by the cheapest 64GB model, clicked on the link, and found that to actually get the 64GB it was multiple times the cost listed on the site. This was because if ebay's "variant" option, which is often misused by vendors.
I don't know if the ebay API allows you to check for variants to ensure that the price you are listing is the price for the actual variant listed or not?
Also in my quick glance, it didn't account for shipping costs either.
A CPU arch filter would be useful (I've been on the lookout for an ARM based one), as would the ability to choose a different eBay region (I'm in the UK). Nice work though!
A friend of mine has a few Dell Kace M300's which they run Linux on. Would that kind of thing be what you're looking for? It was originally an asset management appliance for businesses.
https://sudos.wordpress.com/2022/05/27/dell-kace-m300-or-fan...
the data needs a bit of a cleanup. I see N100 showing up with "Intel 100", Intel Alder Lake N100" and just "3.4 GHz" in various places.
Is this for the CPU column? That's actually one I spent the least time on, since there was so much variation with how sellers entered processors. I'll take a look at it, thanks.
Is it possible to run Linux on all of them (so remove existing Windows)?
If not, maybe add a checkbox for it.
Linux will run on basically any x86 box.
The question of "how well?" is mostly down to the fact that some GPUs and wifi chips have substandard support due to their manufacturers' refusal to document their driver interfaces.
ETA Prime has some advice on making a gaming machine out of cheap old PCs:
"You Can Build This Powerful Ultra Low Cost SteamOS 3 Gaming PC For Only $150"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFIgQ9zgXOk
Optiplex 7020 with a tower - not a "Small Form Factor."
"This Super Low Cost PC Runs SteamOS 3 Better Than The Steam Deck!"
Thanks for this! I've been meaning to get back into games but only keep a laptop at home and I had no idea that I could make a machine that could capably serve my needs for <£300 (32Gb Win10 i7 6700 with 256gb SSD (!), OK 2nd hand GPU) I spent my younger years always having The Best Machine I CoUlD afFord, but fifteen years later I just want something 'good enough' and it's nice to know I needn't spend over a grand to do so.
Thanks again!
A bit meta but nice job on the site design. Dense but very readable, filter controls are clear and with a minimum of unnecessary decoration. I wish more people still designed websites like this. Reminds me a bit of McMaster-Carr.
Had the same initial thought; the site design is simple and straightforward, but info dense and easy to navigate, similar to craigslist.
On the website itself, "OS" "Included" and "Not Included" is strange. I don't see that I need "Not Included", unchecking "Included" should show you everything but instead it shows you nothing. I don't see the value of "no os included" verses a copy of Windows that I will overwrite.
So I would just have an "OS Included?" checkbox.
I've always wanted to do something like this but for laptops too, and allow sorting by passmark score to find the best values.
You should have a filter for processor, feel the difference between ones like N100 and usual low end Intel processors is huge. Might be cool to list them with benchmarks too for people who don’t want to do research.
Could you add Geekbench scores? I‘d love that :)
+ $45 shipping :/
oooo, this is useful! It's a pain trying to search for these kinds of things manually, and it would be nice to get a whole stack of the kind of lenovo I have haha. Just need the UK region support :P
A lot of these things are pretty great for general use, home server, game emulation and htpc duties. From the N100 at the relatively inexpensive, to the Ryzen 8000 series at the mid-range with top tier cpu capabilities and decent igpu to the relatively high end monsters.
Except for gaming duties, if someone wants a desktop experience, monitor, kb, mouse then mini pcs are awesome.
I’m fascinated that a static site generator makes this! Is this a new concept?
Would have loved to see this site a few months back. I ended up buying Dell optiplex refurbs thinking they were minis, but they were big lol.
Edit: Nevermind - mine are the same size as many of the listings here with DVD drives. I was thinking of micros.
I still didn't move my main PC to a mini one because it's not that old and I don't feel like relegating it under a table, but migrating everything else to mini PCs (music, servers, firewalls, media players, ...) was the best choice ever; even the FreeBSD based NAS runs wonderfully on one of these small boxes. Unless one needs specific interfacing capabilities (GPIOs for instance) or serious performance which would need optimized airflow that only a bigger case could allow, the Mini PC form factor wins almost everywhere.
Great site, I'd love if it also took data from EU countries Ebay sites too, as buying from the US from here would inflate costs too much when adding overseas shipping and taxes.
This is cool!
It reminds me of when I got my own web "server"; I purchased it (for ~50€) after reading this post[0] back in 2017. The optiplex fx160 is still running to this day.
[0] http://thesizzlewo.webflow.io/blog/get-a-dell-optiplex-fx160...
Amazing! A few more filters (e.g location) and this would be an amazing tool for buying locally. bookmarked!
I love how simple this site is. It's fast, no navigation, etc. Kudos!
Websites like this talk to my heart. Strong early 2000s vibes of nerds just putting it out there.
Love this, thank you!
can we get a highcostminipcs plz
I've recently bought this Intel N100 mini pc https://es.aliexpress.com/item/1005006727722225.html and it's amazing. It even came with win11 preinstalled, an unexpected surprise for me. 16G RAM and 512G SSD for 100 euros, great deal.
This is cool. I frequently have a need for this. I also would love if there were a site for low power PCs.
Probably GMKtec is cheaper and better. I own one. https://www.gmktec.com
I really want a new motherboard form factor that gets rid of the graphics card slot and assumes integrated graphics. It should also aim to reduce the height of the back panel a little bit. Maybe allow 4 DIMM slots (ECC preferred).
I just upgraded my Mellori-ITX to 64GB RAM and have a 5700G to drop in there. This is possibly the best SFF config you can do in an AM4 socket:
https://github.com/phkahler/mellori_ITX
BTW we need USB ports ON TOP so you can plug stuff in without pushing the PC around the desk. Storage, not permanently attached stuff.
I'm waiting for next year, when the prices for old (intel 6th gen and below) mini-pc are expected to plummet, due to Windows 10 becoming obsolete. It would be sad to see them becoming e-waste, but hopefully some of us will grab them as they make great linux-based home servers.
Also, I have bought a lot of mini-pc and those with Intel 6th gen CPU seems to offer the best bang for bucks, at least for my needs. (I don't really need powerful system, since I"m mostly using them for dedicated obs streaming or light video encoding or homeassistant).
Pretty neat! Any plans to make it work for people not living in the US too?
This is great —- my world has mostly been Mac laptops and cloud servers for the last 15 years, and recently decided I wanted a physical server in my office to use as a dev box.
I ended picking up an 5 year old Dell Optiplex SFF on eBay for $75. I added a few sticks of RAM and a new SSD, installed Ubuntu server, and it’s been great. Super fun and easy to pop open and work on.
I sort of want to start grabbing these for anyone I know who needs a basic computer.
Gotta throw in a mention of my fav: Odroid H2/3/4(1) $125ish for an SBC with Intel N/J series CPU, DDR4/DDR5, up to 32G RAM, SATA, Dual Ethernet etc. I have the old H2+ series and LOVE them :-)
This is only of limited usefulness if you want to buy a new mini PC (rather than specifically a used unit from eBay). For example, many current fanless models are not listed. Just searching for “fanless mini pc” on Amazon.com gives many more (and some cheaper) results.
This might be a task for an LLM-supported scraper looking at a number of online marketplaces, retailers, and manufacturer sites. Then, conversely, you could link to matching eBay listings. It would also need a mechanism for users to submit spec corrections.
I had largely written off eBay some years ago after some bad experiences -- but this tool just showed me some pretty insane deals on custom PC builds over there.. Neat.
I like your prototype, and people are already giving fantastic hints to make this even better; information about the geographic location of the offer would be my priority (EU).
This is particularly useful from an environmental point of view - all these machines can serve a good purpose for decades to come. Mini PCs use less energy, and every used machine re-used means one PC less built, saving minerals and energy.
I recently installed a DELL Micro-PC, which I intended as an X11-Terminal. It turns out that it's also a fine machine for most local work like editing and email (except machine learning and heavy development work), so more beefy machines can stay off.
This is a great idea. I ahve a similar set of searches on eBay for when I was buying these things.
You should consider putting some affiliate links in so this continues to exist and grow.
You are helping people save money, which doesn't cost them anything, and if anything makes ebay make less.
I have a ton of ideas for htis that I use to narrow it down even more - starting with the CPU can be a good place. Generation, wattage, etc.
This is really neat! I would love to see something similar for laptops. I bought a used Lenovo T80s (8th generation i5 CPU / 8GB of RAM / 256GB SSD) for 150$cad on eBay to work on my product (web app) and it is working flawlessly with Debian.
I had a laptop running Windows for 12 years as my home server, hidden in a closet. It ran a couple of c# apps as a service and was an ftp server as well. Last month I decided to buy a raspberry pi (4B 2GB) to scratch multiple itches (arm processor, linux, low power consumption) and it replaced the server without a hitch, and better than I thought!
No weird splash screens from windows after updates, 2GB is vast for me when running headless, dotnet apps ported with minimal effort, and the list goes on. Only downside is the USB can only power one external 2.5" hdd, and I didn't want to add a powered usb hub.
You can probably find better deals from PC shops selling refurbuished enterprise PCs (Lenovo, Dell, HP)
Nice. Could you please add also the postal costs to the sort? My very first trial showed me a 38$ PC with 500$ postal cost. I'm located in Europe, but still ???
Very nice! Would be nice to filter by NVMe as well. Also, one of the listings didn't come with a power adapter which was some custom lenovo thing. Finally, you totally should include your affiliate link.
This is wonderful i'll be using this a lot. Would be great to see a filter for Tiny vs Mini as well as CPU. AMD/Intel and i3 i7 i9, etc, maybe even generation, etc
This is awesome. I used to build a lot of stuff with various single-board computers (Raspberry Pis, etc) but realized I could get way more performance and expandability with these mini PCs if the form factor didn't require it.
One other thing I'd be interested in: not just mini PCs but used office workstations. I realized that many offices were selling old workstations that were often just a few years old with things like dual Xeon chips and 64GB of RAM or more with support for a few hundred GB for only a few hundred $. Things like 2ish generation old HP Z400/Z600/Z800 series. They make for great home lab virtualization machines and can often support 2+ GPUs and a boatload of additional peripherals. I'd love to see something like this that lets you find those as well
Dude, why are the filters not url encoded??? This makes sharing a specific config to my mates so annoying
Neat. Can you add a filter for international buyers? Non-us
Are old capacitors still a problem on modern PC motherboards?
A decade ago they would only last a decade which would make some of these boxes near EOL
Core count is something I would add to the table. These mini PC are good for hobbyists, they are cheaper, stable, faster and easier to maintain than Arm SBCs I have get four of them since pandemic. I can’t wait to see what happen when hyperscaler retire their A100s/H100s.
This looks great! I love the Cragislist like UI for this!
It would be very helpful to know which PCs support power over USB-C and video, e.g. I can connect it to display with single cable.
I've been using a $35 rpi4 for years, it's been a significantly better experience and cost ($0 after initial purchase) than any abstracted PaaS/IaaS I ever tried, and performance is significantly better than the free or hobby tiers. With no need for regional deploys or to have devs contributing from all over, there's not a huge need for cloud. Also kinda nice knowing all my customer data and other PI is at my house instead of at Google's or Amazon's house. Remember when Twitter and GitHub were storing passwords in plain text for years? So yeah... the peace of mind of knowing a 22 y/o at their first job is not making security decisions with my data and infra! Let alone the fact these companies sell your data including your IP - you agree to it in their terms.
Beyond this stuff, I always found the UX of IaaS like AWS/GCP/etc. to be a nightmare, particularly the IAM experience. Not just navigating their awful dashboard pages, but learning their brand-specific jargon, managing service accounts, staying up-to-date on latest marketing and service breakdowns for every little thing - it quickly takes over your attention (and budget). Not to mention, using IaaS feels like devolving from a modern developer to an early 00s IT specialist. AWS feels less like "infrastructure" and more like a modern take on cPanel but with far less visibility/control over the server.
I digress... in 2021 I copy/pasted my "mono-server" setup from Heroku over to the Pi 4 with vanilla Raspbian and it's been running 24/7/365 ever since. It powers 15+ APIs/backends including a booking engine for a local business in SF, some real-time socket servers for games, and there's both a SQL (postgres) and NoSQL (mongo) server running too. I attached a touch screen that shows the console output in fullscreen, and I velcro it to my wall. It looks like a smartphone charging on my wall or a smart thermostat or something, but it's nice to be able to walk up and see how things are doing. Feels better than checking any dashboard.
I've had to restart it only twice over the years. A couple times it just stopped responding to requests, though didn't appear to be frozen. I could stop it and npm start again but nothing. When this happens, have to fully restart and run IPTABLES stuff again to put it back online. However - that's mere minutes spent each year rather than spending significant time every single day in an IaaS or PaaS.
Thanks for sharing this awesome list, I'm due for an upgrade pretty soon and I am so glad to see so many low cost options. My hope is that more developers get into these mini PCs around the world, and I imagine a future where the Big Cloud providers play a much smaller more specific role (government data, public domain computing) rather than being the de facto platform for hobby/startup projects. Even things like regional deployments and distributed/"serverless" computing can be accomplished with networks and proxying without giving it all away to a major cloud provider.
I am currently using a Beelink SER8, a very decent powerful mini PC for its price. It is also the most quiet mini PC I have used.
I have found that laptops with cracked or scrached screens offer a much better value in terms of newer hardware. The battery acts as a built in UPS.
For example this laptop:
Dell Latitude 7400 Intel i7-1165G7 16GB 256GB NVMe SSD
Is $180 shipped.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/266969891671?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid...
It would be great if it would support other eBay sites than just .com, not everyone is in the US :)
What a great idea! I love checking DiskPrices; the structure does lend well to mini-PCs (another interest of mine). Bookmarking this for my next shouldn't-grab-this-but-price-is-too-good impulse buy.
Cant recommend anything based on intel N100 enough. Power draw is about 13w but absolutely excellent performance. Bought several "Firebat" ones from AliExpress
I wonder if this is kind of a semi-panic selling because of Windows 10 supposedly going away next October 2025? (Except MS holding us hostage for a yearly fee!)
Fantastic gathering of used PC's, but buyer beware, there are a lot of options that are worth studying before purchasing.
I'm guessing this was inspired by https://labgopher.com?
A lot of these are not what I would call "mini," but I like the idea.
Is it a static list of manufacturers/models? If so, I feel like it would be worth putting that on GitHub so that the community can help maintain it. For example, I know there many fanless PCs on the market but the site is only showing me three and they are all fairly expensive.
Any plans to add websites besides eBay? When I am hunting down a SFF PC for a project, I generally try to at least look over what is on offer from AliExpress, NewEgg (clearance), Dell Refurbished, Lenovo Refurbished, Microcenter, and a variety of websites for second-hand business IT recyclers.
now do the same for europe with € prices...
Very cool. It would be helpful to allow search on processor architecture and power draw as well.
For UK shoppers looking for a cheap laptop, the Dell Latitude E7240 is a solid machine [1]. For about £50-£60 delivered you can get a 12.5" machine with a ~4th gen i5, 4-8GB of RAM and an SSD. It's great for Teams/Zoom and the keyboard is very nice to type on.
My personal one has 12GB of RAM (4+8) and two SSDs (there is a spare slot for a half size M.2. inside). You can abuse the hell out of them and they take it.
[1] https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=Dell%20Lati...
A filter on socket/gen would be useful. Otherwise, it's a great tool! Thanks for sharing.
This is great. I wish there were something similar to find hardware to run AI models locally.
Very cool. Can you add support for eBay Germany (ebay.de)?
data on ECC ram support would be helpful, since it's needed for ZFS.
Neat! I'd love a column for external disk I/O type. I've been trying to build a NAS on a new N100 miniPC but am foiled by the fact that the devices all only have USB ports for I/O. And USB is not reliable enough to run ZFS with a heavy load (kernel errors). I'd love to have something with eSATA or some sort of PCI option.
sorting based on the processors, release date, or by performance single slash multi-core would be interesting.
This is super cool! Now if only my ISP would give me a static IP address so I could expose port 51820 on one of these things and life would be perfect.
difference might be that a Raspberry Pi consumes < 10W.
An old PC draws easily 5-10 times more energy.
Depending on your location, the yearly cost of running a Pi is around ~10$. The big machine then 50-100$. So energy wise, a small power efficient machine might be more expensive but the running cost could be lower.
Here's examples of idle power consumption of second hand mini-pc's i've tested, running Ubuntu, measured from the wall:
Dell Wyse 5070 with Pentium Silver J5005 ~ 5W
Fujitsu Futro S940 with J5005 as well ~ 7W
Dell Optiplex 3080 Micro with i5-10500t ~ 12W with two SSD's
In comparison, my Ryzen 7 server build consumes about 22W idle (before I added GPU), has 4x SSD and 4x RAM sticks. I like raspberry pi, but for most purposes an used mini-pc is a better choice.
The RPi Zero 2 W consumes ~ 0.6W when idling, and costs $15 new, or in the $25-30 range with a case and USB power adapter.
Pi 4 is the smallest thing that would be remotely comparable to even a 14nm-era atom NUC in terms of usability as a fileserver etc
The RPi zero 2 is nowhere near powerful enough to be used for multiple purposes as any of the above machines.
It could probably run a single-task relatively well, like PiHole or something, but otherwise it's in a completely different performance category. Like an order of magnitude.
So 6W idle for J5005 would put it on the same level of efficiency.
Talking about building a server with a Zero 2 W is a bit of a stretch. I have some running as airplay and Spotify connect clients + some environmental sensors but much more would be pushing it...
Not only excess power draw, but excess heat, which then needs more power for the AC to cool the home
I have a little Intel i5 behind me all year long, and I don't notice any effect on the temperature of this (small) room. 12 watts is not a lot of heat to be dumping.
This is really small fry compared to other HVAC efficiency concerns, and definitely not an issue outside of summertime temps in most locales.
My Threadripper on the other hand - I had to move that into the crawlspace as it was: a) loud as hell, and b) basically a space heater that also does useful compute. 160w idle, ~280w full tilt - that thing is very noticable.
This is exactly why I upgrade my old 2012 server. I was able to cut the power usage (and heat generation) by over 90%.
It makes a big difference in the summer, but I miss it during the winter.
As others have said, this needs to be qualified. My HP Elitedesk 800 G2 SFF qualifies as "old" I think, yet it draws 14-15W at idle, measured at the outlet.
It has an i5-6500, 32 GB RAM, 2 SATA SSDs and a 4-port i350 NIC (all ports up). Idle means OpnSense and HomeAssistant running inside KVM on top of whatever kernel version was current in Arch at the time, but with no traffic.
Does the raspberry pi draw 1-3W only? It should be noted that old pcs like these can be had extremely cheap, so the difference in price should take this into account. Moreover, if you need extensions of any kind (NICs, drives), getting them running at all on a PI is somewhat more involved than on a standard PC.
I have owned gen 5/6/7/7 devices, Gen 8 delivers the idle power much more honestly and it can be measured quite easily.
In either case, USFF is an order of magnitude less energy than desktop so it's still a win most of the time.
Agreed. Related, disappointingly, the new pi5s don’t have much in the way of running in a lower power state. I gather it’s mainly the cpu, but my new pi5 runs hot doing a whole lot of nothing. Cooling solution is pretty much required. I am very content with perf, but it actually brings too much juice to the table for the tiny apps im running. Sure, another soc would be a better fit power wise, but the ecosystem keeps me locked in!
I agree, might buy another pi 4 for my next project. The new chips are interesting though.
It's a fair point but as others have noted, these mini PCs can be very power efficient. I still need to hook up a meter to mine to see what the wattage is but I'm sure it's far below a typical desktop PC.
My mini PC I use as a router with an N3710 CPU uses like 5W idle with a SATA SSD. It's a 6W TDP. Running full tilt is like 10W.
Have a used HP Prodesk 600 G3 with 16GB RAM running idle around ~12W. Bought it last year and its been running solid so far.
mini PCs are < 10W also.
I have a full on Dell Optiplex 3070 (i5-9500, 1x16GB memory, 512GB NVMe) running windows 10 that idles at 8W.
I have a lenovo m92p tiny (i5-3570s, released 2012) that idles at 6W.
As noted in my other comment, my SFF computers with i7 CPUs idle around 12W. Roughly $20/year with my usage in a home server setup.
I've switched to a minipc as my main computer. I'll never go back. Went from a 16 core monster to whatever 4 cores this thing has and it's just as nice.
I wonder why you switched and not use your 16-core PC? did it somehow broke or do you just like the benefits of a minipc?
Not who you are replying to, but likely: 1) heat 2) fan noise 3) power consumption.
I recently (8 months ago) replaced my 10 year-old laptop. The only reason I retired it was because the display was starting to go.
So I bought a second-hand workstation-class laptop with 6 beefy CPU cores and kinda wish I hadn't. Overall I want to like it but the battery life is abysmal, it makes a lot of heat even when fairly idle, and is a bit heavy due to the large heatsink inside. (And that's without a dedicated GPU.)
If I had to do it over again, I would trade it for one with a weaker but more power-efficient CPU.