Just used it yesterday. It's a great little app to browse OSM data as it is. Much better than Google Maps at finding walkable trails. If only it had the features of overpass turbo, e.g. searching for points tagged with specific attributes.
That's why AppStore monopolize are such a chore. There is no independent judicial authority if something between Google and a App Provider goes wrong. Google playing legeslative, executive and judiciary in one entity.
There is a reason most people in democratic countries don't like it, if there country has all the powers in one hand. At the same time it seams to be accepted for cooperation, as long as there are big enough.
This isn't as much of a problem on Android because it allows installing apks. There's plenty of apps that couldn't possibly be allowed in Google Play that are distributed using alternative means.
It's a much more serious problem with iOS, where if Apple doesn't like your app, your service, your policies, or even your attitude, you just aren't getting your app out to your users, period. But we'll see where EU DMA takes this.
It's about distribution and being visible.
If you are not on the Play Store you lose the majority of your installations.
It's like a musician who is not on YouTube and not on Spotify.
Or a website that is not on Google Search.
IMO not quite. Here's how I see it:
- Generic utility apps, the kind that you would search by what they do, like an audio player, an image converter, or a file manager — yes, it works for them like you say.
- Those free to play mobile games everyone knows and loves (no). They buy stupid amount of ads to get people to install them. They may get some installations thanks the app stores themselves, e.g. from the top charts, assuming they get high enough there. So app stores do play a role in their visibility, but a limited one. And this is where it ends.
- Apps for IRL services, like getting around (taxi/scooter rental/car sharing), or ordering food, or many other similar things. They get popular because people see their logos around them all the dang time, often together with QR codes with download links. They also often buy ads. Sometimes people recommend them to each other. App stores don't play any significant role for these.
- Apps for something you already use. Like your home utilities, or your bank, or some sort of "smart" device you got, or loyalty programs. Again, you don't discover these thanks to app stores, you usually install them because that company says "we have an app, get it here".
- Social/collaboration apps, the kind that are useless without people you know also using them. No one searches app stores for "social media" or "messaging" or "calls". People recommend them to each other. People see that their friends are on there and get on there too. Again, app stores don't do much here.
You're right that discoverability is not really the issue.
However, I still agree with the GP that if you are not on the Play Store, you lose most of your installations.
If someone has already discovered your app and can't find it on the Play Store, they are more likely to assume that it's not supported on their phone, unavailable in their region or whatever. Even if you explicitly tell them to just download the APK, most people will not do that. Keep in mind that the average user probably doesn't even know that you can install apps from outside the Play Store. Or even if they guess that it's probably possible, they might well perceive it as complicated and sketchy.
I don't understand how does one come to this conclusion. In my own experience, most people will do what you ask them to do as long as your instructions are clear enough. Downloading and installing an apk on an Android phone is no different than downloading and running an exe on a Windows PC, which is something people do all the time. No one perceives Play Store as inherently more trustworthy. I know many non-tech people who have and use sideloaded apps on their phones.
Edit: it might be different for younger generations who grew up with modern smartphones.
While people don't discover these apps on the play store, they will hear of the App, search on the App/Play Store and install it. If they can't find it by typing the app name into the search bar there, they won't install it.
I doubt most users will, even when given the link to an .apk, install it. Either because they are discouraged by the alarming prompts (in my opinion a tradeoff that is unfortunately worth it) or because they get lost.
As someone who just started a business and released my first android app a few weeks ago, you couldn't be more right.
Not only is the fate of your app in the hands of the Play Store, but also in the hands of their testers. Just had a critical bug in an update release 5 days ago, affecting fresh installs. I immediately fixed it after a friend notified me, pushed the fixed update, only to wait till yesterday to get rejected due to a super minor ui issue. Then finally got approval this morning. Typically I waited 30 min for approval, 2 hrs the longest.
During that time I reached out to their non-existent customer support, messaged their "help forum", called any number I could find, finally resorted to randomly messaging employees on LinkedIn out of desperation. Nothing. And when you try to get support through their help options, it's a gamble as to whether or not the help option you select is going to give you an error. Not to mention any number you call ends with "please visit support.google.com. thanks for calling".
In the meantime, I had ~300+ uninstalls out of the ~1200 I had, and risked my 4.8 rating tanking and sinking my chances of success before I even really started.
That's just my story. There are people who are facing even worse rn dealing with them and have been waiting for weeks.
It's like a musician who is not on YouTube and not on Spotify.
There are plenty of musicians who are perfectly happy not being on YouTube or Spotify.
It's almost like a protest, at this point - and I don't mean like a boycott either.
Good luck getting a regular consumer to agree to all the scary warnings presented when you do that.
I didn't even read the warnings to install fortnite, but it seemed Apple tried to make it as confusing as possible. Click install, go to settings, white list the provider, go back to the browser, click back to try installing again ... and then finally, click "yes I am sure" then click "yes I am sure" like 3 more times.
So complicated.
On Android, there isn't really a scary warning. You have to allow whatever app you're installing the apk from to install apps form "unknown sources". That's it. You only have to do it once per source.
On iOS, I'm sure the EU regulators will demand that Apple at least tone down their warnings.
You can't show up in Android Auto unless you're distributed through the Play store (third party things like F-Droid and side loading means your app doesn't show in the car).
Distribution is everything. Controlling distribution through defaults (play store already installed), barriers (pop ups warning you that installing other apps is risky), etc is monopolistic.
Do you really want the government being deeply involved in how every company defines and enforces their own terms of use?
In this case I'm not sure why Google would pull Organic Maps. That doesn't mean we need the government playing a role in defining ever company's terms of service, deciding when they're broken, and enforcing the punishment. How would that even scale?
Yes, I absolutely do, thanks.
How would you see that scaling? Are you talking about governments defining what can't be in any terms of service? Or would you prefer to see governments directly working to both define Google's rules, determining when an app breaks them, and having the government decide when to pull an app?
Does any company like google offer support or dispute resolution that "scales"?
I would assume so, yes. There must be at least a few meeting the bar of "any."
They already are. Most countries have consumer laws that limit terms and conditions. The same in many other areas (residential renting in many countries, exclusions for negligence that causes injuries or death,....).
Most countries have competition laws that also restrict what companies can do. That is the point here. We need need government intervention when the market lacks competition.
Maybe I misread the GP comment, but there is a big difference in governments defining guard rails for what isn't allowed in any T&Cs and governments being involved directly in every T&Cs.
Yes, but providing fair appeals does not require the government to be involved in evert T & C, just requiring things such as approvals be carried out impartially, and with some channel of appeal.
Something like an Ombudsman scheme for app stores would do it.
That seems reasonable enough. Down with governments and regulations and all that nonsense, but in reality I don't see a problem with governments setting reasonable guard rails for what any T&Cs can or must include.
It's exactly how it works. If some behaviour is anti-competitive, it is the role of the government to correct it.
In this case I'm not sure why Google would pull Organic Maps.
Exactly. Someone competent should decide whether that is an anti-competitive move or not. Noting that a "mistake" may be anti-competitive and may deserve a fine.
That someone is a government.
I may have just misunderstood the GP. I read it as wanting the government to directly work on defining and enforcing Google's terms of service rather than this being an anticompetitive concern.
Feels unrelated to me. The problem here is that the entity that owns Google Maps also owns the Google Play Store, and uses their ownership of the Google Play Store to favour Google Maps versus competitors.
Even without a monopoly, it should be illegal for the owner of a popular app store to promote their products like this.
They just need to get big fat fines when they do it. But of course, "it was an unfortunate mistake". Or we should just split them: Google Maps could be out of Google.
I don't think it's true that the Google Play Store favors Google-created apps. In fact, while it may have happened, I can't even remember a time that the Play Store recommended a Google app to me.
Is that sarcasm? You forgot the /s.
Google will never "accidentally" or even because of a justified policy remove any of their own apps from the store. That's a big favor right there.
The answer to that is "structural separation". Remove even the possibility of conflict of interest by forcing divestiture.
When app stores act in a way that puts their own interest ahead of the user it harms security, especially when there is no transparency.
If I want this app I am now being sent to download an APK, I lose all the protection of the app store. If they cry wolf enough people will get used to doing that. Then when something comes along that is harmful and they want to yank it genuinely to protect users, people will still download the apk.
And here's the Fediverse post about the incident if you don't want to click on a twitter link https://fosstodon.org/@organicmaps/112976308191001762
It would be better if the HN submission link was updated, as it has way more engagement than on X.
— Stop linking to Twitter/X !
— But that’s where the information is.
— Stop linking to Twitter/X, here’s a Fediverse link with more information.
— But it has fewer engagement.
— Stop linking to Twitter/X, here’s a Fediverse link with more information and more engagement.
— …
— OK, at some point, you need to recognize that you are the problem.
Why “stop linking to X”?
Why does posting there make a user a “problem”?
Who’s the judge of what’s a “problem” and what are the criteria, I wonder.
Why “stop linking to X”?
As someone without a Twitter/X account, their links are bad. I can only see the first post of a chain, can't see replies, etc. Mastodon is better in that regard.
This has nothing to do with the content of the platform, Musk, etc, btw. It's just the fact that now it's a bit hostile for logged out users/people without accounts. It used to be fine, but now it hides content, which is bad for me.
It used to be fine
It was always awful, in my opinion. Twitter does a good job at letting people publish "sound bytes"; little bits of what's on their mind. Past that (into longer form and discussion) it has never been good.
Right, it was never a good platform for longer posts, but before at least you could try to follow the different posts. Now, public links only show one post and that's it.
Yep, exactly. Twitter makes no sense at all from the perspective of a non-user. Posts are all over the place, no coherent order.
It only motivates me to avoid the platform.
Why stop linking there? X hides threads. If you click a link, you can't see a thread. If you are logged in you can see it, but you can't see it if you aren't logged in. So, you can one little post, and frequently you miss a lot of other information in the replies. See ANY post on where the person is posting more than one single post. Basically, if you link to a post there, the person reading it usually won't get the full story.
Why is posting there make the user a problem? Because, if the user is trying to communicate something, they are choosing a platform that isn't interested in making it effective at communication. A closed off community isn't the town square it claims to be. If you are communication on that site, you can be sure people directed aren't getting the full story.
Who's the judge? Me. I am the judge of what a problem is. So is the parent poster you were replying to. They are also a judge. It's odd that you hand off opinions to others and don't make your own.
1. You will notice Hacker News does not require a login to view content - this simple approach is a big reason why twitter links are looked down upon. The platform used to foster simple sharing, and now does not. It is in effect, telling you to stop sharing things publicly and only with twitter users.
2. Because you are basically linking to a deep link in the dark web.
3. We all get to make our own decisions, and the person calling out shitty websites that you should not bring to the group has my support.
The UX to people without accounts is actively hostile. That's why.
If someone was telling me to look up information from a print edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica from the 1970s, I'd have the same problem: it is an absurd thing to ask of me because there are better, more frictionless ways to obtain the information.
Reading anything on Twitter is (subjectively) miserable. The platform is good only for since thoughts / sound bytes; not long articles (spread across many posts) and discussions. It's _worse_ if you don't use an account so you can't see anything but the first post... but it's awful even if you can see the whole thing.
I don't know who was the first moron who decided to post the first "long form writeup" on a platform that only supports blurbs... but I am absolutely amazed that people thought it was a good idea and followed suit.
Why “stop linking to X”?
Clicking on almost any of the UI elements leads to a log in prompt, without showing anything else. For people without accounts (or those who don't want to make one), that's probably not functionally different from dropping a link to some forum that requires registration, albeit in this case I guess at least the main post is visible.
The Mastodon link in comparison has the discussion visible up front, which is nice to see! Now whether the fediverse is popular enough to actually have good discussions, that's a bit harder to say, but at least it's something!
I think Facebook also had similar issues, where it gates a lot of things behind a login prompt, quite user hostile, though also understandable why they'd do it that way.
You got me to click, thinking there would be some kind of insight, but then I was greeted with people arguing over "last night" vs "that night" typo.
Humans will always be humans, independently of the platform. :-P
In any case, at least we can see the replies and other posts from the account without having to create an account. Still better than Twitter/X in my view.
Humans will always be humans, independently of the platform. :-P
While true, I'd much rather read discussions on HN than say X or even Reddit these days.
I had a good laugh at this, how ridiculous
I did the same thing (and then downvoted the guy who suggested it was better!) It was much worse than the discourse on Twitter, with folks hurling insults at each other and saying things like "don't turn this into [X]itter".
@dang
FYI, that does nothing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27545206
The killer feature of Organic Maps is that you can download the maps for the entire world (yay OSM!) and not have to depend on signal or having a data plan.
Super important for intentional travel or nature (National parks often have no signal).
It's blazing fast — far snappier than other map apps I've used. And OSM data is better than Google's for hiking and biking.
The POI database isn't as detailed, and you wouldn't use it to find an espresso shop near you (...yet). But it's much better as a map app.
I encourage everyone to improve OSM and add the not found POIs not only to appear on Organic Maps , to make everyone to have a open database of geolocated information
How would you do that from an Android phone? I've found myself wanting to update OSM/Organic Maps info many times.
The Android app StreetComplete is an excellent start for updating OSM I found. There soon become occasions when you have to bring out the big guns and edit it using the web editor at https://www.openstreetmap.org/ , which is possible to do on a mobile phone if it has a big enough screen, but much easier on a laptop.
From my experience the best one currently is EveryDoor. But even if you just use Organic Maps, it has some basis functionality to add and edit places.
StreetComplete is also great and very beginner friendly, but it is mostly for completing missing information for existing places. However, I think quite recent addition was that now you can actually add new places. Haven't used it much though.
I haven't tried it myself, but I think https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/StreetComplete
How big is that download?
In practice you download the areas you need, by chunks of 30-100 megs. An area would include a few cities. In Europe.
Isn't offline maps also a feature for google maps? I use it for my home region and also for any time I travel
Yes, you need downloaded maps. I'll have to compare this with what I get from GaiaGPS.
For companies like google, I feel like the opposite of Hanlon's razor applies, which makes:
Never attribute to stupidity that which is adequately explained by malice.
s/malice/avarice.
The polite way to say this is "following the incentives".
It may be incompetence. Most of big tech today no longer understands why someone would build an app, a business, or a project for reasons other than seeking to extract money from the market. It is ironic, because most of the big tech companies are only as successful because they initially offered products with vision and purpose, rather than as means simply to extract revenue at the lowest cost.
They are not entirely wrong to view the market this way. Most apps and projects are built these days primarily as means to extract revenue from the market at a low cost. Sometimes they are so much this that we call them grifts, and there have been many in tech recently, and certainly on the Play Store. But there are still some companies with better values.
This is a long way to say that unless an app/project/business/website is evidently monetized, it can probably be assumed it's monetized by selling data or ads. Likely, this assumption was made by the reviewer here, there may even be guidelines about it.
To some degree, it would even benefit consumers to do such a reality check too before they buy products and subscribe to services — is this a visionary purpose-driven product, or one that seeks to extract money from me as its primary goal? If latter, how do they do it — in evident ways, or through selling data or ads/influencing? But one must be able to see nuance that not everything in the world is built for the capitalistic objective. Sometimes, cool things are built, art is made, and inventions are made to better the world.
Overall, it is a problem that they don't see this nuance which made Google successful in the first place. It is clear across their business, products and services. But I think it is not unexpected.
An app shot down because it doesn't grift in an evident way, under an assumption it grifts in a hidden way — it's not the most wrong decision in the world. It just does not demonstrate competence either.
Regarding Maps, Google long ago forfeited the benefit of doubt:
https://www.slashgear.com/google-blames-rogue-contractors-fo...
Hanlon's sledgehammer.
Incompetence at scale is malice.
In this case both options seem to apply at the same time
Hanlon's razor applies well to situations where social power is relatively even.
Once power is sufficiently uneven, the stupidity of the powerful is no different than their malice, for with that power comes the greater responsibility to avoid doing harm with it.
Why does Google communicate like this? Anyone reviewing OraganicMaps will instantly judge it not to be some scam or malicious app. So why the completely useless message? Nowhere do they actually say what OrganicMaps is doing wrong.
I'm sure the answer is 'automated review process, humans are expensive', but it's really fucked up to see a huge corporation like Google just removing one of the two most well-known OpenStreetMap apps like that (the other being OsmAnd).
If you use Android: get free software apps like these from F-Droid.
Considering the fact that OrganicMaps shows a map of the world, it might be something as daft as allowing children to look up where the nearest brothel is…
Lol, you can find these with Google Maps. Tested in Melbourne, Australia in an incognito Google Maps web session. Brothels are legal here.
I didn't even consider the legality (they're legal in the Netherlands), but I was thinking more along the lines of Google's 'Family Policy' mentioned in the Tweet (Xeet?).
Google Maps is PEGI 3 though.
You need Overpass Turbo for that or OsmAnd~ although I always forget how to search there.
This is hilarious but brothels search and bbq area search are the two Overpass Turbo shortcuts in my browser.
Now I'm just curious if the two ever overlap. A BBQ brothel does kind of sound like a business opportunity.
That was my thought. Somewhere on the planet there's something that has a sexual explicit name and the take down is based on that.
They probably should yank chrome and the app store while they’re at it then.
You can still download via APK hosted on their website, no (like the FTA says, and provides a link)?
Isn’t that want folks want - to not have to go through the gatekeeper, aka Play Store?
Ideally, installing apps from third parties should be as easy as from the google play store.
Today, when I install an APK I get a 10 seconds unskippable warning screen about "potential dangers", and after installing, another unskippable 1 minute "security check" screen. All of this bullshit is 100% done to deter most people from going through, by scaring them or making it a chore.
Also, apps installed through APKs do not update automatically, you have to fetch the updated APK file for every updates and go through this painful process again.
Ideally, we could use third party app stores, that would be allowed to provide the same level of comfort as the play store.
What version of Android is this? When I install an apk I only get a single confirm / cancel popup.
Also, as a sibling comment pointed out, there are third party app stores with all the comfort of the Play store (and far less adware): https://f-droid.org/
fdroid
Personally I don't care if Google removes any apps from their repo; I get all of the apps I actually care about through other means anyways.
The thing that makes this particular case feel weird to me is that the organization playing gatekeeper is also competing directly with this app.
Seems like the solution is to make that approval process independent. (As for who would pay for that, who can say, should it be government run?, should it have application fees? etc)
While I sympathise with developers who are the victim of mistakes, we have no transparency to know who is actually in the wrong.
There is also constant subjective criticism about what is too little or too much protective oversight. Fortnite was approved by both Apple and Google despite the FTC fining Epic for intentionally tricking children into making unwanted purchases, (Epic would also kill the account if the parent did charge backs), other scam apps have snuck onto the various stores over the years, and it wasn't too long ago that both Facebook and Google used side-loading to distribute data collection apps that wouldn't pass official channels.
As for who would pay for that, who can say, should it be government run?
Distribute the cost by distributing sources. The GNU/Linux ecosystem has been operating just fine on this model for decades.
As I noted elsewhere in the thread, Android Auto only works when your app is distributed through the Play store. Side loading doesn't get the correct signature to do that.
Organic Maps is nice. On my phone (GrapheneOS Android), I use Organic Maps exclusively now, and haven't yet seen a need to install or use Google Maps on the phone.
(I still use the Google Maps Web site on my laptop, though, and like StreetView, satellite, and the texture-mapped aerial 3D imagery there.)
I think having gmaps is must.
Even if you don’t open it, you should have it in case everything goes wrong.
I like waze, but sometimes it just fails to find me a certain place.
I like waze, but sometimes it just fails to find me a certain place.
Doesn't Waze belong to Google?
That's heavily location and use dependant. Why would Google Maps be better than OpenStreetMap locally downloaded for off-line use into OsmAnd or OrganicMaps? In much of Europe Google Maps can't even compete with OpenStreetMap data as soon as you get to trails, paths, and minor local roads.
Besides, if you have a wireless signal, you can always just of the browser with Google Maps.
A real backup means having a paper map when hiking, and just following the local road signs when driving. When things really go wrong, Google Maps is just about the last thing to use.
If there were a service that could convert Google Maps links to Organic Maps links, I'd never need Google Maps.
On iOS, I never use gmaps. Even if I tap a link accidentally and it opens their website, the address is broken half the time. Instead, I screen shot the address and paste it into another mapping app.
However, on android, if the google location services (the spyware half of gmaps) is not installed, then third party apps like uber and lyft, and real world infrastructure access, like ev charging and paying parking meters break.
Install it from F-Droid and live free of this monopolistic bullshit
I am grateful for F-Droid but the usability is not great compared to the built-in Play Store.
Have you tried Neo Store? It also pulls from F-Droid.
Second this. F-droid opens all the doors, is pro open-source, and use AppManager through F-droid to remove Google's bloatware!
Google keeps removing "unused" developer accounts and "low quality" apps, but if I want to remove my apps from Play Store and close developer account, but it is impossible to remove apps when developer actually wants to do it, only "hide" them. And there's no button to delete developer account either. Double standards.
Yep, and to make things worse, even if your account is empty, if you had a (unpublished) paid app, you still have to go through the account verification stuff and provide your drivers license, etc to Google. If you don't want to have your public information posted, your options are to create a business account.
I’d be curious to see how that holds up in Europe or California.
At least one person must have sent them a “do not sell my personal information” or “right to be forgotten” request, and then declined to accept the new terms.
As a temporary workaround for the Google Play issue, you can install the new upcoming Google Play update from this link: https://cdn.organicmaps.app/apk/OrganicMaps-24081605-GoogleP...
Just to clarify, is this Google Play update "upcoming" in that it is currently going through Google's policy review process in order to reinstate your app on Google Play? If so, what changes were made in this release to satisfy their policies?
I'm interested to see what technical hoops you're jumping through to get your app reinstated, if you don't mind sharing. As a developer myself I've had my "fun" with policy compliance and review processes. All the best either way, hope it gets reinstated soon!
There was a new release due on Google Play and App Store, I am not certainly sure but the removal was unrelated.
Seems nobody else here was speculating on a rules-based cause, so I might as well.
Policy 1 [0] seems the most likely cause to me. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some vandalism on OSM that had some "inappropriate" content or similar.
0: https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...
Next they'll be removing Firefox because you can access adult websites with it.
Well I don't think an automated check would have downloaded maps. Also, Google Maps is being vandalized as well: https://natemat.pl/250163,jak-zmienic-nazwe-w-mapach-google-...
Are these removals handled by a human or automated?
Google play store used to say that OM had over 1 million installs. It seems unlikely that popular applications can be pulled by fully automated processes without a human in the loop. Especially for something as nebulous as “Families Program” rules.
Why can't we have nice things
Line must go up
Google play review process is tough because you can’t have conversation with them.
Apple lets you
This wasn't a review process for a new update. The already approved app version was unexpectedly removed without any warnings.
Google acting like a monopolist.
Would they ever apply the same scrutiny towards their own apps? Can you imagine Google maps being taken off the play store without being given a reason?
I filed a support issue in the play store complaining about being unable to install the app.
But quite frankly this should be a case for antitrust.
I don't think there's malicious intent here because Organic Maps is a very small app compared to other "map apps", Google isn't afraid of them. Incompetence? Perhaps. Also, every store makes mistakes from time to time.
On top of this, the Play Store is just one of the few stores you can have on Android. Organic Maps itself can be installed via F-Droid, Huawei's store, Aptoide, etc, not to mention that you can download the apk from their site/Github and install it.
I'd agree with you if this was about Google Search or something like that, but Android apps? I don't see any monopoly there.
Oh it's just another multi-trillion dollar company operating with near unlimited discretion in the domain in which it's a (mono|duo)polist. What else is new? Anything else than turbo-capitalism is so out of fashion these days, even things like "utilities" regulation as applied to e.g. phone companies in the 20th century is now decidedly out of scope. We will continue to have these hugely profitable companies bully competitors and extend their tentacles everywhere until states do something about it.
--
The unspecified "you have violated our terms of service ergo your account has been closed / your data has been deleted / you can't open this page or this app, no appeal or review allowed" is a pretty insidious example of this prepotence.
You're right, this needs regulation. We're already seeing the reaction in the EU with the DMA, I hope it continues.
It could the part of their effort on purging of low quality apps[1], announced last month.
I hope this gets resolved, OrganicMaps is a great app for OSM and is crucial to increasing OSM adoption
I use organic maps.
great app!
I use it on E/os and lineage phones.
My friends have it on their googled phones, not from the play store.
I get them to install Droid-ify and install it from there.
Then I adb remove google maps completely for them.
@google is now stared behaving like scared.
Fdroid and be done with it?
organic maps is the best app of Navigation ever
Just use fdroid. It's a nice app, great for hiking. Last time I used it (2 years ago), it seemed to be quite a battery drain, not sure they fixed it in the meantime.
They are doing this AFTER the monopoly suit?? Google is done. They'll be a shell of themselves in 5-10 years
Personally, I'm not surprised that Google did this, they remove a lot of applications from the play store. The creatures, what to take from them!
I agree, Organic Maps is often better than Google Maps for walkable trails, bicycle and hiking paths. I found there are some paths mapped on OSM that are not mapped at all on GMaps.
On the other hand, GMaps is better for up-to-date commercial data like stores and their opening hours. Its navigation system is better too. As much as I'd like to drop all Google services from my life, Maps is too useful to let go.
What's wrong with OSM itself?
Is OSM good at keeping up-to-date with commercial data? I always thought it wasn’t so good, but maybe I’m wrong
No. Even though I navigate with Osmand regularly, I must use Gmaps to find stores' existence, address, hours, phone number, url. Gmaps is the yellow pages. Osmand is a map.
OSM can have those details it just takes a local community on top of keeping things updated. Even Google often relies on users for that stuff.
Google has an infinitely-larger community; a local community is not sufficient in dense areas where businesses are opening and closing every day. France has the third largest OSM community and yet some neighborhoods of its largest cities are full of outdated businesses.
not infinitely larger lol
community size absolutely does not matter, it's the activity. a local active community of 2 active persons for every 260 residents is sufficient
I'd say it's closer to 5 active contributors for a population of 100000.
In Paris we have ~100 contributors with >100 edits for a population of 2M and 60.8k businesses. Most notes are fixed under a day, infrastructure changes are quick as well, but businesses are often out of date because they change so often that some people don’t take the time to update them.
That would be huge. For a city with 2M inhabitants, that would mean 8k active contributors. Remember that there are ~40-50k active OSM contributors in the whole world.
Interestingly, in Atlanta I've had the opposite experience. In town OSM always seems to be better (Google has a lot of outdated open hours and the like). Outside of town in the cheaper burbs which is the only place I can afford to live though few people are editing OSM and it's pretty out of date.
That being said, I switched to Organic maps years ago. For 90% of places I go, it turns out I go to them repeatedly day-to-day, so I added them to the map the first time and update them when I go there and the hours have changed. Then they're on the map the rest of the time when I need to look up hours or what not so I rarely have anywhere around here that I go to that's not on the map anymore. When I do, I add it and next time it's on there and it works well enough 99% of the time.
You highlight a function of OSM that is hard to get across to people: I can fix the map!
For example, bicycle routing in my area was unreliable, because it would try to route me over rough trails. Just adding a few tags improved the experience dramatically. And then it was fixed not only for me, but everybody else too.
Meanwhile, other people fixed other annoyances, and the map works better across many areas. Google instead decides to hide things that interest me, and shows sponsored places I don't care for. I have zero recourse.
This works for routing, but doesn’t apply to businesses: for the bare minimum you have to add one or two tags (type + name), to make that more useful you have to add the opening hours and ideally the website. Now multiply this by 60,000 (the number of businesses in Paris, France). By the time you’ve finished your neighborhood some businesses you checked last month are already closed and some new ones already opened. Go on holidays? Too bad, you have to start over again when you come back. Trust me, I’m contributing almost every day and I can’t keep the pace.
Yeah the idea that I should keep up with all the shops in the larger area is scary. Luckily, I'm not alone. All I can say is you're doing a good thing by adding regular updates.
And I think even partially complete OSM is helpful. If I add just one ATM, that can already help somebody looking for one. That might even be me, when I know it's there somewhere, but not exactly where.
Well add the information yourself…
We seemed to be talking about trails. Maybe I misunderstood.
You can download one of the dozens of OSM-editing apps like: - streetcomplete - vespucci - everydoor and either add that information yourself or leave a note for other people
Why should he/she labour for free for the shop owners?
How do you think google maps got such a good database of these things? When I last used it, Google maps used to actively ask you for this sort of information.
And the tragic thing is that Google the monopolist rides on people's helpful inclinations then turns around and sells their contributions.
I actively avoid contributing to that corp. Not even marking spam. Let them drown in the fruits of their own incentives.
The shop owners also put their hours onto Google Maps, or paid somebody to do it. You shouldn't labour for free for Google either.
Even if you managed to help a shop get hundreds or thousands of new customers by updating their online information, they wouldn't even give you a cup of coffee if you asked. More likely they'd spit in your face.
For most physical businesses that are open to the public, correct information on map services are by far their most important advertising. Yet, they neglect this and spend thousands on billboards, social media, radio spots, etc. If they are failing as business owners, that's their own problem.
I sure wish shop owners updated their hours. But in the end OSM is better if I do it, and others do it. It's called collaboration.
If I had the information I wouldn’t be looking it up.
I guess the point of the parent is that if more people were contributing information, then you would get it from OSM.
For relatively static info, sure. For real time bus/rail status you need integrations to countless public transit systems. For stuff like store times, etc, you need sufficient market power so that business owners are incentived to provide that info.
I added/updated hundreds of opening hours to OSM. A few people updating the opening hours to the shops they go to is already worth a lot.
OrganicMaps lets you also add points and attributes to OSM.
I seem to remember they have a history of incorrect tags or tag combinations being applied by their software though. Not sure what the current state is but may be something to look into before using OrganicMaps as a mapping application when there's other good options
Not in my country. They don't even keep track of national holidays, and very often keep listing establishments that closed down years ago.
Also, you might be standing in front of a restaurant and when asking google maps for nearby restaurants, if that one isn't blessed, you'll get directions to a 3km restaurant instead.
this is a cognitive bias. it's really interesting.
google used to be good, because if the hours were there, someone had put effort in. they were 95% accurate for CONUS. but over the last 6~ years the quality has degraded. Only about 65% accurate now. And to me, that's worse than unuseful, because i can't plan, i need to verify, so i might as well have gone to the store website anyways.
also who the heck needs open and close times? if you need that level of precision you need a personal assistant.
Uh I do?
Not all restaurants are open for both lunch and dinners, and in every country there's different ideas on what's the appropriate time for having a meal.
This largly depends on the location you are referring to. In many german places / cities, OSM data is often more accurate than Google Maps, even for commercial infos like opening hours. In the end it is up to people to ensure data is up-to-date. Apps like StreetComplete can help with that. Organic Maps also allows for some editing.
I much prefer Every Door, especially for updating opening hours and any kind of place details. Have you tried it?
GMaps is usable from a web browser, although definitely less performant than the native app.
It gets worse at that on a regular basis, at least on iOS, where they can’t factory install the background tracking daemons.
Though G maps works in a browser, so you don't necessarily need a phone with google services running.
Australia "up-to-date commercial data like stores and their opening hours" is about all that appears on Google Maps :(
I just wish Organic Maps would revert that new "feature" which prompts you for your location again and again multiple times per use, multiple times per day.[0]
Guys, if the device has location services disabled, your app should get the hint after I dismiss the prompt for the n!th time.
[0]: https://github.com/organicmaps/organicmaps/issues/1128
Interesting. Insofar as that's new, and they tripped a family sensor, that could well be related since we're BnL not supposed to track minors in any way.
OSMAnd is great for openstreetmap data, it's a real expert user app for maps.
I switched from OSMAnd to Organic Maps a few years ago. Organic Maps is way faster, and I actually understand what all the buttons do.
It has some minor limitations, though: it cannot keep the GPS on when you switch to a different app, and it doesn't do track recording.