His explanation for Google losing to OpenAI on GenAI: "Google decided that work life balance and going home early and working from home was more important than winning."
What a tremendous lack of self-awareness. Let's put aside all the leadership issues, all the politics, all the complacency, all the bureaucracy, and blame people for working from home.
(Not saying there aren't folks at Google who are just cruising, etc... but that's a fraction of the problem compared to the leadership issues)
Considering that in Meta I heard (from friends) it is/was easier to work remotely and even easier to get into (they are less leetcode oriented) I would expect the problem with Google loosing is somewhere else. Google was loosing on many fronts for a while:
- dart lost to typescript on web
- angular lost to react
- tensorflow looks like currently loosing to pytorch - seems like google got bored and more development is for JAX, Keras wrapper [0]
- IMHO flutter will loose with react-native or kotlin compose multiplatform - compare github insights for details
Meta on the other hand kickstarted open source Llama community. In this situation it's hard to bet on Gemmini or Gemma as 3rd party developer considering google projects kill records. The only project they were really to bet on and invest for the long run without getting tired early on was Chrome and Android.
[0] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=...
i believe this trend is a result of management culture and performance metrics that attempt to measure "impact", and correlate pay and promotions along those measures.
It's the same reason why google products die when they don't reach mega-success (thus products getting killed off in spades recently).
Nobody wants to be doing maintenance on projects started by somebody else - so as soon as the lead visionary leaves for better pastures, that project gets languished, and whoever takes over it cannot use it to generate promotion worthy impact.
Yeah, i don't want to invest in anything google, i'm scared it will be uselss in 6mo.
That's a big problem, a "support guarantee" could really help things.
Google is now a AD platform with a search engine to sell stuff.
I hoped a little bit in Fuchsia, it was the last one for me.
>Google is now a AD platform with a search engine to sell stuff.
NOW?! They were that for the past 20 years mate.
Their search isn't even so great any more. They tend to forcefully switch the user input to some generic terms. More than often duckduckgo produces better results for me. I started feeling comfortable using duckduckgo instead of google.
I’m not sure you understand how ingrained and far reaching Google ad manager is.
Their search could die and they’d still be the biggest advertising player on the internet by leaps and bounds.
Facebook would be bigger.
Not. Even. Close.
You are just ignorant, Google search is 57% of their total revenue, remaining advertisement is just 19%, people really overestimate how much Google ad network is worth when its just 9.2% of their revenue and YouTube is just 10%. In fact if you remove search Google makes more money from selling subscriptions and services than they do from ads, so they would no longer be an ad company!
https://www.voronoiapp.com/business/Breaking-down-Googles-Q1...
Facebook makes much more money than 19% of Google.
Edit: And I wonder why I got downvoted for being right, many here just blindly believe that Google gets their money from ads on third party sites when most of it comes from search.
But I guess your second post is right, it isn't close, Facebook would be much bigger.
Exactly how does Google makes money through search if not...advertising?
Yeah but the search engine provided a service good enough that you could overlook that
I noticed today that they get rid of filters in the "products/shopping" tab
FFS
Fuchsia isn't dead. Yet.
Fuchsia is a talent retention project. Basically daycare for kernel engineers, to prevent them from leaving Google.
But what do Google shareholders get out of this?
They get to keep those engineers out of the hands of competitors.
It is dead
Firebase (especially Cloud Messaging) is in use by a lot of companies. Killing that off will have a huge blast radius.
I felt like I could rationalize a lot of Google decisions to kill products, such as Inbox or Reader, but retiring Google Domains really shook my confidence in GCP.
It is actually insane that they did this. I literally stopped recommending people use GCP over this - you can't get started easily because you have to use another platform for the domain. Why even use GCP at all?
It was also incredibly sticky with GSuite. Setting up security and everything was a breeze -- DMARC email records, SMTP, etc all magic -- I truly couldn't believe when this was announced. It was incredibly sad and I still feel upset about it a year later.
Porkbun is my go to registrar now. And I switched my email to Migadu.
also at porkbun for dns, big fan.
saying this as someone who used to work for enom, if that matters.
Google Cloud Domains is still a thing, and you can purchase domains from the console still. The registrar changed to square space, but it didn't really impact Google Cloud's usage.
Absolutely staggering. Google Domains complemented GCP perfectly and would make thanks to Cloud DNS a stellar seamless end-to-end integration. I'm in disbelief as to why they removed this crucial feature while at the same time going full in with GCP.
I could understand deprecating Google Domains for B2C, but for B2B?! What went through their heads?
Because they couldn't shoehorn "AI" into the product, I guess.
Even though I was a Google fanboy, this was a nail in the head. Had a .dev domain which expired and squarespace asked like 6 times more to let me buy it back. Waited till the grace period was over and bought it back for the original price from NameCheap.
Agreed, such a critical piece of infrastructure, the mind boggles. I'll have to see what I can pry out of our Google account team about it.
I'd go further and bet that those "impact" metrics likely came from a spreadsheet pusher like Schmidt.
Schmidt still takes the gold medal in my estimate for destroying a company he ran by not understanding how the business actually works (as CEO of Novell he decided to screw their channel partners not understanding that the channel relationships were the company's entire moat against Microsoft).
Channel relationships were a boat anchor around Novell's neck. The channel helped Novell grow rapidly in the early days then building a file server and installing an office network took some real technical skill. But then Microsoft released Windows NT and a new generation of hardware came out which allowed any idiot to set up a LAN. Microsoft beat Novell in part by distributing their server software more widely instead of forcing customers to go through channel partners. Of course, it also didn't help that Novell failed to innovate on their products and tried to coast on past success.
Network installers are still used to this day on big network buildouts, simply because office IT departments aren't staffed for that kind of work regardless of how easy the software is.
But it's not like Schmidt had any strategy to bypass the network installers. He just decided to screw them hard so he could make a quarter look good, which lead inevitably to them deciding not to be Novell's low-paid salesforce anymore, which lead rapidly to the vastly premature collapse of the business.
Meta's performance reviews are also heavily weighted for measurable impact.
I think that the reason why it's beating Alphabet in so many fronts is team culture. Most new product teams are small and have a reasonably flat hierarchy. It's easy to make impact that's both effective and measurable, and the amount of engineering time working in "useless work" is minimised.
Yup, Google MBA'd itself into the ground.
Google seems to have a deep-seated distrust for programming language theory, as well as a deep-seated distrust for its users. This combination produces awkward software and APIs that ignore modern PLT and take a "Google knows best" approach.
As someone who's been working with them a lot at the moment I'm going to say that the problems that google has are not anything to do with tensorflow or programming language theory and everything to do with the fact that the place is absolutely jam-packed with MBAs and other ex-McKinsey-type professional meeting attendees. This is really apparent if you are reasonably senior in an enterprise and deal with google as a vendor.
Every meeting I attend with them has one or two engineers[1] struggling to breathe because there are at least 6 or 7 sales people, relationship managers or other non-doing non-technical middle-management spreadsheet jockeys stealing all the oxygen in the room.[2]
I can only imagine how terrible it is to work there given that these folks have all the power internally. I've genuinely never dealt with an organization that seems this bad.
[1] who are usually pretty good.
[2] It's an internal joke at my enterprise how every meeting another new person from google shows up introduces themselves as head of some other microscopic facet of the corporate relationship.
As someone two years into working at Google this resonates hard and has absolutely been my experience as an engineer there too. It's certainly not the culture I was expecting for sure.
Longer-time Googler here. We went blindingly fast from "A few engineers decide to use the most powerful computing cluster in the world to make a meme generator because it would be a cool project" to "Let's have a sync meeting with 15 people, including five managers, to discuss buying a $20,000 test instrument, which will need to be approved by four directors, three of whom are OOO for the next two months."
Something changed recently though because yes there are those MBA types but the engineer in the room used to be not a sales type person. Now (earlier this year, just before IO), even the engineers are becoming more like salespeople in my experience. My guess is there is pressure for everyone to make more money somehow?
this is the end result of all publicly traded companies. eventually you'll hit Sears-level of selling where the CEO just straight up puts departments in conflict with each other until the whole thing just falls apart.
If I had to guess you're probably an Enterprise customer of Google cloud? I'm not sure that's a representative take.. of course there's going to be a lot of sales and relationship manager types because you're a customer of their Enterprise offering.. internally Google's completely different
Meta is the most leetcode heavy interviews for SWEs, they expect you to solve 2 leet code questions in every coding round.
Unsure Meta now, but FB was indeed absurdly leetcodish 10 years back.
Same when I interviewed ~1-2 years ago.
This is a weird take. It might pertain to 2020 during Covid when Meta encouraged remote working, but it's not like that anymore. Interviews were always leetcode focused so nothing changed there.
Meta is an interesting comparison because the performance culture has historically been way tougher than Google (sans Covid years). It's quite a shock for a lot of Xooglers who join. One Xoogler at Meta who told me they only used to work 4-6 hours a day at Google. That is basically impossible in Meta - you have to constantly prove your value and the perf bar is high.
I think Google is changing now though and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see them adopt Meta/Amazon style perf cultures in the future.
Source: I work at Meta, and have close friends at Google.
The grind catches up to you. Your body keeps the score, don't let them fool you.
All these asshole managers like Schmidt.
I agree it takes a toll - but you get well compensated for it.
Tensorflow losing has nothing to do with Google getting bored -- it's vice versa.
Tensorflow is a symbolic framework, which is less intuitive to work with for most people than the Pytorch. Not to mention the errors Tensorflow generates are more annoying to debug (again more an issue with the fact that it's symbolic than any lack of effort on part of Google)
Google tried to fix it by introducing an eager mode in Tensorflow but by then it was too late.
> Google tried to fix it by introducing an eager mode in Tensorflow but by then it was too late.
And the fix was "new major version with a fundamentally different programming paradigm"
But it turns out when your users are irritated with your product, and you tell them to change to a fundamentally different programming paradigm, the new programming paradigm they change to might not be yours.
Intuitive has nothing to do with it. Developers will tend to prefer things that make their lives easier. Debuggability is a huge part of that. Tf 1.0 having a static execution graph was a major pain. No wonder people switched to PyTorch and didn’t look back.
All of those examples (except maybe tensorflow, I don't know enough to say for sure) are interesting because they highlight a more "googly" approach to the problems.
Typescript is a superset of javascript, Dart isn't (though it transpiles). Flutter implements its own widgets, react native controls native widgets.
I know nothing about what makes an industry succeed or fail, and also nothing about web tech, but working in the field I can comment on:
Well, TensorFlow doesn't "look like currently losing", it has already lost since a long time. I haven't seen a decent paper release code in TensorFlow in years, and all the references I see to TF online are job posts from "older" companies (to the point that, if you are looking for a job in data science, seeing TF mentioned in the job post is kind of a red flag of a place you don't want to be).
That said, I am quite certain that this has only a small impact on why Google is losing terrain, and even on why it is behind in AI (which is also debatable: narrative aside, Gemini is not that much lacking behind competitors). Certainly if TensorFlow + TPUs turned out to be better than PyTorch + GPUs they would have had a lead to start from, but if that was so important, Meta or NVIDIA would have created the first LLM, not OpenAI.
Simply, sometimes stuff happens, you can't predict it all.
Meta is less leetcode oriented? I'm shocked to read this. Meta is the poster child for leetcode style interviews. Meta requires you to solve 2 leetcode style questions in 35 mins (out of 45 mins - first 5 mins for initial pleasantries, last 5 mins for asking questions). For each question, you're required to (based on the signals they look for) ask clarifying questions, present a solution to the interviewer, get buy-in, code, verify with test cases - all this in 17.5 mins/question. Go figure! :-)
I think the reporting of his quote overemphasizes on "work from home" piece of his sentence as that fits right into a continuous obsession/bike sheds.
Whether "work from home" is the cause or not, I think he is absolutely right on the latter part of his sentence, that contrary to startups, almost no individual at Google has the fire or drive in them to play to win. If you are young and you go work at Google, they will beat that fire out of you very quickly. "Work" from home is just one way that nobody-cares attitude is manifesting itself. [BTW, that attitude is by no means exclusive to ICs; definitely leadership has it as well, perhaps more so.]
Yes, that's why you go to large megacorps. I wouldn't go to Oracle, IBM, Google, Facebook, MS, etc. etc. if I had a "huge fire or a drive to win". Honestly, I go there because I wanna work 5 hours a day (less if possible) and have a stable career.
If I want to work 9-12h a day, give me an upside. None of these huge megacorps will reward that.
If I'm the lead of a Goog project that becomes a hit, do I get $10M bonus? Of course not. I get a pat on the back and something to put in my packet for the next promotion interview.
So you're absolutely right, but the problem is not in people. It's in the way the system's designed.
Seems like you might want to consider the finance industry.
If you make something important 5% faster, you bet you are getting a few years worth of salary as bonus.
The incentives in finance are remarkably well-tuned to rewarding employee effort. Make the company 300k? You get 30k. Make the company 300 million? You get 30 million.
That seems so easy to game. Do some small change that brings short term gain, bag the profit and let the rebound be the failure of another team.
Doesn't that pretty much describe the 2007-2008 financial crisis?
The crisis was 07/08, but the buildup was almost a decade in the making, does that count as short term?
And every such crisis before it, and the next one too.
If you think it's easy to game 30M in short term revenue, please try to do that in a large firm.
The risk/compliance teams would be interested in your strategy.
I'm a socialist/anarchist, they would never give me that opportunity :)
Maybe the profit share is earned out over time? Otherwise I would agree with you..
the law in the UK is that material risk takers bonus pay over a certain amount (couple of hundred thousand) is deferred over 3-5 years and can be clawed back
how do swe get into finance?
First step, understand what Finance means in the scope of technology work.
I see quite a few SWE jobs here in Singapore in finance, mostly realtime C++ order management. If the advertised salaries are real, they're very well-paid (300-700k USD, plus bonus).
I think you would have to target the scope even smalller to particular areas of finance probably quant or trading within a hedge fund. The majority of jobs at a large bank are mostly fixed salary with limited bonus. There are many jobs that are essential but don't capture a percentage of the value they generate. For example processing transactions is essential for a bank but typically doesn't pay large bonuses in that area.
Isn't that strange?
Unfortunately not. Nurses, doctors, bin men, car mechanics, plumbers can all be essential at times but rarely pay large bonuses.
I agree that many want the stable and low hours career but how many people at these big companies are getting that? I mostly see it as a FOB farm and trying to overwork the overwhelming majority of workers at these companies. For all the stories of people working five hours a day and making $400k/yr - I hear many more working 60 hour weeks.
I don’t really see startups rewarding that much either. Maybe it’s more rewarding if you’re a founder. I’m speaking as someone who has been an early engineer at startups and gone public with them. I still don’t see them as that rewarding unless you’re a founder.
Also, incentives aren’t the same. You might make a great thing but unless you’re near the top - you’re probably not going to get properly rewarded regardless of how good your ideas and whatnot are. People at the top will steal credit because that’s what they do. (“Look at how good I am at hiring/managing/inspiring/etc.”)
This is absolutely right. For every senior person in a glamorous role at a FAANG making $400k/yr, there are probably five less senior, less glamorous people making $150k/yr, grinding away trying to justify a promotion to the next level. The people posting to HN that their brother's girlfriend's nephew's roommate makes $400k think that's every FAANG developer.
To be more balanced on this, I don't think that many are making <=$150k/yr if they're in NYC/Seattle/SF and are in engineering. I think many are making $300-400k/yr but have a high workload.
Levels gives a clear direction that if you work at big tech as an engineer, you'll usually make decent to good income. Whether it's worth the WLB/PIPing/misery is what you have to figure out.
There's a reason a ton of the people at FAANG are all on H1B. It's not a lack of domestic talent - it's a lack of Americans willing to be worked that hard and go through insane hoops to get said jobs. (justifiably so btw) I think a large reason why most of the crowd at FAANG is way more autistic than average is because autists can put up with such insane working conditions/hoops. Either cause they enjoy it or because they just have something about them that allows them to ignore it. I'm not even going to get in on how so many people in SV are also on various stimulants.
This is oversimplifying too much IMO. Obviously the potential reward working at startups is much higher than megacorps, and you can very safely say that people working at startups have a higher risk appetite. However, plenty of people work 9h-12h a day (say, at Meta) in wish to get promoted at rocket-speed and play to "win" the higher TC at megacorps, and it happens often enough that very-driven people do join megacorps.
System was designed by the people, more specifically people with ability to make decisions a.k.a management
There might not have been one person making all the wrong decisions. But more like lots of small wrong decisions, but it doesn't reduce the fact that it is management that is always responsible for the state of affairs.
How can you have "drive to win" if you are just an employee of a company, and have no stake in it?
People love to talk about how capitalism (or free market) solves the tragedy of the commons, but it actually doesn't. The only way to solve it is to make people care about commons by giving them a say in managing it, i.e. socialism.
There do exist worker-managed companies under capitalism, they consistently underperform. There also exist (and have existed) worker-managed companies under various forms of socialism, those were an utter disaster (for the workers themselves, for the environment, for business productivity, for overall societal welfare, for human dignity, the list goes on).
Bonuses, raises, equity.
They do not consistently underperform. Just go to wikipedia:
I wonder why there aren’t more worker co-ops then. Maybe they’re more productive per worker but struggle to grow big enough? Or maybe they’re less likely to survive a downturn because layoffs are harder?
Don’t discount that they’re also seen as a threat to the status quo
No they are not, there are so few co-ops that nobody cares about them. No politician campaigns promising to destroy co-ops, not even Trump, because there is no reason to.
I doubt the demographics of coop participation are even partisan. Urban organic food coops probably skew left, but all those rural infrastructure coops, fuel/etc service for farmers, probably skew right. Attacking coops wouldn't win you votes with many people on either side.
They aren't a threat , which force is stopping coops from starting exactly?
Because it takes capital to start a business. People with capital like to retain control over their capital, so they don’t start cooperatives.
Coops don’t have the same incentive structure as external-investor-beholden corporations, so they don’t pursue “growth at all costs”, but rather survival at all costs (job preservation), and then growth where appropriate (pie expansion).
It’s kind of like the trade off between authoritarian regimes and democratic regimes. One is fast but flimsy, the other is slow but robust.
Banks dont want to lend money to them as often/much/favorably, coops usually don’t want investment.
To start a business you need capital, if you have enough on your own, you do not need a coop, much more difficult to convince a group of people to risk together unless they’ve all had previous experience with one another.
Of course, according to a metric, how much money I can make out of an investment, without having to do any work, they underperform!
This is simply not true. Where it was a disaster, it was for the similar reason, workers didn't have the stake in the company.
Possibly but you have no say how these things get distributed, and they still are only a small portion of what the investors get.
Perhaps you could name some worker-managed companies under socialism that did well - for example, East German companies that subsequently managed to compete against their West German peers. I can think of one - Zeiss Jena - though I don't know how truly worker-managed it was. (For some reason, the East Germans were very expert at manufacturing lenses ...)
And significant ones, too. None of this "Hey, you saved the company $1M, here's a $500 bonus!" bullshit.
I once had a founder privately lament to me the this employees don't play to win, and don't "treat the company as if they owned it," and it took all my willpower not to fire back with: "Dude, you're the sole shareholder with 100% of the equity, what do you expect?"
Socialism, or anarchy. I watched an old Charlie Rose episode with David Graeber. Charlie asked him to define anarchy. It was then that I realized I was a born anarchist. From day one I have validated, questioned, and ignored any authority I could. When people refer to me as their employee, I wretch with disgust. It's really tough to function in our society surrounded by all these sycophants and boot lickers worshiping hierarchy.
See problem, fix problem. Don't bring it to management. They are just going to tell you to fix it and then take the credit. Protesters confuse me, they are appealing to the cause of the problem for help and redress.
It blows me away how people bathe themselves in hierarchy. Its almost like oxygen to them. Of course, many anarchists become authority figures because of their raw affinity for getting shit done without asking for permission to think.
Great theory when it's just a little quip. Not so great when it comes time to put into practice.
I have a problem, one of my coworkers is being lazy, he isn't cleaning up after himself and his mess is becoming a general hazard (slipping, fire.) I try to tell him to fix it but he's not concerned about the risks and tells me to fuck off. I can clean the mess myself, sometimes, but I have my own work to get done and he can create new mess a lot faster than I can clean it. I could try to organize other workers into a lynch mob.. err... I mean struggle session- wait no... I mean "intervention", but this asshole isn't responsive to social pressure and the people I work with don't have the stomach for violence...
You know what solves this neatly? Going to management. And if that fails, going to government regulators.
hear hear
You can't influence the course of the company (hence the 'beating drive out of you' comment I made). I am not root-causing the issue and putting the blame on leaf-level folks, just describing it. Quite the contrary.
I was riding a gBike (single-speed for those who aren't familiar with one) ~10 years ago with my friend and I told him this bike is a perfect representative of Google's culture. No matter how hard you pedal it goes the same speed.
Capitalism (or rather 'free' in the technical sense markets) solve a coordination problem. They don't solve the tragedy of the commons (unless you start paying people not to polute the commons, but that is very perverse).
They are by far our best bet at solving large coordination problems through price signals. Even though they are far from perfect. I do believe that free markets require capitalism (i.e. profits go to the owner of the capital rather than those who do the labour). But nothing there is against strong regulation, collective bargaining, and anti-trust. Nor is there anything about companies being soley beholden to their shareholders.
Also, 'free' markets can only exist with a whole bunch of regulation, and even then some markets (e.g. emergency care) can never be free.
Indeed, if I actually felt like the work I was doing was directly benefiting my coworkers and community members I would be really excited about it! Hard to get motivated when all your work goes to making sure your manager gets a kitchen remodel and a third house.
It's ludicrous to lay this at the feet of individual employees and assert that they're all just lazy with no drive etc.
Google has severe cultural problems and the responsibility for that should be assumed by the leadership.
I did not.
That said, it is up to the individual to work at Google or not, so it's not like they are a self-selecting population of maximally driven people. At least not the recently-joined folks.
By and large, Google is branded as the company people choose to go and coast maximally recently.
No one with such a drive would stay in, or even go to Google, neither any GAFAM-like corp. Those have been the establishment for 10+ years now.
A large corporation cannot seriously pretend to encourage their employees to "play to win" when it is structuring itself against that precisely.
The bigger the corp, the slower, duller and more rigid it becomes _unless_ someone at the CxO level actively fights against it in a opinionated manner (which still doesn't often register well with boards and major shareholders).
It may be sad, it's quasi a law of physics for corporations. If you have that kind of fire in you, go first hunt into to the woods, don't go to the factories.
I am not so sure it's that cut and dry. Even among the FANG, the desire to play to win is vastly different. I'd say Apple still has that mojo. Facebook also more than Google although that ship went south post-2018, I'd say.
Tesla comparatively underpaid and overworked people but I think they play to win.
SpaceX even more so. Folks who work hard there are excited to do so because they feel their work matters.
There are non-monetary structural features of large corporations that make them different on that metric. I think the desire at the top to want to win in the first place is critical, plus the autonomy at the lower level to ship cool ideas without much roadblock or dilution of contribution among way too many people.
I think what's hilarious to observe is the transition from "the dream nerd company" to yet another tech hedge fund.
I don't agree, but there are challenges at Google that don't exist in other large companies.
Google's monorepo along with the 'bottom up' driven culture means that to enact any non trivial change, you need many sign-offs, which means an iron clad design doc, and either you have to be brave enough to make huge disparate changes across other teams codebasse, OR to wait multiple quarters to have respective teams execute.
Sometimes this is awesome, and it means you can do really complex things over the course of a year.
Often, it just means experimenting with non trivial changes takes 3x longer than it would at say Amazon or more silo'd companies.
Was he the one who’s having an affair with his business partner or something? And with a bunch of legal troubles.
Yep, he is a great leader! :) /s
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/12/technology/eric-schmidt-a...
what a shallow ad-hominem. during his tenure he was extremely well liked and growth was booming. why would his spousal relationships make him a bad leader? do you look to your managers for moral leadership?
By who? By what metric? That is a much shallower claim.
I would wager the guy blaming their middling AI development on "work life balance" was not well liked.
Even if that’s true, it misses the entire point of the parent comment. His marital issues, infidelity, that one time he made out under a bridge when he was 14… none of it matters to this discussion as anything other than tabloid-fodder.
Behaving like a sexual predator at work while complaining that workers don't wanna be in the office. Maybe just maybe things could be related?
Dating a coworker does not necessarily imply you are “behaving like a sexual predator.” Many people met their partners at work; some even worked for them. Sometimes you meet people in places, and sometimes that place is work. That doesn’t mean you’re walking around hitting on everything that moves.
Yes, he was married. Yes, maybe a serial cheater. Or an awful marriage. Or a great one. I have no idea. But I don’t care?
Dating a coworker (or many) when you are the boss and married is exactly what a sexual predator do. Being a predator doesn't mean he "predate" on every walking thing.
Dating a coworker is a thing a lot of people do. Sometimes it is done by sexual predators who are preying on others. That is also true outside work.
Dating someone at work doesn’t automatically make you a sexual predator. That’s an absurd statement. Plenty of relationships start that way, and sometimes one of them is a boss, and companies have processes for these situations because they happen and the majority of situations are not due to predation.
Are you going to pretend we are not talking about the CEO here? CEOs dating subordinates at work are sexual predators, yes.
Imbalanced power dynamics are bad if they are abused, and they are easy to abuse.
However, not every CEO that dates a subordinate is a sexual predator. Again, that is an absurd statement; life is never that black and white. Sometimes, people meet and fall in love regardless of their lot in life. Stating that anytime that happens and one person happens to be a CEO instantly makes that person a sexual predator is not based in any kind of reality.
A CEO that abuses their power or engages in any kind of non-consensual relationship is a different story.
I agree it’s generally a bad idea, because of perception, favoritism, the power imbalance, and a dozen other reasons. But it being a bad idea doesn’t necessarily imply that the CEO is a sexual predator, either.
Sometimes even people in power care about consent.
And sometimes people in power are predators. That happens too. Maybe even more often; I don’t have stats.
I’m not defending Schmidt. I have no idea about him or his sexual proclivities, nor do I know the details about any of his personal relationships. Neither do you. He may be a monster! But dating someone at work isn’t the thing that makes him one.
Life is quite black and white in many things, unless you are a CEO dating someone that you have power over. if you need this much to explain that some times CEOs abusing their position at WORK for sex maybe aren't sexual predators it just prove that yes, in 99% of the cases they are.
And yes, you are defending not only Schmidt but maybe yourself too?
Now I’m too verbose? Walking around saying “the sky is always black” just because it’s nighttime is short and pithy, but untrue. An explanation might be longer than just saying “99%” as if that is some actual data instead of a number you made up. So what?
Now that we’ve moved solidly from discussion to ad hominems, have a nice day and a nice life.
If it's true? It's a quote from the talk itself.
Not really. I would say cheating on your wife with your PR executive is extremely bad for morale and an all around leadership failing. Just because sex is involved doesn't make it tabloid fodder. I can't just punch a coworker and call it "my personal life."
More importantly, you're ignoring the part of the comment that said he was extremely well liked, which was the baseless claim I responded to. You can say that's not the point of the comment, but that's just because acknowledging it weakens the argument.
Sorry, didn't mean to be unclear - my "even if that's true" was referring to the assertion that Schmidt wasn't well-liked, not your quote.
How's it shallow? He cheated on the mother of his kids. Not complaining about him stealing a candy bar here.
How can you trust someone that can't even keep their vows to their wife?
Unless he is schizophrenic, its still the same mind that keeps continuously lying to most important persons in his life and keeps pretending nothing is happening. This sort of hard character flaw/weakness never goes alone, there are more if you care/can take a deeper look.
If you are OK with serious liars as leaders, thats fine for you I guess. Definitely not OK for me. Albeit for purely work performance, most of us can turn off our moral radar temporarily, mortgages ain't gonna pay for themselves with just good honest heart. But that's not a definition of leader, quite far away from that actually.
Better said than my own comment!
You don’t know anything about his relationships. You’re making assumptions to create a caricature of sin.
I would not be so eager to cast the first stone.
Bill Burr summarizes the whole situation with successful men. Someone should write a manual for men on how to handle success. [0]
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUrMSK8XWFc
he spent so much time at work they became family!
Not just one I guess?
https://qz.com/work/1326942/sergey-brin-started-google-with-...
If there are still people cruising after all these layoffs in the last 2 years, it’s again a leadership issue.
Not really. When I lived and worked in Silicon Valley in the early 2010s, we used to joke that Yahoo! is where you go to retire.
I think Google is starting to become that. It's just the nature of older very large corporations, I suppose. There are places to hide in these companies for non-productive workers.
funny because back then if you ex yahoo that means you got some above average engineering skills
That was the case for Google 10 years ago. Nowadays being an ex-googler gives one a not so bright aura
What is not really about piyuv’s comment?
And that is where the leadership issue lies. Either because they can’t identify them, or can’t motivate them, or can’t fire them. Who is responsible for doing that? I don’t think it is the janitors. It is the leadership, very much.
Absolutely true. The layoffs appear to have been 100% random. Lots of loafers and do-nothing types on my friend's team who did not get laid off, but other people who consistently do great work did get laid off.
There's no incentive to excel. Either you'll get laid off anyway or someone else will take credit for your work.
Might as well just coast. The severance is quite good, so there's not even much motivation to quit, better to wait to be laid off.
Pretty sure when Google was leading the industry (more than a decade ago now?), people was attributing the success to exactly the same thing - good work environment, work life balance, etc.
My recollection of the vibe at the time was, “Google does everything it can to maximize the amount of effective employee time dedicated to Google.”
Real explanation: Google turned into a company of activists who spend 50% of their time with politics. Additionally, part of the company are second class citizens (exercise for the reader).
OpenAI had many Europeans like Sutskever who presumably were still allowed to focus on work.
I know many people at Google, none of whom I would call an “activist”. They all describe Google as overly bureaucratic. They just happen to be sitting on a money printer internet monopoly.
Well... count me in !
Yeah, that sounds like winning ...lol
IMO this came first and is a driver for people stepping back and defending their boundaries with Google. Most of the eng I know just cared about their work (some driven by the ladder, for sure). Google made it difficult and put a bad taste in people's mouths about "work[ing] like hell". Meanwhile, on the startup side that I've seen, people work a lot but in much more harmonious way.
I mean it might be causing some of Googles problems but the AI stuff is very obviously because their teams are academia-brained as in they have the mind virus that the work is making papers and getting citations not shipping products into the real world and making money.
Google had a decade headstart on several AI unicorns tech and did nothing but write a paper and say "No you can't see the code, no you can't use the model, oh maybe here's a video of it working or at best a Google Labs project that shows a small fraction of its potential in a gimmicky way only available in the US and that stops working after a few months".
Google will forever be playing catchup from now, where they had such a massive headstart.
My take is more Google having like a 80-90% share in search and browsers and email and phone os and online advertising probably wasn't too worried about dominating everything and perhaps a little worried about being criticized as a monopoly. Hence them open sourcing the transformers model and instead working on protein folding and the like.
Now they have competition in GenAI they can take it seriously without looking like monopolists there.
Isn't the parsimonious explanation just that Google knows GenAI puts a ton of ad revenue at risk and therefore didn't want it to get commercialized?
I don't know why we keep thinking about "GenAI" as a product. It's an enabling technology that may (or may not) be appropriate for building actual products.
We should be asking "Is our company winning in Search, or in Shopping, or in Chat, or in Developer Tools?" Not "Is our company winning in GenAI?" This is like saying "Is our company winning in Python use?" It makes no sense.
Eric kind of dated himself with that one. That is old-school thinking that resonates with CEOs because they too are struggling to keep up with the times, but is completely tone-deaf as far as keeping engineers happy and productive is concerned.
What's even funnier is that I've heard from someone working at OpenAI is that (at least in their office) they are hybrid, working from the office 3 days a week.
From talking to people who've worked/work at Google it sounds like a lot of the issues stem from too few employees dogfooding their products (especially hardware), and huge inertia to get anything off the ground/make large changes.
Add to that the lack of cohesive product direction (constantly deprecating and replacing messaging products as the main example) and you get Google.
Sometimes these CEOs and "leaders" make mask-off comments and it just demonstrates the gulf between how they and normal people think. It can be quite frightening sometimes to imagine that these kinds of people are the people who wield power in our world, these people who share such little in common with you
He's trying to walk back on this claim:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/eric-schmidt-walks...
I would have thought all the internal political activism would be a factor as well.
Eric Schmidt is scary, Julian Assange spoke of him :' in June 2011 when Assange was living under house arrest at Ellingham Hall in Norfolk, Schmidt and "an entourage of US State Department alumni including a top former adviser to Hillary Clinton" visited for several hours and "locked horns" with the Wikileaks founder. For Schmidt, emancipation is at one with US foreign policy objectives and is driven by connecting non-western countries to American companies and markets'. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/apr/03/julian-assange...
What about all the resources spent on building and razing messaging apps?
poor nvidia. Their wfh policy for lots of positions is certainly dumping their stocks to the ground... oh wait...