The other day, I was thinking about how important a good handyman is for my mental health. I used to fix things myself, but spending all my free time doing home repair was withdrawing from the limited bank account of my personal sanity. Having the house broken open for months while I picked away at it after work and on weekends was bad for morale, too. And doing the work myself was sometimes dispiriting rather than empowering—If someone else makes a mistake, even if I'm paying them, I can for whatever reason tolerate that with less frustration than when I screw up myself. Accepting that I am lucky enough to have a surplus of money that I can exchange for time and serenity was a big step for me. My conclusion was that cultivating a relationship with a good handyman is of as much value for me as any other long term service relationship: doctor, therapist, waitress, barista, etc. So, even though I'm not married and not having relationship angst per se, this article makes sense to me through that reinterpretation.
I can help you with that—demolition, framing, reworking the plumbing, moving some electrical, installing some mould-resistant drywall, maybe some nice tile for the floor and some classic glazed ceramic three-by-six subway tile for the tub surround. Should take a month or two, depending on what all’s involved.
A month or two?! To re-do a bathroom? You say this like you're proud of it. I wouldn't. Accounting for drywall mudding and drying it should take a week, where most of the work happens in 2 days, on the weekend. Maybe you need 2 more days, the next weekend. Hell, take the other end of that weekend too.
1-2 month quotes is why I don't hire contractors, why I fix my own cars, and only use a personal friend for HVAC help.
It took the people we hired to redo our kitchen nearly two years. I have no doubt that the bathroom would have taken similarly long. We had a similar experience with people hired to replace our windows taking two years before the lawyers got involved. Both of these were on the medium-high prices because we got burned hiring a couple of cheap folks in the past. Joke's on us.
Things they both did:
- Not measure things properly. How on earth a "professional" can be two-four inches off on several measurements I have no idea.
- Not check the order before ordering it (and waiting months for it to be made and come in).
- Not check the order before installing it.
- Conveniently losing digital and physical copies of contracts and communications. Too bad for them we kept the signed originals.
- When I mention that it's clearly not right (prior to install) we get told something along the lines of "that's how they come from the factory, we fix it after installation". After install we get told "of course we can't fix that, you can accept it or wait another 6-8 months for new parts."
- A project manager that never actually supervises anything or shows up and has no problem lying to your face then saying something completely different in email afterwards.
- Contractor blaming manufacturer while manufacturer blames contractor. You have to take a day off work every time they come to inspect things yet again.
That's not even mentioning the constant babysitting that needs to be done (I am no contractor but maybe connect the drain to the sink before it gets turned on?) And all the little things that you end up doing yourself anyway because at this point it's just not worth it anymore like fixing all of the drywall they broke because I can do it in an afternoon and I am tired of talking to them and tired of seeing them and it will take you two weeks to come out anyway.
And we are not being picky here. It's stuff that should have been immediately obvious. Like our kitchen cabinets not having windows (we cut the windows out after install, they said). Or being three different colors (we paint them afterwards, they said). After install I find that both of those are lies and they apparently ordered the wrong cabinets and put in some other customer's cabinets on half my kitchen (one of the cabinets had over a dozen shims to make it fit properly). Three different materials (fiberboard, plywood, and solid wood). I didn't even notice that one until after install.
What about the window that was inches too big, and you didn't bother to check before ripping the old one out? Now I need to have plywood on my window for 8 months while you order a replacement. Good thing I'm not in an HOA or that would have got expensive quick. Maybe caulk the windows too? Just a suggestion but idk you're the professional you probably know better than the manufacturer.
My partner, child, or myself getting cut every time we wipe the windows. I don't care if it's the manufacturers fault come send somebody to sand them down and clip off the sharp bits. It's going to take 8 months for the new ones to come in. We're tired of bleeding every time we clean.
Lastly if you have explosive diahrrea fucking clean the toilet afterwards, especially if it splashes all the way up the lid. You are disgusting and you do shit work. And the worst part is I never even mentioned the diahrrea to them because in the grand scheme of things it was absolutely minor.
Washing dishes in the winter outside with a hose fucking sucks. And washing dishes in the tiny bathroom sink sucks. Washing dishes in a tiny bathroom sink right after someone stunk it up really sucks.
At least if you do it yourself, you can take a long time and do a shot job, and take solace knowing that if you hired someone it would have been just as bad but taken longer and been more expensive.
/rant. Sorry. The last few years have been stressful.
If you actually find someone that isn't bad hold on to them tight. Find an owner/operator who answers his own phone, does his own estimates, and does his own work.
That sucks. Personally, this is why I want to see prefabs take off, even if the price is actually more expensive. When you buy a car, it is quite rare to find major defects. In houses, defect lists are so common that Brits have a term for it, snagging lists. Prefabs should be quite close to cars in terms of quality as they are manufactured in a factory under controlled conditions. People I have met that bought prefabs from high-end manufacturers confirmed this, and had a more or less trouble-free experience.
In comparison, I have experienced major issues in every brand new house I have rented. I would not like to go through this experience as an actual owner as it would drive me insane. I have only met two contractors that were professional and took pride in their work. The rest were a bunch of wackos that only created chaos. In comparison, my experience leasing brand new cars could not be better. Get keys, drive for two years, return back. Zero issues. Given that a car is way more complex than a house, the construction industry seems terribly backwards.
Back in the 1970s, it was extremely common to buy a US-made brand-new car and have all kinds of major defects. It didn't matter that they were made in factories under "controlled conditions": the factories were poorly run, and the products that came out were junk. Dealers had large lots of cars that had just arrived from the factory and needed repairs before they could sell them. It wasn't until Japanese cars were imported in huge numbers, and had consistently high quality, that expectations changed.
The problem isn't factory vs. non-factory, the problem is culture. Many parts of American society have a culture of lying and cheating and making junk products and then lying to try to cover it up. Just look at Boeing.
Housing has a quality issue in most countries, so the way houses are built is definitely problematic.
I'm not going to understand why I was downvoted, not that I care much.
You made my point for me, we are in complete agreement.
I had to reply with my experiences after seeing those downvotes.
Much obliged.
Far too many home improvement "professionals" are just handymen or people who have worked as laborers for another contractor or are self-taught who hang out their own shingle.
Sort of the same as software engineers.
It would be nice if there were a "fizzbuzz" test we could give contractors before hiring.
Hiring people who are unionized or who went through a union apprenticeship has been fairly reliable in my experience but union guys generally don't work on small household projects and they don't come cheap.
Well the professionals are licensed bonded and insured. I only found out afterwards that the lawyer who literally wrote the contractor law in Nevada works primarily for contractors so it doesn't really help you very much. At least with handymen when you can find a good one they are better than the best professionals.
Licensed, bonded, and insured only means that they paid for those things. It says nothing about their competency.
So sad to hear you had such a bad experience. I believe sometimes marriages are like that as well.
I'm such a lucky person (knock on wood...) for not going through such serious problems in construction & love... (however getting to the point of obtaining 'true' love took a lot of time and disappointments).
If you are helping me do that work it will take more than 2 months - with kids and all they have to do I cannot do much work in a week. Monday I can work a couple hours, but only if my wife makes supper, Tuesday the girls have [mumble] so I have to cook, no time for anything else, then... Saturday might be free if the kids don't have an activity.
If I quit my job I could get the bathroom done in a couple weeks alone, and less if I can get help for the tasks that really need two people. It likely will take longer but only because of permits and inspections. However I can't afford to retire (well I can, but not on the lifestyle I want - cabins in Montana are cheap but I want lights and indoor plumbing)
I built my house from nothing, not even utilities, by myself working full time and with kids.
Sure kids activities have to go on a back burner, but sorry, they have food and shelter and after that their enjoyment has to take a backseat to the family building the house which benefits us far longer than the memories of the park or soccer practice.
I respect choices of others but ultimately I see no reason to place childrens non-needs above critical family infrastructure.
Please, don't take this as a personal judgment! I don't know you, I'm just judging what's written here.
kids activities have to go on a back burner ... I see no reason to place childrens non-needs above critical family infrastructure
This comes across as pretty callous toward your children's development! Social interactions with family are needs for children, too.
It sounds like you chose to go off and build a house unnecessarily and ignored the labor of raising your children to do it, which a lot of people would find pretty irresponsible. So as a rebuttal to someone else saying they can't make the time, because they have work and kids, I think it functions better as an argument against doing what you did. If buying an already-built home wasn't a realistic option for you, that would be very important context here.
We didn't have a home and the money I saved for a home went from being able to buy a nice house in the city to not even being able to buy a trailer in a wasteland after the COVID free interest fest. Now all those homes are locked up in rates no one will give up for less than a kings ransom.
I can assure you DIY a house was not even on my radar of life plans.
Ultimately only one option remained, buy land in a place without building codes and then build without a license. Took me awhile to find the loophole, but I executed it. I built a house for only $60k in a state where a burnt out trailer is now $150k.
What was the loophole?
1) Negative interest rates exploded prices anything eligible for mortgage. Deduction: must not buy property eligible for traditional mortgage.
2) GC and contractors exploded prices to match weak competition. Deduction: must not have someone else build house.
3) Zoning laws make small homes illegal. Deduction: must find place with weak zoning.
4) Trades licensing, codes, and inspection make DIY impossible while holding regular job. Deduction must find place without inspections or required licensing for owner builder at any point.
---------
Criteria:
Must buy raw land ineligible for mortgage, must do it in in a place with weak zoning, codes, and inspection and still be near jobs.
The loophole was totally avoiding every competitive expensive pathway and bypassing it by not competing with people fueled by free debt and not being beholden to the zoning and planning cartels. Doing that is a difficult tightrope to walk.
That's a good work-around, not really a loophole. I'm glad it worked for you, I have been thinking about doing the same.
Thank you for clarifying, it sounds like you probably did make a good decision.
That's an impressive accomplishment. My father did much the same, but hired professional contractors for some of the more complex parts.
Children don't need to participate in extracurricular activities such as travel club sports. But the reality is that not doing so kind of closes off certain future options, including reducing the odds of admission to highly selective colleges. Thus a lot of upper-middle class families prioritize those activities above having a nicer home. It's impossible to know which choices will produce better outcomes.
Beaglesses, insofar as there are sides to take here, I like yours. I would hope only that you had the option to include your children in some of the building activity-- your comment suggests you did.
Building the family's house alongside Dad sounds much more valuable than anything they would have learned playing on the school's soccer team.
I don't think the actual amount of time working changes if it takes one week or two months lol.
It doesn’t, so why drag it out for 60+ days when you can do it in 3-5
For people new to the DIY skills it requires to do it right, 2 months seems reasonable. You have to learn the skills, and when you're applying them you stop constantly to check tutorials or look for advice. You take the entire project one step at a time and you do one part before even starting to research the next.
A day of demo leaves you with an empty room with pipes sticking out of the walls. Maybe you've removed the drywall too so now you have outlet boxes and studs to work with. You take the rest of the day to finish the cleanup and triple-check your measurements for everything. Half your weekend has now been taken to demolish and clean up a core part of your home.
The next day you do your framing, including buying your lumber. Again, if you're new to this, you're probably checking a tutorial or plans every 10 minutes as you go so you make sure you're doing it right. If you have time and you're confident, you can get the plumbing set up so that it's ready to drop the tub/shower and vanity in place next weekend.
For someone with experience, this is an excruciatingly slow pace. For someone who is doing it for the first time and may never do it again, this is pretty reasonable. I would absolutely be proud of taking two months to do a bathroom if it means it's done right the first time. Going by the comments about contractors here, that's not a guarantee just because someone else can do it faster.
If you want to move the goalposts by introducing a lack of skill and materials, sure the argument falls apart.
You are debating a different point entirely.
I am a lot like this guy. I would say "repair and remain" is my preferred ethos as well. But the house/marriage comparison is an oversimplification that elides a lot of very common situations where leaving a marriage is justified.
If anything about your house is broken, you can (in principle) just fix it. You don't need the house to agree or cooperate. Even if the house is burned out or full of black mold, remediation is always an option, subject only to the resources you can bring to bear.
I dunno. It's tiresome to put qualifiers and disclaimers on everything. MAYBE in an article by a white Anglican Canadian small-business owner (such as myself except for the Anglican part), it just goes without saying that if your partner is a threat to you or your children's safety, or if there is a huge power imbalance at play, or if your partner simply refuses to join you in the work of repair, leaving is often justified.
But then again, as someone who grew up sheltered in a similar community and naively assuming that divorce was stupid and selfish 100% of the time, I tend to think those qualifiers would do more good than harm.
I’m a huge proponent of divorce. I grew up in a dysfunctional household where my parents stayed together. Their relationship was not healthy, nor were the individuals in it. My mother was physically and emotionally abusive. My father was distant and, when present, was focused on placating her. When my own marriage of 16 years ran into problems that were seemingly intractable, I finally realized I did not want similar for myself, my then-wife, or my kids. I spent several years trying to mend things, but I was the only participant. I have no regrets over leaving, it was best for everyone.
As a culture, we are moving away from upholding institutions for their own sake at the cost of individuals who may be harmed by them. I see marriage as no exception.
I’m a huge proponent of divorce.
This is such a weird thing to say. It's like saying one is a huge proponent of homicide. But then it turns out that they mean homicide when it's to protect a small child from a murderous predator. By itself the statement is just a bizarre statement of values.
Some marriages are bad, and should never have happened (I'm a proponent of people not going into clearly bad marriages, though many do). More often than not those marriages had two selfish people who will never find happiness. But divorce is no magical solution, and enormous numbers of people who choose that option regret it. Because the grass isn't always greener, and you don't suddenly regain youth, and your life isn't suddenly wonderful and free of obligation, etc. Which is clearly what this article is about, and not about abusive or broken relationships.
There's a bit of a Reddit meme that people post their "my partner forgot to put their yogurt cup in the recycling" and 90% of the replies are some variation of "lawyer up, hit the gym, dump their ass" type commentary, and it's just comical. Misery loves company. Miserable people are like Sirens of greek mythology, and their greatest hope is to encourage others to be as miserable.
As a culture, we are moving away from upholding institutions for their own sake
Divorce rates are at like a 50-year low so this is a strange statement to make.
Divorce rates are at like a 50-year low so this is a strange statement to make.
There's a reason divorce rates are low: go check out the statistics for marriage rates. They're really low too. In short, people just aren't getting married as easily as they did decades ago. You can't get divorced if you don't get married in the first place.
This is such a weird thing to say. It's like saying one is a huge proponent of homicide.
That's because you're being pedantic. Obviously, the OP is advocating divorce for highly troubled marriages, not all marriages. Which marriages are and aren't salvageable is a matter of debate of course, but you could have understood the OP's meaning if you had read the rest of the post.
There's a reason divorce rates are low:
The ratio of divorces to marriages is lower than any point since the 1970s. Fewer marriages are ending in divorce, and this is all ignoring that divorces are lagging so the effect is even more pronounced.
Obviously, the OP is advocating divorce for highly troubled marriages
It actually isn't obvious. Stating that you're a proponent of divorce without qualifiers sounds like something that a jaded spinster would say. But regardless this whole sidetrack is in relation to an article that really obviously is talking about marriages falling apart over silly things, not abusive or actually broken relationships, but invariably we get caught up in tut tut exception commentary.
Maybe your ex-wife was the one who needed to read this article.
It took me a long time to be able to be thankful that my partners didn't perpetually try to fix the structurally unsound relationships in either of my marriages. I can put up with about anything, in a sense. I am grateful they could not.
I spent about 20 years in those two relationships, and it wasn't until I got out that I realized how broken all that was.
While it is true that some marriages aren't fixable, my opinion is that people jump way too quickly to the divorce option in our culture. As such, I think that we (as a whole society) need the "try to make it work" message more than we need the "it's ok to not stick around" message.
It felt pretty clear in the article that he was talking about people who were frustrated, tired, perhaps depressed, not in duress or under threat of harm. Hedging every exception makes the article weaker; I think you can write an article about how going for a walk every day is healthy without having to add a paragraph about how obviously this won't work for paraplegics.
It's pretty clear he'd default to that advice for just about everyone who wasn't in physical danger or being abused in some way.
This is great point that demonstrates how to read ethically.
"It takes two to tango" has become a haunting refrain in my family relationships lately. I tell myself I'll be ready when they are, but I'm not sure if they ever will be.
There’s a subtle but critical difference between “I’ll be ready when they are.” and “I’m ready.”
Totally agree - I'd go so far and say that it can be a dangerous mindset.
It is possible for relationships to be damaging for one or both members. It's easy to say this the mindset of making things work doesn't apply to abusive relationships - but it's not always clear what abuse is. The very mindset that 'divorce is not an option' means that people spend far too long in dangerous situations.
From my experience - I was married for 6 years to someone who, from the same starting position, moved to a very different philosophical viewpoint to me. This evolved over time, but by the end she'd happily tell me my belief system was wrong and immoral, and that she wanted she were married to someone who shared her viewpoint. She even said that in her opinion we shouldn't be married, but that she didn't believe in divorce. She'd never accept that there was anything wrong with what she was doing - she was simply trying to save me - and when I said 'I find what you're saying hurtful' she'd tell me she had no choice but to say it.
I can only imagine how miserable a time she was having, but she saw no choice but to continue in that relationship.
This never seemed like abuse at the time - and I'm certain she didn't mean it as such - but with hindsight she broke down my confidence in myself and in who I was and left me fundamentally doubting whether I was a good person (among other things, like making relationships with friends and family difficult).
Of course, everyone's experience is unique, but when I left that relationship I felt guilty, selfish and like I'd failed. It's only with hindsight that I can say with confidence that it was the best thing for everyone involved, and I'm much happier and healthier some years and plenty of therapy later. The narrative expressed in the article means people stay in awful situations they could be well out of.
We didn't have kids - and I'd definitely have been considering different things if we did (in particular, not wanting those kids to end up with a mother whose world view I fundamentally disagreed with, without my influence), but it may well still have been the right decision.
Yeah, stuff like that is why I'll never date a religious woman again. I did it once, and it was a huge mistake.
Abuse doesn't just take physical forms; there is a such thing as emotional abuse. And where exactly do you draw the line?
Personally, I think if you're fundamentally unhappy in the relationship and the other person doesn't seem to be willing or able to change things to make you happy in the relationship, you're better off getting out. The fact that too many times, people are tied together by finances, is really a tragedy IMO. It's better to be single and alone than to be stuck with someone who's making you miserable.
Indeed, it's an important principle that you cannot change another person's mind or make them act a certain way. All you can do is influence and hope for the best.
All you can change is yourself
a lot of very common situations where leaving a marriage is justified
you need to make a much more robust argument than this. In this context, this comes across as "in and out of a marriage, that should be easy, but moving house, think a little harder on it"
it might very well be true as you say that it is common, but ideally should people commonly discover "reasons" to dissolve their marriage? How about treating the period before marriage as boot camp instead of travel, sunsets, wine and roses? I have no end of travel-sunsets-wine-roses soulmates, that's easy.
There’s always exceptions. He doesn’t talk about situations of spousal abuse, because those are houses on fire. You don’t live inside a burning house.
Related: At the beginning of my career I jumped around from startup to startup doing hardware, firmware, mobile, web dev, blockchain, Alexa/Google Home, and then started consulting. Then my client pool dried up during the pandemic. When I started at my current job 3 years ago, I decided I will stay put for a while and resist the urge to look for something "better". I wanted to take on more responsibility and learn what it is like to build software and maintain it for years to come. There are some valuable lessons I learned from doing that. The world runs on the backbone of people who are willing to stay put.
I haven’t had a raise in two years. In fact some of my benefits have been reduced, so I’m making less than when I got hired.
Next week I start a role with a 20% pay bump. Staying is only justified if your company actually reacts to the realities of the world and the job market.
Yeah, as a "stayer" I've learned every few years the company will give everyone a 10% pay raises just to catch back up. I hate switching jobs so I don't want to leave, but companies haven't figured that out.
It isn't hard - inflation is a known % every years, your average raise needs to exceeded that - once someone has experience they are only worth a cost of living raise, but juniors moving up to senior should be getting large raises every year to reflect their growth. Yet HR/management never looks at inflation before figuring out raises even though not matching inflation is how you fall behind and lost people with experience.
Of course companies have not yet learned to value experience. I'm not sure what will teach them that.
The cynic in me is certain that inflation, among other things, is a tool for lowering peoples' wages. Not in numbers, but in value.
It also reduces the value of debt.
Interest rates are usually set above inflation.
the fed typically aims for 2% inflation because if they aim for 0% inflation, the economy may experiencr deflation. if you get stuck in a deflationary spiral, it's very hard to get out
also since 2% is the typical target, they have a little room to lower rates and stimulate the economy, such as what happened in covid
Even if it isn't designed this way, it's a welcome benefit to many.
It doesn’t though. I’ve left entire knowledge bases and bulletproof tools behind and haven’t looked back. Constant maintenance is a sign of shitty design. A hallmark of craftsmanship is leaving a supportable low maintenance environment in your wake - most people’s jobs exist in a world of shitty products and the maintenance environment around them. Linus Torvalds or Ray Eames could live wherever the fuck they wanted and their impact to the “backbone” of the world would still be immeasurable.
Constant maintenance is a sign of shitty design. A hallmark of craftsmanship is leaving a supportable low maintenance environment in your wake
This rings true to me; I am no amazing programmer but things I have built (which managers complained took a bit too long) have just chugged along; I have almost never received a call about something broke badly or had major rollbacks etc. My longest record is a program I built 19 years ago which is still in use.
At the top of every source file I work on is a copyright. I maintain a program where some of those files say copyright 2014, and I created those files the first time. It's a weird feeling sitting in a single codebase that long. Satisfying but also I can't help but wonder if there are other things I could have been doing instead.
It's never too late to change tracks; I worked with a guy who spent 20 years doing Java, he shifted to consultancy building web applications. I also worked with a guy who spent 25 years of his career as a manager at a bank, but who said fuck it and went self-employed writing CSS and advocating for accessibility.
It's never too late for a change of career if you want it.
Unfortunately sometimes the best way to advance, salarywise or otherwise, is to leave. The industry should do a better job at retention.
In my 26 years of experience I can say that's the only way to advance in this industry. Programmers are just cogs in the machine no matter their skill level. A lesson I wish I learned much earlier. I grew up with a mid-western "loyalty" mindset, and it cost me many years of fair pay.
I think any experiences are valuable. It's important to learn
Whoever shared this article, thanks! So much truth. 'New' feels good at the moment of buying, but more often than not, "struggling & repairing" feels so much better afterwards. Oh the toilet doesn't flush well anymore or it keeps taking water... no problem, I know how to fix it since I did it before. Oh the kid' s sword is broken, let's fix it together! My fiancee seems unsatisfied with how I acted at the table yesterday... honey tell me what's wrong, we can talk it through.
the kid' s sword is broken
I have so many questions
I guess you don't have kids?
At first you buy those 2 dollar light plastic swords, which last a few hours.
Then you buy a tougher, floppy, one that last a week. Then you make a wooden one for them, they knock something down with it. Time to repair the tougher one.
A few years back I bought a few lengths of pipe insulation from the local Screwfix. The metre-long foam tubes, slit down the length of one side so you can push them over 15mm copper pipes.
The girl working there asked, out of interest, what I was buying them for. I started to say, pipes to the radiator are running directly behind the fridge... she interrupted to say "oh, actually for insulating pipes? We had a couple in here last week buying them for their kids to use for sword-fighting".
Sounds like a brilliant idea to me! Cheap enough to easily replace when they break. And the adults can easily nick them off their kids and have just as much fun using them to beat the shit out of each other, and they don't even hurt.
Reminds me of "swimming pool noodles", seemingly an indispensable ingredient in any top ## DIY life hacks.
When I was young, we had a "family carpenter" (he was way more important to my dad than the family doctor). He was a scrappy kind of a guy, somewhat disorganized, not great on craftsmanship but was willing to realize whatever my dad's visions of next project would be so I would see him every now and then. While he was on such an assignment, I requested a wooden sword and he made one out of the leftover wood - ugly but solid. He also made a bed-top desk for me with a compartment that had a liftable top to keep my stuff - again, ugly but solid. He would be an old man now, if he is still around.
I think those ugly and solid people who made ugly and solid things are increasingly going away and we as society are worse for losing them.
Long story short, the sword was forged during the First Age by the famed Dwarven-smith Telchar of Nogrod -- later wielded by Elendil and shattered in the Battle of Dagorlad. Once this kid's dad gets around to reforging it, it will be known as Andúril.
The Return of the Kid
This is when the doctor leaves the ER examining room for a minute and you glance at the notes. "No abuse suspected at this time" is all you have time to make out before his swift return with the prescription for the antibiotics and instructions to keep the kid calm and quiet for the next 24 hours until the anaesthesia is completely out of their system.
Don't worry, her sister's fine.
The Chinese version of a kid's sword: [1]
Context: this is a show about a bodyguard service. After several episodes of training from hell, the new bodyguards are now going out on jobs.
Also, once you've gone in and repaired something yourself, it feels more yours than it did before.
Similar to the IKEA effect
Several people here are saying something like "Life is too short to be miserable. Get out and be happy."
I tried that. In the span of a month we had a newborn, I lost my job, the market went into the worst recession since the Great Depression. Later I lost another job and we had to short-sell our house.
We got a divorce and it wasn't because of any of those things (though, they did influence it). It was because my default was to run away from my problems.
Funny thing; the divorce didn't eliminate the stress. It just moved it around in my body and mind and led to near constant anger, anxiety, and panic spasms. I went to see a therapist who taught me to be present with what I'm feeling. (He practiced Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, for anyone interested) I did that in earnest and one day about six months after starting therapy I realized what a mistake I had made in giving up on my marriage.
I reached out and we were able to repair the relationship and we've been back together for over ten years now, thankfully. We're closer than ever. I don't recommend that particular method of repairing a relationship, by the way. ;)
It hasn't always been easy since we got back together but, it has been worth it. We were talking the other day--we talk a lot, important!--and we both agreed that at the start of our relationship, our feelings for each other were very intense. Now that we've been together for over twenty years (with a short "We were on a break!" in the middle) we find that the intensity of our love for each other isn't the same but it is so much deeper than it was at the start and only grows more so the more we're together. We realized that you can only get that if you stay and work on the relationship.
My understanding is that Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) is considered a "fourth wave" psychotherapy, whereas Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) is considered more "third wave". Many therapists still focus on CBT, so those that are interested in ACT will have to seek out practitioners of it.
The classic consumer-facing book about CBT is "Feeling Good", and a good consumer-facing book about ACT is "The Happiness Trap."
I share this because your comment may resonate with people, and I think it's important to understand that ACT is quite different than the more-common CBT.
Since the OP never once mentioned CBT, why did you feel the need to give such a detailed description of the difference between the two? Why not go ahead and talk about the differences between ACT and the dozen other therapies out there?
Because I feel like most people have heard of CBT, but don’t realize that a “major version upgrade” to it is available.
Thank you for clarifying that.
I'm happy for you and proud of you.
Thanks so much for sharing that. I'm so glad that you and your dear one have gotten to such a beautiful place! I had to learn a similar lesson with regard to self-love and care from dealing with type-1 diabetes. My aha came in the form of the phrase "love is maintenance".
Wow! Congratulations and good on you for putting in the work to bring it back around. We'd be better as a society if more had the emotional fortitude to do what you did.
I've seen too many marriages fall apart because a single party was apathetic long enough that the second party finally got the memo. It's a tragedy in every sense of the word; especially for the kids.
I cannot overrecommend marriage counseling. (And if you have kids, make sure the counselor has their own kids. It matters a lot.) We tend to devise all manner of distortions about how our spouse really feels, and fear saying things that need to be said. It literally saved my marriage.
The reason it has a poor track record IMHO is what this guy is saying about the nail clipper: don't let the problems fester. Oncologists can only save people who are diligent about doing their cancer screenings to catch problems early.
make sure the counselor has their own kids
I sense a hint of prejudice, the “you’ll understand once you have kids” trope. Surely counsellors training is more important than their personal situation?
Yes, but there's a difference between learning the theory and experiencing the practice. When you see a counsellor you need to trust them and know that they understand; if they say "I understand what it's like to have a child like that because I read about it in a book" you will never be able to take them seriously.
It depends on the type of therapy, I suppose, but I am not sure it’s reasonable to expect the therapist to have experienced all of the circumstances/problems you’re coming to them with. In my view, a good therapist should have the skills to ask the right _questions_, not give you the _answers_. They should help _you_ reflect and problem-solve.
Both matter, IME. The necessary empathy to make it work can be very hard to engender when the counselor can only understand the dynamics of what children do to a marriage on a detached, observational level.
For the most part, "repair and remain" is very good advice, but there's a small but significant percentage where it's the opposite of what you should do. Sometimes you live in a building that's ready for teardown and you should leave (metaphorically and literally).
True, but I think the point of the article is that, in modern life, we tend to err strongly in the other direction.
The grass is greener on the other side, so to speak, but instead of going to the other side you can also learn lawn care and fix your own.
Great metaphor
Yeah, but this is good advice precisely because most people don't do it and it's not intuitive.
Beautiful view. When you have faith, really, you have everything. all that's left are liabilities when you don't. It's the heavy lift. such sparse and honest writing, I often forget pastors are usually really good at that.
Honest communication for me is the key for development in any field of life
The problem / resistance there is denial, that is, for example your relationship would end (possibly badly) if you actually were honest.
become honest with yourself and recognize your responsibility for your own life and the people you've brought into it, and then do (don't say) what someone who was responsible for them would do, come what may.
I think the key difference in this analogy that needs to be acknowleded is that in a house repair, the owner of the house needs to want the repairs, and agree to pay for them. You can decided to stay in a relationship and try and fix it but unless the other person is also willing to try and fix it too, you're not going to get anywhere.
While true, most often both have some want and just don't see how to fix things up. If you can figure out how to fix things up then that is the best thing to do.
While I'm a big believer in marriage for life, I do recognize that sometimes past you messed up and leaving is the best option. 75% (maybe more) of my message isn't about fixing up the current relationship, but carefully choosing who you get into one with in the first place.
If you're trying to fix it in good faith, then marriage counseling and the like is already going to be in the conversation. Still, you can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink. Maybe most couples can reach a compromise, but the blank-slate attitude in the article is for the birds. It's informed by religious conviction. The sanctity of marriage is what's at stake and one's own happiness is secondary.
The sanctity of marriage is what's at stake and one's own happiness is secondary.
Let's not forget about the happiness of one's spouse and kids.
Sometimes I'm like, "Why do I still read Hacker News?" And then I read something like this, and I'm like, "This is why!"
+1
Ditto.
But a brand-new house won’t fix your troubles any more than a fresh start with a fascinating new somebody will.
With full-grown adults (ie 27-28+), there is rarely such a thing as a fixer-upper. If you’re unhappy with your fully adult partner, cut and run. Life is short and opportunity cost is real. You are doing them and yourself no favors.
I don't think it's necessarily so black and white. Both parties fell for something, if that's still there, maybe it can be found again. Maybe.
If not, sure I agree with you. I don't think it's advisable to stay in an absolutely unhappy AND unfixable relationship. But I do think it's worth trying to fight for it.
I'm in a 15 year long relationship, and it's not been smooth sailing. Some experiences require knowing each other very deeply.
This is a very powerful experience IMO.
That's a bit short-sighted; test whether they are open to change first. A lot of people in this thread are older people who went through therapy and life changing events (that is, change) after ten years, and saved relationships and the like.
That said, "I can fix him/her" isn't a good way to enter a relationship.
Its always the next rewrite of the codebase that is the final one, isn't it?
So long as I'm around and have a voice the last was the final one. On hindsight we could have refactored the existing code in place for similar costs - and have results to show much quicker, while a few rarely used features that we decided not to rewrite would still be working (with the old ugly UI).
In hindsight I should've made some performance improvements and left after a year, but they hired me to rewrite their 60K LOC configuration webapp in a technology stack of my own choosing so I did. After two and a half years I was at 20% or so and there was no outlook on them actually hiring the full team that it needed like I indicated early on.
The "Comment" magazine looks nice, nowadays I don't see many appealing printed magazines. I wonder if there are print publications out there on technical subjects that interest me.
Stripe's Increment Magazine was pretty cool, but it seems like they stopped publishing new editions in 2021: https://store.increment.com/
On the slightly less technical side, I've been enjoying Asterisk Mag: https://asteriskmag.com/
Wow Asterisk looks exactly like what I'm interested in!
100%. As I've gotten older, the things that have given me the most satisfaction are those that take place over a long time.
It's kind of like planting trees - it can take a while to see the fruit, but then it keeps on giving with some ongoing maintenance.
In my life, my significant other, my career, and financials are those areas I heavily invested early on, and a decade on they are quite strong. I still struggle, but when I take a step back, I can see these are very good and feel grateful.
There were many times I have been tempted to leave. But I kept an eye on the big picture, what would leaving really change for me? And the answer was not much, I am still me (as noted in the article).
On the other hand, I have under invested in myself (health, hobbies, spirituality) and friends. My main struggle is working to shift my focus away from maximizing the former, and begin balancing more of the latter.
It's an ongoing journey :)
I’d like to add something else to that list - the connectedness you feel in a community: the neighbors you grab beer with and help out in a pinch; the cashiers you get to know over time; the people at the after hours sports team or hobbyist community you get to know. Move to a different city (or even across town!) and that takes time to rebuild.
It’s why I nearly considered an academic career and decided against it - having to constantly move for grad school, then post doc positions, onwards and onwards regularly never appealed to me.
Zen and the Art of Life Maintenance
I see what you did there ;) One idea from the book that stuck with me is that we are too often in a rush to get this or that done, so we can move on with our life. Instead, we can take the time to do it the right way and find some kind of happiness in the process.
Same with pastoring: no point thinking you need a brand-new life, but, well, let’s not kid around—you could use some serious updates and upgrades yourself.
This is the core presumption of the arrogance of the christian faith. The very concept that mankind is inherently flawed, always in need of cosmic repair from some imaginary being.
If that isn’t the epitome of a toxic and pathological worldview, I don’t know what is.
Literally everything good in this life was conceived of and created by mankind.
Yes, it is toxic and pathalogical to assume you are perfect and hurl unsubsantiated allegations. So, please stop.
You only have about 70 years on this earth, out of which only about 50 are healthy and independent. Don't waste them being miserable. Don't waste your partner's time either.
Misery is (usually) a choice. Yes, there are situations of exploitation and abuse, and that's why I put in the caveat, but even if you imagine situations that seem terrible from where you're sitting now, most of them have examples where someone is living them and is still joyful.
I love the feeling I get when I recycle or repurpose something that would have been trash into something useful. Especially if it becomes even more beautiful from its past patina.
This can go too far and put you in a cycle of spending all of your time tending jank (and lowing your quality bar). It's a fine edge to walk. but that pleasure hit that most people get from buying stuff, it doesn't work for me. Buying new things often makes me feel guilty. Re-using or repurposing something though... for me it's one of the best highs there is.
Loved this article. My two "superpowers" as a dad - superglue and new batteries. Sometimes I get to bring out the soldering iron - my wife will bring things home from Buy Nothing so I can fix it, the kids play with it for a day, and then we let it go again, but this time in working condition :)
As the saying goes, "Wherever you go, there you are."
I enjoyed this article. As a bit of a contrast, I also recommend this article I came across yesterday, which criticizes the American idea of building a home as an isolated utopia:
"The Suburban Lifestyle Dream" https://www.ryanpuzycki.com/p/the-suburban-lifestyle-dream
Even as the West has built some of the world’s most extraordinary cities, this Puritanical, anti-urban throughline runs across our culture. The desire to return to an Edenic state is a central theme in the story of how the “Suburban Lifestyle Dream” first entered our collective conscience. That dream has powered the unique pattern of suburbanization that typifies much of modern America—one marked by “stratified and segregated social geography” and “relatively low density.”
"It's that simple, and that hard." --Richard Hamming
(but, he was talking about doing science)
You can't run from problems; you need to solve them. Very good thoughts
This reminds me, syntactically and conceptually, of the philosophy of parkour I was introduced to when I began practising it during uni.
"Être et durer" - to be and to endure. Train for the future, sustainably, without ruining your body.
And, "être fort pour être utile" - be strong to be useful. Parkour (as opposed to freerunning) emphasizes the goal, movement, reaching or escaping.
Film cameras are not obsolete
now the drain was rusted and when I went to loosen the nut, the steel sink cracked and split, but it was an old sink so I couldn’t find a matching one to replace it with, so that meant the old vanity had to go too, but that left an odd footprint on the curled, old linoleum, so then the flooring had to go too, and, well, if you’re going that far, you might as well put in a new tub.
This is a lot like those cascades of technical debt that must be overcome to fix some otherwise minor thing.
Wait a minute, is this a metaphor for our relationship with high tech? I want to breakup with my Pixel 6 because its camera lacks megapixels...
It does come down to mindset. I do my yard work, 1 acre, mowing, edging, trimming, leaf blowing, raking, etc. My entire mindset when I do it is, "It's exercise". I do car repairs and own 2 classic cars. My mindset is "It's yoga!" There's the fun of figuring out how to solve problems I haven't, I work with computers all day and I get to work with my hand. My family gets to see me do things and it's very important for them to know they can do things and solve problems by themselves, I sometimes involve them so it's not me alone but a family thing. The mindset is very important. allow yourself to make mistakes, have fun with it. It's never been this easy! First go to youtube, watch a few videos, read a book or blog and get to work. What I find that makes it frustrating for a lot of people is not having the proper tools, extra hands if needed and knowledge.
I love to put a good sound system in my car or tweak the suspension, but when it comes to something boring, repetitive and messy like an oil change I outsource to my local garage. I'll take my laptop with me to work in the lobby, my hourly rate is higher than theirs so I even make a little profit.
It takes me about 30mins - 45 minutes to do my oil change, it takes me 20 minutes to go the dealership, another 20 to go home and about an hour wait. So I often save about an hour of my time doing it. There's nothing mess about it, I have an overall I put on when working on cars, about $40 from amazon. I put on gloves, and pre lay paper wipes where the oil might drip. Once I'm done, I take the gloves off, clean up, toss in trash, done. The only extra is that I just have to collect the oil and once a year go dispose it when the city collects hazardous materials which costs me about an hour of work. About 10 oil changes a year and I'm saving 10 hrs. When I do physical work is the time that I take to step out of the computer and think about code.
0_o
Why are you doing 10 oil changes a year lol? Most people do ~2
IDK, I'm a fan of 'do it yourself at least once to understand what's involved', but I'm totally okay outsourcing it based on cost+time+risk otherwise.
2 main cars, 4x every 3 months we put 3-5k miles and 2 classic cars. 1x each
I use the 25k mile synthetic oil. Changing your oil lets in dust and so I only do it when I must, no more often. Even if your use conventional oil, 3k miles is way too often with modern oils (the oil change companies love to say 3k miles as they make a lot of money)
Being European I do my oil change once a year and since the oil disposal location is on the same street as my local garage, I need to drive there anyway so no time lost there. And as I'm working and making money in the lobby while waiting for my car to be ready, I count that as a zero loss.
You might not find it messy, but I do. I don't like doing it. And it costs me the same amount of time and money if I have my mechanic do it, so that is why I outsource it.
Newer European cars (e.g. BMW) only require it every 2 years or every 30.000km even.
I've done my own oil changes a few times in the past, but I don't bother anymore, and just have a mechanic deal with it. They're faster at it than I am, and I don't have to drive out somewhere special to dispose of the old oil. It ends up being cheaper to have someone else do it, too. I also don't drive all that much, so I don't have to worry about timeliness here; I can just have them do the oil change when I bring the car in for some other servicing.
I get that you want to do it yourself, and that you've made different value judgments over the various aspects of doing it yourself vs. having someone else do it. But understand that others of us have also made different value judgments, and our situations aren't always the same.
I dunno, it takes me about 15 minutes of actual work to change my oil, vs driving to and from the shop and waiting. It’s like a 10x time difference, and I’m still probably doing it with more care than Jiffy Lube.
Impressive that in addition to doing the work, you also can take the oil somewhere it can be disposed of safely and properly within that 15-minute time frame.
I have about 10 5-quart jugs stashed away in my garage, I’ll eventually bring them to the auto parts store when I already need to go there for something. It’d be silly to make a dedicated trip each time.
If I count the time it takes me to properly dispose of the oil it takes me the same amount of time.
And I luckily have a mechanic that I fully trust with my car. They are specialised in my make and model. Even have the correct socket for the oil plug, which I do not have.
I truthfully can't imagine caring about how my yard looks that much. It will get mowed when it gets too long but otherwise I let whatever wants to grow, grow, and spend maybe an hour tops on it every couple of weeks. My family would much rather do things with me than see me toil away on a green hellscape.
Grass is literally a hellscape for pollinators and the only thing that spends time on most lawns is a mower. I don’t understand it either.
“My family gets to see me swear at my old cars that get 10mpg that I insist on owning and somehow justify by imagining they’re learning anything beyond another datapoint as to why we shouldn’t all own and maintain lifeless landscapes and pollution machines that only serve to stroke our fragile egos”
I'm sure you have hobbies other people could insult you for too and if you don't you likely don't have any hobbies at all.
I like long walks on the beach and not bending over backwards attempting to justify my unsustainable environmental impact and consumption habits.
Shoot.
Maybe your grass, but my grass is full of clover, and other wild flowers. I save a lot of money on chemicals and it looks good enough.
They can tend your garden with you.
Oh man, agreed. When I a teenager, my family moved to a house that had 3 acres of grass. At our previous house (1/2 acre), we just had a standard push mower, and that was fine. Now we had to buy a small tractor. I remember being tasked to mow those 3 acres when my dad deemed me old enough, but he would always scold me if I did it too quickly, because he thought it wasn't safe to run it at its top speed on our hilly yard, plus he believed the tractor cut poorly if you went to fast.
Overall it was just a huge waste of time and money for everyone involved. At least the tractor had a plow attachment that was useful for clearing the driveway of snow in the winter, so it wasn't a single-task purchase. Then again, if we had a smaller plot of land, the driveway would have been short enough to handle with shovels, so...
As an adult, now we have a house out in a mountainous area where there's snow on the ground for as long as 5 or 6 months out of the year. Grass doesn't really survive there, so most of the land is just dirt or whatever strange weeds/plants will grow on it on their own. Much easier to deal with.
Completely agree! The number of people I know who I think would struggle to know whether to hold the plastic or metal end of a screwdriver is depressing to me. I want my kids to grow up with a basic knowledge of mechanics, mechanisms, repairs/maintenance, and experience the world as things that can mostly be understood (and created) rather than things that are conceived and made by others and merely consumed by "normal people".
It also has saved a fair amount of money over the years, but the mindset is more important to show my family than the dollars.
When I need to work on something around my house that's new to me, I'll spend a little time watching videos of other people doing the thing. That gives me enough of an idea of how involved the work is.
If it's not going to be a quick or easy fix, I then do the calculation of whether or not I want to trade time that I would normally spend on myself or my family for the project. These days there aren't many things that meet that bar. I guess I would frame it as "spend your time wisely because you are rapidly running out of it".
My dad died a few years ago and I've never once wished he had spent more time working on stuff around the house. We would occasionally get in the car and drive somewhere inconsequential talking the entire time. That's what I wish I had more of. All the other stuff I can get from YouTube.
I don't see why driving in a car is a better place to talk than fixing the sink.
A car ride is one of the absolute best places to have a conversation. No interruptions, nobody shows up, just enough scenery changing to keep you looking around, but not in view long enough to keep you distracted.
I lived in a pretty small, rural area and my dad loved to drive. Everything he saw could trigger some kind of story. Plus there were random stops for ice cream which was awesome.
With my kids (who are in college now), there's no way they are going to sit around while I try to fix the sink. If I want to spend time with them, I have to give some consideration to their preferences.
Some of my fondest memories are of my Dad and I working on things together. One of the things I most valued about him was his willingness to dive in and learn how things worked, and sometimes even fix them. To each their own, I suppose.
If it’s your gardens or your toy car it’s a different experience than if it’s your family bathroom or family car. There is time pressure and angst at not having your daily use things in working order
If it is your family bathroom or car, if you have worked on it before, chances are that you can deal with a problem on the spot thanks to the skills you learned and the tools you got for the occasion. No need to wait for the handyman. And if it is a problem you can't solve, you may also have better understanding, which makes explaining the situation to a professional easier.
The entire premise here is that's not the case. The repair/remodel drags out because you're doing it in your spare time, and mistakes and setbacks are a drag on your motivation. Meanwhile you and your family aren't able to use your main bathroom (or whatever), and that stresses you out, makes you feel guilty that progress isn't happening faster.
I get this, and will call a handyman for some jobs, but I try to do repairs and "upgrades" myself when the work seems manageable to me.
I guess it depends on where you live, but getting an electrician around here takes so much time and effort, not to mention money, you could by half way through to training for a journeyman degree by the time he shows up.
Perhaps a downside of becoming halfway proficient as a handyman is all the people asking for your help. But you can see it as an upside as well, if they are friends and you enjoy helping them out.
Heh, I tend to agree with this. Unfortunately reality always seems to disagree. No matter how simple the job, _something_ new will go wrong that requires multiple trips to home depo, putting it back together & ordeing parts off amazon, or bodging together some sort of fix that's kinda trash but gets the stupid thing working again today.
Another benefit — no one can tax your own labor for yourself. 100% of your effort goes towards your own gain.
I don't think labor is taxed. Income is though.
Edit: Meaning that the Jiffy Lube guy has to pay income tax on what he earns at his job, but you don't have to pay tax on the labor expense to you.
In some jurisdictions, like in Norway, for instance, if you are a craftsman working on your own property, you are (supposed) to pay VAT on the added value your work brings to the property.
I expect very few people to report this to the authorities, unless, of course, you are going to do something which is significant enough to require you to apply for a building permit.
In states with a sales tax, you do pay sales tax on the labor charges.
Hah easy to have this mindset on your fun projects than your commuter.
Rejetting carbs on your motorcycle that you use for commuting, goes from a fun weekend project to 1AM Monday morning nightmare really quick. :)
Oh man, I got to "rejetting carbs" and had the momentary urge to toss a chair out a window and then dive out after it. Kudos if you'll do your own carb work, that's where I draw the line.
I keep telling myself that carbs are an obsolete technology and there's no reason to learn them.
I almost believe myself.
Unless you've got a burning desire to perform stupidly fiddly restorations on old lawnmowers there really isn't. You couldn't pay me to own a gas powered tractor, and EV conversion kits are starting to get good enough that dicking around with anything smaller than a dragster is less like a reasonable hobby and more like a weird fetish at this point. Full disclosure: I've got a holly 4 barrel sitting in a box waiting to go on my 62 fairlane this fall. I may be a glutton for punishment.
If there was a physical "undo" button, I could get behind this philosophy; however I notice neither a compiler to point out small mistakes nor an undo to help out with big mistakes. Having transformed some small plumbing things from easy to fix to really expensive to fix, I'm happy to know I live in a society with some degree of specialization. The plumber mightn't know they need to have good error handling policies, but they use my company's products, and we all go home happy. (This is also why I'm not in ops, except the odd heroic fire-fighting exercise; when I'm bored I like to change things to increase my knowledge of how it all works; I need worried and steady co-workers to keep things running).
I had two reactions to this -
The first is that's part of why I like working on low-stakes physical projects - especially when I'm working in my garden, I'm almost aggressively improvisational, just trying to use whatever's on hand to do the job and fixing things as I go. Because the garden is mine and just an absolute hobby, I get to play around, and the feeling of satisfaction I get from cobbling something together to solve a problem easily matches delivering a carefully-done plan.
The second is that undo button makes us sloppy. I noticed this the first time I went into management - the hardest part of the job was I had no idea if I'd done something right and no way to do it again if I didn't. It's made me sloppy a few other places as well, where I've found myself staring at something and thinking "well shit, there's no undo here, is there?" I think spending some time with some things that have stakes and can't be undone is healthy, and I think programming somehow makes us both sloppier and more risk-averse by its almost unbounded undo-ability.
Parenting was where I learned how to live with the lack of an undo. One gets used to it, but I find cyberspace much easier: I can try 1000 things in a few days and come out with a solution that seemed maybe impossible up front. Although one does get many chances to hone the interactions with kids, mistakes are not zero cost :) and once the parent and kid really master something, the kid grows a bit and the old solution reaches the end of its validity.
I would emphasize both that the undo-ability is very freeing and that the compiler/tests guardrails let one focus on the novel part rather than the routine part.
Yep, folks will come at this kind of things their own ways, and that’s all good.
I likewise care for an acre, and fix as much as I reasonably can — from the small to the large. I once avoided a “dominos” problem when a built-in fridge died, which they no longer made parts for, and was a different size than today’s so the cabinetry would need redone, which would make the rest of the kitchen look worn, which would make the wood floors look worn (all in all, I was facing lots of zeros).
Then I thought for a while and decided to test all the capacitors on the PCB (in place, which required buying a tester). About $150.08 and two days later the fridge was working (the eight cents was for the bad cap).
That said, I know my limits and call in the “pros” for jobs I don’t relish or wouldn’t trust my own work (e.g. car brakes).
Knowing how to repair things doesn’t mean one always has to.
Definitely comes down to mindset. And circumstances. And, as you note - having adequate tools for the job. (Not necessarily the ideal tools, but enough to get the job done without it turning into a grind.)
Working on my tractor in the summer, when it mostly sits idle anyway? A pleasure, I can tinker with it a few hours every now and then and bring it all back into working order before I need it. It almost feels like meditation, being focused on fixing a very real problem rather than optimizing some abstract piece of code.
If it is in the middle of winter, freezing inside the shed and I NEED it to be working by next morning in order to clear the snow, thus enabling the kids to get to school and my wife and I to work?
Not quite as enjoyable.
But, as you say - with the proper mindset and a can-do attitude, it is incredible what tasks you can figure out how to do by studying the problem, asking for a little help, looking stuff up on the 'net.
Experience? That is recognizing the tasks you had better leave to someone else. :)
I got a lawn guy to do about the 1/2 acre that I keep mowed. At the time, I was traveling a lot and there are certain times of the year when you just can't let things go. This year I hired his crew for a couple because the state of my property had just gotten overwhelming so they did a lot of cutting, weedwhacking, etc. It's still very far from pristine suburban--I basically live in the country--but it got me to the point where I could spend a reasonable amount of time to get things under control. (I'm also basically spending the summer to get a bunch of interior stuff in my house done as well.)
More inborn personality traits than mindset, according to the reading I've done.
My take is... if you do something because you enjoy it, go for it. We all have hobbies and stuff we like doing. If instead you do something because it saves you money, do some math first to check if your time isn't more valuable. I might be, it might not be, but think about it and only then make the call.
I always tell people, the most valuable thing you can buy with money is time. I can clean my house, but I am fortunate enough now that I can pay someone else to do it. I don't sit around and do nothing in that time, I enjoy my life or do other tasks. I never feel bad exchanging money for time.
The issue I often find is that by the time I pay taxes on my own salary, their salary, their insurance and overhead, I lose more time hiring it out unless my wages are at least 3-4x theirs.
The real hack to DIY is you eliminate taxes and insurance, other than sales tax. It's one of the few ways to actually keep almost all the value you generate.
Indeed. For me to end up with the same amount of money after paying a company $100 rather than doing something myself, I have to go out and make an extra $167. That company probably then pays the actual worker something between $25 and $50, so I have to have a quite high multiple (plus the opportunity to just go work a small amount extra for pay) to make the trade make economic sense.
All of which is strong argument in favor of replacing all income tax with land tax.
The idea starts to make a lot of sense once you look at its framing. This includes the argument you make above (why can't you hire help out of pre-tax income, like any other business can?) and more on the legitimacy of taxation.
https://lawliberty.org/book-review/georgism-revisited/
Leaving aside the obvious fact that your personal activities are not a business[0], you can indeed hire help out of pre-tax income -- in the U.S. no one pays income tax on their gross income, only their taxable income. By the time common tax credits are factored in, a married couple with children may easily have $30-40K of gross income each year not subject to income tax.
Many, if not most, homeowners do not need to go out and work extra hours to pay someone to do work to repair their property, any more than they need to work extra hours to pay for food and clothing, so looking only at the marginal tax rate is misleading (as in the example above of earning an extra $167 to have $100 after tax).
Further, work you pay for that improves the property (as opposed to repairs) is added to the tax basis of the property, reducing future taxable income when the property is sold. Along with the potential to exclude up to $250K/$500K (single/married) of gain[1] from selling the property is a huge source of pre-tax income.
[0]and even businesses can only deduct expenses for people they hire for services that are related to generating a profit.
[1]Section 121 exclusion
The decision to work extra in order to pay to outsource a task vs doing it yourself (as was framed above) is exactly the type of economic decision where the full marginal tax rate applies.
Fica is ~15% on gross and get paid both ways, when you earn and then double dipped as tax on labor you hire.
So that's about 30% gone right there for engaging in labor trade before you even consider income tax
Is this the basis of the so-called "human-centred economy" that seems to be gaining attention?
When I first heard of it, it seemed like it literally described the very same economic model we're accustomed to. But now that you mention this, there does seem to be an underscore of "just 2 guyz who are having a good time", without proper accounting of the exchange of value, thereby making it difficult to prove that a taxable event occurred.
Helping out in your community: the new face of tax evasion? Hear about this new threat to the economy, live at 11.
The idea that trading money for time is only worth it if you can spend that time making an equivalent amount of money, implies that the only value of time is as a resource for making money.
On its face, that doesn't seem to stand up to scrutiny.
For some types of services, once you've found a person who does good work, you can privately ask them if they'd like to cut out the middleman: they get a pay raise and you pay less. This is particularly relevant for online services that find a professional for you.
I hear this a lot, but it discounts a few things:
- the enjoyment of creating or building something decent (if you enjoy it)
- the enjoyment of learning for its own sake
- the knowledge that the next time you do this task, you'll be more efficient at it
- the knowledge of how the process works, so you know it was done right, and can fix it if it breaks
There's a variety of others. I agree that if it's a task you don't enjoy or don't rely on, then outsourcing it often a great idea.
Some things greatly reward a DIY attitude. Like knowing how to wrench on your bike when you're on a trip far in the wilderness and something goes wrong. You can even help out others!
Completely agree, but you're ignoring that not everyone gets the same enjoyment out of everything.
For example, I enjoy doing electrical work, but hate plumbing. I'll do the former, but hire someone to do the latter.
Last year we bought a house that had a bunch of windows with missing screens. I ended up making new frames for all but one of those windows. The last one I didn't get to with the time constraints I had, and I've been procrastinating for the past year because it's a repetitive, fiddly job that doesn't really give me any joy. I'm sure I'll get around to the final screen eventually, but not every DIY project gives enjoyment for everyone.
First line: "(if you enjoy it)"
Second last line: "I agree that if it's a task you don't enjoy or don't rely on, then outsourcing it often a great idea."
Your comment literally makes no sense. I pay someone to clean my house so I can spend more time building things and learning things. Do you enjoy having less time to do all the things you mentioned?
I disagree, and in particular your point about "frustration", I find the opposite to be true for me.
If I hire someone to do something, and they do a bad job, I have to beg them to come out and fix it, if they even will at all. And they're the only one with the knowledge and experience and tools to do the repair, so I feel frustrated that I'm unable to resolve it, its going to be like that forever.
If I do something myself, now I've learned how to do it, and buying any necessary tools and equipment to do it was probably cheaper than hiring someone to do it. And if I do a bad job, I console myself that I could fix it if I cared enough, even if I never get around to it. At some point it'll annoy me enough that I will fix it, or it won't and I won't care. Personally, I find this to be much better for my mental health.
Even better, never fix anything, live in squalor, and be happy that you could have a better life if you worked harder.
I agree with the person you are responding to and your snarky remark bothers me to no end. No one will care more about your house and problems than you do so they will often do a more sloppy job and the only thing that saves their face is their experience of doing their job more often than you do.
There's always more things that needs to be done than time you have.
In practice you always need to prioritize between
1. what will you spend your time to learn and do it good
2.what will you spend your money to make others do it worse(coin flip, it may be good)
3. or not do it at all.
The choice is not trivial.
This has really driven my decisions a lot. I've found that pretty much any set of tools I could need for common home repair costs less than 2 hours of labor that someone would charge me.
Sure, my time acquiring these tools and using them isn't worthless, but I personally enjoy doing it and find that to have value in and of itself. (Certainly that's not true of everyone.)
There are some cases where I just don't want to deal with it, though. For example, I needed a new railing put on my deck a few months ago. I know I'm not great at woodworking, and honing those skills doesn't really interest me all that much; someone else would do a much nicer job of it than I would. I didn't want to have to buy some more tools that I don't really have good storage space for. My compromise was to hire a handyman I trust to build the railing, but I decided I would stain it myself.
For me, it also costs less than the 2 hours I have to spend contacting them, letting them into my house, deciding what I actually want (instead of just winging it), etc.
The tools keep costing less and less, as they're used over and over for projects. I haven't bought a new tool in a long time. Perhaps the exception is the specialized little tools needed to work on my bicycles. But even there, I can either fix it myself during my off time, or fit a time into my schedule to take my bike somewhere and then get it back.
There's work that I don't do. We all choose our battles.
I don't think you're disagreeing with me so much as being a different person with different tastes.
I do this, but I sometimes think it was a mistake in the end. There are often tools and materials I didn’t consider that I needed to pay for. I recently built a 24’ fence. I think I saved a tiny amount of money but I can see every little flaw. It also took me several months and probably would have been a day or two for a pro.
I don't bother learning these things because I'm never going to get enough practice to get good at it, and my time is already accounted for. There is nothing in my schedule I would eliminate to make space for learning such things. Let everyone do what they're good at.
I got good at them growing up because I had a family. When someone was going a project they called the family and a dozen people showed up. We were never good, but we all knew enough to get the job done and teach each other a little more - after a few years we had a reasonable grasp of nearly everything because we had done it.
I miss living near them. I no longer have a network I can call for help on projects and so the things I can get done are very limited.
You can also rely on them to share tools. When you're on your own, does it make sense to buy the numerous tools that you only use once in a blue moon? Now I have to decide if I want to buy or rent them. Well if I'm going to go that trouble I can just pay someone to do it too.
You can rent some tools. If nothing else I often justify a good tool because if I hired someone the pro would have the good tools. Typically the first time I do a job myself I lose money on tools - but the next time I have that tool and so I save a lot. Of course over the years I have a good idea what tools I'm likely to use.
What if you are good at learning new things?
If it gives you joy do it. I find no intrinsic joy in plumbing, electrical work, and so on; it's a chore to me. The payoff in seeing the job done often pales beside the trouble I have to go to complete it. With more skill, the balance tips in favor of doing it yourself. I'm at that point at other things. I can prepare a good meal faster than you can order it.
There's a lot to be said for not having too much work in progress. Sometimes it's better to bring in a whole crew and get the job done.
Or alternatively doing less at a time. Can you replace the vanity without doing the floor, then when that is done do the shower, then the toilet/floor. (in most bathrooms the toilet is the only think that needs to sit on the floor, the rest you can shim and then hide the seam in some trim). I try to break all my projects down into things I can do in a day - often not possible, but when it is I'm more likely to get them done.
Then you paint the place several times. Or it looks partly done for a long time.
Paint is quick and easy. Not that I disagree with your point, but it isn't a big deal.
Agree - I have a great handyman who also lets me "help". I can do the grunt work (carrying heavy stuff from the truck, demoing stuff, etc) saving him time, and he can do the stuff he's experienced at (he can eyeball a measurement and do a perfect cut much faster and better than I ever could) saving me time. Plus I get to learn how to do stuff. I get to be involved so I feel ownership, I get much better work done than if I did it myself, and I learn so that I can start to take on more projects myself.
I think this is awesome and I think I need to find a handyman like that.
PS: I am sure this isn't the case, but I am having this funny image in my head of a handyman giving you "work" so you don't mess with his stuff, like a parent gives their kids some mock work when they are too small to actually help.
PPS: Don't do this with your kids for too long - they can figure out at a pretty young age if they are just playing or actually helping.
Ha! When we were putting in the flooring in the kitchen, I kept interrupting him "optimizing" the layout and he snapped at me like one of his workers. He immediately apologized since I was paying him, but I told him that he was supposed to yell at me because he is the boss when it comes to building stuff. He knows what he's doing and I'm just trying to learn. We have a great relationship and I know when to back off and let the expert just do the right thing.
As someone who does more than the average person’s share of DIY, I agree for another reason: when I do want to do a project, I want to do the kind of project that pleases me. I’m experienced enough to know I hate drywall work, and I don’t really want to do plumbing on drains or concrete, so, I always have pros do that. But, I’m pretty happy to hack through some trim carpentry and electrical any day.
I feel seen. I can't stand drywall work - although I'll do a patch'n'texture that's too small to hire out if i absolutely have to. The folks who do drywall for a living are magicians that can knock out the job 5x faster than me, and 20x better. I'll pay all day.
Electrical on the other hand I find to be a blast. It's more a hobby than a chore, although there are some things I won't touch, like running conduit for lv or installing a sizable solar system. The pros are just so good at it.
Cars too - I'll change every fluid, do brake jobs, install short shift kits, dashcams, even got a windows VM running so I could use old software to read OBD-I codes on my old car. But timing or a top-end rebuild.. I leave that to the pros.
I think there's something to be said for doing like 80% of the things yourself even when you can afford more. It's so gratifying to do even a simple job and when it's done, it's done. It's so unlike most of our day-to-day that's full of multi-month efforts that depend on other people.
You can do timing, it's definitely shade mechanic level, not hard at all. Just need a timing light and tachometer.
I absolutely agree, but I am having hard time finding such a person... The one who show up and who will do things right... The thought of trying to find a person like that, are multiple failures, just makes it easier to do it myself, even if I will hate spending time on it.
I recommend asking around in your social circle of other homeowners. If you know someone who deals with houses a lot, like a realtor, ask them for recommendations. I got my handyman rec from my realtor, and he's fantastic.
Its so funny I feel the exact opposite. I love doing work around the house as it saves money and also brings me immense satisfaction. I work in software so all of my toil is on ethereal products, if the company goes under all of my work is lost for eternity(well unless the internet archive keeps it alive). But with upkeep on a house I am making my physical environment better and the effects will survive a long time. I replaced all 100 or so electrical outlets in my house and when I was doing this I was thinking of who initially installed these and in the future, perhaps in 30-40 years(or longer!) who will update my work.
As for yardwork I could easily hire a gardner but I enjoy being outside and physical activity and sunlight(vitamin D) are great for you. Plus you save money and have the satisfaction that you made your physical world a better more attractive space.
That being said a house that needs alot of upkeep as everything is extremely out of date would be(for me) very stressful and time consuming, so everything is relative.
For me it's about giving myself the permission to "give up" and let someone else handle it. Like you, I realized that being surrounded by broken things and incomplete projects was causing me a lot of constant low-level stress. As a person who prides themselves on being self-reliant, it's hard to pay for something that I know I could do it myself, even when the cost is insignificant. It helps to remind myself there are other things to optimize for, like saving time and preserving mental sanity.
I think that it all depends on where the motivation comes from. If it's just to save money, that's nice, but the need to do it disappears when you have enough to spare.
For me, I tend to want to fix things more the more my job is boring and I'm not able to work on new things or improve existing ones. I'll then take some satisfaction on actually being able to affect change, even if it is in my own environment. It can be a bit therapeutic.
I will, however, delegate some work when I don't have the tools or the means to do it efficiently. I had an alternator failure. I could replace it myself, I know how. But the car in question has it in a pretty difficult to access location. It is doable but would probably take me the whole day (if not more) with just a jack and stands. So I sent it to the mechanic.
And yes, if you are falling behind on your repairs or if you have to spend most of your free time to do it, it's not worth it, you need more hands. Also, if you actually don't have free time and you would use that time to earn more money.
By contrast, I take the position that I can fuck up just about anything myself for free, and if I'm paying somebody, they'd better do it right and do it right the first time.
I am super fortunate that my spouse likes to do the home projects as well. She is artistic, and I am mechanical. We solve problems together....when I don't know how to do something electrical or plumbing, and she has no idea at all, I can explain to her what the problem is, and either she gets it enough to point me in the right direction or in the process of explaining the problem I get the solution.
When she is agonizing over some color scheme (which in most cases doesn't interest me much) she will explain what she wants to achieve, and I can ask "stupid" questions that lead her to the answer...or in the odd case I make a suggestion and the lightbulb pops on.
It seems to me the mental health professionals do the same thing.
Together we have tackled installing over a 1000 sqft of hardwood flooring, removing popcorn ceilings (yuk), re-engineering built in cabinetry to accommodate an 82" TV, gutting and rebuilding 3 bathrooms, re-upholstering a livingroom suite that has no right angles (all curves), running a 90ft PEX pipe through a ceiling crawl space after receive a quote from a plumber for $8000 (took a day of our time).
The problem I have with "professionals" is that they all tell me a different story of what I need, and the "other guy" is always dead wrong.
I need a new roof and am getting quotes from multiple vendors....Just today I had calls with a couple of the vendors and they told me opposite stories of what "I need". One told me I need to replace all the wall flashings (which is very difficult and expensive given the siding must come off), and the other said don't touch it if its not leaking. Who to believe?
At the end of each project we are amazed at our accomplishment (note youtube helps). It certainly took 5x longer than a professional might take, but the end result was unique, we could change direction mid project, and in the end I know it is not crap work from some guy who left a leak in the wall. I believe the elation we achieved (and compliments from the neighbors), far exceeds the sweat equity that we put into the projects.
Handyman here. I think maybe you just explained a thing that's confused and confounded me for decades now. That innate difference between myself and my clients that I never really grasped: I can live with screwing something up myself because I can always go back and get it right the 2nd time. I absolutely cannot abide paying someone else good money to produce anything other than stellar results, and I loathe paying anyone to do anything I know I can do myself.
A good handyman is an incredible asset. I've had periods where I had one available, but they are very hard to find, and like most professions, hard to keep as someone else will often outbid you (or offer full time employement in these cases). I could keep one busy for weeks right now, if not longer...
I too lean towards DIY but have had to learn to make the hard decision on projects. "Will I realistically get this done in O(days|weeks)?" "Do we actually have any weekends free in the next ~month?" This usually leaves enough low-pressure jobs for me to do on my own, while maintaining domestic harmony by paying someone to do the rest.
Sometimes I feel the same way. Other times I get frustrated because I'm paying a lot of money for things I know I can do myself for much less - and because I'm spending that money there I don't even have it to buy the toys I want to use up that time paying someone else gave me.
There is a balance here and it is different for different people.