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Proton launches its own version of Google Docs

notresidenter
95 replies
5h23m

(Paying customer) I wish they would focus more on their existing product(s). There's a huge synergy between Calendar and Mail, but Drive, Pass, VPN, are useless (but the VPN is well-done). There's still no Caldav support or scheduling, and a lot of things are annoying in Mail, of course some of these are hard to solve with E2E, but at this point, their E2E claim is also half-baked and mostly for marketing, why not fix all of things?

What's the rationale behind releasing yet another half-baked product?

frenchman99
17 replies
2h44m

I'm even more convinced that me being a Fastmail customer is a good thing. Fastmail has been rock solid for years.

Their email, calendar and contacts solutions work well with iOS and android (using the DAVx app).

WebApps work flawlessly on Firefox. They have all sorts of customisation for spam filtering, catch all email addresses, etc.

They don't do all the things (vpn, passwords, drive, what have you). But what they do, they do very well.

amelius
10 replies
2h20m

How do you deal with spam in Fastmail?

I switched from GMail to Fastmail about a year ago, but ever since my Inbox is just filled with lots of spam. I tried writing email filters, and have about 50 now, but it is just not cutting it.

And also those promotional mails that I don't want to mark as "spam" but still shouldn't end up in my Inbox ... they drive me nuts.

Since I started using Fastmail, my main means of communication is shifting away from e-mail, which is sad.

twojacobtwo
4 replies
2h5m

Why dont you use their masked/alternate addresses. That was one of the primary selling points for me. Any questionable site/service gets its own address and is easily removed or filtered if spam starts showing up.

lancesells
1 replies
1h41m

That only works with something you actually signed up for. When your email gets leaked in a database and sold a thousand times you just start getting spam for all types of things.

mikeiz404
0 replies
1h8m

My solution was to start over with a new "root" email address and then keep it private. Having unique email addresses for each service (which then forwards to the "root" email address) is a bit of a pain but it does work for spam and, depending on what else you share with the service, privacy as well.

For better or worse if you want to reliably control who you receive email from you need to control who knows your email addresses and have the ability to disable/filter them.

amelius
1 replies
1h26m

I have those too. But the problem is I migrated away from GMail, where everything worked even with 1 email address, so now I'm stuck with that email address being used by all the people and companies that want to send me email.

(By the way, in GMail you can move emails to "promotional" and "social" folders, and then GMail automatically does that for you for future emails; this is quite handy, but after migrating to Fastmail this is leaving me with quite a mess in my Inbox, since Fastmail doesn't have this option).

oldmariner
0 replies
27m

You're not stuck; slowly change addresses with the different companies, people, etc. I did it over the course of a few years without hassle. If you spend $10/year for your own domain, then you can use a catchall, and if you ever decide to leave Fast ail for another provider, you don't have to change all the addreses again.

kid64
1 replies
1h5m

Here's one little-known tip I learned from Fastmail support some time ago: it's only possible to train the spam filter using their Web UI. If you're using a 3rd-party client, simply moving messages to your spam folder will have no effect on your filter quality. So to truly flag a message as spam, you must switch to your browser, login to FM, and handle it from there.

amelius
0 replies
24m

But I don't want to mark everything that should not grab my immediate attention as spam.

Some stuff like promotions or social messages deserve their own folder. Google did this right.

beart
1 replies
1h23m

My experience on fastmail doesn't align with yours. While spam has slightly increased over the years, I attribute that to just using my email more often. It's very rare that I get spam in my actual inbox. In fact, my experience is that the spam filter is a bit too strong and I actually have to check the spam folder now and then.

For the promotional emails, there are some general rules you can set up to catch a lot of it, such as https://pietrorea.com/2021/10/22/filter-emails-by-the-list-u.... However, the best way to manage them is to actually just unsubscribe to them as you receive them. If unsubscribe is ignored, then blacklist the sender.

For general spam, there's a setting under "privacy and security" to make the filtering more or less aggressive. My setting is on "standard" and I haven't had any problems, but you could try adjusting that.

amelius
0 replies
22m

OK, I will try that.

But I still think migrating away from GMail should be less painful.

warp
0 replies
1h18m

I'm using the Hey approach in Fastmail, so my main folders are Inbox and Screener, with a filter like this:

Matches NOT fromin:contacts -> Move to Screener

I'll check the Screener less frequently, and whenever I feel like it I'll take a message from it and use Actions -> Add rule from message.. and send messages from that sender to a Newsletter folder.

I still get lots of crap in the Screener, but then again I don't really use e-mail to communicate with humans, so in a sense all e-mail is automated nonsense from systems where I have some kind of user account.

stavros
0 replies
2h24m

I'll second this, I've had absolutely zero issues with Fastmail over many years. It always just works, and is super fast.

omneity
0 replies
1h4m

(another happy paying customer of Fastmail here)

I am pleasantly surprised that Fastmail has no AI cruft in it especially that Fastmail is founded by one of the godfathers of modern AI, Jeremy Howard.

ndr
0 replies
1h57m

I love the service but hate their android app. It fails to load any content when offline. Absolutely maddening when you need to look up anything, like gig tickets, in a low reception area.

lloeki
0 replies
2h25m

android (using the DAVx app)

It borderlines on the insulting that Google refuses to support CardDAV and CalDAV OOTB.

fhd2
0 replies
2h22m

Absolutely, very happy Fastmail customer here! My only qualm is that their apps could be better at multi account (switching is too much of a hassle), but that's the only problem I ever had, and I work around it by using different mail/calendar clients.

If you just have a single account with them though, their app is quite excellent and has everything (mail, calendar, notes), no need to get multiple apps and stuff like DAVx unless you want to.

triceratops
9 replies
3h52m

The VPN is "well-done" but "useless"?

ffsm8
6 replies
3h44m

VPN are pointless for the vast majority of people.

You're essentially just shifting the person you're trusting from your ISP to proton.

Downloading copyrighted media is pretty much the only usecase I can think of for such a service, and most people don't do that.

The only other usecase would be to conceal your traffic on a public wifi, but you'd be better served just going through your home connection at that point. Pretty much all decent routers provide you with dyndns+VPN services builtin

sitkack
1 replies
3h38m

That is like your opinion, man.

VPNs are critical for getting around shenanigans when working out in the world. Especially from sketchy last miles.

ffsm8
0 replies
3h23m

You're right, I forgot geo blocking entirely as all services I've used it on added mitigations over the years.

The last time I've successfully used a VPN for that was around 2015, but there might be services around (which I just dont use) that can still be unlocked by changing the IP, so that'd be a valid usecase for a few people

digging
0 replies
3h7m

Pretty much all decent routers provide you with dyndns+VPN services builtin

Most people don't know how to use that or that it even exists. Hell, I didn't know it existed until right now and I'm decently tech savvy.

You're essentially just shifting the person you're trusting from your ISP to proton.

Yes absolutely, this is the reason I use a VPN. I have negative trust of every ISP in the USA. They will harvest and sell your browsing history to anyone who will buy it. I have no doubt about that. Some VPN providers probably won't.

balls187
0 replies
3h39m

Avoid region restrictions are the biggest usecase. A number of my friends use VPNs exclusively for this purpose, geberally because they are big sports fans.

WithinReason
0 replies
2h48m

In the UK your ISP is obligated to log all your DNS queries and make it accessible to a large number of government agencies without a warrant. Your VPN provider makes money from not being able to provide that data, many times proven in court. They are not at all comparable.

Multiplayer
0 replies
2h24m

Apparently you have never tried to access an "adult service" from Louisiana. :)

notresidenter
0 replies
2h34m

It's a great product, but I don't need it from them. I bought a protonmail subscription, not a Proton subscription.

attendant3446
0 replies
3h28m

I actually think it's their best (in-house) product (and SimpleLogin from the acquired products).

mzajc
9 replies
4h21m

Edit: they have since added support for this, my bad --- I am still bummed that ProtonMail doesn't support automatic forwarding. Their rationale is that E2EE makes this impossible, but most of my incoming mail is unencrypted anyway, and I could decrypt the rest myself with Thunderbird and GPG. Lack of automatic forwarding support makes it harder to switch mail providers, on the other hand.

cedws
5 replies
4h16m

It’s misleading marketing. They sell their email service as “E2EE”, even though the majority of emails flowing through their system are in fact NOT end to end encrypted, they’re visible to Proton in plaintext upon receipt. This is a fundamental limitation of email protocols. You only get E2EE by using PGP at both ends.

mikegreenberg
2 replies
4h8m

This is a matter of semantics... anyone who actually cares about E2EE probably understands the nature of email being cleartext over the wire and that Proton can't control what is outside of their control. Maybe inaccurate but I doubt they are misleading (in the sense that they are hoping to fool people into thinking their email is encrypted over the wire).

Marketing copy would not likely care to include "E2EE" .... "at the point that Protonmail recieves your message" on their frontpage.

Further, this is explain quite clearly on their FAQ: https://proton.me/support/proton-mail-encryption-explained

</pearlclutching>

codetrotter
1 replies
2h47m

I’m gonna start selling sugar-free soda and when people point out that there is sugar in the soda I’ll explain to them that the sugar was added to the mixture by a different supplier before the mixture arrived at my factory.

My factory does not add any sugar to the soda. Therefore it’s clearly fair to market it as sugar-free!

koziserek
0 replies
1h1m

"...No sugars added!"

mzajc
0 replies
4h12m

Indeed, and as far as I understand, even PGP-encrypted mail can be automatically forwarded and viewed easily, provided I have the correct PGP key installed in my client.

SahAssar
0 replies
2h54m

You only get E2EE by using PGP at both ends.

That's true for all email though, right? What is Protons value add?

bartbutler
2 replies
4h12m

We do support automatic forwarding, have since last fall.

mzajc
1 replies
4h6m

Thanks for letting me know. Seems like it's a paid feature, however, and I'd rather not pay a monthly subscription for a service I no longer want to use - that was the primary reason I needed automatic forwarding anyway.

But I do distinctly recall that Proton has said the feature isn't possible to implement due to E2EE when this question was brought up. What has changed?

tombert
8 replies
3h41m

If this is a Proton grievance panel, I really wish they'd optimize their web app, at least with Firefox. If I leave the Protonmail tab open, the amount of CPU and RAM usage for Firefox just spikes up like crazy, and it shoots back down once I close that tab.

I can get around this with the ProtonMail Bridge and using Mutt, which works fine and makes me feel cool, but the web app is considerably more convenient.

digging
4 replies
3h1m

Both their web app and their android app are extraordinarily sluggish, unfortunately. And I currently am forced to use the web app in a PWA on my phone because the Android app has a current bug where the contents of emails won't load. In other words it's 100% useless, and I uninstalled. By the PWA is agonizing to use, so I've been missing emails lately. For a service to keep getting worse over the years when I want to like it is difficult to swallow, but every day I'm a little closer to canceling my subscription.

tombert
1 replies
2h49m

Don't get me started on the fucking Android app.

When I would type and send an email too fast, it would only send the first half or so. I would have to type out the email, wait about 30 seconds, then send it. Presumably it had to fully save some draft before sending it, but it came off as extremely amateurish. Not to mention that it just utterly killed my battery life.

The iOS app is fine, and since I'm on iPhone again I'm still on Proton, but I haven't completely lost the bitter taste in my mouth over the Android version.

boudin
0 replies
1h37m

They replaced the android app recently. I haven't experienced this bug with the new one.

boudin
1 replies
1h33m

With the previous android app, not the one they just launched last month, i had a similar issue (it would take ages to load an email), clearing the cache in the settings had solved it though.

digging
0 replies
53m

Unfortunately this is an issue with the new one. It doesn't just take a long time, it never loads, and can't be fixed with a cache clear or reinstall.

dinglestepup
2 replies
2h46m

Hm, I have Proton Mail in a pinned tab in FF (Mac) - no issues at all. The only time I re-open it is when FF restarts after an update (~once a month).

tombert
1 replies
2h29m

I feel like this is a somewhat recent change, so I don't know what happened on my computer or within Protonmail; I have an Intel Macbook Pro, and it really seems to slow everything down. Maybe I screwed up a setting but as I said everything else seems to work fine and when I use the Protonmail Bridge it works fine.

dinglestepup
0 replies
48m

Yes, could potentially be related to a different CPU architecture, but could also be something else eg RAM capacity (I have 64GB) or Proton Mail settings (do you have offline enabled? I don't).

webkike
7 replies
5h9m

The connection is encryption, and having all of these services paid for and therefore have better support. I really like protonpass so I was happy to see that I already pay for it

efitz
6 replies
4h19m

Paying customer for many years.

I like Proton Pass and switched to it about a month ago from 1Password. It's not quite there yet; I'm thinking of switching back. There are still some sharp edges like lack of support for credit cards, addresses, etc.

cquintana92
3 replies
3h26m

Proton Pass supports Credit Cards as a paid feature!

szszrk
2 replies
3h13m

I'm curious why it's important? Do you pass on card details manually that often?

cquintana92
1 replies
2h19m

Autofilling when buying online, having the details handy/ready to be copied if autofill is not an option, keeping track of them in a single place while being encrypted together with other personal info... To me the benefits are many!

(Disclaimer: Work in Proton Pass)

szszrk
0 replies
45m

Thats cool but also so unusual for me. You just don't add card details at all here, and if you do, you just trust that service and save it permanently. If someone is actual heavy card user, he will have temporary/shortlived cards anyway.

tamimio
0 replies
2h36m

Keepassxc, or bitwarden, you can run your own instance too.

digging
0 replies
3h5m

Bitwarden is pretty great.

jamil7
6 replies
3h29m

Also a paying customer, I'd like it if they would email an invoice every month instead of me needing to go login to the web UI and dig for it when I do my monthly tax reporting.

KingOfCoders
5 replies
3h21m

If this is invoice griefing group, please

   1. Everyone make invoices PDF
   2. Send them out every month
   3. If I need to log in, make them easy to find on the first page
   4. Name them <company>-<invoice>-<date>-<number>-<amount>.pdf
Thanks!

dx034
1 replies
1h59m

My biggest issue with Backblaze B2. It’s so much effort to get my invoice each month. I don’t get why companies send out billing emails but don’t just attach the invoice or insert a link directly to the invoice.

KingOfCoders
0 replies
57m

Same, also Backblaze customer :-)

calvinmorrison
1 replies
2h52m

a new document has arrived to your document portal.

KingOfCoders
0 replies
56m

This is a startup I wanted to found 10 years ago when writing an inhouse invoice PDF (+ thumbnails etc.) plattform

jamil7
0 replies
3h16m

I know right, especially number 4, more often than not I get emailed basically <UUID>.pdf.

domh
5 replies
5h4m

CalDAV and CardDAV support missing is the only reason I still have a google account. I understand it's "tough" with e2ee but adding support to the bridge would be perfectly sufficient, then at least I could use local Calendar/Contact apps.

InsideOutSanta
2 replies
3h42m

It's pretty easy to self-host CalDAV and CardDAV. I went with Baïkal, it took me maybe 15 minutes to install on a server, it's supported by all of the calendar tools I use, and it's worked perfectly fine for a few months now. So now I'm completely free of Google.

Maybe not for everyone, but a way more feasible option than most people seem to realize.

domh
0 replies
3m

Yeah I've investigated it a couple of times but never pulled the trigger with self-hosting. Could run it on my rpi and access via Tailscale, but seems like something that should be provided by the email provider that I pay money for. They also do have Contacts and Calendar products, but they're completely self-contained and apparently can only be used by protonmail which is mostly pointless.

acidburnNSA
0 replies
2h39m

Agreed! I used radicale for the same purpose. Very easy installation given I already had a VPS.

https://radicale.org

attendant3446
0 replies
3h31m

What about mobile devices? There is no bridge and you have to rely on official apps, which is the biggest drawback for me.

aarmenaa
0 replies
3h44m

I've been considering switching from Fastmail to Proton for Mail/Calendar/Contacts, but I didn't realize their bridge didn't do CalDAV or CardDAV. Also, apparently the bridge is desktop-only -- no mobile? That's kind of a deal breaker.

westpfelia
2 replies
2h33m

I can see it as trying to compete with say a google in all competencies.

So hopefully once they have tool parity with Gsuite they would buckle down and work on features of each application?

red-iron-pine
0 replies
29m

certainly not in all competencies, but there is definintely a demand for O365 or GSuite that's not going to actively datamine the hell out of you.

This isn't even a "im a paranoid l33t hacker", just that I don't want someone capturing 100% of every document and communication in my business.

like holy shit, we're gonna let MS hookup their AI to monitor everything all the time? cuz that's what my org is doing with Copilot...

al_borland
0 replies
2h15m

They need to keep in mind that Google spend decades getting to where they are with the current toolset. Proton shouldn't be expected to replicate it in a couple years.

I'm sure people are asking for this stuff, but I hope it is sustainable. I'm a paying customer and only use the email today. With the pace of these releases, I'm not comfortable investing in these new tools, because I'm not sure how long they'll be around. I'm starting to question the email choice, since I'm worried they are spreading themselves too thin. I'm not sure what their financial situation is like, but I hope this isn't all from a bunch of funding or debt they will need to answer for at some point.

KeyBoardG
2 replies
4h58m

It is interesting to watch them try to grow so quickly. At some point they'll need to turn more profit to hold all this scale up. We'll see if they can stick to the privacy claims or start to sell out.

jacooper
0 replies
4h26m

They are already profitable without any VC investments.

InsideOutSanta
0 replies
3h40m

They just switched to a non-profit system of governance.

tailspin2019
1 replies
4h18m

Also a paying customer. I completely agree. They keep doing this, widening their scope constantly while every new product launched seems to get less ongoing attention than the last one.

jamil7
0 replies
3h13m

Probably gunning for enterprise contracts in which they need an answer to every service and product.

swatcoder
1 replies
2h32m

As soon as somebody decides that a brand's future requires adding more top-level features rather than specializing in top-of-class delivery of core features, product design becomes an endless treadmill (death spiral?) of adding "yet another half-baked product"

That's not to say that "one thing well" products are sure to be viable, and the "bullet point maximizers" that dominate product design for the last 10-15 years may know best, but this is what it looks like once they run the show either way.

viccis
0 replies
1h47m

This happened so bad with Wyze. They had a really great little camera for a very brief time. Then I turn around and they're just a white box product reseller, with everything from vacuums to earbuds. Meanwhile, their camera service is a shadow of its former self.

ilrwbwrkhv
1 replies
5h16m

PMs get promoted when doing the shiny new thing instead of improving the dull old thing.

lagniappe
0 replies
5h11m

What a world we live in when even the agencies have to deal with PMs

vishnugupta
0 replies
3h25m

What's the rationale behind releasing yet another half-baked product?

New product often means new segment of customers they can go after. Whereas refining existing ones will help reduce the churn.

Their sales/marketing pitch gets that much better.

treprinum
0 replies
2h29m

What irritates me is that their ProtonMail iOS client always sends a notification when I log into ProtonMail from my laptop and I can't turn that notification off without turning off all notifications. I don't want to be spammed by yet another useless security-freak notification.

tossandthrow
0 replies
3h49m

Yep.

In the end I switched away from proton due to their negligence on this core product suite.

stockhorn
0 replies
2h13m

(Paying customer) Yes! I cant believe I still cant share a folder with another account on proton drive (apart from read-only sharing via link), but now instead they add .....

rapnie
0 replies
5h3m

This. Also a paying customer. My Android mail app is definitely not fully baked. At times it drains my battery trying unsuccessfully to fetch notifications. Other times it fetches a ton of notifications I had already seen.

Proton is on a good path in many ways, but these rapid launches of new apps will kill the company if they don't do it well.

philwelch
0 replies
1h52m

On the one hand I can agree with this—I would love them to focus on refining the current suite of Proton apps.

On the other hand, Google’s ability to monitor the contents of Google Docs and engage in censorship is extremely concerning and Proton seems well-placed to provide an alternative.

mrmetanoia
0 replies
2h47m

Agreed, happy paying customer but would rather see them investing in improving Drive. Seems like they're trying to get more enterprise-y which sucks.

maximinus_thrax
0 replies
2h11m

What's the rationale behind releasing yet another half-baked product?

Growth. I'm also a (happy) customer, I've been using their products for years and my personal impression is that they're trying to catch up and build a full productivity suite as fast as possible.

juandemarco
0 replies
5h6m

Missing Caldav support is really painful. I've had to spin up my own Caldav container (Radicale) and leave Proton Calendar behind, but I'm still unable to send calendar event notifications from any calendar app on mobile, only from thunderbird.

jacooper
0 replies
4h27m

They can't add direct caldav support because it's e2ee, they should add a caldav bridge to their mail bridge, they also should work on contact sync.

I agree that drive is underpowered, they still don't have a syncing client on Linux, and their android/iOS client is quite limited and the photo integration is really half baked. However Pass is really great, it has better UI/UX compared to Bitwarden.

drpossum
0 replies
1h56m

I use pass for all my TOTP and keep my passwords separate with KeepassXC. It works really well.

I agree and wish for Calendar to use much better integration

denysvitali
0 replies
2h5m

I love Proton Mail, but their mailbox search on Android is just awful.

McDyver
0 replies
2h27m

Talking of half-baked, one thing I find really frustrating is that on the mobile app you can't even see the mail headers of a message. Absurd

CivBase
0 replies
3h28m

What's the rationale behind releasing yet another half-baked product?

I suspect they're attempting to build up an attractive package for business customers, competing with the likes of O365 and G-Suite. There's probably a lot more money in that than in personal email hosting.

0x1ch
0 replies
4h7m

I can't even search on the mobile app for android... I could about two years ago until they decided to push out half baked rewrites or something.

FredPret
12 replies
4h59m

Meanwhile, the iPhone app is still so unreliable, I wouldn't sign up for Protonmail again today if I wasn't already in it.

Pity, because on desktop - and, when it works, on mobile, it works great. I really like the company.

Switching email addresses has so much friction - maybe I should keep a notebook of everyone who has my address so I can let them know of my new address.

yett
6 replies
4h54m

Why not buy a custom domain? You could then easily switch between providers.

tr3ntg
4 replies
4h50m

Adding this to "simple solutions I've never considered but wow, I should"

Seriously, I've had this same thought after switching to HEY getting pretty frustrated with it. Considered other options, but worried that I'd just repeat the process. However, if I use a custom domain next time around, this whole problem goes away. Yay

pmarreck
0 replies
4h0m

I'm trying to make HEY work as well. Can we start a side discussion about it? I was initially impressed but now it feels like I have a part time job manually flagging things that should have been seen as spam right away

piva00
0 replies
4h36m

I switched to using my own domain for important emails some 10 years ago, after a friend got his Google Account taken over while on a month long hike without internet. When he got back his account had been banned because they used it for click fraud, no way to contact Google to get it reinstated, he lost access to his GMail, with it all email history since 2004, logins to accounts tied to it, etc.

I don't want ever to go through this nightmare.

packetlost
0 replies
4h41m

People actually paid for HEY? I tried out the closed beta for a bit and once they started asking for $100/year I very quickly decided it wasn't worth that.

doubled112
0 replies
4h12m

It doesn't help you with existing emails, but you don't have to worry about receiving new ones.

FredPret
0 replies
4h41m

I was thinking parent commenter might be stuck with a widely-dispersed Protonmail address.

Your solution is the one to go for though.

inhumantsar
2 replies
4h11m

iPhone app is so unreliable

that's interesting. iirc the iPhone app got most of their attention early on, so I figured it would have been solid experience.

the early android app was so awful that they rewrote it. the rewrite is much better but it still has its issues.

one of the most painful issues I encountered: I'd reply to an email, hit send. then when my reply showed up in the thread, it would be incomplete. at first I thought it was truncating but it turned out to be the last draft that it auto saved before I hit send. I very nearly cancelled my subscription over that one.

the web and desktop (which is an electron/tauri/whatever app) does work great.

a bit off topic for this thread but sieve filtering is amazing. it makes email automation a breeze.

I have it set up so that when an email comes in from a contact, it applies the label that contact has to the email. then any email with certain labels gets (or doesn't) an expiration date. eg: webstore notifications, eg for shipments, are deleted in 30d while notifications about upcoming sales or product announcements are deleted in 3d.

likewise GitHub notifications for my repos get 7d expirations and go to my inbox while all others get 3d expirations and never hit the inbox.

warkdarrior
1 replies
4h1m

Isn't Sieve filtering done server-side? How does it work with E2EE?

inhumantsar
0 replies
3h49m

it's only able to operate on header information, which isn't encrypted while in transit

lucasyvas
0 replies
4h56m

Which app? They all work fine for what I expect them to do.

buzzy_hacker
0 replies
3h13m

I’ve used the iPhone app daily for almost 10 years at this point and it is reliable for me. What problems do you have?

clapsclaps
9 replies
4h31m

This is good news considering that it's amazing that in 2024 we still don't have any decent alternative to the Google Docs suite that is not Microsoft.

In our small company we tried a self hosted Nextcloud instance and we ended up moving away from that after years of pain. Now we are in HedgeDoc, that is neither ideal because of its lack of central way to manage files collectively, etc. So, I guess good news.

sundarurfriend
3 replies
3h57m

Is Zoho another decent alternative? I hear a good amount of praise for it here, but don't know which product(s) people are referring to and what they're good at.

solardev
2 replies
3h2m

I used Zoho when I was younger and trying out new technologies was still fun. Their mail, docs, CRM, contacts programs were all pretty good, and honestly technologically pretty impressive as far as user-friendly SaaSes go. It's too bad they never got popular in the West (it's an Indian company).

In everyday life as an adult, they just don't have the mindshare that the big clouds have. I default to Google Workspace for everything (or whatever it's called now) because that's what everyone else in my social circle use and what most employers use, and being able to seamlessly share stuff with other Google users is much lower friction than trying to get them to sign up (much less pay for) yet another similar service. The network effect is more important than any minor difference in technical merit...

brightball
1 replies
1h40m

Yea, I tried going all in on Proton with my consulting work.

A client who was using Google scheduled a meeting that I was invited too and I put it on my calendar. Then somebody had to move the meeting but didn’t click the option to send an update when they did.

Everyone’s Google calendars updated. My Proton didn’t because they didn’t send the update. Everybody else was on time and I wasn’t, making a terrible impression.

In investigating, I found that my Google calendar that had been setup prior to the Proton move also had the update even though it wasn’t on their domain.

That is the network effect in action.

solardev
0 replies
1h35m

Yeah, calendar invites are a big one. But also the ease of being able to manage sharing via Drive (and be automatically alerted when a Google account owner can't access it), co-edit in Docs (and tagging in comments there), being able to use it as SSO in many places, and having all of that synced to your browser and managed by your Workspace admin. It's the ecosystem that's extremely valuable, not necessarily any individual app.

westpfelia
0 replies
2h29m

This is how I see it. People arent thrilled that they aren't as feature rich in other products (cal/mail) but I see it as trying to compete with the whole of Gsuite. And hopefully the more niche features that a hyper technical hackernews reader might want will come then.

thecleaner
0 replies
3h57m

Wonder why you don't use Google Docs if they do the job ?

solardev
0 replies
3h8m

Zoho?

presbyterian
0 replies
3h15m

Apple Pages as well. It has a web-based cloud version, and it's free. I haven't used it enough to speak on the quality, though.

bigstrat2003
0 replies
2h45m

Google Docs isn't even good, though? Give me MS Office or even LibreOffice running on the desktop any day of the week. I hate when I work at a place that makes use of Google's shitty imitation.

demosthanos
5 replies
3h54m

Daily reminder that Proton is a company that operates legally in jurisdictions that have police forces and laws. If you're a dissident in one of those countries you'll definitely need something else (or a few layers on top of Proton to protect your real IP), but it's weird to see people turning this into a moral problem with Proton.

rty32
4 replies
3h16m

Sure, but maybe don't advertise "protecting free speech" as part of their "impact", because it only goes so far.

https://proton.me/about/impact

And you don't even need to be a dissident in "one of those countries". As long as Europol's arm (or some other organization that Swiss is part of) can reach you, you are not covered, as in https://restoreprivacy.com/protonmail-logs-users/

I don't have an opinion on whether this is ok or not (protecting dissidents and protecting "real" criminals), I am just sick of false advertising.

It is because of these reasons I chose Fastmail over Proton when I was looking for an alternative. The E2EE itself is almost bogus, and I would rather look for othet features that I need.

johnkizer
0 replies
1h7m

I agree that false advertising would upset me...what on that Proton "impact" page is actually false, though?

And in what way would FastMail not be impacted by analogous events? https://www.itnews.com.au/news/fastmail-loses-customers-face...

I do agree that the value of email encryption for 99% of users is overstated, given the fundamental nature of email communications to begin with.

demosthanos
0 replies
1h57m

There's a great blog post that identifies your position as the Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics [0]:

The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics says that when you observe or interact with a problem in any way, you can be blamed for it. At the very least, you are to blame for not doing more. Even if you don’t make the problem worse, even if you make it slightly better, the ethical burden of the problem falls on you as soon as you observe it. In particular, if you interact with a problem and benefit from it, you are a complete monster. I don’t subscribe to this school of thought, but it seems pretty popular.

Proton is guilty because they attempt to protect free speech and aren't able to do so completely. Fastmail is not guilty because they don't do anything more to protect free speech than any other provider.

Do you see the problem?

[0] https://gwern.net/doc/philosophy/ethics/2015-06-24-jai-theco...

deely3
0 replies
2h24m

Fastmail with servers in USA.. You sure it is more protected than Switzerland?

buzzy_hacker
0 replies
3h9m

When I sign up for a service, I don’t expect them to break the law on my behalf, regardless of their advertising.

mindracer
1 replies
3h57m

They’re not outside the law, if the police come knocking with a legal request they have to provide data\details they have. What would you have them do?

fulafel
0 replies
3h20m

In this specific case of a recovery email address, maybe there is something that could be done so that they wouldn't hold the email address itself. At least 2 options come to mind.

deely3
0 replies
2h33m

Daily reminder thats actually Apple.

From article:

The core of the controversy stems from Proton Mail providing the Spanish police with the recovery email address associated with the Proton Mail account.

Upon receiving the recovery email from Proton Mail, Spanish authorities further requested Apple to provide additional details linked to that email, leading to the identification of the individual.
zeusly
8 replies
5h32m

How good is the proton ecosystem if I have multiple mail addresses and calendars?

Say I have hello@example.com and hello@example.net, can I use one unified inbox, and can I use both addresses to send and receive calendar invites?

Moreover, how easy is it to combine my calendars with my work calendar?

I heard it's also not possible to sync contacts with iOS, is that true?

pshirshov
5 replies
5h12m

fastmail would be lot better.

I migrated from paid proton to fastmail years ago and still happy.

fullspectrumdev
1 replies
4h48m

I ended up switching to Fastmail after it being recommended here ages back, and it’s been fantastic.

I’ve also used Google Workspace, O365 or whatever MS calls it this week, and Proton as well as self hosting mail in the past.

input_sh
0 replies
2h27m

I'm honestly shocked by how long I've been using Fastmail without having a single complaint to talk about.

Usually after using a tool for an extended period of time, there's gonna be some annoyance that you just have to learn to deal with. After five or so years of me using Fastmail, I can't think of a single thing that actually bothers me.

buzzy_hacker
1 replies
3h11m

I pay for both, use them for different things, but to be clear, fastmail does not have the encryption features that ProtonMail does. Not a direct replacement if you’re interested in the privacy aspects.

input_sh
0 replies
2h24m

What encryption features? GPG works with any email provider.

jddj
0 replies
4h57m

Any specific improvements?

barron35
0 replies
5h16m

It's great for multiple mail addresses. I get mail from multiple domains all in my ProtonMail inbox. Very easy to send from multiple addresses as well.

You can also turn on catch all addresses where you'll get all mail sent to anything @yourdomain.com. Very handy to create unique emails for sites I don't want to have my emails I actually use with contacts.

I can't really comment on multiple calendars. I haven't experimented much with that and get all my invites sent to one address.

ajb
0 replies
4h36m

Don't know about calendars. They are one of the better ones for multiple address - there's a limit on the number of a) domains) and b) email addresses you can reply from (but no limit on the number you receive from, with a catch-all).

I think their different plans allow different numbers.

The one what doesn't have any limits other than bandwidth is migadu. But they don't support second fact properly, last I looked.

meibo
6 replies
5h27m

They are falling into the hole of adding products on top of products, while their core apps are decaying.

Please. Fix. The. Android app! It's unusable. I feel like I beg for them to do this in every yearly survey, and then they change the design a little bit, it loses a few features and gets some new ones, while missing basic stuff like unmarking an email as spam. This wouldn't be a problem if it was possible to use K9 or AquaMail with Proton, but that's obviously not an option.

sofixa
3 replies
4h15m

They are falling into the hole of adding products on top of products, while their core apps are decaying.

It's not a hole, it's only natural. It's easier to add new products than it is to improve existing ones (tech debt), and new products can bring in new customers, make existing customers happier, etc. which is easier to see and justify.

That being said, the Android app has some weird gaps (like can't snooze an email) that probably won't take long to fix.

sundarurfriend
1 replies
3h55m

new products can bring in new customers, make existing customers happier

Doesn't seem to be much of the latter in this thread (but then again, this is HN...)

sofixa
0 replies
3h44m

Doesn't seem to be much of the latter in this thread (but then again, this is HN...)

Insert famous "Dropbox is just FTP, who would pay for it" comment here :)

meibo
0 replies
4h9m

that probably won't take long to fix.

That's what I told myself about the spam thing I mentioned when they released the redesign, and it's still not possible, at least on the version I'm using at the moment.

I'm sure there's a lot of background here and corporate dynamics we're not aware of, it just doesn't feel great as a paying customer. The apps have never really been fully adequate.

FredPret
0 replies
4h55m

I first thought you might be able to get Proton Bridge installed on Android and then link that to the mail app you like, but turns out that's desktop-only.

There is a ridiculous workaround involving a home server with Bridge and Wireguard on it: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/15nj8f7/comment...

nusl
4 replies
5h5m

I've evaluated Proton multiple times over the years as a replacement for my existing solution, though each time it feels a bit off. I don't quite know why, but there's too much going on and, from what I understand, much of it is still half-baked or too inconvenient to use.

InsideOutSanta
1 replies
3h33m

"much of it is still half-baked"

Imo, it's not. It's more like 80% baked. More than good enough for daily use, but not on the level of polish or quality of any of the market leaders. Proton Drive is not as nice and convenient as Dropbox, Proton Mail is not as nice and convenient Gmail, Proton Pass is not as nice and convenient as 1Password, and so on.

But each of their offerings are good enough to get the job done, the price is fair, and you get the added privacy.

poetril
0 replies
2h20m

This is exactly why I like it. I understand it won't be for everyone, but it does everything I need for daily use. Mainly mail + calendar, plus drive for some occasional file sharing/upload. The VPN works fine for what I need, and I still use a separate password manager.

pixxel
0 replies
4h54m

it feels a bit off. I don't quite know why

Maybe, subconsciously, you’ve learnt not to put all your eggs in one corporate basket.

Vaslo
0 replies
1h25m

It’s years and billions behind Google. It’s a lot of work to catch up. I’ve been really happy with them and it’s great having my email domains through them

coldpie
3 replies
5h9m

Sorry. I intentionally chose an internal codename that was ambiguous, generic, and hard to Google, just in case the name leaked before we were ready to go public. It was never supposed to be the public name, it was just another part of the Steam Play umbrella. But, in the end I guess it stuck. Oh well!

pmarreck
1 replies
3h54m

I just want to thank you for this awesome project you started that has largely enabled me to use Linux as a main desktop.

I've long felt that gaming's "home OS" should be Linux (or at least an open-source OS... in my case, big fan of NixOS, even with its new-user warts). Especially when you look at the long term (running older games to show your kids, etc). I'm glad Gabe felt this way too (for a long time now, it seems). Microsoft is too capricious an overlord for what is essentially almost all of gaming, I think.

Now if only there was something like proton for macOS that enabled windows API gaming on M1/2/3/4 Macs... (I know Apple has some sort of half-baked-seeming "game porting toolkit" that I believe might make use of it, but just something native to Steam on Mac would be sweeeeet)

cyberpunk
0 replies
3h25m

Do you mean… codeweavers crossover?

thelopa
0 replies
57m

I’ve been running Linux for ~20 years. Proton is, without a doubt, a huge leap forward for the ecosystem. I stopped dual booting Windows for games ~5 years ago and haven’t looked back. It’s positively wild to me that native Linux builds for games are often harder to get working than just using proton and the game’s windows build.

ajb
4 replies
4h40m

I always feel conflicted by these kind of announcements, because for me there is significant value in spreading my dependencies across different companies, to reduce risk. I think Proton are great, I would like them to succeed - but I'm not sure I want to put all my eggs in their basket.

ivan_gammel
2 replies
4h13m

This specific case seems reasonable. Mail implies Drive (you want to keep large attachments somewhere), both imply Docs (you want to preview those docs somewhere and maybe add some edits).

If you want to diversify, Pass may be a good candidate for not using it.

michaelmior
1 replies
4h8m

both imply Docs

You can certainly implement an attachment viewer without having a full fledged document editor.

ivan_gammel
0 replies
2h8m

Opening documents in read-only mode is MVP, but users often want feature parity. This topic is popular on Proton’s uservoice.

iamkonstantin
0 replies
3h49m

Then you should welcome the announcement as it offers yet another alternative for hosting docs. I don't think Proton implies that you must use the entire bundle of services — you could always mix and match them with other providers (or self-host, for the ultimate freedom).

FlamingMoe
4 replies
4h35m

There are many Google Docs alternatives, including some great open source options such as HedgeDoc and Outline.

What is missing a great Excel or Sheets alternative. I wanted to break my business out of the Google Workspace ecosystem earlier this year, but the lack of a good spreadsheets alternative was one of the main things holding me back.

jMyles
2 replies
4h33m

cryptpad?

jszymborski
0 replies
4h2m

Honestly, I wish Proton would have just funded cryptpad and hosted a paid instance instead.

blackeyeblitzar
0 replies
3h19m

Hard to call it “great”. To me it feels awkward to use.

Brechreiz
0 replies
4h32m

great Excel or Sheets alternative

cryptpad.fr

prophesi
3 replies
3h46m

I see that they claim all of their apps and libraries are open source[0]. But they only link to the OpenPGP libraries they're using. Is this actually open source? Following the "Open Source" footer link[1], here they only link to the ProtonMail Github account with nothing mentioning ProtonDrive.

And if it is actually open source, I'd love to see a comparison to CryptPad[2]

which is why we’ve made all our apps and encryption libraries open source

[0] https://proton.me/drive/security

[1] https://proton.me/community/open-source

[2] https://cryptpad.org/

winter_blue
1 replies
1h22m

Oh wow. Wouldn't this make it easy for someone to just use/fork the code here to create a competitor?

lazyc97
0 replies
1h14m

Only the clients source code are available, so we know what data is encrypted before sending to server. The server side is closed source.

dmw_ng
3 replies
4h41m

Seems like a massive distraction from their offering for a small company, wonder why they didn't consider something like tight integration with OnlyOffice or similar. Setting out to build a new office suite feels about as sensible as building a new web browser from scratch. Except at least with a browser, you have open specs helping you through most of the endless supply of compatibility problems.

jacooper
1 replies
4h40m

They can't, all proton products are end to end encrypted, typical solutions like onlyoffice won't work.

Ylpertnodi
0 replies
3h21m

For anyone: E2e does not mean 'private'.

InsideOutSanta
0 replies
3h37m

I don't think they built this from scratch, they acquired a company that did something similar (Standard Notes) and are using their technology to build this.

crazygringo
3 replies
3h9m

Proton seems to be suggesting that this is somehow more secure than Google Docs [1].

But Google Docs/Workspace already supports what they call "client-side encryption" [2] if you want to pay for it and enable it. Docs never sees your actual data.

How is this any different?

Trying to go up against MS Office and Google Docs/Workspace sounds like an unbelievably difficult, huge, and therefore risky proposition -- akin to writing your own browser from scratch and trying to compete with Chrome, Edge, and Safari. Not really sure this is a wise business move for Proton.

[1] https://proton.me/blog/docs-proton-drive

[2] https://support.google.com/a/answer/10741897?hl=en

MetaWhirledPeas
2 replies
3h1m

Trying to go up against MS Office and Google Docs/Workspace sounds like an unbelievably difficult, huge, and therefore risky proposition

My guess is that Proton sees that it appeals to individuals wanting an alternative to Google and Microsoft's online services. Email alone is not enough to cut the umbilical, so Proton is adding more and more coverage.

crazygringo
1 replies
2h23m

Ah got it -- if this is aimed at individuals not businesses then it makes more sense.

Also because individuals tend to mostly use only Google Docs, much less Sheets and almost no Slides -- so the Docs clone by itself would be sufficient.

brnt
0 replies
54m

Ever since Google Docs launched, it has been the most valuable thing about having an account. Document sharing and central management are a hard thing that Google Docs solves realy well.

I'll be very glad to try this out.

benreesman
2 replies
5h21m

I’ve been a paid Proton user for about a year now and I can’t recommend it highly enough. They’re seriously hard core about security and privacy and the usability is easily a match for any comparable offering.

When Google CAPTCHAs me on every single query from a known reputable exit node, yeah, I want that security.

tylervigen
0 replies
2h15m

Interesting take. I was a paying personal customer who switched away from ProtonMail. I appreciate it for what it is, but ultimately for me it was just way too slow. The website is incredibly sluggish, and the mobile app is worse. I spent a good 5-10 seconds waiting on a loading screen everything I wanted to check my email.

sambazi
0 replies
4h43m

</s>

Pete-Codes
2 replies
4h19m

Does the other person need a proton account to use it as well?

protonmail
0 replies
3h24m

Recipients who do not have a Proton account need to create a free or paid Proton account to access the shared content. The email invitation includes a link to the Proton sign-up page.

Once account creation is successful, they will receive another email with the link that allows them to access the file.

InsideOutSanta
0 replies
3h31m

Yes, but a free account will work.

unplgtc
1 replies
3h30m

Has anyone (Proton included) talked about their E2EE encryption claims for this web-based document editor? My understanding of E2EE on the web is that it's as much marketing hype as it is true security, given that they can freely break it at any time they please.

Have they actually attempted to solve any problems associated with this space or are they just claiming it and getting the marketing points?

chadsix
0 replies
1h43m

We've been addressing this by taking all of this 'trust' out of the equation at IPv6.rs which is all in the open [1]

</shameless>

[1] https://github.com/ipv6rslimited/

tech_ken
1 replies
5h5m

Google docs’ value is the network effects. Everyone has a Google account, so GDocs is like a universal collaboration tool. Does not seem like there’s a huge space for something like this, it’s going to be a huge pain every time I want to share a doc with someone. Seems like it would be way better to try and distinguish their already successful products by continuing to improve their feature set. For example: their email search bar is hot garbage. Give me the perfect email and calendar client and I’ll be subscriber forever, but I definitely don’t want to pay for an ecosystem of half-finished Google knockoffs

jlarocco
0 replies
2h14m

Not everybody has a Google account.

tamimio
1 replies
2h50m

Emails, password manager, VPN, and now documents—absolutely not a wise thing to do. Never put all your eggs in one basket; your whole personal and even professional life shouldn't be entrusted to a single company.

RDaneel0livaw
0 replies
2h16m

Completely agree. I love Proton, been a paying customer for many years now. I do use the Proton Drive app all the time, and occasionally the vpn when I'm at an airport or hotel.

But I refuse to use their Pass app, and I similarly will refuse to use this new docs app. I use Standard Notes for all my notes (funny enough they joined with Proton this year lol) and Bitwarden for passwords. And then I just let Apple sync all my contacts, and for calendar it's kind of required that I use the ios calendars for family member sharing reasons.

efitz
1 replies
4h17m

Did Engadget jump the gun on this one? I don't see a link, blog post or press release on any of Proton's sites, and I don't see a link in the article.

ognarb
0 replies
4h37m

Proton does a lot of open source washing. Their public communication often mention that they are open source, while in reality only some of their clients are open source and the uploaded source code[1] often lags behind by months (currently 3 months).

[1]: https://github.com/ProtonMail/WebClients

mark_l_watson
0 replies
5h27m

I am a long paid user of ProtonMail so I am glad to see more services. I am trying it now using Safari on iPadOS and it is functional except for one thing: the page layout is very narrow, just 50 columns, and I don’t see how to change that.

lopkeny12ko
0 replies
3h36m

This title is beyond confusing, and the article doesn't even attempt to make it clearer. What does "own version of Google Docs" even mean? I took two reads of the article to understand that Proton's "flavor of Google Docs" actually has nothing to do with Google and is just a collaborative document product that intends to compete with Google Docs. The title makes it sound like Proton is offering a reskinned-Google-Docs-in-an-iframe which is incredibly odd.

blackeyeblitzar
0 replies
3h20m

I’m so happy to see this. I’m not sure why people are complaining here. Maybe you just aren’t their target audience. But many of us want a privacy focused alternative to big tech.

attendant3446
0 replies
3h18m

I just noticed this: "You can upload .docx documents, edit them". Only docx is supported?

ThinkBeat
0 replies
3h19m

(Paying customer) I wish they concentrated more on their core offerings and making them as solid as possible.

If they developed an entire (web) wordprocessor from scratch that seems like an enormous effort and cost quite outside of the core offerings.

If they have (or will) open source it that would be grand.

JumpCrisscross
0 replies
5h6m

Does Proton support calendar delegation yet? (Same for Fastmail. Supporting assistants would open up their market.)