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OpenAI and Apple Announce Partnership

blueelephanttea
98 replies
23h3m

IMO this really feels like the Facebook / Twitter integration from early iOS. That only lasted a few years.

Apple clearly thinks it needs a dedicated LLM service atm. But still thinks it is only supplemental as they handle a bunch of the core stuff without it. And require explicit user consent to use OpenAI. And Apple clearly views it as a partial commodity since they even said they plan to add others.

Tough to bet against OpenAI right now...but this deal does not feel like a 10 year deal...

wg0
41 replies
22h52m

Actually, just in three to five years, lots of "AI boxes" and those magical sparkling icons next to input fields summoning AI would be silently removed.

LLMs are not accurate, they aren't subject matter experts that'll be maybe within 5% error margin.

People will gradually learn and discover anf the cost of keeping a model updated and running won't drastically reduce so we'll most likely see dust settling down.

onion2k
16 replies
22h18m

LLMs are not accurate, they aren't subject matter experts that'll be maybe within 5% error margin.

You're asserting that the AI features will be removed in 3 to 5 years because they're not accurate enough today, but you actually need them to remain inaccurate in 3 years time for your prediction to be correct.

That seems unlikely. I agree that people will start to realize the cost, but the accuracy will improve, so people might be willing to pay.

jhallenworld
8 replies
22h10m

The same argument can be used for Tesla full self driving: basically it has to be (nearly) perfect, and after years of development, it's not there yet. What's different about LLMs?

jaapbadlands
3 replies
21h56m

They don't have to be perfect to be useful, and death isn't the price of being wrong.

ale42
2 replies
21h50m

Death actually can be the price of being wrong. Just wait for someone to do the wrong thing with an AI tool they weren't supposed to use for what they were doing, and the AI to spit out the worse possible "hallucination" (in terms of outcome).

ben_w
0 replies
21h31m

What you say is true, however with self-driving cars death, personal injury, and property damage are much more immediate, much more visible, and many of the errors are of a kind where most people are qualified to immediately understand what the machine did wrong.

An LLM that gives you a detailed plan for removing a stubborn stain in your toilet that involves mixing the wrong combination of drain cleaners and accidentally releasing chlorine, is going to happen if it hasn't already, but a lot of people will read about this and go "oh, I didn't know you could gas yourself like that" and then continue to ask the same model for recipes or Norwegian wedding poetry because "what could possibly go wrong?"

And if you wonder how anyone can possibly read about such a story and react that way, remember that Yann LeCun says this kind of thing despite (a) working for Facebook and (b) Facebook's algorithm gets flack not only for the current teen depression epidemic, but also from the UN for not doing enough to stop the (ongoing) genocide in Myanmar.

It's a cognitive blind spot of some kind. Plenty smart, still can't recognise the connection.

DoughnutHole
0 replies
18h10m

Google’s recent AI assistant has already been documented recommending people mix bleach and white vinegar for cleaning purposes.

Someone’s going to accidentally kill themselves based on an AI hallucination soon if no one has already.

dpkirchner
2 replies
21h50m

There's hundreds+ of companies making LLMs we can choose from, and the switching cost is low. There's only one company that can make self-driving software for Tesla. Basically, competition should lead to improvements.

ben_w
1 replies
21h37m

Tesla aren't the only people trying to make self-driving cars, famously Uber tried and Waymo looks like they're slowly succeeding. Competition can be useful, but it's not a panacea.

nativeit
0 replies
12h38m

Mercedes seems to be eating Tesla’s breakfast on FSD, in particular where safety and real-world implementation is concerned. Their self-driving vehicles are equipped with aqua-colored lights to alert other drivers that it is being controlled via computer, and Mercedes has chosen to honor its liability for incidents/accidents.

ToValueFunfetti
0 replies
21h53m

GPT-4 is 1 year old; 3.5 is 1 and a half. Before 3.5, this wasn't really a useful technology. 7 years ago it was a research project that Google saw no value in pursuing.

wg0
4 replies
20h14m

Anyone claiming that accuracy of AI models WILL improve is either unaware of how they really work or is a snake oil salesman.

Forget about a model that knows EVERYTHING. Let's just train a model that only is expert in not all the law of United states just one state and not even that, just understands FULLY the tax law of just one state to the extent that whatever documents you throw at it, it beats a tax consultancy firm every single time.

If even that were possible, OpenAI et.el would be playing this game differently.

nextaccountic
3 replies
18h43m

Why does a mobile app needs to beat a highly trained professional every single time in order to be useful?

Is this standard applied to any other app?

wg0
1 replies
17h11m

Because it's taxation. Financial well being is at stack. We're even looking at a potential jail time for tax fraud, tax evasion and what not.

My app is powered by GTPChatChat, the model beating all artificially curated benchmarks.

Still wanna buy?

onion2k
0 replies
12h8m

This is one of those "perfect is the enemy of good" situations. Sure, for things where you have a legal responsibility to get things perfectly right using an LLM as the full solution is probably a bad idea (although lots of accountants are using them to speed up processes already, they just check outputs). That isn't the case for 99% of task though. Something that's mostly accurate is good. People are happy with that, and they will buy it.

rchaud
0 replies
53m

Those use cases are never sold as "Mobile apps", but rather as "enterprise solutions", that cost the equivalent of several employees.

An employee can be held accountable, and fired easily. An AI? You'll have to talk to the Account Manager, and sit through their attempts to 'retain' you.

thesz
1 replies
13h4m

My experience suggests that LLMs become not less accurate, but less helpful.

Two years ago they output a solution for my query [1] right away, now they try to engage user to implement that thing. This is across the board, as far as I can see.

These LLMs are not about helping anyone, their goals are engagement and mining data for that engagement.

[1] The query is "implement blocked clause decomposition in haskell." There are papers (circa 2010-2012), there are implementations, but not in Haskell. BCD, itself, is easy, and can be expressed in a dozen-two lines of Haskell code.

tome
0 replies
7h21m

These LLMs are not about helping anyone, their goals are engagement and mining data for that engagement.

Wow, this is a really interesting idea! A sneaky play for LLM providers is to be helpful enough to still be used, but also sufficiently unhelpful that your users give you additional training data.

RodgerTheGreat
10 replies
22h38m

I truly hope the reckless enthusiasm for LLMs will cool down, but it seems plausible that discretized, compressed versions of today's cutting-edge models will eventually be able to run entirely locally, even on mobile devices; there are no guarantees that they'll get better, but many promising opportunities to get the same unreliable results faster and with less power consumption. Once the models run on-device, there's less of a financial motivation to pull the plug, so we could be stuck with them in one form or another for the long haul.

namaria
7 replies
22h22m

I don't believe this scenario to be very likely because a lot of the 'magic' in current LLMs (emphasis on 'large') is derived from the size of the training datasets and amount of compute they can throw at training and inference.

valine
6 replies
22h12m

Llama 3 8B captures that 'magic' fairly well and runs on a modest gaming PC. You can even run it on an iPhone 15 if you're willing to sacrifice floating point precision. Three years from now I full expect GPT4 quality models running locally on an iPhone.

TeMPOraL
4 replies
21h4m

Three years is more than twice the time since GPT-4 was released to now. Almost twice the time ChatGPT existed. At this rate, even if we'll end up with GPT-4 equivalents runnable on consumer hardware, the top models made available by big players via API will make local LLMs feel useless. For the time being, the incentive to use a service will continue.

It's like a graphics designer being limited to chose between local MS Paint, and Adobe Creative Cloud. Okay, so Llama 3 8B, if it's really as good as you say, graduates to local Paint.NET. Not useless per se, but still not even in the same class.

valine
1 replies
20h55m

No one knows how it will all shake out. I'm personally skeptical scaling laws will hold beyond GPT4 sized models. GPT4 is likely severely undertrained given how much data facebook is using to train their 8B parameter models. Unless OpenAI has a dramatic new algorithmic discovery or a vast trove of previously unused data, I think GPT5 and beyond will be modest improvements.

Alternatively synthetic data might drive the next generation of models, but that's largely untested at this point.

Aerbil313
0 replies
20h21m

The one thing people overlook is the user data on ChatGPT. That's OpenAI's real moat. That data is "free" RLHF data and possibly, training data.

refulgentis
0 replies
20h59m

They're extremely pessimistic, 3 years is 200% of how long it took ChatGPT 3.5.

Llama 8B is ChatGPT 3.5 (18 months before L3), running on all new iPhones released since October 2022, (19 months before L3). That includes multimodal variants (built outside Facebook).

nativeit
0 replies
12h57m

I know this isn’t really the point, but Adobe CC hasn’t really improved all that much from Adobe CS, which was purely local and perfectly capable. A better analogy might be found in comparing Encyclopedia Brittanica to Wikipedia. The latter is far from perfect, but an astounding expansion of accessible human knowledge that represents a full, worldwide paradigm shift in how such information is maintained, distributed, and accessed.

On the same token, those of us who are sufficiently motivated can maintain and utilize a local copy of Wikipedia…frequently for training LLMs at this point, so I guess the snake has come around, and we’ve settled into a full-on ouroboros of digital media hype. ;-)

cyanydeez
0 replies
18h24m

Just imagine if you had an accurately currated dataset.

berniedurfee
1 replies
17h52m

I just want to sit down in front of my TV, put on my Bluetooth headphones and have the headphones and TV connect automatically.

Then, when I’m downstairs in my office and want to listen to music on my iPhone. I want my headphones to connect to my iPhone and not my TV upstairs!

I don’t need Skynet, I just need my devices to be a little less stupid.

I would consider that akin to magic at this point. Let’s start there and work our way up to handing over control of our nuclear arsenal.

nativeit
0 replies
12h53m

The University of Washington is studying an AI application where a pair of headphones will isolate a single voice in a crowd when one simply looks at them. Amazing stuff…until you try it anywhere near your car, and then it starts playing the voice over your car stereo (presumably).

ben_w
3 replies
21h43m

LLMs are not accurate, they aren't subject matter experts that'll be maybe within 5% error margin.

The Gell Mann amnesia effect suggests people will have a very hard time noticing the difference. Even if the models never improve, they're more accurate than a lot of newspaper reporting.

People will gradually learn and discover anf the cost of keeping a model updated and running won't drastically reduce so we'll most likely see dust settling down.

So, you're betting on no significant cost reduction of compute hardware? Seems implausible to me.

nativeit
1 replies
12h34m

…they’re more accurate than a lot of newspaper reporting.

Is that when they’re cribbing straight out of the newspaper pages, or is this just a cynical snipe at the poor state of media that, not for nothing, tech companies have had a fair hand in kneecapping?

ben_w
0 replies
12h10m

The criticism of the performance of newspapers goes back well before Lovelace and Babbage:

"""I will add, that the man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them; inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. He who reads nothing will still learn the great facts, and the details are all false."""

- Thomas Jefferson (not Mark Twain), 1807, https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mark-twain-read-newspaper-...

thesz
0 replies
13h17m

So, you're betting on no significant cost reduction of compute hardware? Seems implausible to me.

This is not about compute, but about data.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2404.04125

"...our study reveals an exponential need for training data which implies that the key to "zero-shot" generalization capabilities under large-scale training paradigms remains to be found."

bee_rider
3 replies
22h45m

How do you define a percent error margin on the typical output of something like ChatGPT? IIRC the image generation folks have started using metrics like subjective users ratings because this stuff is really difficult to quantify objectively.

airstrike
2 replies
22h31m

IMHO the terribly overlooked issue with generative AI is that the end users' views of the response generated by the LLM often differs greatly from the opinion of the person actually interacting with the model

this is particularly evident with image generation, but I think it's true across the board. for example, you may think something I created on midjourney "looks amazing", whereas I may dislike it because it's so far from what I had in mind and was actually trying to accomplish when I was sending in my prompt

epolanski
1 replies
21h45m

Your last paragraph is true regardless of how the image was generated.

One can find anything YOU produce to have different qualities from you.

airstrike
0 replies
20h9m

True, but generally what art I produce IRL is objectively terrible, whereas I can come up with some pretty nice looking images on Midjourney.... which are still terrible to me when I wanted them to look like something else, but others may find them appealing because they don't know how I've failed at my objective

In other words, there are two different objectives in a "drawing": (1) portraying that which I meant to portray and (2) making it aesthetically appealing

People who only see the finished product may be impressed by #2 and never consider how bad I was at #1

TeMPOraL
2 replies
20h58m

People will gradually learn and discover anf the cost of keeping a model updated and running won't drastically reduce so we'll most likely see dust settling down.

As mentioned elsewhere, 3 to 5 years is some 3x to 5x as long as GPT-4 exists; some 2-3x as long as ChatGPT exists and LLMs suddenly graduated from being obscure research projects to general-purpose tools. Do you really believe the capability limit has already been hit?

Not to mention, there's lots of money and reputation invested in searching for alternatives to current transformer architecture. Are you certain that within the next year or two, one or more of the alternatives won't pan out, bringing e.g. linear scaling in place of quadratic, without loss of capabilities?

wg0
0 replies
20h22m

I'm pretty sure that statistical foundations of AI where a thing just been shy of 0.004 of the threshold value out of a million dimensional space can get miscategrized as something else will not deliver AGI or any useable and reliable AI for that matter other than that sequence of sequence mapping (voice to text, text to voice etc.) applications.

As for money and reputation, that's a lot behind gold making too in medieval times and look where that lead too.

Scientific optimism is a thinking distortion and a fallacy too.

nativeit
0 replies
12h48m

Tool seems like a strong term for whatever ChatGPT is right now. Absurdly overhyped curiosity? Insanely overengineered autocorrect? Dystopian MadLibs? Wall Street Wank Sock?

I’m not trying to downplay its potential, but I don’t know of anyone who trusts it enough for what I’d consider “tooling”.

cyanydeez
0 replies
18h26m

Right now they're basically a improved search engine, but they aren't solving the hard problem of making money.

Had Google become a utility and frozen it's search engine half a decade or more in the past, we would actually have something you could add AI on top of and come out with an improved product.

As it stands, capitalism isn't going to fix GIGO with AI

bongodongobob
0 replies
22h21m

I don't think that's really what Apple is going to do with it though, it's not going to be for factual question and answer stuff. It will be used more like a personal assistant, what's on my calendar this week, who is the last person who called me etc. I think it will more likely be an LLM in the background that uses tools to query iCloud and such, ie, making Siri actually useful.

lanza
20 replies
23h0m

Ditto. They'll use it now while they stand to benefit and in 3 years they'll be lambasting OpenAI publicly for not being private enough with data and pretend that they never had anything to do with them.

nextworddev
19 replies
22h32m

This partnership is structured so that no data is logged or sent to OpenAI.

moralestapia
6 replies
22h21m

Some people here somehow thinking they will simultaneously outsmart:

* The CEO of a three trillion dollar company that employs 100,000+ of the best talent you could find around the world, with the best lawyers in the world one phone call away. Also, one of the best performing CEOs in modern times.

AND

* The CEO of the AI company (ok ... non-profit) that pretty much brought up the current wave of AI to existence and who has also spent the best part of its life building and growing 1,000s of startups in SF.

Lol.

observationist
5 replies
21h14m

You make it sound like it's merit or competence that landed Cook in that position, and that he somehow has earned the prestige of the position?

I could buy that argument about Jobs. Cook is just a guy with a title. He follows rules and doesn't get fired, but otherwise does everything he can with all the resources at his disposal to make as much money as possible. Given those same constraints and resources, most people with an IQ above 120 would do as well. Apple is an institution unto itself, and you'd have to repeatedly, rapidly, and diabolically corrupt many, many layers of corporate protections to hurt the company intentionally. Instead, what we see is simple complacency and bureaucracy chipping away at any innovative edge that Apple might once have had.

Maintenance and steady piloting is a far different skillset than innovation and creation.

Make no mistake, Cook won the lottery. He knew the right people, worked the right jobs, never screwed up anything big, and was at the right place at the right time to land where he is. Good for him, but let's not pretend he got where he is through preternatural skill or competence.

I know it's a silicon valley trope and all, but the c-class mythos is so patently absurd. Most of the best leaders just do their best to not screw up. Ones that actually bring an unusual amount of value or intellect to the table are rare. Cook is a dime a dozen.

A_D_E_P_T
4 replies
20h30m

I was with you until your last sentence. By all accounts Cook was one of the world's most effective managers of production and logistics -- a rare talent. He famously streamlined Apple's stock-keeping practices when he was a new hire at Apple. How much he exercises that talent in his day-to-day as CEO is not perfectly clear; it may perhaps have atrophied.

In any case, "dime a dozen" doesn't do him justice -- he was very accomplished, in ways you can't fake, before becoming CEO.

observationist
3 replies
20h0m

I look at it from a perspective of interchangeability - if you swapped Steve Ballmer in for Cook, nothing much would have changed. Same if you swapped Nadella in for Pichai, or Pichai for Cook. Very few of these men are exceptional; they are ordinary men with exceptional resources at hand. What they can do, what they should do, and what they can get away with, unseen, govern their impact. Leaders that actually impact their institutions are incredibly rare. Our current crop of ship steadying industry captains, with few exceptions, are not towering figures of incredible prowess and paragons of leadership. They're regular guys in extraordinary circumstances. Joe Schmo with an MBA, 120 IQ, and the same level of institutional knowledge and 2 decades of experience at Apple could have done the same as Cook; Apple wouldn't have looked much different than it does now.

There's a tendency to exaggerate the qualities of men in positions like this. There's nothing inherent to their positions requiring greatness or incredible merit. The extraordinary events already happened; their job is to simply not screw it up, and our system is such that you'd have to try really, really hard to have any noticeable impact, let alone actually hurt a company before the institution itself cuts you out. Those lawyers are a significant part of the organism of a modern mega corporation; they're the substrate upon which the algorithm that is a corporation is running. One of the defenses modern corporations employ is to limit the impact any individual in the organization can have, positive or otherwise, and to employ intense scrutiny and certainty of action commensurate with the power of a position.

Throw Cook into an start-up arena against Musk, Gates, Altman, Jobs, Buffet, etc, and he'd get eaten alive. Cook isn't the scrappy, agile, innovative, ruthless start-up CEO. He's the complacent, steady, predictable institutional CEO coasting on the laurels of his betters, shielded from the trials they faced through the sheer inertia of the organization he currently helms.

They're different types of leaders for different phases of the megacorp organism, and it's OK that Cook isn't Jobs 2.0 - that level of wildness and unpredictability that makes those types of leaders their fortunes can also result in the downfall of their companies. Musk acts with more freedom; the variance in behavior results in a variance of fortunes. Apple is more stable because of Cook, but it's not because he's particularly special. Simply steady and sane.

philwelch
1 replies
18h54m

They're different types of leaders for different phases of the megacorp organism, and it's OK that Cook isn't Jobs 2.0 - that level of wildness and unpredictability that makes those types of leaders their fortunes can also result in the downfall of their companies.

This is absolutely true. But that doesn’t imply that Tim Cook is so unexceptional that anyone with a 120 IQ could do the same job he does. The fact that Steve Jobs himself trusted Cook as his right hand man and successor when Apple probably has literally thousands of employees with at least a 120 IQ should be a sign of that.

Partly because little of this is really a question of intelligence. If you want to talk about it in psychometric terms, based on what I’ve read about the man he also seems to have extraordinarily high trait conscientiousness and extraordinarily low trait neuroticism. The latter of the two actually seems extremely common among corporate executive types—one gets the sense from their weirdly flat and level affect that they are preternaturally unflappable. (Mitt Romney also comes across this way.) I don’t recall where I read this, but I remember reading Jobs being quoted once that Cook was a better negotiator that he was because unlike Jobs, Cook never lost his cool. This isn’t the sign of an unexceptional person, just a person who is exceptional in a much different way than someone like Steve Jobs. And, contrary to what you claim at the top of your comment, someone like Tim Cook is pretty distinguishable from someone like Steve Ballmer in the sense that Ballmer didn’t actually do a good job running Microsoft. I don’t know if that was related to his more exuberant personality—being a weirdly unflappable corporate terminator isn’t the only path to success—but it is a point against these guys being fungible.

aym62SAE49CZ684
0 replies
15h35m

Jobs was growth stocks, Cook is fixed income. Each has their place, and there are good and bad versions of each.

cyanydeez
0 replies
18h29m

Historians often debate whether Hitler was some supernatural leader, or a product of a culture looking for a scapegoat.

I'm on the side of culture. That's what I see with most of the business leaders.

wmf
4 replies
22h29m

The UI shows a "do you want your data to be sent to OpenAI?" popup.

noahtallen
3 replies
22h23m

The parent is partially right, the keynote mentioned that OpenAI agreed to not track Apple user requests.

toomuchtodo
2 replies
22h14m

I would like to see that codified in a binding agreement regulators can surface in discovery if needed. Trust but verify.

hnaccount_rng
0 replies
13h33m

I'm reasonably sure you just described the SEC and the (paraphrasing Matt Levine) "everything is securities fraud"-doctrine. Yes Apple has some wiggle room if they rely on rule-lawyering, but.. I really don't think they can wide-spread ignore the intention of the statements made today.

astrange
0 replies
22h2m

California and EU law require keeping data like that to be opt-in afaik, so it doesn't need a promise to not do it.

kokanee
4 replies
22h0m

The partnership is structured so that Apple can legally defend including language in their marketing that says things like "users’ IP addresses are obscured." These corporations have proven time and time again that we need to read these statements with the worst possible interpretation.

For example, when they say "requests are not stored by OpenAI," I have to wonder how they define "requests," and whether a request not having been stored by OpenAI means that the request data is not accessible or even outright owned by OpenAI. If Apple writes request data to an S3 bucket owned by OpenAI, it's still defensible to say that OpenAI didn't store the request. I'm not saying that's the case; my point is that I don't trust these parties and I don't see a reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.

The freakiest thing about it is that I probably have no way to prevent this AI integration from being installed on my devices. How could that be the case if there was no profit being extracted from my data? Why would they spend untold amounts on this deal and forcibly install expensive software on my personal devices at no cost to me? The obvious answer is that there is a cost to me, it's just not an immediate debit from my bank account.

cyanydeez
2 replies
18h33m

Requests are not stored by openai, but stored by Apple and available on request.

Is how I interpret that. It's similar to that OneDrive language which was basically allowing user directed privacy invasion.

Inevitably,openai will consume and regurgitate all data it touches.

It is not clean and anyone thinking openai won't brutalize your data for it's race to general AI is delusional in one of several ways.

appplication
1 replies
14h10m

I’m not sure I understand the paranoia that Apple is secretly storing your data. Sure they could secretly do so but it doesn’t make any sense. Their whole schtick is privacy. What would Apple benefit from violating what is essentially their core value prop? They’d be one whistleblower away from permanent and irreparable loss of image.

cyanydeez
0 replies
2h9m

Theyre not secretly. They are. They admit it.

The question is, is it encrypted E2E everywhere, how controlled is it on device, how often is it purged.

The ubiquity of cloud means theres a huge privacy attack.surface and unclear how much ofvthat is auditable.

Lastly, theres no reason to think Apple will avoid enshittification as the value of their ecosystem and users grow.

Just takes one bad quarter and a greedy MBA to tear down the walls.

Past privacy protection is no Guarantee of future protection.

Terretta
0 replies
6h42m

The partnership is structured so that Apple can legally defend including language in their marketing that says things like "users’ IP addresses are obscured." These corporations have proven time and time again that we need to read these statements with the worst possible interpretation.

What's the worst possible interpretation of Apple and CloudFlare's iCloud Private Relay?

dosinga
0 replies
22h29m

That won't stop Apple from lambasting later

LtWorf
0 replies
21h52m

Sure

hehdhdjehehegwv
12 replies
22h57m

There’s a lot I don’t like about Sam Altman. There’s a lot I don’t like about OpenAI.

But goddamn they absolutely leapfrogged Google and Apple and it’s completely amazing to see these trillion dollar companies play catch-up with a start-up.

I want to see more of this. Big Tech has been holding back innovation for too long.

swatcoder
6 replies
22h48m

They "leapfrogged" Google on providing a natural language interface to the world knowledge we'd gotten used to retrieving throug web search. But Apple's never done more than toyed in that space.

Apple's focus has long been on a lifestyle product experience across their portfolio of hardware, and Apple Intelligence appears to be focused exactly on that in a way that has little overlap with OpenAI's offerings. The partnership agreement announced today is just outsourcing an accessory tool to a popular and suitably scaled vendor, the same as they did for web search and social network integration in the past. Nobody's leapfrogging anybody between these two because they're on totally different paths.

itishappy
4 replies
22h18m

Siri is a toy, but I don't think that was Apple's intent. It's been a long-standing complaint that using Siri to search the web sucks compared to other companies offerings.

swatcoder
3 replies
22h12m

Apple's product focus is on getting Siri to bridge your first-party and third-party apps, your 500GB of on-device data, and your terabyte of iCloud data with a nice interface, all of which they're trying to deliver using their own technology.

Having Siri answer your trivia question about whale songs, or suggest a Pad Thai recipe modification when you ran out of soy sauce, is just not where they see the value. Poor web search has been an easy critique to weigh against Siri for the last many years, and the ChatGPT integration (and Apple's own local prompt prep) should fare far better than that, but it doesn't have any relevance to "leapfrogging" because the two companies just aren't trying to do the same thing.

itishappy
1 replies
21h57m

That's the complaint! They play in the same space, they just don't seem to be trying. Siri happily returns links to Pad Thai recipes, it's not like they didn't expect this to be a use-case. They just haven't made a UX that competes with others.

And it's not just web search! Siri's context is abysmal. My dad routinely has to correct the spelling of his own name. It's a common name, there are multiple spellings, but it's his phone!

hehdhdjehehegwv
0 replies
21h40m

My favorite thing with names is I have some people in my contacts who have names that are phonetically similar to English words. When I type those words in a text or email, Siri will change those words to people’s names.

hehdhdjehehegwv
0 replies
21h42m

Ah yes, them saying “we’re bad at it on purpose, but are scrambling to throw random features in our next release” is definitely a great defense.

hehdhdjehehegwv
0 replies
21h45m

Apple bought Siri 14 years ago, derailed the progress and promise it had by neglect, and ended up needing a bail out from Sam once he kicked their ass in assistants.

Call it whatever you want.

beoberha
2 replies
22h31m

Big Tech is the only reason OpenAI can run. Microsoft is propping them up with billions of dollars worth of compute and infrastructure

prince_nerd
1 replies
21h56m

And the foundational tech (Transformers) came from Big Tech, aka Google

hehdhdjehehegwv
0 replies
21h48m

It came from Google employees who left to found startups.

Google had technical founders, now it’s run by MBAs and they are having a Kodak Moment.

bee_rider
0 replies
22h42m

Isn’t MS heavily invested in them and also letting them use Azure pretty extensively? Rather, I think this is more like an interesting model of a big tech company actually managing to figure out exactly how hands off they need to be, in order to not suffocate any ember of innovation. (In this mixed analogy people often put out fires with their bare hands I guess, don’t think too hard about it).

Fricken
0 replies
19h42m

Change is inevitable in the AI space, and the changes come in fits and starts. In a decade OpenAI too may become a hapless fiefdom lorded over by the previous generation's AI talent.

kovezd
6 replies
22h30m

Disagree. This feels more like the Google partnership with Apple' Safari that has lasted for long time. Except in this case, I think is OpenAI who will get the big checks.

dereg
1 replies
22h21m

If Apple wasn't selling privacy, I'd assume the other way around. Or if anything, OpenAI would give the service out for free. There's a reason why ChatGPT became free to the public, GPT-4o moreover. It's obvious that OpenAI needs whatever data it can get its hands on to train GPT-5.

astrange
0 replies
22h0m

ChatGPT was free to the public because it was a toy for a conference. They didn't expect it to be popular because it was basically already available in Playground for months.

I think 4o is free because GPT3.5 was so relatively bad it means people are constantly claiming LLMs can't do things that 4 does just fine.

rfdearborn
0 replies
19h30m

This integration is way more limited and frictioned. Whereas with search Apple's fully outsourced and queries go straight to your 3rd-party default, Siri escalates to GPT only for certain queries and with one-off permissions. They seem to be calculating that their cross-app context, custom silicon, and privacy branding give them a still-worthwhile shot at winning the Assistant War. I think this is reasonable, especially if open source AI continues to keep pace with the frontier.

lxgr
0 replies
22h24m

Why would Apple want to keep paying big checks while simultaneously weakening their privacy story?

blueelephanttea
0 replies
22h13m

If Apple were paying to use Google the partnership would not still exist today.

MangoCoffee
6 replies
22h44m

It's a win for OpenAI and AI. I remember someone on Hacker News commented that OpenAI is a company searching for a market. This move might prove that AI, and OpenAI, has a legitimate way to be used and profitable. We'll see.

eddieplan9
5 replies
22h41m

Steve Jobs famously said Dropbox is a feature not a product. This feels very much like it.

nextworddev
2 replies
22h31m

Well, Dropbox is a sub $8bn company now that hasn't really grown in 5 years, so maybe Steve was right?

pembrook
0 replies
21h58m

Yea, I mean…if you’re only doing $3.5Bn in annual revenue at 83% gross margins…like, are you even a product bro?

epolanski
0 replies
21h49m

If anything, your words prove he was absolutely wrong.

joegibbs
0 replies
18h37m

I think he was right - now you've got OneDrive automatically bundled into Windows, iCloud in MacOS, Google Cloud in the Google ecosystem and Dropbox down 25% from IPO with no growth. I get nagging emails from them every month or so asking me to upgrade to a paid plan because I'll definitely not regret it.

dymk
0 replies
22h29m

Looking at their stock performance and the amount of work they’ve put into features that aren’t Dropbox file sync, he appears to have been right. iCloud doc syncing is what DB offered at that time.

Ancapistani
2 replies
22h56m

My gut says that it's a stopgap solution to implement the experience they want.

I think Apple's ultimate goal is to move as much of the AI functionality as possible on-device.

romeros
1 replies
22h39m

yup.. and thats good for the consumers as well because they don't have to worry about their private data sitting on open ai servers.

kokanee
0 replies
21h56m

The idea that they would give ChatGPT away to consumers for free without mining the data in some form or another is naive.

nsonha
0 replies
15h49m

Doubt that Apple can ever come up with a better LLM than OpenAI's, they stopped trying to make Siri as good as Google Assistant after 10+ years now. I don't think they are that good at Cloud or ML compared to other big techs

helsinkiandrew
0 replies
22h54m

But they’ve also signalled they’ll probably support Google/Anthropic in the future

Apple demoed other generative features beyond the OpenAI integration and said it plans to announce support for other AI models in the future.
halotrope
0 replies
20h39m

yeah somehow it reminded me of the fb integration too. we‘ll see how well it works in practice. i was hoping for them to show the sky demo with the new voice mode that openai recently demoed

cyanydeez
0 replies
18h36m

Apple is also claiming they are gonna go privacy protecting AI.

I'm quite skeptical of Apple.

adolph
0 replies
22h59m

Not looking forward to the equivalent of the early Apple Maps years.

talldayo
69 replies
23h32m

The ChatGPT integration, powered by GPT-4o, will come to iOS, iPadOS, and macOS later this year.

Jensen Huang must be having the time of his life right now. Nvidia's relationship with Apple went from pariah to prodigal son, real fast.

ra7
21 replies
23h9m

Didn’t Apple say they’re using their own hardware for serving some of the AI workloads? They dubbed it ‘Private Cloud Compute’. Not sure how much of a vote of confidence it is for Nvidia.

whimsicalism
12 replies
23h5m

not for gpt4o workloads they aren't going to

jsheard
5 replies
22h56m

Plus even if Apple is using their own chips for inferencing, they're still driving more demand for training, which Nvidia still has locked down pretty tight.

ra7
4 replies
22h53m

Apple said they’re using their own silicon for training.

Edit: unless I misunderstood and they meant only inference.

talldayo
1 replies
22h52m

They trained GPT-4o on Apple Silicon? I find that hard to believe, surely they only mean that some models were trained with Apple Silicon.

ra7
0 replies
22h50m

Not GPT-4o, their own models that power some (most?) of the “Apple Intelligence” stuff.

whimsicalism
0 replies
22h48m

without more details hard to say, but i seriously doubt they trained any significantly large LM on their own hardware

people on HN routinely seem to overestimate Apple's capabilities

e: in fact, iirc just last month Apple released a paper unveiling their 'OpenElm' language models and they were all trained on nvidia hardware

jsheard
0 replies
22h51m

Interesting, I thought Apple Silicon mainly excelled at inferencing. Though I suppose the economics of it are unique for Apple themselves since they can fill racks full of barebones Apple Silicon boards without having to pay their own retail markup for complete assembled systems like everyone else does.

stetrain
4 replies
22h49m

Right, but are those going to run on Apple-owned hardware at all? It seems like Apple will first prioritize their models running on-device, then their models running on Apple Silicon servers, and then bail out to ChatGPT API calls specifically for Siri requests that they think can be better answered by ChatGPT.

I'm sure OpenAI will need to beef up their hardware to handle these requests - even as filtered down as they are - coming from all of the Apple users that will now be prompting calls to ChatGPT.

whimsicalism
3 replies
22h41m

they're going to be using nvidia (or maybe AMD if they ever catch up) to train these models anyways

kolinko
2 replies
21h5m

not necessarily so, in terms of tflops per $ (of apple’s cost of gpus, nit consumer), and tflops per watt their apple silicon is comparable if not better

whimsicalism
0 replies
20h49m

flops/$ is simply not all (or even most) that matters when it comes to training LLMs.... Apple releases LLM research - all of their models are trained on nvidia.

talldayo
0 replies
19h47m

and tflops per watt their apple silicon is comparable if not better

If Apple currently ships a single product with better AI performance-per-watt than Blackwell, I will eat my hat.

ra7
0 replies
22h55m

Which is only a subset of requests Apple devices will serve and only with explicit user permission. That’s going to shrink over time as Apple continue to advance their own models and silicon.

lxgr
7 replies
22h56m

They're even explicitly saying:

These models run on servers powered by Apple silicon [...]

That doesn't mean that there are no Nvidia GPUs in these servers, of course.

bbatsell
4 replies
21h35m

They say user data remains in the Secure Enclave at all times, which Nvidia GPUs would not be able to access. I am quite certain that their private cloud inference runs only Apple silicon chips. (The pre-WWDC rumors were that they built custom clusters using M2 Ultras.)

talldayo
2 replies
19h43m

Not that it matters anyways, since Apple refuses to sign Nvidia GPU drivers for MacOS in the first place. So if they own any Nvidia hardware themselves, then they also own more third-party hardware to support it.

7speter
1 replies
17h53m

Maybe this is way too science fiction, but what are the chances Apple's GPU/AI engine designs on Apple Silicon were a testbed for full sized, dedicated GPU dies that could compete with Nvidia's power in their own data centers?

talldayo
0 replies
3h6m

Very low? I guess anything is possible, but the M1 through M4 GPUs weren't really anything to write home about. It more closely resembles AMD's raster-focused GPU compute in my opinion, which is certainly not a bad thing for mobile hardware.

Nvidia's GPUs are complex. They have a lot of dedicated, multipurpose acceleration hardware inside of them, and then they use CUDA to tie all those pieces together. Apple's GPUs are kinda the opposite way; they're extremely simple and optimized for low-power raster compute. Which isn't bad at all, for mobile! It just gimps them design-wise when they go up against purpose-built accelerators.

If we see Apple do custom Apple Silicon for the datacenter, it will be a pretty radically new design. The first thing they need is good networking; a full-size Nvidia cluster will use Mellanox Infiniband to connect dozens of servers at Tb/s speeds. So Apple would need a similar connectivity solution, at least to compete. The GPU would need to be bigger and probably higher-wattage, and the CPU should really emphasize core count over single-threaded performance. If they play their cards right there, they would have an Apple Silicon competitor to the Grace superchip and GB200 GPU.

justinsteven
0 replies
17h7m

They say user data remains in the Secure Enclave at all times

No they don't. They say that the Secure Enclave participates in the secure boot chain, and in generating non-exportable keys used for secured transport. It reads to me as though user devices will encrypt requests to the keys held in the Secure Enclave of a subset of PCC nodes. A PCC node that receives the encrypted request will use the Secure Enclave to decrypt the payload. At that point, the general-purpose Application Processor in the PCC node has a cleartext copy of the user request for doing the needful inference, which _could_ be done on an NVidia GPU, but appears to be done on general-purpose Apple Silicon.

There is no suggestion that the user request is processed entirely within the Secure Enclave. The Secure Enclave is a cryptographic coprocessor. It almost certainly doesn't have the grunt to do inference.

Dunedan
1 replies
22h16m

That quote is about their own LLMs, not about the use of ChatGPT.

lxgr
0 replies
22h15m

Yes, but GP was talking about the AI workloads Apple will be running on their own servers (which are indeed distinct from those explicitly labeled as ChatGPT).

dereg
21 replies
23h14m

If we know anything about Apple, they're going after Nvidia. If anyone can pull it off, it's going to be them.

talldayo
8 replies
23h4m

Well, good luck to Apple then. Hopefully this attempt at killing Nvidia goes better than the first time they tried, or when they tried and gave-up on making OpenCL.

I just don't understand how they can compete on their own merits without purpose-built silicon; the M2 Ultra doesn't shine a candle to a single GB200. Once you consider how Nvidia's offerings are networked with Mellanox and CUDA universal memory, it feels like the only advantage Apple has in the space is setting their own prices. If they want to be competitive, I don't think they're going to be training Apple models on Apple Silicon.

0xWTF
7 replies
22h55m

S&P 500 average P:E - 20 to 25

NASDAQ average P:E - 31

NVidia's P:E - 71

That's a market of 1 vendor. That's ripe for attack.

riquito
3 replies
22h29m

That's a market of 1 vendor. That's ripe for attack.

it's just a monopoly [1] , how hard can it be?

/s

- [1] practically, because of how widespread cuda is

baq
2 replies
22h16m

cuda is x86. the only way from 100% market share is down.

…though it took two solid decades to even make a dent in x86.

baq
0 replies
11h36m

nono - I don't mean cuda works on x86. I mean cuda is x86 - for gpgpu workloads - as in a defacto standard.

talldayo
1 replies
22h53m

Let's check in with OpenCL and see how far it got disrupting CUDA.

You see, I want to live in a world where GPU manufacturers aren't perpetually hostile against each other. Even Nvidia would, judging by their decorum with Khronos. Unfortunately, some manufacturers would rather watch the world burn than work together for the common good. Even if a perfect CUDA replacement existed like it did with DXVK and DirectX, Apple will ignore and deny it while marketing something else to their customers. We've watched this happen for years, and it's why MacOS perennially cannot run many games or reliably support Open Source software. It is because Apple is an unreasonably fickle OEM, and their users constantly pay the price for Apple's arbitrary and unnecessary isolationism.

Apple thinks they can disrupt AI? It's going to be like watching Stalin try to disrupt Wal-Mart.

labcomputer
0 replies
22h21m

Let's check in with OpenCL and see how far it got disrupting CUDA.

That's entirely the fault of AMD and Intel fumbling the ball in front of the other team's goal.

For ages the only accelerated backend supported by PyTorch and TF was CUDA. Whose fault was that? Then there was buggy support for a subset of operations for a while. Then everyone stopped caring.

Why I think it will go different this time: nVidia's competitors seem to have finally woken up and realized they need to support high level ML frameworks. "Apple Silicon" is essentially fully supported by PyTorch these days (via the "mps" backend). I've heard OpenCL works well now too, but have no hardware to test it on.

anvuong
0 replies
22h36m

It's ripe for attack. But Nvidia is still in its growing phase, not some incumbent behemoth. The way Nvidia ruthlessly handled AMD tell us that they are ready for competition.

whimsicalism
5 replies
23h3m

i would strongly take the other side of that bet

dereg
2 replies
22h55m

Nvidia obviously has an enormous, enormous moat but I do think this is one of the areas in which Apple may actually GAF. The rollout of Apple Intelligence is going to make them the biggest provider of "edge" inference on day one. They're not going to be able to ride on optimism in services growth forever.

whimsicalism
1 replies
22h50m

Apple simply does not have the talent pool to take on either nvidia or the big LLM providers anywhere on the stack except for edge inference.

If you're saying Apple is going to 'take on nvidia' in edge inference, then I don't disagree but I would hardly even count that as taking on nvidia.

dereg
0 replies
22h31m

I can't really dispute any of that.

It took almost a decade but the PA Semi acquisition showed that Apple was able to get out of the shadow of its PowerPC era.

Nvidia will remain a leader in this space for a long time. But things are going to play out wonky and Apple, when determined, are actually pretty good at executing on longer-term roadmaps.

Ancapistani
1 replies
22h54m

Personally, I'm taking _both_ sides of that bet.

I think Apple is going to make rapid and substantial advancements in on-device AI-specific hardware. I also think nVIDIA is going to continue to dominate the cloud infrastructure space for training foundational models for the foreseeable future, and serving user-facing LLM workloads for a long time as well.

whimsicalism
0 replies
22h50m

edge inference? sure - but nvidia is not even a major player in that space now so i wouldn't really count that as 'taking on nvidia'.

MR4D
2 replies
22h32m

Why do you think that?

You seem to be positioning this as a Ford vs Chevy duel, when (to me at least) the comparison should be to Ford vs Exxon.

Nvidia is an infrastructure company. And a darned good one. Apple is a user facing company and has outsourced infrastructure for decades (AWS & Azure being two of the well known ones).

dereg
1 replies
22h17m

Apple outsourced chips to IBM (PowerPC) for a long time and floundered all the while. They went into the game themselves w/ the PA Semi acquisition and now they have Apple Silicon to show for it.

MR4D
0 replies
21h11m

But Apple is vertically integrating. Thats like Ford buying Bridgestone.

The only way it hurts Nvidia is if Apple becomes the runaway leader of the pc market. Even then, Apple hasn’t shown any intent of selling GPUs or AI processors to the likes of AWS, or Azure or Oracle, etc.

Nvidia has a much bigger threat from with Intel/AMD or the cloud providers backward integrating and then not buying Nvidia chips. Again, no signs that Apple wants to do this.

gizmo
0 replies
22h26m

Exactly. Apple really needs new growth drivers and Nvidia has a 3bn market cap Apple wants to take a bite out of. One of the few huge tech growth areas that Apple can expand into.

ThinkBeat
0 replies
21h1m

I am of course wrong frequently, but I cannot see how that would happen. If they create cpu/gpus that are faster/better than what Nvidia sells, but they only sell them as part of a Mac desktop or laptop systems it wont really compete.

For that they would have to develop servers that has a mass amount of whatever it is or sell the chips in the same manner Nvidia does today.

I dont see that future for Apple.

Microsoft / Google / or other major cloud companies would do extremely well if they could develop it and just keep it as a major win for their cloud products.

Azure is running OpenAI as far as I have heard.

Imagine if M$ made a crazy fast GPU/whatever. It would be a huge competitive advantage.

Can it happen? I dont think so.

01100011
0 replies
22h29m

Apple could have moved on Nvidia but instead they seem to have thrown in the towel and handed cash back to investors. The OpenAI deal seems like further admission by Apple that they missed the AI boat.

KeplerBoy
14 replies
22h48m

Not sure Nvidia is too happy with Apple.

They are the first ones to ship on-device inference at scale on non-nvidia hardware. Apple also has the means to build data center training hardware using apple silicon if they want to do so.

If they are serious about the OAI partnership they could also start to supply them with cloud inference hardware and strongarm them into only using apple servers to serve iOS requests.

talldayo
6 replies
22h37m

They are the first ones to ship on-device inference at scale on non-nvidia hardware

Which is neat, but it's not CUDA. It's an application-specific accelerator good at a small subset of operations, controlled by a high-level library the industry is unfamiliar with and too underpowered to run LLMs or image generators. The NPU is a novelty, and today's presentation more-or-less confirmed how useless it is for rich local-only operations.

Apple also has the means to build data center training hardware using apple silicon if they want to do so.

They could, but that's not a competitor against an NVL72 with hundreds of terabytes of unified GPU memory. And then they would need a CUDA competitor, which could either mean reviving OpenCL's rotting corpse, adopting Tensorflow/Pytorch like a sane and well-reasoned company, or reinventing the wheel with an extra library/Accelerate Framework/MPS solution that nobody knows about and has to convert models to use.

So they can make servers, but Xserve showed us pretty clearly that you can lead a sysadmin to MacOS but you can't make them use it.

they could also start to supply them with cloud inference hardware and strongarm them into only using apple servers to serve iOS requests.

I wonder how much money they would lose doing that, over just using the industry-standard Nvidia servers. Once you factor in the margins they would have made selling those chips as consumer systems, it's probably in the tens-of-millions.

alextheparrot
1 replies
22h22m

Bit of a detail, but where are you deriving “with hundreds of terabytes of unified GPU memory” from?

talldayo
0 replies
22h9m

I was an order of magnitude off, at least in the case of NVL72: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/gb200-nvl72/

But the point stands, these systems occupy a niche that Apple Silicon is poorly suited to filling. They run normal Linux, they support common APIs, and network to dozens of other machines using Infiniband.

KeplerBoy
1 replies
22h25m

You're approaching this from a developers point of view.

Users absolutely don't care if their prompt response has been generated by a CUDA kernel or some poorly documented apple specific silicon a poor team at cupertino almost lost their sanity to while porting the model.

And haven't they already spent quite a bit on money on their pytorch-like MLX framework?

talldayo
0 replies
21h53m

Users absolutely don't care if their prompt response has been generated by a CUDA kernel or some poorly documented apple specific silicon

They most certainly will. If you run GPT-4o on an iPhone with MLX, it will suck. Users will tell you it sucks, and they won't do so in developer-specific terms.

The entire point of this thread is that Apple can't make users happy with their Neural Engine. They require a stopgap cloud solution to make up for the lack of local power on iPhone.

And haven't they already spent quite a bit on money on their pytorch-like MLX framework?

As well as Accelerate Framework, Metal Performance Shaders and previously, OpenCL. Apple can't decide where to focus their efforts, least of which in a way that threatens CUDA as a platform.

PartiallyTyped
0 replies
22h22m

Imho, the stronghold of cuda is slowly eroding.

Inference can run without it, and could so for years via ONNX. Now we are starting to see more back-ends becoming available.

see https://github.com/openxla

Miraste
0 replies
22h18m

reinventing the wheel with an extra library/Accelerate Framework/MPS solution that nobody knows about and has to convert models to use.

This is Apple's favorite thing in the world. They already have an Apple-Silicon-only ML framework as of a few months ago, called MLX. Does anyone know about it? No. Do you need to convert models to use it? Yes.

whimsicalism
2 replies
22h45m

Apple also has the means to build data center training hardware using apple silicon if they want to do so.

i'm seeing people all over this thread saying stuff like that, it reads like fantasyland to me. Apple doesn't have the talent or the chips or suppliers or really any of the capabilities to do this, where are people getting it from?

KeplerBoy
1 replies
22h38m

Apple is already one of the largest (if not the largest) customers of TSMC and they have plenty of experience designing some of the best chips on the most modern nodes.

Their ability to design a chip and networking fabric which is fast/efficient at training a narrow set of model architecture is not far fetched by any means.

talldayo
0 replies
22h30m

It's worth noting that one of Apple's largest competitor at TSMC is, in fact, Nvidia. And when you line the benchmarks up, Nvidia is one of the few companies that consistently beats Apple on performance-per-watt even when they aren't on the same TSMC node: https://browser.geekbench.com/opencl-benchmarks

mistersquid
2 replies
22h40m

Apple also has the means to build data center training hardware using apple silicon if they want to do so.

If they are serious about the OAI partnership they could also start to supply them with cloud inference hardware and strongarm them into only using apple servers to serve iOS requests

Apple addressed both these points in today’s preso.

1. They will send requests that require larger contexts to their own Apple Silicon-based servers that will provide Apple devices a new product platform called Private Cloud Compute.

2. Apple’s OS generative AI request APIs won’t even talk to cloud compute resources that do not attest to infrastructure that has a publicly available privacy audit.

wmf
1 replies
22h25m

I'm pretty sure those points do not apply to ChatGPT integration. ChatGPT is still running on Nvidia.

mistersquid
0 replies
22h4m

I'm pretty sure those points do not apply to ChatGPT integration.

You’re absolutely right. I got too excited about Apple’s strategy to encourage developers to use Apple Private Cloud Compute.

The UX for ChatGPT as shown for iOS 18 makes it obvious that you are sending data outside the Apple Silicon walled garden.

wmf
0 replies
22h22m

I would say MS Copilot+ is shipping on-device inference a few months before Apple, although at 1000x lower volume.

Whatarethese
5 replies
23h5m

ChatGPT will only be invoked if on device and apple intelligence servers cant handle request.

croes
4 replies
23h4m

To be useful Apple has to share the data with OpenAI

Workaccount2
3 replies
22h39m

I can only imagine Apple has some kind of siloing agreement with OpenAI, Apple can easily afford whatever price to do so.

hnaccount_rng
0 replies
13h19m

There is a wide gap between complying with law enforcement requests and judicial orders and intentionally lying. Yes, if Apple can (trivially) read your data, then one must assume that at least the US government can access your data! Though if that's in your threat model I have a couple of other bad news items for you. Apple actively reduces that surface by moving ~everything to ee2e storage with keys held on customer devices. This is pretty transparently the attempt to be able to say "sorry can't do that without changing OS code and for _that_ discussion we have won in court. Really sorry that we can't help you". And yes, that's probably just to decrease the compliance costs. Still same result

noahtallen
0 replies
22h26m

Yes, also covered explicitly in the keynote that Apple user's requests to openAI are not tracked. (Plus you have the explicit opt-in to even access chatGPT via siri in the first place.)

cube2222
1 replies
23h14m

Eh, it seems from the keynote that ChatGPT will be very selectively used, while most features will be powered by on-device processing and Apple's own private cloud running apple silicon.

So all in all, not sure if it's that great for Nvidia.

01100011
0 replies
22h26m

If OpenAI is furiously buying GPUs to train larger models and Apple is handing OpenAI cash, then this seems like a win for Nvidia. You can argue about how big of a win, but it seems like a positive development.

What would not have been positive for Nvidia is Apple saying they've adapted their HW to server chips and would be partnering with OpenAI to leverage them, but that didn't happen. Apple is busy handing cash back to investors and not seriously pursuing anything but inference.

swatcoder
0 replies
22h17m

Apple's put ChatGPT integration on the very edge of Apple Intelligence. It's a win for OpenAI to have secured that opportunity, and Nvidia wins by extension (as long as OpenAI continues to rely on them themselves), but the vast majority of what Apple announced today appears to run entirely on Apple Silicon.

It's not especially big news for Nvidia at all.

rldjbpin
0 replies
1h2m

given their history, he would only be satisfied when apple is forced to directly rely on nvidia hardware.

current situation is like nvidia devs using macs at work giving mr cook some satisfaction or something.

mvdtnz
18 replies
23h1m

I still don't know a single person who wants this crap. I don't want "AI" in my web browser, I don't want it in my email client, I don't want it on my phone, I just don't want it. And it feels like everyone I speak to agrees! So who is this all for?

rvz
2 replies
22h43m

So who is this all for?

It is for everyone and the rest of us. Like it or not.

"AI" cannot be stopped.

tymscar
1 replies
22h21m

Cringe

rvz
0 replies
22h11m

Cope.

jbm
2 replies
22h41m

Nah, I want it. I use it all the time to do things like translate obscure Kanji and learn more about certain religious texts.

For example: https://chatgpt.com/share/4a31c79b-a380-4fa0-9808-8145e3cfb4...

LLMs are very useful and very helpful, certainly more helpful than ony searching the web. Watching people apply the crypto lens to it is unfortunate for them, it's not a waste of electricity like most crypto, and it isn't useless output.

101008
1 replies
22h24m

I may be wrong, but the first GPT response says that kanji means "spirit" "soul" or "ghost" but a quick Google search says it means "drops of rain"... do you trust GPT on this matter?

https://hsk.academy/en/characters/%E9%9C%9D

jbm
0 replies
21h34m

Yes, the top radical is for drops of rain but the i inclusion of the bottom part has a meaning that clearly aligns with spirit, especially when you see the rare kanji that use it as a component. I only was curious as it was part of another kanji (孁) that I was investigating.

whimsicalism
1 replies
22h58m

maybe you come on too strong for people who disagree to voice it

personally i like it and want it, except in places where it is shoehorned

inferiorhuman
0 replies
13h5m

Considering how AI folks tend to start foaming at the mouth like Elon stans anytime someone doesn't shower Altman or AI with praise, I doubt it.

anvuong
1 replies
22h29m

I actually want a virtual assistant that can reliably process my simple requests. But so far all these companies look like they are still in the figuring out phase, basically throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks. Hopefully after 2 or 3 years things will settle down and we will get a great virtual assistant.

layer8
0 replies
21h54m

I believe this is in the same category as a car that will reliably fully self-drive.

LZ_Khan
1 replies
22h53m

no one wanted an iphone until it came out either

ipaddr
0 replies
22h26m

Everyone wanted something like an iphone and when it came it took over the market. We had a product that got shifted into a third world product overnight.

trustno2
0 replies
22h53m

It did help me to translate nursery rhymes for my kid from one language to another while they still rhyme and mean approximately the same thing. It sucked in gpt-3 but 4o (or whatever is the latest one) is actually really great for that.

It excels in "transfering style from one thing to another thing" basically.

However every time I asked it a factual thing that I couldn't find on Google, it was always hilariously wrong

sureglymop
0 replies
22h53m

I highly agree. And everything it has generated so far has been incredibly mid. Yeah, there may be some legitimate use cases but as it usually goes everyone is overdoing it head first without really thinking enough about it beforehand.

myheadasplode
0 replies
22h55m

I don't really care for AI in google search results or email. It's often wrong and not what I'm looking for. I would like a much better Siri, so hopefully that's part of what we get.

incognito124
0 replies
22h54m

The holders of the shares?

educasean
0 replies
22h50m

Now you know a few. I love the idea of being able to ask my phone for things like "the guy who emailed last week about the interview, what was his name?" without having to dig through emails trying not to lose the context in my head.

c1sc0
0 replies
22h47m

Me! I’m dumping text I write into an LLM all-day to help with editing. And I often start brainstorming / research by opening ChatGPT in voice mode, talk to it and keep a browser open at the same time to fact-check the output.

philsnow
8 replies
22h43m

~~This is not the direction I was hoping Apple would go with AI.

With all the neural this and that bits baked into apple silicon, it has seemed [0] for a while that Apple wanted to run all these workloads locally, but this partnership seems like a significant privacy backslide.

Another comment in this thread said something about they’re using b Apple silicon for these workloads, but didn’t give an indication of whether that silicon lives in Apple datacenters or OpenAI ones.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38725167~~

edit: I should have mentioned that I didn’t have a chance to watch the video yet; a reply to my comment mentioned that it’s addressed in the video so I’ll go watch that later

astrange
2 replies
22h39m

Watch the keynote, it's all clearly explained and you don't need to learn about it from HN comments.

saagarjha
0 replies
16h44m

As I'm sure you're aware people who read Hacker News comments are generally unlikely to watch a hour+ keynote.

philsnow
0 replies
22h25m

I should have put a disclaimer saying that I hadn’t had a chance to watch the video yet. Thanks for mentioning that it’s addressed, I’ll take a look later.

Workaccount2
2 replies
22h33m

Apple is in the position where it caters primarily to the tech ignorant, so coming out an explaining that Apple LLM is a bit worse (read: far worse) than the cool LLM's on the internet because they are privacy conscious is a non-starter.

Local LLM's on regular local hardware (i.e. no $500+ dedicated GPUs) is way far behind SoTA models right now.

Apple is not gonna be in a position where you can practically real-time intelligently chat with Android phones while iPhones are churning out 3 tokens/second of near useless babbling.

philsnow
1 replies
22h19m

(I haven’t watched the video yet)

I completely agree about the market positioning and not keeping up with other platforms’ abilities being a non-starter. I just hope it will be clear how to keep my external brain (phone) from being scanned by OpenAI.

(I don’t want it to seem like I’m just a hater of either Apple or OpenAI; I’m a more-recent adopter of Apple tech and I’m not looking back, and I have an OpenAI subscription and find it invaluable for some uses.)

Another thing I’m going to be looking for in the video is how this initiative jibes with the greenness Apple has been passing really hard. If they’re bringing this kind of generative AI from niches to every iphone, it seems that would add a fair amount of power consumption.

noahtallen
0 replies
22h14m

I just hope it will be clear how to keep my external brain (phone) from being scanned by OpenAI.

It's very clear, the keynote demonstrates that Siri passing a prompt to chatGPT is completely opt-in and only happens when Siri thinks the prompt needs the more generative/creative model that OpenAI provides.

noahtallen
1 replies
22h35m

I don't think this is a fair take. It sounds like the vast majority of the new AI features (including the local personal context for Siri, the various text/image editing features, better photo categorization, and the list goes on) are all local, on-device models, which can, if needed, use Apple's private cloud. That requires public researcher verification of server software for iOS to even talk to it. (Allegedly :))

The OpenAI partnership is seemingly only if Siri decides it doesn't have the full context needed to answer. (E.g. if you ask something very creative/generative.) At that point, Siri says "hey, chatGPT might be better at answering this, do you consent to me sending your prompt to them?" and then you get to choose. Apple's partnership also seems to include the various settings that prevent OpenAI from tracking/training on the prompts sent in.

Honestly, that more creative side of genAI is not as interesting in the full context of Apple Intelligence. The real power is coming from the local, personal context, where Siri can deduce context based on your emails, messages, calendar events, maps, photos, etc. to really deeply integrate with apps. (Allegedly!) And that part is not OpenAI.

atlex2
0 replies
22h1m

Agreed. Apple pretty clearly focused on building an action-tuned model. Also, notice how in the videos you barely see any "Siri speech". I wonder what they used for pre-training, but probably they did it with much more legit datasources-- They're launching with English only.

getpost
8 replies
21h59m

GPT4o access is a handy feature, but, what I was hoping to hear about is an improvement in Siri's language "understanding."

In today's WWDC presentation, there were a few small examples of Siri improvements, such as an ability to maintain context, e.g., 'Add her flight arrival time to my calendar,' wherein Siri knows who "her" refers to.

In my day-to-day experience with Siri, it's clear Siri doesn't have the kind of ability to understand language that LLMs provide. It still feels like clever son-of-Eliza hacks with stock phrases. If your utterance doesn't match with a pre-programmed stock phrase, it doesn't work. The other day I said something like "Play the song you played before the one I asked you to skip," and Siri didn't seem to know what I wanted. OTOH, GPT4o can easily handle statements like that.

Does anyone know to what extent Siri's underlying language models are being upgraded?

asdasdsddd
1 replies
21h36m

Siri just feels like, tokenize input => run classifier over hardcoded actions.

shepherdjerred
0 replies
21h10m

I don't think these actions are hardcoded with the App Intents framework. Even today you can ask Siri to run arbitrary shortcuts via custom keywords.

shepherdjerred
0 replies
21h11m

I agree, this is the biggest annoyance with voice assistants today. The good news is that, as you noted, the technology to interpret complex/unclear requests is definitely already here today with ChatGPT.

I think that Apple demoed this today where the presenter changed her mind mid-sentence during a weather query.

I'm hopeful that means they've added a LLM to interpret the intent of user requests.

saagarjha
0 replies
16h50m

It's worth noting that Apple has been claiming to be able to do this for quite some time. At this point I'm not particularly inclined to believe them.

noahtallen
0 replies
17h22m

I thought from the Apple keynote that Siri is getting a big update to be based on Apple Intelligence, not that this context stuff was getting hacked into the existing Siri model. They talked about new voice transcription features, the ability to correct yourself while talking, deep knowledge of your personal context, etc.

It sounds like a bigger update, where they’re applying gen AI models more broadly across tons of things (including I things like photo categorization), but I guess we’ll see.

blcknight
0 replies
21h55m

In today's WWDC presentation, there were a few small examples of Siri improvements, such as an ability to maintain context, e.g., 'Add her flight arrival time to my calendar,' wherein Siri knows who "her" refers to.

Didn't Cortana do this? Pretty underwhelming in 2024.

aixpert
0 replies
4h52m

being "English only" also indicates that in order to have GPT level comprehension you need to use the real thing.

TeMPOraL
0 replies
20h52m

That's something that I keep wondering about. The existing voice assistants are all garbage across the board. Whatever you say about Siri, Google's assistant is even worse. Meanwhile, for the past couple months, I was able to fire up ChatGPT app and speak to it casually, in noisy environments, and it would both correctly convert my speech to text (with less than 5% errors) and correctly understand what I'm actually saying (even in presence of transcription errors).

All it takes to make a qualitatively better voice assistant would be to give GPT-4 a spec of functions representing things it can do on your phone, and integrating that with the OS. So why none of the companies bothered to do it? For that matter, I wonder why OpenAI didn't extend the ChatGPT app in this direction?

solardev
7 replies
22h38m

I'm confused now... Apple's other announcement today discussed on-device AI.

So what sorts of queries will be on-device and what will be sent to OpenAI? How does this distinction appear in the UI?

noahtallen
2 replies
22h29m

I think the headlines are REALLY muddying things. From watching the Keynote, most of Apple Intelligence is their own stuff, mostly on-device.

Siri explicitly asks you if you want to use chatGPT to answer a query. It does so when it thinks chatGPT will have a better answer. It sounds like that will be for very creative/generative types of things like "please create a 4 course meal with xyz foods," at which point Siri asks you if you want to use chatGPT. It will be very clear, according to Apple.

lxgr
1 replies
22h18m

That said, the Apple Intelligence vs. OpenAI distinction seems much clearer than the Apple cloud vs. local distinction, which I find somewhat concerning.

Sure, the Apple cloud is ultra-secure and private and all, but I'd still like to know what happens where without having to test it myself by enabling airplane mode and seeing what still works.

noahtallen
0 replies
22h7m

Yeah, that's a great point. At the same time, it only takes a couple YouTubers/researchers to do some testing for us to know the answer

sunnybeetroot
1 replies
22h30m

It’s in the keynote video.

solardev
0 replies
20h47m

Ah, thanks. Not in a place where I can watch video right now, but will check it out later.

etchalon
1 replies
22h20m

When you ask Siri a question, it will prompt you to ask whether it can send your query/data to ChatGPT.

All other AI features within the OS are powered by Apple's Private Compute Cloud, which is Apple's code running on Apple's chips at Apple's Data Center.

noahtallen
0 replies
22h18m

All other AI features within the OS are powered by Apple's Private Compute Cloud

Clarification: All other AI features within the OS are powered by on device models which can reach out to the private cloud for larger workflows & models.

JeremyHerrman
7 replies
22h9m

Privacy protections are built in when accessing ChatGPT within Siri and Writing Tools—requests are not stored by OpenAI, and users’ IP addresses are obscured. Users can also choose to connect their ChatGPT account, which means their data preferences will apply under ChatGPT’s policies.

So does this mean that by default, a random Apple user won't have their ChatGPT requests used for OpenAI training, but a paying ChatGPT Plus customer will?

Does this also mean that if I connect my ChatGPT Plus account that my data will be used for training?

It just seems strange to have a lower bar for privacy for paying customers vs users acquired via a partnership.

(yes I'm aware that the "Temporary Chat" feature or turning off memory will prevent data being used for training)

ec109685
6 replies
22h3m

You can permanently disable OpenAI from training with your chat data for your account:

“To disable model training, navigate to your profile icon on the bottom-left of the page and select Settings > Data Controls, and disable “Improve the model for everyone." While this is disabled, new conversations won’t be used to train our models”

blibble
3 replies
21h48m

and if you believe that you'll believe anything

ec109685
2 replies
21h47m

Companies really don’t like being sued for hundreds of millions in punitive damages just for the benefit of training on the small percentage of people that opt out.

blibble
1 replies
21h34m

it's "fair use" mate

kolinko
0 replies
20h56m

no it isn’t

JeremyHerrman
1 replies
21h37m

Great to know! Looks like they only made this change at the beginning of May. Prior to that you had to turn off chat history which wasn't worth it to me.

April 25, 2024: "To disable chat history and model training, navigate to ChatGPT > Settings > Data Controls and disable Chat history & training. While history is disabled, new conversations won’t be used to train and improve our models, and won’t appear in the history sidebar. To monitor for abuse, we will retain all conversations for 30 days before permanently deleting." https://web.archive.org/web/20240425194703/https://help.open...

May 02, 2024: "To disable model training, navigate to your profile icon on the bottom-left of the page and select Settings > Data Controls, and disable “Improve the model for everyone.“ While this is disabled, new conversations won’t be used to train our models." https://web.archive.org/web/20240502203525/https://help.open...

tadala
0 replies
19h50m

You could fill a form and request them not to train; they usually approved it fairly quickly, but did not advertise it well enough!

zug_zug
6 replies
22h51m

This sounds like exactly what I wanted. There have been a number of times I've been in the car and wanting to ask Siri something it couldn't handle has been a lot e.g. "What state am I in, and how far am I to the border to the state I'm going to cross next, and can I pump my own gas on each state I'm driving through?"

Though a bit of that is premised on whether it could extract information from google maps.

okdood64
1 replies
22h16m

Carplay Siri functionality is currently neutered. A lot of times it won't answer more complex questions that would otherwise be answered without Carplay.

shepherdjerred
0 replies
21h8m

I haven't found this to be the case. Does Siri explicitly refuse to answer questions, or does it misunderstand you? Maybe the microphone in your car makes hearing difficult?

noahtallen
0 replies
22h24m

I think most of what you're talking about is going through Apple Intelligence, not chatGPT. That "Apple Intelligence" stuff is supposed to be more local and personal to you, accounting for where you are, your events, things like that. There's an API for apps to provide "intents," which Siri can use to chain everything together. (Like "cost of gas at the nearest gas station" or something like that.) None of that is OpenAI, according to the keynote.

jjulius
0 replies
21h0m

... and can I pump my own gas on each state I'm driving through?

Huh? Seems like an odd thing to feel the need to ask, as up until last year, the answer was always, "Only if you're driving through Oregon or New Jersey".

Now, you're only unable to pump your own in NJ.

jedberg
0 replies
22h24m

Of course that will only work if you're using Apple Maps.

akira2501
0 replies
20h58m

"What state am I in, and how far am I to the border to the state I'm going to cross next, and can I pump my own gas on each state I'm driving through?"

What kind of trip was this where these were pertinent questions? Couldn't you have just rephrased most of them?

"What is my current location?"

"Show maps."

"Which states don't allow you to pump your own gas?"

processing
5 replies
22h43m

"Siri add an alarm for an appointment for the dentist tomorrow at 10"

Sets appointment for 10pm

Will the Siri team be fired or are they in charge of openAI integration?

nullwriter
2 replies
22h25m

Its given that a dentist appointment is never usually at 10PM - this doesn't seem probable. LLMs are good at generalizing

pjerem
0 replies
21h5m

And also, that would still be more useful than the current situation where Siri would just answer that it can not give you the weather forecast because there is no city named "Appointment at 10".

Or it may create an appointment at Athens.

empath75
0 replies
20h14m

Siri without it isn't though. It's so garbage as to be useless.

matsz
1 replies
22h17m

Switching to 24-hour clock solves that problem.

Personally, 12h clock always confused me, so I wouldn't blame Siri.

layer8
0 replies
22h0m

Siri still uses AM/PM for me when speaking, despite having a 24-hour clock configured.

candiddevmike
5 replies
23h14m

Is Siri becoming another "frontend" to ChatGPT?

shironandon
2 replies
23h7m

for most requests.. yes.

qeternity
1 replies
23h2m

No, for selectively few requests.

adolph
0 replies
22h56m

Just the requests that make for a great keynote demo under ideal conditions in SF

visarga
0 replies
23h3m

It was cool how you can just ask Siri to connect you to another LLM.

quintes
0 replies
23h6m

I found some web results that may be useful if you ask me again from your iphone

breadwinner
5 replies
22h46m

My biggest disappointment was that Apple said nothing about leveraging GPT-4 to improve voice recognition in iMessage. Voice recognition of ChatGPT is incredibly accurate when compared to iOS. ChatGPT almost never gets anything wrong, while iMessage/iOS voice recognition is extremely frustrating.

So much so that I sometimes dictate to ChatGPT then cut & paste into iMessage.

noahtallen
3 replies
22h33m

They did talk about Siri being better at voice recognition using Apple's own on-device models, so I imagine that will eventually apply more broadly.

breadwinner
2 replies
22h21m

On-device models will not be big enough in the near future. What makes ChatGPT so awesome at recognition is that their model is huge, and so no matter how obscure the topic of the dictation, ChatGPT knows what you're talking about.

noahtallen
0 replies
22h9m

Apple also talked about their private compute cloud, which allows larger models and workflows to integrate with local AI models. It sounds like they will figure out which features require bigger models and which don't. So I think there is a lot of room for what you're mentioning in the future of this AI platform.

Plus, they talk about live phone call transcriptions, voice transcription in notes, the ability to correct words as you speak, contextual conversations in siri, etc. It 100% sounds like better voice recognition is coming

extr
0 replies
22h7m

Pretty sure transcription is done locally on Pixel phones and it's pretty good. Not as good as ChatGPT, but most of the way there. If current iOS is like a 50, Pixel is like a 90 and OpenAI is like 98.

extr
0 replies
22h8m

You can set up a shortcut that will record you, hit the Whisper API, then copy to your clipboard. It's not as smooth as native transcription or the SOTA on Google phones but it's pretty good.

vessenes
4 replies
23h0m

Um, wow. The major question in my mind: did Apple pay, or did OpenAI pay? (A-la google for search).

Apple is not going to lose control of the customer, ever, so on balance I would guess this is either not a forever partnership or that OpenAI won’t ultimately get what they want out of it. I’m very curious to see how much will be done on device and how much will go to gpt4o out of the gate.

I’m also curious if they’re using Apple intelligence for function calling and routing in device; I assume so. Extremely solid offerings from Apple today in general.

wmf
3 replies
22h11m

Apple is definitely paying because they don't let OpenAI save anything.

layer8
0 replies
21h55m

Yeah, I wonder how many subscribers OpenAI will lose.

kernal
0 replies
21h53m

I don't believe that. Apple is in the driver's seat in this negotiation. I believe OpenAI wanted Apple as a jewel in their crown and bent over backwards to get them to sign. I don't see how OpenAI makes any money off of this, but I do see them losing a lot of money as iOS users slam their service for free as they eat the costs.

ec109685
0 replies
21h56m

They’re letting OpenAI upsell to a professional version, so there is a lot in it for OpenAI to offer this for free, even without the data.

solarkraft
4 replies
21h39m

OpenAI is such a controversial company and good competitors like Anthropic, who arguably align better with their brand, exist. That makes the deal so weird to me.

akira2501
2 replies
20h54m

OpenAI has nothing of particularly high value. They're giving away the store right now just to claim the onboarding. This unsustainable game will end badly and soon.

101011
1 replies
20h22m

Nothing of particularly high value, really?

akira2501
0 replies
19h48m

It's actually a beneficial feature that two people can look at a market and come to two completely different conclusions about it. Yes, I suspect that OpenAI has nothing of lasting competitive value, they're currently overvalued by entities who want their money back, and you can view their recent actions and partnerships through this lens without complication.

impulser_
0 replies
19h48m

It's also weird because Anthropic models are just better for these tasks. Claude responses are almost always better than GPT4.

I stopped using GPT4 because it would just yap on and on about things I don't want in the response. Claude 3 responses feel way more human like because it response with similar information a human would and not with a bunch of unneeded gibber.

By the time this roles out at the end of the year who knows what models would be the best. Why bet on one company's models? We have seen how fast open source models have caught up to GPT4. Why put all your chips into one basket?

quintes
4 replies
23h4m

I just need Apple to be clearly indicating which settings will completely disable this.

thepasswordis
1 replies
22h27m

I will disable it as soon as it tells me how to also permanently disable live photos.

noahtallen
0 replies
22h20m

Settings > Camera > Preserve Settings. Switch "Live Photo" to on. Then disable live photos when taking a picture.

xylol
0 replies
22h48m

Some for now, none in the future I fear.

lxgr
0 replies
22h23m

From the announcement, it seems like it's opt-in, not opt-out:

Apple users are asked before any questions are sent to ChatGPT,
karaterobot
3 replies
22h47m

Privacy protections are built in when accessing ChatGPT within Siri and Writing Tools—requests are not stored by OpenAI, and users’ IP addresses are obscured.

Does anybody believe Apple will not be able to know who sent a given request, and that OpenAI won't be able to use the data in the request for more or less anything they want? I read statements like this and just flat-out don't believe them anymore.

ec109685
1 replies
21h57m

They have tech to obscure IPs in a way that prevents any one entity from being able to de-obfuscate: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102602

karaterobot
0 replies
21h19m

I guess my point is that removing an IP address does not make something anonymous.

RedComet
0 replies
22h16m

"Obscured" sounds weak and deliberately vague on their part.

extr
3 replies
22h13m

Honestly I was surprised at how limited the ChatGPT integration seems to be. It felt like they 80/20'd AI with the onboard models + semantic index, but also wanted to cover that last 20% with some kind of SOTA cloud model. But they didn't necessarily NEED to.

layer8
2 replies
21h57m

They need to in order to not look second-class in terms of chat capabilities. On the other hand, they want to make it clear when you are using ChatGPT, probably not just for privacy reasons, but also so that people blame ChatGPT and not Apple when it gets things wrong.

extr
1 replies
21h45m

This may just be me because I'm a heavy ChatGPT user as-is, but I've had my fill of chat capabilities. What I really want is the context awareness, which is what they seemingly delivered on without OpenAI's help!

layer8
0 replies
21h22m

Note that this is announced as coming in beta this fall, which means they are currently well pre-beta. I would curb my expectations about how well it will work.

cletus
3 replies
22h20m

This is one of those things that seems like a good idea but is really an existential threat to OpenAI.

Having a single extremely large customer gives that customer a disproportionate amount of power over your business. Apple can decide one day to simply stop paying you because, hey, they can afford the years of litigation to resolve it. Can you weather than storm?

Famously, Benjamin Moore (the paint company) maintains its own stores. They have not (and probably will not) sell their products through Home Depot or Lowe's. Why? This exact reason. A large customer can dictate terms and hold you over a barrel if they so choose.

AI/ML is something Apple cares about. They've designed their own chips around speeding up ML processing on the device. A partnerhship with OpenAI is clearly a stopgap measure. They will absolutely gut OpenAI if they have the opportunity and they will absolutely replace OpenAI when they can.

Apple just doesn't like relying on partners for core functionality. It's why Apple ditched Google Maps for the (still inferior) Apple Maps. The only reason they can't replace Google Search is because Google pays them a boatload of money and they've simply been unable to.

This may seem like a good move for OpenAI but all they've done is let the foxes run the hen house.

philwelch
0 replies
21h54m

OpenAI already had a “single extremely large customer”: Microsoft. In fact the Apple deal is the first sign they’re not just a de facto Microsoft subsidiary.

TIPSIO
0 replies
22h12m

Eh.

Apple is just racing to integrate AI into its current compute platform as fast possible.

OpenAI definitely believes a smart enough AI (AGI, ASI) will solve way bigger problems or create essentially a brand new compute platform.

Heck, ChatGPT as a lame LLM is almost its own compute platform already.

Apple is just speeding up people getting used to not needing apps and fancy devices vs simply communicating with an agent.

Who really will need Apple in 10-15 years if AI really does get good enough then?

FanaHOVA
0 replies
21h49m

Is there a single citation for anything you just said?

Apple can decide one day to simply stop paying you because, hey, they can afford the years of litigation to resolve it.

OpenAI and Microsoft also can do the same. Microsoft would be ecstatic to hurt Apple in any way. Also Apple has also no history of doing this with any of the providers they use.

Benjamin Moore (the paint company) maintains its own stores. They have not (and probably will not) sell their products through Home Depot or Lowe's. Why?

Because Home Depot has their own brand, Behr. Each Behr color explicitly says what Benjamin Moore color it's copying, and they take 100% of the revenue as a direct alternative. Do you have any sources on this being a Benjamin Moore decision?

It's why Apple ditched Google Maps for the (still inferior) Apple Maps.

How do you define "still inferior"? How many times a day do you use Apple Maps? Do you have any benchmarks that compare the two?

mupuff1234
2 replies
23h5m

GOOG stock seems to be ok with the announcement.

kernal
0 replies
22h3m

And why wouldn't it be? The strain on Microsoft servers and the free use of their resources by iOS users with very little, if any, in return is a win for Apple. Not so much for OpenAI or Microsoft.

kccqzy
0 replies
22h28m

I'm convinced that GOOG has the necessary engineering chops to pull the same thing off (or to put it less charitably, copy Apple), but hitherto they were hindered by bad product manager decisions leading them to engineer the wrong thing.

Hippocrates
2 replies
22h28m

I was surprised how little they are leaning on OpenAI. Most of the impressive integrations that actually look useful are on-device or in their private cloud. OpenAIs ChatGPT was relegated to a corner of Siri for answering "google queries", if you grant it permission. This seems like an L for OpenAI, not being a bigger part of the architecture (and I'm glad).

extr
1 replies
22h10m

Agreed. The rumors beforehand made it sound Apple and OpenAI would practically be merging. This felt like a fig leaf so Apple could say you can access SOTA models from you iPhone. But for me personally, the deep integration with the ecosystem + semantic index are way way more interesting.

aixpert
0 replies
4h50m

unfortunately Apple's own model is GPT 3.5 class which is way less intelligent than GPT 4

zx10rse
1 replies
21h41m

Well I guess it is time to look around for new devices. This is by far the biggest mistake Apple made.

jiggawatts
0 replies
19h43m

What would you prefer? Less capable products with fewer features? Or a Google product designed in collaboration with their advertising data hoovering team?

summarity
1 replies
23h19m

It’s an interesting vote of confidence in OpenAI’s maturity (from a scale and tech perspective) to integrate it as a system wide, third-party dependency available to all users for free.

willsmith72
0 replies
23h5m

"interesting" is the right adjective. openai's reliability is worse than the typical 2-person startup, but the quality of their ml is just that good.

hu3
1 replies
22h18m

Microsoft owns 49 percent of OpenAI.

That must be some really detailed 100+ pages contract.

I bet Microsoft is mentioned multiple times with things to the effect of: "Under no condition is Microsoft allowed to access any of the data coming from iPhones."

astrange
0 replies
21h54m

No one is allowed to access any of that data.

Microsoft is mostly a cloud company these days though, and they're already an Apple vendor.

daft_pink
1 replies
22h52m

From watching it, it seems like it’s just a kit type integration as it’s super clear that it’s going to a partner and they said they may allow other partners.

rgrmrts
0 replies
22h38m

I really hope so. I don’t trust OpenAI and I’d really rather not have any integrations with them on any of my devices.

35mm
1 replies
22h24m

Anyone know more details about Apple’s servers?

“…server-based models that run on dedicated Apple silicon servers.”

wmf
0 replies
22h20m

It could be as simple as a 1U version of the Mac Studio.

willis936
0 replies
22h48m

Signs of healthy competition and certainly no reason to claim a tech monopoly.

tmaly
0 replies
21h23m

Imagine Apple being able to search for bad things on your phone using AI at the behest of some state or local government request

rvz
0 replies
22h56m

Quite unsurprising that the prediction of a hybrid solution turned out to be true. [0]

The plan is still the same. Eventually Apple will have Apple Intelligence all in-house and race everyone to $0.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40630897

ricksunny
0 replies
22h9m

So, pick your Apple partnership long-arc: 1. Apple-Google[Search] 2. Apple-PaloAltoSemi 3. Apple-PortalPlayer

resource_waste
0 replies
22h22m

People who are getting your data:

Apple

OpenAI

Bill Gates by proxy

US government

???

Also, before anyone says "Oh they'd never do that!". Live in reality. They were already caught with PRISM.

philodeon
0 replies
22h12m

It’s an interesting choice to announce a brand-new standard for privacy guarantees regarding AI/ML queries…

…then announce a partnership with ChatGPT.

mkoubaa
0 replies
22h42m

Yay more shitgpt all over my life

machinekob
0 replies
23h17m

Nvidia stock going to grow another 10% after that.

knodi123
0 replies
22h3m

Oh my god, finally. I can't get over how bad Siri is, compared to Alexa and Google.

jspaetzel
0 replies
22h52m

Siri now powered by OpenAI powered by Microsoft Azure

jaskaransainiz
0 replies
23h9m

Clippy crying

hurril
0 replies
20h56m

I love Apple products but I doubt this will become good.

fungiblecog
0 replies
22h27m

this will work about as well as the tedious fad for chatbots a few years ago

floppiplopp
0 replies
12h12m

Looking at the very pretty marketing page over at Apple's I can honestly say: I've not a single use case for this. I'm sure there's someone who has, but I have to jump through several mental hoops to even imagine how any of this might be barely helpful in very rare edge cases for me.

durpleDrank
0 replies
23h14m

Kind of funny that we got a double LLM situation happening lol.

cdme
0 replies
22h12m

I hate everything about this. Curious how blocking OpenAI's TLDs at the DNS level will go.

bartuu
0 replies
22h23m

I wonder, if Apple made a deal with Open AI, how did they solve the privacy issue?

andrewinardeer
0 replies
20h56m

Now OpenAI has massive contracts with Microsoft and Apple. Two years ago we basically hadn't even raised an eyebrow at OpenAI.

Narkov
0 replies
16h43m

Embrace, extend, extinguish. Classic Microsoft-esq play from Apple.