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Napster sparked a file-sharing revolution 25 years ago

mmh0000
130 replies
1d4h

Napster was such an improvement over what it replaced, but, it’s funny by today’s standards Napster was so “basic”.

I remember waiting 3+ hours for a single song to download. Then discovering it wasn’t what I wanted but a troll who renamed the `Barney The Dinosaur I love you` song. Then I’d spend another 3+ hours downloading a different song. Ah 56k internet, what fun.

Today, TPB and a quick search can give you an artist’s entire discography in one go. Or if you’re into automation, lidarr , sonarr , and radarr can pull in your favorite things as soon as they’re released.

What I find most strange about the modern day piracy is quality. It blows my mind how different groups fight to offer the best version of a free thing. And they’re so good at it, that the pirated product is usually substantially better than the official version.

nvarsj
59 replies
1d3h

What I find most strange about the modern day piracy is quality.

For a lot of pirates, it's a niche hobby to preserve the best quality version of some media / art. I see it as an underground librarian archivist movement.

In 100 years iTunes may be dead, but there will be some person with every album available in high quality lossless FLAC. Same with Netflix and it's bit starved encodes.

pavlov
33 replies
1d2h

Indeed. Many of these pirates are the most devoted fans of the music they store and distribute. They go to gigs, buy merchandise and vinyl editions, and otherwise support the artists directly.

In contrast companies like Spotify don’t care about the music at all. They would just as well sell you white noise if it would somehow give them the slightest improvement in growth or margins.

Daniel Ek, CEO of Spotify, regularly makes statements that suggest he’d rather see professional musicians disappear. Most recently:

https://www.nme.com/news/music/music-fans-and-artists-hit-ba...

listenallyall
13 replies
1d

Many of these pirates are the most devoted fans of the music

...but most are simply pirates, completely detached from the music or the artist. Let's not glorify them.

dasil003
6 replies
1d

Wait, what? There are so many assumptions packed into this statement.

Why should we view things through the lens of whether we are glorifying pirates or not? Is your assertion we should be condemning them? Why? Is it because they are taking bread out of the mouths of musicians? Is it equally bad if Spotify uses their leverage to commoditize and devalue music so musicians can no longer make meaningful money from recorded music? What about music labels who structure deals so they get the bulk of the money for a fraction of the work?

I'm curious to understand the principles you hold that give you such a black and white view on piracy.

listenallyall
5 replies
19h55m

First, when someone uses "many" and "most", it indicates they are avoiding "a black and white view," by acknowledging there are some exceptions.

As to the main point, no individual has the right to take someone else's intellectual property (such as songs, movies, books, etc that were often created by large teams of people over months or years) and, without asking any permission, "liberate" that content so that it can be freely copied and consumed by virtually anyone, anywhere, around the world, without recognition or attribution.

The question isn't whether distribution of the work ultimately does or does not benefit the creator(s), which it often does. It's that the "pirate" has no right to independently make the irreversible decision to freely distribute the content.

MrVandemar
4 replies
17h10m

Copyright impedes accessibility, an important human right. The “pirates” sometimes “liberate” content that has no hope of being released due to a snarl of copyright and artificial regional restrictions.

For example: audio description. Audio description is an accessibility technology that allows people who are blind or low vision to watch films, essentially by providing an extra soundtrack with a narrator concisely providing context for what's going on that can't be accounted for by dialogue or sound effects.

I have owned, in my life, 5 copies of the film Alien. None of those versions are audio described. Up until last year there was no way to hear a described version without resorting to “piracy”. The only way to hear a (mediocre version with a synth voice instead of an expressive human one) described version is to pretend to be in Canada, or attend a theatre capable of delivering AD with the new re-release. It's not a world-wide release.

So, sitting here in a cow-paddock in rural Western Australia, I still have no legal way to watch the audio described version of an oscar-winning film over 40 years old. Having paid 5 times for it, damn right I pirate that. And while I am not vision impaired, there are many others who are who depend on AD to participate in culture, and when they find barriers to that, they pirate that content too.

I have films on DVD I paid for, but cannot legally watch because I'm too many kilometers from some notional border or other. Damn right I “pirated” those!

As to your main point, you note that no individual has the right to take someone else's intellectual property. I presume you are giving your ethical blessing and a free pass to OpenAI and Midjourney et. al. who have provably leveraged a pirated corpus into highly profitable products?

defrost
2 replies
17h2m

So, sitting here in a cow-paddock in rural Western Australia, I still have no legal way to watch the audio described version of an oscar-winning film over 40 years old.

Put a note up in the nearest local store, invite someone from the foodbank around and swap a meal for them describing what happens as you watch the film together.

FWiW I'm also currently living in wheatbelt W.Australia, my father (born 1935) makes a habit of helping out older people (Meals on Wheels, book reading, etc) in the local area that are struggling ..

You might have more legal options than you realise.

MrVandemar
1 replies
16h34m

Hail and well-met!

(Where I am the community is not so great. If you need a casserole, they're in your corner. If you supported gay marriage, and if prefer to do indigenous patch burning instead of let it turn into a wildfire so you can be a hero, then you're about as welcome as a blowfly).

Anyway I'm not vision impaired, I just enjoy audio described films while I'm doing chores or commuting.

Audio description is very much an art, and while some do resort to ad hoc description from friends, it's often clumsy and not immersive. Producing the real thing is highly asymmetric to the film run-time. It takes about 2 hours to properly describe about 20 minutes of a film, depending on the overal genre.

The blind community face an even greater hurdle. I've heard so many stories of blind people signing up to a streaming platform to watch a film, only for the audio description not be avaiable on that platform for that film. Because streaming platform X doesn't have the rights to the AD produced by streaming platform Y. It also leads to a great deal of redundancy as multiple services create entirely distinct AD tracks for the same film. It's crazy!

Piracy is the only way some of these movies and television shows can be enjoyed by some people, and often those people are of limited means.

It's raining here. Hope you get some. :-)

defrost
0 replies
13h10m

"But not too much" (rain) :-)

I did some digital | electronic support work for the WA Institute for the Blind(?) in Perth back in 1984 (ish) and understand the value of goo audio description (and piracy .. or file sharing in hobbyist communities as I might think of it) so I understand your position.

Just being that person on teh internet that likes to point out there are many ways to skin cats .. not that we do that in the country anymore.

listenallyall
0 replies
16h32m

Stange presumption on your part... groups, companies, associations, teams, cooperatives, guilds, whatever... they are collections of individuals and no, they don't have any right to piracy. That includes anyone working on or involved in AI, so if it is unclear to you, I absolutely do not support OpenAI, Midjourney, Claude, ChatGPT or any other AI technology to "learn" or "train" off of others' works without their permission.

rickdicker
4 replies
1d

Presumably if you're pirating music you aren't "completely detached" from the music - otherwise why would you do it?

ineptech
1 replies
1d

In the early 80s, the local pirate scene in my hometown revolved around a guy who I'll call George. George's entire basement was devoted to boxes full of diskettes (5 1/4" in those days) of pirated software and photocopied documentation. All kinds of software - games, office apps, scientific stuff, you name it. Some was downloaded from BBS's but the majority of it was shipped USPS from god knows who.

Thing is, he used virtually none of it. He collected software for the sake of collecting it. He didn't even play video games, just loaded them up once to make sure they ran. He was a hoarder basically, who had stumbled into a niche hobby, and like most hobbyists he would happily share it with anyone who asked.

I'm not saying every pirate is like that, or even most, but I am saying, I don't think the pirate scene works without people like that. The music fans are spokes, but people who do it for the sake of doing it are the hubs.

al_borland
0 replies
23h50m

For the hoarders that don’t share, I don’t really see much of an issue. Sure, they have all that stuff, but they would have never bought it. It’s not actually a lost sale.

afavour
1 replies
20h11m

Hoarding.

I’m half joking but all these tools to automatically download TVs and movies has absolutely led to this class of user that habitually downloads stuff just for the sake of doing it. Terabytes of movies they have no interest in. The psychology of it fascinates me.

hebocon
0 replies
17h7m

The answers for content for which I have interest revolve around cost, availability, quality, and convenience.

For everything else (a minority): an excuse to play with my servers, cosplaying as an archivist, and "number must go up" for NAS size :)

anal_reactor
0 replies
1d

These two are not mutually exclusive

bigfatfrock
11 replies
22h28m

Spotify is a prime example of an amazing service (yet still no FLAC equivalent) offering with a highly developed customer base ruined by the love of money.

lotsofpulp
10 replies
21h48m

Spotify loves money so much it has yet to show a profit in almost 20 years.

pavlov
3 replies
21h27m

As long as you can invest in growth, why not spend on that? The alternative is to report a profit and have it taxed.

Amazon did the same for a long time. It’s a fine strategy if your investors don’t need the immediate returns.

rm_-rf_slash
1 replies
19h44m

Amazon invested in selling physical things and ran a loss forever until AWS became the real money maker.

lotsofpulp
0 replies
6h33m

Amazon was breaking even forever, it rarely lost money. Can’t easily find a chart of it going back to 2000 though.

lotsofpulp
0 replies
20h39m

If the market believed there was growth potential, their annual returns would not be trailing SP500 by 3%+ per year.

Amazon’s market cap grew by much more than the SP500, because the market (correctly) anticipated Amazon being able to earn profits.

Spotify’s ability to earn decent profits is not a given, and in my opinion, their whole business is currently being a negotiating chip between the 3 businesses that own music copyrights (Warner/Universal/Sony) and Apple/Amazon/Alphabet.

musicale
3 replies
21h28m

Spotify posted €168M in profit for Q1 2024.

But executives loving money is a separate issue from whether the company is profitable or not.

Daniel Ek takes no salary but has filed to sell €165M in stock so far in 2024.

lotsofpulp
2 replies
19h40m

Executive compensation is part of a business’s expense, so it is not a separate issue from profit, since profit = revenue minus expense.

Also, Ek could have sold his equity years ago and made more money with less risk by sticking it in SP500. If he really loved money, wouldn’t he have gotten rid of stock in a business losing money and stuck it into something less risky?

My point is to say that Spotify is obviously in a difficult business, given the vendors it has to negotiate with, the competitors it has to compete with, and the customers it has to sell to. It is not some conspiracy or excess short term greed by executives that is hampering its success or ability to pay artists.

kristiandupont
1 replies
11h37m

Executive compensation is part of a business’s expense [...]

Right. So when you said this..

Spotify loves money so much it has yet to show a profit in almost 20 years.

..was your point that Spotify, the company, doesn't love money, even if the executives might?

lotsofpulp
0 replies
6h25m

Spotify “loves” money implies that Spotify is penny pinching because it is in such a powerful position that it can afford to alienate customers, whereas my point is Spotify is probably making a calculation to reduce expenses because it is not even known if it is a viable business yet.

Spotify’s executive compensation is what it is, it is still a large organization managing 9k employees with 600M customers, so they obviously want a carrot to work. Shareholders and board members can vote on compensation they think is undeserved.

In fact, Ek hasn’t even received compensation since 2017, so he’s just been offloading his existing equity from being a founder from way back when. And since Spotify stock has lost money relative to the market for 7 years, Ek has been working for free. He literally could have more money if he had quit working years ago.

https://fortune.com/europe/2024/04/29/daniel-ek-salary-spoti...

ulfw
1 replies
18h53m

And yet it's tech bro founder is a multibillionaire

lotsofpulp
0 replies
6h18m

Why is that relevant? The organization he has lots of equity in due to his negotiations as a founder has 600M customers and 9k employees. The public markets still believe it might be worth a few billion dollars for an organization that has 600M customers with recurring revenue.

The “tech bro” founder could have had billions of more dollars if he had dumped all his Spotify shares years ago.

It does not mean the organization is making a ton of money, or has any pricing power. An alternative is Visa or Verisign of Intuit or Microsoft or Qualcomm or Apple, those businesses have fat profit margins. Those businesses get to set their prices at the highest profit margins. Spotify barely limps along hoping one day it can eke out more than a low single digit profit margin consistently.

cortesoft
4 replies
1d

Spotify might not care as much about the music and the artists as pirates, but they sure pay the artists more.

AlexandrB
3 replies
1d

Barely. Some artists outright tell you to pirate their music since most of their money comes from touring/merch.

ugjka
2 replies
23h18m

I discover stuff on Spotify more than i would ever from pirating and only then i can go watch their live stuff and buy their merch. If I want a Flac i go to Bandcamp though

TaylorAlexander
1 replies
22h34m

Makes me wonder if artists would see the same benefit then if piracy were legal and someone made a nice Spotify-like frontend for it. I think about how places like library genesis have to be so weirdly arranged because of how illegal they are.

ShroudedNight
0 replies
13h52m

Wasn't that essentially what Grooveshark was?

buildsjets
0 replies
1d

For indie artists, the vinyl release frequently comes with a download code for a digital version. Some bands even include lossless versions.

FireBeyond
0 replies
20h25m

For sure, I mean to me, what.cd was the ultimate intersection of musicphiles (as opposed to audiophiles, though there's an overlap) and torrenters.

exe34
7 replies
1d2h

already, Disney has been censoring past episodes not even based on today's sensibilities but it seems purely based on keywords.

there's an episode of the suite life of zach and cody where zach pretends to have dyslexia in order to get extra time in his exams, and near the end of the episode he gets busted and they have a thoughtful conversation about how it's unfair and hurts the people who need the extra time, and he should be less lazy and do the work, etc, and somehow that's too offensive now.

cruffle_duffle
3 replies
21h46m

Disney is only slightly better about nuking old “offensive” content than other providers. Many times they just gave an unskippable “this is culturally offensive to some” text and call it good. For example the old lady and the tramp has that “we are Siamese” song, which I guess is offensive… at least they still let you watch it.

Hulu on the other hand just pulls shit. For example they pulled my favorite it’s always sunny episode where they do that diehard movie. I guess the fact they do black face makes it racist (which they call out as such in the show itself!) and since we are all apparently too stupid to think for ourselves about the content we watch they better block it. After all they know better than me about what is offensive.

… shit like that… that is what is gonna lead me back to piracy.

jamiek88
0 replies
41m

The creators of always sunny pulled that themselves just fyi. They decided as artists that they weren’t cool with it and I think that is their right as creators, personally.

glandium
0 replies
17h9m

I guess that means Hulu doesn't have Tropic Thunder?

exe34
0 replies
21h20m

in the case I mentioned, the episode "smarter and smarterer" just went down the memory hole, it's like it was never there.

cyanwave
2 replies
1d1h

My hope is human nature will prevail. SOME are that sensitive but I think there’s a growing amount of people maybe even a majority that don’t want censorship and nannie’s in media / comedy etc.

amanaplanacanal
1 replies
6h37m

What’s offensive changes from generation to generation. Blackface is a problem because racism is a problem. I can envision a future where racism against blacks is so low that blackface in itself is no longer triggering.

As an example: I grew up in the 60’s and 70’s with the feminist second wave. Women of my generation hated being called girl, for good reason! In that time, men were men, and women were considered children.

Their granddaughters don’t seem to mind the term girl at all. They didn’t suffer the same trauma their grandmothers did. Society has progressed, at least a bit.

seec
0 replies
5h49m

That's a funny and naive take. Racism will never disappear, because it comes from observations of reality. There is a lot of propaganda/social systems and whatnot that tries VERY hard to change that but it will never work in the long term. Nature will prevail. Turns out different races of humans are good at different things, just like you know, different races of dogs or whatever other animal you want to study. The fact that it is politically incorrect to say anything doesn't make reality disappear/change. There is a reason black peoples dominate in all sports but conveniently it doesn't bother anyone...

As for feminist and girls, you clearly drank the Kool-Aid as well. Women were called girls, because even after long maturing process, they still behave like children, or more specifically girls. Now there have been a very long propaganda platform to socially impose the "correct" behavior into men. But the reality hasn't changed, there are significant biological difference in the female human that makes it behave very differently and that becomes more and more noticeable the older they get.

Pretending there has been progress when all you did was censor the truth and impose an ideological vision on society. It's worse than religion, because at least those were created from behavioral observation.

But I guess you are a believer, if that floats your boat, have at it.

jorvi
4 replies
1d1h

In 100 years iTunes may be dead, but there will be some person with every album available in high quality lossless FLAC. Same with Netflix and it's bit starved encodes.

Yeah, nah. WhatCD’s full catalogue has never been recovered.

WarOnPrivacy
1 replies
1d

> some person with every album available in high quality lossless FLAC

nah. WhatCD’s full catalogue has never been recovered.

The loss of WhatCD's torrent database didn't wipe out anyone's library.

JetSpiegel
0 replies
18h16m

The value of a library is that it's all in one place.

Burning the Library of Alexandria also didn't burn the other copies, and yet many books were lost.

thowawatp302
0 replies
12h15m

By virtue of being a private torrent tracker, WhatCD never had that full catalog, itself. The members did and what you consider to be an inability to recover is only because the torrents were never remade. The same thing would happen if the tracker was up and there were no seeds.

eisa01
0 replies
1d

But the successors still have stuff iTunes don't have, and there's even new uploads of old releases that What didn't have ;)

radley
2 replies
1d1h

Same with Netflix and it's bit starved encodes.

Bitrates are tied to the subscription tier. If you do the 4K plan, it's visibly noticeable that 1080p video bitrates are higher. They don't have much 4K content, but the 1080p difference is worth it for my 4K projector.

sargun
1 replies
1d

Subscription tier and device. If your device isn’t capable of playback, there’s no way to get the content.

Forbo
0 replies
22h16m

My device is perfectly capable of playing 4K media, but Netflix has decided that Linux doesn't deserve it.

acchow
2 replies
23h31m

Still frustrated that 1080p bluray looks and sounds significantly better than 4k Netflix. Will a lot of quality stuff be lost forever when these companies disappear?

2OEH8eoCRo0
1 replies
23h11m

Yes but I also don't think enjoyment is gated behind some arbitrary maximum quality.

rightbyte
0 replies
22h47m

Being constantly reminded you are a tool watching some dark filter compressed pseudo-4k video at the mercy of some conglomerate takes away some of the fun in consuming culture.

I feel way freer when watching downloaded films. Like the old VHS days. It is mine.

eisa01
1 replies
1d3h

In addition, quite a lot of the backlog has never been released on iTunes

I wanted to complete a set of DJ mixes, and had to purchase them on Discogs to as there were no digital copies, one cost me EUR50 for one CD...

bratwurst3000
0 replies
1d3h

Hahahaha I had the same problem. Had to buy a vinyl for 80€ and digitilize it. Did upload it then. Now the artist has a bandcamp with the collection for free so sharing is caring

shmuppet
0 replies
2h55m

High quality piracy, especially for music, can convey a lot of social status. Many of the “pirate clubs” online are gated behind presenting your own vault of gems: lots of lossless FLAC files and maybe some rare foreign cd rips.

sharkweek
0 replies
1d

every album available in high quality lossless FLAC.

In college I ate up an entire hard drive downloading the bootleg discography of Pearl Jam live shows in the hugest quality I could find.

Not sure why I needed 50+ live versions of the song Daughter or Yellow Ledbetter but… I had ‘em

satvikpendem
0 replies
1d

Yep, that is why I pirate as well, movies and shows are simply lower quality when streaming than via direct downloads. Plus, I can play them with my own media player and use software like SmoothVideoProject to interpolate the frame rate and use upscalers for sub-4k content.

joshuaturner
0 replies
1d

This is especially true with the current wave of upscaled 4k releases that are, frankly - awful. Eventually, these will be the only versions we have access to on streaming platforms, but someone will have the original Blu-ray remux or DVD rip on their Plex server.

im3w1l
35 replies
1d4h

3+hours? I remember being able to download roughly 10 songs in an hour.

mmh0000
29 replies
1d3h

Look. It was 25 years ago. I’m an old man now. My memory of that time is a haze of multiplayer Quake strategy. How about I rephrase it: it FELT like 3+ hours.

jl6
22 replies
1d3h

It could still have been 3 hours as you would have been constrained not only by your own download speed, but also the peer’s upload speed, and they might have been on an even crappier dial-up line or sharing their bandwidth with other uploads.

brabel
11 replies
1d3h

IIRC Napster downloaded from multiple peers if possible. Each peer could restrict bandwidth so that they didn't get overwhelmed with outbound traffic. So speed would depend vastly on the popularity of content... if many people could provide a song, you could download it quickly (for the time: maybe a few minutes per song), but those where you had to rely on a single peer at a time could take hours.

bawolff
10 replies
1d3h

I'm not sure, but i think it was napster's succesors that introduced that. I dont think napster had that sort of thing.

brabel
9 replies
1d3h

Too long ago, you could be right, maybe KaZaA?

bawolff
8 replies
1d3h

I think so. KaZaa was somewhat famous for implementing that feature using the non-cryptographically secure UUHash algorithm (instead of something like sha1) for better performance, which allowed trolls to insert fake file parts into your downloads.

brabel
6 replies
1d3h

I found a post talking about KaZaA and Napster, and that's right: I forgot but Napster had a central server to provide files, that's why it was so easy to shut down...

https://computer.howstuffworks.com/kazaa.htm

KaZaA didn't store the files itself so it was thought they wouldn't be possible to shutdown. From the site above:

"While Kazaa claims to be "completely legal," there are those who disagree: The free-to-download blue files are controlled by Kazaa users and include copyrighted content."

"Later that year, Kazaa was sued again, this time in the United States by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) and the Motion Picture Association (MPAA). As of February 2005, the decision in that suit is still pending."

I remember they started suing individual users at that time... I found an article explaining that:

https://www.videoproc.com/resource/what-happened-to-kazaa.ht...

"In September 2003, the RIAA filed lawsuits against over 250 individuals, accusing them of illegally distributing about 1,000 copyright music files each, using P2P networks. RIAA sought an average compensation of $3,000 per case."

The result of the first case:

"In July 2006, the MGM Studios, Inc. v. Grokster, Ltd. caused Sharman to settle for $100 million, the amount to compensate the loss of four major music labels – EMI, Sony BMG, Universal Music, and Warner Music. The company also agreed to pay an undisclosed amount to the studios in the industry."

It's unclear exactly how Kazaa got down, the article concludes with "In August 2012, the Kazaa website was no longer active."... "the rise of legal streaming services such as iTunes, Spotify, and Netflix further compounded Kazaa's demise.".

Looks like the music industry managed to scare people away from pirating instead of actually succeeding in bringing them down directly, which is more or less what I remember.

nostrademons
4 replies
1d1h

Napster used a centralized server for indexing but downloads were peer-to-peer. This is what made Napster so awesome on college campuses: you could find anything, but if you chose a local peer, the actual download would happen over the college LAN at godly speeds.

Gnutella brought peer-to-peer searches. Basically it used a flood-fill algorithm: your search would be broadcast to all connected peers, which would broadcast it to all peers that hadn't seen it yet, until somebody responded with the file and their IP and you could download directly from them. Interestingly Ethereum uses basically the same algorithm for block distribution, with some optimizations that were first published by RTM, who was one of the founders of YCombinator.

Kazaa's innovation was to split the peer space into "ordinary nodes" and "superpeers", with the observation that not all bandwidth links were equal. It would enlist hosts on high-bandwidth connections to form quasi-centralized indexing nodes to organize the network topology for all the low-bandwidth consumer nodes. It's a similar principle to how the Lightning Network works for Bitcoin, or how L2s on Ethereum operate. This also made it easier to shutdown than Gnutella though, because being a superpeer made you a legal target for the RIAA.

tithe
3 replies
1d1h

Fun fact: Kazaa's inventors (and their P2P architecture) would later go on to build "Sky peer-to-peer" AKA Skype.

nostrademons
2 replies
19h22m

And Napster's co-founder went on to become the first angel investor in Facebook.

Rinzler89
1 replies
18h0m

Justin Timberlake?

nostrademons
0 replies
17h41m

As portrayed on the big screen.

bawolff
0 replies
1d1h

bit torrent is basically the succesor to all this, and torrenting sites like the pirate bay are still going strong.

parineum
0 replies
1d3h

Napster kept a central repository if who had what files, not the files themselves.

Kazaa and ed2k were distributed. I think ed2k is still viable.

ethbr1
8 replies
1d3h

Curious to hear more informed thoughts from old ISP folks, but afaik one of the things that made Napster possible was that 56kbps connections were roughly symmetrical (~33kbps up?).

By capitalizing on the oft unused upload bandwidth, Napster provided a benefit at little cost.

Would be fascinated to hear what this looked like on the PSTN backend load side, ~2000.

fsckboy
3 replies
1d2h

56kbps connections were roughly symmetrical

I don't think so, asymmetry was the innovation that made 56K possible on POTS (plain old telephone sevice, with only enough bandwidth for squawky voice)

ssl-3
0 replies
20h28m

Sorta-kinda.

v.90 didn't work at all between two regular POTS-connected analog modems. In order for a v.90 connection to happen, the ISP-end of the connection needed to be a digital circuit (typically using ISDN PRI).

By being digital, the gear at the ISP-end was able to precisely and distinctly control each individual bits that would ultimately be converted to analog at a point that was physically near to the user (their local CO switch). This was what gave us asymmetric nature of "56k" v.90.

Eventually, we got good enough at learning how to handle changing line conditions and thereby twiddle the bits with a modicum of precision in the upstream direction. This allowed us to produce a standard with a bit more symmetry: v.92.

v.92 offered up to "56k" (~53k due to FCC limits) down, and 48k up.

A lot of users -- at least in the US -- never experienced v.92. It wasn't formalized until right around the turn of the century, which corresponded well with the time when xDSL, DOCSIS, and/or BRI started showing up even in fairly small not-completely-rural communities at fairly reasonable prices. The local dialup ISP market was beginning to die by then and many never bothered with upgrading their gear to support v.92 before they closed their doors for good.

(All of this wacky dial-up modem tech was both enabled and limited by digital switching in the PSTN. Speeds over dry-pair phone lines could be far higher if there wasn't a digital conversion in the middle, and avoiding that digital conversion is how DSL became possible.

Which is interesting: A DSL circuit was meant to go only across town (ish), and was always betwixt two fixed points. But a point-to-point v.90 or v.92 connection could be established to any properly-equipped machine by just dialing its phone number, and that machine could be across town or on the other side of a continent; it didn't care.)

ethbr1
0 replies
1d1h

From a spec standpoint, acoustic modems were building over wires spec'd for bidirectional voice transmissions, i.e. symmetrical.

I'm curious about the nuances, but it seems like the last mile download/upload imbalance was created by the originating signal mode?

Download = First mile internet to ISP could be upgraded to digital, and thus grab some extra throughout by avoiding analog noise handling

Upload = First mile user to ISP was inherently analog over phone lines, and so sacrificed throughput for line noise tolerance

https://www.edn.com/an-introduction-to-the-v-90-56k-modem/

aeyes
0 replies
22h31m

It was 56k down, 33.6k up.

dpkirchner
1 replies
1d3h

One of the coolest things about the modem age is that you could easily try a different ISP if you weren't happy with your current ISP's performance (upstream and down).

kalleboo
0 replies
12h35m

You can still do that in some places that have open fiber networks! I actually have two ISPs right now running over the same fiber connection (via separate PPPoE connections) - one ISP gives you fixed IP addresses with custom reverse-DNS for cheap so I use it for my apex domain, and the other ISP is Dynamic DNS but has much better performance.

giantrobot
0 replies
22h33m

The 56k specs were asymmetrical, the downstream connection could be 56k (actually 53k) while the upstream connection was only 33.6k. The key with v.90 was the ISP could send a fully digital signal down to the customer but they could only send an analog signal up which was capped by physics to 33.6k.

The later v.92 spec supported a digital upstream and could hit 48k upload.

Regardless, dialup users did not have a lot of upstream bandwidth available. They also suffered through high packet loss and latency making their throughput even lower than their line speed would suggest.

Ylpertnodi
0 replies
1d3h

25 years ago i had an engineer come out: everyone on the street was sharing a connection in the local box. We chatted about tech etc and he put me on a single connection. Sod the neighbors (their connections didn't get slower, mine got faster).

rightbyte
0 replies
1d2h

I don't think you had figured out you needed to download from hosts with the lowest ping to get the top modem speed. I remember like 15min for one song on a 56k modem but like 6-7 min at top speed, which was rare.

nuancebydefault
0 replies
1d

It was more like 4 mins per song on a 56K modem. So you could listen a full song while downloading another. Hence pretty acceptable. The less acceptable part was that nobody could use the phone.

globular-toast
0 replies
1d2h

Nah, your memory serves you well. It really did take three hours sometimes.

dv35z
0 replies
19h19m

Which Quake? Are we talking Q1 E1M1 and the rocket launcher, Q2 Base1 + Quad damage + double-shotty, or Q2CTF and grapple hook-fishing, Action quake or what?? :)

bloopernova
0 replies
1d2h

You wanna LAN party in the old people's home? Although I was better at Unreal Tournament, I like the weapons more.

Asmod4n
0 replies
1d3h

maybe you are misremembering creating mp3 files from CDs, on a 486 it took quite a while to generate a mp3 from a 4 minute wav file. Pentiums with MMX made it quite alot faster.

dclowd9901
1 replies
1d

We had rural phone lines with lots of noise. I think I got 3kB a sec max on those things even with 56k.

skrause
0 replies
23h1m

Most MP3s were 128 kbps back then, so a song would typically be around 3-4 MB. Even at 3 kB per second a download would only take around 20 minutes.

nostrademons
0 replies
1d1h

Hah, my first MP3 took about 2 weeks to download, over ZModem on a 14.4KBps link. I had to work around my parents' Internet-time restrictions - they'd say "times up", I had to disconnect, then I'd pick up again the next time I was allowed on the computer. Then I needed to convince them to buy a ZIP disk to free up enough hard disk space so I could decompress it (my Centris 660AV wasn't fast enough for real-time MP3 playback), then it took another 2 hours to decompress once I'd freed up the requisite 40 MB of hard disk space.

It was 1995 and pretty magical to get CD-quality audio coming out of the computer, though.

madduci
0 replies
1d2h

Yes it was for me 3+ hours. It all depended on codec and length of song. And also the fact that your phone line was kept busy while using it and loosing the connection when your parents wanted to make a telephone call. It was weird but funny at same time

Vvector
0 replies
1d2h

I remember being queued up to download one song from a specific host. My download with be like 6th in line.

steve1977
11 replies
1d2h

And they’re so good at it, that the pirated product is usually substantially better than the official version

How so, when most of these products are digital to begin with? If you have the quality of the studio master, then there’s nothing to improve.

miah_
3 replies
1d2h

There isn't always a studio behind a videos release. Sometimes the only remaining copy of a show is found in somebodies VHS collection and its filled with static and audio pops. These often get a standard 'as-is' release and then somebody in the community will clean it up, upscale the video, and fix the audio for a 'proper' release. Same goes for audio, sometimes its a old bootleg tape of a show that gets digitized and cleaned up.

This is before even getting into 'fan edits' where people will re-add cut scenes, or do other edits to films. For an example of that, search for 'Topher Grace Star Wars Prequel'.

steve1977
0 replies
1d2h

But in most of those cases I wouldn’t really speak of „official“ versions.

rightbyte
0 replies
1d2h

For an example of that, search for 'Topher Grace Star Wars Prequel'

A funny detail in The Obi Wan series are the prequel lookbacks that, if you don't remember how bad they are, make them seem like mediocre movies instead.

Fezzik
0 replies
1d

For a great example of fan edits, compare Harmey’s Despecialized Editions of Episodes 4, 5, and 6 to the butchered final copies that George tried to make be the only available versions; the Despecialized versions are astonishingly superior in content and audio/video quality.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmy%27s_Despecialized_Edit...

Khaine
2 replies
23h58m

I am into Jazz, and would like to buy Ella Fitzgerald's discography. No website will easily let me do that. Pirates do.

ogurechny
0 replies
13h42m

I share that attitude, but you assume that “discography” is an existing product that should magically appear for you to choose. I don't even mean tangled distribution rights, and other legal problems, someone has to do significant about of work to compile such collection. And it's no different from other media. If I decide to collect all books from some author (and it's not a superstar money maker who gets fancy limited edition collected works printed each couple of years), I have to do some research, an understand that Book X has not been reprinted in 15 years, Book Y has a single really questionable translation (or some horrible cover, or a completely delusional editor's preface that the author would never accept), Story Z was only published in some journal, etc.

“P2P discography” is more like a personal collection, personal library shared with others. That person still has to do the similar amount of work to make sure it's not a smoking pile of data. Sometimes they do understand it, sometimes they don't.

Pannoniae
0 replies
22h48m

Same, and what's the thing about those old records - there are either streaming services which have some of it (but streaming services are garbage so I don't consider those) or you can buy the original records one by one, if someone has a copy to sell. Sure, there are CD compilations and whatnot but usually out of print and they aren't sold digitally.

Sooooo..... soulseek and friends it is:)

npteljes
0 replies
1d

Sometimes they further optimize it for a goal, or maximize it to have everything. Sometimes organize it, provide additional material that fans might appreciate, add commentary. Port it to a platform where previously it was inaccessible.

For examples, an artist's discography is sometimes neatly organized in folders, by year, and the files are tagged with metadata. In case of anime, fans improve or outright provide subtitles. They often do extra things like including karaoke for the opening and ending, color coding subtitle lines to match the speaker's personality or design, and provide stylized subtitles for signs and other letterings on the screen. In case of movies, they are often optimized to a specific kind of usage, for example to be able to be viewed on every phone, or to have a minimal file size. Sometimes, especially older releases, are digitally cleaned up and enhanced. Games install easily and is packaged in a way that it just works, without faffing about with the launchers and things like that.

kalleboo
0 replies
12h40m

If you want to watch Lord of the Rings without either a weird color cast or janky AI upscaling artifacts, you need to get a version that pirates have fixed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkNFZkUHeKQ

Streaming services show unskippable ads for their other shows before your stream. Amazon showed an ad for a violent war movie before a kids movie my family wanted to watch.

With pirated copies, you can often get subtitles that were not available with the original (fan-subs)

everyone
0 replies
1d2h

In the case of software removing DRM and shitware either bundled with the product or necessary to use it. In the case of music it's less clear but I would suggest curation and completeness.

throw0101c
3 replies
1d1h

Ah 56k internet, what fun.

Unless you were young and on a college/university campus where your dorm room probably had Ethernet jacks.

WarOnPrivacy
2 replies
1d

> Ah 56k internet, what fun.

your dorm room probably had Ethernet jacks.

One 64k T1 channel, so 14% more fun.

Okay to be fair the modem was probably averaging closer to 32k so double the fun.

throw0101c
0 replies
23h38m

One 64k T1 channel, so 14% more fun.

Except if you were sharing between all the students in the dorm and on campus.

EvanAnderson
0 replies
1d

One 64k T1 channel, so 14% more fun.

A ton less latency, though. T1 connectivity still felt snappy for web browsing long after cable modems pushed up average available bandwidth because the latency was so much better.

issafram
2 replies
1d2h

Quality? I can rarely find FLAC files.

Biganon
0 replies
1d

Private trackers are great for FLAC files.

a1o
2 replies
22h14m

About quality, it's weird it doesn't matter how much bandwidth I seem to have (currently with 1Gbps fiber), the streaming keeps the quality varying down without explanation. If I just pirate the highest quality in less than five minutes I can download the best version of a movie at around 20 GB and watch it in the best quality from start to end without any degradation. Why can't the paid streaming services deliver at the same quality as the pirates?

deadbunny
0 replies
20h23m

Because higher bitrates cost more to store and transmit.if they can drop the size of every file they have by 40% that's 40% savings every time someone streams something even if it looks like dogshit.

belthesar
0 replies
20h30m

They can. You know they can, others (ie: the pirate versions you mention) do. Larger files consume more bandwidth and storage on the CDN, which makes it more expensive. And while there are indeed some issues with lower quality (especially in dark scenes, I'm reminded of the muddy mess in the final episodes of Game of Thrones), most folks are "fine" with the quality we get today. Fine enough, anyway, that they keep paying for the status quo.

That's not to say that they're not interested in providing more quality. There's heavy investment in per-video, and sometimes per-video-section encoding and next generation codecs like AV1. The goal for them though is to get more quality with the same or less storage and bandwidth budget.

TheAceOfHearts
2 replies
1d1h

Gosh this is such a throwback... One of my first experiences with Napster was trying to download Britney Spears' Oops I Did It Again and getting a shitty remix. The worst part was that I didn't check the song, so I ended up burning it to a CD only to find out after the fact that the song wasn't what I was looking for. And every song took so long to download because it was dial-up... It's crazy how much things have changed in a mere 20 years.

squeaky-clean
0 replies
14h14m

I had plenty of experiences like that, but also a happy one once. There was some Slipknot song I had downloaded that was edited to repeat the final chorus 2x. When I head the real song on CD I was disappointed, it was actually a lot better with that one more run through the chorus.

anal_reactor
0 replies
1d

A friend of mine downloaded a bunch of videos "funny hidden camera" and then burned them on a CD and one turned out to be porn. Like, even back then it boggled my mind why he wouldn't have checked.

supafastcoder
1 replies
23h38m

I remember burning CD's full of 1 minute songs that never completed because someone was always calling our house line, disrupting the internet connection (and there were no resumable downloads). Good times ;)

asveikau
0 replies
21h6m

Where did you get those from?

By the p2p era (which napster was) they absolutely needed to do resumable downloads because a peer could suddenly go offline.

Before that I remember getting mp3s from ftp and irc fserves... Ftp definitely had resume, though not all clients and servers did it.

dtx1
1 replies
21h53m

My personal feeling is that Spotify and youtube et. al. killed music piracy. I'd rather pay a small monthly fee and have access to an always up to date music library then torrent everything artist by artist. But that only applies because spotify has basically all the artists i like and want.

noman-land
0 replies
2h9m

"Always up to date" doesn't tell the whole story.

Spotify is cool but I have playlists where half the songs are missing because some invisible licensing deal expired and the songs disappeared from reality.

With Spotify you are renting art. The moment you stop paying rent, your library disappears. Sometimes even before that.

yard2010
0 replies
21h56m

I could hear the modem connecting while you're yelling "DO NOT PICK UP THE PHONE"

peeeee duuuuu denu denu denudenu

teleforce
0 replies
20h17m

Napster is p2p done right, it's a game changer that the music industry was only saved by listening to Apple (read Steve) and doing that catapulted Apple to the first Trillion dollar company in history. It's so good that Metalica members were loosing their sleeps over it. For personally one of the best software I have used of more than 30 years using computer and it's fit for purpose metric was second to none.

Mate, it only takes a few minutes downloading mp3 song that's only a few MBytes, unless you are using dial-up or ADSL connection further down the road from the residential switch.

steve_adams_86
0 replies
12h0m

I remember getting transfer rates of around 10kbps and giving a solid nod of approval as I watched it go. Nice! I’ll get to listen to my song in… 80 minutes!

Aw shit, it dropped to 3kbps.

jakupovic
0 replies
23h33m

I also remember having cable modems and parties with Napster station where people would find download and then play the song of choice. No sign-ups no artificial borders just music. This is still not possible...

brevhtff
0 replies
13h31m

It’s the only place to find classic hardcore and punk.

echelon
28 replies
1d4h

According to the RIAA’s former CEO, Hilary Rosen, a few months after Napster’s release, the music industry shifted into full panic mode. In February 2000, all major label executives discussed the threat during an RIAA board meeting at the Four Seasons Hotel in Los Angeles.

“I will never forget this day. All of the heads of the labels, literally the titans of the music business, were in that room. I had somebody wheel in a PC and put some speakers up and I started doing a name that tune,” Rosen later recalled.

The major music bosses started to name tracks, including some that weren’t even released yet, and time and again Napster would come up with results. Needless to say, the board was terrified.

They're about to be more terrified. Suno and Udio are just the beginning of the complete unraveling of the need for studio capital.

It's going to happen to Hollywood too.

gedy
17 replies
1d4h

Maybe, but don't discount media lobbying gov't, and trying to generate moral outrage about AI stealing from artists, deep fakes, AI safety, etc to make sure only big corps control AI.

HeatrayEnjoyer
15 replies
1d3h

AI stealing from artists, deep fakes, AI safety

This isn't generated outage, it's genuine, and objectively justified. Trying to find clients was hard enough for artists to begin with.

We should be automating hard labor so we can focus on art and human interaction, but instead we're automating art and interaction so we can focus on slaving away even harder. This is somehow worse than any traditional dystopia story. Government propaganda posters were at least the work of a human hand.

echelon
10 replies
1d3h

It's not a conscious choice. It's the fact that the convolutions that create human visual and auditory pleasure are simple signals relative to logic and reasoning.

Nature itself is somehow shaped such that it is easier to create beautiful patterns than it is to engineer complex logical deductions.

It is a fundamental aspect of physics and reality. Beauty is just simple patterns.

We figured out that art is simple math. Engineering and law and planning not so much.

ethbr1
6 replies
1d3h

I'd phrase it as: pop art and culture have been optimizing themselves against the human psyche for so long (much longer than engineering and law and planning) that we have a pretty firm bead on what an every-person will like (mathematically-speaking).

There's tons of avant garde art, but on average it's less popular (because that's not what it's optimized for).

I wouldn't be surprised if GenAI commoditizes pop art, but in turn creates greater demand for abstract, more unique forms.

skydhash
5 replies
1d2h

By its nature, pop art and culture reduce itself to the common expectations of everyone. And as such has only few knobs to tune. But humans can appreciate a wide range of qualities and the more you play on these dimensions, the more reduced the people that will "get" it and appreciate it.

GenAI can be great for pop art, but try to create something unique to you or another person, and it will fail miserably.

echelon
4 replies
1d2h

GenAI can be great for pop art, but try to create something unique to you or another person, and it will fail miserably.

GenAI is just a tool. Creating unique art with unique perspectives is going to be more accessible to more people.

Not everyone will put the work in, but there's a new opportunity in a world full of opportunity cost.

ethbr1
2 replies
1d1h

I'd make the argument that the nature of tools drives much of mass/low-cost art (that is, the majority).

Very few people have the training and complete skill set to fully customize everything.

Consequently, the further you get away from "doing the thing" (e.g. playing an instrument) to "operating the tool that does the thing" (e.g. writing music for a player piano), the stronger impression the tool leaves on your work.

See also the corralling of c64 demos into hardware limitations. Or early electronic music vs 80s+.

echelon
1 replies
22h55m

The electronic music point is good, but I wouldn't label electronic music as inferior or not art.

It's about choosing which parts of your stack are artisanal vs which parts are implemented for you. These choices impact the form factor, but I wouldn't say that they diminish the work itself.

ethbr1
0 replies
18h19m

Not making a point on superiority-inferiority, but rather novelty-homogeneity.

Early electronic music (e.g. musique concrete) was nuts, because they were literally building sound. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=919RleFXcNM

Once the presets were packaged and productized... you ended up with 808 music.

Which wasn't worse, but was objectively less unique.

internet101010
0 replies
1d1h

Yep. Imagine you are a producer that doesn't sing very well but knows exactly what you want. There are TTS VSTs that allow for custom models. You can change the key, length, modulation, etc. by just dragging the mouse along the word(s) and it integrates into your DAW like any other instrument.

wrl
1 replies
1d1h

We figured out that art is simple math. Engineering and law and planning not so much.

Simple math... but mostly a ton of existing human-generated art. Don't act like generative AI isn't standing on a lot of collective shoulders.

Engineering and law and planning not so much.

Maybe OpenAI should have trained it on that first? Simple math, right?

lotsofpulp
0 replies
22h50m

Don't act like generative AI isn't standing on a lot of collective shoulders.

Everything is standing on a lot of collective shoulders.

skydhash
0 replies
1d3h

We figured out that art is simple math.

Art is not about making things beautiful. It's about making things meaningful. Unless compelled by external reasons (Money,...) artists wish to express themselves and to do so the best way the can.

Engineering and law and planning not so much.

All of these aims to be as precise as they can be and wish that they could be Math. But Nature and Humanity randomness won't let them be.

gedy
0 replies
1d3h

Don't blame "AI" for all the cheapening of the arts. It's been that way for a long time, largely due to mass media giving away for very cheap. No one already wants to pay for anything, and artists don't help by putting their works in digital form on the internet. If I want to train a computer model on all this digital stuff, so be it.

If you want to be an artist: perform music live, make a real object like a painting or sculpture, act in a play, etc. Don't be a digital "artist" it's already worth next to nothing.

echelon
0 replies
1d2h

objectively justified.

Subjectively.

GenAI is just a tool.

Artists learn the craft of analogy, allusion, satire, and storytelling. These are portable to new forms and methods of creation, and they'll continue to serve artists that use GenAI.

Software engineers have been constantly reinventing themselves since forever. The stack and frameworks you learn won't last forever, and the field continually gets easier to enter year over year. This is no different than what artists now face.

And now bigger forms of automation and process are available to artists. They don't need studios or big budgets to achieve monumental works - they'll be making movies and games soon. (Without publishers!) And the 99% of non-artists aren't going to put the work in.

These tools are going to be incredible for the artists that adopt them. We're going to see a whole bunch of Vivienne Medranoses, Zach Hadels, and Michael Cusacks.

devbent
0 replies
1d

We should be automating hard labor so we can focus on art and human interaction

We have being doing that for over 100 years now. Look at industrial productivity per worker, it skyrocketed throughout the 20th century. It has plateaued only because all the low and medium hanging fruit was long ago picked and now engineers are busy doing incremental improvements.

I am genuinely curious what sacrifices would have to be made of we went with a fully automated community, from growing food to putting it on store shelves, to running the store, cleaning it, everything. Obviously not all foods are possible to automate end to end, but I wonder how far we could go.

Teever
0 replies
1d3h

The royal we.

What steps have you personally taken to automating hard labour?

jkolio
0 replies
1d3h

One of the funniest moments in modern music history, to me, was when Kim Dotcom got a bunch of superstars to sing on a track about how much they loved MegaUpload. One of the least funny moments was when the RIAA and MPAA essentially directed American and New Zealand authorities to raid his house, shut down the MegaUpload website, seize all the servers, and jail a bunch of his employees (Kim himself only barely escaping extradition).

Episodes like that really do make me fearful of what corporations might push government to do. If they want to get you on something that isn't illegal, they'll try to make it illegal. If it's already illegal, they'll try to make the punishment as severe as possible. Oversight of, and accountability from, these entities is paramount.

sumedh
6 replies
1d3h

Steve Jobs was able to use their fear to sign up most publishers on itunes.

39896880
5 replies
1d3h

And sell outrageously priced MP3 players. There’s no way people were stocking those things with music they paid for.

echelon
1 replies
1d2h

This is exactly what happens when a reverse salient collapses and opens up a new channel of distribution.

jdenning
0 replies
1d1h

OT: thanks for introducing me to the term “reverse salient”! That’s a very useful concept.

tbihl
0 replies
1d2h

Mostly, yeah. My dad, brothers, and I (all one household) had probably 200 CDs between us that we ripped and listened to repeatedly. Paid once per person? Doubtful, but yes, we paid.

samatman
0 replies
19h39m

no wireless. less space than a nomad. outrageously expensive
musicale
0 replies
20h43m

outrageously priced MP3 players

Like the best Apple designs, the iPod redefined its product category. And it put Apple back on track for ARM-based mobile devices.

There’s no way people were stocking those things with music they paid for

Indeed. But you could also rip physical CDs, and the iTunes store managed to sell a lot of 99 cent song downloads, as it was legal, easier than messing with file sharing, and cheaper than buying a whole CD just for a single song.

Arguably the music industry messed up greatly by not making CD singles cheap and ubiquitous (and solving issues with 3" CDs in slot-loading car players, etc.)

CyberDildonics
1 replies
1d

I believe we are going to see significant garnishing of wages in creative field

A wage garnishment is any legal or equitable procedure through which some portion of a person's earnings is required to be withheld for the payment of a debt. Most garnishments are made by court order.

You think because of auto generated music there are going to be court orders to take money out of the paychecks of people in 'creative fields'?

Garnish wages means taking money out of what someone has already earned.

localfirst
0 replies
17h52m

Reduced wages then shall we

washadjeffmad
13 replies
1d3h

I remember how out of control the lawsuits got by the mid-2000s. A friend had to drop out of college and move back home over some multi-million dollar claim on behalf of the RIAA that his family "settled" for $40K. It wasn't even clear he was responsible (the lawsuit was based on IP), but he was scared and admitted to using "file sharing services", and that was that.

I'm still disappointed that laws against barratry didn't become more prevalent in the US as a result of "copyright trolling". Instead, exceptions have been slowly chiseled out of the DMCA to restore a sliver of the rights we used to have.

jjtheblunt
12 replies
1d3h

What rights did you used to have?

steve1977
5 replies
1d2h

And what exactly would you have copied with your rights in, say, the year 1789? And how would you have done that?

logicchains
4 replies
1d2h

You could copy a book, and sell it. This was a big part of the Protestant revolution; the Catholic church didn't want the common people reading the Bible, but back then they had no legal way to control how people used the printing press.

steve1977
3 replies
1d2h

The Bible is not copyrighted. So you could still do that today.

Also I‘m pretty sure the catholic church wanted no one to read the Luther Bible. Neither common people nor others ;)

costco
1 replies
23h45m

The copyright to the King James Version is owned by the crown.

steve1977
0 replies
23h10m

Apparently that’s true (in the UK).

mprev
0 replies
23h3m

Specific translations, such as the NIV, are copyrighted.

bdowling
0 replies
17h53m

Reviewing this a bit more, it was actually the 1710 Statute of Anne in Great Britain that took away our rights to copy whatever we wanted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Anne

PaulDavisThe1st
0 replies
1d2h

We used to have the right to copy whatever we wanted and be accountable to no one.

Unless you copied something of value to a rich and powerful person, in which case your accountability would likely be quite high.

Also, "copying" before 1790 meant something rather different than cp(1).

CPLX
0 replies
1d2h

We used to have the right

That all went away in 1790

Interesting use of the word “we” here.

Also there’s a few other “rights” that have changed since then, not sure this argument has the power you think it does.

sophacles
0 replies
1d3h

The big one is: when you bought a thing you owned it. The anti-circumvention clause is ultimately the root cause of the right to repair movement.

The anti-circumvention clause also means it might be illegal to make a back up copy of media you bought, a thing that always used to be ok.

relaxing
0 replies
4h46m

You had the right to time shift, move between formats, excerpt and edit for academic and research purposes, etc.

xhkkffbf
11 replies
1d3h

And now rock stars who were once as rich as, well, rock stars, are largely forced to get by on a pittance from either Spotify or YouTube. It used to be that there were hundreds of stars getting rich. Now there's Taylor Swift and... I can't name anyone else.

But, hey, the quasi-communists who thought they were somehow liberating the music from the evil rich people ended up dragging all of the music industry down into poverty.

luuurker
2 replies
1d2h

Now there's Taylor Swift and... I can't name anyone else.

Ariana Grande, Adele, Billie Eilish, etc. I believe someone called Kendrick Lamar has been popular recently?

Are they rock stars? No, people tastes are a bit different now, but they are stars and they are rich. You not knowing them is a different problem.

hinkley
1 replies
1d2h

Even Lily Allen is worth $4 mill and I only know - and own - one of her songs.

lotsofpulp
0 replies
22h24m

How is someone’s “net worth” determined, especially someone with no significant publicly traded, liquid assets whose ownership is public information?

bitwize
2 replies
1d3h

This is why we have DRM -- and need more.

coretx
0 replies
23h42m

DRM is done by elected officials, usually parliamentarians. Whenever it's not elected individuals or institutions doing it, it's called tyranny or vigilantism.

artninja1988
0 replies
1d2h

Disagree. DRM is evil and anti consumer. I don't care if there aren't as many billionaire artists as in the past

hinkley
1 replies
1d2h

David Bowie was a billionaire when he died.

It’s true that in the top 50 richest musicians, most of them were already rock gods before Napster. But they all are rock gods.

But then you have people like Swift, Robbie Williams, Dave Matthews and Dave Grohl, most of which were on the cusp. But Grohl for instance worked hard for more than a decade after Nirvana broke up, and I would be very surprised if a lot of his money didn’t end up coming from a combination of the Foo Fighters and royalties. Commentary on one of those net worth sites: the Foo Fighters “have consistently been one of the highest-grossing touring acts in the world for more than two decades.” So yeah.

lotsofpulp
0 replies
22h13m

Commentary on one of those net worth sites: the Foo Fighters “have consistently been one of the highest-grossing touring acts in the world for more than two decades.” So yeah.

Data about “net worth”, especially on free clickbait websites, is garbage speculation with no evidence or basis in reality. It’s not like those website makers have any access to someone’s brokerage accounts and list of assets they have title to or the debt they have.

eddythompson80
1 replies
1d2h

It used to be that there were hundreds of stars getting rich. Now there's Taylor Swift and... I can't name anyone else.

Just becaus you don’t know them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. There are way more than hundreds of “rock stars” that are getting rich now. There are also way more “rock stars” now than there ever was.

redwall_hp
0 replies
1d2h

The "rock star" era was a bubble, at a time of rising demand and limited supply. Digital recording has democratized music, tastes have stratified (thank fuck) and now there's so much supply people have FOMO over discovery tools not finding them optimal recommendations in a sea of possibilities.

On the other side, in the first half of the 20th century, artists were more likely paid a one-off pittance to come into a studio and record a song, and then the record labels profit from it to this day.

Music is worth less now because the supply is vast and the demand is relatively limited. Pretty simple economics. And most artists have always made their money from touring...while concert prices are more eye watering than ever.

wiseowise
0 replies
1d1h

And now rock stars who were once as rich as, well, rock stars, are largely forced to get by on a pittance from either Spotify or YouTube.

Boo hoo. Let me play a song on tinniest violin in the world for them.

neilv
10 replies
1d2h

Napster helped motivate and justify all sorts of nasty DRM and legislation, which has adverse implications for more than just piracy.

And at the time of the MP3 frenzy, there were a relatively small number of people saying, "Wait, won't this mean a backlash of adversarial laws and technology that make things bad for everyone?"

But that was ignored by the masses of newly-arrived Internet users wanting to take stuff for free.

artninja1988
4 replies
1d2h

Isn't this a bit like victim blaming? You should be criticizing the RIAA and lawmakers instead.

neilv
3 replies
1d1h

No, it is not.

I'm not blaming the artists whose work was stolen.

A bunch of people took up thievery. Someone said please stop. They laughed, and were complicit in creating a tech dystopia.

If you want to say they were dumb kids who didn't know any better, we can work with that.

So then the question would be how do they help fix the mess they helped create?

giantrobot
2 replies
21h59m

No one "stole" anything. The original publisher wasn't deprived of anything. Don't use inflammatory language to push a narrative.

Someone downloading a single off Napster no more "stole" that same single when they listened to it on the radio. The person downloading a song was as much of a non-customer as the radio listener.

In fact Napster's rise was coincident with increased CD sales. Napster et al were not causing poor innocent record executives to go hungry or beg on the street.

The thing that killed CD sales wasn't P2P but online music stores like iTunes and then streaming. They served a market demand.

The backwards laws like the DMCA were written and passed before Napster even existed. Blaming Napster for that is not just ahistorical but ludicrous.

neilv
1 replies
21h54m

Yes, I'm familiar with decades of self-serving philosophy rationalizing piracy.

artninja1988
0 replies
18h40m

0 arguments made

lupusreal
1 replies
1d

You're being naive if you think we wouldn't have those laws if not for Napster. If not that pretext it would be another. Floppy disks and flash drives could have been it.

chimeracoder
0 replies
20h54m

You're being naive if you think we wouldn't have those laws if not for Napster. If not that pretext it would be another. Floppy disks and flash drives could have been it.

To this day, if you can find a place to buy a cassette tape or blank CD, you will have to pay a tax (bundled into the price) which goes straight to the record industry as "compensation" to offset the presumed loss of revenue due to unauthorized music sharing.

0xcde4c3db
1 replies
1d

An argument could be made that Napster contributed to the acceleration of that trend, but it was well underway already. The Software Publishers Association was coordinating raids of businesses for pirated software at least as far back as 1991. The WIPO Copyright Treaty was ratified in 1996, and the DMCA was passed in 1998 to implement it. CSS was introduced with DVD in 1996. United States v. LaMacchia was decided in 1994, leading to the passage of the NET Act in 1997. The first versions of SecuROM and SafeDisc were released in 1998. The same year, the Secure Digital Music Initiative was formed.

neilv
0 replies
22h14m

Yep, that's why I said "helped". Obviously software piracy was a problem in some corners. And we knew the kinds of moves that were being made (not just on this, but on things like surveillance and censorship). Then comes things like Napster, serving up on a silver platter a high-profile pretext -- and increased legitimate need that couldn't be ignored.

Aloisius
0 replies
21h36m

DRM existed before Napster.

Hell, the DMCA, which made circumventing DRM illegal, predated Napster.

Indeed, music labels loved DRM because companies like RealNetworks and Microsoft promised them they could do things like charge per play.

romanhn
9 replies
1d2h

Best part of Napster was searching for that one song you were interested in, and then looking through all of that user's shared files. It was an amazing discovery mechanism which I missed dearly with all the subsequent P2P apps. Spotify now fills this void, but it's not quite the same.

grimgrin
4 replies
1d2h

Definitely enjoy browsing a user's shares, and even occasionally checking what's been downloaded from me.

Soulseek goes strong https://nicotine-plus.org/

pea
0 replies
21h22m

Soulseek is absolutely awesome at this. Why don't the record labels shut it down? Have they just given up on P2P?

heed
0 replies
1d1h

Whoa I totally forgot that Soulseek was a thing, thank you! I used to be able to find rare b-sides and live recordings of my favorite bands on it.

consumer451
0 replies
21h54m

I had no idea that this existed.

I already found cool stuff. Thank you so much!

This brings me way back to when I hosted a Hotwire server.

kalleboo
1 replies
12h29m

I'm pretty sure I discovered far more music through browsing people's Napster shares (and the file shares at LAN parties) than I ever have through the discovery features in the modern music streaming apps.

specproc
0 replies
7h33m

Hanging out in mates' rooms at uni, listening to and copying tunes, talking about music and software, smoking weed. This is the ultimate music discovery experience.

Cockbrand
1 replies
1d

My personal favorite was Audiogalaxy, which had a fairly decent recommendation engine. I discovered a lot of excellent music (which I subsequently bought) through this.

specproc
0 replies
7h32m

I liked how you could add songs to your friends' queue, that was a great feature.

mouzogu
5 replies
1d2h

torrent is really a great technology.

subversive and evergreen. genuinely useful and hard to kill.

issafram
4 replies
1d2h

Only if you use a private tracker. Public ones always have seeders whose job it is to collect IP addresses. You'll still get that letter in the mail about pirating

ogurechny
1 replies
13h37m

…if you live under a regime controlled by big media business.

issafram
0 replies
12h5m

Or when Comcast is your ISP...

ls612
0 replies
13h8m

Which is why there are so many VPN services out there. Or seedboxes if you are serious about this stuff.

andai
0 replies
1d1h

Isn't going after torrent makers more important than random downloaders? By that logic shouldn't big music / movie companies be targeting private trackers? (Surely they have enough materials to pass the interview!)

coretx
5 replies
1d4h

Yet we still don't have a safe & resilient alternative for using Kademlia tables. Shame on us.

bawolff
4 replies
1d3h

What's wrong with current generation DHT? They work. They are secure (depending on how you define that). They are reliable. Why would we want to replace them?

coretx
3 replies
23h35m

Anyone with mediocre skills can take it down; ( And more ) that's the problem. I'd rather not mention the specifics because that might give people ideas but they can be found in academic papers.

bawolff
2 replies
22h29m

Not discussing security vulnerabilities helps attackers and hinders defenders.

The obvious question here is - if its so easy, why hasn't anyone done so? When was the last time bit torrent's DHT went down? As far as i know never.

It should be noted that current generation DHTs aren't the same as the original and do have some mitigations from certain attacks.

coretx
1 replies
22h0m

Sybil attacks if i'm not mistaken ;-)

bawolff
0 replies
6h18m

Sybil attacks are like DoS attacks. They are never going away fully. All webservers are vulnerable to DoS attacks and yet in practise it is pretty rare for major websites to go down because of them despite their simplicity.

But there are strategies to mitigate sybil attacks. Requiring hashcash style proof of work to participate in the network, increase state requirements to participate in the network, basing node id's on something the attacker cannot control (e.g. IP addressss), are common strategies often mentioned.

In the context of bit torrent, i guess it doesn't super matter that much. If your goal is to spy on the overlay network, while the entire point is to publicize the tracker data so what is the point of spying on public data? If the goal is to more actively attack the network - having bit torrent be a dual system with traditional trackers (and other ways to find peers) also, means that an attack causes degredation but is not a killing blow to bit torrent. Which in the cost/benefit analysis reduces the benefits, causing attackers to wonder if the cost is worth it.

Like denial of service attacks, the best defence is to make the attack expensive enough that it just isn't worth it.

slyall
1 replies
19h1m

Paramount is very keen on region restrictions. I have a hobby of watching/sharing TV/Movie Trailers and 90% of the time the Paramount ones on youtube will be region locked to the USA.

Hence many don't get shared to a forum that is 80% US residents..

CaptainOfCoit
0 replies
3h43m

Paramount is very keen on region restrictions

Bit too much it seems, as I live in one of the countries mentioned in the article where this documentary is supposed to launch...

Kailhus
0 replies
20h10m

1. Paramount pre sex press obviously! 2. Same here, geo-blocking is the worst.

_fat_santa
4 replies
1d2h

Napster was a little before my time, though I fondly remember torrenting when I was a kid and oddly enough, it was a small time scam that got me into it.

I remember when I was a kid (maybe 13 or 14) I really (and I mean really) wanted to play Grand Theft Auto. My dad picked up a copy of GTA San Andreas for me about a year prior but after seeing the violence and language he forced me to take it back, that put the taste into my mouth and I wanted more.

So I searched for "free video game downloads" and I remember I went to this site that claimed that for just $30, you could "download unlimited video games for free". I begged my parents to let me sign up and pay the $30 until they finally relented and bought it for me.

What it turned out to be was just a tutorial on how to use uTorrent (and they also had an "addon" for unlimited MP3's which taught you how to use Limewire).

I realized pretty quickly I got scammed and I think to date this is the only scam that I've ever fallen for. Kinda worked out though because I learned how to torrent and after a few years I had a basic gaming PC with a hard drive full of games that I had torrented (everything from Crysis to GTA games to every Call of Duty game).

I was also pretty deep into torrenting music right up until Spotify came to the USA (I still remember all the "workarounds" to get Spotify to work in the US before they officially released here, though I didn't try any myself)

Since then Spotify has remained my longest kept subscription and for all it's faults I think Spotify got the solution to music piracy right. With Spotify it was just more convenient to pay them every month then to bother pirating music and uploading it to my iPhone.

zulban
1 replies
1d1h

Doesn't sound like a scam. You wanted to buy a fish and they gave you a fishing pole. And for just 30$? Some online training today costs many thousands of dollars. Indeed you must be young because you think online tutorials must be free and instructors charging for their work is a scam.

noman-land
0 replies
2h4m

I dunno. If I went to the grocery store to buy a fish for dinner, I wouldn't be amused by receiving a fishing rod instead.

xandrius
0 replies
22h49m

This is probably the cutest scam I've ever heard of.

It feels like an old gramp saying "come here, today you will learn 2 life lessons".

andai
0 replies
1d1h

How is that a scam? You received, as promised, the ability to download infinite games for free :)

sorenjan
3 replies
1d

I rarely see it mentioned when discussing old file sharing programs, but I thought DC++ was the best. With the right hubs you could find anything you wanted, you could download parts of a file from multiple peers, you could browse a user's shared files to find new stuff, we had a server in our university network that RIAA/MPAA could find, there was a chat for each server, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC%2B%2B

whateveracct
0 replies
16h4m

Before YouTube (and Google video..remember that?), Super Smash Bros Melee players shared matches and combo videos on a DC++ hub. It was THE place to find footage of people pushing the game to its (then) limits.

Another DC++ use that persisted well beyond streaming and torrents was Dtella, the file-sharing network on Purdue dormitory intranet.

kalleboo
0 replies
12h24m

At our university, DC++ was the king. When I started, each dorm room had a 10 Mbit switched port, and each dorm area had a shared 100 Mbit uplink to the university network. So if just 10 people were downloading, you'd instantly overwhelm the uplink. So everyone was instructed to [tag] their username with which dorm they were in, so you'd prioritize people in the same network as yourself for the fastest downloads and so that uni IT could keep a blind eye to us as we weren't killing the uplinks.

(a year or two later, the dorms were disconnected from the university network and connected to an open city fiber network with commercial ISPs with 100 Mbit ports and no uplink contention and DC++ went away as people could now use public BitTorrents)

joemazerino
0 replies
1d

DC++ was a superior file sharing app. I used it often. I liked how you could control ratios from individual downloaders or servers.

ww520
2 replies
1d2h

Ah good time. Bring back memory. My involvement with that period was I wrote a p2p file sharing app using the Gnutella protocol, an alternative to the Napster. It was a fun time.

andai
1 replies
1d1h

That's what Limewire used right? Is that network still a thing? Last I checked it was, but full of bots that return fake files named after your exact search query.

ww520
0 replies
1d1h

Yes. Limewire came out a bit later. All the apps with the same protocol could talk to each other. Initially mine was open sourced as well. I close sourced it after selling it to a company.

tmalsburg2
2 replies
1d

Napster may have started the file sharing revolution. But the exciting part for me was Gnutella and later Bittorrent, peer-to-peer technology in general, and the realization that we could use technology to liberate ourselves. Needless to say, I was young and naïve. That spirit is long dead, and the only remnants are crypto currencies and the community around them, which has tossed all lofty ideals in favor of blind greed.

xandrius
0 replies
22h52m

I think you need to check better: piratebay and so many of older tech is still being used, for many different niches (I find each country having their own preferred way to distribute content in their native language).

Nowadays the only people left are the ones wanting to put the extractor effort for the principle of it, the rest can easily find most things somewhere (and if not give up). But there are still lots of us! (or so it feels like)

mindslight
0 replies
21h23m

napster asked me if I wanted to work on his project, and I told him I saw no future because it would inevitably just get shut down. From my perspective looking back, Napster was the start of the trend of startup companies based around brazenly flouting the law directly as a middleman, then when finally called out just bargaining with the incumbents to arbitrage their user base and associated hipness for a payout.

I still don't think the dream of techno-liberation is dead. Rather the naive bits were thinking the sea change would happen so quickly, and thinking that the same old type of vectoralist hucksters wouldn't seek to corrupt our new systems. In actuality our systems need to be designed with the perspective of all possible gatekeepers as attackers. For example take the End to End principle - it's not sufficient to merely tell the network to not meddle with your communications, those communications must be cryptographically protected to avoid any temptation. Otherwise as you commit an increasing amount of value to your use of the network, it merely becomes a question of when the network operators will eventually try to take advantage of you to extract some of that value.

The big issue these days is there is so much capital funding "startups" that are essentially centralized crud apps running that same pump-and-dump arbitrage playbook. They buy lots of advertising and other mindshare (cf "It is difficult to get a man to understand something...") and generally use up most of the air in the room.

swed420
2 replies
1d2h

Excerpts from chapter 5 of "Free as in Freedom" (freely available at https://www.oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/):

Although based on proprietary software, the Napster system draws inspiration from the long-held Stallman contention that once a work enters the digital realm-in other words, once making a copy is less a matter of duplicating sounds or duplicating atoms and more a matter of duplicating information-the natural human impulse to share a work becomes harder to restrict. Rather than impose additional restrictions, Napster execs have decided to take advantage of the impulse. Giving music listeners a central place to trade music files, the company has gambled on its ability to steer the resulting user traffic toward other commercial opportunities.

The sudden success of the Napster model has put the fear in traditional record companies, with good reason. Just days before my Palo Alto meeting with Stallman, U.S. District Court Judge Marilyn Patel granted a request filed by the Recording Industry Association of America for an injunction against the file-sharing service. The injunction was subsequently suspended by the U.S. Ninth District Court of Appeals, but by early 2001, the Court of Appeals, too, would find the San Mateo-based company in breach of copyright law,5 a decision RIAA spokesperson Hillary Rosen would later proclaim proclaim a "clear victory for the creative content community and the legitimate online marketplace."

For hackers such as Stallman, the Napster business model is scary in different ways. The company's eagerness to appropriate time-worn hacker principles such as file sharing and communal information ownership, while at the same time selling a service based on proprietary software, sends a distressing mixed message. As a person who already has a hard enough time getting his own carefully articulated message into the media stream, Stallman is understandably reticent when it comes to speaking out about the company. Still, Stallman does admit to learning a thing or two from the social side of the Napster phenomenon.

"Before Napster, I thought it might be OK for people to privately redistribute works of entertainment," Stallman says. "The number of people who find Napster useful, however, tells me that the right to redistribute copies not only on a neighbor-to-neighbor basis, but to the public at large, is essential and therefore may not be taken away."

. . .

"It's a mistake to transfer answers from one thing to another," says Stallman, contrasting songs with software programs. "The right approach is to look at each type of work and see what conclusion you get."

When it comes to copyrighted works, Stallman says he divides the world into three categories. The first category involves "functional" works-e.g., software programs, dictionaries, and textbooks. The second category involves works that might best be described as "testimonial"-e.g., scientific papers and historical documents. Such works serve a purpose that would be undermined if subsequent readers or authors were free to modify the work at will. The final category involves works of personal expression-e.g., diaries, journals, and autobiographies. To modify such documents would be to alter a person's recollections or point of view-action Stallman considers ethically unjustifiable.

Of the three categories, the first should give users the unlimited right to make modified versions, while the second and third should regulate that right according to the will of the original author. Regardless of category, however, the freedom to copy and redistribute noncommercially should remain unabridged at all times, Stallman insists. If that means giving Internet users the right to generate a hundred copies of an article, image, song, or book and then email the copies to a hundred strangers, so be it. "It's clear that private occasional redistribution must be permitted, because only a police state can stop that," Stallman says. "It's antisocial to come between people and their friends. Napster has convinced me that we also need to permit, must permit, even noncommercial redistribution to the public for the fun of it. Because so many people want to do that and find it so useful."

When I ask whether the courts would accept such a permissive outlook, Stallman cuts me off.

"That's the wrong question," he says. "I mean now you've changed the subject entirely from one of ethics to one of interpreting laws. And those are two totally different questions in the same field. It's useless to jump from one to the other. How the courts would interpret the existing laws is mainly in a harsh way, because that's the way these laws have been bought by publishers."

The comment provides an insight into Stallman's political philosophy: just because the legal system currently backs up businesses' ability to treat copyright as the software equivalent of land title doesn't mean computer users have to play the game according to those rules. Freedom is an ethical issue, not a legal issue. "I'm looking beyond what the existing laws are to what they should be," Stallman says. "I'm not trying to draft legislation. I'm thinking about what should the law do? I consider the law prohibiting the sharing of copies with your friend the moral equivalent of Jim Crow. It does not deserve respect."
Aloisius
1 replies
21h52m

while at the same time selling a service based on proprietary software

Napster never sold anything. The business model was a plan to build a subscription service sometime in the future, but music labels wouldn't let us license their catalogs.

Source: worked at Napster

cmollis
0 replies
7h6m

yes.. that is correct (also worked there 2000-01). Bertelsmann offered 1B to settle the suit with the Labels (including the ones Bertelsmann owned, somewhat ironically) so the subscription service that we were building could go live, but this was rejected out of hand. After that, it was an existential moment for the entire Industry.. until Steve Jobs pitched what Apple had been working on (iTunes). My personal recollection was that probably at no other time would the Music Industry agree to the terms that Jobs wanted for the iTunes service, but there literally were no other viable options at the time so they agreed. you know the rest.

nuancebydefault
2 replies
1d

Buying music (singles or albums) was super expensive in 1999. It was unfair for listeners as well as artists.

Napster suddenly made it 'free'. I remember thinking, if CD's were not so ridiculously expensive and i could pick the songs on it, i would just buy them instead of spending money on data traffic time/bandwidth.

Today, we pay much less and the artists are still paid, while we can choose exactly what to listen to.

relaxing
0 replies
4h44m

the artists are still paid

No, no, no, no. Not at all compared to the glory days of the industry CD boom.

AlexandrB
0 replies
23h58m

The "long tail" artists are paid a lot less. Even if you listen to Frog Eyes all day, every day most of your Spotify subscription is going to Taylor Swift.

bradleyjg
2 replies
1d4h

Napster was a big part of it, credit where credit is due, but faster networks were the critical ingredient. I was in college at the time and it blew up on campus, but for my friends still in high school on DSL or even still POTS it was far less useful.

vlovich123
0 replies
1d3h

I was on 56k and Napster was the best and fastest thing around for a while, but more importantly had the largest library. Gnutella/Kazaa took over but only once Napster shut down and people started making their libraries available there. Torrents came in short order but that was more coupled to when broadband became much more widely adopted

skeeter2020
0 replies
1d3h

Universities & Colleges have been ground zero for establishing pretty much every major advancement, from the internet itself to Doom, file sharing and Facebook. Lots of resources combined with young, rich people with big ideas and energy who get the benefit of knowledge & wisdom while almost universially staking out a position in opposition to the established "way things are".

TheSmoke
2 replies
18h25m

so it's the year 2000, right. you got home from school, you're at 6th grade. saw your sweetheart and got fired up all day. summer's around the corner, it's been a pretty good day. a friend at school told you about napster, you download it and install it. you are amazed. you login to icq and wait for her to come online. in the meanwhile you search for some metallica and limp bizkit. it's insane! everything you search is there. you just have to be patient. you download nothing else matters, start playing it. she logs in and says hi, already missed you. and nothing else matters..

edvinbesic
0 replies
17h7m

poetry

aunty_helen
0 replies
14h43m

Limp bizkit dragon ball z music videos were one of my fondest memories from this period, I think peaking during the Kazaa era.

thr0waway001
1 replies
22h22m

I still remember how hard it was to find an mp3 on the Internet before Napster. It was awesome. And Winamp, which was quite possibly the greatest desktop music app ever IMO, truly complimented Napster.

theandrewbailey
0 replies
6h6m

I'm probably the last person still using Winamp.

simonw
1 replies
1d2h

Something I found fascinating about Napster at the time is that it was fiercely difficult to use... but it didn't matter, because what it gave people (access to ANY music) was so desirable that they would learn how to use it.

pea
0 replies
21h13m

One side effect of this I remember was that, for a little while, there was a blackmarket of buying MP3s on CD at car boots and flea markets. My dad came home once with a CD with all the Beatles songs. He had paid something like £15 and thought he'd got a deal of his life.

I also wonder which year it stopped being an acceptable Christmas present to give someone a burned CD.

p3rls
1 replies
1d1h

Back around in World of Warcraft around 2009ish, there was a rogue named Napster that someone invited to the guild I was in <Death and Taxes> as a casual/friend.

I never found out if he was actually the founder for real but I always wanted to add "geared up the founder of Napster in Sunwell" to my resume somehow.

eszed
0 replies
14h44m

<Salute> to Vanilla WoW. DnT were rockstars. 2009 was after the drama, and the migration to the Horde side, right?

I stopped playing around that time (it was distracting me from RL stuff, as well as removing some of the elements that made it such a great distraction), but the first five or so years of that game are really special memories.

mentos
1 replies
19h51m

Before Napster I remember the AOL warez scene where you could get a bot to send you 35 emails with the content broken up to download off AOLs servers.

pimlottc
0 replies
18h45m

    --÷^±/ Ràmϸàgè †øølz /\/\àss /\/\àilèr
    --÷^±/ Mass Mail in 5 minutes
    --÷^±/ Type [/AddMe] to get on or [/RemoveMe] to get off!

koolala
1 replies
1d1h

Music sparked the revolution, not Napster. People freely sharing what they love. Sing it! <3

mynameishere
0 replies
19h51m

Try that at a coffeeshop open mic night where they don't have a BMI license.

hi-v-rocknroll
1 replies
20h25m

For the younger folks: Napster arose when CDs and radio were the dominant official commercial distribution platforms for music. CD ripping into MP3s and portable music players drove the need to share them, and the internet was new, but needed a more scalable way to exchange them. Back in the day, it was mostly IRC channels, but these were slow and cumbersome. So Napster, Gnutella, and Hotline took off. These gradually gave way to eDonkey2000/eMule, KaZaA, and Limewire. These also then gave way to BitTorrent and overlay p2p apps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotline_Communications

lagniappe
0 replies
16h51m

I miss Hotline so much. Glad The Agency is still around.

NathanielBaking
1 replies
1d4h

Everything is free now That's what they say Everything I ever done Gonna give it away Someone hit the big score They figured it out That we're gonna do it anyway Even if it doesn't pay

Everything Is Free Song by Gillian Welch

wes-k
0 replies
16h39m

Just heard this song for the first time like a month ago, thanks for the reminder!

wordsinaline
0 replies
22h49m

The day I discovered Napster is the day I unplugged. Wait forever for my favorite song as a kid to come on the radio or MTV? No thanks, the future was Napster.

steve1977
0 replies
1d2h

I was putting a lot of effort into starting a career in the music business in the middle of the 90s. Thankfully I was not successful and „pivoted“ to IT in 1998.

sizzzzlerz
0 replies
1d4h

Still remember the very last day Napster was alive. It was an absolute feeding frenzy as thousands and thousands of people were attempting to download everything they could before it all went away. Napster was, basically, a giant middle finger to the record companies and their control over what got released and their ability to put out albums containing one or two songs people wanted and then stuffed with what ever crap they could shovel into it.

The music business changed that day.

salad-tycoon
0 replies
6h26m

Tangent, sorry, but every time I hear a modern sound now I hear it as music and it’s beautiful. I still remember being able to listen to the HDD and feel it. I would place my hand on the case when it was struggling and I felt like a horse whisperer. I may have given it a few affirmative words of encouragement.

olalonde
0 replies
18h10m

Outkast - Hey Ya.mp3

ofrzeta
0 replies
1d

That was awesome. You would think of an song and right there you could download it, even more obscure stuff. Information right at your fingertips or something like that.

mattmaroon
0 replies
1d3h

Man do I feel old now. I remember using that in college when it was brand new. These were in the days when Yahoo practically WAS the internet and Google was a scrappy upstart.

I remember trading mp3s on AOL before it. I remember how much effort it took to download an mp3 over a 56k modem. Every time my brother picked up the phone I had to start over. The first one I succesfully downloaded, after trying for what must have been days but felt like months, was Gettin' Jiggy Wit It and of course it turned out our 386 computer couldn't even really play an mp3 without stuttering.

I remember moving in with two friends, a block from campus, and putting a $2,500 Gateway computer (bought from the Gateway store in the strip mall, of course) on a credit card because we were going to split it three ways. You can probably guess how that ended up. Even though that was equivalent to about $5k today it was a midrange computer at best and, of course, was replaced a little over a year later. But, we did get broadband and it could play Starcraft and online poker just fine. Worth it!

I remember after Napster exploded, it had gotten bogged down with new traffic and they started offering multiple servers, and someone wrote some third-party software that let you switch between them at will until you could find the song you wanted without too terribly much wait.

I remember my first mp3 player, a Diamond Rio 500. It used a USB cord that, of course, had the pins reversed, so you couldn't just use any USB cord. It held about one hour of music, 1.5 if you bought a very expensive 32mb flash card. It ran for a week on one aaa battery. It cost almost $300, which would be like $500 today. God did I love that thing.

I remember the RIAA and MPAA suing file sharers. I remember lots of tech bros saying what idiots they were for trying to use the legal system to put the toothpaste back in the tube. I remember one particularly astute, well-known tech guy saying at a YC dinner (must have been 2007 or 2008) in response to a sneering question about it that not everyone who chooses a career outside of tech is an idiot, the people who run the media companies might know more about media than you, certainly understand that selling physical media's days are numered, and that what they were doing was really a delaying tactic while they figured out how to monetize content in the digital age. (The answer, it turned out, was things like Netflix and Spotify, but those were still a few years away. Netflix's first original content wasn't until 2012!)

I remember after Napster got sued into oblivion there were so many others. The toothpaste was out of the tube on file sharing. Limewire. Edonkey. Bittorrent. For every one they killed two more appeared. Fragmentation wasn't even an issue since everyone ran (and thus seeded) several.

Good nostalgia for a Saturday,.

kdtsh
0 replies
20h31m

In memory of Napster, whenever I use the search function of a file sharing network I am looking at for the first time, I search for ‘I Disappear’ by Metallica.

gonesilent
0 replies
20h14m

Never forget waste and Gnutella. Justin Frankel told Shawn Fanning Napster would get shutdown back when it had 50 users. Gnutella was made not to use a central server that could be shutdown.

gjs4786
0 replies
18h10m

A guy I know used to get music from me because he knew I had quite a large collection. I asked him why he was going through me when he could just download it himself, and he said, "I can't turn it up on my stereo without it getting all staticky." He had a car stereo worth more than some people's homes. The key difference between my collection and the collections he was referring to that sounded so staticky was that mine was archival, constantly maintained quality, and his was Napster 56kbps-128. And that is why torrents inflicted a lot of damage to a previously somewhat high-quality only scene. From that point on, it was like wading through a Goodwill bargain bin. Thankfully, it has rebounded in the time since.

dclowd9901
0 replies
1d

I think the biggest thing Napster did was get everyone onto a computer. I don’t know if folks here remember, but before Napster, desktop computers at home were largely the destination for folks who worked at home, nerdy kids or the occasional school research. AOL changed _some_ of that but not as profoundly as Napster did. Not everyone had a reason to socialize online but everyone loved free music.

I remember a friend of mine coming to _me_ telling me about Napster. He was definitely a lot more socially adept than me and I knew he didn’t hang out on computers much so it was quite the shock that he knew about this thing that, by all accounts, was quite nerdy.

dboreham
0 replies
1d4h

I briefly worked there. Like three Scaramuccis.

chinathrow
0 replies
1d3h

Never forget their bug when they only transferred 99% of the MP3 you wanted. Good times.

chinathrow
0 replies
1d2h

Napster was awesome but Audiogalaxy was way better: it just worked and had a remote interface which was magical at the time.

cactusplant7374
0 replies
17h26m

I am still using Soulseek.

bigtex
0 replies
1d2h

I remember having 384KB symmetrical DSL in mid 2000 from Northpoint Communications, who would go out of business a few months later. I basically had business class service to my apartment because that it all they could provide, so I didn't complain. Obviously one of the first things I tested was Napster on my Bondi Blue iMac B computer and man could you download music so fast and easily!

_obviously
0 replies
16h31m

In the 2010's, tech companies got together and tried to remove files from the user space.

AcylicUnicorn
0 replies
23h50m

When I look at the personalities who made a name for themselves in corporate piracy.. err.. file sharing, I keep noticing some of the people who've contributed a lot to the current suckage in tech.