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Daylight Computer – New 60fps e-paper tablet

boochiboo12
473 replies
1d

Hi yall, founder of Daylight here.

Happy to answer any questions you have. Long time lurker, so this is pretty cool to finally take part :)

I made this because I wanted the eye-strain free and minimalist qualities of my kindle/Eink applied to so much more of what I do on a computer.

Lack of speed and ghosting felt like it made traditional Eink impossible to do most computing tasks. So we focused on making the most Paperlike epaper display that has no ghosting and high refresh rate - 60 to 120fps. We started working on this in 2018.

We developed our own custom epaper display tech we call LivePaper. We focused on solving the tradeoffs RLCDs traditionally have - around reflectance %, metallic-look / not Paperlike enough, viewing angle, white state, rainbow mura, parallax, resolution, size, lack of quality backlight, etc.

First proof of concept in late 2021, and then it took us 2.5 years to get it into production.

And we built a whole android tablet around it.

It’s essentially our attempt at making a remarkable tablet on steroids / kindle on steroids. Definitely some trade offs, but on the whole we think it’s worth it. (& on twitter a bunch of early customers seem to think so too)

Note: it’s 60fps epaper, not off the shelf Eink. We spent years developing what we think is the best epaper display in the world and it’s exclusively manufactured by our display factory in Japan.

There’s still many cases where traditional Eink is going to be better (bistability, viewing angle, white state color, etc), but we feel for more general purpose computers you can code on and do google docs on and do fast multitouch amongst a thousand other things, the speed and lack of ghosting totally makes it worth it.

Think of it as a Godzilla sized pebble watch with a decade of improvement

Or think of it as a gameboy advanced, advanced

alemanek
60 replies
18h42m

Adding an additional comment here for a little extra visibility. I would absolutely love, like really love, a USB-C portrait monitor version of this. If I could just plug this in to my existing laptop and use it for reading specs, technical docs, …etc that would be amazing.

Android tablet is a tough sell for my employer due to compliance, security, and such. So buying one of those for work use would take like a year minimum gathering all the necessary approvals and likely would still get denied by someone. But, a dumb monitor with no real OS I can expense that without approval. just a heads up to my boss really to say I am buying this and here is why.

I know you are a small company so have to pick your battles. But, maybe something to consider down the road.

EDIt: forgot to say, congrats on the launch. Looks like a great product.

noduerme
16 replies
15h29m

I second this. I really enjoy reading and writing on an Onyx e-ink tab, and I like the full Android functionality, but I can never use it for work or even for personal email logins, because I don't trust their custom Android build.

I would be somewhat more inclined to trust Daylight than Onyx, but any custom OS is too potentially vulnerable to backdoors for my use cases.

Something like this that you could load your own Linux flavor onto, or simply this tech as a monitor / drawing pad, I would drop the money in a heartbeat.

bloopernova
4 replies
3h21m

Is there such a thing as a tablet that accepts video input? In other words, use it as a tablet, then connect a mini hdmi or whatever and it turns into a monitor. Disconnect, and it's a tablet again.

dspillett
0 replies
2h18m

There are certainly some e-ink devices that are able to do this, the TechnologyConnections fellow did a couple of videos that cover it, amongst other things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NfX0vlCa4k#t=15m50 & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D38dcArwCNc

Though he is using a Boox product and I'm wary of them over the GPL violation thing: as well as the general “they'd piss & moan and send the lawyers round if someone took their stuff and used it unlicensed” hypocrisy, the paranoid cynic in me thinks there is something they want to hide in their customisations (hooks for calling home or some such).

Also, those clips are a few years old now so some of the problems he was having may have been ironed out in newer devices & software updates.

Another option is running a VMC client on any tablet that isn't walled off so that you can't: there are a number of VNC servers that create a hidden virtual screen and mirror that so the connecting client because the extra screen.

0x457
0 replies
2h17m

I use a hdmi capture dongle with iPad to turn it into a monitor. Not quite what you want, but as an option.

tadfisher
2 replies
14h21m

As long as the bootloader isn't locked, porting mainline Linux shouldn't be as bad as with E-ink devices. Here's a Ubuntu Touch port to another Helios G99 device [1]; I really hope the RLCD doesn't require host driver support.

[1]: https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/device/vidofnir/

rjzzleep
1 replies
6h23m

You need USB-C DisplayPort (DP Alt Mode). Unfortunately it's not a software limitation oftentimes, most of the times it's a hardware design limitation. I guess Onyx figured that they can have two different product lines and milk both, as opposed to what they used to have, which was an HDMI port on the higher end models.

bluGill
0 replies
5h43m

Best would be DP alt mode. However software to send video over regular USB data lines is fairly common and reportedly works okay so long as you have drivers (which generally are not supported to the next Windows release) and are not trying something too heavy - not good enough for games but often good enough for the office type work the OP is asking for.

RossBencina
0 replies
8h44m

Good, but definitely not 60fps or ghosting free. Source: using one right now.

fsflover
1 replies
11h41m

Something like this that you could load your own Linux flavor onto

Did you consider PineNote?

anddam
0 replies
11h10m

Note tha its production was put to stop (last year IIRC) with reserve to possibly start it again. AFAICT market reception was lukewarm at best and it was not financially viable.

I would have loved one, but I guess leaving the development of a proper OS to the community is not going to land mass adoption.

Average Joe needs a device to buy and use, not to buy and tinker with.

t0bia_s
0 replies
5h35m

Same here. I use degoogled Onyx Boox for notes, reading books, sheet music, sketching... Barely connect to internet, beacuse I don't trust their OS and apps. Apps are actually quite good (NeoReader).

askura
0 replies
4h55m

I would love it just as a screen for things like Slack or Discord as I'm on the move a lot :D

andai
0 replies
3h42m

How much customization is needed for a device like this?

Drivers?

I'd think most of it would come down to a custom launcher. Though I guess they also modify the UI?

robsh
8 replies
17h59m

When plugged in to a computer, it would be cool if it reverts to being a smart display with touch screen. It could still charge and transfer files too maybe? I don’t know enough about USB-C, but I really wish devices could do dual function like this.

al_borland
2 replies
15h15m

When venturing into the file transfer territory, a lot of employers are going to veto the device over security concerns. Just like they wouldn’t want employees plugging in random USB drives found on the street.

IggleSniggle
1 replies
5h4m

Or USB drives period. My former employer didn't allow cell phones or really any device that could connect things from the outside. We had the Internet, but it all had to go through their own managed pipes.

Totally fine to bring in a monitor though. Not sure if that would still be true today, given the connectivity of things. I bet you could still bring in a monitor, but you'd risk needing to prove that there was no way it could do anything other than be a monitor.

al_borland
0 replies
3h2m

I think there would be better luck with a dedicated monitor port (HDMI, DisplayPort, DVI, VGA), rather than a USB-C monitor, depending on how hard things are locked down.

dead5ea
1 replies
15h43m

It's feasible: a couple of Lenovo Yoga Tabs do this* running Android 13+ until plugged in by an HDMI out (which I believe works with an adapter to USB-C). Ex: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/tablets/android-tablets/lenov... *(Not touch-enabled in display mode, I believe.)

I have a Yoga Tab 13 (the more interesting sibling of the P-series) I regularly use as a standalone tablet and external laptop monitor - usually lives in the same bag. It's been perfectly seamless for me whether using a PC or a smartphone (surprisingly so). (I believe it shipped w Android 12.)

Of course, it's not epaper - but it is technically feasible.

djtango
0 replies
11h4m

Can you run Linux on this yoga tab?

Talinx
1 replies
17h43m

The Minisforum V3 is a tablet that can also be used as a monitor via USB-C, so definitely possible. I wish more tablets would work that way.

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS
0 replies
15h14m

There's the spacedesk app that can do this with Android and Windows. Works fairly well.

walterbell
0 replies
14h31m

USB-C iPads can act as monitors via HDMI adapter + various apps.

hallman76
5 replies
5h21m

Android tablet is a tough sell for my employer due to compliance, security, and such

From a compliance POV what's an acceptable alternative? Would some unix variant be any more palatable?

mbreese
2 replies
5h16m

In some industries, anything that “computes” or has a data connection is strictly regulated. If data can move in or out, it needs to be verified.

So, if you want to avoid those validation steps, it would need to be a dumb device without an OS. Like the parent said - just a monitor.

ngneer
1 replies
5h1m

I agree with the sentiment, but it is harder and harder to find truly "dumb" devices anymore. USB has a complicated (and vulnerable) firmware stack. Monitors have hackable on screen display controllers. Unless you want to go back to VGA... Just saying...

https://github.com/redballoonshenanigans/monitordarkly

mbreese
0 replies
3h16m

In this context, I think of two things: hackable spying and data exfiltration.

If a device runs processes that can be hacked so that it can report on your activities. Capturing the display or keyboard input would be examples. This generally requires an active network connection, but not always. Because this device runs a version of Android, it’s potentially hackable (I’m not saying it isn’t secure, just that it would have to be validated).

Second, if a device can store or transfer data, it would be possible to send confidential documents out the door without knowing about it. Because this has on-board storage (and is small), it has this issue too.

A monitor, even if its OSD/firmware was hacked, is much less likely to be able to do either of these things.

There are industries that have real concerns about data privacy and security. In these cases, the dumber a device, generally the better.

panzagl
0 replies
4h28m

I would think the main thing would be no network hardware and ideally no network stack. After that, a minimum of local storage- nothing persistent outside of firmware, and certainly nothing that would provide any type of file system visible to the host computer.

milesward
0 replies
5h15m

What about a firmware flash that nukes the Android part and makes it behave as a display, which hopefully you can flash back to your OS if policy or usecase changes?

sersi
4 replies
18h22m

I was about to write the same comment but you expressed it much better. I would also be happy if it could be both an android tablet but have a monitor mode where it just becomes a monitor.

mdhen
2 replies
8h26m

You can use VNC to make an android tablet into a 2nd monitor. The latency isnt good enough for playing games or anything but for web pages and documents it works great.

sersi
0 replies
8h10m

I've tried that before but the latency bothers me a lot even when typing, etc.

KronisLV
0 replies
7h0m

I've recently been using a piece of software called RustDesk, which so far feels pretty performant, better than VNC, RDP, TeamViewer, RealVNC etc.: https://rustdesk.com/

You can host a relay inside of a Docker container if you need it as well and it even supports AV1. There's also password auth for each device and permission control.

They have a mobile app too, though I haven't used it as much as the desktop variety, might be worth a shot.

primis
0 replies
16h43m

Plus one on this. Would be amazing if there was a display mode possible or just a variant with a usb to edp board inside without the android tablet bits / battery (even if it meant losing the wacom digitizer in the process)

alemanek
0 replies
6h52m

Thanks for the link. I am actually just starting my research into that one and options from Dasung.

This is one of those things that I didn’t know I needed/wanted until this HN post. But, I get bad headaches from eye strain and a have a heavy text based workflow so definitely in that target market.

natsucks
2 replies
18h0m

Because it allows Android apps, might there be some screen sharing utility that would allow it to be used as a 2nd monitor?

rovr138
0 replies
17h47m

Maybe. But for some employers, it's only their devices. Which would still mean going through the process above.

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS
0 replies
15h12m

spacedesk (sadly Windows only)

kernal
1 replies
3h42m

Android tablet is a tough sell for my employer due to compliance, security, and such.

I can only imagine how much tougher a Windows sell would be to your employer.

omegabravo
0 replies
3h38m

Their employer likely has absolute control over their Windows install. My personal Windows laptop isn't allowed on the corporate network either.

unsupp0rted
0 replies
3h19m

(adding my voice) I would buy a dumb monitor of this without thinking. Name your price Daylight team.

pockmockchock
0 replies
11h49m

shut up and take my money.

mywacaday
0 replies
2h38m

Does it support a separate work profile that can be managed by the Ivanti Mobile@Work app?

kadushka
0 replies
12h54m

If you can make it bigger for use as a regular monitor, I'd pay good money for it.

harel
0 replies
4h51m

This. Absolutely. A second paper like display would be perfect.

f1shy
0 replies
12h1m

I would also buy without thinking a mini monitor, but no so much a tablet. Please think about launching it.

enkay
0 replies
2h13m

If I could use this as an external monitor plugged into my MacBook I would have bought one on the spot.

cies
0 replies
4h52m

I would absolutely love, like really love, a USB-C portrait monitor version of this.

Would this not be better solved with some remote desktop protocol (RDP or VNC) than with USB? Then you can use it with wifi and just walk off with the device.

aspyct
0 replies
6h50m

Oh hell yeah!

anddam
0 replies
11h9m

If I could just plug this in to my existing laptop and use it

Or to my existing phone.

__MatrixMan__
0 replies
16h37m

This doesn't scratch the employer itch, but I think you could use an android VNC viewer app and then run a VNC server targeting a small vertical monitor attached to your workstation.

I imagine pulling up the document that I want to read, putting it on the correct monitor, and then grabbing the tablet and taking it to my hammock for some heads down reading time.

Zamiel_Snawley
0 replies
16h37m

Another plus one from me. I don’t have the same workplace policies, but even for personal use I’d prefer a ‘plain’ monitor.

FlipFloopDev
0 replies
1h6m

This is actually what I was hoping to make this summer...

99catmaster
0 replies
37m

+1

jimmysong
59 replies
20h46m

As one of the beta testers, let me just say that I really like this device. It's very different than a kindle, kobo or reMarkable in that the refresh rate really makes a big difference. When I show this device to people, I show them how quickly zooming in on a PDF is. It's way faster and more responsive than any e-ink screen and it's way less addicting than the typical laptop, phone or tablet.

I'm attempting to make this device my main driver over the next few months and while the ecosystem isn't exactly mature yet, most android apps just work out of the box and I've found myself doing a lot more reading, either through an e-reading app (Lithium), PDF reader or Instapaper. I have X, Primal, Telegram and many other apps installed, but I don't go to them nearly as much. The device really is a lot more human centered and it makes for a much more intentional device.

card_zero
45 replies
19h27m

Why did you say "less addicting"?

sodality2
24 replies
19h21m

One common psychological trick addictive social media uses is high saturation color, as it causes our monkey brains to enjoy it slightly more. This is monotone and I’d assume that’s a relevant feature point

wzyboy
14 replies
16h55m

On Pixel phone, there is a Digital Wellbeing setting that can turn your screen into Greyscale mode during bedtime. It is said to discourage the use of social networks and helps you sleep better.

cypherpunks01
12 replies
16h35m

I'd recommend giving grayscale mode a try not only during bedtime, but all the time! My Pixel has been set this way for a couple months and it has decreased my mindless phone usage by simply making the phone more boring overall, without any new device or major sacrifices.

I became concerned that I'd turn it off when I temporarily needed color and forget to turn it back on, so instead I used Tasker to listen for L-R shake action and make that temporarily disable grayscale mode for 20 secs (in case I specifically decide I want to look at color in a photo or disambiguate something from grayscale). Works decently well, I can explain the Tasker steps if anyone else is interested.

soulofmischief
2 replies
15h39m

On my Pixel using GrapheneOS, I can go into Accessibility settings and enable gesture support for toggling Grayscale support, without the need for Tasker. I'm unsure how other Android ROMs stack up but I imagine stock Pixel has this setting.

It's a great feature, just swipe up from the bottom with two fingers whenever I need color.

ohmyiv
0 replies
11h34m

I'm unsure how other Android ROMs stack up

I'm _almost_ certain that comes with any Android ROM from 9.0 up as a standard accessibility setting. All my Samsung devices have had it for a few years.

cypherpunks01
0 replies
4h57m

Huh, didn't realize that was there! Works on stock Pixel, you're right, definitely useful feature to have

hobscoop
2 replies
7h45m

This would eliminate the failure mode of my grayscale attempts. I would appreciate knowing the configuration steps.

cypherpunks01
1 replies
5h38m

No root needed, but you first need to grant Tasker the WRITE_SECURE_SETTINGS permission, see: https://tasker.joaoapps.com/userguide/en/help/ah_secure_sett...

I granted it via ADB using the command line listed, but the other method with app might work too. If you don't have ADB, It's very easy to install by just downloading the right sdk for your OS, and you run the included ADB binary via command line while your phone is plugged in via USB, and USB debugging is enabled (which is an android developer setting).

Set your Android accessibility color correction type to grayscale if you don't have that already. The below Tasker action simply toggles it off and on.

Tasker config is-

Configure a Shake Left-Right event trigger (I recommend sensitivity 'Very Low' and Duration 'Long' to avoid accidental triggers)

Configure a 3-step action following the trigger:

1. Custom Setting

    Type: Secure
    Name: accessibility_display_daltonizer_enabled
    Value: 0
2. Wait action (I set to 20 sec)

3. Custom Setting

    Type: Secure
    Name: accessibility_display_daltonizer_enabled
    Value: 1
Set the Collision Handling on the task gear/settings to "Abort Existing Task", so that you can extend the color lifetime by shaking the phone again.

Of course, once you have this action in Tasker, you can use any trigger to turn it on or off, like opening a particular app, turning it on when you are only at home or away, etc.

Works pretty well for me, there is one slight issue where some type of android display layout refresh occurs when the color toggle happens, which sometimes refreshes the interface you are on in a slightly annoying way. I tolerate it, it's ok, maybe setting a longer wait period would make this occur less often.

If these steps don't work / too confusing, try using the really great accessibility gesture support setting mentioned in a reply, instead or in addition: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40462366

FYI John Dalton was a scientist who pioneered color blindness research among many other fields, so his name is everywhere in color correction settings apparently.

freedomben
0 replies
1h12m

Amazing, thank you!

freedomben
1 replies
16h13m

I'd love to do the same thing, so if you have time to explain the Tasker steps I'd definitely make use of them :-)

albert_e
1 replies
16h3m

used Tasker to listen for L-R shake action and make that temporarily disable grayscale mode for 20 secs

Wonderful

I am using gray scale on personal phone permanently, but avoided that on work phone as I might need to discern color in some work documents or screenshares.

What you describe seems like a perfect solution but does it work on all Android phones?

If you could throw some more light on the steps ... appreciate that!

cypherpunks01
0 replies
5h34m

I do think it will work on non-Pixel phones, but you do need to enable Secure Settings for Tasker, which probably can be locked down by Mobile Device Management or other admin control methods that a work device could have.

Listed my config in a sibling comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40465686

nullderef
0 replies
4h19m

I've been doing the same for a few months, as I wanted to get an eink phone but wasn't sure how annoying it'd be. Although there's some limitations, like charts or video calls, I got used to it quite quickly in the end. Really recommended, you can just enable it in display settings (at least on my Samsung).

kqr
0 replies
11h27m

Thanks for the recommendation! I don't have a big mindless phone usage problem but I'll give it a shot anyway and see what happens.

quaintdev
0 replies
15h24m

That's Android thing not just Pixel thing

jsheard
4 replies
18h15m

Most devices let you enable a monochrome filter and optionally invert the image somewhere in the accessibility settings, for what it's worth. You don't need a special device just for that.

selcuka
3 replies
17h53m

Most devices let you [...]

But nobody does that, because we love addictions.

imp0cat
1 replies
13h22m

This.

The screen should slowly desaturate color and eventually switch to b/w when the phone detects mindless scrolling automatically. ;)

cowsaymoo
0 replies
12h44m

Lool like each post you scroll desaturates the screen by 2%

dash2
0 replies
11h59m

I do it!

snypher
2 replies
18h19m

I often use ctrl-win-c shortcut for black and white mode in Windows, it's great to rest the eyes.

webprofusion
0 replies
12h20m

That's awesome, I had no idea that was a feature, using it now!

lloeki
0 replies
11h40m

That, and at night a LED device is literally putting a flashlight in direct line of sight, which does not help in making one sleepy (even with night mode stuff cutting some blue light it's still a flashlight, albeit tinted) so more potential for extended late hours doomscrolling. OLED is kind of better than LCD but still.

Comparatively eink relies on ambient lighting (backlighted ones have it backwards in that regard)

coldtea
17 replies
19h19m

For starters, it doesn't come with the whole "light show", it's black and white.

"Minimalist" types often suggest turning your smartphone into B&W mode (usually an accessibility setting), precisely to reduce temptation to watch videos, social media, and such.

card_zero
16 replies
18h38m

Elsewhere in this thread I see comments that mention "low distraction", "calmer", and something about iPhones frying kids' brains.

This all looks like snobbery to me, based on the association of monochrome paper with novels and writing and intellectual pursuits. In the 18th century we were scared that novels would fry the brains of young women, but times have changed and now it's iPhones that are sinful, and monochrome displays are virtuous, apparently.

I think I might be going off the idea of e-ink, as a result. But my particular interest is nostalgia for the illustrators of the 80s. I would like to see a full-color portrait format 16-inch e-ink display or tablet. Preferably as addicting as possible, because outside of actual pharmacology that word just means "fun".

roughly
12 replies
18h21m

By way of an experiment - set your phone screen to black & white (in iOS, settings -> accessibility -> display -> color filters -> [on] -> grayscale, on android, settings -> accessibility -> color & motion -> color correction -> [on] -> grayscale), and leave it that way for a day of normal use. Then, turn it off, and note how you react to the change.

Folks aren't calling it calmer because they're trying to look erudite, they're calling it calmer because modern applications put a lot of work into capturing your attention, and color is one of the tools they use (quite aggressively) to do so. Disabling color on the device isn't some way to look snobbish, it's a way to reduce the number of ways the device and applications are attempting to grab your attention.

hollerith
3 replies
14h36m

Since IIRC Shortcuts is actually pretty clunky, it's probably easier to use Control Center to toggle grayscale, which is possible after you add the control named "accessibility shortcuts" using {settings > control center}. That is what I use.

(And on Gnome, I use and recommend the following: https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/4012/gnome-bedtime/)

roughly
2 replies
13h19m

On iOS, you can also set up the “accessibility shortcut” (settings -> accessibility -> accessibility shortcut), which lets you triple-click the home button to enable it.

zimpenfish
0 replies
10h11m

You can also have the back tap (double or triple) run the accessibility shortcut.

I use triple-back for "grayscale" (because I found myself double-tapping the back accidentally all the time.)

StephenCanis
0 replies
6h58m

Thank you so much for this! Not having to dig through the settings to toggle B&W makes it much more workable.

dash2
0 replies
11h57m

You can also create automations to turn grayscale back off for apps that need it. I have ones for maps, photos and whatsapp (since people send a lot of pics in my group). They run when the app is activated/deactivated.

card_zero
4 replies
17h49m

Just ignore them? Don't use manipulative apps?

I suppose for some people this is an issue and they genuinely want a physical solution in order to stop habitually doing things they don't like, like Odysseus wanting to be tied to the mast to avoid the Sirens.

I can predict how my behavior would change if I tried this: I'd be pissed off because you'd ruined my game of Heroes III (1999). And Brogue would be slightly less pretty. Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead would be much the same, and news sites and coding wouldn't change much. So my reaction would just be "this is gloomy", it's not like I need freeing from a hypnotic spell.

ohmyiv
1 replies
11h5m

Hmmm..the way you're arguing against makes it seem like you're being manipulated. Maybe you have an issue too?

If you don't want to use it then don't. I'm not even sure why you're in here arguing against it.

People often believe that "other people can be persuaded, but not me. I’m the smart one. It’s only those other people over there that can’t control their thought."

https://www.wired.com/story/our-minds-have-been-hijacked-by-...

card_zero
0 replies
53m

I'm not even sure why you're in here arguing against it.

To recap, somebody mentioned addiction, to colors presumably, as a reason to prefer a monochrome display, and I thought that was ridiculous. So I said so. People didn't react well.

I've read a little part of the article. I don't much like the giant tech and social media companies. However, when I come to phrases like this:

hijacking of the human mind

hooking kids to send messages back and forth

I can't bear to continue wading through it. This is just moral panic. A marginal effect of keeping an audience's attention - sometimes - for a little while - is exaggerated by people who (again, like me) dislike the big tech companies, and described like an actual addictive drug. This seems dishonest. But perhaps they actually believe it. No doubt there have been studies that tell them what they want to hear.

But yeah, moral panic, or maybe virtue signalling, or tribalism - something like that is going on here, and realism suffers, and I don't like that, so I said something. I don't know if anybody appreciated me saying something, because maybe it was off-message, but I'm saying it anyway. I'm not claiming to be super-smart, I'm generally a foolish person, and I'm getting a lot of veiled insults here, I suppose because I pissed on your oddly monochrome strawberries.

roughly
0 replies
17h11m

Again, I'd encourage you to actually give it a try. It's quick, and I think it would give you some insights into the things people are actually saying and why they're saying them.

coldtea
0 replies
11h25m

it's not like I need freeing from a hypnotic spell.

Well, that's exactly what many social media addicts do need.

adriand
0 replies
17h44m

I had no idea this was possible, wow, very cool! I turned this on and I’m going to try it out. I kind of love the idea of a grayscale screen and I had no clue I owned one already!

manoweb
0 replies
14h22m

I agree with you that people tend to grossly overestimate the bad effects of a new technology. For example my kids cringe if they catch me or my wife looking at YouTube shorts. My son - that has complete, unlimited access to his gaming PC, installed a Firefox extension to block YouTube shorts. I think the problem will self-regulate at some point.

However I made my iPhone black and white as suggested by others and I love it, I believe I'll keep it like this for a few days because it looks so cool. We will see if it leads to less usage.

fastasucan
0 replies
4h32m

I think I might be going off the idea of e-ink, as a result.

The main benefit of e-ink isn't what you mentioned in the post, imo, it is that it is great to read with in everything from direct sunlight to darkness, which is less straining for the eyes.

Having something mainly for reading is also a nice thing for us that easily get distracted away from that.

coldtea
0 replies
18h16m

This all looks like snobbery to me, based on the association of monochrome paper with novels and writing and intellectual pursuits

You say it like it is a bad thing. It is associated with novels and writing and intellectual pursuits, because it's less suitable for video/graphics focused social media, videos, and games.

but times have changed and now it's iPhones that are sinful, and monochrome displays are virtuous, apparently.

False analogy aside, we already know TVs and then smartphones are addictive in a way older media never were. We already have studies about that, and we already have statistics about the dire consequences on teenagers and adults in many metrics.

So, your argument is a little like saying:

"In the 1940s and 50s we were scared that weed would fry the brains of young kids, but times have changed and now it's meth that is dangerous, and weed is ok, apparently".

Well, meth is hella dangerous, and that's a fact, even if they overblew the danger of weed in the 1940s.

petepete
0 replies
7h4m

It's an American term that means 'less addictive.'

jimmysong
0 replies
15h52m

For one, images and videos are a lot less visually stimulating. Everything is in black and white, and though those all render fine, they're just not as interesting as they would be in full color. So instead of doomscrolling Youtube shorts, I find myself doing more reading, particularly of books since the epub reading experience is fantastic and causes much less eye strain.

Tor3
2 replies
18h31m

I was playing at an outdoor concert recently - last year I suffered from the combination of paper sheet music + wind.. so this year I used an Android tablet in portrait mode where I could flicker to the next one relatively easily with a finger (no fancy bluetooth pedal control or anything). Me, wind: 1-0. This particular tablet was actually visible in full daylight when I turned the screen light to its maximum.

After this I've been thinking how nice a Kindle-style display would be (not to mention battery), the more sunlight the better, kind of. A Kindle is too small, and well.. I know there are others (that Remarkable someone mentioned), but..

What about this Daylight one? Overkill maybe?

t0bia_s
0 replies
5h29m

Onyx Boox Air 3 10.3’ is great for sheet music! I'm using it and enjoy getting away from ton of papers.

Get non C version with better contrast ratio and longer battery life.

KennyBlanken
0 replies
10h42m

Kobo makes an eight inch e-reader for $270. That's about two inches larger than even a fairly large e-ink reader. It has hardware page turn buttons, I think, but the screen can also be tapped.

Or the Boox Note 3c, which has a 10" screen (don't go for the color screen, the contrast ratio is much worse), also has a front light, $400: https://shop.boox.com/products/noteair3 with the added advantage of running Android 12, so you can install a sheetmusic specific app.

Or there's this $400 transflexive display android tablet, B&W only (not even grayscale) and no backlight:

https://goodereader.com/blog/reviews/unboxing-the-hisense-q5...

vaylian
1 replies
4h56m

What is your experience with writing code on the device? Does the grayscale impact syntax highlighting?

jimmysong
0 replies
2h50m

Yea, grayscale definitely impacts the syntax highlighting, as many of the colors end up pretty dark.

It works, though, and I have coded a bit on it. My only criticism would be that the copy-pasting is a little clunky, at least with JuiceSSH. Maybe other apps would be better at it.

unshavedyak
1 replies
4h8m

What's the experience like with using it as a Terminal coding app? I'm super interested in using this to SSH into a home machine and programming from this.

How viable is that?

Though even if the device works excellently for that, i'm not sure it would _feel_ good due to it not being a laptop. My wife's ipad pro for example is not nearly as comfy as my mac pro, due to the properly balanced weight of it all.

Still, super tempting to try this.. i've wanted this for so long.

jimmysong
0 replies
2h51m

I've got JuiceSSH set up and use the device as a thin client. Coding is a little different since you don't get the terminal colors that you normally use for syntax highlighting. Still, it's functional, and I can do it, mostly using a bluetooth keyboard to do so.

paholg
1 replies
17h41m

It says you can install any Android app. So I can just like browse websites in Firefox? How is that experience?

jimmysong
0 replies
15h54m

I'm typing on a Daylight computer on Firefox right now with the brightness turned to 0 so it's only reflecting light. It's very similar to the tablet experience for Hacker News, just with less color, so it's not as straining to the eye.

kevin_thibedeau
1 replies
17h57m

way less addicting than the typical laptop

Xorg is still able to do 1bpp. Windows has a grayscale filter. Don't know if you can still get to render dithered B&W.

p_l
0 replies
9h44m

a lot of applications (especially GTK3/4) will go buggy if they open at all on 1bpp display. Generally anything that does not report TrueColor RGBA8888 or RGBx8888 as first visual will trip them up.

gdevenyi
1 replies
7h19m

Is there a good app for note taking like on remarkable?

jimmysong
0 replies
6h54m

There's a stylus that comes with it and lots of note-taking apps. I particularly like the ability to take notes directly in PDFs, which for technical papers can be very helpful.

stefanha
30 replies
21h43m

I have a hard time getting a sense of what the display is really like from the website and the embedded video (it cuts too quickly, uses depth of field shots of the tablet, etc).

Given that this is all about a new display, it would be nice to show a more pragmatic demo video right upfront. A demo that gives a clear look at how the display behaves with respect to lighting, reflections, animation, touch screen, etc. That's what I would look for when deciding to buy this.

Maybe YouTube reviewers will end up providing this information...

floundy
15 replies
21h29m

The lack of any 3rd party hands-on video reviews was the biggest red flag that halted any consideration I had to purchase this product.

boochiboo12
13 replies
21h10m

they're coming!! but i appreciate your skepticism until there's more video proof, i am the same

too many broken promises by other tech cos, i understand we have to earn your trust

there should be more video reviews coming out on twitter though from early customers / testers

.. if i wasnt drowning in launch, id try to find you a link, if anyone else could help !

meisenhus
8 replies
12h26m

Publishing a sped-up video without telling us that it's sped up really killed all my trust I had in you guys. Seriously, what were you thinking? Your main and only selling point is the speed. So much so that that needs to compensate for lack of other features like resolution and color. And then you open the door to cheating accusations? You can now 100x say that it's really fast and no ghosting and all that, but your ethics seem to really believe it was no big deal, so at each turn down the line I'll have to question, perhaps here they also didn't think it's a big deal to pull some dirty trick?

So disappointed. :(

robxorb
5 replies
6h45m

Killed my trust also, "drowning in launch" is no excuse for not rectifying this immediately.

Posting a real-time video right now would take five minutes and clear up all this bad publicity right when they need to.

robxorb
1 replies
5h6m

I've seen that page - it has 16 videos and it's unclear which are sped up, by how much, and which aren't. Some look sped up to my eye, and even if they aren't, I simply can't trust they aren't because they've shown they won't inform me so.

This is a super bad look for a new product offering whose entire killer feature and market differentiation is based on its supposed blazing speed.

Posting ANY video that's sped up, without clearly labelling by exactly how much, and when (eg, with a "3x speed" text overlay as is almost standard on internet video), is a huge mistake introducing a product differentiating on speed.

jasonlotito
0 replies
3h14m

It's documentation. Sure, they could add the speed of the videos, but honestly, I want it optimized for showing me how to use the feature, not serving something it's not: marketing material.

Apple does this as well in it's documentation, and no one complains. Lots of companies do this. So, complaining about the documentation being optimized as documentation is silly in my eyes.

cdrini
1 replies
3h32m

The page where the videos are from isn't meant to be marketing material. It's a documentation page for people who already have the tablet -- the page says "Welcome to Your Daylight Computer". I personally have no qualms if some of the videos there are sped up, and it has no bearing on my trust of the company.

If you want the promotional videos actually advertising/backing the display claims, check out the main website: https://daylightcomputer.com/product . If you do find evidence that the video there is sped up, I agree with you it's a bad look. But the videos look pretty clearly not sped up based on the human motion.

Regardless there will be third party videos popping on YouTube soon, as the parent comment says.

robxorb
0 replies
1h39m

Many of us seem to have ended up at that documentation page out of exasperation, as we couldn't find video examples on the main page.

It appears that portrait vs landscape on their main page, on mobile at least, conceals that promo video (which does appear to show realtime footage).

If you happen to visit in the wrong orientation (or whatever other variables hide the video) and see claims of speed, but conspicuously absent proof, and then discover quietly sped-up videos buried in the docs, it all starts to feel scammy.

Given e-ink has a history of all kinds of shenanigans, and given I believe this company launched then unlaunched this product a few weeks ago (setting videos to private), it's not surprising some of us are on a hair-trigger.

Anyway, having seen decent enough video now, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. If this is for real, it will be of huge benefit to many who struggle with artificial light sensitivity, and I'm sure they'll do well.

cdrini
1 replies
6h30m

For future reference, if you're going to make a claim like this, seriously include a link. It's unclear what video you're talking about.

Assuming you're talking about the link to a video posted by another commenter further down ( https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=mikhailt ), that video was posted out of context. There are a lot of other videos on that documentation page which are not sped up. See here: https://daylightco.gorgias.help/en-US#article-493382

The video in question, the video under "ereader on steroids", appears to be sped up, my guess is because the purpose of the video is to summarize the functionality. A "3x" label would be nice, but let's not jump to accusations! That video isn't at all in a context where it seems likely meant to mislead. You can view other videos on that page that are in 1x.

Hendrikto
2 replies
12h26m

What do you do with all the time you save on capitals and punctuation?

mdp2021
0 replies
9h35m

What do you do with all the time you save

if i wasnt drowning in launch
MattRix
0 replies
6h4m

To answer this question as someone who often writes messages the same way… typing that way isn’t actually much faster, but it’s often more enjoyable. It also helps to convey a more informal and relaxed tone.

therein
0 replies
18h35m

I have both rM and rM2. I reverse engineered the rM refresh API and made an open-source framework out of it. This device looks very interesting and I actually wanted to grab one to play with but the next batch ships so far into the future that I decided to wait.

If you could send me a unit (which I'll of course pay for) on a more accelerated schedule, I'd love to explore the device. Let me know.

typon
0 replies
19h32m

Looking forward to the MKBHD review

HenryBemis
6 replies
20h11m

It looks like the speed of the video is at 1.25 or something like that. The hand/finger moves kinda un-naturally. Is it just me?

Either way, it looks great. I do watch some YT vids, but I focus on the audio (i.e. watching some urgent news on Sky News (live) - video detail is not as important when something very bad has happened).

bentcorner
2 replies
17h17m

It's about 3x. At 19-20s time goes from 5:44 to 5:45, at 40s it goes from 5:45 to 5:46.

SamBam
1 replies
15h33m

That's pretty misleading and borderline deceptive. They should release a real-time video.

cdrini
0 replies
6h37m

There are other videos here: https://daylightco.gorgias.help/en-US#article-493382 . That one video appears to have been sped up, my guess is to try to show a "summary" of functionality. I tried a few of the other videos and they don't appear to be sped up.

eichin
1 replies
13h53m

Yeah, for something where the performance is actually a selling point, you should probably feel obliged to include a clock or some other reference in the image. (I'm not claiming anything about this particular video - just that you really want to eliminate the perception of impropriety here.) This was a big problem in robotics for years - it eventually became standard to still do sped up videos but be disciplined about including labels, and robots finally got to plausible speeds at actual tasks - but it didn't take much early-on fakery to get people to assume that most videos were sped up.

(There's a lot of staging and other "creative presentation" that's legitimate marketing - but if you're talking about speed/responsiveness at all, you really need to be explicit.)

cdrini
0 replies
6h36m

I think context matters; that specific video is meant to show a summary of the functionality; it's in a section called "ereader on steroids" and it doesn't say anything about speed. And there are a lot of other videos on the same page which are not sped up. https://daylightco.gorgias.help/en-US#article-493382

Labelling the speed would be nice, but I don't detect any bad intentions here.

smusamashah
3 replies
20h41m

Wrong link?

Chilko
0 replies
20h7m

If you click on "Get to Know the Daylight Computer" section it has some videos.

qq66
0 replies
21h27m

I've tried it and it's extraordinary. Is it worth it, at this price, to you? That's something only you can answer. But it's unlike anything you've ever seen. I agree that it needs to be seen to be understood and hopefully they can get in retail outlets at some point.

d--b
21 replies
20h55m

Please, tell me there's a phone coming along. Light Phone made a mistake not going Android. You totally nailed it with that casually dropped Spotify icon in that shot!

I personally have zero use for a tablet. But if I can have an eink phone, with all the authentication apps I need to connect to work and do banking (and maps and Spotify), I'll drop that iPhone that is frying the brains of my kids instantly.

jadbox
8 replies
20h27m

See the Minimal E-ink phone

op12op12
4 replies
19h38m

They were still making major design changes just one week ago (first completely removing, then providing a front-facing camera option after previously changing the screen dimensions and device form factor). There's basically no way it ships on their timeline (currently Sept 2024), if it ships at all. They nailed the slick marketing, but have been full of nonsensical timelines and promises.

geraldwhen
3 replies
19h25m

https://www.thelightphone.com/

An e ink phone already exists, in reality. I don’t know why you would hold out hope for a Kickstarter.

natsucks
1 replies
17h55m

I've been using the light phone 2 off and on for the past year. It's too painful to use.

geraldwhen
0 replies
8h52m

How so? I’d like to hear why

op12op12
0 replies
19h9m

I own the Light Phone 2 and do like it a lot, but it's a bit too limited and some of the promises of Minimal would solve some of the pain points that Light hasn't managed to, so I definitely see the appeal.

But everything I've seen indicates that Minimal is going to be heavily delayed, if it's not an outright scam. Meanwhile, the Light Phone 2 has been around for years now, and they're planning to release updated hardware later this year.

SamBam
2 replies
15h35m

Off-topic, but anyone know if Google Fi would make it easy to switch between two phones without too much hassle?

I'd love to have a second phone that I could take around when I'm not expecting to do any photography or anything. (I know, I could have a dedicated camera instead, but I take pictures on my phone...)

pyoung
1 replies
12h43m

They provide free data-only sim cards. And you used to be able to sync all of your texts and calls in the hangout app, but they got rid of that. The last time I tried syncing the Messages app to a data o my device, it didn't work too well. That was a while ago though so not sure if that is still the case.

Swapping sim cards is probably too much of a hassle. You could just make the epaper phone your primary, and drag along the second phone as needed. Also, there is no reason an epaper phone can't take photos. Plenty of camera gear out there where the viewfinder/preview screen is a very poor preview of the final image and regardless, most folks just snap away with their phones and look at the images later. Modern smartphones do most of the work regarding camera settings.

SamBam
0 replies
5h31m

Also, there is no reason an epaper phone can't take photos.

I would love that, but really doubt any company is going to put out a phone with a great camera and an epaper screen.

dmicah
5 replies
19h51m

The Boox Palma doesn't have a cell connection but is a phone-sized Android based e-paper tablet.

parhamn
4 replies
17h44m

I've never owned an android, but for any android folks: how do you all think about device security/privacy when the manufacture is relatively unknown and overseas?

I really wanted to get one, but didn't know the risks associated with this.

JeremyNT
2 replies
16h16m

Completely untrustworthy.

I have a Likebook e-ink android device and it's great, except for the fact that I can't trust the software at all.

I just assume it has a root kit on it.

The faster refresh isn't even what excites me about the daylight, it's the fact that it's a more trustworthy vendor (hopefully).

hedora
0 replies
4h0m

I tried grapheneos, and it’s great out of the box. It’s snappy, 3x manufacturer claimed battery life, and the camera sort of works (everything else did except the pixel fast charger).

However, to run third party apps (especially those that use GPS, including lyft and uber), you have to install the Google Play Services, which are sandboxed, but cut the battery life by 66% back to the manufacturer claims (so I assume at least some of the continuous surveillance crap was running / successfully phoning home).

On top of that, at any given time, 5-10% of apps would crash on startup.

They gave java stacktraces saying they got an unchecked null pointer exception when looking for random system services. The set of apps would change randomly over time, as companies only test on android, and take a while to fix such low-priority bugs.

Also, it was missing a bunch of functionality I take for granted on iPhone, and that I ended up needing (like crdt-based notes).

On the bright side, android’s non-carplay bluetooth support is miles ahead of iOS.

Tl:dr: Degoogled android would be nice, but don’t bother.

dml2135
0 replies
15h40m

Yea I was recently considering a Boox device but this turned me against it. It’s not even running a recent version of Android (only Android 11).

kernal
0 replies
3h37m

how do you all think about device security/privacy when the manufacture is relatively unknown and overseas?

Find out their update policy. I wouldn't buy a device not matching or exceeding 7 years of OS upgrades / Security patches.

Aeolun
1 replies
17h29m

I don’t think this is necessarily true. I use reMarkable almost purely because it’s not an android tablet.

anonzzzies
0 replies
12h58m

I have a remarkable and a boox; I only use the boox in the end because it’s Android and I can actually do things on it…

tmjwid
0 replies
6h6m

The HiSense A5, A7 and A9 range of phones could be your answer. Problem is it is a Chinese domestic market phone. A9 does have a GSI of LineageOS with working EINK refresh modes available on XDA so this could be your ticket if the 4G bands are available in your country (basically not the US).

I have an A5 Pro and it works great.

tazjin
0 replies
6h59m

I've been using an e-ink phone (HiSense A9) full-time for a year, and it's pretty great. Especially things like biking navigation in sunlight are a huge plus.

The Daylight Computer technology is super interesting and a friend of mine that saw one at some tech festival a while ago said it really is that good. Unfortunately an Android tablet is about the least interesting product you could make with that technology, for me. A phone, a laptop or a full-size computer monitor would be a different game.

aprilnya
0 replies
20h10m

They commented on Twitter saying they’ll use profits from the tablet towards making a phone

thot_experiment
20 replies
21h18m

Can I run my own software on it? I would love to buy an epaper portable of some sort, but the fact that they're all locked down is a no go. One day I'll live my dream of vim in the forest grove.

boochiboo12
14 replies
21h10m

yup yes, we will release a bootloader unlock tool so you can do whatever you want

rebeccaskinner
3 replies
13h36m

This completely changes the chances that I'll buy this. I love the idea, but I just can't see myself ever buying an android device that is running Google's panopticon. I also noticed there's nothing on the product page about privacy, and was about to write this off as another nice gadget that I'd never be able to use.

I'm very hopeful with an unlocked bootloader that the community will provide a more privacy-focused operating system so that I can enjoy this product.

boesboes
2 replies
9h28m

Same for me, if your product asks me to login with google I'm out. Just out.

I've considered, for instance, getting a fair phone. But the only way to get a pre-de-googled one is through a third party at a 20% premium..

rebeccaskinner
0 replies
2h38m

I'm currently using an old iPhone, but my plan once it finally dies is to buy a pixel phone and immediately wipe it and install Graphene. It seems really weird to buy a google device if I want better privacy, but based on the research I've done it really does seem like the best option if you value privacy, are willing to deal with a little bit of pain to get privacy, but also need a phone that can at least sometimes do things like run banking apps that force you into the panopticon of bullshit.

I know you specifically said pre-de-googled, but as you said it seems like the options there are really bad, but graphene does seem to make it pretty easy to install (although I haven't actually tried it yet).

Vinnl
0 replies
7h57m

If an unlocked bootloader would satisfy you for this device, then surely the Fairphone should be good for you too? At least for the FP4, you don't even need the CLI or anything - just install the desktop app [1], connect your phone, and run the app.

[1] https://doc.e.foundation/easy-installer

thot_experiment
0 replies
20h6m

I would sign up for a mailing list for when this is available, I will probably actually buy one if it's android with root.

pcdoodle
0 replies
19h39m

This will be a "killer feature" for the crowd here for many reasons.

This product would also make for a classy home automation tablet.

lambdaxyzw
0 replies
19h30m

Just pitching in to say this is also very important to me.

evanphx
0 replies
20h30m

Upon hearing this (and seeing the software that you've got listed on the website) I went and bought one. Looks great!

dugite-code
0 replies
20h42m

If you really do this it would be a fantastic incentive for me. Just knowing the community can tinker makes a product feel more my own rather than "rented" like some systems out there.

ddingus
0 replies
19h37m

THANK YOU!

There is so much hardware out there people could be hacking on, improving, repressing all wasted due to difficulty loading new code.

A coworker was given a SONY e-ink device. We quite like it, but the included firmware is limited and dependent on a windows app that leaves a lot to be desired.

This is early hardware that was given the SONY treatment. That means great enclosure and ergonomics, but also conservative use of the display and goofy proprietary interfaces.

Would not take much to make the device a lot more useful.

One day, we will circle around and be talking about these already solid devices and how in-demand they remain despite their age because of your great decision.

Sidebar: I really want one, but am price constrained at the moment. (Too bad, so sad for me!)

Will the production models see an equally open configuration?

Hope so. Thanks again.

barnabee
0 replies
19h2m

This got you another order

Zuiii
0 replies
16h37m

okay, now I'm very interested.

VagabundoP
0 replies
13h17m

Another massive plus.

World needs more boot loader unlocked devices.

I imagine you’ll get Linux distributions within a week or so.

Aachen
0 replies
6h49m

Let me know when it's out!

—Owner of a bricked e-ink device

mdp2021
2 replies
9h59m

One day I'll live my dream of vim in the forest grove

That would be any Android tabled - supposedly E-Ink based - with Termux installed...

freedomben
1 replies
4h1m

Yes, although to satisfy my dream of vim in the forest grove, that vim needs to be capable of opening and writing every (text) file on the filesystem, meaning it needs root

thot_experiment
0 replies
8m

100% this, it's a computer let me compute.

lights0123
0 replies
21h2m

I've used vim from the reMarkable and a C interpreter in a root shell when my laptop was broken. On-screen keyboard wasn't the best experience though

JoelMcCracken
0 replies
19h40m

I haven't done a ton of usage outdoors, but my boox max lumi works for this. IIUC the android it runs is "unlocked" so I think you could use it as a computer if you wanted. I use it as a tablet and a monitor.

mushufasa
14 replies
19h51m

We developed our own custom epaper display tech we call LivePaper. We focused on solving the tradeoffs RLCDs traditionally have - around reflectance %, metallic-look / not Paperlike enough, viewing angle, white state, rainbow mura, parallax, resolution, size, lack of quality backlight, etc.

Would you license this to others at a more affordable rate than e-ink? Lenovo has some e-ink 2-in-1 "thinkbook" laptops and might be a good partner... I'm sure you're considered this already.

Personally I am sold on the 'low distraction and eye strain' of e-ink, and would be keen on buying a computer with that display. That said, I'm more interested in a general computer running a general operating system (ubuntu or any linux) if I'm using something for daily work. Even if your own operating system can do these things I would be concerned with edge-cases for software I need for work, so for professional daily usage I need an OS that is battle-tested, and not based on a locked-down sandboxed mobile system like android where I'd have to fight the OS to do what I want.

I do own and use a remarkable, so I'm probably in the target market. I only use the remarkable for note taking, it's handy for freehand sketching visual ideas or concepts digitally, where typing or any sort of computer drawing with a mouse may add friction that gets in the way of getting the ideas down onto paper. The main advantage over paper is so I don't need to worry about misplacing the pieces of draft paper afterwards, when I revisit an idea months later.

I definitely don't want a tablet for typing code. If I'm going to carry around an external keyboard, I might as well just get a thin-and-light laptop.

I almost bought the aforementioned thinkbook with the e-ink display. Main reason I didn't was that I was worried about compatibility issues if I ran linux, since it's designed for windows.

geon
0 replies
10h36m

Cool. Is it strictly black and white? I see no grayscale.

luyu_wu
1 replies
18h3m

Wenting Zhang made a proof of concept for this, it's somewhere on his Twitter, Youtuhe, or Github :)

Definetly would be amazing to have for the Framework.

RossBencina
0 replies
8h35m

Seems like they'll be shipping dev kits on crowd supply soon. Was posted on HN last week:

Glider – open-source eInk monitor with an emphasis on low latency https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40358309

roughly
0 replies
18h17m

Oh my god I would buy this in a heartbeat (specifically the RLCD display - I've used enough kindle-style e-ink displays to find them basically unusable for anything I'm intending to actually interact with).

michaljanocko
0 replies
19h5m

I'd sell my kidney for that.

eblanshey
0 replies
18h29m

I'd buy a framework laptop just for that.

CarVac
0 replies
19h31m

I would buy one.

KennyBlanken
1 replies
10h39m

They are just using displays made by eInk. Technically, Linfiny Japan Inc., which is a subsidiary that does B2B stuff like large displays.

Several companies are offering similar fast refresh tech. It's no longer anything super special.

jodrellblank
0 replies
6h33m

"We developed our own custom epaper display tech we call LivePaper. ... Note: it’s 60fps epaper, not off the shelf Eink"

Why do you claim it's off the shelf eInk when they explicitly say it isn't?

teleforce
0 replies
18h10m

Yes 2-in-1 is very interesting and useful device, the latest one version has color e-ink [1].

For non-color e-ink sporting 60fps display in low-cost laptop with Intel entry level N100 CPU would be awesome as working and learning gadgets, and batteries should last days instead of hours.

[1] Meet the Lenovo ThinkBook Plus Twist

https://youtu.be/ZBV_VGsVqqE

DrNosferatu
0 replies
5h51m

This. Lenovo never quite managed to get their act together with the e-paper side of their 2-in-1.

- Maybe this is what's missing?

- ...maybe you could do you own 2-in-1?

divan
13 replies
21h36m

Any chance of the A4 size device and higher DPI in the future? Will pay any money for that.

A4 e-ink has considerable audience that doesn't know they need it – people who read papers. All the academia is formatted for A4 and stored in PDFs, which is pretty unreadable even on 10". People literally print them on paper to read.

I currently enjoying A4-sized Boox Tab X and it's a game changer, as I read a lot of papers and want to read more outside. Love it so much, and having Android is important (instead of some own walled OS), as I can sync my papers via ReadCube Papers app. I also tried to use it as a monitor for coding, but even with their superrefresh technology refresh rate is still a problem.

Kichererbsen
7 replies
11h41m

yes, academia should totally love this, but my experience is that they just all got used to reading papers on their laptops or tablets.

but I would totally love this. in fact, I have a remarkable tablet just for reading "papers" (ahem Dungeons & Dragons PDFs). but switching quickly between pages is tricky there...

wuschel
6 replies
11h31m

That depends. Back in the day, in my research institute, it was common practice to print out the papers that should be read thoroughly - after skimming them on a Laptop screen.

was_a_dev
4 replies
11h13m

I read most papers on a secondary 19" monitor that's mounted portrait. Seems to cover all the requirements

Someone
2 replies
10h36m

Not all ones not mentioned in this thread yet. A secondary 19" monitor ties you to a desk. A tablet would allow reading wherever people typically read paper printouts (in the train, while sitting on a couch, etc.)

was_a_dev
0 replies
6h8m

You're not wrong. But in those scenarios, I tend to be off the clock

bluGill
0 replies
5h32m

When I have a complex paper to read I will spread it out on the floor. A single page at a time is too limiting, I want to be able to see page 5 and page 12 at the same time.

bee_rider
0 replies
4h34m

It was nice to be able to jot things down in the margins (math, not just notes). Provide yourself the couple steps the author skipped (to show how clever they are).

LoganDark
0 replies
3h41m

There's only a certain number of papers you can carry around and flip through like that. With a tablet, it can store hundreds or thousands of papers without getting any more unwieldy.

boesboes
1 replies
9h31m

I've been waiting for 10 years for a A4 e-ink device. Only Sony made one, but it was never available anywhere. And pretty meh probably too :)

Remarkable 2 was pretty decent for notes, but terrible for reading imo. And the bs to get a proper ebook app on it etc was just too much for me.

divan
0 replies
3h5m

Try Onyx Boox Tab X. I found it to be the only viable option now and it's really good. They did some own stuff to have "ultrafast" refresh rate (you can choose desirable tradoff some ghosting for refresh rate). Stylus and notes are pretty good too.

hedora
0 replies
4h13m

I’m guessing letter would be fine too, given how many times I’ve printed out European papers here in the states.

A stylus would help a lot a that point too. So would a hole in the tablet where you can store the stylus — my apple sits and collects dust with a dead battery. I bought it for occasional use, and it’s never ready when I need it, even at home.

dmos62
0 replies
21h18m

I do use a newer boox android eink tablet for coding via termux and ssh. Great for my needs. I wonder how this compares.

Tepix
0 replies
12h59m

A4 e-ink has considerable audience that doesn't know they need it

They know it very well. There's been a void for an affordable eInk device for this purpose for decades.

dtx1
12 replies
1d

So this is an advanced form of reflective LCD? Interesting. LTT recently tested a color display like that too[0].

A few Questions: Why is it black and white? Does the Image stay the same when the device is off? What is the surface like for the Pen? Is the Display recessed so there's parallax between pen and Display or is it laminated like an iPad? How is the repairability? Can the battery be replaced easily? How is software support going to be? Since I'm supposed to link all kinds of cloud accounts to it, I would not buy this without a statement regarding security updates and support lifetime.

Looks cool though! [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0TcGjzKbag

boochiboo12
11 replies
22h25m

1) black & white because bayer color filter will cut your brightness by 66%

2) alas we gave up bistability for speed, so the image doesn't stay when you turn it off (however, we maybe can do quasi-bistability with this tech for watch or kindle sized future devices)

3) the pen writing feel is similar to my favorite japanese paper campus kokoyu. you could argue comparable to a remarkable or maybe even better for some

4)its all laminated / optically bonded

5) we can improve on repairability, its fine, but nothing stand out. we have big plans in the future here though

6) we're aiming to build the business on customer trust so we better be good at software updates! android is hard though, so its definitely a learning curve and requires a lot of resources

7) we'll do better to earn your trust around using our accounts - lots of plans in the coming months and years to be the best privacy + security + sovereignty computers!

kiliantorpey
4 replies
21h40m

Some more questions about software support. It seems the device is using android. Do you have any plan to support mainline linux kernel? It could allow the possibility to use native linux distro like PostmarketOS (https://postmarketos.org/) for device longevity. Your team could also benefit from delegating some softare support effort to linux kernel team.

boochiboo12
3 replies
21h1m

we're open to it! we just need to better understand what resources we need internally to support this effort and for the specific mediatek/qualcomm chips we're looking at

traverseda
0 replies
18h26m

What specific mediatek/qaulcom chips are you looking at? It says you've already shipped two batches, so I assume that's been decided?

schaefer
0 replies
19h15m

If a standard linux image is produced, I would potentially replace my laptop with this device.

freedomben
0 replies
3h31m

Given the level of excitement around this, and the community expertise, if I were you I'd open up as much of the info as you legally can and let the community help. I think there's a decent chance that if you set up the framework, you may not have to do much to get it done. I would:

1. Create a github page where you include as much of the hardware info as you can

2. Include any custom kernel patches that you have for the hardware (I'm pretty sure this is legally required anyway because of GPL on the kernel, so this could double as fulfillment of publishing/distribution)

3. Let people go at it! Early on I expect a community leader (usually a top contributor) will emerge that you can work with to get it done. I suspect you wouldn't have to do a whole lot (beyond information sharing) to get stuff mainlined and even prebuilt distros assembled for the device!

Even if it doesn't work, it's not a big investment and it gives you a massive amount of credibility with the community.

alexb_
2 replies
19h30m

2) alas we gave up bistability for speed, so the image doesn't stay when you turn it off

Huh????? I feel cheated after reading this. Only using power for screen changes is half the point of e-ink!

currency
1 replies
16h24m

It sounds like they're calling it e-paper because it's a variable refresh reflective LCD, not e-ink.

wkat4242
0 replies
14h19m

Yeah it's the exact same thing that pebble did. They used Sharp low energy self-refreshing LCD

pcdoodle
1 replies
19h33m

7) hits home for me. This is already buy worthy.

ddingus
0 replies
19h29m

Same. This coming shift in computing looks to be ugly and closed to a higher degree. Makes me want to support anything like this.

sp0rk
0 replies
19h38m

I think the average person (myself included) does not know that something can be considered ePaper without being bistable. The two are married in my head because all of the ePaper devices that I've been exposed to thus far have been bistable. If I were you, I would find a clever way to communicate this fact without making it sound like too much of a drawback.

jelder
10 replies
20h54m

Sell me a massive desktop e-ink display with USB-C input. I want to code on this.

alemanek
2 replies
18h35m

Ok you are my favorite person now. Thanks

jiveturkey
0 replies
12h11m

https://www.reddit.com/r/eink/comments/qjw0xo/just_got_a_das...

I think this e-ink technology will never catch on for monitors, because there is just too much lag and ghosting. I think RLCD (like the Hisense Q5), which is much more fluid and has no ghosting is the way to go.

not mentioned: 3 year lifespan

eli
0 replies
18h17m

I think Monoprice had one at one point. And I think boox makes a monitor. I looked into it last year but never pulled the trigger.

mdp2021
1 replies
9h58m

Consider if you really want B/W for coding.

(E-Ink colour displays, Kaleido3 for speed, do not come in "large" size - if you do not consider the exceptional ~60'' made for showrooms.)

freedomben
0 replies
3h58m

yeah, I tried that once and instantly realized the magnitude of information that is conveyed via color alone by syntax highlighting. Color is mandatory for me

unshavedyak
0 replies
3h53m

Same, but a laptop. I can even code over SSH, but the weight ratio for laptop usage needs to be right.

throwaway290
0 replies
11h57m

It's not really e-ink, it's more like transflective LCD, you can buy entire screens from guys like SunVision, LTT did a thing: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c0TcGjzKbag

funksta
8 replies
21h17m

Big reMarkable 2 fan here, and it's very intriguing to see some competition to traditional eInk!

Coming from the rM2, my immediate concerns are display density, and impact of the light on writing feel (both reMarkable and Ratta claim that feel suffers with the extra space between the pen tip and display).

Also as someone who makes a lot of pdf-based tools for the reMarkable, I'd love to see a video or details about the built-in pdf (and epub, hopefully!) reader

e-_pusher
4 replies
21h3m

Source: I was the chief hardware engineer for this device.

The problem with eink tablets is that they must use front light, and not backlight due to how eink works. This means there is an extra layer in front of the layer where the pixels are, which causes parallax effects which makes writing feel fake. This is (likely) why remarkable deleted the frontlight from their product.

Whereas with the daylight tablet, we have a trans reflective display and a backlight. Since the backlight layer is behind the layer where the pixels are, the parallax does not suffer.

I find the experience of writing with a Wacom EMR pen on mine very pleasing :)

funksta
0 replies
19h55m

I did not pick up on the frontlight/backlight distinction when reading the overview, thanks! Seems like some very novel tech here, I'd love to see more technical details when they're revealed

bloopernova
0 replies
20h36m

I was really impressed by the Kindle Scribe pen input. I don't suppose you've compared that and the Daylight side by side?

Actually that might make an interesting video, going through basic workflows on different tablets.

bjt12345
0 replies
10h59m

Whereas with the daylight tablet, we have a trans reflective display and a backlight. Since the backlight layer is behind the layer where the pixels are, the parallax does not suffer.

I find the experience of writing with a Wacom EMR pen on mine very pleasing :)

You are burying the lead here.

This is a big deal, competitors like Onyx Boox don't do this.

And yes, it's annoying.

_zephyr
0 replies
17h52m

Reading through the specs I was pleasantly surprised to see Wacom EMR on the list, I enjoy it on my laptop and seems like it would be a great choice here. Best of luck to you and the team!

boochiboo12
2 replies
21h5m

1) remarkable & ratta are traditional off the shelf eink and have to use a frontlight (above the display) which has many tradeoffs

2) daylight actually uses microperforations in our LivePaper display, so we're able to use a backlight, which in our opinion is superior in multiple ways

one of which, is what you're describing! our backlight doesnt affect writing feel or distance from pen tip to display!

(also way better contrast with BLU on with backlight)

3) thats awesome! feel free to reach out if you want to collaborate, we want to build the best PDF experiences out there as we're serious about knowledge work

anjan at daylightcomputer.com

we will share more details about our pdf reader later this summer when we do an official software launch!

funksta
0 replies
19h57m

Very cool! Thank you, I will be following closely and may convince myself to join Batch 3 :) And will probably reach out in a few days (I'm sure you're quite busy right now!)

adiM
0 replies
18h27m

Ratta (SuperNote) does not have front light. At least the A6X that I have. I don't think that the new version (Nomad) has a front light either.

liendolucas
6 replies
20h39m

Is it 100% open source? Or is it a device that I'm going to be locked in like mobile phones? Are any chances that the price goes down? I think now this is a factor that prevents me from buying it.

SamBam
5 replies
15h30m

What would lock you in? It's Android, most of your data on apps is going to be saved to the cloud on individual accounts, and pdfs are going to be yours. I'm not sure what would lock you in.

liendolucas
4 replies
11h39m

That's absolutely something I do not want after paying almost 800 dollars. Why do you assume that I want to sync my data to the cloud? I maybe want to rsync my stuff to another device of my own. Will I need an account to access the Android store? Again something I don't either want and dislike. And finally will I need to customize it to have root access? I also don't want to do that, I should fully own the thing and do whatever I want. That's what I meant.

natrys
3 replies
10h5m

Can't you just get Syncthing or Termux (for rsync) from fdroid? That's what I do on any Android. No cloud bullshit or account in Google necessary.

liendolucas
2 replies
8h16m

Sure, I can. And I do on my mobile phone cause is the most covenient and fast thing to do and don't have much of a choice.

But why do I need to put termux on a device when it is already running a full-fledged linux? How would you feel if tomorrow you are forced to use Docker just because you can't have root access to your PC? For me it doesn't make any sense at all.

I'm really disappointed of seeing cool stuff locked down by default. Why? Why not be a nice player and go full open source from day one? Is that really hard thing to do? Do they lose anything by doing so?

Or at least when I turn on the device for the first time give me options to choose from:

a) A regular Android. b) An Android that has full root access. c) Run a regular Linux. d) Something else.

In any case the user should easily be able to change to any of the above once running.

Is that asking too much for 800 bucks and for a device that has just entered the market?

natrys
0 replies
3h10m

I need to preface by saying that I wholeheartedly agree with your overarching point. Everyone should truly own their devices which means at least unlocked bootloader, full root access. I also agree that vendor customised androids are also frequently annoying. That said I don't really agree with this take:

But why do I need to put termux on a device when it is already running a full-fledged linux?

Android is not a full-fledged Linux. It's linux kernel to be sure, but it never pretended to have usual (GNU) userspace. It even uses its own libc. Under this circumstance, I am not sure why it's unusual to have to install an extra package to get a foreign userspace working. It's not particularly different from when you have to use system package manager to install a different shell in your Debian or different libc in Alpine linux e.g. They could go full open source (like AOSP) and this situation wouldn't be any different.

Aachen
0 replies
6h55m

why do I need to put termux on a device when it is already running a full-fledged linux?

Well, at minimum you are going to need an input method to make syscalls. Most people find it more convenient to run software, such as bash and vim, that talks to glibc that eventually makes syscalls to the kernel on your behalf.

I think what you're asking is why termux isn't bundled with android and the answer to that seems straightforward without even considering ulterior motives: it's more than a hundred megabytes. Maybe 1% of people would use it if you're lucky, and people have a word for large pre-installed software package they didn't want: bloatware

I think we're on the same side but the argument you're using is weird. Linux is a kernel and if you meant distribution then there are still many systems that don't ship a terminal but are still free and open source software

What I think you're trying to argue for is the broader point of it being locked down. Why isn't Termux allowed in Google's store anymore? Why can you not fulfill GPL requirements in their store (you'd need to make a quine)? Why do you need to pass a dozen warning screens and lots of fearmongering online before you get to a state where you've got full access to your own device? Why do many software developers try to detect that state and then refuse to work with you? These are the lock-downs, not that you need to go and "apt install" the software you want to use

Do they lose anything by doing so?

The ability to do whatever they want is what they lose when you're in control. DRM being one of the main applications, security is often (mostly incorrectly) touted as a reason for what's actually thwarting competition. And I'll grant them that it actually makes sense for non-techies (my grandma manages to activate the weirdest things that are hidden in menus and behind very clearly worded confirmation dialogs, while claiming she was trying to add a phone book contact), but for someone who enabled developer tools and successfully entered a tar command (xkcd reference) it does not. Businesses might want to lock down their work devices, that's a legit reason for locking down as well, but that's not applicable for phones where MDM is not enabled. The only consumer advantage of a DRM'd phone is that a second hand purchaser can be reasonably certain there's no modifications to the OS without having to know how to re-flash it. I don't think that's a good enough reason to justify it, but I did want to acknowledge there are legitimate/objective advantages to it as well even if I disagree with the overall status quo

fallat
6 replies
15h59m

I need you to tell me. Why are you not selling these as components for others to integrate? If this is truly better, and you hold patents, you would get zillions orders. Every hobbyist under the sun would buy this.

riazrizvi
5 replies
13h23m

Because that would make it a shit commodity business and you’d have too little value over the manufacturers who would soon cut you out. Why not do it yourself if you think it’s such a great money maker?

saurik
3 replies
12h49m

I don't understand how any of this makes sense given "and you hold patents".

riazrizvi
1 replies
11h54m

Where does the company mention patents?

saurik
0 replies
5h12m

That would've been a fair response, but you just kind of ignored that part of the comment you were replying to.

cowsaymoo
0 replies
12h41m

maybe they are saying patents are territorial, and not always respected

eternauta3k
0 replies
5h55m

If they sell components or monitors then they only have to do one "simple" thing right. If they sell tablets/cellphones/laptops then they have to do a number of more complex stuff well enough that people will consider switching.

aresant
6 replies
1d

Instantly bought this to support your mission

A "calm" computer interface is such a welcome idea and quality pursuit

Participating in the good of the digital world - information access, communication, creativity

While mitigating the bad - always on notifications, bio-hostile blue light interface, doom scrolling etc

I hope that this V1 release of your philosophy is successful enough to keep building

To that end what are your long term goals / plans?

boochiboo12
5 replies
22h33m

holy moly dude you are articulating our value prop and philosophy even better than we can

glad to be on the same team!

long term goals/plans

- make a whole ecosystem of healthier, distraction free computers.. phones, laptops, monitors, workstations, watches, PDAs, epaper whiteboards, etc - make awesome software that we can offer as public goods, funded by cash flow from hardware and memberships etc - make 'magical analogue objects' like actually good sunrise alarm clocks, time timers, calendars, habit trackers, better phillip hues, etc

cfiggers
1 replies
15h33m

Definitely lean into the phrase "calm computer interface"

Access to the same stuff as your phone, but chill about it

Love the idea of informative ambient objects as well—people love the Standby Mode on iPhones, this sounds like that but better

camgunz
0 replies
6h3m

This has been a thing for a little while: https://calmtech.com/

xnx
0 replies
21h2m

Wow. Great looking device and great long term vision/mission. As someone who hacked an old Kindle to make a persistent weather display, I am wholly in support of what you're working on.

ddingus
0 replies
19h35m

Fantastic! I am definitely going to follow you and team with great interest!

These ideas are SO needed right now.

Difwif
0 replies
18h38m

If you stick with an open source ethos and allow anyone to hack and write software for these things... you're going to find a highly devoted niche of lifetime customers. I am one of them. Great work!

stevenschmatz
5 replies
22h23m

Huge congrats! I've been dreaming of something like this for a while - instant pre-order!

boochiboo12
4 replies
21h47m

your support means everything! thank you!

i wish people could understand how hard it is to survive low volume novel consumer electronics.. not meant to solicit pity, but to appreciate why we're all just stuck with big tech after indie company after indie company fail

amne
2 replies
21h24m

make a display for framework laptop. please

ryukafalz
0 replies
16h24m

I'd love one of these displays in my MNT Reform too. Another (tiny!) indie tech company :)

ImPostingOnHN
0 replies
18h51m

I would buy this.

I just bought a Boox Max Lumi 2, but being able to effectively code in a sunny park would be amazing.

xupybd
0 replies
20h5m

Your prices are impressive for low volume.

I hope things go well for you. These are the kinds of devices I want to become mainstream.

schaefer
5 replies
19h5m

boochiboo12,

Please reach out to the team at goodereader.com and see if a review can be arranged. they cover e-ink and several e-ink alternatives, including other vendors in the RLCD space.

adiM
4 replies
18h20m

FYI: goodereader has a bad reputation in the eink world. Their reviews are fair but their shop is borderline scam.

schaefer
3 replies
17h19m

Thanks for the head's up.

I don't agree.

schaefer
1 replies
6h29m

Alright.

You are putting together a compelling argument for both skepticism and caution before placing an order for merchandise from the goodereader store. (not something I planned to do)

--

How do you feel about their youtube channel where they review all the various devices in this market segment?

Specifically, have you ever found their reviews to be inaccurate?

Do you know of any alternative source of reviews in this market segment that is as comprehensive or experienced?

One thing I'll say in favor is that they do send their writing staff to the various trade shows.

yareal
0 replies
5h13m

They specifically said, "their reviews are fair". Maybe you missed that part of their post?

causality0
5 replies
22h3m

It would be cool if we could cast our phone screens to it. That way we wouldn't have to deal with file and app synchronization, cellular tethering, or any of the other friction points of using multiple devices.

boochiboo12
2 replies
22h2m

its a good idea, know any good firmware / encoding engineers who could help us build really good casting?

chrisoconnell
0 replies
21h59m

Let's chat. I'd love to connect and see if we can make this happen.

Intralexical
0 replies
16h36m

There's a WiFi standard for screen casting. No idea how it works. Support seems spotty, though steadily growing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracast

yencabulator
0 replies
19h37m

That seems to go in the other direction, show Android screen on browser.

robocat
4 replies
20h22m

And we built a whole android tablet around it.

What is the reason it isn't worth your while to sell the display seperately so other devices can be built using it?

coolspot
2 replies
20h18m

Much lower margin if you just sell a component.

ddingus
1 replies
19h33m

Still, once their display partner is ramped up, lower margin is still margin. Get it out there through Waveshare or someone similar.

I have purchased and made use of several raw displays from them. All, but the big e-ink one have been great to work with. That one has some proprietary interface to unlock the real speed potential and individuals cannot sign the NDA. Grrr..

djmips
0 replies
19h19m

It's not that hard to start a company on paper.

djmips
0 replies
19h20m

They are trying to sell an entire ethos as well. But also what the other person said.

dcan
4 replies
1d

Any plans to sell just the display?

cush
2 replies
23h1m

It's interesting that Anjan compared the display tech to Pebble, because selling off the company instead of just the IP is where Pebble completely failed consumers. Pebble had something incredibly special, and then Fitbit bought Pebble and (for reasons I don't know) immediately killed all their projects and shelved all their tech. In a different reality, Anjan would have said, "Think of it as a Godzilla sized Fitbit watch with a decade of improvement". Selling just the screens seems like the obvious play here

jsheard
1 replies
21h16m

The Pebbles display wasn't Pebbles own tech, they used off-the-shelf MIP LCDs from Sharp. You can still buy them and they're still used in more utilitarian wearables, e.g. from Garmin, and in the Playdate.

Sharp doesn't make anything tablet-sized though, so that's not what OP is using.

utopcell
0 replies
19h56m

They do have 5" and 31.5" reflective displays though, they call them Reflective IGZO Displays.

bestouff
4 replies
23h39m

Will I be able to install LineageOS on this - as I do on all of my devices ?

boochiboo12
3 replies
22h51m

yes! we're going to come out with a bootloader unlock tool as well so you can do whatever you want

our goal is to be DIY friendly, so we included things i've always wanted in a tablet like:

- microSD card expandable - pogo pins for custom accessories (ie cyber deck FTW) - 2 extra physical buttons you can custom map

dt3ft
1 replies
5h29m

I’ll buy one when I see this materialize.

freedomben
0 replies
3h56m

I'm buying one now, believing in good faith that this will in fact materialize. GP, please follow through! :-D

bestouff
0 replies
20h52m

Oooh nice ! You have one more customer

ShayNehmad
4 replies
10h11m

I'm really thinking about buying one, but I NEED someone (even paid sponsors) on YT to review it and post a real-life video demo of them using it for a real thing in their office to believe the claims.

I can really see how this will make meetings, 1:1s, reviews, blogging, and designs at work way WAY more deep and engaging than with my MacBook. And perhaps it'll help me get into reading more, as well!

I think a nice demo can be Duolingo on it - it's something I do everyday so moving to this device could help me in that :)

Naracion
3 replies
7h7m

Unsure how you are intending to use it for 1:1s and meetings--I don't believe this has a camera, so it can't be your primary device you are taking the call on. Of course, as a note-taking device during a meeting, this would shine! :)

Zambyte
1 replies
7h1m

They probably meant meeting in person with this tablet instead of a laptop.

vaylian
0 replies
4h55m

And taking notes during the meeting. Maybe even demo something.

ShayNehmad
0 replies
2h44m

My thought process is: 1. During a physical meeting (all my team is co-located so it's easier) - note taking, brainstorming, etc. If I need to upload something from the meeting to our shared Canvas (on Slack) or to my notes (on Logseq) or just file them away (on Confluence, Logseq, Hibob, Slack, email) - seems a lot easier to stay connected and focused on the precious 1:1 time and juggle the data later. 2. During any other meeting; connect from my laptop via Zoom and write down notes on the paper. This will almost force me to not do what I usually do, which is lose focus on the meeting, stop thinking, and idly do something else (like zeroing my inbox, reading Slack, or programming). When I was in the Army and carried a physical paper notebook every meeting was actually useful for me.

JoshTriplett
4 replies
19h59m

How's the battery usage? You mentioned that it's not bistable and doesn't retain an image on power-off; does that mean the display requires non-trivial power even while displaying a static image? One of the big selling points of my reMarkable 2 is the incredible battery life.

Any plans for color? I know it'd be a sacrifice of brightness. I'm still interested despite the limitations.

seanalltogether
2 replies
7h16m

These types of displays use power to change the pixels, but almost nothing to retain the existing image, so battery life will be wildly variable depending on how you're using it. Browsing the web with nonstop animations versus reading a book will probably show massive swings in battery life.

circuit10
1 replies
3h31m

This isn’t e-ink, it’s a transflective LCD so that’s not true here

seanalltogether
0 replies
1h25m

It's not e-ink, but it appears to be the same as Sharps "memory" display, which means it continues to show an image even after power is removed. They have extremely low power draw when displaying static pixels

DarkmSparks
0 replies
13h30m

I was looking for the battery life to.

after a bit of digging through their page - 8000mAh battery giving "days" of charge.

So a long way from eink insanity, but a usable device in return. Im sure it will do well.

yarg
3 replies
18h30m

Is it possible for end users to deploy their own operating systems and software?

And do you make it easy for them to do so?

One of my pet peeves about the Android ecosystem is Google's abusive licensing restrictions for their extended service stack prohibiting vendors from distributing their own forks of the base software.

This is the sort of device that I'd be interested in from the hardware perspective, but would not even consider if it's not possible to strip every last remnant of Google from it.

talldayo
0 replies
18h15m

I bet you could get pretty far with Universal Android Debloater: https://github.com/0x192/universal-android-debloater

You can remove just about anything and everything, which is as much a warning as it is a recommendation. Don't use this if you're not ready to reinstall your OS.

juliangoldsmith
0 replies
16h36m

Came here to ask this. Depending on the SoC, bringing up Linux via postmarketOS could be pretty easy.

up6w6
3 replies
23h18m

Lack of speed and ghosting felt like it made traditional Eink impossible to do most computing tasks. So we focused on making the most Paperlike epaper display that has no ghosting and high refresh rate - 60 to 120fps. We started working on this in 2018.

The website mentions 60hz, will it also support 120hz?

boochiboo12
2 replies
22h53m

we're trying to underpromise and overdeliver, and our display can now do 60 - 120 fps, but believe it or not, our PDF renderer and software can't match that yet.

So we're waiting till we can holistically do 120fps before announcing that.

But if you do frame rate tests, you'll see its 120fps

(for the nerds out there, its 6hz-120hz variable refresh rate IGZO)

bschwindHN
0 replies
17h45m

How is the latency from input to visuals?

For example on an iPad pro 120Hz, it feels really close to actually just moving paper around. Does the Daylight Computer match that input latency?

aidenn0
0 replies
20h24m

While we are talking "LCD" and "In direct sunlight" and "display is close to surface" were you able to fit circular polarizers in there, or will I need to take my sunglasses off when using?

tapia
3 replies
21h44m

This looks very exiting! I am a long-time Sony DPT/Fujitsu Quaderno user and love these kind of devices. My question would be whether you have plans in the future to make a 13.3" version. The 10" versions are just too small for my use (mostly reading scientific papers).

boochiboo12
2 replies
21h3m

yes we do! ipad mini and 13.Xin versions are kawaii af

tapia
0 replies
20h30m

Great to hear that! I'll be looking forward to it.

otoburb
0 replies
15h53m

Can we pre-order the 13.X" version?

mikhailt
3 replies
21h37m

What's your refund policy if we don't like it? There's no mention of refund/return on the page at all.

Thanks.

boochiboo12
2 replies
21h4m

full refund if you dont like it

its vulnerable for us as a small startup on a shoestring budget to offer this, but it is the right thing to offer

(sorry we will update the page to add details to refund/return!)

mikhailt
1 replies
17h45m

Totally get it and thank you for doing that. I’ve placed an order already.

It’s just there’s also the risk of getting “scammed” by a new startup as well, having it on record would help.

freedomben
0 replies
3h49m

a fellow traveller I see. After getting robbed of over a thousand dollars in different early-product purchases that never materialized, I'm skeptical as well. OP has felt very honest to me, and their tech choices are completely much inline with what I would have done, so I'm inclined to believe them, but the more "in writing" the better.

grishka
3 replies
7h27m

Your website does its own "improvements" to scrolling, thus on macOS it feels like I'm scrolling through molasses. It's repulsive even. Please, I beg you, just let the platform do its job.

The tablet itself is interesting and impressive. I'm really curious to see that display in action.

Eric_WVGG
2 replies
5h54m

The term is “scrolljacking” and yes it’s infuriating.

MaxikCZ
1 replies
4h52m

It's always "Has my device freeze up? Oh no, there seem to be some change happening when I try to scroll, maybe if I scroll more it will work again?"

Any sane browser should let users disable it for all pages.

grishka
0 replies
2h32m

Any sane browser should also act like <video>, <audio> and <canvas> are unknown tags unless you allow that specific website to use them. Yet somehow, browsers are no longer user agents.

smusamashah
2 replies
20h34m

I bought a remarkable. But then a 2 years later had to sell it because my kid was running around and fiddling with my things. I could give my kid the Kindle and will have peace of mind that he can't break, even if he tries. Remarkable is just need a drop on the floor.

How rugged and heavy is your tablet? If it's easily breakable, do you have any future plans to make a tiny, small phone sized light weight paper tablet which one can pull out of pocket like a notepad write stuff and put back, and most importantly have no care in the world of breaking it?

turtlebits
1 replies
19h6m

My kid has been using my remarkable 2 for almost 4 years. (Since they were early elementary school aged) It's still fine.

Don't give kids devices if they can't be responsible to take care of them.

smusamashah
0 replies
18h58m

Can't tell all this to a very curious toddler.

ramesh31
2 replies
22h11m

Why no LTE?

boochiboo12
1 replies
21h45m

$$$

certifications for mobile/modems are expensive

our future gens will have it once/if we have the resources

russdill
0 replies
20h39m

The space of android tablets with LTE is frustratingly small.

manoweb
2 replies
14h18m

The product looks very good. However I did NOT like the marketing claim on the front page that points out it is "blue-light free". The claim that blue light is harmful is not really that scientifically proven and if one has blue light at home (awful LED fixtures) this device will happily reflect it, will it not? Please correct me if I'm wrong, I love building light fixtures and 3000K low voltage halogen light, which I believe would work so well with Your device.

kelsolaar
0 replies
11h16m

Unless the device absorbs the “nocive” part of the spectrum toward ultraviolet, you are correct saying it would reflect it.

freedomben
0 replies
3h39m

I don't think it needs blue light to be harmful for that to be a feature. I personally don't know or care if it's "harmful," but I know that it messes up my sleep cycles so I try to avoid it before bed and especially during the night.

jokellum
2 replies
18h30m

I like my rm2, but 2 of my biggest issues are:

- Syncing changes I make to PDFs to Google drive is tedious

- For some reason there's a restriction of color when drawing on the PDF. Even if The tablet is black and white which is fine, I want to be able to select a wide range of colors since ultimately I'll want to be able to view the PDFs on a legit RGB computer.

What does this workflow look like on Daylight?

Aeolun
1 replies
17h23m

I think there’s a limit on colors purely because it’s already nearly impossible to distinguish them on the BW screen?

jokellum
0 replies
8h2m

Yeah but I'll be viewing the PDF on my phone / computer, so being able to annotate in different colors even if the display is BW is important to me.

doctorpangloss
2 replies
2h9m

You should probably eliminate the "blue light free" claim. Per results on clinicaltrials.gov, blue light conclusively does not impact sleep outcomes.

This is complex for a layperson to investigate, but you have to search for insomnia, sleep disorders, wakefulness during the day, and only studies with results. There are many uncompleted studies - it is typical for studies that have no chance of producing an interesting outcome are dropped by their investigators even when registered. However, those uncompleted studies produce many conflating results.

For example, https://clinicaltrials.gov/study/NCT02698800?tab=results specifically investigated using blue light blocking lenses compared to clear lenses. This was not blinded. The differences in all their measures were within 1 standard deviation between the groups, so the result is conclusive that (1) insomnia scores vary very widely among people as a baseline (2) if there is a real effect, it is pretty small and would require a larger sample size to measure. Of course when they measure the part where you don't know if you're looking at blue light, like when you are actually asleep, there is no difference between groups.

This is just to say that the whole blue light thing - placebo effects are real. People perceive this blue light thing as real, particularly tech people. Seed.com is successful. You can do placebos. But you should do the right thing and cut weird claims with no real evidence that are really small brained.

chfalck
1 replies
1h51m

Only 15 people enrolled in the cited study

doctorpangloss
0 replies
19m

I know. There are basically no studies that were run to completion. This one was. Go ahead and look for yourself. However, this study proves that if the effect exists, it is pretty small, and probably placebo. Placebo effects are real. But they affect things like surveys. Actual sleep quality did not seem to change.

cyberax
2 replies
14h32m

One problem with reMarkable tablet that I have, is that the stylus' head is not quite completely immovable. It's a bit loose.

Does the stylus for Daylight have the same issue?

davisr
1 replies
14h13m

It's not supposed to be immovable. The nibs are made of felt, and if they didn't rotate they would wear unevenly and therefore the stylus would give erroneous pressure readings.

cyberax
0 replies
2h5m

I don't mind manually rotating them. But the loose fit makes it hard to do precise calligraphy.

cmrdporcupine
2 replies
21h44m

What if I want this display tech but just as a monitor to use with my existing setup for doing engineering work? (E.g. emacs, tiling window manager, etc.)

The device as it's presented looks like a consumption device ("tablet" etc), but tech like this seems like it'd be most useful for a production device (general purpose computing device, programming/development tools).

I'd like the display, but uncoupled from the lifestyle assumptions that come with a consumer lifestyle tablet accessory...

xnx
0 replies
20h43m

There are a few techniques for using an Android device as a second monitor. I assume those would also work for the Daylight Computer.

msephton
0 replies
21h26m

Keep an eye on the market for RLCD monitors. I read Hanspree are releasing one ~Sept.

brcmthrowaway
2 replies
21h35m

Did you build the display yourself.

msephton
0 replies
21h29m

This was also my question, and I found what seems to be the answer. It's not quite definitive enough for me, but it's the best I've found so far.

Note: it’s 60fps epaper, not off the shelf Eink. We spent years developing what we think is the best epaper display in the world and it’s exclusively manufactured by our display factory in Japan.
boochiboo12
0 replies
21h2m

yes

azinman2
2 replies
21h58m

Looks great, albeit a high price point. Why not a newer Android?

boochiboo12
1 replies
21h50m

just small dev team, updating to new android and porting over all your changes is a tremendous amount of work believe it or not

if launch goes well, the team's gonna get a lot bigger and you can expect us being able to do much more on the AOSP/android side

azinman2
0 replies
19h44m

I did order one, but what happens if you go out of business? What risk do I then have?

I assume this supports the play store, right?

aidenn0
2 replies
20h34m

So this is a trans-reflective LCD screen?

Does it invert the colors when backlit?

It's about 50% heavier than rM2; the battery is almost triple the capacity of rM2; I assume these are related and both due to the use of LCD over eInk?

How many shades of gray?

e-_pusher
1 replies
19h0m

Source: I was the chief hw engineer for this device.

The colors do not invert when the backlight is on, which is great because you can turn on only a slight amount of backlight if you need it, and have it blend to the ambient lighting.

It supports 256 levels of grayscale.

DennisAleynikov
0 replies
1h43m

The large battery also helps it last longer and accounts for the much more powerful chip compared to the remarkable

FactKnower69
2 replies
14h51m

$729

oof. would pay maybe $300 for this, better luck next time

revolution88
1 replies
12h13m

You can't buy regular tablet with this hardware for $300.

zoobab
1 replies
5h14m

Could you add a GPS bluetooth to it? Looking for a way to replace paper maps...

freedomben
0 replies
3h52m

Ooh, that's a damn good idea. I used paper maps for years into the digital availability because I like being able to trace paths, draw, highlight things, and annotate them with info.

This would be a killer feature to me, though admittedly is quite niche. If the hardware gets a GPS, the app can be taken care of :-)

sh1mmer
1 replies
17h25m

You mentioned RLCDs does this mean the screen technology is in the same family as transflective screens?

I have a OLPC and a Toshiba R500 which have this kind of screen and they sorta kinda do work in sunlight but less so now than the newer super bright iPad screens.

I’m curious if you think you have this down if that means there is a road to color in the future.

Benanov
0 replies
4h36m

Came here to ask the same question. The OLPC Screen's "transflective" mode was absolutely amazing when it came out EIGHTEEN years ago in 2006.

I mourn that the tech was never commercialized and that some company is sitting on the patents.

I think it's time to boot the little computer that could, see what the latest distro is for it, and turn it into an E-Reader.

nathan_compton
1 replies
8h44m

If it doesn't run linux, its not a computer.

freedomben
0 replies
3h37m

It runs Android (which uses linux).

Steelmanning though, I imagine you are saying somethign like "if I can't load my own linux distribution on it, then it's not a computer" then I very much agree. OP has said elsewhere in the thread that they will provide bootloader unlocking and you can put LineageOS or whatever you want on it! For me that was the last thing I needed to get me to buy.

mikhailt
1 replies
21h26m

I watched the videos here: https://daylightco.gorgias.help/en-US#article-509983

But it looks like it suffers from backlight bleeding if the screen brightness is at medium or full. I'm a bit concerned about that, can you help explain why that is happening.

boochiboo12
0 replies
21h20m

those videos were shot on pre-production units. we may still not be perfect, but it should be a lot better on our most recent / PVT / production units

we'll update the videos once launch calms down!

legohead
1 replies
16h2m

For me the main benefit of EInk, besides the daylight viewing, is battery life. How does your epaper compare to EInk or an iPad? I realize it wont be as efficient, running at 60fps, but I'm curious if it's that much better than a regular tablet display.

mdp2021
0 replies
9h2m

it wont be as efficient

E-Ink is definitely not efficient for "animation". It does not consume power in static context being bistable, but switching dot state is very costly. So it all depends on the proportion "static:updating".

jsheard
1 replies
19h53m

FYI there's a typo on the product page, "blacklight" instead of "backlight". I assume that's not a branding thing since it's referred to as a backlight elsewhere.

freedomben
0 replies
3h55m

That could be a great feature. You can use your tablet to find cat pee and other undesirables on your carpet, or just set the mood for a party

jojule
1 replies
21h40m

I would love to see terminal/unix being part of the story. I realize that one can install Termux, but telling the story without it would be super attractive for developers. It would also further differentiate from iPad.

Any thoughts on this for us developers?

freedomben
0 replies
3h14m

GP has said elsewhere that they are going to provide bootloader unlocking, so alternative OSes should be possible.

darreninthenet
1 replies
20h57m

What connectivity will it have? Specifically asking about iCloud and Dropbox...

xnx
0 replies
20h46m

It sounds like it can run any Android app, so Dropbox should definitely work.

msephton
0 replies
21h19m

it's not eink

andrewmutz
1 replies
3h42m

Can you use VS Code on it? Presumably using a remote back end like github codespaces?

DennisAleynikov
0 replies
1h38m

Yes and you could use vscode.dev to edit local files as well

Source: (I have been doing it all along on the daylight during development)

Zambyte
1 replies
7h4m

Does this device have a locked bootloader?

Edit: I just saw your other comment that "you will release tools to unlock the bootloader". What is the timeline for that? Can you do it today?

freedomben
0 replies
3h46m

Can you do it today?

:-D

I like your style! What's involved in such a thing? Since I bailed from Windows Phone 6.5 (after Microsoft broke every promise and turned my expensive and capable hardware into a paper weight by shutting down the store and not upgrading us to WP7 like they promised, but I digress) I've always bought Nexus, OnePlus, or Pixel devices where bootloader is easily unlockable. I did try the Moto X developer edition back in the day which required me to use their website to get an unlock key (still sad that Moto retreated on the openness/unlockability. It could have been a great long relationship Moto).

So, how complicated is a tool to unlock the bootloader?

KennyBlanken
1 replies
10h57m

Why is there zero information about your company on the website? Especially given you want people to give you nearly a grand for something that hasn't even entered production yet?

"About us: A more caring computer company"? Are you serious? Stop trying to be "cute." Even in you HN comment you don't tell us your name. What's with all the secrecy?

mdp2021
0 replies
8h57m

Even in you HN comment you don't tell us your name. What's with all the secrecy?

It's in the profile.

Jarwain
1 replies
17h35m

RLCD, so the screen itself is transparent? If it were rendering an image, and a spotlight shown through it, would it project the image effectively?

I've had some silly little art projects that I'd love to try this screen for, if you have any spares/prototypes or anything you wouldn't mind selling or sharing!

ThrowawayR2
0 replies
14h0m

What you're describing exists already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projection_panel. You can find plenty on eBay.

"If it were rendering an image, and a spotlight shown through it, would it project the image effectively?"

No, because shining a spotlight through it wouldn't result in an in-focus image. Draw something on some transparent plastic wrap and shine a light through it and observe what occurs.

7thaccount
1 replies
21h57m

Is there a video of someone playing Doom?

kennethrc
0 replies
21h54m

... or Crysis

wellthisisgreat
0 replies
15h21m

Hey congrats!!

This is super interesting.

What is the difference between Daylight and e.g. Supernote or Scribe? So any of the currently available e-ink notepads?

You said it’s e-paper not e-ink but what’s the practical difference? Does it still feel like writing on paper or less so?

What kind of pen can I use with it? LAMY Pom is ok for example?

tw04
0 replies
2h57m

Question: what sets this apart from say, boox? And in comparison, it seems a battery life of days feels a bit low - is that just a conservative estimate? Is that days with all-day use?

Note: I have literally nothing to do with boox other than being a relatively happy customer, even if I do wonder about how much spyware is in their firmware. On that note - is there any guarantees around software updates? The good and the bad of android is the constant updates. Looks like this is on 13 which is soon to be two releases back - are there plans to support future major revisions or is 13 all this is getting?

trelane
0 replies
20h16m

Is the source available? Is it locked, or can we use our own firmware?

torginus
0 replies
10h57m

Hi just a minor nitpick - I've used devices like this, and one major complaint about them is that the tips of the Wacom styluses are incredibly fragile (about as bad as pencil lead).

It has been a recurring issue for me that they got damaged while traveling with no way to easily replace them.

If you could engineer a way to protect them (like a proper cap or a clicky pen mechanism) that would be a very handy improvement.

titzer
0 replies
14h24m

Really cool product! I want this for the display on a fully-featured laptop, not a reader. I want to code in the sun. All I want is a sweet sweet terminal and IDE. Is that on the roadmap?

timmg
0 replies
17h29m

How hard will it be to scale up resolution/dpi with your tech?

Hopefully you’ll be successful enough to make more devices. Just curious if there is a path to “retina” displays.

ta988
0 replies
19h32m

Can it be rooted and boot unlocked?

slashtom
0 replies
19h49m

Concerned a little bit about the lower DPI (190), how does aliasing compare to lets say Remarkable 2 (224). I find the Kindle Scribe is at 300 DPI.

Handwriting with the Scribe is amazing to me, hoping to see or understand how it compares.

seekage
0 replies
19h59m

Instant buy. Love the design and mission. Where can I get the wooden stand?

saidinesh5
0 replies
12h51m

Wish you the best with your release.

I hope you release smaller and separate display modules too, so that they can be added to a laptop/phone case... Especially since a lot of new phones these days support USB C display port..

Also would be nice to see the pebble watch resurrected..

roughly
0 replies
18h15m

I'm not sure if it's mentioned on the site, but one thing I'd really love to see that could well nudge this into the "buy" category for me is some focus on repairability - I'd very much like to be able to swap the screen, battery, board, etc. in case the worst happens, rather than having to junk the whole device.

robbiep
0 replies
19h42m

Congratulations! This looks awesome! Very excited to get my hands on one!

pvsnp
0 replies
19h0m

This is very cool. I've been waiting for something like this for a while. Since it's so new, are you allowing any hackability like ReMarkable? I'd like to use it instead of Amazon Scribe and integrate against it but $729 is bit steep if it relies on an external service or something.

Oh, since it's Android under the hood, I see that kindle just works?

how's the battery life?

ptero
0 replies
18h18m

This sounds great, I would love to buy one!

Is there a static specs page? The site seems to have been hugged to near-death but even if not it would be great to know the basics not in a video form: size, weight, OS (e.g., can I run my favorite FB2 reader on it), interfaces, etc.

I am totally willing to lean forward and buy one, but from the current state of the site I cannot even figure out if the screen is 4" or 9" or something in between.

prokopton
0 replies
17h1m

I was ready to enter my credit card number but there's no shipping to Japan.

pjf
0 replies
19h17m

Do you know - and can share - how this compares vs the Onyx Boox Tab Ultra C Pro?

I guess it might be a very competitive alternative to your product, yet it can't reach 60+fps and is sketchy in terms of security, imho.

paranoidrobot
0 replies
19h5m

Can you please have whomever is looking after your site test it on mobile in dark mode.

It's almost completely unreadable for me. Dark grey text on dark grey background. Light grey text on warm white.

Device: Pixel 7 Pro, dark mode

Browser: Firefox Mobile.

owickstrom
0 replies
10h2m

Looks awesome! Can you use it with third-party external keyboards? Bluetooth or USB-C?

notorandit
0 replies
8h59m

What is the expected useful lifespan of such a display? I mean, how long will it last with at least 50 fps and no dead "pixels"?

no_wizard
0 replies
5h10m

What’s the chance of a color version of this product coming out anytime soon?

ngrilly
0 replies
9h13m

What is the autonomy? How many hours of "normal" use should we expect?

netbioserror
0 replies
18h50m

Give it to me with a Linux-compatible chip/board and I am there. This is the display of the solar-powered off grid computer, and succeeding generations will be incredible. And oh yeah, make a phone. With your distraction-free OS.

nappy
0 replies
16h1m

I'm glad to see so much interest in devices like this. I hope they succeed. I own an Onyx Boox Tab Ultra, which I've been enjoying tremendously, and specs seem to compare favorably to this.

https://shop.boox.com/products/tab

Doesn't seem to be for sale at the moment, but the version with a color epaper layer is: https://www.amazon.com/BOOX-Tab-Ultra-Pro-Digital/dp/B0CHM54...

Do you have more details on your display technology and how it performs? Any demo videos? It sounds like this is the key selling point?

I'd also be curious to see more on the software side of this product - stock android isn't perfect for an eiknk display.

micah_chatt
0 replies
2h59m

First, this looks amazing, congrats! The primary reason I've held off on buying an eink tablet (remarkable/kindle scribe) is because much of the non-leisure reading I do for work requires enterprise-friendly features like MDM and encryption, and even with that plugging into a laptop to sync every document is a major UX hurdle.

Are you thinking about this primarily as a consumer device with, or do you want to go after those business applications sooner than later?

Disclosure: I work at AWS, own a Kindle Oasis, but have nothing to do with Kindle or devices.

manmal
0 replies
10h59m

Let me second some other comments here - I would absolutely buy a 24“ display right away. Ideally a colored version. The available options (like Sun Vision) seem sketchy at best, eg their UK rep reached out to me and never responded back - no way I‘d pay them this much without ever seeing the display first.

m1sta_
0 replies
4h44m

Please make a version that has the bezel blend in with the screen. It will make it look much more clean and more modern. The remarkable's thin body and bezels are key to why it is so desirable.

lokimedes
0 replies
6h4m

Lovely product you have there! I have a love hate relationship with my Remarkable, the distraction free UI fits my brain well, but their complete lack of an API makes it miss the mark of becoming my productivity driver by a light year. Basing your product on Android, I fear the pure distraction free selling point is at risk? How do you see the ecosystem around the device as it mature? And also, obviously, are you emulating the cloud approach that Remarkable has taken, and if so, will there be an API for me to slip my autogenerated daily schedule on to it? :)

lloeki
0 replies
11h48m

If I may indulge in some silly OCD feedback: the hero animation with pages turning has the shadow on the top right line up with the corner, which makes it as if the device has an inset chamfered bezel, which I feel is of disservice to the device. That tripped me up hard until I looked at the other side where the shadow is hitting halfway.

Anyway, congratulations! I both hope you succeed and that it helps drag the 60Hz eink needle forward across the industry.

llm_trw
0 replies
19h59m

Will you offer a 13 inch version?

What about computer screens?

And a color version?

For background I have a boox max, a dasung 253 bw and dasung color 253. Happy to spend even more money on a new generation of devices.

llamaimperative
0 replies
4h52m

Hi, I'm a huge fan of the Supernote. I bought it over the Remarkable based on the pdf reading/annotating capabilities, but I think this can be much much better (especially in the age of AI). Do you have any videos or content on the pdf reader for Daylight?

lelanthran
0 replies
59m

This is brilliant. Assuming successful revenue stream, are there going to be any further developments?

I would love this as a monitor for coding (I use a plain black on white scheme in vim), for writing and for reading.

kenver
0 replies
8h22m

Looks like a fantastic device. Any chance of getting these to Australia? I can’t see a shipping option.

johnfn
0 replies
18h43m

Very impressive. Can I use it as an external display? I assume not, but that would strongly push me towards buying one.

jart
0 replies
17h9m

Can you make a 60fps paper monitor? I want to have a giant ones of those setup on my desk as a Xerox Alto-style display for my terminal sessions.

initramfs
0 replies
15h21m

Very cool. Been hoping for something like this. Also check out https://www.modos.tech/

ikari_pl
0 replies
4h44m

I already have Nova Air C, and a color Bigme tablet. I don't think any of the two was more expensive.

The ePaper response time is tempting. But no color over "back"light temperature or no color support would be a step back.

I fondly remember the best smartwatch I ever had - the Pebble Time, and its 60FPS color display. Can we get a version like this too?

Try to change my mind that I need it.

ijaack94
0 replies
8h43m

Hey there, congrats! I was really looking forward to a tablet made this way.

Two Qs: 1) is the refresh rate locked at 60 fps? Or does it vary between 60 and 120? This is a big deal for me, as I suffer eye strain from low refresh rate displays 2) Why does it cost 'so much'? I mean, what's included in the 729$?

htk
0 replies
21h2m

Congratulations on the new tech, looks impressive! Any plans of developing monitors or portable displays to use with a laptop/smartphone in the sunlight?

gcanyon
0 replies
13h40m

Is there a description somewhere of the actual tech?What's the reason you were able to invent fast-refresh e-ink-like displays when no one else could for over two decades?

fennecbutt
0 replies
5h1m

Given it has a matte finish for writing, which is super cool, but what about wear and tear?

Writing tactility is provided by friction from the matte surface, wouldn't this wear down or scratch over time? If so is the front "glass" bonded to the display, can it be replaced or refurbished?

Super freaking cool tho, was a sad day when pebble died (sharp MiP display) and I've always wanted to play with epaper some more, such a shame eink basically tried to corner the industry for so long. Do you ever intend to sell display modules using this tech for makers and the like?

epaperq
0 replies
20h9m

Can you post a photo or video of a side-by-side comparison of the Remarkable 2 and the Daylight Computer?

Right now it’s hard to actually tell from your marketing materials what the screen looks like

endofreach
0 replies
19h53m

Respect. Not easy to do hardware. I will order one for sure to try it out. Very interesting.

A few questions that i hope to get an answer to:

How did you finance the company? How much money did you spend on R&D & production etc?

What was the initial idea you had? What were the biggest challenges before you knew for sure you got the final product?

duttaoindril
0 replies
18h15m

I pre-ordered! Huge fan and have been checking it out for a while.

My biggest question and use case is about handwritten notes. Like other paper tablets (Supernote, box, remarkable, etc) have custom drawing/writing apps that sync.

I understand y'all have a fancy custom Android OS, but can I expect to see my notes on other devices, and does it have cool features like handwriting to text auto translation, etc?

I'm very excited! I hope I get my daylight soon.

cyanydeez
0 replies
19h0m

Please publish a clearer complete spec sheet.

cush
0 replies
22h53m

I'm so rooting for you! Got in on Batch 2

When can we expect our favourite tech vloggers to share their thoughts on review units?

crhicko
0 replies
21h15m

Will there be any additional cost like a subscription to use the features of the device?

chuckjchen
0 replies
16h12m

Congrats on the launch! The tablet is what I've been looking for. Any plan to develop a laptop? I'll readily dump my MBP for it.

bpye
0 replies
11h58m

What are the physical dimensions?

bloopernova
0 replies
20h40m

I've been impressed with the Kindle Scribe I recently got. The drawing and note taking is really nice. However, you have to email yourself PDFs to get the information out of the tablet!

Will we be able to get data off the tablet easily? Will there be documented APIs or other automation available?

behringer
0 replies
11h56m

Blue light free. Does this mean the design is compromised or is it just irrelevant to an eReader?

bariswheel
0 replies
12h34m

I'm surprised by this and it sort of came out of nowhere, how'd you all beat Amazon and other big tech to the market?

barbariangrunge
0 replies
4h11m

The only thing that gives me pause is the android os, which makes me uncomfortable for privacy reasons

az226
0 replies
10h55m

With Amazon likely releasing a Kindle Color soon, do you think your tablet will offer color any time soonish?

arcwhite
0 replies
17h14m

I tried to order - looks like you're not shipping to Australia? Any plans there?

amykhar
0 replies
3h0m

Would love one - but I was recently burned by an expensive Android e-ink tablet with janky software and meh hardware. I need to be able to touch and play with one before I'd even consider buying it. I hope you make it into retail stores.

amarant
0 replies
15h15m

Any chance you'll make a laptop with this display in the future? Coding in the sun is a wet dream of mine..

all2
0 replies
13h49m

I'd like to put a custom OS on it. Will that be possible? Most tablets have the bootloader locked out by default, and that cannot quench my thirst for Linux.

alberth
0 replies
18h42m

This is amazing. Congrats.

Question: am I understanding it right that the only potential downside is color accuracy might be off but you get all the other benefits as stated?

(If so, that seems like a great compromise and net better)

achow
0 replies
1d

It does look great.

Any plans of supplying the ePaper display to OEM's like Amazon, Remarkable, etc.?

a1o
0 replies
20h47m

Can you make a screen to replace the one from Gameboy using your technology?

a-saleh
0 replies
5h11m

How is the Android experience stacking up?

I might actually be in a market for something like this, as I recently cracked my old Boox ... but as I did use few e-ink devices, there was often problem with running Google Play.

I do understand the need for customizing the shell, even with fast fremerate, it still is a Black/White device, but that often means sacrifices had to be made in the accessibility to the rest of the ecosystem and I am not really in the mood to side-load apps :D

ZainRiz
0 replies
15h13m

This is so cool! Now, I didn't notice anything about waterproofing on your website.

Any plans to come out with a version I don't have to worry about getting wet?

ShayNehmad
0 replies
2h37m

Just clicked on Order and Checkout, but looks like there's no shipping option to Israel. Any update on when that will be possible?

PontifexMinimus
0 replies
2h52m

How hard would it be to have a colour screen?

MrDresden
0 replies
12h20m

The webpage seems to be broken on Firefox Android.

As soon as the user clicks the burger menu and then dismisses it, scrolling is non functional.

Otherwise congratulations on the launch.

MisterTea
0 replies
3h4m

Any chance a 3rd party OS can be flashed?

Fatnino
0 replies
14h23m

Your website crashes android Firefox after a few seconds

Aeolun
0 replies
17h24m

Since you make it in Japan, can you sell it to me in JPY? Trying to buy anything in $ these days hurts my wallet xD

999900000999
0 replies
20h52m

Congratulations on the launch, what was your hardware journey like. Did you have a hard time raising capital to manufacure prototypes.

I'm working on a small hobbyist project right now,and actually getting it built hasn't been fun.

Would love to hear your advice.

1oooqooq
0 replies
4h30m

why not a developer version so people can get Linux on it and you will have the true eink tablet killer?

do you plan to monetize on customer lock in (only reason amazon and google don't open their android forks)? or fear of tech being stolen by having drivers open?

0xKumi
0 replies
9h9m

Hey there boochiboo12, I have been waiting for a product like this being a long time kindle user and E-Ink enjoyer. So ofc I have been waiting for a product like this for a while. I went through the website and tried to order it but seems like this isn't available for sale in India. Any idea when it will be available here for sale?

turtlebits
20 replies
21h26m

IMO, the software will be the most important part of the device, not necessarily the screen.

What makes the Remarkable great is that it's functionality (while limited) makes for an excellent experience.

Any more details on what apps will be built in and designed for the device? (not just 3rd party Android apps that will feel like any other tablet).

Also - I would order this immediately to support more e-ink devices, but the display is too small for me - at least 13" to display full page documents.

eli
7 replies
20h53m

Aren't there already Android tablets with eink screens?

jsheard
5 replies
20h30m

There are but OP doesn't appear to be using e-ink, it's much too fast to be that. I would guess it's an unorthodox form of LCD display.

CrazyStat
4 replies
20h15m

It’s reflective LCD (RLCD).

jsheard
1 replies
19h56m

But with a backlight, which is novel I think?

eli
1 replies
19h27m

Ohh neat. Like the Playdate

nicksergeant
0 replies
2h26m

Yeah the Playdate screen is lovely, but pretty rough without a backlight.

CrazyStat
0 replies
20h38m

Yes. I have a Boox, and I’m quite happy with it. I don’t use many android apps, but the killer app for me (why I got it over a Remarkable or Kindle Scribe) is being able to run a Zotero-compatible app (Zoo for Zotero) with bidirectional sync for reading and marking up PDFs.

boochiboo12
7 replies
21h24m

we've built our own PDF parser / renderer, so we have a pretty good beta PDF reader app we're building

next up would be epub reader / support

and then building our own notetaker & typewriter app (though google docs, lex.page, IA writer are pretty good)

and many more services and apps, like actually finally good handwriting recognition

goatking
2 replies
19h52m

Why PDF first? Isn't reading Ebooks (in ebook format) the main use case for such devices?

turtlebits
0 replies
19h34m

Likely to focus on use cases for their display tech. Ebooks are already solved and faster refresh won't meaningfully improve the experience over other devices.

KeplerBoy
0 replies
19h47m

Once you're approaching regular paper size, PDF is king.

There are just so, so many documents out there which were laid out with A4 paper in mind, which can't really be converted to any other format with reasonable effort. Just think of every research paper published ever.

People who are primarily reading books aren't really in the market for this kind of device. You can read books just fine on any old kindle and it's far more comfortable on a smaller, lighter device.

rattray
1 replies
15h18m

Is the kindle app not supported?

jasonlotito
0 replies
1h25m

Is Kindle on Android? Yes.

These are the apps they are specifically building. But all Android apps are availabe for it as well.

amelius
0 replies
19h44m

Why not use existing libraries, like Poppler?

BaculumMeumEst
0 replies
19h26m

Is there an SDK or open source libraries that you've developed for the device that developers could leverage? It seems that you will support the android app store, but will there be a separate Sol:OS store for more tailored apps?

smusamashah
1 replies
20h45m

KOReader is great for Eink devices. I used it both on my Remarkable and Kindle. It's made for paper like displays. It already has an android version.

jcul
0 replies
10h22m

Yeah it's so good. I used it on my really old kindle paperwhite and now my kobo Clara, which I've had for years.

CodeWriter23
0 replies
21h7m

I had a remarkable for like a day before I retuned it. Couldn’t write-to-text into a PDF. Could type into a PDF or could write-to-text in their writing app. But not in a PDF. It was also intolerably slow.

sparrish
14 replies
1d1h

Android 13 with 8GB RAM. I'm not familiar with the MediaTek Helio G99 CPU.

Will this perform well or just be another underpowered tablet for $800?

15155
4 replies
1d1h

I haven't been impressed by any Mediatek part to date.

sparrish
2 replies
22h15m

Who's "us"? Are you affiliated with Daylight Computer?

jv95
0 replies
22h4m

Based on their other post in this thread they’re the founder of daylight computer.

Workaccount2
0 replies
21h59m

Its the founder.

bottom999mottob
3 replies
1d

At this price point, I'd much rather have an portable e-paper external display at a cheaper price. Seems quite underpowered

floundy
2 replies
21h33m

Indeed! A Waveshare portable e-ink monitor is $499.99 for the 10.3" size, almost identical to the Daylight's 10.5" display. The external display would also outlast this tablet device for sure.

And if I'm reading the MediaTek Helio G99 specs correctly, it seems to have similar raw performance to a Raspberry Pi 5. One could easily put together a little "productivity PC" using a Pi (or a Windows mini PC), a power bank, and have the added benefit of full-fledged desktop apps rather than Android versions of them.

I wanted to want to impulse buy this thing. But the above analysis, as well as the lack of any real hands-on 3rd party video-based reviews will be a no from me.

boochiboo12
1 replies
20h50m

if you make something comparable for $729, i will buy it from you x 10

not kidding

its hard to get things made at low batch sizes with good economics!

(third party video based reviews coming in the weeks ahead! youtubers hopefully will actually reply to us now after the attention of this launch)

PS this review does a good job of describing the perf / tradeoffs of the G99 https://www.notebookcheck.net/Xiaomi-Redmi-Pad-review-Afford...

we're gadget nerds, its not as bad as you think :)

in fact, no early users have complained about performance at all, either to us or on twitter

we're open to feedback on how to improve the next gen! all we ask is to judge based on actual performance on intended workloads and not specs nor crysis lol

xnx
0 replies
20h36m

I hope MKBHD does a review of it.

dtx1
2 replies
1d1h

2x Arm Cortex-A76 up to 2.2GHz > 6x Arm Cortex-A55 up to 2.0GHz > LPDDR4X > Arm Mali-G57 MC2

Not great, not terrible. I'd say lower middle class phone, roughly equivalent to the Snapdragon 680. The real question is longterm software and security support. I'd bet good money this will se one android update and security patches late or never at best.

xnx
1 replies
20h35m

They've said the bootloader is unlocked so it should never be totally obsolete.

snvzz
0 replies
18h19m

comments here promise an unlocking tool in the future.

This is very different from shipping unlocked. Until the tool is available, I would not go anywhere near this.

ranger_danger
0 replies
16h50m

define well

jeffhuys
0 replies
9h30m

8GB is underpowered on Android? Oof.

normalaccess
6 replies
1d1h

Hmmm, a little disappointed but I'm I still very interested. My favorite smart watch was a pebble and they used a transflective display, I loved it. If this is more of the same but refined and bigger count me in.

boochiboo12
5 replies
1d

It is a Godzilla pebble watch

I hope you will be pleased

modeless
4 replies
1d

I hope you don't meet the same fate as Pebble. Maybe you can do a watch next?

boochiboo12
3 replies
21h43m

need more feedback on what the use case / killer apps to nail of a 'pebble watch returns' would be

modeless
2 replies
21h27m

Week+ battery life, truly always on, sunlight readable, much smaller size/thickness and thus more comfortable than all other smart watches.

For me, the use case of a smartwatch is notifications. It lets me keep my phone on silent all the time without missing important messages or calls. Proper filtering is important so you don't get notification spam on your wrist but some notifications truly are important and checking them without taking out my phone, and even sending a quick reply, is awesome. I also use the "extend unlock" feature of Android which works with any Bluetooth device but especially well with one that is always on your wrist. Locating a lost phone is another great feature. Timers and alarms are a given of course. Maps navigation directions on your wrist can also be useful (but you get this for free with a proper implementation of notifications).

To me the paradox of the wearables market is that it seems like the only reason people buy them is as fitness trackers which they are actually pretty bad at. The numbers they report might as well be made up in many cases, and the weird metrics they provide aren't useful. The sensors make the watch thicker and less comfortable too. Meanwhile, it's actually super useful to have phone notifications on your wrist, but people don't seem interested, and e.g. Android Wear really sucks at it. (Can't speak for the Apple Watch as I don't have an iPhone, but I've always felt that the hardware design was ugly.)

delecti
1 replies
19h17m

Look into Amazfit watches. They're about as close as you can get to a Pebble these days. It also has a bunch of fitness stuff (GPS, steps, heart rate), but you can mostly just ignore that. Mine is just for notifications, stopwatch, and telling the time, and a charge still lasts more than 2 weeks on the original 6 year old battery (I've worn it roughly 23/7 since April 2018).

floundy
0 replies
7h56m

The newer Amazfit Bips sadly don't have transflective displays and do not last a month like the original Bip line used to. Why they killed off the unique feature of this product line and made it another generic LCD smartwatch when Amazfit already has several product lines of those I have no clue.

imiric
0 replies
19h46m

Thank you.

I still think that calling it e-paper is disingenuous. My initial impression was that this was some e-ink breakthrough, but it's really just a backlit monochrome LCD. I'm not sure how they can claim that it's "non-emissive", when it literally uses a backlight. An LCD with an amber filter doesn't come close to the readability of e-ink, so I'm not sure what advancements they've made to make it feel like "magic" or "paper-like". Shelling out $729 to find out how it looks in person, based on a slick marketing site and positive comments from "beta testers", is a hard ask.

dang
0 replies
1d

Thanks—we've changed the title from "Daylight: 60fps E-ink Tablet" now.

cal85
0 replies
1d

I don’t see the word transflective anywhere on that Reddit post, and don’t really know what it means. Where did you get that info, or is it obvious from looking at it?

blamestross
0 replies
1d1h

I'm totally ok with that and actual communications from the company are very clear about what it is. Looks like this is out of their control.

spaceisballer
7 replies
1d1h

It’s funny that Tech is the source of and solution to all of our problems. But my real critique is that all portable devices these days are around $1000 dollars. I’m sure this display makes the device expensive, why can’t we just have a more humane workflow in our current devices instead of buying a new device?

normalaccess
5 replies
1d1h

For some, e-ink displays are the holy grail of tech. I have several e-ink devices but the real hangup is the refresh rate. If this solves that problem in a meaningful way it could be game changing.

jll29
1 replies
1d1h

I agree, refresh rate is an issue that is more important than energy usage, colors or life time (apparently e-ink dies quicker when viewing videos).

I'm just experimenting with a USB-based external e-ink display to see if it is capable of reading/writing/editing technical documents (started last week), using a device with a 50% more affordable price point. My first impression was I needed to increase the font size to be able to work. Let's see how it goes.

rchaud
0 replies
1d1h

Video forces e-ink screens to redraw the scene 30 times per second. For static text like an ebook, the display redrawing the scene far less frequently, maybe once every 30 seconds, if that's how long it takes to read a page of text.

cush
1 replies
23h11m

Some are comparing their display tech to Pebble, which was so threatening to the growing smartwatch market that Fitbit purchased the company and (for reasons I don't know) took all their IP and shelved it. I wonder if Daylight will be able to keep their mission when Amazon comes knocking

keane
0 replies
21h45m

Happily they’re a public benefit corporation

rchaud
0 replies
1d1h

Images look terrible on e-ink, so that's an issue as well.

cush
0 replies
23h20m

The most expensive part of a device is the display. This is a bleeding-edge, first -generation, low-production-run display on top of an Android tablet. If it does what the demos show, it's the device I've been waiting a decade for and is totally worth $800, to me. Also, the price includes a Wacom pen. Hopefully they can get the costs down, but the price seems completely fair.

cookiengineer
7 replies
12h8m

This is really a nice product, but I won't order it unless SolOS and its firmware and drivers are open sourced.

I've probably spent far more than 8000 bucks over the years for devices like this, only to have to throw them away eventually because their software got abandoned and they've been so proprietary that they can only function as an expensive brick on the shelf.

If the software is closed source, I'd recommend everyone to stay away from any product like this. It is a deal breaker for me now, and it took a lot of cash and hype to realize it.

Products like this are not a mainstream product, which makes them high risk for their investors. And you have to minimize risk by demanding open source.

infotainment
2 replies
7h41m

While fully open would of course be ideal, I'd settle for an unlockable bootloader.

I'm guessing whatever random extras "SolOS" grafts onto Android are probably fairly extraneous, and any vanilla AOSP-based ROM would be perfectly cromulent, provided it was possible to flash it in the first place.

cookiengineer
0 replies
7h21m

I am not sure you are aware how many years of development time are necessary to reverse engineer a driver on mobile platforms.

For me that is where I draw the line, without drivers I won't touch it. I've wasted enough of my free time trying to get Cyanogen run on fucked up proprietary platforms.

If the drivers aren't open source, the company won't give a damn about the platform anyways because they already did not comply with the law of the license of the tools they stole (read as: linux kernel license) already.

Nifty3929
2 replies
2h42m

I think you're missing out. A different perspective is to just see these devices as temporary and enjoy them for as long as they last. Let's say you can expect 2 years from the device, and it costs $480. That's $20/mo - maybe that's worth it or maybe it's not for any particular device. But at least you can make the choice that way.

chias
0 replies
1h35m

I think this way of looking at it is valid, although I don't personally like it very much because it generates a large amount of e-waste.

Regardless, using your model on this device: it costs $725, and if you buy now, won't ship until September. So if you assume 2 years from the device starting today, that's about $35/month.

PCP7
0 replies
1h26m

I don't know how you came up with this mentality, but its really consumer hostile IMO. You are buying a device not a service.

xandrius
0 replies
3h37m

I support this motion.

I'd definitely splurge on this bur I want to actually own the device if anything goes wrong with the company.

NBJack
6 replies
1d1h

Oof. I hope the tablet is better than the website. I think I need to switch to a device with a dedicated GPU to see it right. My laptop is struggling, and it's running a 12th gen i5. They seem to be using a video provider that can't keep up either.

Still, the tablet looks exciting, especially since it's based on Android. I'm curious as to how they overcame the refresh rate issue that plagues so many similar displays.

Cyberdog
1 replies
20h27m

Agreed. I don't have faith they can make a usable device if they can't make a usable web page.

Never break, take over, or "fix" scrolling! Never!

jeffhuys
0 replies
9h32m

It shows, to me, that they only tried their website on a "normal" mouse with scrollwheel. My trackpad does (sub-)pixel scrolling guys! I'm used to having full control over websites. Those that take away that control feel sluggish and unprofessional (this JS snippet makes our scrolling cool!), and distracts me away from the (sparse!) content.

tedunangst
0 replies
19h37m

I wonder how well the tablet renders its own homepage.

knowaveragejoe
0 replies
21h51m

It's strange, on an M2 with chrome I often struggle with websites like this. but this one is seamless for me.

GuB-42
0 replies
6h58m

Product pages that hijack scrolling are inexplicably popular.

I hate them, to the point it kills my interest in the product. It looks like an ad, the kind I use an ad blocker for.

Of course you are going to tell me, it is and ad, but come on, if I decided to scroll down, it means I am interested in the product and I want to know more. No need to hook me up with fancy visuals, it is already done, now, I want information, give me information in the way that is easiest to consume. If you want to be fancy, have a (not autoplaying!) video, but these sites are the worst of both worlds. They are not as cool as videos can be, and they do a terrible job at being informative.

I guess that since Google and the likes with all their analytics do that, it means it works, but to me, it is a turn off. I was kind of interested in that tablet, now I realize I probably don't need it. I probably wouldn't have bought it anyways, but there was a little spark, and you just killed it with that website.

rrr_oh_man
5 replies
10h44m

All the best to you!

Just one little thing: I think you're killing your conversions.

The website is janky even on my M1 Macbook Air. Not sure the scroll hijacking stuff is really needed to get your point across either.

(Check it yourself https://pagespeed.web.dev/analysis?url=daylightcomputer.com)

jeffhuys
1 replies
9h36m

The scroll hijacking turned me off. I have an M3 so it was pretty smooth (not ProMotion smooth but kinda smooth), but I just want to SCROLL a page! Especially with a trackpad (which I exclusively use). Not blocking my scroll halfway through, it's just so jarring. Yes, cool tech, but we want simple websites. Your product should wow us, no special tricks needed.

rrr_oh_man
0 replies
8h19m

Yes, cool tech, but we want simple websites. Your product should wow us, no special tricks needed.

Agree.

Many times when my teams or I built products we had came up with cool CSS tricks or visual pizzaz during the creative process. Swishes, swirls, micro interactions, confetti, particle animations, and all that jazz. Absolutely adore stuff like this.

But: you really need to put yourself into the chanclas of a new user. Of a person who's on the page for the very first time. During their lunch break. While waiting in line for a coffee. Ask yourself: Is that really needed?

And cut mercilessly.

Side note: You can observe a different flavour of that same thing in great screenplays / movies. Nothing is there just for the sake of it; every scene promotes the plot and tells us things about the characters. [0] Compare this to the drawn out, flashy, soulless action sequences you see in DC action flicks or Matrix 2 and beyond.

[0] E.g., excellent analysis of one of those case here: Pirates of the Caribbean - Accidentally Genius (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhdBNVY55oM)

WHA8m
0 replies
7h43m

Smooth enough on my X201 with library wifi. Not a fan of those flashy websites though

NoGravitas
0 replies
3h59m

I opened this link on a mid-range android phone, and it was completely unusable.

1shooner
0 replies
1h53m

I just didn't think there was anything else on the page when scrolling didn't scroll.

ax0ar
5 replies
21h56m

I got super hyped first when I saw all the details. I use a Boox Page and love the device. This would be a super nice addition which could act as a fully functional tablet.

But then I saw the price tag, and that it’s only 190 ppi. That killed it immediately for me. I hated the first few generations of Kindle because of the low resolution display. I think it’s unbearable in an e-ink display. And the price is a bit outrageous for what it offers..

boochiboo12
4 replies
21h53m

i think your feedback is fair. if you're open to a few considerations:

- with monochrome pixels (ie no RGB subpixels), resolution is not really apples to apples.. things look a lot crisper subjectively than their objective resolution spec

i think a bunch of early customers have tweeted out their reactions to resolution/crispness. id encourage you to ask them for their feedback if you were still curious

not claiming its perfect, just that its not as bad as you think it is.

(PS we chose this resolution specifically cuz it results in a larger aperture ratio which enables a brighter screen.. we had other experiments at 220-240ppi, but we couldn't really tell a difference in resolution, and the brightness difference was palpable)

PPS on price - not much we can do here, extremely difficult to get even the price we did on low batch totally new custom displays.. we're proud of what we're able to do, but we understand there's a tesla roadster effect of sorts.. starts our expensive, and successive generations will ride the cost curve down tremendously

but cant get there without early supporters. so you choose anon! more economical samsung, or more pricey (but worth it?) indies like us!

cchance
1 replies
19h12m

As you should be proud its a really cool product, but the price points definitly going to lock you into a very small niche audience, it's just too expensive for me your in the price range of full blown ipad air's and technically more expensive than them, with a cool screen tech, great readability, and paper feel, but... no where near the ecosystem or use cases i'd imagine and again, more expensive.

breakfastduck
0 replies
19h2m

It runs any android app, so that helps towards the ecosystem criticism.

ax0ar
0 replies
9h27m

Thank you for the in depth response. My real concern is seeing rough edges in fonts when you closely. That’s just a flaw that hits me too hard as a designer, and I can’t read anything on such a screen. Based on the viewing distance, screen size and ppi it’s not exactly what’s considered a retina display. I will check the reviews that show it up close and if it’s really good I might as well get one in spite of the price!

VagabundoP
0 replies
13h37m

I noticed the price as well, but was surprised at how low it was for first gen tech.

Really wishing you well and you’ll be on my radar now.

vineyardlabs
4 replies
22h1m

Any more specific numbers on battery life? I see it says "days" on the website, but I'm curious if there's an hours number with usage condition specified (ie, screen on, reading a book, etc.)

e-_pusher
1 replies
21h41m

Source: I was the chief hardware engineer for this device.

Anjan can comment further to see if the team these days has any further optimizations in store, but with my personal Daylight tablet anecdotally, these days I am charging it every other week, and using it for 1-2 hours a day to browse the web and read PDFs. I usually have a low backlight setting on it.

vineyardlabs
0 replies
21h17m

Awesome, thanks!

boochiboo12
1 replies
21h56m

still doing more testing, but some test results:

- reading without amber backlight: 67 hours - youtube without amber backlight: 30 hours - reading with 30% amber brightness: 30 hours

vineyardlabs
0 replies
21h17m

That sounds fantastic, thanks.

nathcd
4 replies
1d1h

Looks nice! I think I'd only get it if I could use it as a monitor though. Displaying more than grayscale colors would be a plus too. Still glad to see it though.

boochiboo12
2 replies
21h40m

we aim to build a monitor, but hardware companies arent very hot for VCs, so cash flow from selling the tablet is the primary way we are going to fund building a monitor, phone, and laptop

cush
0 replies
21h23m

So good to hear! This seems like it would be right up the alley for a company like Nothing Phone

e-_pusher
0 replies
19h7m

You can use an app called Duet Display on it. It works quite well (can’t remember the exact ms latency now)

mattkevan
4 replies
1d

Yeah this looks like a cool device. I love my Remarkable, but the lack of backlight and slow refresh rate means it’s not as versatile as it could be.

A tablet that has similar screen properties to eink but with a backlight and 60fps would be much more usable, especially at night.

edderkopp
3 replies
20h34m

Indeed. Another advantage of this tablet over Remarkable is that it should be possible to set up synchronization with many more cloud services, including Nextcloud. Remarkable is limited to the biggest commercial cloud providers.

funksta
2 replies
19h23m

Furthermore, reMarkable doesn't actually sync anything. You can download files from the cloud but it's a one-way, user-initiated thing

mattkevan
1 replies
10h22m

I dunno, it seems to sync your notebooks back up to the cloud & other devices pretty well.

It’s £3/month after the first year, but it still syncs. https://remarkable.com/store/connect

funksta
0 replies
4h45m

Sorry, you're right in terms of their own cloud. I meant the syncing with Google Drive, Dropbox, etc, which is quite limited

londons_explore
4 replies
15h52m

This screen, but built into a proper laptop please.

I want to actually do work from outdoors.

Benanov
3 replies
4h34m

The only laptop that fits the bill is the OLPC XO. The XO-1 is 18 years old...

and yes I did work outside a few times, with rdesktop

londons_explore
2 replies
4h31m

I still use my XO-1 for work I can do with a console (via SSH with vi, tmux, etc).

Alas, a web browser is kinda required for modern dev work, and an 18 year old machine with 128 MB of ram doesn't cut it. rdesktop, x forwarding, vnc, etc are all too slow.

I considered removing the screen and trying to transplant it to a modern machine, but it looks like many months work to rebuild the electrical interfaces and custom pixel layouts etc.

AlanYx
1 replies
4h3m

There's a small DIY community who take XO-1 displays and installs them in old ThinkPads. It may not be as challenging as it first appears.

londons_explore
0 replies
3h55m

oooh - any links?

dot5xdev
4 replies
21h47m

I'm a current owner of a Ratta Supernote A5X. I use the Supernote all the time. I previously had a Remarkable 2, but thankfully Remarkable added a subscription which made me look elsewhere and led me to the Supernote.

This seems right up my alley. Although, $800 seems steep.

The new Supernote A5X2 is due this year... at probably half the price? Granted it doesn't have the 60fps display, but it definitely has a bunch of other features. Is the 60fps worth $400 more?

jeron
2 replies
13h39m

$800 is ridiculously steep. I could buy 8 kindles for that price

mdp2021
0 replies
8h51m

It is the same range of current high end E-Ink based Android tablets.

(See for example the Onyx Boox Ultra C.)

Tepix
0 replies
12h49m

You're ignoring the 60fps and the display size for starters.

boochiboo12
0 replies
20h53m

you're right, for some folks it's not gonna be worth the price increase

we understand that, and we hope we can bring the price down with scale

for some of the folks who its worth it for, some of the reasons are: - onenote or noteshelf or goodnotes on eink working without lag makes it worth it - obsidian or google docs or your terminal working without latency - you end up reading way more substacks, articles, blogs, things in the browser - dragon ball z on eink is fun :)

MBCook
4 replies
16h6m

I wish it had page turn buttons.

I bought an Oasis entirely because of the buttons. Once again Amazon has killed their only reader with buttons.

They clearly don’t care much about Kindles in general, they’ve had software issues like missing features forever that Amazon doesn’t care about fixing.

This lacks ghosting, the screen and CPU are fast enough not to be obnoxious when doing literally anything (low bar, but Kindle). It’s USB-C, and since it runs Android apps it runs the Kindle app.

But no page turn buttons. I get those don’t matter for a normal tablet, but to me their do for an e-reader. I guess it’s just as well, they probably wouldn’t work in the Kindle app anyway.

otoburb
1 replies
16h3m

>I wish it had page turn buttons.

I had the same thought, and then I realized that they claim to have customizable "action buttons" which supposedly can be used to turn the page if that's the action that was configured. They seem to be on the top and not on the side, but at least two of them are there.

MBCook
0 replies
15h1m

Oh I didn’t notice that part. That could work.

e-_pusher
1 replies
15h0m

Source: I was the chief hw designer for this project.

The tablet does have page turn buttons! There is a side button and a top button. The side button in particular is nice as a page turn button.

MBCook
0 replies
4h14m

Oh great!

robgibbons
3 replies
19h0m

Really compelling product. Is the light temperature adjustable?

e-_pusher
2 replies
18h56m

Source: I was the chief hw engineer for this product.

Yes - the backlight temperature allows you to adjust it from a pure (albeit on the warmer side) white to pure amber.

robgibbons
1 replies
18h41m

Thanks very much for responding. You mentioned backlight, and forgive my ignorance, but is this type of E-paper not front-lit?

circuit10
0 replies
16h29m

It’s not actually normal e-ink, it’s a kind of LCD, that’s why they say e-paper and not e-ink

I think it’s like the kind of LCD you see on calculators and clocks and the original Game Boy, that doesn’t need a backlight to be visible but can have one

kepano
3 replies
23h13m

I've been dreaming of a device like this to run Obsidian on. I made an e-ink theme for Obsidian[1] but the refresh rate and ghosting of e-ink makes it less appealing to work with. I am curious to see if this device will solve some of those issues.

[1] https://minimal.guide/features/eink

boochiboo12
2 replies
22h24m

we have a couple units set aside for devs to optimize their apps to the daylight, email me and we can try to get you one!

many of our early testers / customers loved using it as an obsidian typewriter

anjan 'at' daylightcomputer.com

kepano
0 replies
22h17m

I preordered one already but will do!

ghotli
0 replies
20h3m

In one of the pictures on the site was it sitting on a dock with a keyboard. I use obsidian and would use this as an obsidian typewriter. If I order is it just the tablet itself or more? I presume it runs Linux so any keyboard that would work in that environment would work with the device? Even better if I can ssh into it.

Edit: I see elsewhere in this thread that it’s android. If I can adb shell into it and push my own custom launcher to it, I’ll buy one today :)

Zuiii
3 replies
16h25m

I have the remarkable and the main reason I don't use it and use an android tablet (with a normal screen) instead is because of the remarkable's bad software support; can't sync documents and notes securely (e2ee) using standard tooling.

Put money in supporting mainline linux distributions and I will buy this in a heartbeat. Many would.

goda90
1 replies
12h59m

Looks like this is essentially an Android tablet. Not quite mainline Linux but lots of software options.

Zuiii
0 replies
12h23m

I am only using android as a compromise because it can run the bare minimum software I need and I couldn't find a similar device that runs standard Linux.

Unfortunately, Google appears to be adding new limits to what software on Android is allowed to do with each update. I don't think android will continue to be a viable option for me for much longer. Standard linux support is likely going to be mandatory.

Whether it's from daylight, pine64, framework, or any of the other OEMs working in this space, I don't care. I'll gladly pay anything for a good tablet that does what I need it to do.

jcul
0 replies
10h18m

Wow that's interesting, would be really cool to use this as a linux tablet.

yc-kraln
2 replies
9h12m

This would be killer for musicians!

hmottestad
1 replies
9h6m

I would recommend something bigger. There are several 13.3” e-ink tablets that will allow you to show an A4 sheet of music. There is even a dual 13.3” tablet that has two 13.3” e-ink displays and folds in half.

josmar
0 replies
3h12m

There is even a dual 13.3” tablet that has two 13.3” e-ink displays and folds in half.

Do you have a link?

tristor
2 replies
20h53m

I am not an Android user, but I primarily rely on a cross-platform note taking app that supports Android. Does Android with this device support OS-native OCR to convert writing to text? I'm curious if this is usable with Standard Notes.

I currently own and use a reMarkable 2 daily, and then transcribe notes to Standard Notes when I'm near my computer. Would love something that lets me skip the transcription step with the advantages of e-ink / writing with a stylus.

tristor
0 replies
20h42m

It looks like Nebo is an alternative note-taking app? I will email the Standard Notes dev team and see if they are planning to do the lift for OCR on this type of device. I see upthread someone has mentioned Obsidian will do so.

throwaway81523
2 replies
6h40m

$729, lol. Inkplate 10 is still on my want list. A 14 inch version at $729 would be of more interest than a 10 inch version which is too small to read full page PDFs. 60 hz update for e-paper is nice but imho not that valuable. I see it as a reading device not video.

op00to
0 replies
6h35m

Yeah - I’m old now. I need 13” and I really don’t wanna blow $2500 on a 13” iPad Pro.

7bit
0 replies
5h0m

That price is CRAZY. Definitive no from my side.

thih9
2 replies
21h27m

Is there an independent review, preferably video?

boochiboo12
1 replies
20h46m

coming! should be a bunch of unofficial ones on twitter

thih9
0 replies
7h49m

Does anyone have links? I don't have a twitter account, search seems login walled.

serf
2 replies
19h26m

I'm excited for all these epaper devices for use on my sailboat.

Everyone uses tablets + Navionics, but glass tablets absolutely suck in bright daylight. It will be nice to find an ePaper device that I trust enough to use for charts.

siralonso
0 replies
19h23m

Ditto, except in my glider! I would appreciate a slightly smaller form factor, though - the cockpit in the Libelle is a bit... tight.

jval43
0 replies
9h36m

A 2000 nits bright iPhone is perfectly usable outside in bright sunlight.

The brightest iPad (iPad Pro) is currently 1000 nits. Not quite there yet, but I'm sure the next generations will only improve.

nbzso
2 replies
15h52m

Nah. I would wait for an ink display with 60 fps. SaaS is not the future of computing. I need control. For artistic purposes, an iPad and Wacom tablet are enough. But cool product for a rich audience. Why you call it "computer" and then a tablet. Just call it a tablet with apps in the cloud. :)

nashashmi
0 replies
15h28m

So what makes this great is the battery life, the thinness, and visibility in the sun.

goda90
0 replies
13h5m

There are lots of Android apps that don't need the cloud. This can run those.

boochiboo12
1 replies
20h41m

our contrast can vary depending on the lighting envrionment, its the nature of non lambertian reflective displays with optical gain

most of the time its pretty good!

in dimmer environments, you can boost contrast by boosting the backlight a bit

layer8
0 replies
17h32m

The photo I linked to supposedly is how the tablet looks like in full sunlight, which I would assume would exhibit the best possible contrast. But the background is awfully dim (around #987 in the photo) (also in comparison to the white frame), and the text isn't very black (around #433). This looks like a contrast ratio of roughly 4:1. The photo probably isn't the best, e-ink displays usually have a contrast ratio of around 15:1. But that's still very low, printers can achieve a 100-200:1 contrast ratio for black ink on white paper.

hurril
2 replies
11h36m

Happily interested in this, I discover that they have broken the scrolling on the homepage about this for reasons. This tells me that since they have never tried their own homepage, they don't really care about usability so their product is probably not going to be very good.

tern
1 replies
11h4m

As someone who had input on the website, I can say we're very concerned about that and aiming to fix it as soon as possible. Honestly, we just didn't get it right before the launch.

hurril
0 replies
1h18m

Why are you even doing anything with the scrolling? Something someone can do in JavaScript in a WebPage is better than the implementation in my touch pad on my Mac?

garyrob
2 replies
21h34m

My biggest need is for an ebook reader. What abilities does it have in that area? Having trouble finding info on that on the web site.

boochiboo12
1 replies
21h27m

- run the kindle app (android app) - run epub readers like lithium reader - use our PDF reader or others like adobe - go into the browser and download books - use google play books and its beautiful page flip animation lol

garyrob
0 replies
21h10m

Excellent! Thanks!

enduser
2 replies
18h46m

This looks really neat and I’d love to see if it becomes a viable replacement for rM2. For now it reminded me that I can set my OLED iPad to monochrome (via Accessibility > Display > Color Filters and crank up Night Shift). I just added shortcuts to my dock to toggle between these modes. Now I have the best of all worlds..

Typing this from my Magic Keyboard at 120fps 264ppi in warm monochrome.

I do wish I could get a graphite tip for the Pencil Pro to use on the textured screen.

mofeien
1 replies
18h37m

Thanks for the inspiration. Works on android 14, too, under accessibility options -> color correction, and you can set a two finger swipe up gesture to switch between the modes.

4b11b4
0 replies
18h22m

I'm usually in black and white. Can also get the accessibility icon to permanently show up in the bottom right corner of the bottom bar.

dmitrygr
2 replies
1d

More or less the same screen tech as some old Sony PalmOS PDAs like SJ20 from the 2000s: Transflective greyscale LCD.

Glad they are making a comeback. They were nice. I still use an SJ20 to read ebooks for this very reason. Plus, they can be had for $10 on eBay.

e-_pusher
1 replies
21h35m

Source: I was the chief hardware engineer for this project.

Thanks for your comment! I grew up using a Palm III that was already super old when I had it in high school. But years later, my fond memories of the sense of focus I had using it became a major inspiration for deciding to join Anjan’s team for this project :)

msephton
0 replies
21h10m

I'd be interested to hear more about the specific screen tech and the how it compares with the ~2000s.

coin
2 replies
14h14m

What an obnoxious website to use on a mobile device

yoyopa
0 replies
13h37m

don't worry it's obnoxious on desktop too

jesterson
0 replies
11h17m

It's 21st centrury and unfortunate prevalence of form over substance.

antisthenes
2 replies
21h32m

Without going into pricing details, what's the longevity of an e-ink device at 60fps?

As far as I understand it, e-ink has essentially a "finite" albeit a very large number of refreshes available, when moving the "nodules" to display different images.

Has the issue been solved? E.g. will users be able to get at least 5-7 years of heavy usage out of this device? Or will this become e-waste after 2-3 years?

wkat4242
0 replies
14h18m

As it's not eink but LCD there shouldn't be refresh limits.

naikrovek
0 replies
21h12m

It’s not eink, it’s a reflective lcd whose design tradeoffs were tweaked for what this manufacturer wanted.

While technically it is an lcd, reflective lcds are extremely readable in sunlight and use very little power to maintain the image on screen. An epaper/eink display uses zero power to maintain the display and uses electrostatic manipulation to refresh the screen.

ant6n
2 replies
22h3m

I dunno, after the steaming pile that the Dasun Color Monitor turned out to be (some notes of mine here [1]), I’m kind of weary of this e-ink thing. The problem isn’t just ghosting and slowness, I could deal with that. It’s also reflective, very poor contrast, bad dithering, awful color reproduction.

One would have to hold it in ones hand first.

…very cool looking project though.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40364254

ant6n
0 replies
12h48m

That’s not really the point. The point is that companies will sell these new technologies and make the product seem great in their marketing material. Which for screens can be especially annoying.

At least for an apple I can ran into the next store and find out that yes the screen is nice, but it’s still pretty reflective.

CGamesPlay
2 replies
18h16m

Mind sharing which website builder you used so I can avoid them like the plague? I see other complaints here, but for me it completely fails to show anything, saying that a client-side error occurred (iOS 16.6.1), in a full-screen modal with text selection disabled.

hn_version_0023
0 replies
17h50m

Same problem, iOS 17.4.1

BadHumans
2 replies
21h6m

I need this to have a dedicated drawing app with layers for me to even consider this. None of the eink tablets right now have good drawing apps even if you can technically do it.

boochiboo12
0 replies
20h59m

you can try concepts on our thing! its a pretty damn good drawing app / procreate alt

smikhanov
1 replies
6h48m

Who makes this?

"About" section has 5 (five) words of waffle in it, their ToS is buried and doesn't give any indication of what this company is, except the name, phone number and governing jurisdiction (CA).

Their "founder" in comments here is a newly registered HN account.

sevg
1 replies
21h38m

@boochiboo12

Looks like a really interesting device! I have one question about one of the taglines on the home page "A distraction free space". What are the things inherent to the OS that make it distraction free? Is it Android with notifications ripped out?

boochiboo12
0 replies
20h48m

the simplest mod is notifications off by default

but we've got a bunch of things in the pipeline also

for example, one sec like 'app delaying / intentional friction' functionalities built into the OS

rchaud
1 replies
1d1h

the site loads OK, but keeps crashing when I scroll to the "animated text on scroll" section . I'm on Brave Android on a phone with 12GB RAM.

boochiboo12
0 replies
21h35m

should be fixed now, does it work for you? thanks for helping report a bug

milani
1 replies
17h20m

Congrats on the launch!

I was scrolling and everything on the hardware looked great (although I was looking for how the tech is different from e-ink, not how better its properties are).

Then I reached "Introducing Sol:OS" and stopped right there. Didn't look further and closed the tab. I'm skeptical when it comes to custom OS. Not a lot of startups can handle a hardware+software company. Hardware is hard enough. Software is second class citizen and doesn't get regular updates after a few years.

vineyardlabs
0 replies
16h45m

It’s just an android rom tho?

libpcap
1 replies
11h27m

Where is this manufactured?

jesterson
0 replies
11h19m

You guessed it right :)

leetrout
1 replies
19h24m

I wish you the very best of luck.

I bought a remarkable and while it works well the price is the most remarkable thing about it.

Remarkable is also remarkably unfriendly toward their user base to be built on so much open source tech.

They recently had a IP watchgroup file takedowns for template building materials on figma. Really onerous move given it is perfectly valid nominative fair use to say a template is made for the remarkable 2 the same as you would say something is made for an ipad.

echelon
0 replies
19h20m

bought a remarkable and while it works well

The Remarkable 2 is slow and clunky and starting to show its age. The refresh rate and CPU were slow when the device debuted, and now they're really feeling dated.

Navigation through menus and sidebars is tedious, and the UI isn't very customizable for my workflow. There's too much clutter for things I never use, and the bad UI won't get out of the way.

The new updates with gestures have broken the original ergonomics. The device now false detects a lot of interactions that I'm not trying to perform.

I'm really hoping for intense competition in this space.

hollander
1 replies
4h23m

We want the monitor, not the tablet. Plus the probably needed software for Windows, macOS ánd Linus to handle the color scheme.

josmar
0 replies
3h29m

You may want to check this out. It's a monitor using reflective LCD (RLCD)

https://www.sunvisiondisplay.com/rE-Monitor

Have not tried myself and have no affiliation. If anyone here used it, lmk how it works

fphhotchips
1 replies
15h48m

Not shipping internationally is a pretty frustrating decision. This device is almost exactly what I want, but I can't buy it because you... can't put it in a DHL box with a different country's name on it?

Congrats on the launch, but this is kind of a kick in the nuts.

Mild edit: I checked a UK address and it turns out you can put it in a DHL box with a different country's name on it, you just can't print the word Australia on the box. Nice. If this is because the device can't stand up to kangaroo rides, can I have one if I assure you that I won't take it with me when I hop to the shops?

faxmeyourcode
1 replies
21h15m

To me the videos are absolutely mind blowing, congratulations on the launch.

It feels like a leap forward in an area of tech that has totally stagnated (e-ink). I think this device is tackling a few hard problems all at once. Well done and I wish you luck.

mdp2021
0 replies
8h46m

the videos

Please note (you will find info in these very pages) that they are tentative, made on prototypes. And they were apparently meant to be demonstrative of capabilities, not of real-life experience.

The Company says they will be updated.

cwrichardkim
1 replies
23h16m

Can you tell us a bit more about the OS? does it resemble stock android or would it be unrecognizable for most people?

Tiny bit of feedback: the cart doesn't make it clear what the founder's edition is

boochiboo12
0 replies
21h41m

it can pretty easily become / look like stock android if you switch out our launcher for one of your preference

we also gonna come out with a bootloader unlock tool so you can customize it to your hearts content

goal is to be hacker/DIY friendly.. we'll get better and better with this over time

callalex
1 replies
3h7m

I see the website for about half a second on my up to date iPhone and then it just says “client side error” and blanks out the entire screen. Now I have no idea what your product is.

Plain html never killed anybody.

moffkalast
0 replies
3h6m

I'm sure you can theoretically make an effective jump scare in plain html and give someone a heart attack.

asadm
1 replies
1d1h

Can somebody figure out display part# this uses?

Projectiboga
0 replies
23h55m

Display is custom made for them, it is not a part. Only way to buy is as offered.

abhinavsharma
1 replies
15h4m

What is the magazine article they’re flipping through?

tern
0 replies
10h29m

Unflattening by Nick Sousanis and The Shape of Design by Frank Chimero ;)

a2128
1 replies
13h25m

I got to try one of these a while back and I personally have to say it's a bit generous to call them e-paper. These are more like reflective LCDs you'd see in a GameBoy. You'll notice all marketing photos of it are in either direct sunlight or have the backlight on. I compared it to my reMarkable in an indoor setting and I would honestly prefer the reMarkable's low FPS over the Daylight's low reflectivity for reading books or taking notes.

Of course this all changes if you plan to watch videos or whatever on it - but for me personally the value proposition of an e-paper tablet is not about being able to consume that kind of stuff.

nabeards
0 replies
48m

Thanks for this info. I was wondering if you could turn off the backlight, would it be more like the reMarkable (which I love).

SoylentOrange
1 replies
6h21m

I was really excited for this - I’ve been saying to all my friends that I wish I could use my kindle for more. Obviously the kindle is quite slow so it’s not a good fit for reading on the web (I use Instapaper a lot and wish I could have that experience in eInk). I also read scientific papers and those often have figures that are very hard to read on a small black and white display, and I tend to scribble in the margins when I referee for conferences.

For these tasks I use my iPad Air, but the eye strain problem is real if you’re reading for hours at a time. Since I bought a small laptop, I exclusively use my iPad for reading and writing. The writing experience could be better, with the surface feeling a little too glassy.

My big worries are the app support. I use notability to write notes, which has OCR and allows syncing to my laptop and phone. My bookmarks sync across browsers. My reading list syncs with Instapaper and my citations with Zotero. Can I get a similar syncing system?

Another perennial problem with such devices is the stylus. I’ve lost 2 apple pencils at conferences. It’s horrible - you now can’t write anything until you get a replacement. At least with an Apple Pencil you can walk into any store and pay the exorbitant $120 to buy a new one (imagine if you could never borrow a pen from anyone ever again and each pen cost over $100 - that’s what it feels like). How will I get a replacement pencil for this device if it falls down in an airport or out of my bag in some conference center far from home?

But as others have said, the iPad is a tried and tested device. It has a powerful ecosystem and great resolution. The base model comes with 128GB of on device storage. And it’s $600, significantly cheaper than this device. I find the price tag hard to justify in comparison .

layer8
0 replies
5h2m

The new Pencil Pro has Find My, which might help in such a situation.

zombiwoof
0 replies
14h2m

729 dollars. Massive miss

zbowling
0 replies
19h49m

Sol:OS... it's just Android but we have to call it an OS I guess

yoyopa
0 replies
13h41m

what is the warranty you are offering?

yoyopa
0 replies
13h46m

Could you make the bezel any larger?

yismail
0 replies
19h41m

product aside, I thought the design of the website and the branding was quite sleek, kudos to the team.

yencabulator
0 replies
19h50m

Android 13, at a time when 15 will likely be production ready in a few months, seems to hint at a risk of not getting updates.

wkat4242
0 replies
14h24m

Very interesting product! Being here in Europe (Spain) the price point makes it a non-starter though. Especially with only a mediatek G99 (the same that was in my 110€ Samsung A9 Tablet).

However it's a nice idea and perhaps one that can become more mainstream and thus affordable. It's something I would buy if the price were right.

whatever1
0 replies
12h20m

oof it’s heavy

urbandw311er
0 replies
3h42m

Hmm. I think there’s some blurring of the lines between “e-ink / e-paper” and what this actually is, which is neither. The makers aren’t directly doing it, but neither are they actively discouraging it. Which is convenient. It would be more accurate to remove “e-paper from the post title and maybe sticky the commentators who helpfully point this out.

unnouinceput
0 replies
9h3m

Quote: "For a limited time get the founder’s edition complete with accessories. Tablet, stylus, charging cable + extras"

Do they plan to apply Apple's style of asking for an arm for extra stuff that the rest of hardware vendors include by default? I wish good luck to them with that then. Hard pass

ulfw
0 replies
18h13m

A bit odd on the marketing front. Marketing it as an outdoorsy tablet "sunlight readable" but then won't be available before the summer is over (October+)

torginus
0 replies
11h0m

Introducing Sol:OS a distraction free operating system with everything you need and nothing you don't

Literally under that:

All your content in one place - with icons showing kindle spotify, edge

Heh.

tobiasbischoff
0 replies
9h20m

Uhm, thats a very expensive Mediatek Tablet with outdated android.

terrycody
0 replies
14h30m

60Hz, my god, finally a mature product comes.

tcsenpai
0 replies
3h52m

Very promising. It would be super interesting to have an in-depth (when/if possible) understanding of LivePaper. If it is indeed "as eink but solving eink problems" I feel it could be adopted (licensed) from the industry in a blink.

In general, I dislike Android on eink devices but I have to admit I am talking about classic eink tablets. The main concern would be the battery life, that is usually always reduced in respect of custom linux based OS.

Pioneering new electronic paper technology is extremely underrated and important, kudos to you all for this!

tassadarforaiur
0 replies
14h18m

Being able to use my ipad as an extra monitor is one of the main reasons I always carry it around.

It might be too late for this model, but enabling the tablet to be used as a USB monitor, with all tablet functionality / storage hidden from the PC OS, or as a wi-di monitor, would easily justify a large chunk of the cost for some of us, and provide the tablet a useful life long past its last android os update.

srithon
0 replies
16h27m

I've been in the market for an e-ink tablet for a while, but was always turned off by the ghosting and low refresh rates. It's out of my price point right now, but if it gets cheaper for future generations, I'll definitely buy it!

squarefoot
0 replies
11h42m

Seems almost exactly what I was asking to a e-book reader: fast refresh, powerful enough and potentially open to run user apps and allow offline work; price is nice too. My only complaints are the use of Android, no 13" version that would be a godsend for technical books with graphs and diagrams, and the apparent lack of a headphones connector. Not sure about the latter as the web page is absolutely atrocious to navigate if one is after actual information instead of fancy graphics. I plan to continue to to wait for the PineNote to mature, because I will always sacrifice functionality to get more openness, but I'm glad something is happening also among the others. Its screen refresh speed is fantastic; I hope they will license the technology to others too, and possibly make panels alone available for sale. As a maker, I would welcome even a reduced speed (say 5-10 fps) version of the raw panel for sale at a decent cost for tinkering.

snvzz
0 replies
18h26m

Browser scroll behavior override alert.

snowstormsun
0 replies
4h14m

Is there a video demo where you can see how it refreshes the display and how smooth it really is?

razodactyl
0 replies
16h34m

Doesn't ship to Australia :(

But checkout with Bitcoin Lightning :O

phforms
0 replies
1h11m

If I could afford it, I would buy this just to support the idea and invest in an industry that focusses more on reducing the “virtual noise” and creating computers that are more like natural tools/artefacts that blend in with our environments instead of separating us from them and from each other and distracting us from what we actually value in life. I hope you succeed on your mission!

pedalpete
0 replies
19h9m

Congrats on the launch. I've owned a few Boox devices and a Kindle. I love e-ink for reading and note taking. I don't need my entire computer, but definitely useful for a few things.

If I hadn't bought a Kindle Scribe just 5 months ago, I'd have picked this up right away - if I come into some funds in the next little while, I just might anyway. Lots of opportunity for improvement over the kindle.

I'd love to see a deep-dive on your screen tech and understand how you built it. I love clever engineering. Hopefully you'll be public on some of that stuff. I'm assuming you have patents, so it's out there somewhere, but hearing from you about the process of creation I think would be really interesting.

On your website the "Who we are - A more caring computer company" doesn't link to anywhere. I think you're missing a great opportunity to tell us more about you.

Looking forward to your success!

normalaccess
0 replies
1d1h

Ohh my, on first blush this looks great.

nitin-pai
0 replies
10h41m

I have a simple hack to achieve most of the advantages of the Daylight Computer: set the display of your computer, tablet or smartphone to greyscale. Voila!

nickzelei
0 replies
16h6m

Nice! This is really neat. I love e-paper but like many others in this thread, wish it was better. This seems to be a really good alternative. I had to pause at the price though.

msephton
0 replies
21h3m

I have to see that the way you're managing the pre-orders and batches on your website is exemplary. Congrats to your web team!

motohagiography
0 replies
3h28m

realize it's a consumer product, and a very cool one. would like to get security information about it so that IT depts can approve it for use by employees.

it's a great personal device, but every lawyer and analyst who wants to use one for company data will be blocked by IT until they get some specs. Android is not allowed in a lot of environments because it's so fragmented and impossible to lock down.

minzi
0 replies
20h30m

Out of curiosity, how did you decide on the size of the device? Was it driven by cost considerations, preferences of the founding team, something else?

I think it’s a little too big for me, but I’m tempted.

mintplant
0 replies
20h22m

Epilepsy warning if you're on Firefox! The page background rapidly flashes between black to white:

https://streamable.com/85wbac

The flashing is much more rapid than shows up in my screen recording.

(Firefox 126.0 on Windows 11)

milesward
0 replies
5h10m

Planning for a keyboard case?

matt-p
0 replies
18h22m

This looks fantastic! Congratulations, really amazing work.

It's unfortunate it's twice the price of others in the field like remarkable, it's a little bit beyond what I'd buy for "that seems cool, I might use it from time to time"

markive
0 replies
12h54m

I'm really excited about this device for B2B.

No glare, but with a backlight and excellent battery life make this a great option for Engineering. The only thing that's missing here is a rear camera. Fingers crossed this is considered in the future!

localfirst
0 replies
21h22m

this is good enough to game on

lastdong
0 replies
19h50m

One thing that disappointed me with rM2 was the broken promise of developing your apps, rm2 became pretty closed (or not as easy and accessible) ecosystem, and I think it suffered. Most people on rM1 praised their DIY and hackability. Daydream looks beautiful, I hope they incentivise apps creation for the everyday engineer, who likes to tinker in spare time - it is Android

laserbeam
0 replies
9h0m

Looking forward to MyDeepGuide's review. The product sounds great, but when it comes to e-ink devices he's the reviewer I trust.

https://www.youtube.com/@MyDeepGuide

lacoolj
0 replies
3h38m

photo comparison between ipad and daylight - ipad is in the shade, daylight in sunlight

not an ipad (or any apple) fan, but not a great way to instill confidence

kkukshtel
0 replies
3h18m

This and that open source 60fps e-ink display repo from a few days ago on HN makes me think we're about to see an explosion of new tech that is centered around eink type displays:

https://github.com/Modos-Labs/Glider

kernal
0 replies
3h46m

Sol:OS is a custom Android OS carefully crafted to minimize distractions, with a clean, intuitive interface that keeps you in the flow.

I'm glad they admitted its provenance instead of hiding it like Rivian and Rabbit.

kazinator
0 replies
12h28m

Can the skeumorphic simulated paper page flipping be turned off in favor of simple scrolling?

kasperset
0 replies
17h57m

Would 190dpi screen be a deal breaker? Just wondering because Kindle scribe has around 300dpi.

karunamurti
0 replies
12h41m

Can this run Doom ? also can this run custom Linux?

kaon_
0 replies
10h59m

If this works it is life-changing for me. Eyestrain is now one of the biggest threats to my career and killjoys in my life. I backed the EazeEye kickstarter (which was backlit LCD) but wasn't satisfied with the result.

A work day without eye strain afterward would be gold. A work day on the balcony in the sun... Omg i am looking forward to the future!

jrh3
0 replies
1h53m

I could see myself getting 4-5 of these one day so I could spread them around my desk to work and then stack them up in priority order when I was done.

ji_zai
0 replies
1h34m

Thank you! I've been itching for a product like this. Hate the strain computer screens give me. Kindle, and Remarkable felt too restrictive. Building on Android is a good move.

jerjerjer
0 replies
11h18m

Is it possible to see it offline?

Looks interesting but I'd like to see it before dropping $729.

Also can it work as an external monitor? I suppose there's Android app for it of course, but "natively"?

japhib
0 replies
2h8m

You know what is paper-like, has infinite FPS, never runs out of batteries, and costs about 100x less than this?

A physical notebook & a pen :)

insane_dreamer
0 replies
3h45m

Looks beautiful and would definitely like one, though I don't think I have a use case that justifies the cost. This looks great for people who do a lot of reading and/or writing outside away from their desk. I wish that were me. My use case, fwiw: 1) I use my laptop for writing because I'm much faster on laptop than pencil anyway and if I have to carry a keyboard+ipad/epad I might as well have a laptop; 2) am not a "writer" so don't need that "distraction free" experience (though I do love the thought of it, I sadly have very little opportunity to sit in the forest and compose); 3) when I do have time for reading for pleasure, I use dead-tree paper (I've had various e-book devices over the years and keep coming back to paper: can throw it in a bag and take it on a hike with the kids without worrying about it getting damaged; I don't like "owning" (aka renting) DRM'd material; I avoid Amazon as much as possible; I buy used if I can find it; I want to be able to pass it on to someone else); 4) if I'm reading academic papers (a good use case for Daylight), I'm going to be making notes somewhere (much faster with keyboard), copy/pasting or links for reference, maybe sending a comment to a co-worker on Slack or making a TODO in Jira, and usually at my desk since it's usually work related. I used to have an iPad+keyboard but realized it didn't really provide me anything over a MacBook, so the kids have the iPad and the keyboard is in a drawer. Major kudos for what looks like an outstanding device.

hkab
0 replies
16h12m

Absolutely love the idea! Although I'll wait for a while for reviews, congrats on the launch!

heliostatic
0 replies
20h6m

Ordered. Can you recommend a stand that has worked well? Love the vision.

heavyset_go
0 replies
20h55m

Is this running a forked kernel and do you plan on mainlining the changes you made to Linux?

gsuuon
0 replies
17h8m

Excited for this, have tried out various e-ink things previously and the fast refresh seems like a game changer. Any chance a color version will be possible with this tech? Also - larger (monitor size) screens? I'd love to use this for coding outdoors as well as reading.

grugagag
0 replies
17h19m

A whiff of fresh air into the scene. Please keep it relatively simple but performant but with the user in mind. And no, this doesn’t need to have any AI in it.

globalise83
0 replies
11h35m

Not your target market because I am a cheapskate and only buy second hand stuff, but I will buy it when it becomes available on my local exchange marketplace. Good luck!

gillygize
0 replies
19h58m

It looks like it currently doesn’t ship to Japan. Any plans to include Japan in the future? I would have pre-ordered already if it did.

genevra
0 replies
15h2m

Wow, wondered when the next advancement was coming in epaper and now it's here

fyrn_
0 replies
13h36m

Now if only this display manufacturer and Framework could collab, it would be so cool to swap a LivePaper display onto framework devices

fuzztester
0 replies
21h35m

I always preferred amber to green when using monochrome PC monitors way back.

freitasm
0 replies
20h51m

I was just trying to order one. But only available to ship to a limited list of countries.

firstSpeaker
0 replies
20h11m

Is there any video/comparison for the software functionality with the likes of Kindle Scribeb, ReMarkable, etc. for note taking?

felixding
0 replies
6h14m

No headphone jack? Why?

est
0 replies
16h25m

today's e-ink displays could provide some sort of color, can anyone tweak the color for coding friendly so we can use it in editor or terminal? Just 8 colors would be sufficient for most programming tasks.

efields
0 replies
19h27m

Enjoy my $100 deposit. Such a cool thing you’ve made!

edoardo-schnell
0 replies
14h45m

Still just a tablet... Damn, been waiting for a viable e-paper laptop monitor for a decade now

edderkopp
0 replies
20h28m

What is included in the price in addition to the tablet itself? Stylus? Cover?

Is it possible to fasten the stylus to the tablet/cover such that the stylus doesn't get lost easily?

If the stylus gets lost, is it possible to purchase a new one?

earlyriser
0 replies
19h6m

Are you going to sell LivePaper as an electronic component or it's just going to be available for Daylight devices?

dilidili9
0 replies
48m

WoW! Sounds amazing! I'm curious about a few things: How does LivePaper compare to traditional e-ink in terms of battery life, given the higher refresh rates? Are there any specific challenges you faced while ensuring the display's durability and consistency, especially with the custom tech involved? How does the viewing experience of LivePaper hold up in different lighting conditions compared to traditional e-ink and LCD displays? What kind of feedback have you received from early users regarding the usability and performance of the tablet in various applications like coding, document editing, and gaming?

dbcurtis
0 replies
18h42m

What is the hobbyist developer experience? It’s very interesting but I mostly quit buying computation devices that I can’t hack on. Yeah, I’m not your market, but I gotta ask…

davelondon
0 replies
12h43m

tl/dr: it's marketed as e-paper, but it's not e-paper... it's reflective LCD.

dash2
0 replies
20h4m

Very interested to see this. I have a Supernote which has passed the basic gadget test: I still use it regularly after the initial few weeks. But it's true that it is limited to (a) taking notes in meetings and (b) reading and annotating PDFs. I wonder what more I would do with a truly fast screen.

darthrupert
0 replies
12h20m

Nice subtle(?) reference to Vannevar Bush at 1:00 mark.

danlitt
0 replies
20h42m

Why?! The point of eink is that it's slow refresh.

dakiol
0 replies
8h5m

I bought a Kindle Scribe and I love it. I’m looking forward to use more e-paper screens in the future, so excited about this new product!

codpiece
0 replies
17h39m

I just ordered one, too! I'm a huge fan of eInk tablets and always loved the Pebble display. Your design is very clean, and the screen quality looks beautiful.

I can't wait to run this as a thin client to my Lenovo P920 ML workstation.

codingpanic
0 replies
20h25m

Love that you are calling a tablet what it really is: a computer.

Now for a crazy question: does the Daylight Computer support an external full color display via a usb-c dock? Color when you need it… epaper when you don’t.

choilive
0 replies
3h52m

I've tried a bunch of eink tablets (scribe, supernote, remarkable). At the end of the day, I go back to just plain paper and ink, the advantages of digital just wasn't worth it. I can buy a quality notebook for $25 or less and it will last me a year. For the cost of this device that means I can get a stack of 30 of those notebooks which will last me most of the rest of my life. I doubt the daylight computer will have a 30 year service life.

bitcraft
0 replies
3h23m

I might be a minority here, but I don't really consider the Android OS a feature I want. As a Remarkable 2 owner, I've come to really appreciate the long battery life and purpose built OS. There are no "app" distractions, and it has become an essential part of my daily work flow for note taking and e-book reading.

I wish Daylight success, but at their price, its not a compelling offer for me.

beckthompson
0 replies
21h27m

Man looked super cool but its just too expensive for me. I hope you guys are successful so your price point can go down a little so I can buy one in the future!

beAbU
0 replies
10h42m

I hope this tablet is capable of rendering it's own product website, because on my laptop with not-so-modest-specs it's a laggy unscrollable mess.

arathis
0 replies
18h14m

Oddly enough I find having apps (like Spotify) a turn off. I love my Kindle + it's extended battery life. Navigation is a bit of a pain in the ass, but otherwise I find it really great at just being a light-weight device for reading.

Looks beautiful though (and I found the website to be nice too!)

andvari3d
0 replies
12h35m

My first comment in HN. This looks extraordinary. Too bad you don't ship to LATAM, but it's worth asking a favor to friends in US to pick it for me

andvari
0 replies
1h28m

If I make a $100 deposit now, (because I prefer to wait for a review) What will be the price for the next batch?

anarchy89
0 replies
11h28m

Can you ship to Singapore ?

amlozano
0 replies
19h18m

This is awesome, I ordered one.

Please bring this display technology to larger formats if it ever makes sense economically, this is like the dream for a wall calendar.

alabhyajindal
0 replies
14h22m

This is very cool! Congrats on the launch!

against_entropy
0 replies
15h33m

so the only problem now is that, it's black and white, not full color

WhereIsTheTruth
0 replies
2h21m

Interesting product, but this is probably one of the worst website ever, it's hard to browse and very hard to find actual useful information, let alone specifications about the HW/Battery..

Vegenoid
0 replies
19h16m

I'm too wary to be an early adopter, but I'm glad that there are many people who are stoked about getting in on this. If it turns out to be as great as it seems, it will be a dream come true.

Tijdreiziger
0 replies
20h4m

I’m only able to see the page for a split second before it throws a full-screen ‘application error’.

SuperHeavy256
0 replies
10h58m

This sounds too good to be true. But if it is true, I want it.

RodgerTheGreat
0 replies
18h15m

A pen-tablet with a transflective display and a commodity OS is very compelling. I've been working for a few years on a "multimedia sketchpad"[0] application with a primarily grayscale UI that screams for a device like this. I imagine the browser port might already work acceptably, but perhaps I'll revisit a native Android port with the Daylight in mind...

[0] http://beyondloom.com/decker/

RistrettoMike
0 replies
19h38m

Looks great!

I have a Boox tablet from a few years ago that I'm still using sporadically, and can't quite justify replacing yet, but if I was in the market this would be very, very appealing. Congrats to the team on the launch! :)

PETz
0 replies
6h38m

No shipping to Romania? :(

LoganDark
0 replies
3h30m

I'm too late, apparently, I'm only in batch 3 which is arriving in some four months or so. Sigh.

I did buy in though. I have a reMarkable 2 and it's a great device, but the software is super subpar. I'm cautiously optimistic about this device running Android, because that means I can run anything on it.

LelouBil
0 replies
18h59m

Wow it looks wonderful ! And just when I was thinking about buying a remarkable...

Hopefully I can get one for September.

Also, being on HN and all, how tinkerer friendly is it ? Already the fact that it's android and not a custom locked down os is great but, can I unlock it's bootloader and sideload custom roms for example ?

King-Aaron
0 replies
15h56m

What's with the weird static effect you've overlaid on the images here? It's quite hard on the eyes.

CarVac
0 replies
19h39m

Would be neat to have this display for the Framework 13...

Brajeshwar
0 replies
7h18m

For those who receive their copies and who also ordered the iPad Nano Textured glass; how do they compare/contrast. I know the stark difference in everything from the material to the entire concept but one has to stick to one, what kind of compromises and limitations will someone be deciding on.

Ariel_Asura
0 replies
1h7m

Your product is very appealing, and I was just about to place an order. However, the purchase interface seems to be frequently unstable, showing application errors. It took me three attempts to finally see that your product is priced at $729 and won't be available until November. I hope you can optimize the payment system or make the pricing clearer on the homepage.

698969
0 replies
19h48m

Where do I invest?