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A forged Apple employee badge

derefr
81 replies
17h15m

And that typed text is way, way cleaner than any typewriter I’ve seen.

Pedantic point: electric typewriters (which have existed since the 1960s) do type in a way that looks exactly like this.

(In fact, note that the text on the real employee ID card, shown later in the article, doesn't look any less clean! It's just set in a different, narrower font.)

The smudginess of mechanical typewriters comes from 1. them striking (and especially, releasing) at the same speed you're depressing the key, and 2. having many of the keys necessarily approach the ribbon from an angle.

The keys being swung weakly by your fingers, also has the additional implication that the ink ribbons used in mechanical typewriters have to be soft and squishy (so: made of cloth), and use thin inks. These properties ensure a transfer from even a low-velocity impact. But the trade-off is that cloth ink ribbons transfer only a rough outline of what's struck; and thin inks are high-bleed inks.

An electric typewriter, playing out a pre-buffered line with a crisp, predictable report, using linear actuators and a rotating-ball type-head to bang a tape ribbon loaded with high-viscosity ink onto the page, can create text indistinguishable from books/newspapers of the same period, or from modern laser-printer reproductions of the same font faces. They're essentially character-at-a-time letterpresses!

(Also, ignoring electric typewriters for a sec: inks bleed more on thin, cheap paper. But this is [a forgery of] an employee ID card — where, for durability, a nice heavyweight paper or cardstock would have been used. You're always going to get a better-looking result inking such paper.)

joe_guy
64 replies
15h1m

Do you mind if I ask why you still use typewriters?

satvikpendem
26 replies
12h30m

You might be interested in this video about why Gen Z is starting to use typewriters again [0]. In a word, focus. They say they are often too distracted from writing when using a computer as it is easy to surf the web instead of writing your paper, so having a single purpose utility rather than a multipurpose one is actually a boon.

[0] https://youtu.be/PdYPZr1Flog

armada651
21 replies
8h9m

Sounds like we need a single-purpose Linux distro that only runs a word processor. Of course that's not nearly as interesting as using a physical typewriter, but it sure is easier than scanning all those typewritten pages using OCR.

helij
17 replies
6h44m

Sounds like they need to learn how to deal with this. Turning off notifications might help as well. Eventually typewriter will not work as it's a mind issue and not a tool issue imo.

michaelt
16 replies
5h29m

The typewriter is them dealing with it.

Isolating oneself from outside distractions to help concentration is nothing new - libraries have provided quiet places for studying for aeons.

talldayo
9 replies
3h15m

That feels a bit like saying you disagree with farm automation so you fired your oxen and pull the plow yourself now.

There's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm empathetic to the people that feel like they can't focus in commercial operating systems, but their only option is to adapt or fall off. Making MacOS or Windows into a usable and non-distracting environment is basically the only way I have been able to make money in the tech industry. If I told my boss I was switching to a typewriter for efficiency purposes, I'd be gone before the end of the day.

satvikpendem
8 replies
2h50m

How is a typewriter going to help you run an IDE? They're two orthogonal things you're comparing.

talldayo
7 replies
2h46m

It doesn't even need to be code; I simply can't turn in work physically. If I type out my project notes or Kaizen report in a typewriter, I'll be asked to make a digital copy next. This isn't just programming, everywhere you go is digital-first and would vastly prefer a digitized copy from the start as opposed to OCRing a photo of my typewritten document.

Again - for personal use, go crazy. Nostalgic stuff is fun! This is not a solution for 90% of the workforce though and I would argue that relying on a typewriter for isolation is harming your professional prospects. Apply to any job and compare the reactions you get bringing your typewriter to the first interview with the reactions you get from bringing your laptop.

satvikpendem
6 replies
2h42m

You're arguing a strawman, no one said anything about using a typewriter professionally.

talldayo
5 replies
2h40m

It's not a strawman at all. The parent claimed "The typewriter is them dealing with it" and I am listing all of the different ways a can typewriter impair you personally.

If you don't care about the way people perceive you, how productive you are, how accessible your work is or how error-proof your product is, maybe a typewriter is for you. I cannot imagine a practical application (even casually) where you would benefit from a typewriter over a word processor and inkjet printer. I say this as someone with a typewriter not 20 feet away from where I'm standing now; they suck.

satvikpendem
4 replies
2h34m

You are still missing the point of why they use a typewriter. With a word processor on a computer, I can easily start browsing TikTok instead of writing my paper. Not so with a typewriter. Of course, it has its own cons compared to a computer as you state, but to say there are no "practical applications" is wrong, as evidenced by the fact that people do in fact use typewriters as I've stated. If it were not practical at least in some small way, they wouldn't be using it.

talldayo
3 replies
2h28m

With a word processor on a computer, I can easily start browsing TikTok instead of writing my paper.

Is that a personal problem, or a computer one though? Many people (myself included) have zero issue ignoring Twitter and Instagram while we work. In fact, typing on a computer is much easier than using a typewriter for a number of reasons:

- Don't need to buy ink ribbons or paper to continue typing

- Don't need to stop and switch out stamps to change your typeset

- Can infinitely reproduce a single document as many times as you want

- No white-out or paper strips required when you make a mistake

I don't know if you've ever used a typewriter before, but it should simply be common knowledge that it's the slower and more distracting way to type. Every second you spend using a typewriter instead of getting comfortable with a computer is wasted effort. Every time you take your typewriter apart to make a simple change, that's time you could be spending writing uninterrupted on a digital medium.

satvikpendem
1 replies
2h24m

Is that a personal problem, or a computer one though? Many people (myself included) have zero issue ignoring Twitter and Instagram while we work.

Then it's not for you, continue using a computer. It's a personal problem solved by the use of a single purpose technology rather than a multipurpose one, as I've initially stated.

I have used a typewriter and while it can be slower than a computer, some wasted time is better than wasting all one's time because one can't focus and distracts themselves instead. Sounds like you still simply don't get it, and I'm not sure how I can explain it further as I've restated my points several times now that those who use it can't focus when writing on computers.

talldayo
0 replies
2h20m

I don't get it. I also have a typewriter and would rather use Vi to type a term paper than even entertain the thought of switching out LATEX typesets. It's a no-brainer, it's far, far easier to dumbify your computer than it is to modernize a typewriter.

catlikesshrimp
0 replies
1h15m

Creative writing can be better accomplished with a typewriter. Imagine yourself in a cabin in a forest, with no electricity. That's extreme, but you get the idea.

Also, having a physical copy of your work >feels< safer.

helij
2 replies
3h42m

I understand to a degree but there's always 'but'.

How is typewriter any different than fullscreen text editor? You can have a quiet room with a computer no?

What I'm saying is, if they don't work on themselves, a physical device won't help long term imo. Eventually they will land back on distractions.

notjulianjaynes
0 replies
1h6m

I read an anecdote once that novelist Jonathan Franzen writes on a laptop which has had the WiFi card removed and Ethernet port glued shut. He's pretty successful so whatever works imo.

cgriswald
0 replies
1h37m

I don’t think this is true. They might struggle with distractions elsewhere but if they’ve created a ritual out of writing in this distraction free environment they’ve created it will probably always work for them (and maybe better over time). Having the experience of doing things without distraction might also help them ignore distractions elsewhere.

By way of analogy, learning to swim in calm waters helps you learn to swim in rough waters by giving you the experience of what swimming is even like.

filleduchaos
2 replies
5h8m

Nah, if you don't set up on a train station platform and do all your work from there you simply have a mind issue and should learn how to deal with distractions

post-it
0 replies
3h42m

Why? What works, works.

mrguyorama
0 replies
3h41m

Career writers have been using "dumber" text editors and computer systems to better mentally isolate their work for decades. It's not even an attention thing.

kristianbrigman
0 replies
3h55m

There were word processors with storage - I can’t remember how they worked but a dedicated typewriter doesn’t mean you can’t also get an electric copy.

Also found this in a quick search, basically an ereader + keyboard: https://getfreewrite.com/products/freewrite-traveler

flobosg
0 replies
7h37m

I built something similar using a spare ThinkPad x220 I had lying around and a minimal Debian installation. I would prefer something closer to the AlphaSmart Neo line of digital typewriters, though.

83
0 replies
4h58m

Theres a whole category of products that is just a keyboard with a tiny 3 or 4 lines of text lcd. (google electronic word processor, or Tandy WP-2). Probably not as popular today as they were back in the early 90s before everyone had a Pc, but I think they're still manufactured.

moomoo11
3 replies
5h42m

This is why meditation is important.

People need all sorts of excuses to just calm their mind and say it’s some disorder.

But I’ve literally never met someone who genuinely tried meditation and it didn’t help them.

I used to run a meditation group at work and the dozen or so people who consistently showed up reported that it changed their life. And I’m no expert I just do breathwork and concentration on a single object like a red dot sticker.

They rather use medication or spend money buying gadgets and toys.

Oh well. Not my problem when the solution is literally built in.

mrguyorama
0 replies
3h38m

People need all sorts of excuses to just calm their mind and say it’s some disorder.

Get off your high horse. My brain is literally, physically, developed wrong. It's broken. I need treatment, medication, therapy, not a fucking meditation tape. Not that meditation is bad or wrong or worthless, because I used to like it, but it's not medicine.

Do you also insist people with bad vision just try looking harder? Maybe squint a little bit more? Who needs glasses, the fix is built right in!

II2II
0 replies
4h16m

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that behavioural approaches should be tried first. On the other hand, framing the failure of behavioural approaches being the result of not making a genuine attempt is harmful. It may dissuade them from finding more effective treatments for their particular case, or at the very least delay them seeking help.

Fripplebubby
0 replies
2h52m

Medication isn't something they just hand out to anyone who asks. The reason it exists is because there is a large body of scientific research that all points to it helping treat disorders such as ADHD, whether you believe it or not. Meditation may also provide benefits, although there is less scientific evidence today that it does.

talldatethrow
22 replies
14h34m

I bought one recently at an estate sale so that I could write things without the ability to open a window and browse the web.

okasaki
9 replies
11h43m

Why not just use a pen?

notduncansmith
5 replies
11h2m

I can type on QWERTY much faster and more legibly than I can write with a pen. I suspect this is true for most proficient QWERTY typists.

okasaki
4 replies
9h43m

I've never tested it, but you may be right. On the other hand a pen is smaller, and you can draw and doodle with it.

ljf
2 replies
9h22m

I used to love doodling and drawing, but as soon as I start to write my hand cramps up. I take hand written (short notes) for work and I struggle to read them a month or so later when the context is gone. I also really struggle to spell, and will consistently get common words wrong.

BUT on a keyboard I can type almost as fast as I can think - and I can also spell 90% better - I don't know how it happens but it is like the words 'flow' out of my fingers when i type - and I can easily spell words that if you asked me how to spell I wouldn't have a clue. Also if you asked me to find you a key on a keyboard I'd have to look - but when I'm typing my fingers just know where they are.

I'm a 44 yo successful man, but I still don't know my alphabet well (for example I couldn't start in the middle or recite it backwards) - but put me in front of a keyboard and I can type all day long (note - I am VERY thankful for spellcheck though!)

ryukafalz
1 replies
5h35m

as soon as I start to write my hand cramps up.

I always had similar problems in school growing up. A few things that I've found helpful:

- Try a larger pen. It helps you maintain your grip on the pen without as much effort.

- Try a pen with less viscous ink. If you're used to ballpoints, this can mean e.g. a rollerball. This lets you write without putting much pressure on the page, which at least for me significantly helps to avoid hand cramps. (I use fountain pens these days myself which write with even less pressure, but rollerballs are a more familiar starting point.)

ljf
0 replies
2h0m

Thanks, I think for me part of the cramp is a mental block - I spent a long time hating writing (and English lessons in particular) and being told I was bad at it/lazy.

but as soon as I could type my essays I loved English and writing.

AlecSchueler
0 replies
7h16m

You can also use your pen to draw or doodle on your typewritten documents. Doesn't have to be one or the other.

iamtedd
0 replies
7h54m

As a lefty, I've tried writing properly, and tried to like it but I just... Don't.

fernandotakai
0 replies
8h43m

in my case, writing with a pen for long periods of time makes my hand cramp/hurt real bad (i still write on my journal daily but it's not pleasant).

(i don't have a typewriter, but i prefer to type anything because of this).

bayindirh
0 replies
10h39m

As an avid pen/paper user I can say that using a pen takes more time, plus you can't OCR it as easily as a typewriter output.

Nevertheless carrying a nice pen and a good notebook always beats having a heavy typewriter with you.

Maxion
8 replies
12h57m

And, today, with LLMs it'll take you a few seconds to digitize the document, too. For this reason I've also been considering a typewriter...

satvikpendem
3 replies
12h28m

Reminds me of those tablets (and pens) that you can write on / with and they automatically digitize and OCR whatever was written, as if by magic.

TeMPOraL
2 replies
12h9m

Does one exist that actually works?

ChrisMarshallNY
1 replies
9h51m

The iPad, with the Apple Pencil is pretty much there. It’s actually amazingly good. I have terrible handwriting, and it doesn’t seem to have a problem with it.

If anyone ever tried using a Newton, there was a series of Doonesbury comics[0] about its awful handwriting recognition.

[0] https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/mobile-computing/...

vertis
0 replies
8h20m

I got pretty good at writing with the Newton, but it was me adapting rather than the Newton understanding my natural handwriting (which is fairly neat given my parents are both teachers).

fmbb
2 replies
12h49m

OCR has been a solved problem for years. Long before LLMs started being hyped.

At least from typewritten documents that you did not torch or shred etc.

ryanjshaw
1 replies
7h55m

No it hasn't. Just 1.5 years ago I tried all the latest OCR tools, including AWS, GCP and Azure services, and none of them could consistently and reliably read a receipt printed at a store.

FredPret
0 replies
6h24m

Receipts are hard.

- cheap paper

- cheap ink

- misprints

- abbreviations

- every store does it differently

bayindirh
0 replies
5h1m

I was OCRing documents with ABBYY or Tesseract in 2000s if not a little bit earlier. I have been OCRing text documents with my phone for the last 6 years or so, with Prizmo.

It was taking seconds back then, too.

petesergeant
2 replies
11h59m

That piqued my interest for sure. This kind of thing exists too:

https://getfreewrite.com/products/freewrite-smart-typewriter...

but I'd really like to bring my own keyboard and have the e-ink display at a more ergonomic height. Combine that with Vim, and that'd be something I'd use

spondylosaurus
0 replies
11h30m

You might enjoy some of the full-fledged e-ink tablets (with folio keyboards, iPad style) on the market right now. Some even run Android, so you could definitely find a way to run Vim.

I was just looking at some today but the biggest downside right now is that they're pretty expensive for what you get.

numpad0
0 replies
1h2m

It's kind of surprising that there are no "typewriter OS" based on Alpine Linux, but it's always has to be paired with hardware sales to go past prototype stage as a business, and even then the viability is dubious.

sdedovic
4 replies
12h48m

not the OP but,

I am in my 20s and I use a typewriter somewhat regularly to journal. I was raised on computers, getting the jumble from my brain onto paper is faster with a keyboard than a pen/pencil and paper. And a typewriter is nice and analog - no screen, no lights, no battery. I'm disconnected, focused, and performant.

FredPret
3 replies
6h28m

Is it hard to find ink for it?

sdedovic
0 replies
2h4m

not too bad. I find a lot in local garage sales and on ebay. hasn't become a problem _yet_

astrodust
0 replies
3h53m

You can re-ink a ribbon if you're adventurous, or you can find new ribbons for many popular typewriters.

No harder than finding ink for a stamp.

SoftTalker
4 replies
14h55m

For some things (e.g. a one-off need to address an envelope) they are still faster and easier than anything else.

Twisell
3 replies
12h22m

...except a pen

Faaak
2 replies
11h31m

I don't think I would write faster with a pen than with a typewriter..?

ghaff
1 replies
10h33m

Yes. But for the one off need described (or similar) it’s way faster to write an address than to get things set up with a typewriter.

Of course for certain forms, better legibility in many cases may make it worth it.

SoftTalker
0 replies
2h40m

Yes. Post Office OCR is pretty good, but deliverabilty of hand-addressed envelopes is not as good as with typewritten addresses.

If you have really neat block printing it might be a wash.

ezequiel-garzon
1 replies
5h37m

"Have used" does not necessarily imply present use, right? More likely than just "used", but still. I hope OP replies.

anon946
0 replies
2h20m

Yes, used in the past. I don't currently use them, though I think they are cool mechanical marvels, especially IBM Selectrics. Those were way too expensive to own personally, but were common in offices. My personal typewriter was a much cheaper Smith Corona electric.

anon946
0 replies
2h26m

Oh, I personally don't currently use them. This was in the past, starting from playing around with my Dad's manual typewriter. Took typing course in 8th grade on a manual. Owned a Smith Corona electric in high school. Used IBM Selectrics for school newspaper, etc. I'm old. :-)

Fatnino
0 replies
12h10m

I dont think the person you are replying to said they still use one. Just that they have used multiple typewriters in the past.

I have too, for that matter, but I haven't touched one in over 25 years.

jart
3 replies
16h24m

This is one of those times when I wish Hacker News had something like Reddit Gold. Wonderful comment.

KennyBlanken
1 replies
15h6m

For a comment easily disproved by a simple google image search which returns plenty of examples of selectric output where the characters have anywhere to a very subtle but not perfect (like in the badge) alignment, to examples where the characters have "visible at arm's length" vertical and horizontal, and even rotational, issues?

ssl-3
0 replies
14h48m

Were those examples typed in 1977 on a fresh Selectric, or were they typed decades later on a tired Selectric?

1977 was a long time ago, even in typewriter years.

KennyBlanken
3 replies
15h21m

Pedantic point: electric typewriters (which have existed since the 1960s) do type in a way that looks exactly like this.

Wrong. Literally gooogle "selectric type sample" and see dozens of examples of them not typing anywhere near in a perfect line. Maybe machines with very low hours or kept in excellent condition might have excellent spacing, but there's plenty of examples of them obviously not having perfect spacing.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nicksherman/14249132603

https://www.reddit.com/r/typewriters/comments/e7xxct/typefac...

Another example where misalignment is even more obvious:

https://www.reddit.com/r/typewriters/comments/sc519r/ibm_sel...

http://www.jollinger.com/typewriters/typewriters/IBM_Selectr...

you can also see inconsistent letter spacing, more obvious on some fonts than others, but you can see some characters are connected and others aren't. And no, it's not just the position of the character relative to others on the ball.

As the author points out, these characters have perfect vertical alignment.

Then go look at high speed footage of the 'golfball' in action and you can see the substantial deflection caused by how fast and forceful the movements are. You can see the entire assembly is bouncing around as the rails it's on flex:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTtKaqIpOJc

masswerk
2 replies
15h10m

To be fair, the specimen shows some misalignment as well, e.g., the "S" at the very beginning is up and a bit to the left, the "Y" is shifted to the right, and there are small irregularities in "NGST", as well. However, I don't think that they add up in a sensible manner.

Notably, the Red Cross invoice is much worse: additionally to what has been noted in the article already, why would you have a hyphen in "Verkäufername"? Also mind the reoccurring use of "#" for "Nummer", which would have been rather unacceptable in a formal German document.

KennyBlanken
1 replies
15h2m

The image provided is so low resolution that this is probably a side effect of the edges of the characters being on the boundary between pixels on the camera's sensor.

Magnify it to full screen and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Now go back and look at the samples I linked to, where you can clearly see vertical misalignment.

I remember everyone in my school system had selectrics when I was a kid, and I assure you, they could produce text that was all over the place. Probably because the ones in a public school saw heavy use / were not properly maintained and serviced to the degree required.

masswerk
0 replies
14h41m

There's an image with suitable resolution to show the misalignment: https://i0.wp.com/cabel.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image...

BTW, also mind the drop of the "0" in "10".

Edit: We can all pretend it's perfectly aligned print, but, regardless, whether purposefully manufactured or genuine, there are obvious misalignments in that image.

Aloha
2 replies
16h45m

and an a Selectric II/III didnt use a felt ribbon, but rather a wax transfer.

dreamcompiler
1 replies
11h9m

IBM called it a "carbon" ribbon.

dreamcompiler
1 replies
11h21m

An electric typewriter, playing out a pre-buffered line with a crisp, predictable report, using linear actuators and a rotating-ball type-head to bang a tape ribbon loaded with high-viscosity ink onto the page

The machine you just described is an IBM Composer, except the ribbon was not "high viscosity". Rather it was essentially solid, being a carbon ribbon with a mylar back.

Most electric typewriters were not Composers, so they did not pre-buffer lines. In fact most electric typewriters were not Selectrics so they didn't even use a ball. The IBM Executive for example used swinging type bars just like a manual typewriter, and it produced excellent copy that was frequently used as a master for offset lithography. (Source: Me. I used to own a print shop.)

The presence or absence of swinging type bars, pre-buffering, or balls makes no difference. Carbon ribbons and the repeatability of impression that electric provides are what matter.

antonvs
0 replies
2h36m

Rather it was essentially solid, being a carbon ribbon with a mylar back.

And produced the most crisp type imaginable. I'm not sure any laser printer can compete.

dkjaudyeqooe
0 replies
14h22m

At least in the 80's, there were also printers that worked like that, ie a character ball plus some sort of transfer material to mark the page.

Groxx
0 replies
15h42m

Some nice up close content about some fancy electronic typewriters, from Technology Connections: https://youtu.be/YE0U018Copw

paxys
26 replies
18h0m

The detective work was fun I'm sure but ultimately unnecessary. The burden of proof lies on the seller. Stuff like this is fake by default unless it comes with a certificate of authenticity issued by some trusted party. There's a reason that entire industry exists. Believe me there are much, much better fakes than this one sold online for pretty much every collectable in existence.

acchow
24 replies
16h55m

How does one... authenticate... the certificate of authenticity?

throwaway290
23 replies
16h51m

Call the body that issued it and ask

kelseyfrog
22 replies
16h34m

You're saying I could gain a lot of money by issuing fake certificates of authenticity and then answer, "Yes, it is authentic," to anyone who calls and asks?

FabHK
7 replies
16h31m

issued by some trusted party
saagarjha
6 replies
16h17m

What authenticates the trusted party?

tedunangst
4 replies
16h4m

Shared hallucination.

callalex
3 replies
12h17m

(To those that might dismiss this as snark, look up the definition of currency. And if you find that adventure interesting follow up by reading the excellent book “Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind” by Yuval Noah Harari for an easy read that thoroughly explains the concept in an afternoon of reading. In that book it is called “shared delusions” instead.)

TeMPOraL
1 replies
11h55m

In that book it is called “shared delusions” instead.

Or, by less casual name, "intersubjectivity". And yes, it's a very important idea that directly applies here.

throwaway290
0 replies
8h18m

Perhaps even a must for any human society to exist at all...

p_l
0 replies
10h10m

Currency by itself, yes. Gold is probably best example.

Most fiat currencies impose a degree of solidity by being required for payment for certain services (read: taxes)

throwaway290
0 replies
12h40m

Legal system.

adolph
3 replies
15h54m

Yes

On August 9, 2010, Symantec completed its approximately $1.28 billion acquisition of Verisign's authentication business, including the Secure Sockets Layer (SSL) Certificate Services, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI) Services, the Verisign Trust Services, the Verisign Identity Protection (VIP) Authentication Service, and the majority stake in Verisign Japan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisign

omarfarooq
2 replies
15h33m

That's based on verifiable cryptography.

d0gsg0w00f
0 replies
15h18m

Yeah, but someone has to first trust the signer.

I can start a CA tomorrow, doesn't mean anyone will put my root on their OS distro.

adolph
0 replies
6h11m

The crypto is the middle part. "certificates of authenticity" have to cover the top and bottom ends. The sibling comment referred to the top. At the bottom, Verisign had a DUNS and payment dance that had more appearance than substance in determining authenticity.

tbyehl
2 replies
14h24m

Keep thinking like that and you'll be a ratings agency for Mortgage-Backed Securities.

lettergram
1 replies
13h28m

Hey man, those banks, brokers, and agencies are still in business lol still trust them?

astrange
0 replies
9h24m

No they're not, Lehman Brothers is gone and Fannie Mae got nationalized. AIG did survive though.

lesuorac
2 replies
16h28m

I mean first set-up a website and second ghost write some articles in forbes & etc to gain credibility.

But yeah; until somebody gets a different trusted party to look at the item.

Fraud generally pays pretty well until you get caught.

fragmede
1 replies
15h59m

If the penalty doesn't involve jail time, and the fine is less than the proceeds, it pays pretty well well after being caught

chasontherobot
0 replies
12h38m

now you're just describing the business model of most fintech companies

yumong
0 replies
12h23m

The assumption was that a trusted third party exists. Since you trust it, by definition, you can contact it to confirm authenticity of the certificate.

throwaway290
0 replies
12h31m

The first step is removing the "fake" part. You can issue authentic certificates of authenticity. If your certificates are based on some expert verification that you do, people will actually pay you, can you imagine that! ;)

And yes they would want you to say "yes/no, it is/isn't authentic" to anyone who calls and asks.

But if you screw up your records and say "yes" to fake certificates of authenticity that imitate yours then people will stop paying you very quickly. (Also you may end up in jail)

s0rce
0 replies
15h22m

If you somehow built up trust/reputation then yes.

labcomputer
0 replies
14h57m

You're saying I could gain a lot of money by issuing fake certificates of authenticity and then answer, "Yes, it is authentic," to anyone who calls and asks?

No, you make the money by offering to sell real certificates of authenticity to authenticate the fake certificates of authenticity to people who those who calls and asks.

op00to
0 replies
17h57m

Cmon, he had an invoice and everything!

hilti
15 replies
12h47m

There is so much wrong with the faked Red Cross invoice

1) A German date is always written DD.MM.YYYY

2) PLZ not ZIP 3) „Wir danken für ihr Unternehmen“ is a bad translation for „Thank you for your business“ … but it means a complete different thing -> „Thank you for your company“

But I‘m still impressed how much effort this guy put into all this. And I‘m sure my friends would have bought me this badge, because they had no idea it‘s fake.

yumong
5 replies
12h31m

And the locally used abbreviation for the currency at the time was DM, not DEM.

For close to $1000, a little bit of effort is not unexpected.

(Also, why assume this was a guy?)

serf
3 replies
9h5m

'guy'/'guys' is used without a gender context in certain regions, more like synonyms of 'folks '. I hear "hey guys" routinely in SoCal said without intention of labeling people.

pixiemagic
2 replies
8h14m

Only in the plural form though, right? I'm in the UK, where the usage you describe is common too, but reading "this guy" like in the comment above, I would assume they're talking about a man.

kibwen
0 replies
5h29m

Even then it's highly context-dependent. Ask any heterosexual man "how many guys have you kissed in your life?" and not a single one of them is going to consider this instance of "guys" as encompassing women.

germinalphrase
0 replies
5h36m

Your understanding is common in the US as well. Singular “guy” would read as “man” or “boy” while the plural “you guys” can read as gender neutral (though some argue that “you guys” should be avoided in mixed gender groups for being inadequately inclusive). I would expect there are some regional US differences in usage and reactions.

s0fasurfa
0 replies
5h47m

Another red flag: this invoice was issued just days before the EURO was introduced in Germany (1st of January 2022). Invoices issued in these times would have surely shown the amount in EUR as well.

MgB2
2 replies
5h50m

- Germans use commas as the decimal separator, while periods are only used to separate thousands.

- As stated in one of the linked mastodon posts, the abbreviation for the Deutsche Mark was DM, not DEM

Also, I have no idea how the seller thought the German Red Cross would emboss their paper with a circle of stars. If anything, embossing the cross itself would make the most sense. Probably they had the tool on hand from another forgery where it may have made more sense.

eapressoandcats
0 replies
3h1m

That’s probably what it is but there isn’t any reason for the German Red Cross to be embossing with the EU flag.

tomaskafka
1 replies
11h43m

Thank you! So, to paraphrase a Cunningham's Law, "the best way to make a good fake on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong fake."

Future defrauders will love both Cabel's post and this discussion :)

nativeit
0 replies
1h51m

I’ve seen this suggested elsewhere, and I’m not sure I buy into this logic. He’s using deductions based on a broad set of otherwise well known facts and conclusions that would be available to anyone who thought about it enough, and paid close attention to detail. Nothing in this article is arcane knowledge, or even especially esoteric. It isn’t even exhaustive, as additional imperfections have been identified by commenters on the article and in this very thread.

That it’s collected in this one post might be somewhat useful to someone specifically seeking to produce a counterfeit ID badge made to appear as if it had been created circa mid-1970s, but only to a limited extent as the processes used at the time for such things varied much more widely than they would today.

There’s also the fact that the person who performed this fraud was successful, despite this being reported to eBay by multiple sources before the auction concluded. So there’s not much motivation to expend the additional time and energy drilling down farther on tiny details, if their inaccuracy hasn’t caused them to fail thus far.

If anything, I’d imagine this will be useful to prop designers and miniatures hobbyists, who will exert substantial effort to achieve maximal accuracy just for its own sake.

tauchunfall
0 replies
5h43m

Also "Rechnung #" instead of "Rechnung Nr." or "Rechnungsnr.".

sgt
0 replies
5h15m

Also note the Rechnung #: 45968L59

So if you type 459 on a keyboard, a natural jump to something in the middle would be 68. 4-5-9, then 6-8 quickly. Right hand finds another letter "L" and then jumps back into the usual 59.

This is not definite but adds slightly to the suspicion.

raverbashing
0 replies
11h54m

Even funnier is that when googling I see some examples of actual invoices/receipts by the German Red Cross. But of course they would need to know what to actually google ;)

Cthulhu_
0 replies
9h42m

I mean I appreciate the effort put into it and to the untrained eye this looks good enough for e.g. movie props. I wonder if the creator is just a professional scammer or works in the movie / reproduction industry?

batmanthehorse
15 replies
18h14m

Interesting but I wasn't entirely convinced that it's fake. There might be more to this story. Maybe the seller is the one who got scammed when they bought it 20 years ago.

wetpaws
4 replies
18h8m

They did not cause their "invoice" was also fake

quink
3 replies
17h58m

With a price on the invoice of “3.000” Mark, with the decimal point being the thousands separator. Or about 1,500 EUR in today’s money.

Yeah, I don’t think so.

ttepasse
2 replies
16h32m

In Germany the dot is the most used thousands separator. It is still a fake.

quink
1 replies
14h40m

I know that, I wasn’t expressing incredulity at that, I was expressing incredulity at the price of 3,000 DM… while also wanting to make clear that it wasn’t 3 DM.

ttepasse
0 replies
5h49m

A then I seem to have misread. Sorry.

simantel
3 replies
17h13m

Did you miss the part where Chris Espinosa said "That’s not Sherry Livingston"?

Chris also has a follow-up post not shown in Cabel's blog where he says there aren't any photos of Sherry online: https://mastodon.social/@Cdespinosa/112391173495267599

CamperBob2
1 replies
15h57m

That's an interesting thing to assert. How does he know there are no photos of a given person online? It's getting into Russell's Teapot territory.

quesera
0 replies
15h46m

Possibly an overstated version of "I know what Sherry looks like, and an image search for her name does not turn up any pictures of the real person".

I might say the same for several of my friends.

jandrese
0 replies
16h28m

Which is kind of amazing when you think about it. There's no "The Apple Team" group photo that includes employee #10 anywhere? No wonder the scammer chose her when making the fake, it would be impossible to verify the photo without tracking down either Sherry herself or someone who personally knew her back in 1977.

alvah
2 replies
17h53m

I have a bridge for sale. Completely genuine, honest!

groby_b
1 replies
18h0m

That German Red Cross invoice is 100% absolutely a fake.

Source: I'm a German who has donated to the red cross. That ain't it.

(Also: There needs to be a a specific key phrase without which the German equivalent of the IRS will come down on you like a ton of bricks. It is missing)

cromulent
0 replies
15h3m

The date 8.12.2001 is a Saturday. This also seems off.

ttmb
0 replies
18h6m

Maybe they did. Do you suppose they got scammed on eBay - which they "perfectly" remember buying it from - or from the Red Cross, which they have an invoice for?

hnthrowaway0328
14 replies
16h15m

A sideline question: In Jason Bourne movie there are a few shots showing the protagonist faking passports. Does such technique (looks like no advanced tools are used) exist or just a film fantasy?

carabiner
4 replies
15h46m

In a Tom Clancy book they talked about terrorists just buying the commercial equipment used to make ID's. On Silk Road, I remember some guy claiming to sell British passports genuinely made from within the UK government.

dumbfounder
1 replies
15h30m

I bought a fake id 30 years ago that used the actual backs from Rhode Island DMV that they acquired somehow, but then faked the fronts. Equipment like that can absolutely go missing.

function_seven
0 replies
14h15m

I used to make fake IDs that reused both the plastic backing and the hologram layer from a real license. I spent some time creating a template in Photoshop that I ink-jetted onto photo paper. The final result was very close to the real thing in all aspects: look, thickness, weight, “bendyness”, real hologram, and light transmission (i.e. the bouncer shining a flashlight through the back of the ID would see what he expected to see. A bit of translucency)

I never got around to modifying the data on mag stripe. I just dragged a hard-drive magnet over it until it didn’t scan at all.

My takeaway from all that? The hologram that was used to strengthen the official IDs had an unintended side effect of making the fakes easier to believe.

tomaskafka
0 replies
11h32m

Or, he was a scammer as well - what are you going to do with an anonymous person who sold you fake passports? Report him to police?

mozman
0 replies
15h29m

Some DMV employees were busted selling real IDs with fake supporting documents in Arizona.

My friends daughter bought a fake ID stating that she was over 21 but only 16 - it would scan as authentic at stores but would not pass with police.

gen220
2 replies
15h56m

It depends on who you're trying to convince. TSA/customs? A prospective employer? The guy who runs the corner store?

To varying degrees, the answer is yes, the tools exist.

londons_explore
1 replies
11h28m

Most rich countries now use passports with an RFID chip which contains a copy of all the data in the passport and a digital signature.

They also host a server allowing trusted third parties to verify that a given passport is still valid (ie. Not withdrawn).

The combination of those mean you will never edit details on a passport, but you might be able to copy a passport 1:1, because the security is only mifare classic.

gorbypark
0 replies
7h1m

Depending on the intended use, copying 1:1 is kinda "useless" as well, as the picture is also included in the RFID chip. Some of those "quick entry" machines many countries are apparently are doing face matching between the person standing there and the picture embedded in the RFID chip.

You can actually read the photo from your passport with an Android phone. Some of the info in the machine readable area is required as a salt, so you can't do a remote scan of a closed passport.

adolph
2 replies
15h52m

Busy spy crossroads such as Dubai, Jordan, India and many E.U. points of entry are employing iris scanners to link eyeballs irrevocably to a particular name. . . . For a clandestine field operative, flying under a false name could be a one-way ticket to a headquarters desk, since they’re irrevocably chained to whatever name and passport they used.

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/04/biometric_pas...

slyall
0 replies
15h12m

It's funny how the lack of ability for spies to take aliases anymore may make James Bond going under his real name everywhere more realistic.

nolongerthere
0 replies
11h31m

Could you just wear a contact that obfuscates your iris?

yumong
0 replies
6h28m

I recommend Lex Friedman's podcast's episode with Matthew Cox.

iudqnolq
0 replies
6h53m

There's a fascinating snippet relating to this in the book Rise and Kill First by the Israeli national security journalist Ronen Bergman. Apparently faking passports could take months, at least in 2010 for the Mossad. Traditionally the Mossad would call off operations if they didn't have enough fake passports, but the new director decided to cut corners and reuse passports. This contributed to one of their most humiliating failures.

Stevvo
0 replies
9h12m

Depends on the security features of the passport. Most modern passports are highly secure. A 1960s passport from an African country would have lacked security features and been much simpler to fake or modify.

echoangle
14 replies
15h29m

What was even the point of faking the DRK invoice? How does that in any way mean the item is real? If it’s just some charity sale, I don’t think the item would be authenticated

austhrow743
5 replies
13h16m

Apple was a far smaller, less significant company in 2001. Much less chance that someone would go to the effort to make a fake employee 10 badge back then.

callalex
4 replies
12h27m

Calling Apple small and insignificant in 2001 is just…not factually accurate. As someone who lived through that time I don’t really know what the most useful citation to provide you would be. If you knew what a computer was, you knew what Apple was many times over, and how they were the revolutionary™ brand even back then. For goodness sake, 2001 is post-iMac by several years/generations.

wongarsu
0 replies
7h0m

I owned a computer in 2001 in Germany and was at best vaguely aware Apple made computers. From 2001 onward they became known for making really good MP3 players though

p_l
0 replies
10h12m

Apple's perceived status was bigger in USA than elsewhere. Don't know about Germany, but in Poland Mac at the time was pretty much pigeonholed into few artistic endeavours[1] or DTP - you were most likely to see something Mac related because a publishing company preparing ads made a screenshot on a mac when trying to make and showing webpage in a web browser.

[1] And by 2001 was not that far from there being reasonable discussion whether you should not instead get an Atari ST if you wanted to do electronic music. (there was sorta ecosystem for ST as midi controller that was still surviving, at least in Poland, partially thanks to disco scene)

justsomehnguy
0 replies
11h32m

For goodness sake, 2001 is post-iMac by several years/generations

Oh come on, G3 is 1998, G4 is 2002.

No other objections though. My favourite anecdote about that time is what Sex in the City had a MacBook, specifically PowerBook G3, as, well, a solid part of the story and even had a dedicated episode!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWSZJXhOvBw

hennell
0 replies
8h13m

"Apple was a far smaller, less significant company in 2001" != "Apple were small and insignificant"

If you were into computers in 2001 you'd have heard of Apple, for the general population I'd bet a reasonable percentage would have had little knowledge of them then, and key to the argument here - far far less knowledge or interest than people would today.

Regardless of their significance at the time, there's no way a bit of Apple memorabilia would have commanded the same price or interest then as it would now. Be like selling an autographed John Oliver photo in 2005. He was hardly insignificant on the UK comedy scene at that time, he had a radio show, was on TV shows. But he was _far less significant_ than he is now

KerrAvon
4 replies
13h39m

It’s an attempt to create plausible deniability — “I bought it from someone else who said it was real.” The problem being that no one would think such a thing was valuable back in 2001; Apple was in much better shape than in the mid-90’s, but it wasn’t that far from Dell suggesting they shut down the company. ebay really should yank this person’s account.

yumong
3 replies
12h26m

They bought it for 3000 DM and then sell it for less than half that price over 20 years later?

mewpmewp2
2 replies
9h26m

They have trouble supporting their family after Covid19 happened and they lost their job. Please have some empathy.

yumong
1 replies
6h26m

Do we have aby indication that that's true? They are trying (and apparently succeeded) to sell something that's quite obviously fake. Whatever else they claim should be viewed in the light of that lie.

samtheprogram
0 replies
5h54m

GP was being sarcastic. It’s indeed a part of a sob story meant to dissuade potential buyers from looking over things too deeply.

kristopolous
1 replies
11h53m

I'd imagine forgers get some enjoyment out of the craft.

It's kinda like asking a painter to paint.

Doesn't mean they'll be good, but they probably like doing it

qup
0 replies
6h38m

And leveling up

s0rce
0 replies
15h24m

This is what I thought, its not like a receipt from Sotheby's.

neilv
13 replies
17h34m

I'm not going to speculate on the truth of allegations of fraud here, but two side points:

* A few times skimming this, I didn't understand some of the assertions and logic. For example, I couldn't say just by glancing at the photos that the card wasn't filled out on an IBM Selectric II (introduced in 1971, before Apple was founded). For another example, I see people commenting on VAT tax missing on the receipt from the German Red Cross, and also the confusion over whether it was bought on eBay or from the German Red Cross, but no mention of whether that invoice might be something that the German Red Cross adapted to work with early eBay doing the payments (at least in the US, sales tax for online purchases was very murky, and eBay punted). Also, the author seems to be ignoring cross-cultural differences, in their psychoanalytic speculation about subtleties of seller's behavior, such as seller's perceived earnestness in composing a photo.

* This article is going out of its way to publicly defame someone. If they have strong evidence of the counterfeiting and fraud that they allege, they should be going to a legal authority. Given that they decided to get Internet Points out of it, they'd better hope that their allegations are correct, and also that they can prove it sufficiently if sued in some jurisdiction. I would guess that glomming onto mob behavior ("We did it, Reddit!") won't be a good defense.

goosedragons
7 replies
17h20m

If you look at the employee #8 badge it has an issue date of 3/17/77. So how is employee #10's 3/10/77? There's lots of holes.

neilv
2 replies
16h56m

* If you look at the employee #8 badge it has an issue date of 3/17/77. So how is employee #10's 3/10/77? There's lots of holes.*

For "lots of holes", I think that's not a great one to single out as an example.

This is a tiny company, in California, in the 1970s..., and we're assuming, ahem, German precision, around when they can get a nerd to sit for a photo to laminate an ID card?

Again, like I said upfront, I'm not commenting on the truth of the allegations -- just commenting on the weak Internet detective work.

The article says:

When in doubt, Engage The Internet®

The Internet can be dumb as snot. Have doubt.

filmgirlcw
0 replies
15h15m

The Internet can be dumb as snot. Have doubt.

Yeah, that’s sort of the point of the original post. Have doubt.

One of the central rules of the internet (and outside the internet. But especially on the internet.) is that people are often fucking liars. This is especially true when it comes to memorabilia.

This seller’s history is littered selling so-called authentic things like business cards and concert tickets and based on this incident, I personally think every single one of them is fraudulent.

You might like playing contrarian to defend the honor of an obvious forger, and that’s your right. But it isn’t defamation to call a liar a liar. Truth is an affirmative defense.

Someone with an actual Apple badge from that era said the badge is fake. The text doesn’t match that person’s badge. The photo use for Sherry is obviously both a stock photo and too high resolution to be used on an employee badge from a tiny company in California in the 1970s. The badge is too well-preserved, even for a relic that the seller claims to have purchased in 2001 (or was it 2003 or 2004, seeing as their own story kept changing). There are so many red flags when looking at this thing that it doesn’t matter if one of the proof points doesn’t live up to your standards. This is a fake item.

You’re the one trying to score internet points, not the author who was sharing an interesting exchange he had with a seller who was not only selling a fake item, but probably also forged receipt documents related to the fake item.

djao
0 replies
14h25m

The employee #8 badge, which we know is real, is typed in a completely different font from the #10 badge, has different dimensions, different photo dimensions, and the photos were clearly taken with dramatically different cameras and lighting. None of these differences makes any sense if the #10 badge (supposedly made within a week of the #8 badge) is real.

queuebert
0 replies
14h32m

An amazing game that is secretly propaganda to make people respect and appreciate bureaucracy.

Glory to Arstotzka!

I_AM_A_SMURF
1 replies
15h42m

That's not necessarily a hole. Maybe Employee #8 was hired before #10 but had a later start date, hence a different issue date.

jonathankoren
0 replies
15h30m

Yeah, it’s an “issue date” someone just didn’t go across the room and get it. Also, the early employee numbers are famously semibogus. Jobs was 0 because he hated coming after Woz, who was 1.

poizan42
1 replies
17h2m

* Chris says it's not a picture of Sherry

* The issue date of the badge for employee number 10 predates that of employee number 8

* The German invoice uses American comma separator

* The German invoice is also missing the invoicing entitiy's legally required information, is missing VAT and uses American terms.

trelane
0 replies
15h45m

Also, "Wir danken Ihnen für Ihr Unternehmen?"

Really?!

jprete
0 replies
16h19m

Yes, there are worlds in which a huge series of accidents and coincidences explain how this person isn't a scammer. They're just unbelievably unlikely to the point of being able to disregard the possibility entirely.

anewcolor
0 replies
17h21m

The picture in the ID is not a photo of Sherry Livingston (says Chris, who knows Sherry)

Retr0id
0 replies
17h19m

they should be going to a legal authority

I'd really hope legal authorities have better things to do than act as arbitrators of provenance of niche-interest historic artifacts. Without being the person who "won" the auction, I doubt you'd even get your foot in the door.

ttepasse
12 replies
15h41m

I find myself fascinated by the forged DRK invoice. At first glance it looks like the shitty desktop formatting common to 2001, its in a German two ring binder, crumpled and yellowed.

But then there are multiple things which are obviously and subtile off, the most glaring is the obviously AI-translated phrase at the bottom. I'd love to know the mind of the forger. They did put some serious work into the invoice but then AI-translated an idiomatic American phrase (wrongly!) which wouldn’t by used on a German invoice.

It’s accepted that the US movies and television industry can’t get contemporary Germany right [1], often for economic limitations of the productions, but something that still get’s me is when the badly pronounced dialogue was obviously written in idiomatic English and only then translated mindlessly word for word, as if other countries cultures and languages are semantically the same, only the words are different. Maybe that’s what happened with the forger - you can’t know there would be differences if you don’t have a sensibility for difference.

[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/AskAGerman/comments/1ct1k73/what_is...

Maxion
5 replies
12h54m

AI-translated phrase at the bottom. I'd love to know the mind of the forger. They did put some serious work into the invoice but then AI-translated an idiomatic American phrase (wrongly!) which wouldn’t by used on a German invoice.

This is especially stupid because LLMs like ChatGPT CAN output phrases that wouldn't be out of tune. I assume the forger got that phrase by literally asking the LLM to translate an english phrase to german, rather than asking the LLM what would be a good german phrase to use.

croes
2 replies
12h34m

Or he didn't use a LLM at all, they were translation programs before ChatGPT

astrange
1 replies
9h28m

LLMs are based on the model architecture for Google Translate, so it's not a whole lot different. Of course they're much more "intelligent".

croes
0 replies
6h48m

But we don't know what site was used for the translation.

There is more than ChatGPT and Google Translate

winkelmann
1 replies
12h22m

literally asking the LLM to translate an english phrase to german

I tried it a few times on arena.lmsys.org and given the prompt "Please translate "We thank you for your business" into German", the most common result was "Wir danken Ihnen für Ihr Geschäft", I got one bad result from some random tiny model and some more extensive responses from Gemini with suggestions for more idiomatic expressions. Modern LLMs are typically smart enough to understand this nuance when translating to German.

selfhoster11
0 replies
10h13m

That’s an interesting result. I’ve re-run your prompt with one change (made it “translate idiomatically” instead) to guide models towards a more natively German mode of expression and a few actually came back with a more appropriate phrase than that literal translation.

gield
4 replies
10h45m

It’s accepted that the US movies and television industry can’t get contemporary Germany right

The US movies and television industry can rarely get any language right. This reminds me of the Dutch-speaking scene in Oppenheimer which no Dutch speaker can understand [1]. It's like a sped-up pronunciation of a nonsense Dutch sentence by an English-speaker trying to speak a horrible German accent.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFORgWaYrBU

roywashere
1 replies
7h46m

Also, in "Spider-Man: Far From Home", a 2019 movie with a 160M budget, they go to "The Netherlands" which was shot in Chech Republic, and it looks like Prague but with tulips, with a Polish actor supposedly talking Dutch. And then Spider-Man gets arrested and thrown in a "Dutch" jail which does not look at all like a Dutch jail, but is obviously some middle-european building, which makes sense as "Amsterdam" was shot in Prague too

dagw
0 replies
3h40m

"The Netherlands" which was shot in Chech Republic

To be fair, they do this with a lot of location in the US as well. "New York" is often Atlanta or Toronto in many American movies.

scoot
0 replies
7h27m

The video you linked to says that in the movie it's explained that Oppenheimer spoke German, and learned Dutch in a short amount of time. If so, him speaking Dutch with a German accent seems appropriate, if slightly exaggerated.

However a novice in a foreign language will speak more slowly than natives, not more quickly, even if reading a prepared speech (as was likely the case in that setting, and especially given the advanced language used that no beginner would have mastered), so not sure what the thinking was there.

davedx
0 replies
9h59m

Ha yeah I remember that part. I speak Dutch and it basically sounded like German to me? Really strange.

aaron695
0 replies
12h57m

When we forged some documents it had a photo of a grotesque in the background. We worked out where it was and photographed it ourselves. Had to stand on a trash can to get the angle.

We joked our documents were high quality than the original, which they were.

Used them for years.

Do it. It all makes sense after actually doing it yourself. People think forgers copy pixel by pixel but it's remaking assets.

We guessed the iso standard on the barcodes. We were no experts. We probably got it right, but you have to do this on every asset.

informal007
10 replies
17h49m

Why people will pay much to buy those kinds of thing that can't identify?

gosub100
8 replies
17h33m

They implicitly trust the facilitator of the transaction. It's a variation on the "greater fool" scam. They think it's the old days where the auction house had any skin in the game, they're not wise to the old (in this case almost 30 year old) silicon valley grift: we profit off a scam, but [ its such small amounts/backed by enormous VC capital/"safe" (for the scammer) harbor/ done across state lines/authorized by predatory ToS (with arbitration clause) ] that the victim is powerless. Thanks for playing, better luck next time :D

throwaway290
6 replies
16h45m

You sneakily jump from "victim is trusting" to "victim is powerless"

Yes the victim is trusting because he probably won't think to authenticate the fake.

The victim is not powerless, actually. the victim has all the power to get money back. many stories how very easy to get a transaction reversed with paypal/ebay and leave the seller holding the bag, even if the seller is legit.

nullc
3 replies
15h50m

The victim is not powerless, actually. the victim has all the power to get money back. many stories how very easy to get a transaction reversed with paypal/ebay and leave the seller holding the bag, even if the seller is legit.

Ebay's policies have substantially reversed from where they were in the past and the scammer's know it. Make sure to always pay for ebay with a credit card to be confident that you can reverse fraudulent transactions.

amatecha
1 replies
13h29m

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure your eBay and PayPal accounts will get banned if you chargeback a transaction.

nullc
0 replies
12h25m

I've performed a very large chargeback against eBay without any ban. YMMV.

throwaway290
0 replies
12h41m

Fun times...

gosub100
1 replies
15h54m

eBay sneakily allows the listing to be posted in the first place, even though they have access to the same information as the rest of us. They trust that there will always be a greater fool, they trust that they can claim "we didn't know! you assume the risk when you buy this stuff, we're just a third party ", again, SV shenanigans. Not innovation or even an honest business.

hi-v-rocknroll
0 replies
15h31m

eBay allows sellers to offer all sorts of fake and illegal shit because it's profitable and most people don't know the difference.

There are tons of pirated games and software being sold as original "electronic downloads".

And where else would stolen items be sold, including carrier- and Apple-blacklisted iPhones that cannot be activated?

talldayo
0 replies
16h59m

Bingo. Some rich shmuck who's collecting Imagineering memorabilia and Avatar 3D movie cutouts will see that on Ebay and think it's a great deal. Maybe another 20 such people ignore it because it's sketchy (or because they read an article like this), but somebody less-informed will take the risk and give the seller a profit.

When I first read the article, my knee-jerk reaction was that this is a victimless crime. If you pay $700 for a laminated square that has an Apple employee on it, you probably shouldn't get upset when your due-diligence fails you and it's a fake.

hi-v-rocknroll
0 replies
15h34m

Most low information buyers can't grok provenance.

ecshafer
9 replies
15h55m

I think its mildly interesting that Apple went through the trouble of making employee ids when they have 10 people. That seems a bit superfluous at that size. Unless of course they made them when they were larger, and still just added numbers for people.

mozman
5 replies
15h31m

I think it aligns with the strategy of pretending to be bigger than you are so you can attract business customers.

An old startup I worked at used customer IDs in communications that started from an arbitrary 5 digit number to give a false impression of our customer base.

TillE
2 replies
6h6m

That was really common among shareware developers back in the day, one guy sort of pretending to be a big serious company. I suspect Tim Sweeney was joining this trend but also mocking it with the name "Epic MegaGames".

It's definitely not how people act these days, at least with indie/solo game developers.

mentos
1 replies
5h22m

When I was running my Ultima Online emulator in highschool there was a "Welcome, there are currently 6 other players in the world."

Can you guess what I did in the early days to eventually grow the server to over 2000 real active players?

aspenmayer
0 replies
3h35m

Did you spoof the value server side or run bots?

Maybe some portion of the 2000 organic players were also running bots?

I ran some personal bots back in the Diablo 2 days with D2Loader and some shareware bot plug-in I bought on a shady site for like $12 in ~2003-2004 or so. Wish I could remember the name.

https://web.archive.org/web/20100813125735/http://d2loader.b...

Apparently there are modern versions of D2Loader type software. I haven’t really followed the game or the bot scene much these days, but I like the cat and mouse game in general across the physical and virtual space. Red teaming scratches that itch I guess.

https://github.com/shupershuff/Diablo2RLoader

keyringlight
0 replies
5h39m

Another angle I've seen is different types of id numbers within an organization start with a different digit, even if they're all the same length. The CRM system doesn't care, but it prevents mixups on the human side

ender341341
0 replies
10h38m

similarly it's used to be super common to get checkbooks starting with a higher check number cause some places were cautious of taking check #1 from someone assuming they didn't have any sort of credit history.

fyrn_
1 replies
15h33m

Just because it's employ ID #10 does not mean they made them when they hired the 10th employee. Probably it was later

p_l
0 replies
8h49m

It's both for "corporate social capital" and for practical necessities.

Employee IDs pretty much start happening when you end up getting actual space that isn't your garage or repurposed residential buildings, especially if you're doing manufacturing of any kind.

Then you might want to have employee IDs if only for minimal security (contractors! Visitors!) or workplace safety reasons (tracking who was left in the building, for example).

It is, also, a sign of "making it somewhere", yes - along with some of the above parts also making up the "corporate social capital".

Similarly using customized paperwork, having logos, branding style etc. all helps to build up a company image that might help in landing sales or investors or whatever.

DEADMINCE
7 replies
12h38m

The author is a little paranoid IMO. Sure given his suspicions I assumed this was more a case of a broken clock being correct twice a day.

For example:

But, again again, I had a weird feeling — this series of photos was trying too hard. That binder labelled “BILLS 200[0]—2010”, conveniently flipped upside down for casual authenticity? Why would you put that in these photos unless you were trying a bit too hard to make your case?

That's just ridiculous.

croes
1 replies
12h37m

But in the end he was right

DEADMINCE
0 replies
7h10m

About the base claim sure, not about anything regarding the staging of photos though.

cabel
1 replies
12h8m

It's totally ok that you wouldn't have had the same gut feeling — but I absolutely did. I wrote that because it seemed like the binder was unnecessary information posed specifically in the photo to try to gain my trust. I think that's largely because the binder was unnecessary information posed specifically in the photo to try to gain my trust.

Bonus trivia I didn't mention: if you look at the invoice preceding the one in the binder, it has the logo for the 1992 (!) Barcelona Olympics at the top. A real weird thing to put in your 'Bills 2000 — 2010' binder! I do think this binder is totally real, but should actually be labelled 'My Forged Invoices' ;)

DEADMINCE
0 replies
7h10m

I wrote that because it seemed like the binder was unnecessary information posed specifically in the photo to try to gain my trust

As opposed to just being something he grabbed to use as a quick kind of table? I mean out of the two possibilities of just quickly throwing something on the couch to use as a platform to take a photo or purposely trying to set up a staged scene to look 'casual', I think Occam would say the first is significantly more likely.

Nothing wrong with having suspicions or gut feelings, but this just seemed a stretch too far to me personally. Nice article though!

UberFly
1 replies
12h23m

Seems ok to me. Just a stream of pure intuition that ended up being totally correct.

DEADMINCE
0 replies
7h10m

Well, the base claim was sure, not anything regarding the staging of photos though.

yumong
0 replies
12h29m

I'd also ask how come a single binder would suffice for 10 years of bills.

mavili
6 replies
12h48m

Maybe because my first language isn't English but "forged" to me implies card would've been used for access, or at least attempted, and therefore I feel like the title is click-bait. Had it said "fake" instead I would probably not think the same.

That aside, if he hasn't already he should've reported to eBay immediately so the buyer isn't conned.

callalex
3 replies
12h1m

What word would you use in your native language to mean

1) historical document/artifact that was created later by a liar

2) A written signature on a document trying to impersonate someone who didn’t actually read and approve of said document

3) An ID card a teenager uses to gain entrance to a bar/club

4) a verbal statement that the speaker knows is false when said, for example “of course that dress does not make you look fat” (does this word change if the receiver also knows the statement is false? In English I would call this a “white lie”)

5) A body part that has been altered with surgery (silicone implants, saline injections)

mavili
2 replies
10h37m

1) Fake 2) Forged 3) Forged 4) Lie 5) Fake

As you can probably tell, from my understanding (possibly wrong connection) I think of the word 'to forge' in the context of actually trying to get access to somewhere or something with fake documents. When the intention or the consequence of using such document is more for monetary or material gain, I tend to think of it as fake.

I suppose dictionary definition does allow for both usage, i.e. to forge is to make a fake resemblance of something.. etc. I didn't think not knowing accurate definition of a word warranted downvotes but oh well.

MarceColl
1 replies
8h33m

I didn't think not knowing accurate definition of a word warranted downvotes

I think the downvotes comes from then accusing the person writing it of clickbait. So while it's fine to not know the accurate definition of a word, it's not so fine to accuse the author of something because you don't know the accurate definition.

mavili
0 replies
1h34m

Sure, but to be honest with my explanation I actually have a point with the distinction between fake and forged. Here is an excerpt:

A textbook definition of forgery is the making of a false document with the intent that it should be used or acted upon as if it's genuine.

Notice the "with the intent that it should be ACTED upon", and given no one would be using a historic fake ID to use it for access, I think I have a point. Anyway..

arantius
0 replies
3h47m

I guess I'll be that guy. "forgery" is an even better form of the word to discuss (the noun -- and of course a forgery is forged), specifically:

3 : an act of forging especially : the crime of falsely and fraudulently making or altering a document (such as a check)

Fraudulently making a document. That's this to a tee.

amatecha
6 replies
13h55m

Oh man, I was getting in on that Mastodon thread at the time (particularly scrutinizing the "receipt", like how it shows fresh creases/folds despite having supposedly been in a plastic sleeve and squished between pages in a binder for 20+ years), and hoped there would be enough momentum that the fraudulent item would be pulled. I'm very disappointed to learn someone actually bought this fake stuff. Sad times.

roywashere
1 replies
7h41m

The other thing with the receipt is that the dimensions are off: it is not tall enough, it seems like it's printed on US Letter paper, whereas in Germany it definitely would be printed on A4 paper, which is taller than Letter.

qingcharles
0 replies
2h50m

This would be the biggest tell as I don't even know where you would buy Letter paper in Europe. It's hard enough to buy A4 in the USA. I'm in the USA and I'm a jerk who prints things on A4 and mails them out just to make sure they don't fit in anyone's filing system.

callalex
1 replies
12h32m

I have a hard time feeling bad for someone who can be that uncritical before spending $1000. At that point the buyer is clearly looking to spend money for good feelings, not artifacts, so they probably actually got their money’s worth.

wruza
0 replies
10h26m

Yes, they buy a piece of paper for memories and they have it. Real or fake is irrelevant as this whole thing with collection and art is irrational. It must just look real enough to you and your guests to serve its purpose.

modzu
0 replies
13h42m

i mean, if nothing else, its art

ipqk
0 replies
4h19m

eBay just doesn’t care about fakes. I’ve reported many things over the years and they almost never get removed. I’ve pretty much given up.

labcomputer
5 replies
15h0m

I'm surprised that neither the blog post nor the comments here yet mentioned another obvious giveaway to the forgery:

The photo and card inside the plastic lamination show signs of wear. Parts of the photo are rubbed off around the edge, and the paper is stained. At the same time, the lamination is relatively clean. How does that make any sense? That's suspicious, even without seeing Espinosa's badge.

[edit: the photo of Espinosa's badge shows a worn lamination and clean, unworn paper and photo]

On top of that, the lamination has a cutout so it can be attached to a lanyard or retractor. The cutout shows no sign of wear.

It's as if the forger imagined company badges work like library cards: You keep them in your wallet, and only remove them to check out a book. In the forger's head canon, the company must have later decided to laminate the badges (without replacing them!) and require everyone had to wear them visibly (hence the cutout).

It makes no sense.

labcomputer
1 replies
14h18m

Sure, but the point is that the hole shows the badge is meant to be clipped to something and worn in a visible place. As such, it will naturally bump into things and the lamination will accrue wear marks.

refurb
0 replies
12h7m

I noticed the badge hole too. It looks present punched and never been used.

astrange
1 replies
9h26m

I keep my badge in my pocket since the clip occasionally wears out, and I don't think anyone has ever commented on this.

ghaff
0 replies
8h58m

Probably depended how security conscious where you worked was. Pretty common into at least to 80s was a clip that attached to your front shirt pocket which pretty much everyone had and badge readers weren’t mostly a thing. If security were laxer you often just kept the badge in your pocket. But as another comment notes you didn’t tend to just keep your badge in your wallet.

croes
4 replies
12h25m

Who would have paid 3000 Marks for an Apple badge in 2001?

tjungblut
3 replies
12h4m

and why would the German red cross own it and sell it on Ebay? Ebay wasn't even a thing back when the DM was still around.

londons_explore
0 replies
11h32m

Germany has always been a rather privacy conscious country.

Even now, I suspect if that badge fell into the hands of most Germans, they would either try to return it to it's owner or shred it on the basis that it's someone else's private data.

croes
0 replies
11h41m

That was the forgers error. At first he claimed he bought it from the Red Cross in 2001 and didn'tmention how, then he claimed it was one of the first items he bought on ebay in 2003/2004 and didn't mention from whom he bought it, implying he bought it inlcuding the invoice.

chrizel
0 replies
10h36m

That's not true. I have a German eBay account from May 2001 when we still had the DM. eBay was very popular back then and had a completely different feeling because it was mostly used by private individuals for selling their stuff instead of mostly professional merchants like it is today.

throwaway22032
3 replies
16h29m

I feel as if the article is missing the important detail that eBay auctions are full, absolutely full, of fake/timewaster bids.

I've basically given up on the auction format entirely because of the number of people that try to "pull out" not realising that their offer is binding.

csomar
2 replies
15h47m

eBay is so full of garbage I don't understand how they have $10bn of revenue. Yes, that's billions. But then maybe there is a huge garbage market opportunity out there.

phyzome
0 replies
5h53m

They're a pretty reliable source for used electronics. I go to them every time my favorite out-of-production camera breaks and I want to get another of the same model.

mrguyorama
0 replies
3h22m

The reality is that eBay is full of great electronics and car parts, and sell shitloads of both. Also most things on amazon that are just drop shipped alibaba stuff can be found on eBay for cheaper and less marketing bullshit.

mgoetzke
3 replies
12h57m

He went to so much trouble with the Red Cross thing to forget its DM for Deutsche Mark instead of DEM.

rcbdev
0 replies
12h34m

In the old SAP docs they do write it as DEM.

netsharc
0 replies
12h12m

And using slash as the date separator. Germans are taught to write dates as DD.MM.YYYY

Kwpolska
0 replies
9h20m

Accounting software might have used ISO 4217 currency symbols (DEM, USD) instead of local symbols (DM, $).

art3m
3 replies
17h25m

More likely that seller truly purchased this on Ebay before and just resisting to admit (or investigate) that he bought fake item.

nardi
2 replies
17h19m

I would agree, except the seller seems to have made a new forgery of their receipt on the fly in response to Cabel's inquiry, which leads me to believe they probably made the original forgery as well.

aix1
0 replies
4h46m

And here's Steve Jobs thanking someone for an amazing "proyect":

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285775420457

(same seller.)

P.S. The seller is located in Spain. :)

Nerada
3 replies
16h50m

This is honestly something that would be interesting to own. It's not $950 interesting, but interesting nonetheless, just for a conversation piece about an elaborate forgery.

I've always wanted to either create or purchase intricate set props like the journal from Supernatural [0]. Fantastically fake, but just interesting to have.

[0] https://waywardjournal.tumblr.com/post/187259600588/reapers

stoltzmann
1 replies
12h17m

You know, you could also have a forged forged employee badge. Give me a hundred quid and I'll forge one for you. Throw in some extra and I'll make sure it's extra forged and you'll have a story to tell to your friends.

knallfrosch
0 replies
11h49m

But please don't send him the original #10 Apple employee badge. That would be fraud. In a sense, it would be a forged forged forged badge.

phyzome
0 replies
5h51m

Maybe, but I wouldn't pay more than about $50 for such a forgery...

Maro
3 replies
14h15m

I think the price is also a yellow flag. $1k seems to low..

croes
2 replies
12h27m

It's just the starting bid

yumong
1 replies
12h8m

From somebody who paid more than that 20 years ago?

croes
0 replies
11h46m

Lower starting bids attract more people, sometime leads to higher end bid because of bidding wars

raverbashing
2 replies
17h56m

Here's the thing, I don't think the purchaser of that listing was worried it was fake.

Though it's weird that Chris's typewriter part looks more fake than the faked card (it's supposed to be an IBM printer rather than a typewriter it seems)

floren
0 replies
15h39m

It's supposed to be typed with the "Orator" typeball for the IBM Selectric typewriter.

FabHK
0 replies
16h29m

Agreed. The "original" seemed to use a proportional font (with a very narrow "I"), while the fake seemed to use a mono-spaced non-proportional (with a wide "I"), which seemed more plausible to me (for a typewriter).

eloisant
2 replies
9h36m

Also, as cool as it is, I don't think it would have been worth 3000DEM in 2001. Adjusted for inflation it's worth almost 3000 of today's USD.

That was just a month after the release of the original iPod, that eventually brought back Apple to relevancy. Apple was still the small competitor that Microsoft kept alive to avoid more problems in their anti-trust lawsuit.

pcurve
0 replies
4h49m

Exactly. At this time, people were either giving or throwing away vintage Apple products because most had very little value in the secondary. I know I did too.

Cockbrand
0 replies
2h7m

Very good point! I was an Apple fanboy back then, and I bought quite a few vintage Apple things on eBay for next to nothing at the time. Even 10% of the stated amount would have seemed quite expensive for this item in 2001.

cdchn
2 replies
15h38m

Interesting that the exchange with the real Apple employee happened on Mastodon. Seems to be breaking the critical mass for serendipitous exchange.

yreg
0 replies
4h47m

Talking about forgeries of early Apple employee badges is far from a non-nerdy topic to be fair.

archagon
0 replies
13h57m

In fairness, Espinosa's been on Mastodon for years.

Tempest1981
2 replies
14h24m

More interesting question:

Your friend pulls out the fake badge, proud of himself for having the winning bid on eBay... "check it out! badge #10!"

Do you tell them that it's fake? Or let them live happily in their joy-filled bubble?

emmender2
0 replies
3h36m

When you tell them it is a fake, they will believe more strongly that it is real.

Dont we all live in the joyful bubble of beliefs many of which have no basis ?

dkjaudyeqooe
0 replies
14h19m

You tell them so that they can get a refund from ebay, if you catch them in time, also so they don't end up accused of fraud when they try to resell it.

tasuki
1 replies
8h26m

I don't know, seems like a victimless crime. Collectors gonna collect. Who cares if it's genuine or not?

astrodust
0 replies
3h50m

I don't know. Collectors?

fennecfoxy
1 replies
9h29m

And somebody still bought it...

qingcharles
0 replies
2h48m

Sadly someone has bought all of the seller's dubious other items too.

etchalon
1 replies
18h3m

This post will ensure a better fake is up on eBay tomorrow.

StrLght
0 replies
9h56m

Alternatively, it'll raise awareness. If only a few people learn to verify what exactly they're buying before paying relatively huge amounts of money — that would be a win in my book.

eps
1 replies
12h25m

Funny enough forgers now have an example of authentic badge with the list of things to focus on if they decide to make another badge.

elzbardico
1 replies
4h32m

Someone bought this.

So the lesson here is: Don't go investing on art/historical stuff unless you know really well what you're doing.

sph
0 replies
4h8m

The people that spend almost a grand in buying "historical stuff" off Ebay are the type of people with more money than sense.

robg
0 replies
2h50m

I’m surprised this comment isn’t higher, looking at the history, it seems ripe for the same type of breakdown.

KennyBlanken
1 replies
15h28m

At first, it looked good. The plastic was scuffed with age,

No, the plastic is very clearly scuffed with something abrasive like sandpaper. You'd never see wear patterns like that from age/use - it would be a very matte look, not clear scratches.

mjlee
0 replies
9h53m

But it also felt a little off. The scuffing looked… sandpapery.

Is in the very next paragraph.

ChuckMcM
1 replies
12h16m

Always interesting to see people who grift like this. My Dad used to engrave and restore guns. He was quite good at it, and so good that at one point the manufacturer's representative from Colt told him at a gun show that had my Dad not told him he would have sworn the revolver he was looking at had not been restored.

I asked him if he ever got people trying to get him to "enhance" the value of their guns and he laughed and said, "Ayup, all the time."

Art and antique forgery has always been kind of fascinating to me for that reason.

scoot
0 replies
7h12m

Did I understand correctly that your dad was so good at restoring guns that they didn't appear to have been restored? Could you explain what they means?

yatz
0 replies
3h14m

On a side note, next person who tries to fake it should have a better idea about how to make it more real :-)

tsavo
0 replies
22m

Before scrolling down, the first images tell me this was fake. The laminate is the all wrong. Intimately aware of laminate devices & materials used during the period.

Source: me, during that time I oversaw security at a Fortune 500, issuing thousands (literally) of IDs for "limited access" areas (DataCenters, SOC, etc) in multiple facilities.

toddmorey
0 replies
14h47m

This sort of appeal for empathy too (in the context of an auction or collectable) is also a big red flag:

"I honestly hate to sell it but since Covid19 I'm unemployed and need to support my family."

system2
0 replies
12h20m

How about reporting it to eBay so they can refund the money and ban this person?

EDIT: I reported it myself including the original article.

ocdtrekkie
0 replies
3h29m

The picture of "Sherry" also looks like an output from This Person Does Not Exist. Ears are mismatched, eyes are centered perfectly, etc.

markhahn
0 replies
5h43m

Can anyone else upload pictures of their Apple ID badges? I figure it'll save time and effort if we just collect them into a Huggingface dataset...

havkom
0 replies
1h23m

But now with 856+ points on HN about it, it is probably a valuable relic!

goertzen
0 replies
3h51m

Whoever bought this should include this blog post. The forgery/story is more valuable than original/real badge.

frogpelt
0 replies
3h19m

I’m not sure if I would have considered it a fake or not without the title drawing the conclusion for me. But it reminds me of talking to someone who adds too many details to a story to make it more believable. Liars are notorious for “remembering” very obscure details. And these pictures give me the same feeling. I agree with the author of the post that it tries too hard.

duxup
0 replies
3h52m

I just assume most everything with any date related value, rarity, antiques, etc sold on Ebay ... are fake or fake-ish.

I casually collect coins and on Ebay there are known high volume scammers selling fakes or coins with heavily doctored images, Ebay doesn't care.

It's to the point that I only by cheap stuff when it comes to thinks I collect that is less likely to be faked or I just don't collect at all. Sad situation.

croes
0 replies
6h46m

The starting bid was $950 but the final was $946.

So he lowered the starting bit in-between

chrisstanchak
0 replies
2h10m

Plot twist...Cabel is the seller. This is just to cover his tracks.

brlnwest
0 replies
9h7m

great detective work by Cabel! Always loved his attention to detail.

achow
0 replies
3h21m

This nailed it..

That [picture of employee] wasn’t taken with a Polaroid with a flash.

Not worthwhile for a forger (unless from a Hollywood movie) to go extra mile for. There is some lesson there for a budding forensic investigator.

__MatrixMan__
0 replies
4h3m

I used to fake a lot of ids back in the day. Mostly so I could buy beer, sometimes so I could take the ACT for people (in exchange for beer, something about taking a friend's money felt dishonest). Selling them as collectors' items... thats a new one.

SoftTalker
0 replies
14h58m

eBay is a cesspool of fraud and forgeries. It would be more surprising if the badge were genuine.

Findecanor
0 replies
8h40m

My first thought was that perhaps it could be a movie prop from perhaps "Pirates of Silicon Valley" or some other movie about Apple but the badly faked provenance proves that it is not even that.

ChrisMarshallNY
0 replies
9h43m

This type of forgery is becoming quite common.

I participate in a community that has some historical literature, where early editions of our literature fetch fairly significant premiums. It’s a relatively obscure community, so there’s a pretty limited market.

There are some extremely well-done forgeries. I am told they come from China, but I suspect the means to make them, are available in many venues.

I heard a story about a guy that purchased a Winchester rifle from an estate auction. It was one of those old western-style guns, with the repeater action. As an original, it was worth a great deal.

He took it to an expert, who almost immediately declared it a forgery. He said it was mainly because it was in too good a shape. It was supposed to be over 150 years old, and looked like it was only ten years old.

I have also heard, from a watchmaker I knew, that Rolex forgeries are so good, that even seasoned watchmakers are fooled, and the only way to tell, is to open the watch.