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The xz attack shell script

bandrami
87 replies
20h47m

As a longtime autotools-hater I would say this justifies my position, but any build system complex enough to be multiplatform is going to be inscrutable enough to let somebody slip something in like this. But it really is a problem that so much software is built with what's essentially become a giant cargo cult-style shell script whose pieces no one person understands all of.

echoangle
68 replies
20h37m

I think the common usage of bash and other languages with a dense and complicated syntax is the root problem here. If build scripts were written in python, you would have a hard time obfuscating backdoors, because everyone would see that it is weird code. Bash code is just assumed to be normal when you can’t read it.

kimixa
49 replies
20h28m

I think the issue is that build systems are often build on a completely different language - python with some weird build framework is likely as inscrutable as bash and autotools to someone who doesn't use python.

You can write pretty straightforward readable bash, just as I'm sure you can write pretty gnarly python. Especially if you're intentionally trying to obfuscate.

sanderjd
29 replies
18h26m

Man, this sounds right, but I dunno ... I feel like even "simple" shell scripts tend toward more inscrutability than all but the most questionable python code I've ever written. Just comparing my dotfiles - every bit of which I understood when I wrote them - to the gnarliest sections of a big python app I work on ... I just really feel like at least some of this inscrutability issue can truly be laid at the feet of shell / bash as a language.

dboreham
12 replies
13h17m

Shell is evil mainly because it's so old. It's largely unchanged since 1978 and had to run on incredibly resource limited machines. What it could achieve on those machines was amazing. Tradeoffs would be different today, e.g. PowerShell.

SlightlyLeftPad
8 replies
11h51m

A big pet peeve of mine is that shell is written off as evil but the only reason I ever hear is basically a variation of “I don’t understand it, therefore it scares me.” The reality is, unlike _really_ old languages like COBOL or RPG, bash is still literally everywhere, it’s installed on practically every linux machine by default which makes deploying a shell script completely trivial. It’s certainly under appreciated and because it’s ubiquitous, widely used in build processes, there’s a responsibility to learn it. It’s not hard, it’s not a wildly complex language.

I don’t think these issues would necessarily be solved at all by waving a hand and replacing it with similarly complex build tools. Bazel, for example, can be a daunting tool to fully grasp. Any tool used should be well understood. Easier said than done of course.

Espressosaurus
6 replies
11h40m

If a language has more footguns than guns-pointed-at-not-my-feet, I consider that a problem with the language.

And shell has a lot of footguns.

SlightlyLeftPad
5 replies
11h15m

I’d argue that every language is loaded full of foot guns. If you’re encountering those foot guns on a regular basis, it’s an issue with the author.

That said, what can help drastically here are well-defined best practices and conventions built into the language which, admittedly, bash really doesn’t have.

_a_a_a_
4 replies
9h57m

Can you point to 3 python foot guns, for instance?

s1dev
3 replies
9h32m

I’m generally in agreement with the anti-bash camp, but I can name about that many :)

- Mutating default arguments to functions, so subsequent calls have different behavior

- Somewhat particular rules around creating references vs copies

- Things that look like lambda captures but aren’t quite

sanderjd
0 replies
6h14m

Yep, every language has footguns and other kinds of quirks, but I contend that the "footguns per character" ratio in shell is unusually high. (It is not unique in having a high ratio though; other popular languages, like c++ for instance, also have this issue.)

bonzini
0 replies
1h26m

- string vs. list "in" ('a' in 'a' is True, but 'a' in ['a'] is also True)

- cannot know which object attributes are private or public (and some classes use settable properties so you can't say "just don't set any attributes on non-dataclass objects")

_a_a_a_
0 replies
9h21m

Touche!

sanderjd
0 replies
6h16m

I think a good way to evaluate languages from this perspective is through the lens of how easy it is to maintain understanding over time. I have learned bash well three or four times now, but I know now that I'm never going to remember enough of its quirks through the interim periods where I'm not focused on it, to be able to grok arbitrary scripts without refreshing my memory. This is very different for languages like java, go, python, and some others, which have their quirks, sure, but a much lower quirks per character ratio.

I might agree with "it's not hard to learn it", but I don't agree with "it's not hard to remember it".

mkesper
0 replies
5h9m

I don't think PowerShell is a big improvement, though. Still allows no signature checking of functions. Shells are optimized for fast entry, not for writing comprehensible (or even secure) programs.

dheera
0 replies
3h26m

There is Xonsh which is a Python shell. I don't know why everyone hasn't switched to it already as default.

bilekas
0 replies
6h4m

Shell is evil mainly because it's so old.

I really don't understand this point, its a script language, how old is it doesn't make any difference. I've come accross some Powershell scripts that were unreadable down to its verbosity with certain things, and if you don't already know all the flags and options for it, it's hopeless to try and understand.

Both serve a purpose, neither are 'evil'.

clnhlzmn
12 replies
16h38m

This is totally true and the bash apologists are delusional.

TeMPOraL
9 replies
12h19m

So are some Python advocates, too. The thing that's worse than a bash script made of Perlish line noise, is a piece of "clean code" dead simple Python that's 80% __language__.boilerplate, 20% logic, smeared over 10x the lines because small functions calling small functions are cool. No one has enough working memory to keep track of what's going on there. Instead, your eyes glaze over it and you convince yourself you understand what's going on.

Also, Python build scripts can be living hell too, full of dancing devils that could be introducing backdoors left and right - just look at your average Conan recipe, particularly for larger/more sensitive libraries, like OpenSSL or libcurl.

_a_a_a_
7 replies
9h55m

That's a lot of emotive language, can you actually link to some actual examples.

TeMPOraL
3 replies
8h10m

I mentioned Conan recipes, didn't I? :). Those are my most recent sources of frustration.

_a_a_a_
2 replies
6h51m

I've never heard of a conan language, and a couple of URLs to some bad recipes would not go amiss.

TeMPOraL
1 replies
6h7m

Conan is a package manager for C/C++, written in Python. See: https://conan.io/.

The way it works is that you can provide "recipes", which are Python scripts, that automate the process of collecting source code (usually from a remote Git repository, or a remote source tarball), patching it, making its dependencies and transitive dependencies available, building for specific platform and architecture (via any number of build systems), then packaging up and serving binaries. There's a lot of complexity involved.

Here are the two recipes I mentioned:

libcurl: https://github.com/conan-io/conan-center-index/blob/master/r...

OpenSSL v3: https://github.com/conan-io/conan-center-index/blob/master/r...

Now, for the sake of this thread I want to highlight three things here:

- Conan recipes are usually made by people unaffiliated with the libraries they're packaging;

- The recipes are fully Turing-complete, do a lot of work, have their own bugs - therefore they should really be treated as software comonents themselves, for the purpose of OSS clearing/supply chain verification, except as far as I know, nobody does it;

- The recipes can, and do, patch source code and build scripts. There's supporting infrastruture for this built into Conan, and of course one can also do it by brute-force search and replace. See e.g. ZLib recipe that does it both at the same time:

https://github.com/conan-io/conan-center-index/blob/7b0ac710... -- `_patch_sources` does both direct search-and-replace in source files, and applies the patches from https://github.com/conan-io/conan-center-index/tree/master/r....

Good luck keeping track of what exact code goes into your program, when using Turing-complete "recipe" programs fetched from the Internet, which fetch your libraries from somewhere else on the Internet.

_a_a_a_
0 replies
5h18m

That was a really, really good answer, thanks.

medstrom
2 replies
8h12m

I can understand the frustration when those small functions are not well-named, so you have to inspect what they do.

TeMPOraL
1 replies
7h49m

You already have to inspect everything if you want to review/audit a build script. Small functions - and I specifically mean functions being written small because of misguided ideas of "clean code", as opposed to e.g. useful abstraction or reusability - become especially painful there, as you have that much more code to read, and things that go together logically (or execution-wise) are now smeared around the file.

And you can't really name such small functions well anyway, not when they're broken down for the sake of being small. Case in point, some build script I saw this week had function like `rename_foo_dll_unit_tests` calling `rename_foo_dll_in_folder` calling `rename_foo_dll` calling `rename_dlls`, a distinct call chain of four non-reused functions that should've been at most two functions.

Are all Python build scripts like that? Not really. It's just a style I've seen repeatedly. The same is the case with inscrutable Bash scripts. I think it speaks more about common practices than the language itself (notwithstanding Bash not really being meant for writing longer programs).

medstrom
0 replies
6h59m

Sounds like DRY run amok indeed. Maybe a compiler or linter could detect these cases and complain "this function is only called from one place" :)

sanderjd
0 replies
6h7m

FWIW, my comment wasn't meant to single out python as particularly good. I think the comparison I drew between its inscrutability and that of shell / bash would apply to nearly all other languages as well.

lobocinza
0 replies
14h18m

It depends on the use case. Bash code can be elegant, Python code can be ugly. I'm not saying those are the average cases but complex code regardless of the language often is ugly even with effort to make it more readable.

egorfine
0 replies
9h45m

I'm a bash apologist and I totally stand by your words. It's delusional. Bash totally has to go.

bayindirh
2 replies
8h54m

I feel like even "simple" shell scripts tend toward more inscrutability than all but the most questionable python code I've ever written.

When you use long options in bash (scripts), it becomes very readable, but it's not a widespread practice. I always use long options while writing scripts.

Consider these two examples, which is very straightforward:

- curl -fsSL $URL | bash

- curl --fail --silent --show-error --location $URL | bash

The second one almost "talks you through".

sanderjd
1 replies
6h9m

IMO, that's not where the inscrutability comes from. Rather, it is things like many useful (and thus used) constructs being implemented with line noise like `"$(foo)"`, `2>&1 &`, `${foo:-bar}`, etc., finicky control flow syntax, surprising defaults that can be changed within unclear scopes, etc.

bayindirh
0 replies
6h6m

You're right, but you can also expand these. If not syntactically, by adding temporary variables and comments around these complex parts.

It's true that Bash and Perl has one of the most contractible syntax around, but it's not impossible to make it more understandable.

However, these parts of codebases are considered "supportive" and treated as second class citizens, and never receives the same love core parts of the codebases enjoy. That's a big mistake IMO.

When you make something more readable all around, hiding things becomes harder exponentially.

echoangle
13 replies
20h22m

The problem is that obfuscated bash is considered normal. If unreadable bash was not allowed to be committed, it would be much harder to hide stuff like this. But unreadable bash code is not suspicious, because it is kind of expected. That’s the main problem in my opinion.

freedomben
5 replies
19h39m

This probably varies widely, because unreadable bash is absolutely not considered normal, nor would pass code review in any of my projects.

On a slightly different note, unless the application is written in python, it grosses me out to think of writing scripts in python. IMHO, if the script is more complex that what bash is good at (my general rule of thumb is do you need a data structure like an array or hash? then don't use bash), then use the same language that the application is written in. It really grosses me out to think of a rails application with scripts written in python. Same with most languages/platforms.

echoangle
4 replies
19h27m

What if your application is written in Rust or C? Would you write your build scripts in these languages, too? I would much prefer a simpler scripting language for this. If you’re already using a scripting language as the main language, you don’t necessarily need to pull in another language just for scripts, of course.

ycombinatrix
1 replies
16h9m

build.rs is a thing FYI

dgsb
0 replies
9h14m

or make.go, for some project it makes sense to not add another language for scripting and building tasks. It way easier for every one to have to master multiple language.

northzen
0 replies
48m

Also zig is a good example of not a scripting language which does this job.

eru
0 replies
14h56m

Writing a build script in Rust is fine-ish.

Writing anything in C is a bad idea these days, and requires active justification that only applies in some situations. Essentially, almost no new projects should be done in C.

Re-doing your build system, or writing a build system for a new project, counts as something new, so should probably not be done in C.

In general, I don't think your build (or build system) should necessarily be specified in the same language as most of the rest of your system.

However I can see that if most of your system is written in language X, then you are pretty much guaranteed to have people who are good at X amongst your developers, so there's some natural incentive to use X for the tooling, too.

In any case, I would mostly just advice against coding anything complicated in shell scripts, and to stay away from Make and autotools, too.

There are lots of modern build systems like Shake, Ninja, Bazel, etc that you can pick from. They are all have their pros and cons, just like the different distributed version control systems have their pros and cons; but they are better than autotools and bash and Make, just like almost any distributed version control is better than CVS and SVN etc.

salawat
2 replies
15h6m

...The main problem is some asshat trying to install a backdoor.

I use bash habitually, and every time I have an inscrutable or non-intuitive command, I pair it with a comment explaining what it does. No exceptions.

I also don't clean up after scripts for debuggability. I will offer an invocation to do the cleanup though after you've ascertained everything worked. Blaming this on bash is like a smith blaming a hammer failing on a carpenter's shoddy haft... Not terribly convincing.

There was a lot of intentionally obfuscatory measures at play here and tons of weaponization of most conscientious developer's adherence to the principle of least astonishment, violations of homoglyphy (using easy to mistake filenames and mixed conventions), degenerative tool invocations (using sed as cat), excessive use/nesting of tools (awk script for the RC4 decryptor), the tr, and, to crown it all, malicious use of test data!!!

As a tester, nothing makes me angrier!

A pox upon them, and may their treachery be returned upon them 7-fold!

eru
0 replies
14h52m

Blaming this on bash is like a smith blaming a hammer failing on a carpenter's shoddy haft... Not terribly convincing.

If your hammer is repurposed shoe, it's fair to blame the tools.

Terr_
0 replies
9h37m

pair it with a comment

A good practice, but not really a defense against malice, because if the expression is inscrutable enough to really need a comment, then it's also inscrutable enough that many people won't notice that the comment is a lie.

owlbite
1 replies
19h47m

I think the main issue is auto tools tries to support so many different shells/versions all with their own foibles, so the resulting cross-compatible code looks obfuscated to a modern user.

Something built on python won't cover quite as wide a range of (obsolete?) hardware.

eru
0 replies
15h2m

Python actually covers quite a lot of hardware. Of course, it does that via an autotools nightmare generated configure script.

Of course, you could do the detection logic with some autotools-like shenanigans, but then crunch the data (ie run the logic) on a different computer that can run reasonable software.

The detection should all be very small self-contained short pieces of script, that might be gnarly, but only produce something like a boolean or other small amount of data each and don't interact (and that would be enforced by some means, like containers or whatever).

The logic to tie everything together can be more complicated and can have interactions, but should be written in a sane language in a sane style.

kimixa
1 replies
20h5m

Lots of autogenerated code appears "obfuscated" - certainly less clear than if a programmer would have written it directly.

But all this relies on one specific thing about the autotools ecosystem - that shipping the generated code is considered normal.

I know of no other build system that does this? It feels weird, like shipping cmake-generated makefiles instead of just generating them yourself, or something like scons or meson being packaged with the tarball instead of requiring an eternal installation.

That's a lot of extra code to review, before you even get to any kind of language differences.

eru
0 replies
15h5m

Lots of autogenerated code appears "obfuscated" - certainly less clear than if a programmer would have written it directly.

That's why you don't commit auto-generated code. You commit the generating code, and review that.

Same reason we don't stick compiled binaries in our repositories. Binary executables are just auto-generated machine code.

deanishe
2 replies
10h31m

Python makes it relatively hard to write inscrutable code, and more importantly, it's very non-idiomatic, and there would be pushback.

WTFing at shell scripts is normal.

egorfine
1 replies
9h42m

WTFing at shell scripts is normal

"WTFing". This is brilliant.

giantrobot
0 replies
18h33m

We'll write build scripts in highly obfuscated Perl. There, now no one is happy.

Etheryte
0 replies
9h18m

This feels a bit like saying you can run as fast as Usain Bolt. Theoretically many things are possible, but I don't think I've ever seen a readable bash script beyond a trivial oneliner and I've seen a lot of bash in my life. Or to maybe explain from a different perspective, ask a room full of developers to write a bash if-else without looking at the docs and you'll probably come back with more different options than developers in the room. Ask the same for a language such as Python and you'll mostly get one thing.

sunshowers
10 replies
20h27m

It's rather easy to monkeypatch Python into doing spooky things. For something like this you really want a language that can't be monkeypatched, like I think Starlark.

echoangle
9 replies
20h24m

Where are you going to hide your monkey patching though? As long as your code is public, stuff like this is always going to stand out, because no one writes weird magic one liners in python.

sunshowers
4 replies
20h19m

I'm not a security-oriented professional, but to me a place I could hide this logic is by secretly evaling the contents of some file (like the "corrupt archive" used in xz) somewhere in the build process, hiding it behind a decorator or similar.

echoangle
2 replies
20h12m

I’m not a security professional either, but that doesn’t sound very plausible to me. If you assume a maintainer who checks every commit added to the codebase, he’s hopefully blocking you the second he sees an eval call in your build script. And even a code audit should find weird stuff like that, if the code is pythonic and simple to read. And if it’s not, it should not be trusted and should be treated as malicious.

sunshowers
1 replies
19h50m

Well, the threat model here is that a maintainer themselves is the saboteur.

cjbprime
0 replies
13h52m

That was true for this project, which was almost orphaned to begin with. We'll run out of nearly-unmaintained critical infrastructure projects sometime. Larger projects with healthier maintenance situations are also at risk, and it's worth reasoning about how a group of honest developers could discover the actions of one malicious developer (with perhaps a malicious reviewer involved too).

lijok
0 replies
20h6m

Would stick out like a sore thumb

zmmmmm
2 replies
19h41m

The way python's run time literally executes code when you import a module makes it seem pretty easy to taint things from afar. You only need to control a single import anywhere in the dependency hierarchy and you can reach over and override any code somewhere else.

sunshowers
0 replies
19h40m

Oh yeah, that's a fantastic point.

eru
0 replies
14h52m

There are lints that will warn you, if your imported module does anything apart from define functions and classes.

(Though not sure how fool-proof these are.)

cyanydeez
0 replies
19h59m

This code was essentially monkey patched from a test script. Python automatically runs any code in a imported module, so not hard to see a chain of module imports that progressively modifies and deploys a similar structure.

matheusmoreira
1 replies
19h46m

Any language can become a turing tarpit if you try hard enough.

eru
0 replies
14h50m

Some languages make you try harder, some less so.

And not all languages are Turing complete in the first place. Not even all useful languages.

vmfunction
0 replies
9h41m

Cliffy is also pretty good: https://cliffy.io

And type safe.

unhammer
0 replies
5h44m

In the beginning of Unix, m4 was created. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

autoconf creates a shell script by preprocessing with m4. So you need to know not just the intricacies of shell scripting, but also of m4, with its arcane rules for escaping: https://mbreen.com/m4.html#quotes

If autoconf used m4 to generate python scripts, they would also look like https://pyobfusc.com/#winners

heavyset_go
0 replies
13h41m

The things that Bash is good at can wind up obfuscated in Python code due to the verbosity and complexity that it translates to in Python.

Bash is great at dealing with files, text, running other programs, job handling, parallelism and IPC.

Those things in combination can end up being more complex in Python, which creates more opportunities for obfuscation.

DarkNova6
0 replies
8h41m

Yet it is python code which has the highest amount of security vulnerabilities found in public repos. And the most often times that pre-compiled code is commited as well.

AtlasBarfed
0 replies
2h27m

Just wait for AI to start pumping spaghetti code everywhere.

That's AI phase one

Hey, I phase 2 is even better disguised exploit code hiding behind acres of seemingly plausible AI generated code

jonhohle
2 replies
17h20m

The issue was that built artifacts weren’t immutable during the test phase and/or the test phase wasn’t sandboxed from the built artifacts.

The last build system I worked on separated build and test as separate stages. That meant you got a lot of useless artifacts pushed to a development namespace on the distribution server, but it also meant later stages only needed read access to that server.

edflsafoiewq
1 replies
16h21m

The malicious .o is extracted from data in binary test files, but the backdoor is inserted entirely in the build phase. Running any test phase is not necessary.

rafaelmn
0 replies
4h3m

So if you ran build without test files it would fail. I get that this is hindsight thinking - but maybe removing all non essential files when packaging/building libraries reduces the surface area.

frankohn
2 replies
10h44m

I do not agree with your generalisation, the Meson build system is well thought, it has a clear declarative syntax that let you just express what you want in a direct way.

The designer of Meson explicitly avoided making the language turing complete so for example you cannot define functions. In my experience this was an excellent decision to limit people tendency to write complex stuff and put the pressure on the Meson developer to implement themselves all the useful functionalities.

In my experience the Meson configuration are as simple as they can be and accommodate only a modicum of complexity to describe OS specific options or advanced compiler option one may need.

Please note that some projects' Meson file have been made complex because of the goal to match whatever the configure script was doing. I had in mind the crazy habits of autotools to check if the system has any possibly used function because some system may not have it.

humanrebar
0 replies
6h48m

Meson is way better than autotools, but if you're too level to depend on python, you're probably needing to customize your build scripts in the ways you mention. I don't see meson being a silver bullet there.

Also, meson's build dependencies (muon, python) are a lot for some of these projects.

Brian_K_White
0 replies
4h10m

This just results in 500x worse build.sh on top of meson/ninja/whatever.

livrem
1 replies
11h57m

I see what everyone is saying about autotools, and I never envied those that maintained the config scripts, but as an end-user I miss the days when installing almost any software was as simple as ./configure && make && make install.

humanrebar
0 replies
6h50m

Running that command is simple, sure. The development workflows when that doesn't work is full stop horrible.

Also the basic workflows for the alternative build systems have maybe ten more characters to type. It's not bad.

dpkirchner
1 replies
18h50m

Agreed, and I think this leads to the question: how much risk do we face because we want to support such a wide range of platforms that a complex system is required?

And how did we get to the point that a complex system is required to build a compression library -- something that doesn't really have to do much more than math and memory allocation?

cesarb
0 replies
17h56m

And how did we get to the point that a complex system is required to build a compression library -- something that doesn't really have to do much more than math and memory allocation?

The project in question contained a compression library, but was not limited to it; it also contained a set of command line tools (the "xz" command and several others).

And a modern compression library needs more than just "math and memory allocation"; it also needs threads (to make use of all the available cores), which is historically not portable. You need to detect whether threads are available, and which threading library should be used (pthreads is not always the available option). And not only that, a modern compression library often needs hand-optimized assembly code, with several variants depending on the exact CPU type, the correct one possibly being known only at runtime (and it was exactly in the code to select the correct variant for the current CPU that this backdoor was hidden).

And that's before considering that this is a library. Building a dynamic library is something which has a lot of variation between operating systems. You have Windows with its DLLs, MacOS with its frameworks, modern Linux with its ELF stuff, and historically it was even worse (like old a.out-based Linux with its manually pre-allocated base address for every dynamic library in the whole system).

So yeah, if you restrict yourself to modern Linux and perhaps a couple of the BSDs, and require the correct CPU type to be selected at compilation time, you could get away with just a couple of pages of simple Makefile declarations. But once you start porting to a more diverse set of systems, you'll see it get more and more complicated. Add cross-compilation to the mix (a non-trivial amount of autotools complexity is there to make cross-compilation work well) and it gets even more complicated.

shp0ngle
0 replies
20h21m

Every time someone explains to me autotools, the individual pieces sort of make sense, yet the result is always this inscrutable unreadable mess.

I don't know why.

salawat
0 replies
16h34m

Let me reword that for you:

No one has any business saying they know what something does until they've actually read it.

Beneath the placid surface of abstraction is the den of the devil.

rgmerk
0 replies
20h28m

Yeah.

I haven’t used it for some time but autoconf always seemed like a horrible hack that was impossible to debug if it didn’t work properly.

That was bad enough back in the days where one was mostly concerned with accidents, but in more modern times things that are impossible to debug are such tempting targets for mischief.

kjellsbells
0 replies
15h34m

I'm glad to see I'm not a minority of one here. Looking at autoconf and friends I'm reminded of the dreck that used to fill OpenSSL's code simply because they were trying to account for every eventuality. Autotools feels like the same thing. You end up with a ton of hard to read code (autogenerated bash, not exactly poetry) and that feels very inimical to safety.

jongjong
0 replies
19h41m

The devil is in the detail and nothing obscures details like complexity.

Same reason why I don't like TypeScript in its current form. It's not worth the extra complexity it brings.

humanrebar
0 replies
6h52m

Autotools need to go away, but most of the underlying use cases that cause build system complexity comes down to dependency management and detection. The utter lack of best practices for those workflows is the root cause of complexity. There is no way to have a mybuild.toml build config on the face of those challenges.

cyanydeez
0 replies
20h3m

Just the fact that you have multiple platforms suggests few people will fully understand the entire complex.

JonChesterfield
0 replies
20h34m

Right there with you. It's really tempting to blame this entire thing existing on m4 but that's the trauma talking.

xyst
22 replies
21h35m

Whoever hired these people to infiltrate this project spent a shit ton of hours building it in such a way to avoid detection this long. Fortunately, it was so complicated that they couldn't account for all of the factors.

This is why open source will always outperform closed source in terms of security. Sure it pointed a massive flaw in the supply chain. Sure it highlights how under appreciated the foundational elements of FOSS, leaving maintainers subject to manipulation.

But the same attack within a private company? Shit, probably wouldn't even need advanced obfuscation. With a large enough PR and looming deadlines, could easily sneak something like this with a minimal amount of effort into production systems. By the time company even realizes what happens, you are already flying off to a non-extradition country and selling the exfiltrated data on Tor (or dark web).

yongjik
10 replies
21h0m

I don't buy it. Most private companies would require a face-to-face meeting when you start. Even if you're fully remote, the expectation would be that at some point you would meet your coworkers at meetspace, most likely before you get to commit anything substantial. The ones that are worth penetrating will almost certainly require a background check.

And then, once you're in, you cannot just commit to your target project willy-nilly, as your manager and your manager's manager will have other priorities. A for-profit company's frequently dysfunctional management would actually work as deterrent here: you don't just need to justify your code, you will have to justify why you were working on it in the first place.

xyst
8 replies
19h31m

face to face, background checks. they are all superficial.

A smooth talker can get you to relax your guard.

Identity can be faked, especially if you have a nation state backing you.

breadwinner
6 replies
19h10m

Today no one knows what Jia Tan looks like. That means Jia Tan come back as Gary Smith and work on the next exploit. If we knew what he looked like, we could have at least prevented him from coming back.

not2b
5 replies
17h25m

Jia Tan might be more than one person.

breadwinner
4 replies
13h46m

Requiring him/her to show their face might have prevented that.

saagarjha
3 replies
9h15m

Why? Just have one person show up and everyone else funnel the work through their account.

kelseydh
1 replies
8h15m

On open source projects you can vet people based on whether you can personally identify them as real people. Moving forward be suspicious of anonymity for core contributions.

not2b
0 replies
2h28m

Debian does things that way, their developers have to get their key signed by other developers, and a DD who signs someone's key is supposed to check ID. But there's no similar protection for their upstream.

TeMPOraL
0 replies
5h47m

That's still one named person the police can go after, a good starting point for investigation into the criminal network.

Also, that's still one named person that no one would like to end up being, so that alone acts as a deterrent.

bigiain
0 replies
18h33m

How much would you bet against the NSA having a team full of leetcode and interview experts, who's job is to apply at tech companies and perform excellently through the hiring process, so that the offensive team at NSA can infiltrate and work remotely without ever needing to meet there new "coworkers"?

I suspect a "professional job seeker" with the resources of the NSA behind them and who lands 1st and subsequent interviews dozens of times a year - would be _way_ better at landing interviews and jumping through stupid recruiting hoops that even the best senior or "10x engineers", who probably only interview a dozen or two times in their entire career.

bsza
5 replies
21h7m

I’m gonna cry survivorship bias here. How do we know how many similar attempts succeeded? How many of the ones discovered have been written off as honest mistakes? How can we know for sure that e.g. Heartbleed wasn’t put there by someone on purpose (and that that someone isn’t filthy rich now)?

When you get hired to a private company, they know who you are. That’s an immediate deterrent against trying anything funny. On Github, no one knows who you are. It might be harder to backdoor a project without getting noticed, but there is no risk to getting noticed. You can try as many times as you like. Jia Tan is still at large, and didn’t even have to plan their whole life around living in a non-extraditing country (if they aren’t in one already).

xyst
4 replies
19h37m

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage (aka corporate espionage)

Happens all the time. Maybe it's a state actor. Maybe it's a disgruntled employee. It's just not in the same lens as you expect (software supply chain attack).

Apple has trouble keeping the lid on top secret projects. Leaks about designs happen all the time prior to scheduled debut at WWDC.

MS has had trouble in the past as well when it came to developing the Xbox (One?).

"Owners of China-Based Company Charged With Conspiracy to Send Trade Secrets Belonging to Leading U.S.-Based Electric Vehicle Company" - https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/owners-china-based-comp...

"Ex-Google engineer charged with stealing AI trade secrets while working with Chinese companies" - https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2024-03-07/ex-goo...

"The US Hits Huawei With New Charges of Trade Secret Theft" - https://www.wired.com/story/us-hits-huawei-new-charges-trade...

"U.S. charges China-controlled company in trade secrets theft" - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/u-s-charges-china-contr...

"Ex-Google and Uber engineer Anthony Levandowski charged with trade secret theft" - https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/27/20835368/google-uber-engi...

In the case of Levandowski, the dude didn't even bother with covering his tracks. Straight up just downloads trade secrets from source control and transfers them to personal computer - https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/press-release/file/1197991...

In this small sample of cases, were the exfiltration attempts as elaborate as the "xz attack"? Probably not, but all of these people were vetted by internal procedures and that did nothing to stop them from acting maliciously.

Forget back dooring the project when getting through the front door is so much easier! People are very relaxed in their walled off garden and cubicle :)

bsza
2 replies
13h0m

This kind of demonstrates my point. Every single one of these headlines indicates the bad actor has been "charged" (with serious consequences in the case of Huawei).

Has Jia Tan been "charged" with anything?

nindalf
1 replies
12h36m

I’m gonna cry survivorship bias here. How do we know how many similar attempts succeeded?

bsza
0 replies
4h35m

Right, we don’t know that, but we have yet to hear of one case where a supply chain attack on a FOSS project resulted in someone getting arrested.

resolutebat
0 replies
16h14m

Stealing trade secrets (read: copying source code) is a whole different ballgame from trying to inject backdoors into ubiquitous pieces of software.

skrtskrt
3 replies
21h10m

off topic, but how many actual non-extradition countries are there these days (for the US)?

Even countries we have strained relationships with will extradite as part of a negotiation when it's convenient for them politically.

Russia probably wouldn't have even kept Snowden if it wasn't state secrets he revealed. If it was just some random data breach they would have prisoner-swapped him for an oligarch caught money laundering elsewhere.

moopitydoop
0 replies
21h4m

Our adversaries aren't going to extradite their citizens to the west. And obviously if it's a state-level actor they aren't going to extradite their own actors.

As someone old enough to remember the tail end of the early hacker eras (e.g. Mitnick), I don't think anyone SHOULD be extradited over this, in particular if they're not being charged with actually using the exploit. Prosecute them where they live. Should they be prosecuted 193 times over in every state on Earth? What's the nexus? Github? Every server that installed the compromised xz utils?

But you are right they will deport (not extradite) foreigners who are inconvenient to them or when it is politically expedient to do so, if the foreigners are a nuisance, or as part of a political negotiation or prisoner exchange.

The whole "extradition treaties" meme is a misconception. You will only get extradited if you flee to a country where you are a citizen (even dual citizen), or the ability to assert citizenship/nationality there. A fugitive fleeing to a country without an extradition treaty is subject to deportation. Every country on earth reserves the right to deny entry to or deport foreign fugitives. They might choose not to if someone is found to be a refugee, subject to the death penalty in a non-death-penalty state, etc.

cesarb
0 replies
17h47m

off topic, but how many actual non-extradition countries are there these days (for the US)?

Several countries do not extradite their own citizens. For citizens of these countries, going back to their own home country would be enough.

EasyMark
0 replies
20h33m

Russia and China would never extradite for this, they would hire the people involved if they aren't already in their employ, and I wouldn't blame them. I'm not even sure if they could be charged with more than misdemeanor charges anyway.

EasyMark
0 replies
20h34m

Could be interesting as a class project to investigate other small relatively innocuous but near ubiquitous projects that could be treated the same way and investigate whether something similar could be done or has been done already. Just making a list of them would be useful if nothing else.

benlivengood
17 replies
1d1h

The only upside of finding this attack (aside from preventing it from being rolled out more widely) is that it gives a public example of a complex APT supply-chain attack. Rest assured there are more out there, and the patterns used will probably be repeated elsewhere and easier to spot.

Obfuscated autoconf changes, multi-stage deployment, binary blobs (hello lib/firmware and friends, various other encoders/decoders, boot logos, etc), repo ownership changes, new-ish prolific committers in understaffed dependency libraries, magic values introduced without explanation.

cassianoleal
6 replies
1d

a complex APT supply-chain attack

What do you mean by APT? If you mean Debian's package manager, that's not what this attack was. This was done upstream and affected non-apt distros just as much.

It's true that upstream is part of apt's supply chain but focussing on apt is misleading.

edit: why the downvotes? I get from the responses that I was wrong but given how the exploit was initially found in a Debian system and a lot of people very quickly jumped on the “Debian patched a thing and broke security” bandwagon, I don’t think it was much of a leap to wonder if that’s what was meant.

Acronyms and initialisms are not the best way to convey specific information.

supriyo-biswas
0 replies
1d

What do you mean by APT

Advanced, persistent threat.

nequo
0 replies
21h22m

Others have answered your question about APT but FWIW I don't understand the downvotes. You were respectful and simply sought to clear up a misunderstanding.

mttpgn
0 replies
1d

Not apt the package manager-- it's an acronym for Advanced Persistent Threat

macintux
0 replies
21h16m

I was heavily downvoted for supplying a link to a previous discussion on the same topic recently. I wouldn’t worry much about it.

danieldk
0 replies
1d

I think Advanced Persistent Threat.

MuffinFlavored
4 replies
23h51m

The changes to build-to-host.m4 weren't in the source repo, so there was no commit. > > The attacker had permissions to create GitHub releases, so they simply added it to the GitHub release tarball.

What are some simple tweaks the "Debians" of the world can do to mitigate this kind of stuff?

Not trust "hand-curated-by-possibly-malicious-maintainers" GitHub release tarballs, only trust git commits?

Whitelist functions that are allowed to do IFUNC/ELF hooking to core OpenSSH functions?

heeen2
2 replies
17h51m

remove test blobs before building

JonChesterfield
1 replies
13h46m

What's a test binary? Bunch of bytes on disk. What's a source file? Bunch of bytes on disk.

varjag
0 replies
9h24m

Good people and bad people are all made of atoms so there's no difference.

ilc
0 replies
18h29m

Read IOCCC entries.

Now realize, those are people having FUN. What is your chance of catching nation state level maliciousness in a codebase? Pretty low.

MarkSweep
3 replies
23h10m

Add to that list suppression of warnings from valgrind and address sanitizer without any justification. And no tracking issue to follow up on fixing the problem so the suppression can be removed.

Committing binary files to source control rather than including build commands to generate the files is a bit of a red flag.

saagarjha
2 replies
9h13m

They're test cases for a compression library. Seems pretty reasonable.

hyperhopper
1 replies
7h6m

Not at all. This would not pass a good code review. The test was for good stream, bad stream, good stream. The two good streams were only a few bites, why was the bad stream so large?

A good reviewer should have, even for a binary test case, asked the submitter to simplify it to the smallest or most basic binary required for the functionality.

saagarjha
0 replies
4h47m

idk picking a real-world example that breaks the code seems like a good test case to me

fsflover
0 replies
9h10m

hello lib/firmware

How could it play any role here? It doesn't bring any dependencies, does it?

_trampeltier
11 replies
20h4m

Jia Tan asked distros to update quickly just before it became public. How possible is it, there is another account / person who learned earlyer from people around Andreas Freund, the backdoor would become public. How possible is it, there is still another insider around?

strunz
4 replies
16h55m

That's probably because of this (as mentioned in the timeline):

2024-02-29: On GitHub, @teknoraver https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/31550 to stop linking liblzma into libsystemd. It appears that this would have defeated the attack. https://doublepulsar.com/inside-the-failed-attempt-to-backdo... that knowing this was on the way may have accelerated the attacker’s schedule. It is unclear whether any earlier discussions exist that would have tipped them off.
supriyo-biswas
3 replies
16h38m

rwmj did mention about an unintentional embargo break, so I wonder whether this is GitHub issue is actually it.

teknoraver
2 replies
7h22m

Hi,

I'm the author of such PR. My purpose was to trim down the size of the initram files by removing unneeded dependencies.

I couldn't imagine that liblzma had a backdoor.

rsc
1 replies
7h15m

Hi! Was there any discussion on any mailing lists ahead of time, or was your PR the first public mention of that idea? Thanks.

teknoraver
0 replies
6h48m

Yes, there was an effort to turn all the dependencies into on demand loads, where possible. It started in 2020 with libpcre2: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/16260

But many others followed, like libselinux: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/19997

libqrencode: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/16145

p11kit: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/25771

tpm2-util: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/28333

libiptc: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/29836

libkmod: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/31131

Exactly during the development of the libkmod PR, someone noted that libxz could be lazily loaded too: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/31131#issuecomment-1...

And so I proposed myself to to the job, nothing less, nothing more.

If you look at the code of the other PRs, you see that they are very very similar, there are also macros to easy this task, like DLSYM_FUNCTION()

OneLeggedCat
4 replies
19h43m

Right. Way too much coincidence. Jia Tan found out that it was about to become public and threw a Hail Mary. How did he find out?

rsc
2 replies
7h12m

I think the RedHat Valgrind report on 2024-03-04 made the Jia Tan team panic, since the one public rwmj stack trace pointed the finger directly at the backdoor. All it would take is someone looking closely at that failure to expose the whole operation. They fixed it on 2024-03-09, but then two weeks later distros still had not updated to the new version, and every day is another day that someone might hit the Valgrind failure and dig. I think that's why the sockpuppets came back on 2024-03-25 begging Debian to update. And then on the Debian thread there was pushback because they weren't the maintainer (except probably they were), so once Debian was updated, Jia Tan had to be the account that asked Ubuntu to update.

peteradio
1 replies
3h37m

That seems like a breach that they went forward with the update based on some random persons request. Oh you're getting pushy? I guess we better listen to this guy.

rsc
0 replies
2h26m

The update was pulling from trusted upstream archives. I'm sure Debian verified that.

freedomben
0 replies
19h37m

If the stakes weren't so high, this would be a damn fun game of murder mystery.

ptx
0 replies
19h39m

There were also changes to systemd happening around that time which would have prevented the backdoor from working. See the timeline article by the same author linked in this one.

ihsoy
1 replies
20h35m

That seems to be largely grasped at straws and connecting dots without reason.

For example oss-fuzz was building xz by cloning the github repo directly. There was never a chance for oss-fuzz to discover the backdoor, because only the tarball had it, not the repo itself. So that oss-fuzz PR might genuinely just be a genuine thing unrelated to the backdoor.

sp332
0 replies
19h36m

The ifunc part looked more legitimate, it was used to switch between optimized implementations of CRC. So that part was in the git repo. https://github.com/google/oss-fuzz/pull/10667

xomodo
0 replies
21h11m

Thx. Timeline shows attack begun by adding ignore entry in .gitignore file. That is hard to detect nowadays.

moopitydoop
0 replies
21h8m

This just gives a partial high-level look at how the exploit gets planted in liblzma, it doesn't cover how the exploit works or its contents at all.

cletus
14 replies
19h23m

My big takeaway is that modern build systems are fundamentally broken. Autotools, even Makefiles, are (or can be) incredibly obtuse, even unreadable. If I read this attack correctly, it relied on a payload in a test file (to obfuscate it). It shouldn't be possible to include test resources in a production build.

As an aside, C/C++'s header system with conditional inclusion is also fundamentally broken. Even templates are just text substitution with a thin veneer of typing.

I think about Google's build system, which is very much designed to avoid this kind of thing. The internal build tool is Blaze (Bazel is the open-source cousin). Many years ago, you could essentially write scripts in your BUILD files (called genrules) that were hugely problematic. There was no way to guarantee the output so they had to be constantly rebuilt. There was a long project to eliminate this kind of edge case.

Blaze (and Bazel) are built around declaring hermetic units to be built with explicit dependencies only. Nothing shipped to production is built locally. It's all built by the build servers (a system called Forge). These outputs are packaged into Midas packages ("MPMs"). You could absolutely reconstruct the source used to build a particular library, binary or package as well as the build toolchain and version used. And any build is completely deterministic and verifiable.

C/C++, Make, CMake, autotools, autoconf and all that tooling so common in Linux and its core dependencies absolutely needs to go.

ufmace
3 replies
15h2m

You're not wrong, but IMO that isn't the real problem. The real problem is the combination of highly popular core open-source utilities with near-zero maintenance resources.

This was all possible because XZ, despite being effectively everywhere, has one actual part-time maintainer who had other things going on in his life. That also means that there's nowhere near enough resources to redo the build system to some more secure alternative. If they had, say, 10 enthusiastic and skilled volunteer contributors with plenty of free time, they could do that, but then a new person appearing out of nowhere with a few helpful commits would never have a chance at being made an official maintainer or sneaking sketchy tools and code past the other maintainers.

Not that I'm blaming XZ or the real maintainer. Clearly whoever was behind this was looking for the weakest link, and if it wasn't XZ, it would have been something else. The real problem is the culture.

So I guess what this really means is someone at a big corporation making Linux distros should audit their full dependency tree. Any tool in that tree that isn't actively maintained, say at least 3 long-time active contributors, they should take over one way or another - whether that's hiring the current maintainer as a full-time remote employee, offering to buy out the rights, or forking and running under their own team.

I'm not necessarily super thrilled with that, but I guess it's the world we live in now.

peteradio
0 replies
3h29m

Why do utilities need constant fucking updates? Why do they need maintenance? New features are entirely optional and if what you want to do isn't supported aka xz java, uhh, get fucked or do it yourself.

pch00
0 replies
6h13m

So I guess what this really means is someone at a big corporation making Linux distros should audit their full dependency tree.

This is it precisely. When you're paying Redhat for an "enterprise" Linux then that guarantee should extend down their entire software stack. Just getting the odd backported patch and so-so email support no longer cuts it.

bhawks
0 replies
12h4m

The overworked solo maintainer is a problem.

However I've seen way too many projects where individuals in the 'team' are able to carve out impenetrable fiefdoms where they can operate with wide latitude.

I could see a Jia Tan being able to pull this off in a team context as well - bigger teams might even be weaker. (Everyone welcome Jia - he's going to write test cases and optimize our build process so everyone can focus on $LAUNCH_DAY)

__MatrixMan__
2 replies
18h47m

If I were starting something from scratch I'd do Bazel for internal deps, Nix for external ones. If that's a tall order, so be it: we train people. Investments in determinism usually end up paying off.

wocram
0 replies
18h24m

This sounds nice on paper, but there's a lot of missing glue to be written between nix and bazel.

Ideally nix would move towards less imperative/genrule style package declarations and ultimately become more usable for internal builds.

threePointFive
0 replies
18h28m

I'm not familiar with Bazel, but Nix in it's current form wouldn't have solved this attack. First of all, the standard mkDerivation function calls the same configure; make; make install process that made this attack possible. Nixpkgs regularly pulls in external resources (fetchUrl and friends) that are equally vulnerable to a poisoned release tarball. Checkout the comment on the current xz entry in nixpkgs https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/master/pkgs/tools/comp...

sanderjd
1 replies
18h33m

modern build systems > Autotools, even Makefiles > C/C++'s header system with conditional inclusion

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say something like "older build systems"? I don't think any of the things you listed are "modern". Which isn't a criticism of their legacy! They have been very useful for a long time, and that's to be applauded. But they have huge problems, which is a big part of why newer systems have been created.

FWIW, I have been using pants[0] (v2) for a little under a year. We chose it after also evaluating it and bazel (but not nix, for better or worse). I think it's really really great! Also painful in some ways (as is inevitably the case with any software). And of course it's nearly impossible to entirely stomp out "genrules" use cases. But it's much easier to get much closer to true hermeticity, and I'm a big fan of that.

0: https://www.pantsbuild.org/

ants_everywhere
1 replies
18h21m

The internal build tool is Blaze (Bazel is the open-source cousin).

I was under the impression that Blaze is Google's Bazel deployment, i.e. that they're the same code. Is that not correct?

xen0
0 replies
17h42m

Mostly correct; there's some code that's Blaze only and some that's Bazel only, but the core is the same.

peteradio
0 replies
3h30m

Google gets to decide what platform they want to support for their backend. I wonder what their build code would look like if they tried to support the top-10 common OS from the last 30 years.

dhx
0 replies
16h34m

Ugly and broken build systems are most of the reason why Gentoo's 'sandbox' feature and equivalent for other distributions exists.[1] These sandboxing features have mostly been used in the past to prevent an ugly shell script in the build process for libuselesscruft from doing something similar to "rm -rf" on the build system. More recently these sandboxing features are helpful in encouraging reproducible builds by alerting maintainers to build processes which try and obtain non-deterministic information from the operating system environment such as the operating system name and version, host name and current time stamp.

There are a few gaps I think xz-utils highlights:

- Repositories containing a mixture of source code, build scripts, test frameworks, static resources and documentation generation scripts are all considered to be a single security domain with no isolation between them. If you look to Gentoo's src_prepare function as an example, we perhaps should instead split this into build_src_prepare, doc_src_prepare, test_src_prepare and install_src_prepare instead. If source code is being built and binaries generated, the sandboxed build directory should perhaps not contain test files and documentation generation scripts. If the package is being installed with "make install" (or equivalent) then static resources (such as a timezone database) should be available to copy to /usr/, but build scripts used to generate the binaries or documentation do not need to be available to "make install" (or equivalent).

- Sandboxing used for package building hasn't traditionally been implemented for security reasons in the past. Sandboxing should perhaps be hardened further with modern and more complex approaches such as seccomp to further protect build systems from the likes of libbackdoored that are targeted towards package maintainers/Linux distribution build systems. As a further example to seccomp, Gentoo's 'sandbox' has Linux namespace isolation built in, but not yet enabled whilst it is tested.

- There is a lack of automated package management tools (including dashboards / automatic bug creation) for comparing source trees in Git to released tarballs and making discrepancies more visible and easier for maintainers to review.

- There is a lack of automatic package management tools (including dashboards / automatic bug creation) for detecting binary and high entropy files in source trees and confirming they are validly formatted (e.g. invalid tag in a TLV file format) and confirming that test and example files contain nothing-up-my-sleeve content.

There has already been an accelerated move in recent years towards modern and safer build systems (such as meson and cargo) as 80's/90's C libraries get ripped out and replaced with modern Rust libraries, or other safer options. This is a lot of work that will take many years though, and many old 80's/90's C libraries and build systems will be needed for many more years to come. And for this reason, sandboxing/isolation/safety of old build systems seemingly needs to be improved as a priority, noting that old build systems will take years or decades to replace.

[1] https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/sandbox/index....

[2] https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/functions/src_pr...

anthk
0 replies
4h50m

Makefiles are not a Linux thing, but Unix.

And if you confuse C with C++ and Make with CMake/Autotools/Autoconf, you have a lot to learn. Look: simple and portable makefiles work:

git://bitreich.org/english_knight

sanxiyn
13 replies
1d

The first difference is that the script makes sure (very sure!) to exit if not being run on Linux.

The repeated check is indeed mysterious. My only hypothesis is that the attacker may have thought that it should look plausible as a test input to a compression library, hence repetition.

TheBlight
7 replies
1d

Is it though? The attacker probably has Linux x86 target(s) in mind and IFUNC support isn't guaranteed to work with other platforms.

sanxiyn
4 replies
1d

Checking for Linux makes sense. Doing the exact same check for Linux five times in a row is mysterious.

tamimio
2 replies
22h45m

It would be an interesting plot twist if the whole thing was an AI hallucination.

neffy
0 replies
22h23m

...or a stalking horse by somebody in Microsoft's marketing division.

ddalex
0 replies
20h1m

How about an AI trying to make itself some spare CPU cycles available ?

dboreham
0 replies
12h56m

Perhaps expected a very fast machine that might blast straight through the first few checks. Like how you needed two STOP statements in a Cray Fortran program in case it blew through the first one at 80MIPS.

ycombinatrix
1 replies
15h51m

why doesn't IFUNC work on Linux ARM64?

bodyfour
0 replies
3h32m

IFUNC is supported on several architectures, including ARM64.

The malicious code that the xz backdoor inserts into the library is a compiled x86_64 object file so it only is targeting one platform.

Hakkin
1 replies
3h39m

I also thought it was odd. There's also different random bytes (not random text, actual random bytes) prefixed to the start the scripts, but the bytes are prefixed by a hash symbol, which comments them out, so they don't affect the script. It seems intentional, but I can't think of why they would be there. I thought maybe xz would skip compression if the input was short/not complex enough or something, so they were added to pad the size, but removing them and re-compressing with xz seems to properly compress it, none of the original plaintext is in the compressed archive bytes.

One thing I noticed while trying to reproduce the exact bytes included in the .xz file committed to git is that the script's xz stream doesn't seem to be compressed by any of the default xz presets, I was only able to reproduce it by using `xz --lzma2=dict=65536 -c stream_2`. All the default numbered presents chose a different dictionary size. Another odd seemingly intentional choice, but again I don't understand the reasoning.

Hakkin
0 replies
3h29m

Ah, I think I understand the random bytes at the start of the script now. They're prepended to make the partial output of the "corrupted" (pre-tr'd) test stream look like random data. Without those random bytes, you will see part of the start of the script if you observe the partially decompressed output before xz throws an error. They really thought quite carefully about hiding this well.

Still not sure about the repeated lines, though now I'm convinced there must be some reason for it.

mercurialuser
0 replies
23h56m

It can be to make space for script changes: you may overwrite the first bytes of the script.

Or just add some laziness.

m3kw9
0 replies
4h40m

Maybe if run on non Linux it could be found out either by crashing or leaving some trace because of OS differences

fsniper
0 replies
19h10m

Can it be to enlarge/or obfuscate parts of the compressed test file? Perhaps without the repetitions the compressed file has some strange binary triggering some security or antivirus software?

kelseydh
9 replies
8h55m

The lesson I take away from this incident is that we probably shouldn't be allowing anonymity for core contributers in critical open source projects. This attack worked and the attacker will likely get away with it free of consequence, because they were anonymous.

ulrikrasmussen
2 replies
8h39m

No thanks.

That's not going to help, and will be fairly easy to circumvent for nation state actors or similar advanced persistent threats who will not have a problem adding an extra step of identity theft to their attack chain, or simply use an agent who can be protected if the backdoor is ever discovered.

On the other hand, the technical hoops required for something like that will likely cause a lot of damage to the whole open source community.

The solution here is learn from this attack and change practices to make a similar one more difficult to pull off:

1. Never allow files in release tar-balls which are not present in the repo.

2. As a consequence, all generated code should be checked in. Build scripts should re-generate all derived code and fail if the checked in code deviates from the generated.

3. No inscrutable data should be accessible by the release build process. This means that tests relying on binary data should be built completely separately from the release binaries.

peteradio
0 replies
3h34m

Stop trying to support such a variety of images too? Maybe?

lenerdenator
0 replies
2h58m

It's easy to steal or craft an identity. Having a person adopt that identity and use it over multiple in-person meetings around the world over an extended period of time is not.

Part of the appeal of cyber operations for intelligence agencies is that there's basically no tradecraft involved. You park some hacker in front of a laptop within your territory (which also happens to have a constitution forbidding the extradition of citizens) and the hacker strikes at targets through obfuscated digital vectors of attack. They never go in public, they never get a photo taken of them, they never get trailed by counterintelligence.

If you start telling people who want to be FLOSS repo maintainers that they'll need to be at a few in-person meetings over a span of two or three years if they want the keys to the project, that hacker has a much harder job, because in-person social engineering is hard. It has to be the same person showing up, time after time, and that person has to be able to talk the language of someone intimately familiar with the technology while being someone they're not.

It's not a cure-all but for supply chain attacks, it makes the operation a lot riskier, resource-intense, and time-consuming.

tgv
0 replies
8h37m

It might prevent attacks under different aliases, but a determined organization will be able to create a verified account, if only because nobody, certainly noy github, has the will and means to verify each account themselves.

rsc
0 replies
7h9m

Two problems with this:

1. Many important contributors, especially in security, prefer to be pseudonymous for good reasons. Insisting on identity drives them away.

2. If a spy agency was behind this, as many people have speculated, those can all manufacture "real" identities anyway.

So you'd be excluding helpful people and not excluding the attackers.

hk__2
0 replies
8h51m

The lesson I take away from this incident is that we probably shouldn't be allowing anonymity for core contributers in critical open source projects. This attack worked and the attacker will likely get away with it free of consequence, because they were anonymous.

This would be impossible to enforce, and might not be a good idea because it enables other ranges of attacks: if you know the identities of the maintainers of critical open source projects, it’s easier to put pressure on them.

damsalor
0 replies
8h47m

The attack almost worked because of too few eyes

akdev1l
0 replies
3h30m

If this was a state-actor (which it definitely looks like it) then what validation are you going to do? They can probably manufacture legitimate papers for anything.

Driver’s license, SSN, national ID, passport, etc. If the government is in on it then there’s no limits.

The only way would be to require physical presence in a trusted location. (Hopefully in a jurisdiction that doesn’t belong to the attacker…)

Jonnax
0 replies
8h42m

Who designates it as critical?

If someone makes a library and other people start using it, are they forced to reveal their identity?

Do the maintainers get paid?

mittermayr
4 replies
9h21m

As a developer, this amazes me, and it just shows what — to me — feels like a top-tier attack method, is probably only entry-to-mid level complexity for the folks working at that stage. Some of the things I see posted here on HN are well above this level, so I'd assume for the right kind of money (or other incentives), this is only the beginning of what's possible. And, if you think of ALL the packages and ALL the many millions of libraries on GitHub, this vector is SO EFFECTIVE, there will be hundreds of cases like it uncovered in the next few months, I am certain of it.

I worry about all the con/pro-sumer hardware makers, from Philips Hue to Alexas, from the SumUps to the camera makers, from Netgear to TP-Link. All their products are packed with open-source libraries. And I am 100% certain that most of their dev teams do not spend time scanning these for obscure injection vectors.

jimkoen
1 replies
6h25m

And I am 100% certain that most of their dev teams do not spend time scanning these for obscure injection vectors.

This rationale baffles me, it feels that the dependency-hell circlejerk crowd is working on making OSS maintainers look even more bad with this scenario.

Any given commercial operation that claims any credibility for itself does supply chain analysis before adopting a dependency. This is, among other things why ordinarily you'd pay RedHat to maintain a stable Linux Release for you and why projects such as FreeBSD severely limit the software they ship in the default install.

If you are affected by this mess, I'm sorry to say, but it's your fault. If you are worried about developers of software you use for free, as in free beer, going rogue, either put in incentives for them to not do that (i.e. pay them) or fork the project and implement your own security measures on top of what's already there.

If you're worried that you could encounter exploits from dependencies in commercial software you use, you should negotiate a contract that includes compensation from damages from supply chain attacks.

If you're unwilling to do that, sorry mate, you're just unprofessional.

Inb4: Yes, I am really trying to say that you should check the supply chain of even your most basic dependencies such as SSH.

finaard
0 replies
2h20m

Unfortunately that's "industry standard" nowadays. I lost count how often I had that discussion over the last two decades.

Just look at stuff like pip, npm or pretty much any "modern" package manager in use by developers - they're all pretty much designed to pull in a shitload of arbitrary unaudited and in some causes unauditable dependencies.

And nobody wants to listen. That's why I prefer to work in heavily regulated areas nowadays - that way I can shorten that discussion with "yeah, but regulatory requirements don't let us do that, sorry"

The absolute basic should be having a local archive of dependencies which at least received a basic sanity check, and updates or additions to that should review changes being added. CI gets access to that cache, but by itself does not have network access to make sure no random crap gets pulled into the build. You'd be surprised how many popular build systems can't do that at all, or only with a lot of workarounds.

bipson
0 replies
3h24m

That's why I don't see e.g. TP-Link basing their router firmware on OpenWRT as a win, and why I want the "vanilla" upstream project (or something that tracks upstream by design) running on my devices.

Applies to all of my devices btw. I don't like Android having to use an old kernel, I didn't like MacOS running some ancient Darwin/BSD thing, etc. The required effort for backporting worries me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying OSS has no vulns.

0xdeadbeefbabe
0 replies
3h5m

there will be hundreds of cases like it uncovered in the next few months, I am certain of it.

"Given the activity over several weeks, the committer is either directly involved or there was some quite severe compromise of their system. Unfortunately the latter looks like the less likely explanation, given they communicated on various lists about the "fixes" mentioned above." (https://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2024/03/29/4)

So, it's like story of those security researchers injecting bugs into the kernel https://thehackernews.com/2021/04/minnesota-university-apolo...

I'm saying this isn't that easy to pull off, and it's unlikely we'll see hundreds of similar cases.

klabb3
4 replies
3h6m

As a naive bystander, the thing that stands out most to me:

Many of the files have been created by hand with a hex editor, thus there is no better "source code" than the files themselves.” This is a fact of life for parsing libraries like liblzma. The attacker looked like they were just adding a few new test files.

Yes, these files are scary, but I can see the reason. But at least can we keep them away from the build?

Usually, the configure script and its support libraries are only added to the tarball distributions, not the source repository. The xz distribution works this way too.

Obligatory auto tools wtf aside, why on earth should the tarballs contain the test files at all? I mean, a malicious test could infect a developer machine, but if the tars are for building final artifacts for everyone else, then shouldn’t the policy be to only include what’s necessary? Especially if the test files are unauditable blobs.

finaard
2 replies
2h32m

It's pretty common to run tests on CI after building to verify your particular setup doesn't break stuff.

Last time we were doing that we were preferring git upstream, though, and generated autocrap as needed - I never liked the idea of release tarballs containing stuff not in git.

klabb3
1 replies
33m

This strengthens the argument I’m making, no? You bring in the source repo when doing development and debugging. In either case - tarball or not - it doesn’t seem that difficult to nuke the test dir before building a release for distribution. Again, only really necessary if you have opaque blobs where fishy things can hide.

lathiat
0 replies
20m

The distributions often run the same tests after it’s built to make sure it’s working correctly as built in the distribution environment. This can and does find real problems.

wiml
0 replies
2h41m

Because, despite containing some amount of generated autoconf code, they are still source tarballs. You want to be able to run the tests after compiling the code on the destination machine.

xurukefi
2 replies
3h21m

Since I'm a bit late to the party and feeling somewhat overwhelmed by the multitude of articles floating around, I wonder: Has there been any detailed analysis of the actual injected object file? Thus far, I haven't come across any, which strikes me as rather peculiar given that it's been a few days.

lenerdenator
0 replies
3h7m

I agree, I haven't seen anything about decompiling the object file.

If I had a project to develop a backdoor to keep persistent access to whatever machine I wanted, it would make sense that I would have a plug-in executable that I would use for multiple backdoors. That's just decent engineering.

zadwang
1 replies
19h4m

The set of unix utilities have been tested a long time. I just wish the kernel and key utilities keeps fixed and not changed. Unless absolutely necessary. Don’t fix it if it ain’t broken. The software empire seems out of control.

JonChesterfield
0 replies
13h52m

It is all broken. The quick hack to make things kind of work today, compounded across fifty years and a million developers.

There are occasional shining lights of stuff done right but I think it's fair to say they're comprehensively outcompeted.

Solvency
1 replies
18h14m

It's kind of tragically amusing how heinously complex and unnecessarily inscrutable modern technology is, and it's only getting worse. I think developers sadistically enjoy it.

Trufa
0 replies
3h37m

This is probably the worst take ever.

It's pretty amazing how the tools keep up with the increasing complexity of the products we make.

And to be honest, in most cases just make it simpler, I think people just don't like to learn new stuff.

PHGamer
1 replies
1h16m

if anyone has worked in any development. (closed or open) you know half the time developers are lazy and just approve PRs. Linus Torvalds is like the glimming exception where he will call out shit all day long.

dijit
0 replies
1h4m

Second this.

And in the event someone is pedantic enough to actually care: that person will be considered a pariah that all development stifles due to.

Tensions with the team for nitpicking etc;

FD: I have a situation like this now, I am not the one being picky- one of the developers I hired is. I had to move him out of the team because unfortunately his nitpicky behaviour was not well regarded. (he also comes from eastern europe and has a very matter-of-fact way of giving feedback too which does not aid things).

say_it_as_it_is
0 replies
8h33m

Imagine paying for a security scanning service such as Snyk and finding that it never scanned source code for injection attacks. How many millions of dollars went down the drain?

k3vinw
0 replies
34m

Ha. This backdoor belongs in the same museum as automake!

jcarrano
0 replies
42m

What's the advantage of IFUNCS, over putting a function in the library that selects the implementation, either via function pointers or a switch/if? In particular given that they seem to be quite fragile and exploitable too.

I don't have much experience in low-level optimization, but would a modern CPU not be able to predict the path taken by a brach that tests the CPU features.

LunicLynx
0 replies
2h52m

Imagine this inside GitHub copilot, just because it has seen it enough times.