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Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

taejavu
72 replies
3d13h

From the article:

"Backing up this hypothesis is the fact that humans have relatively smaller large intestines than other primates. This indicates that our ancestors were eating food that was already partly broken down by fermentation."

IIRC another interpretation of the smaller large intestine is that early humans were eating more bioavailable food (i.e. meat) than other primates, which doesn't need to be broken down as much as more fibrous material (seeds, leaves, stalks etc). Can someone more knowledgable than me confirm or deny?

depressedpanda
42 replies
3d10h

Yes, meat being the driver is the more common (and simpler) explanation for our smaller intestines and larger brains. I guess plantbasednews.org just accidentally left this alternative explanation out.

That said, fermented foods could very well have played a part in it.

giantg2
13 replies
3d7h

I'm curious, but knowing how to safely ferment foods would seem indicate that one has an advanced brain. Are there any examples of other primates fermenting thier food (lacto, not alcohol - alcohol shrinks brains)?

LeonB
11 replies
3d7h

Nature causes various food sources to ferment which is exploited by many animals.

giantg2
8 replies
3d7h

Like what? Usually lacto fermenting requires a specific salt level. I know fruit tends to ferment, but that produces alcohol, which is a negative factor for brains.

wil421
3 replies
3d6h

Lacto only requires a specific salt level to keep the bad bacteria out. I doubt caveman humans cared much about sanitary conditions. Also, I doubt the vessels they used would be air tight (except to expel gases) like the ones I use.

Modern humans have genes to process alcohol and some populations don’t have the gene (Asian flushing). Alcohol and fermented fruit were probably sources of calories and drinkable water for many populations.

giantg2
1 replies
2d21h

"Alcohol and fermented fruit were probably sources of calories and drinkable water for many populations."

I'm questioning how this could have preceeded the formation of advanced brains at a level to contribute to the formation of advanced brains.

vanattab
0 replies
1d21h

I bet they did care a great deal about food poisoning. A few days of vomiting and fever could be a death sentence.

FrustratedMonky
2 replies
2d21h

human pathogens can't live in alcohol. so a low alcohol liquid would be sterile and healthy for humans.

brain health isn't the big factor, it is outweighed by the not heaving out your guts by food poisoning.

giantg2
1 replies
2d21h

"human pathogens can't live in alcohol. so a low alcohol liquid would be sterile and healthy for humans."

This isn't true at all. Beer can go bad and give you food poisoning.

FrustratedMonky
0 replies
2d6h

Bad Taste, not kill you.

There are a ton of other studies exploring how beer/wine fermentation for alcohol also contributed to early human growth. Precisely because of this property.

LeonB
0 replies
2d6h

a negative factor for brains

try telling that to the parrots in the trees, they're a social animal and seem happy enough.

andsoitis
0 replies
3d5h

Nature causes various food sources to ferment which is exploited by many animals.

I did some searching and cannot find any evidence to support that.

Only the contrary, for instance: Some non-human animals are documented to consume fermented foods, but it appears to be somewhat infrequent, and limited to a narrow range of foods. from https://fermentology.pubpub.org/pub/2h9z1g3y

The article continues:

As a part of this unique relationship that humans have with fermented foods, it's perhaps not surprising to learn that humans have some adaptations associated with the consumption of fermented foods. Now, these technically aren't unique to humans. These are adaptations that are shared with African apes as well. In particular, there's two genes that we know about that signal this kind of special relationship with fermented foods among the great apes.

The first is the ADH4 gene. We have a special variant of this gene. It's an alcohol dehydrogenase gene. It basically lets us break down alcohol more effectively than many other primates. Alcohol is a byproduct of many types of fermentation. There are three major types of fermentation, two of which produce ethanol as a byproduct. Therefore, being able to break down ethanol provides us with an advantage in terms of being able to consume fermented foods.

The other gene is the HCAR3 gene. This gene codes for a receptor that's thought to make humans and great apes more sensitive to signals that come from certain types of microbes, particularly Lactobacillus. Lactobacillus are one of the key groups of microbes that are involved in food fermentations. Together, these two genes suggest that there's a kind of unique relationship between African apes and humans, and fermented foods.

HeyLaughingBoy
0 replies
3d

Don't know why you were downvoted. We used to have a horse that would wait until the fallen apples were fermented, and then eat them to get drunk.

At least, that's the human explanation. It's more likely that she just preferred the taste of fermented apples and getting drunk was just a pleasant side effect.

h0l0cube
0 replies
3d6h

The study speculates that accidental fermentation by stashing food in the same location is how such foods were introduced into the human diet

morgengold
8 replies
3d7h

Actually the big evolutionary advantage of humans is that they can thrive on a wide range different diets. Unlike other animals we can almost eat everything.

tomp
4 replies
3d6h

There's large parts of the food world that are completely inaccessible to humans.

Most plant material (i.e. "fiber", digestible by e.g. cows), carion, most raw meat (if we ate what dogs ate, we'd have constant stomach issues...)

improv
3 replies
2d18h

carion, most raw meat (if we ate what dogs ate, we'd have constant stomach issues...)

Humans have extremely acidic stomach acid (1.5 - 3.5 pH), close to that of vultures and dogs (1 - 2 pH).

Early humans and their predecessors, were very likely (at least partially) carrion feeders, and consumed raw meat for millions of years before they started cooking.

dotancohen
2 replies
2d8h

Fresh raw meat, yes. Not carrion.

improv
1 replies
2d

Yes, early humans were likely carrion feeders among other dietary strategies. Archaeological and anthropological evidence suggests that before developing tools and techniques for hunting, early hominins would have scavenged carcasses left by predators. This behavior would have allowed them to access a high-quality source of nutrients like protein and fat, which are crucial for brain development.

The use of tools made from stones to break open bones for marrow and to possibly butcher animals suggests that early humans exploited carcasses that they found or scavenged from other predators' kills. Marrow and brain tissue, which could be accessed by breaking open bones and skulls, are highly nutritious and would have been valuable food sources for early humans.

Over time, as hominins developed more sophisticated tools and techniques, they likely became more efficient hunters, gradually shifting from scavenging to actively hunting for their food. However, the practice of scavenging would have played a critical role in the dietary habits of early human ancestors and contributed to their evolutionary success.

https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/64/5/394/2754213

dotancohen
0 replies
1d19h

Thank you.

GuB-42
2 replies
3d6h

We are not the only omnivores, but I think it is an underappreciated trait of humans.

I believe that a lot is written about what is a healthy diet, but in reality, as long as there is no obvious excess or deficiency, and you don't have a specific disease, then any diet can be healthy. Vegan, carnivore, paleo, keto, kosher, whatever... even junk food. The human digestive system is very good at working with anything you throw at it.

The only thing is the less varied the diet, the more you need to care about potential deficiencies. Usually, there is a way, but unlike with a varied diet where you can rely on random sampling, you may need to be more explicit.

The psychological side is quite a bit more complex though. While a healthy diet is almost always possible from the point of view of our guts, we may not want to, because our natural incentives may not align with what modern society offers. What used to be rare is now abundant and easily accessible.

hhshhhhjjjd
0 replies
3d4h

"healthy" in that "you won't die" -- not necessarily "healthy" as in "ideal for maintaining peak health". That's probably a bad comparison... But I'm not sure that you can count out the importance of the intestinal microbiome. It's not just vitamins or metals--one can be deficient in beneficial bacteria as well. These bacteria are why we can "throw anything" at our intestines. That's true until the good bacteria have nothing left to sustain them and die off.

blitzar
0 replies
3d5h

I believe that a lot is written about what is a healthy diet, but in reality, as long as there is no obvious excess or deficiency, and you don't have a specific disease, then any diet can be healthy.

Except the SAD standard american diet.

bsima
6 replies
3d6h

It could be both: Fermented meat from scavenging. Sounds gross but actually many cultures still have fermented meat products in their cuisine

m0llusk
1 replies
3d6h

There is an interesting series of scenes in the book Shogun where the main character gets some meat and wants to prepare it in the traditional manner by curing it. He hangs the meat outside but people are so disgusted by the stench that they steal it and dispose of it before he can eat it.

floren
0 replies
3d2h

Natto... funazushi... surely the Japanese should have appreciated stanky food just as much as a European.

greggsy
1 replies
3d6h

It’s not outside the realms of possibility that the invention of fermented meats (which includes salami and other similar sausages) arose when humans decided to eat the intestines of hunted beasts, possibly well after they ate the more desirable portions.

vanattab
0 replies
1d21h

Cultures have different definitions of what is the desirable portions. In some native american tribes the most desired cut of the bison was the raw liver with the contents of the gallbladder squirted on top.

automatic6131
1 replies
3d6h

Sounds gross but actually many cultures still have fermented meat products

Aged steak - a famous Western delicacy - is partially rotten meat.

greggsy
0 replies
3d6h

Salami, chorizo, pepperoni.. are all fermented meats

HuwFulcher
3 replies
3d7h

Plant based "news" is a misnomer unfortunately. They operate as an activist org rather than news. Nothing necessarily wrong with that but they can conveniently leave out facts that don't align with a plant based philosophy.

FrustratedMonky
2 replies
3d4h

Did they fund the study? It sounds like they were simply promoting, writing about it?

Here are authors, they don't seem affiliated with the OP's "Plant based news" article.

Can't really fault an organization from promoting a study that aligns with them.

Authors and Affiliations Laboratoire de Psychologie Cognitive, Aix-Marseille Université, Marseille, France

Katherine L. Bryant

Hungry Heart Farm and Dietary Consulting, Conley, GA, USA

Christi Hansen

Department of Human Evolutionary Biology, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA, USA

Erin E. Hecht

no_identd
1 replies
2d23h

The article found at the URL submitted by OP ( https://plantbasednews.org/news/science/fermented-foods-huma... ) seems like classic blogspam, i.e. regurgitation, of this Harvard Gazette article:

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2024/02/did-fermented...

IMHO HN staff should, as the often do in such cases, update the OP link to point to the Harvard Gazette article.

As for the questioned passage, it appears to originate from the author of the Harvard Gazette article, reading there:

"This hypothesis is supported by the fact that the human large intestine is proportionally smaller than those of other primates, suggesting that we adapted to food that was already broken down by the chemical process of fermentation."

Thankfully, the perspective study itself appears open access:

.https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-023-05517-3

And we can thus check it for addressing the meat consumption hypothesis, and indeed, we find:

"[…]

A smaller colon may reflect a reduction of dependence on fibrous plant material, given that a major function of the colon is to house bacteria that aid in the breakdown of enzyme-resistant carbohydrates to SCFAs. Did a shift to meat-eating, as suggested by Milton, permit this drastic reduction in colon size in the human lineage? Indeed, humans and members of the order Carnivora share a small colon size. However, the gut transit time in Carnivora is much faster than in humans. Although Milton postulates that this difference is due to our evolutionary history as plant eaters96, another explanation is that colon reduction follows from a reduced need to break down fibrous plant material within the digestive tract due increased bioavailability of nutrients before food is consumed—i.e., external fermentation (Fig. 1).

[…]"

As for the affiliations:

I can't find much on the obvious outlier among the author list, albeit I didn't check for very long, only an old interview here which appears partially misleading NOT due to content but due to what seem like incorrect social media references:

https://voyageatl.com/interview/meet-matthew-bagshaw-christi...

And an archive of their website:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190122012150/https://www.hungr...

The work breakdown given at the end of the paper in the contributions section looks like the following:

"K.L.B. and E.E.H. conceived the paper, K.L.B. and E.E.H. compiled data and analysis, K.L.B., E.E.H., and C.H. wrote the manuscript, with E.E.H. focusing on metabolic and nutrition components, E.E.H. on human evolution components, and K.L.B. on fermentation and culture components. All authors contributed to the final editing process."

Hope that clears things up for people arriving later to the comments section, and perhaps offers further avenues for exploration, albeit I'd advise caution as to avoid accidentally creating a tempest in a teapot

FrustratedMonky
0 replies
2d21h

At least for me, I was responding to those that wanted to call the study biased, or invalidate, or question the results, because the original post was 'classic blogspam'.

The study was in Nature, not 'plantbasednews'.

Just because a blog with a bias, like 'plantbasednews', reports on a study, doesn't invalidate the study.

The 'blog' is just cherry picking the studies that align with their bias.

0xEF
2 replies
3d9h

Likely more accurate.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks any surviving development in an organism is due to this "one weird trick" thing, as opposed to a multitude of factors that rendered that organism fit for their environment, at least enough to pass said development on, anyway. Meat, fermented foods, fire, and a slew of other variables likely played a role.

Talking about evolution as though there was some single exploding popcorn kernel that caused change is a pretty narrow take on things. Sites like the one in the link only serve to perpetuate such shallow thinking on the matter, and in this case, likely to push a narrative.

throwup238
1 replies
3d8h

> Talking about evolution as though there was some single exploding popcorn kernel that caused change is a pretty narrow take on things.

That’s kind of one of the predominant theories in evolution though: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium

> Eldredge and Gould proposed that the degree of gradualism commonly attributed to Charles Darwin is virtually nonexistent in the fossil record, and that stasis dominates the history of most fossil species.

The theory deals with the morphology of animals in the fossil record but that’s the gist of it: the actual evolution happens really fast, usually to adapt to a large environmental change, and species enter a stable state where they very slowly change if at all.

_0ffh
0 replies
3d5h

the actual evolution happens really fast

With the qualification, that they can be "fast" in geological time scales, which are rather big. It might look like rapid change in the fossil record, but that is a very compressed representation.

chii
1 replies
3d9h

But lots of animals also eat (uncooked) meat. It doesnt explain why the developmental difference occured in humans but not other animals eating a similar diet.

But cooked meat, on the other hand, can explain this difference.

_0ffh
0 replies
3d5h

But lots of animals also eat (uncooked) meat. It doesnt explain why the developmental difference occured in humans but not other animals eating a similar diet.

As to the gut: "The guts of carnivores are usually shorter and less complex than those of herbivores because meat is easier to digest than plant material."

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Anatomy_and_Physiology_of_Anim...

As to the brain: These foods may give an animal the option to invest more into brain size, but that won't happen unless there is a local gradient in the evolutionary fitness landscape that gives a higher roi for larger brains in comparison to alternative investments, like more muscle mass, or just being content with the lower power consumption relative to intake, which makes the animal more resistant to starvation risks, etc.

FrustratedMonky
1 replies
3d4h

Yes. Could be both.

The problem is the simpler, 'meat' based answer, leads people to say "Brains grew big because eating meat, I think I'm going to pull up to the table and down a few pounds of ribs and wash it down with a nice brisket".

HeyLaughingBoy
0 replies
3d

That's my excuse :-)

kossTKR
0 replies
3d4h

It's not just as simple as "probably just meat". Of course meat is important but i'd say in light of recent research fermentation and gut flora related concepts would be a better guess.

Cutting edge research into the Gut Biome shows its overlooked significance, connected to pre and probiotics and food, but also mental health, even going as far as questioning how much of "us" are really the gut biome.

People can heal various ailments even mental disease by getting transplants, it's a completely new and wild field of study, and holds much more weight than say eating or not eating meat.

wouldbecouldbe
15 replies
3d10h

Yeah not sure I understand the entire idea behind correctly.

To stick with other primates for now. Gorilla's have an obscene amount of muscles; adults need 8000 calories per day, compared to 2000-3000 calories for an adult human.

Somewhere, even though they eat low bioavailable food, even though they had to eat all day the heave muscle guys & girls had better chances of survival. Why do we think the brain's need are more special then a feature like muscles? Am I missing something here?

There is a decent amount of unfermented and uncooked food with lots of nutritional value a smarter brain can find, mainly meats (fatty parts especially) & nuts (if you are smart enough to open them), that would relatively on parr with the Gorilla way.

I'm sure as soon as tools, fire etc, became part of human culture it became even easier for those with more intelligence to became favorable. But that also needed to be in line with the development of more complicated social structures, either genetically or culturally.

berkes
11 replies
3d8h

Yes. But the parent commentor asked "why".

As in: why can a gorilla sustain it's immense needs to build muscles by eating a lot, but humans cannot do this to build a large brain?

To ask that question differently: why would humans need to change to meat/fermentation/cooking in order to grow brains, if they could "just" eat more, as other primates do?

Tor3
9 replies
3d8h

Humans (since Erectus) _can't_ eat more. We don't have a big enough ingestion system for that. Our guts are tiny compared to other great apes. We're completely unable to survive on what chimpanzees eat, not to mention gorillas. The fire/cooked food hypothesis (and now this speculative one about fermented food) is that it made it possible to greatly reduce the guts, as well as chewing muscles. More calories and better nutrients (both cooking and fermentation greatly improves the nutritional value of many foods), and less need of energy for guts is what's supposed to be the driver here (and seafood has also been mentioned as a possible source of important amino acids which is necessary for brain development)

wouldbecouldbe
2 replies
3d7h

but we can, you can perfectly fine live on raw meat (pork back fat) nuts etc. And Guts also shrank because they could. It sounds to me like this part mostly came after we learned to cook, then the body didn't need to waste energy on large complex guts. Hugely complicated brains such as Elephants & Whales do just fine on raw food diets.

Tor3
1 replies
3d7h

Erectus are about 2 million years old, and they already had "our" body shape.. i.e. small guts. The question has always been - did they already know how to cook? It's somewhat early for fire control. But it is one of the arguments for the idea that fire/cooking came much earlier than we have physical evidence for. This study/idea about fermented food is exactly about this - if there wasn't fire that early, could it have been fermentation?

wouldbecouldbe
0 replies
3d5h

Some of it makes sense.

The question why & when humans gut could start to shrink. It seems more the other way around in my view, brain development helped develop cooking & other preparation methods and in turn to the need for less complicated guts.

Anotheroneagain
2 replies
3d4h

What do you mean? They eat mostly fruit and vegetables.

Tor3
1 replies
3d3h

The top comment on this thread (https://www.quora.com/Could-a-human-being-survive-on-the-die...) matches what I've learned about this elsewhere. Just that "chewing for six hours a day" part is a problem..

As for gorillas - that's mostly leaves, shoots and stems. All very hard to digest, a human wouldn't get much nutrients out of that.

Anotheroneagain
0 replies
3d2h

Sycamore figs are 100% edible, I think it's the predominant species grown in more southern areas.

berkes
1 replies
3d7h

Humans (since Erectus) _can't_ eat more

Again, the question is not if they can (they can't) but WHY. Or, differently, what is the cause, and what the effect.

kjkjadksj
0 replies
3d2h

The cause is selective pressure and the effect is evolutionary change.

AlecSchueler
0 replies
3d8h

Sounds like "standing up" was the real pivotal moment.

spacecadet
0 replies
3d7h

Spoken like you expect an answer when this is just incremental understanding. This is not a video game where we discover some tech tree humans followed and can then replicate that in say apes. Maybe Im reading too much into this? by seems like a-lot of screaming for why.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK
1 replies
3d8h

More probably the idea behind is some dill preserves company donated for the research.

spacecadet
0 replies
3d7h

Ah yes big pickle mucking with research...

Ensorceled
4 replies
3d5h

IIRC another interpretation of the smaller large intestine is that early humans were eating more bioavailable food (i.e. meat) than other primates, which doesn't need to be broken down as much as more fibrous material (seeds, leaves, stalks etc). Can someone more knowledgable than me confirm or deny?

Yep, it's also why the Giant Panda needs to eat so much bamboo in a day, they also have a carnivore-like short gastrointestinal tract.

The idea that humans were fermenting via persistent food caches a million years before we discovered fire, and doing it consistently enough to affect brain evolution is, well, a stretch.

giraffe_lady
2 replies
3d3h

Why is that a stretch? At a warm room temp fermentation is quite noticeable after 18 hours in a lot of raw edible plants. As little as 6-8 for some of them. You don't need a cache, simply carrying leftovers with you for the next morning would be enough. It's not a big stretch that a resource you would have to go alarmingly out of your way to avoid (by destroying edible food after gorging) would come before fire.

This is related to what I've heard called the carrier bag theory. Once you can acquire food, the next technological step is being able to bring it with you. A gourd, a large folded leaf is sufficient. Once you're doing that fermentation is inevitable.

Ensorceled
1 replies
2d23h

Why is that a stretch?

Because you need to do it over generations, so consistently that it effects the species evolution, selecting for a developing brain you can't support without the fermentation.

Similar developments, such as lactose tolerance, required a society that had already domesticated lactating animals.

giraffe_lady
0 replies
2d22h

Yeah I get that, it still doesn't seem like a big leap to me. Fermentation is just the early curve of the spoilage processes. All you need to exploit it is continued access to food you acquired recently.

multjoy
0 replies
3d4h

Why?

zer00eyz
0 replies
3d12h

Were finding evidence of ... "milling for food dates back to the transitional period between Neanderthals and Homo sapiens."

From: https://nouvelles.umontreal.ca/en/article/2023/06/19/the-old...

I just don't buy that fermentation from random food piles is a driver for evolution...

xenonite
0 replies
3d8h

Josef H. Reichholf, a German evolutionary biologist, writes that the first grain cultivations were not as nutritious and productive as they are today. His thesis is that grains were first used in fermentation – not for food, but alcohol consumption, along with other drug substances like poppy, betel nut, coca and others. Then, storage of these (luxury) goods reduced mobility of hunters and gatherers, which led them to settle down (still eating mostly a hunter and gatherer diet).

His book "Warum die Menschen sesshaft wurden" is summarized in https://oe1.orf.at/artikel/213690/Warum-die-Menschen-sesshaf...

For a scientific journal reference, see "The role of cult and feasting in the emergence of Neolithic communities. New evidence from Göbekli Tepe, south-eastern Turkey", Antiquity (2012), https://doi.org/10.1017/S0003598X00047840

xenonite
0 replies
3d10h

Fermented meat would be a combination of both interpretations.. (sausages etc)

happytiger
0 replies
3d2h

It’s actually discussed in the paper.

Explanatory power compared to other hypotheses

The emergence of meat-eating, tuber-harvesting, and cooking have all been proposed to account for human brain expansion; why should our just-so story be given any additional credence? Below, we consider several explanatory advantages of the External Fermentation Hypothesis versus other current hypotheses.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-023-05517-3

goalieca
0 replies
3d6h

Cooked food, including meat, is hypothesized as the reason for a smaller digestive track. Of course, this needs fire.

ergonaught
0 replies
3d6h

Why not just read the actual study, to which the article links, and discuss that?

"One such proposed dietary change is increased meat eating, which has been argued to have been central to human evolution"

Behold the long comment train on a tangent unrelated to the study.

chewz
0 replies
3d8h

It seems that humans got Ruminococcus hominiciens (bacteria that is pivotal for brealing down celulosis) only after domesticating cows etc.

Our evolutionary analysis strongly suggests that R[uminococcus] hominiciens likely originated in the ruminant gut and later transferred to humans, possibly during domestication.

The human-associated strains possess functional adaptability highlighted by the acquisition of genes that can degrade specific plant fibers of monocots such as maize, rice, and wheat—major components of the human diet.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adj9223

arp242
0 replies
3d10h

The paper addresses that, the tl;dr is that there is no evidence for hunting from this time period and that scavenging wouldn't have provided enough meat to make a substantial difference.

It's of course entirely possible that both fermented foods and a meat diet were pivotal, just at very different time periods and in different contexts.

xkzx
28 replies
3d12h

I make fermented fizzy enzyme drinks at home all the time, no soft drinks anymore. It has to be all the time as it is a perpetual drink. You buy on of those fancy hipster live enzyme drinks, but you never finish it. Just and juice, sugar, jam - whatever what bacteria like and it continues fermentation. At room temperature. Every two days it is ready again, drink it, feed it. If it is too active, put it in a fridge. I try to spread it as people have forgotten this.

lavos83
17 replies
3d12h

In the Netherlands it's called water and kefir. Good stuff indeed, especially during summer and basically free at the cost tapwater. No plastic packaging either! Those hipster might actually be onto something ;)

hetspookjee
16 replies
3d11h

Kombucha is another one.

AYBABTME
14 replies
3d10h

I nearly poisoned myself making kombucha at home, despite careful sanitizing and careful monitoring of pH and temperature. As a result I'm really not fond of casual recommendations to brew kombucha. Seems easy to mess up.

RamblingCTO
5 replies
3d10h

Can you elaborate, what happened and how did you notice? I also do Kombucha weekly.

AYBABTME
4 replies
3d4h

By poisoned I mean food poisoning. Not sure what happened in the batch I made but drinking the brew gave me cold sweats and fever for two days and I emptied my bowels multiple times. So I stopped there. I still love the flavor, and I love most fermented food.

bongodongobob
2 replies
3d4h

I would bet money it was something else. Fermentation usually does a good job of keeping bad fungi out. If you were careful with sanitation, it was something else like bad leftovers or something. Also, food poisoning usually takes > 24-48 hours to kick in. So if you drank it and got sick that day, it was something you ate the day or two before.

ianburrell
0 replies
3d

"If you were careful with sanitation" is probably the important caveat. But have to keep in mind the potential danger when mess up making food. It is possible that kombucha is easier to mess up than most fermented food or cooking in general. I know beer making is very forgiving of sanitation, and isn't dangerous if mess up.

The speed of food poisoning can be hours for some pathogens. It depends on the pathogen and the amount, and if the body detects the bad food and expels it quickly.

AYBABTME
0 replies
3d4h

It was a while back so I can't retell exactly what my day had been but I remember it was unambiguous and it was definitely the kombucha.

RamblingCTO
0 replies
3d

Oh okay got it, thanks! I also get that quite a few times, but I'm certain it's more food-related, as on those days I didn't drink the booch. But now I know what to look out for, thanks!

dekken_
1 replies
3d10h

Counter anecdote for neutrality, I brew Kombucha and have done for a few years, worst I've done is make vinegar, YMMV

guappa
0 replies
3d8h

In 20 years a study will tell us how that increases the risk of cancer.

berkes
1 replies
3d8h

I ferment a lot, and know of only a few dangers: some rare fruits or veggies can produce toxins when fermenting, but non that I can easily buy in a European market. Spices and some herbs can be dangerous too, but the quantities needed for toxin levels that pose a danger, are insane.

Fungi are more dangerous. If something starts growing hair, it's out.

Dairy fermentation is more dangerous ¹, and quite hard, so I avoid that.

Alcohol is obviously a toxin too, and rather common in fermentation ;)

In nearly all cases, I'll trust one of the best fine tuned measurement devices to protect humans from toxins: my taste and nose.

(Q: how do you know the milk is beyond it's expiry date? A: Smell it! Far more reliable than a date printed on some package)

¹https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6356804/

Edit: another thing to be careful with, are kernels, pits, seeds and peels. Peels can often contain lots of sprayed on chemicals that will probably kill your fermenting bacteria. Pits and kernels can contain insane amounts of toxins that we usually won't eat because they are enclosed. But crushing/long fermenting might release them

throwup238
0 replies
3d7h

> Alcohol is obviously a toxin too, and rather common in fermentation ;)

Also watch out for methanol. Fruit pectin gets fermented into methanol so using pectase is recommended to break it down, especially if one ferments citrus juice.

ryzvonusef
0 replies
3d4h

America's Test Kitchen had a very recent video on Kombucha, and in one portion[1], after showing the viewers the recipe and tools they used, show us how they gave their colleagues the exact same setup but ended up with varied results.

If people whose day job IS testing food recipes, all end up with different results from the master recipe made by their colleague, then it indicates certain external factors need to be controlled to ensure consistency.

The factor they narrowed down to, was consistency of temperature, and the solution they offered was to suggest a temperature-controlled box to ensure best results.

[1]: https://youtu.be/_e9ejoiLNlo?t=558

lp4vn
0 replies
3d8h

Explain this story better, please.

depressedpanda
0 replies
3d10h

How were you poisoned? What happened to your kombucha?

When I make kombucha I am quite careless in the process, but it always turns out fine.

bongodongobob
0 replies
3d10h

Poisoned from what?

ametrau
0 replies
3d1h

Kombucha is a con.

kristiandupont
6 replies
3d11h

fizzy enzyme drinks

Do you mean kombucha? Kefir?

xkzx
3 replies
3d10h

No, I mean enzyme drink. They are called differently all over the place. They are similar to kombucha, just without all that disgusting shroom in a jar thing.

crubier
2 replies
3d7h

Wait until you learn where the enzymes come from

tomek_ycomb
1 replies
3d6h

No, kvass and other 'fizzy drinks' are not kombucha

They get their fermentation from the air, ferment much lower, and do not rely on the skoby to keep it all working. On some level there is similarities, but its not the same

crubier
0 replies
3d

It's still "shroom in a jar". Kvass is made with yeast, which are fungi.

ab71e5
1 replies
3d6h

One that's very easy to make is bread kvass : basically just toasted bread, sugar and some yeast, either sourdough starter or regular bread yeast. It kinda tastes like a weak wheat beer. I assume with some hops it would taste even more like beer.

HeyLaughingBoy
0 replies
2d23h

I love ginger and one easy one is ginger ale. Simply boiled ginger with sugar and after it cools add baker's yeast, bottle and let it ferment a few days. I started out using wine yeasts, but after it occurred to me that it was only going to ferment for 2-3 days (after that the yeast eats all the sugar and you lose a lot of the flavor) so I just started using whatever baking yeast I had on hand.

Deliciously alcoholic.

throwaway290
1 replies
3d11h

whatever what bacteria like

How do you know what it likes?

xkzx
0 replies
3d10h

Same thing as humans like, sugar.

imp0cat
0 replies
3d10h

Interesting! How can you tell it's too active? It gets bubbly?

DarkNova6
26 replies
3d6h

From the "about us" page:

Plant Based News is a mission-led impact media platform focused on elevating the plant-based diet and its benefit to human health, the planet, and animals.

And

The world’s leading scientists agree that time is running out in the fight to stop the climate crisis. Shifting away from an animal-based food system is one of the most impactful ways we can slow global warming. It’s also a critical move in preventing future pandemics and bringing equity to our global food system.

I'll take it with a grain of vegan salt.

alentred
10 replies
3d5h

I am not sure what do you mean to say. This looks very transparent and consistent. A company that has clear values and transparently states them in its "About Us" page, explaining what they believe in and why they exist. What is to take with a grain of salt?

Pucilowski
9 replies
3d5h

Disclosing your (potentially conflicting) interests does not automatically mean you've not been biased/incentivized to discover particular findings, pharmaceutical research is full of examples

FrustratedMonky
8 replies
3d4h

Of course, but if you have a specific interest, and then a study comes out that backs it up, you can write about it and promote it, can't you? Show everyone, look at this, we liked this idea, and now this study gives it more backing.

scottLobster
3 replies
3d4h

Sure you can, but the thing about ideologies is that they are almost always pseudo-religious philosophies, and those entities that make them their foremost identity typically seek out supporting facts while ignoring contravening facts. Expecting this behavior is reasonable, almost all ideologues engage in it to some degree. Thus additional skepticism/verification is warranted when the source is an ideologue and the purported argument contains facts that supposedly validate their ideology.

Even Trump says something correct about the border every once in a while, but you'd be a fool to take him at face value.

By contrast a more neutral source that lacked said motivation could be taken more at face value. By putting your agenda out in front, you're implying that you prioritize that agenda over everything else, including most likely the actual truth, because agendas become less and less politically attractive the more nuance they try to convey.

FrustratedMonky
2 replies
3d2h

It was an article in 'plantbasednews', about a totally separately funded study that had a positive result for 'plants'.

This is a site to report 'plant based news', reporting on a study about 'plants'.

The site does not label itself as : "Completely un-biased news site weighing the thousands of studies dealing with all food types and providing equal 50-50 coverage of both plants and meat studies so people on the internet don't cry about bias".

hilux
1 replies
2d12h

When "plant-based" is used as a euphemism for "vegan," I find that annoying and borderline dishonest.

We all eat plants. Even lots of plants. But most of us are not vegan.

So if these people are vegan and pushing a vegan agenda ... I wish they'd make it more clear than "plant based."

Incidentally, kimchi is easy to make, delicious, and healthy. AND most kimchi recipes are not vegan - they include one or two fishy ingredients.

FrustratedMonky
0 replies
2d6h

Totally separate. I do think as opposing arguments get more extreme, it skews each side. Then someone in the middle can look extreme.

There is just as strong an ideology and religious fervor around 'carnivore', and 'keto' communities.

Then when someone suggests eating some plants, they yell 'vegan'. And the more someone in the middle tries to argue 'no, really, you need some fiber', the more they yell back 'your vegan'.

If the person in the middle starts arguing back, and siting studies, the extreme side starts viewing them as extreme, even if they are in the middle.

Think the effect is called Overton Window.

I would hope no vegan would argue against Kimchi. Kimchi is great.

dog_boxer72
3 replies
3d4h

If the study had said eating meat was essential for our pre-historic development they probably just wouldn’t publish it. Impartiality is hard.

FrustratedMonky
2 replies
3d2h

Sure. But there are plenty of "Carnivore", or "Keto" sites that do not publish studies showing the benefits of fiber or vegetables. It goes both ways, the plant people aren't more biased.

If a study comes out saying meat is great, "keto" sites promote it.

If a study comes out saying plants are great, "plant" sites promote it.

I don't think a site called 'plantbasednews' is hiding their bias.

dog_boxer72
1 replies
2d23h

Yes that’s why I would prefer studies done by some history department which at least theoretically is only biased towards finding out the truth

FrustratedMonky
0 replies
2d21h

I think the point is, that the study itself was fine, you can't discount it because you don't like the sites that report on it. The site that is 'biased' is reporting on a study that backs up what they want to promote, but that doesn't invalidate the underlying study. They didn't fund this study, and put pressure on skewing the results, they are just writing an article about it.

neuronic
9 replies
3d5h

What are you calling them out for? A bias against torture and violent industrialized murder of sentient life?

sph
5 replies
3d5h

There is more to eating meat than supporting industrial "murder". And to be frank, industrial agriculture ain't much better for animals and the Earth.

One can reduce their impact on this planet without becoming a (hypocrite) zealot, unless you can convince me you don't have a car, avoid any form of plastics, avoid pesticides, avoid processed vegan food, do not import avocadoes, natto and tofu from overseas etc.

We can both play this game, or we can be just a little more pragmatic and a little less dogmatic.

thinkingtoilet
2 replies
3d5h

There is more to eating meat than supporting industrial "murder".

99% of the meat grown in America comes from factory foods. Despite this, every time the horrible treatment of animals is brought up online all of a sudden everyone is getting their meat from farms where the cows get a message twice a day. Statistically, there isn't much more. I still eat meat, very little these days, but lets be honest about it. Your final 'whataboutisms' don't help either. None of that matters. The truth about meat in America, at least, is undeniable.

DarkNova6
1 replies
3d4h

I don't reside in the US, but I highly doubt it is 99%. There are always ways of getting organic or poultry food.

At the very least in the EU there is no shortage of it and the legal restrictions are strictly enforced.

Anyway, you are doing yourself a favour not ingesting mass-production. There is a very very good reason virtually no country wants to import US-chicken.

wyre
0 replies
3d

Might not be literally 99% but it is close. You can’t find organic meat at restaurants and the price of organic meat at the grocery reserves it for special occasions or for people with enough disposable income (1%) to afford it.

moonmusick
0 replies
3d5h

Ah yes, the ideal solution fallacy.

hhshhhhjjjd
0 replies
3d5h

It seems like you're angrily describing an ideal that you would be ecstatic to achieve, but have no confidence you could ever reach. Just the fact that you _know_ what is hypocrisy (e.g. imported avocados) is a move in the right direction. Without a sense of the ideal, how could you be pragmatic? I think there will always be a vanguard of humanity that is willing to push towards the ideal -- that drags the rest of us pragmatists kicking and screaming into the future.

happytiger
2 replies
3d2h

No. As you obviously know by the phrasing of your question, the issue is that the vegan community has a particular history of agenda over science, and the concern is that any group that starts with a conclusion will build research to support their agenda rather than create objective evidence.

wyre
1 replies
3d

Agenda over science? What? It isn’t anti-science to be against eating meat because of its role in climate change. To think otherwise would be anti-science.

srid
0 replies
2d18h

Agenda over science?

The person you are responding to is right. The anti-meat/ pro-plant position may not have direct industry ties, but the bias is evident in several ways, of which I'll present just a few:

---

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/27592...

But what has for the most part been overlooked is that Katz and THI and many of its council members have numerous industry ties themselves. The difference is that their ties are primarily with companies and organizations that stand to profit if people eat less red meat and a more plant-based diet. Unlike the beef industry, these entities are surrounded by an aura of health and wellness, although that isn’t necessarily evidence-based.

https://peakhuman.libsyn.com/dr-david-klurfeld-on-meat-not-c...

- Dr. David M Klurfeld] was on the World Health Organization working group to decide if meat causes cancer in 2015 with a bunch of vegetarians and vegans and says it was the most frustrating professional experience of his life - There were 22 scientists - half of which were epidemiologists - They claimed they used 800 studies but they actually only used 18 - There was a group of people that were strongly against the vote - He thinks a number of the people made up their minds before they even arrived

https://jilliansnutritionnook.com/plant-based-to-meat-based-...

Looking back I think there were many factors that shaped my previously held stance on nutrition. I believe my education set me up to be susceptible to a plant-based diet. I was educated that too much red meat is not good. I was educated to value fruits and vegetables over meat. With this mind set, I was predisposed into believing red meat was bad for me and that the only animal protein (if any) I should eat was chicken and fish. I became further disgusted by red meat through documentaries and books with a vegan agenda. Red meat causes climate change, red meat decreases our life expectancy, red meat is morally bad. This pushed me further away from red meat and meat in general. I became more focused on this ideology of health rather than listening to my own body. Without me even realizing it, I began to shape my identity around a plant-based diet. It was really hard for me to break up with this idea of what I thought was healthy and it took me months of self-education to open up my eyes.

https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/9/9/251

The emphasis on health ministry within the Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) movement led to the development of sanitariums in mid-nineteenth century America. These facilities, the most notable being in Battle Creek, Michigan, initiated the development of vegetarian foods, such as breakfast cereals and analogue meats. The SDA Church still operates a handful of food production facilities around the world. The first Battle Creek Sanitarium dietitian was co-founder of the American Dietetics Association which ultimately advocated a vegetarian diet. The SDA Church established hundreds of hospitals, colleges, and secondary schools and tens of thousands of churches around the world, all promoting a vegetarian diet. As part of the ‘health message,’ diet continues to be an important aspect of the church’s evangelistic efforts. In addition to promoting a vegetarian diet and abstinence from alcohol, the SDA church has also invested resources in demonstrating the health benefits of these practices through research. Much of that research has been conducted at Loma Linda University in southern California, where there have been three prospective cohort studies conducted over 50 years. The present study, Adventist Health Study-2, enrolled 96,194 Adventists throughout North America in 2003–2004 with funding from the National Institutes of Health. Adventist Health Studies have demonstrated that a vegetarian diet is associated with longer life and better health.

https://aleph-2020.blogspot.com/2019/05/introducing-narrativ...

Dietary policies, mass media, and activists increasingly portray plants as mostly beneficial and animal source foods (ASFs) as mostly harmful. Yet, both sides of this poorly informative plant/animal binary represent heterogeneous food groups, which can be either benign or harmful from an ethical, environmental, or health perspective. It is not helpful to base policies on such simplistic categorization, which derives from reductionist approaches to nutrition, distortions by journalists, societal anxieties, and various forms of bias.
happytiger
2 replies
3d2h

It not a study. It’s a bunch of postulation and no data or experiment and based entirely on conjecture.

simonh
1 replies
3d2h

As is the idea that fire enabled us to boost our nutrition enabling brain growth.

I have no problem with the paper in Nature, and no problem with PBN promoting it. I think they’re overreaching saying it was fermentation not fire. It may well have been both. Fire 2m years ago and fermentation more recently once we had containers to ferment things in.

happytiger
0 replies
3d1h

Well I think it’s awesome to have the discussion and I certainly think the idea has merit… I just don’t think postulations should have the same weight as substantive research no matter how prestigious the journey it gets published in.

That’s really the core of my point.

You could very well be right on fire / ferment and whatnot. We have so very little substantive paleontological information to go off of.

consp
0 replies
3d5h

Shouldn't that be the article reference then? Since that is both the source and not biased.

vjust
15 replies
3d12h

Fermented foods, especially yogurt, kefir, buttermilk are vital for good health. People buy probiotic pills etc. But all it takes is to buy a tub/can of Greek yogurt. The best snack there is.

Medicine is food, food is medicine.

faebi
7 replies
3d12h

That really depends on the country. Some yogurts are very much dead where as in Switzerland they must be alive . Same thing with so many other items.

_moof
6 replies
3d12h

I keep hearing about this "dead" yogurt. What does this mean?

thaumasiotes
1 replies
3d11h

It refers to whether the yogurt is alive or dead. It's not exactly mysterious terminology.

You get yogurt by using bacteria to process milk. In order to do their processing, the bacteria need to be alive. So, for example, adding living yogurt to milk will get you more yogurt, but adding dead yogurt to milk will get you milk with some dead yogurt in it.

_moof
0 replies
2d15h

I agree it's not mysterious. I was asking with some admittedly false naivety because if I'm being honest, I'm skeptical. I've only ever heard about this from people whose opinions on nutrition are dubious in other ways, and it's usually phrased as something like "all the yogurt you get from the store is dead." I eat yogurt every day and I sometimes make my own (using commercial yogurt as a starter), and I've never had a batch fail to start. Apparently I've only ever bought the live stuff.

ml_basics
0 replies
3d11h

They make the yoghurt, then pasteurise it (I guess so it has a longer shelf life). So it tastes roughly like yoghurt but doesn't have any of the good bacteria. I've also seen that sometimes lactobacteria are then artificially added back in so that they are present but in a controlled way.

ioblomov
0 replies
3d11h

For maximum benefit, the bacterial culture that transformed the milk into yogurt should still be active/living.

fuzztester
0 replies
3d11h

Heat treating / pasteurizing the yogurt after making it, kills the bacteria in it. Now the yogurt is "dead". Actually it is the bacteria that are now dead.

Mordisquitos
0 replies
3d10h

A quick rule of thumb is that if the alleged yoghurt does not need to be stored refrigerated it is a "dead" yoghurt — i.e. not allowed to be marketed as a yoghurt in many markets.

Whether or not refrigerated yoghurt-ish products are live or not is another question. If you live in a jurisdiction which restricts the term "yoghurt" to products containing live cultures, you can rely on whether or not the refrigerated product uses the term in its description. Otherwise I have no idea.

bugbuddy
2 replies
3d11h

Have you tried fermented fish? It was very good when I tried it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prahok

I would imagine you are also getting omega-3 from the fish.

remotefonts
0 replies
56m

I dunno if brain gets big, but leg muscle will get stronger when you run away from ghe smell.

elchief
1 replies
3d12h

Less so, chocolate and salami

hnick
0 replies
3d12h

Don't overdo the beer either

garyiskidding
0 replies
3d10h

In certain countries like India and Sri Lanka, fermented rice and lentil cakes (Idli) are extremely popular too as a healthy vegetarian option that is good for the gut.

Broken_Hippo
0 replies
3d8h

You don't need to have 'greek' yogurt for this. What folks call 'greek' yogurt is really just strained yogurt (you can do this yourself with regular, plain yogurt). Any yogurt with the live bacteria in it will do.

TheAceOfHearts
11 replies
3d12h

I wish the article lingered a bit more on how people might've been fermenting foods in the past as well as exploring what fermentable food options were available. It would be interesting to run some experiments storing various foods in different ecosystems over long periods of time. How falsifiable is their hypothesis?

This would've been mostly in the African continent, right? I'd imagine it would be hard to get consistent fermentation going in more tropical climates.

jslabovitz
8 replies
3d12h

The excellent book On Food and Cooking: The Science and Lore of the Kitchen (Harold McGee) has sections on major food groups, along with some incredible stories of how those foods have been preserved in the past — many of which involve some sort of fermentation. I recall one story about birds being encased inside a dead seal, which was then buried for a time (looking that up now, I think it's Inuit 'kiviak'). It's a great book all around, if you're interested in how food works.

fbdab103
6 replies
3d11h

I must be missing something. That sounds like encasing some rapidly rotting meat inside more rotting meat. A significantly less appealing turducken.

It would take some strong convictions to turn multiple meals now (seal + bird) into a future meal that could potentially be stolen by scavengers.

rolisz
2 replies
3d10h

Think about hakarl: icelandic rotten shark. It stinks to high heaven: I'm not kidding, a colleague brought a small sealed cup to the office and opened it. The whole floor (where 80+ people were seated) stank like crazy.

Regular shark meat is poisonous. But if you bury it in the sand and leave it for 6 weeks, the toxin decomposes and humans no longer die from it. But it stinks.

How hungry must have those Icelanders been that they tried this?

Tor3
0 replies
3d8h

Well.. I tried it in Iceland. In a restaurant. Looked like rubber cubes, didn't smell much, but unfortunately it tasted what it looked like (rubber).

HeyLaughingBoy
0 replies
2d23h

Regular shark meat is poisonous

What kind of shark is that? I grew up eating salted shark meat and it was the only kind of fish I'd eat as a kid.

4gotunameagain
2 replies
3d11h

From wikipedia:

  Up to 500 whole auks are packed into the seal skin, beaks and feathers included. As much air as possible is removed from the seal skin before it is sewn up and sealed with seal fat, which repels flies. It is then hidden in a heap of stones, with a large rock placed on top to keep the air out. Over the course of three months, the birds ferment, and are then eaten during the Arctic winter, particularly on birthdays and weddings.  
Things were rough up there

fbdab103
1 replies
3d11h

Well...that is certainly something.

I am still bewildered as to how the method was discovered. Taking valuable seals and birds to run multi-month experiments does not seem like it would make you a popular fellow. Best case scenario, you discovered a way of making what sounds a vile, but technically edible, flesh paste.

The extended quote from the Wikipedia page notes some people have died from preparing it improperly

  Polar explorer Knud Rasmussen's death is attributed to food poisoning by kiviaq.[5][6] In August 2013 several people died in Siorapaluk from eating kiviak that was made from eider rather than auk. Eider does not ferment as well as auk, and those who ate it contracted botulism.[7]

cperciva
0 replies
3d10h

I am still bewildered as to how the method was discovered.

Hunting cultures often have periods of surplus. Most likely this wasn't so much deliberate fermentation as an attempt to store their surplus; the fact that it turned well was a happy accident.

nightfly
0 replies
3d9h

Check out the manga/anime Moyashimon if you haven't already

joshuahaglund
1 replies
3d12h

Iru, fermented locust beans, come from Africa. Tempeh comes from Indonesia. Seems like most fermented foods prefer somewhat warm temperatures

xolox
0 replies
3d9h

I regularly make (grow) tempeh and koji and both require a food dehydrator to keep the temperature around 30°C for the duration of the fermentation (in my case, living in the Netherlands, so Western Europe). Both tempeh and koji are molds (mycelium that doesn't produce mushrooms).

I also make milk kefir, water kefir, sourdough and kombucha and while none of these cultures require the higher temperatures, they do thrive in the higher temperatures.

I also grow quite a few species of mushrooms and have learned that a lot of species incubate quite aggressively at higher temperatures (25-35°C).

ars
10 replies
3d12h

This is a conjecture, not a study.

Sorry if that seems to be nitpicking, but I see too many "studies" like this. A study is supposed to report the truth of something that the author studied.

But this is an idea that the author liked and explored, and then wrote up.

Maybe we can keep calling these studies, and come up with another term for fact based studies. And not "theory" please, that word in a scientific context just confuses everyone.

Edit: "research paper" might be a good name (I saw someone else call it that in a post). i.e. "Research paper posits/theorizes/suggests that Fermented ....."

Also the paper itself doesn't call itself a study, it calls itself an article.

verisimi
6 replies
3d11h

This study strikes me as promotional material with a science flavour. It helps foster the desire for fermented food, ie its a means to shift premium product off shelves. I fancy some kimchi or kefir myself, having read it!

Unfortunately, I think even serious studies have this flaw (of being beholden to funding). The person or group providing the funding need to get a return on their investment. Ie even those more serious studies are a form of conjecture, with only a subset of data being approached, or some important element being excluded.

xolox
3 replies
3d9h

It helps foster the desire for fermented food, ie its a means to shift premium product off shelves.

Sorry but this sounds disingenuous to me. Isn't one of the hallmarks of fermented foods that you can prepare them at home, fairly cheaply in lots of cases? It is to me...

verisimi
2 replies
3d9h

There are books, kits, jars, drinks, restaurants. And you can buy fermented foods in shops too.

xolox
1 replies
3d3h

Okay I understand what you mean now (still don't agree). I'm having a hard time envisioning companies involved in the fermented foods scene coming together and "lobbying" to push their "agenda" but who knows, maybe I'm being naive! ;-)

verisimi
0 replies
3d2h

Imo, that's all there is. Money drives everything.

the_gastropod
1 replies
2d23h

Are you suggesting the study was funded by an entity that sells fermented foods? The authors of the study stated there were no competing interests.

verisimi
0 replies
2d21h

That is what is declared. But we really don't know who funds the studies, what conditions the money comes with, or will be withdrawn under, whether the conditions are even stated, etc.

However, I see:

Hungry Heart Farm and Dietary Consulting, Conley, GA, USA

Christi Hansen

Which doesn't sound like a university.

sapling-ginger
2 replies
3d11h

That is not at all how science works. Outside of Mathematics, there is no such thing as Truth, only conjectures of varying certainties.

Also, research journals are really just fancy forum boards where researchers in a particular fields talk to each other, and even occasionally shit talk. They aren't ever supposed to be a source of truth, and in fact the first thing we learnt as grad student is how to critically read a research journal article and try to poke holes in the study. We are supposed to assume that the articles are wrong, until we can be convinced that they are likely to be correct.

Sometimes I think Google Scholars is a mistake. The general public aren't supposed to be exposed to research literature.

ars
1 replies
3d11h

If I report that "I did this, and then this happened". That's close enough to the truth to call it that. It's available in not just Mathematics: Chemistry, Physics for example.

Then you have the type: "I saw this interesting thing", and that's also close enough to the truth. Geology, Astronomy, Archeology are examples.

That's a study.

But if I look at my own navel and decide "I like this idea because it makes sense to me", that's not a study. That type should get a different name. Theoretical Physics is the high quality version of this.

I'm not saying there's no value in this type of thing!! Just that it's not a study.

Maybe call them "research papers".

Sometimes I think Google Scholars is a mistake. The general public aren't supposed to be exposed to research literature.

Yikes!!! So basically you want people to be sheep and just listen to what they are told, with no access to underlying material?

I'd rather people look at the source, and understand it poorly, vs not look at it at all.

rini17
0 replies
3d10h

If I report that "I did this, and then this happened". That's close enough to the truth to call it that. It's available in not just Mathematics: Chemistry, Physics for example.

No. It's when someone else does "this" and reproduces the result only using your article, only then that's close to truth.

triyambakam
6 replies
3d13h

It used to be meat, and then that was corrected to be starch (potatoes are easy to farm and store)

Terr_
3 replies
3d12h

When it comes to the "Columbian Exchange" [0] there are quite a lot of animals and plants the people today will (wrongly) assume have existed somewhere since antiquity. (Italian tomatoes, Irish potatoes, wild horses in the American midwest, etc.)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange

thaumasiotes
0 replies
3d11h

Bigger than any of those would be chilis. Peanuts are pretty significant too. Maize is hugely significant, but fairly likely to be recognized as American.

Just think what the world could have been like if not for the environmental devastation of the 16th century. ;D

justinator
0 replies
3d11h

Horses are actually endemic to North America, died out around 5,000 years ago and were then re-introduced a few hundred years ago. Kinda crazy.

TheCapeGreek
0 replies
3d10h

Related: A great read on the history citrus and Italy is The Land where Lemons Grow. It's kind of a travel book in some ways.

wirrbel
0 replies
3d10h

It must have been something that predates arable farming (sowing seeds on acres), just timeline wise humanity spread before farming became a thing.

On the other hand I don't think that this must be a one-factor kind of a game changer thing. I could totally think that two to three changes occured in the food chain (meat, starches, food preservation, improved social skills), that combined amplified each other's effect and lead to the development.

famahar
5 replies
3d10h

I eat natto (fermented soy beans) every day. It's probably the cheapest and most healthy food you can buy in Japan. I used to hate the smell and texture, but force myself enough times made me gradually enjoy it.

walthamstow
1 replies
3d10h

What benefits does it have over other fermented soy products that actually taste good like miso or shoyu, or Chinese dou chi?

spidersenses
1 replies
3d9h

Strange question, perhaps, but I'm curious because I always wanted to try Nattō:

If you eat it regularly, do you also smell like it?

I ask because people who eat a lot of garlic (or masala spice) often have strong body odor due to consuming these spices.

famahar
0 replies
3d9h

I notice the smell a bit. Not sure if anyone else notices my body odor changing. It's pretty common to eat it here in Japan. Do you mean the odor clinging to clothes or some physiological smell change?

Tor3
0 replies
3d8h

Natto looks somewhat.. strange. But I got used to it very quickly, I absolutely love rice with natto on top. Can't say I've ever noticed much smell.

aszantu
5 replies
3d11h

reminds me of high meat

recently learned that you need nitric oxide, and when you don't eat veggies, you can still get it from salami, which is fermented meat.

Also trying to make garum these days, will take half a year until it's done though.

wirrbel
4 replies
3d10h

If you are referring to sodium nitrite which is used (as part of curing salt) to preserve meats. Its also not terribly healthy in foods IIRC (of course its healthier to eat cured meat than to eat meat with Botulinum bacteria).

steve_adams_86
3 replies
3d7h

Nitrites in vegetables, unintuitively, aren’t bad for you whereas the ones in salami are, indirectly.

The problem isn’t nitrates and nitrites themselves though, but rather what’s present when they’re digested. Something has to convert nitrates to nitrites, or you need to consume nitrites, then something has to activate the nitrites into something harmful.

With meat, the presence of haem for example allows for the formation of a type of N-nitroso compound (nitrosylated-haem in this case) which is cancer-causing. Vegetables don’t tend to come with such compounds, but actually come with compounds which inhibit the development of harmful nitrite-based compounds. Most of these are antioxidants.

This doesn’t mean it’s impossible for vegetable-derived nitrites to harm you. It’s just far, far less likely.

Fried meat that was previously cured is by far the most dangerous source of these cancer-causing compounds. The most well known example is probably bacon.

aszantu
2 replies
1d7h

could you just use sodium nitrate to salt your food? Like once a week or so?

edit: need=use

steve_adams_86
1 replies
1d4h

No, they're quite different from each other. NaCl (Sodium Chloride) functions as a flavour enhancer whereas NaNO3 (Sodium Nitrate) functions to preserve foods (among other non-culinary uses). The concentrations of NaNO3 used for food preservation are far lower (and strictly regulated in much of the world) than we normally use for flavouring foods when using NaCl.

The flavour profiles are different, and the limits for consumption are much different as well. Too much of both is dangerous, but too much NaNO3 is arguably easier to reach and more harmful in the short and long term. NaNO3 can lead to immediate issues with hemoglobin production for example. In the longer term, high volumes are carcinogenic.

Your primary concern with NaCl is managing safe blood pressure in the longer term, and in the shorter term, it's relatively easy to avoid toxicity or other more minor complications like dehydration.

aszantu
0 replies
11h46m

Thanks! I think im not getting enough nitrate/nitrite. Im pretty allergic to plants so i wondered about this

Tade0
3 replies
3d7h

"Reduced gut sizes could only evolve if our ancestors were able to exploit a more nutrient-dense and easily digestible food source,”

I've been eating more fermented, marinated and pickled stuff lately and while it's nutritious, it's not very calorie-dense - hard to imagine something like this supplying enough energy to power a large brain.

pwillia7
0 replies
3d7h

It keeps too -- I think you would always waste some/have extra food unless you're starving. If you can turn that into non rotten calories, now I don't have to work on calorie getting tomorrow as much and we can try to figure out fire, pottery, whatever.

fuzzfactor
0 replies
3d

it's not very calorie-dense

Reduced gut sizes could only evolve

Well maybe with a less calorie-dense diet the reduced gut sizes would make it easier to fit into the slimmer-fitting jeans and shirts ;)

cool_dude85
0 replies
3d7h

I think the argument is that your fermented cabbage is more nutrient dense (or your body is better able to process the nutrients) than regular cabbage.

trhway
2 replies
3d11h

my take based on several such articles. 8-10M ago humans (big apes that we were back then) got the ability to metabolize alcohol, ie. all those plentiful of fermenting/rotting fruit on the ground became food. That in particular allowed for less tree climbing, more walking on the floor. That, in particular for the purposes of self-defense and body calories storage - to more body mass - that in turn to less tree climbing, more walking (posture change, hands more "handy"). How far the walking? Well, about 2M ago (clocked by the divergent mutations in the tapeworm shared by hyenas and humans, and which has a lifecycle stage in antelope/gazelle) humans got additional powerful energy source - started to scavenge carcasses in savannah, ie. meat eating. That naturally led to the tools (more specifically - weapons) use - hyena has teeth, yet we had hands and the bones to be used as a weapon were right were so to speak. Sticks and stones would do to. Hyenas chances weren't good. Pack of hyenas - well, we were also walking the savannah not alone. So the tools(weapons) usage, pack/tribal organization, energetic food source - that all leads to brain development as well as enabled and improved by such a development. Other fermented foods, food storage and fire seems to be seemingly important points associated with improved tools, social organization and associated brain development.

staplers
1 replies
3d2h

Very interesting theory. Do we know what types of fruits they would have been eating off the ground?

Also wondering if alcohol metabolization can be traced in dna or similar to align this theory.

trhway
0 replies
2d15h

yes, it is DNA tracing, for example (and note - "increasing terrestrialization"):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8308604/

"Paleogenetic reconstruction of alcohol dehydrogenase genes across the hominid phylogeny indicates a dramatically enhanced catabolic capacity in one particular ADH (ADH4, as encoded by the ADH7 allele), starting at about 10 Mya [26]. ADH4, although only one of multiple ADH forms present in mammals, is found primarily in the mouth and digestive tract and thus effects the “first pass” at the digestion of ethanol. This enzyme became dramatically better at metabolizing ethanol following the phyletic split between the lineage leading to modern orangutans and to the other great apes, including ourselves. It thus correlates well with increasing terrestrialization among the African apes, possibly yielding greater access to fermenting fruit crops on the ground, and thus resulting in increased ethanol within the diet [26]. "

xLaszlo
1 replies
3d10h

It's beer, isn't? Completely makes sense...

If they find evidence that the next step was caffeine, I have no more questions...

m463
0 replies
3d10h

well kimchi and kombucha for breakfast

west0n
0 replies
3d12h

And this is just a "External Fermentation Hypothesis"

penjelly
1 replies
3d6h

fermented foods/beverages are more acidic and therefore should aid with digestion. In ancient Mesopotamia they drank beer with most meals, what if that wasnt only because it was safer than water, but also aided you to digest the foods you did eat, faster?

giraffe_lady
0 replies
2d23h

My understanding is that in those early agricultural mesopotamian societies the lines between beer, bread, and porridge were very blurry by modern standards. They didn't so much drink beer with meals as drink a thick, sludgy beer as meals. And that was valued because the malting step increased the availability of the calories.

They also had more familiar-to-us breads, as well as unfermented cooked grain gruels. Again though which of these things you call bread and which beer is a value judgement. Some of the porridges could be drunk and some of the beers thick enough to eat with a spoon.

noduerme
1 replies
3d12h

Fermentation is just one kind of preservation. It seems to me that preserving food has a larger impact on individual survival by promoting group survival, than does any speculative benefit to individual gut health specifically tied to fermentation.

pwillia7
0 replies
3d6h

Me too -- Think about what a boon stored calories would be vs all your food rotting every few days and having to worry about getting more would be.

Grubbo
1 replies
3d11h

I'm thinking they ate partially digested and fermented food in their preys stomachs.

ramon156
0 replies
3d2h

Never thought about it, but that makes decent sense

zvmaz
0 replies
3d7h

The source can obviously biased. I became a vegetarian recently for ethical reasons and the critiques I receive around me center solely on health issues, with the occasional "we are humans, we eat meat!". These have absolutely no bearing on the ethics of vegetarianism or veganism. I understand people want solid arguments from different perspectives, but for me, they are useless.

mrbbk
0 replies
3d5h

Proving that it really is the pickle that makes the meal.

lenerdenator
0 replies
3d4h

As opposed to fermented drinks, which were a pivotal moment in human brain shrinkage (at least the temporary variety).

happytiger
0 replies
3d10h

We close with suggestions for empirical tests.

Oooook. Call me when you have some of those.

This is just complete conjecture, and while interesting, isn’t a study. It’s a postulation.

divbzero
0 replies
2d13h

In other words, slightly processed foods can be a good thing.

chiefalchemist
0 replies
3d7h

Or, perhaps it was both? The combo would be something that is unique to the species, yes? Fire (via meats) supplied certain nutritional advantages. Fermentation increased guts bacteria, which we are finding has broader impact on the system that is the human body.

Is don't understand the obcession with making everything binary, and then from there having to have a single winner take all assumption.

begueradj
0 replies
3d7h

This study mentions what's briefly said in "Fantastic Fungi" 2019 documentary: https://www.netflix.com/fi-en/title/81183477

Apart from this, when I was a teenager, I remember I read in a Belgian scientific magazine called "Athena" that studies confirmed red meat to be the key to our ancestor's brain evolution.

Simon_ORourke
0 replies
3d11h

It's not long now before some celebrity chef starts knocking out recipe books featuring fermented giraffe and describing it as a "true Paleo" diet.