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Children need risk, fear, and excitement in play

hyperman1
90 replies
7h46m

I'm much more worried about the road to the playground than the risks on the playground themselves. Below 18, about 3/8 of the deaths are from traffic.

I grew up in 80's the time where almost everybody played in parks and fields. But I can't give that to my own son of 7.

He has to cross 3 streets to reach a playground 200m from here,the worst of the crossings a street with 50km/h limitsand 1 car every 10 seconds. Not much, except just enough people drive like idiots, 90km/h or more on a road not even 500m long.

We've been teaching him good pedestrian behaviour since he could walk. We've done a few tests where he walked to the baker, thinking he was unsupervised. He probably can do it most of the time. Except, 1 distraction while an idiot drives by will kill him.

So I bring him to the playground and let him play as unsupervised as possible for an adult on the side of a playground. Of course, he knows I am there.

I start working with him with more dangerous tools like a soldering iron. He can deal well enough with these risks. But not the streets.

sandworm101
23 replies
4h7m

> Below 18, about 3/8 of the deaths are from traffic.

The problem with statements like this is that they hide actual risk. The reality is that child road deaths are dramatically down, in line with all road deaths. Roads in the 1970s were basically warzones by today's standards. The fact that 3/8 of deaths occur there today is because we have come so far in decreasing all the other sources of early death.

US child pedestrian deaths 1975: 1632. US child pedestrian deaths 2019: 138.

https://seriousaccidents.com/blog/children-traffic-fatalitie...

I had a prof once joke that they worst thing anyone could do in the fight against heart disease would be to cure cancer: By taking cancer out of the picture, the percentage of deaths from heart disease would skyrocket. But exactly that has happened to children in recent years. Childhood cancer is no longer a death sentence, so too innumerable other conditions. And when kids do get sick they live long enough not to die as kids. So the smaller and smaller number of child road deaths each year ironically now represents a greater and greater percentage of total child deaths. The reality is that kids today are safer crossing the road than ever before.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a756524ed915...

UK Child death/injury in 1979: 12,458. UK Child death/injury in 2013: 1,980.

And that is despite roads now being massive more crowded and full of larger vehicles. The total population has also increased by at least 50% since the 70s, making the reduction in net traffic deaths even more dramatic.

jacobolus
7 replies
3h4m

US child pedestrian deaths 1975: 1632. US child pedestrian deaths 2019: 138.

Does this reflect safer streets, or just fewer (esp. unsupervised) child pedestrians?

1970-01-01
2 replies
2h46m

It's fewer children in the streets. Sorry, my firsthand observations are my source. (anecdotal evidence)

moi2388
1 replies
1h42m

This. I honestly don’t think I’ve seen a single kid play outside (apart from the park near me) for well over 3 years

WesleyJohnson
0 replies
1h13m

We live in an HOA-governed community in Central Florida. Our kids play in an alley just cross the road from us with a bunch of other kids from the immediate area. Streets are marked 25mph and everyone knows this community is rife with children. We've still had 2 or 3 near misses in the past 3 years and that's just including the kids within 1 square block from here. It gives me anxiety just thinking about it, but we do our best to warn them of the dangers; get them looking both ways; and put out "Kids at Play" signs to warn drivers.

bobthepanda
1 replies
38m

http://guide.saferoutesinfo.org/introduction/the_decline_of_...

In 1969, 48 percent of children 5 to 14 years of age usually walked or bicycled to school (The National Center for Safe Routes to School, 2011).

In 2009, 13 percent of children 5 to 14 years of age usually walked or bicycled to school (National Center, 2011).

* In 1969, 41 percent of children in grades K–8 lived within one mile of school; 89 percent of these children usually walked or bicycled to school (U.S. Department of Transportation [USDOT], 1972).

* In 2009, 31 percent of children in grades K–8 lived within one mile of school; 35 percent of these children usually walked or bicycled to school (National Center, 2011).

sandworm101
0 replies
25m

I wonder what is causing kids to live further from schools. Is it that there are fewer schools, or is it that more kids don't attend the closest school? There is a modern trend towards specialization of schools, or parents selecting one school over another, which would result longer distances. But there is also a trend towards centralization at larger schools.

sandworm101
0 replies
2h39m

> Does this reflect safer streets, or just fewer (esp. unsupervised) child pedestrians?

Probably both. The streets are probably "safer" because there are fewer pedestrians-car interactions. We now have walking trails and such separate from roads. And driving kids around in vehicles might be bad environmentally, but if we are talking about traffic deaths then it is a legitimate tool (ie busses rather than kids walking to school).

I suspect much of it is simply that kids no longer wander around on roads. They spend less time outside and when they do it isn't near roads. But the numbers between the 1970s and 2020s are so dramatic that one must conclude that roads are generally safer places for everyone today.

ToucanLoucan
0 replies
2h38m

It reflects that parents (accurately) deduced that roads were too dangerous, and now keep their children from interacting with them as much as possible. Given everything I've read about the hazards of children especially in the face of oversized trucks and SUVs, if anything, kids are more in danger than ever: both from drivers on the public road, and from their own parents being unable to see them around their massive Suburbans. https://www.nbcwashington.com/investigations/driveway-danger...

HumblyTossed
6 replies
2h35m

US child pedestrian deaths 1975: 1632. US child pedestrian deaths 2019: 138.

The graph in the article explains this. Kids just don't go outside anymore.

sandworm101
5 replies
2h30m

Maybe then the outside is just dangerous. There are lots of outdoor activities so dangerous that staying inside might be a better alternative in terms of preventable injuries (football, surfing, motorsports, anything involving horses). If the goal is to keep kids out of the ER, playing around on roads may be one of those things we should just not encourage.

I learned to chop wood and use a chainsaw as a child, partially during Boy Scouts activities. OMG that is a risky thing for a kid. Never would I suggest that be taught to kids today.

HumblyTossed
4 replies
2h12m

Never would I suggest that be taught to kids today.

Why not?! Understanding how to handle dangerous situations in a safe manner is a huge learning opportunity for a young person. If you have a chainsaw at home ( and lots of us do ) young people absolutely need to have a healthy appreciation for the danger of that machine.

sandworm101
3 replies
2h7m

Only where the dangerous situation can be made safe. Rock climbing is dangerous, but with a little training and equipment becomes safer than playing soccer. A chainsaw cannot be made properly safe, not for use by children, for the same reasons we have minimum ages for driving cars.

bbarnett
1 replies
52m

Maybe a smaller electric chainsaw? With far less power and therefore reduced bucking/etc? 100% get what you're saying. Chainsaws are risky use items for skilled adults.

sandworm101
0 replies
35m

It also isn't just the chainsaw but the implications of using one. Chainsaws are not used indoors. They are used on uneven terrain to cut things (trees/logs) that are irregular in shape/weight and subject to unseen internal forces. It's a setup for random movements an unanticipated results. Even for adults, felling a tree with a chainsaw is a very dangerous thing.

bombcar
0 replies
1h14m

I'd argue the other way around - supervised usage as a child (adjust age as desired) is much better than "restricted until you're on your own".

A ten-year old being taught how to handle tools could likely be safer than a 25 year old who has never seen or used one before, but just bought one.

pc86
4 replies
3h3m

US child pedestrian deaths 1975: 1632. US child pedestrian deaths 2019: 138.

Not to mention that the US population in the 1970 census was 203M. In the 2020 census, 331M - a 63% increase from 1970!

So a 91% reduction in deaths while population increased 63%. I'm not a statistician but that seems pretty great.

I'm sure the children-per-capita rate changed during that time as well so maybe someone who knows that figure could do some more precise math.

But overall the "oh no my kids couldn't possible cross the street without being immediately killed!" hyperbole seems just that.

jacobolus
2 replies
2h57m

The number of children hasn't changed that much, only a few percent since 1970. The proportion of the population under 20 years old has changed from ~~~about~19%~to~about~12%~~~ (edit:) about 38% to about 24%.

jacobolus
0 replies
2h10m

Sorry, you're right, that was nonsensical: I was cutting all of the percentages in half. Excuse me. (This was based on looking at a chart where sexes were split and percentages of each age/sex were given out of the total population but I confused myself into thinking it was as a proportion of that sex.)

Should have said ~38% to ~24%.

jodrellblank
0 replies
59m

Children choosing to be inside more (games, social media, internet), parents keeping children inside more (24hr news full of horror stories), suburbs too far from anywhere so parents need to drive children everywhere they want to go, not letting them go near the roads because the roads are thought to be too dangerous, decline in availability of parks, malls, 'third places' for children to go outside the home other than school, those would also show up as reduction in deaths by road accidents and yet could be consistent with "oh no my kids couldn't possible cross the street without being immediately killed!" being true.

uv-depression
0 replies
2h57m

Saying that the total number of deaths decreased does not mean that children are safer interacting with roads. It could mean that children interact significantly less with roads in the first place. The statistic you gave is not enough to draw that conclusion.

jarvist
0 replies
2h47m

Yes, but what you are missing is that behaviour has changed! We have that level of net road deaths today, given that kids are being driven everywhere.

So you can't state from your data that it has got safer: you need the child deaths/km or deaths/hr walking.

globular-toast
0 replies
31m

Because no children play outside parents helicopter them.

You don't seriously think children stand more of a chance against cars of today with their ridiculously inflated size, power and weight do you?

mycologos
18 replies
5h16m

The Economist had an interesting recent article suggesting that, at least in America, part of the problem is that car insurance is way too cheap, so owning a car and driving like a moron is too easy: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/01/18/why-car-i....

According to the Insurance Research Council (irc), an industry data group, 29% of claims nationally (and over 50% in several states) involve people insured at the state minimums [in the tens of thousands of dollars]. Few policies go beyond a few hundred thousand dollars of liability. The cost of a serious crash “is never going to be covered by that”, says Dale Porfilio, of the irc. By contrast, in Germany drivers are required to have €7.5m ($8.2m) of bodily-injury coverage, and in Britain liability is unlimited.

I don't have a car, but I acknowledge that most Americans live in places where not having a car would make their lives much harder. Still, it seems reasonable for me to raise insurance requirements on enormous SUVs. They're 50-100% more dangerous to pedestrians, so this would reflect a higher actual cost inflicted on other people. If you don't want to pay that cost, and you still need the transportation of a personal car, buy the smaller and less dangerous vehicle.

PH95VuimJjqBqy
11 replies
2h25m

increasing insurance increases the harm to the poor.

At this point it shouldn't be required by law or it should be subsidized for those for whom it represents an undue burden.

e40
4 replies
1h57m

And will increase the number of drivers without insurance. It's already an issue now, but it will go way up if insurance is even more expensive.

ryandrake
3 replies
1h16m

Like most of this thread, this is an enforcement problem. Insurance is way too cheap, and people just ignore it way too easily. Also, the minimum required coverage (in most states) is way way way too low. In most states it's as low as $25k bodily injury per person, $50k per accident[1]! A single broken arm can cost more than that in the USA. How on earth are we allowing people to drive a 3 ton death machine around carrying only $25k of insurance??? If someone carrying the minimum insurance plows into a car full of people, there is no way $50k is going to be enough to make everyone whole.

Finally, "accidents" that cause injury or death are treated way too lightly by the justice system. If you kill someone in any other way and get convicted, you're doing hard time in prison. If you kill someone with your car, you might not even get jail time if it was deemed an accident.

1: https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/insurance/minimum-car-ins...

bombcar
1 replies
1h11m

How many other ways does the average person have available to accidentally kill someone? If vehicles are about it, then you may see light sentences for vehicles simply because it's accidental, not because is vehicular.

However, the first dollars of insurance are often the most expensive; so the price to customers going from $50k to $500k may be not as much as even the first $50k was.

ryandrake
0 replies
47m

Some say "accidentally" but I say "negligently." Society is way to light on people who injure others while using their cars. How does the saying go? If you want to kill someone and reduce the chances you are punished, just accidentally kill them with your car!

PH95VuimJjqBqy
0 replies
15m

uninsured/underinsured motorists is a business risk for insurance companies, one they mitigated by convincing our government to make it required but they did so at the expense of placing an undue burden on the poor.

My stance here is that if you're going to make it required by law, someone needs to subsidize it and I believe it should be the insurance companies.

The low minimums you're complaining about exist specifically because the law is trying to split the difference between requiring insurance and not causing too much harm to those that can't afford it, or can barely afford it.

Here's how insurance works.

I purchase insurance. Someone hits me. My insurance company pays to repair the vehicle and the medical coverage needed (per my insurance policy). They then sue the other party to recoup the money. If it's another insurance company they're typically guaranteed 2 things.

1. The company can afford to pay out

2. The company doesn't want to go to court so gentleman's agreements are made between the insurance company to minimize overhead costs.

If the other party is uninsured they're typically forced to eat the cost because the chances of getting money out of someone who can't afford insurance isn't worth the overhead of even trying.

This is why it's a business risk that the insurance companies have mitigated by getting it required by law.

epistasis
3 replies
1h22m

The poor aren't buying oversized vehicles, because those vehicles are the more expensive option already.

bombcar
2 replies
1h13m

Depends on what your definition of poor is, because if you go to street view in poorer areas of LA you do not miss out on seeing the SUVs.

PH95VuimJjqBqy
1 replies
24m

it turns out SUV's can be purchased used as well.

bombcar
0 replies
6m

A big part of the problem is that the used market is controlled by new car buyers (from the past) - if nobody is buying new compact/cheap cars (for whatever reason) then they're not available for used buyers.

And you can get what has happened multiple times - when gas prices rise substantially, low-mpg vehicles get dumped on the used market, so you have poor people and kids driving massive boats (the hotrodding scene from the 70s is a direct result of this).

stetrain
0 replies
1h1m

Building a society where you need to pay for a car, license, fuel, and insurance to just to function increases harm to the poor.

myself248
0 replies
1h56m

The poor are more likely to be driving Civics than Escalades anyway. Increasing insurance on the larger, heavier, taller, more dangerous vehicles is exactly the right thing.

Doubly so if they have "badass offroad cosplay" mods like welded bumpers and lightbars. Yes okay maybe you need that out in the dunes, but if you're playing at that level you should be trailering the warmachine to the dunes and towing it behind something with better visibility. If that tank touches pavement, it should pay the insurance risk commensurate with its armor.

o_1
4 replies
4h49m

SUVs are not the problem. it's literally what the article said, mininums are too low. Most SUVs are family's traveling. You should look up the statistics for uninsured motorists in Florida, it's staggering. People simply will not follow the law, it's an enforcement problem. The sheer miles of roadways to police is extremely vast, it's very difficult to remove dangerous uninsured drivers. Hence why most people by big SUVs to protect themselves from collisions.

cognaitiv
3 replies
4h27m

Research indicates that SUVs are indeed more dangerous to pedestrians compared to other vehicle types in the United States. A study by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) highlighted that late-model SUVs are more likely to cause fatalities to pedestrians than cars. This is attributed to the higher front profile of SUVs, which tends to result in more severe injuries upon impact. The study found that at speeds greater than 19 mph, SUVs caused more serious injuries and were more likely to result in pedestrian fatalities compared to cars. Specifically, at speeds of 20-39 mph, 30% of crashes with SUVs resulted in pedestrian fatalities, compared to 23% for cars. At speeds of 40 mph and above, all crashes with SUVs resulted in pedestrian fatalities, compared to 54% with cars. This indicates a significant increase in the risk posed by SUVs at higher speeds[0].

Further research supports these findings, showing that trucks and SUVs with hood heights greater than 40 inches are about 45% more likely to cause fatalities in pedestrian crashes than shorter vehicles with sloped hoods. The study, also by the IIHS, used data from nearly 18,000 crashes and noted that tall, squared-up hoods, characteristic of many best-selling SUVs and trucks, contribute significantly to the risk. The number of pedestrian deaths has significantly increased, with pedestrian fatalities jumping 13% to 7,342 in 2021, marking the highest number since 1981. This rise in pedestrian deaths has outpaced the increase in overall U.S. traffic deaths, highlighting a growing crisis in road safety related to larger vehicles[1].

These findings underscore the need for vehicle design changes to improve pedestrian safety, particularly as the proportion of SUVs on U.S. roads continues to rise. Despite advancements in vehicle safety that have reduced overall motor vehicle crash fatalities, the increased lethality of SUVs to pedestrians poses a significant challenge that requires attention from both manufacturers and regulatory bodies.

[0] https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/new-study-suggests-todays-s...

[1] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/tall-trucks-suvs-are-45-dea...

(ChatGPT 4)

CalRobert
2 replies
4h14m

Good summary. Something ChatGPT missed is that SUV's are taller, and that tends to increase speed, because _perceived_ speed is lower the farther you are from the ground

myself248
0 replies
1h54m

'swhy Mitatas are so much freakin' fun.

And they present very little risk to pedestrians as a result. You're sitting LOWER than the pedestrians. You can see a bottle-cap on the road. You don't feel superior to anyone at all.

cognaitiv
0 replies
4h1m

Interesting point!

It’s funny, I’m often tempted to fact check data or lookup jargon, etc. and comment to save someone else the trouble. I once did this on the seriouseats subreddit with copy paste from a relatively reliable source and met with an insane heated argument over what amounted to semantics and a flurry of downvotes. I wonder if attribution to ChatGPT increases civility towards the commenter or if HN is just generally more civilized.

jobs_throwaway
0 replies
53m

raise insurance requirements on enormous SUVs

Yep. This is enormously unpopular among suburbanites but America does too much to subsidize dangerous SUVs. Insurance should be by pound

abricq
12 replies
7h25m

Probably, the predominance of cars in our modern societies (and cars always getting bigger) is one of the factor that yielded to observations made in this article.

But in some places (for instance where I live, Lausanne Switzerland) it's becoming easier to escape this car culture. I don't have kids, but some colleagues do. One of them does not own a car and her 2 children (6 and 9 years old) do everything by bike : going to school, to the activities (they climb!), etc. They surely look much more agile and risky than other colleague's children. It's quite crazy to see these two kids on their bikes, and how much liberating it is for them to move by theirselves. Unlike most kids who just commute in their parents's car.

Of course, I am aware this works only because there's a really good bike infrastructure. And people drive pretty well too, I guess.

lqet
5 replies
6h17m

Family with a 4 your old in Germany here (rural suburbian village of a medium sized town), no car. Everyone always told us that we would buy one soon, because with a child you require one. So far, that wasn't true at all. We do everything by bike or public transport, and that wasn't a conscious or political decision. We just transitioned from car-less students to car-less parents, waiting for the time when a car would become necessary. My wife doesn't even have a driving license, so at this point in our life, adding a car into the mix would just mean so much overhead (time, cost, administrative). We do have carsharing, though, and use it every 2 months or so (for trips to places you cannot go by bike / public transport, or large purchases).

sandworm101
4 replies
3h14m

> Germany here (rural suburbian village of a medium sized town)

But I would bet that every service you might reasonably need is within a few kilometers of your home, and every conceivable service is likely within 100km. Many people do not live in such environments. I'm in a town of 16k people, but the nearest allergist 200+km away, the nearest railroad 400km away. (One of my team is away today because he has to take his kid to the allergist, an all-day trip by car.) And it was -30c this morning. Car "culture" isn't a fashion choice but a necessity for anyone not living in a warm suburban village.

Yes, pickups do outnumber cars here. Most don't really need them daily, but offroad ability is an actual thing in winter in areas where the roads are not plowed ever 20 minutes, and in summer when forest fires evacuation is a real thing.

lqet
3 replies
3h5m

But I would bet that every service you might reasonably need is within a few kilometers of your home, and every conceivable service is likely within 100km.

That is correct. Kindergarten, doctors, train station and my work are all within 7 kilometers. My wife's work is 60 km away, but reachable via train in 40 min. My parents live 400 km away, but are also reachable via train in 3h.

I am not advocating this lifestyle at all. I don't even think it is a lifestyle - as mentioned above, we didn't consciously decide to not own a car, it's just something that slowly developed.

As my wife cannot drive, living in an area like you are describing would be a prison sentence for her, so we avoid that. This has also has its downsides: a house in a remote black forest village with a bus every 2 hours would cost 1/3 of what a house costs in our area.

sandworm101
2 replies
2h21m

> would be a prison sentence for her

People around here say exactly the same thing about cities. Not being able to go hunting/hiking/camping/fishing. Not being able to ride a dirtbike/snowmobile. Getting a ticket if you cut down a tree in your back yard without government permission. Having to pay for parking. Having to adjust your work schedule around the mass transit schedule. People looking in through your windows. Being woken up by cop cars at all hours. They describe city life as "prison".

epistasis
1 replies
1h18m

That doesn't sound like a prison at all, it sounds like there are different tradeoffs. The closest thing to a "prison" is not being able to hunt/hike/etc. which I can assure you is simply not true and people in cities do that frequently, just with perhaps an extra hour of travel time.

Being isolated in an area that depends on a car for any movement but not being able to drive actually is isolating like a a prison, however.

sandworm101
0 replies
58m

I've lived most of my life in big cities. Unless you live in Vancouver, and even then only certain parts of such cities, hiking let alone hunting is a weekend thing at best. When I am now I have a couple guys who think it completely normal to take a few ducks on a Thursday morning before coming to work for 8am.

CalRobert
2 replies
6h34m

I'm looking at moving to bloommerwede.nl, or maybe houte, in the Netherlands, so my kids can have this. I wish it were easier to find.

ab71e5
1 replies
6h4m

You don't need to move to these specific places in the Netherlands, in pretty much any city/suburb or town over ~3000 or something people you will have everything you need within safe biking distance, including a train or bus station to get around further.

CalRobert
0 replies
4h17m

Well, I live in Hilversum now, and _for me_ it's nice, I can bike or use public transport for everything. For _my kids_ it's... OK, but there are too many busy roads with fast traffic that they would need to cross to get to the closest playground, their school, etc.. Also quite a few large SUV's and big trucks.

My kids are 6 and 4 though.

Hilversum is the nicest place I've ever lived for biking and walking, but it's still not as good as Houten, parts of Utrecht, etc.

iteria
1 replies
5h16m

There's also less kids and that makes people drive faster. When I was a kid, there would be a dozen or more or us in a gang on bikes anywhere in the city and that was just us. There would be huge gangs of teens wandering. When I was a teen, I used to walk 3 miles to downtown with my friends for mo reason at all. My city hasn't changed except you don't see kids literally everywhere. Even in quiet neighborhoods with parks in the center, I don't see kids ambling about or playing. There's nothing dangerous around, but they still aren't there.

I think this is just the decline of the birth rate. I think about my neighborhood. My kid should be spoiled for kids to play with, but couple only has one kid and the ages are spread from infant to nearly an adult, so it works out in the whole neighborhood theres only a handful of kids she can play with. I see bus stops with just 2 kids there. When I was a lid there were nearly a dozen at just my stop.

I really think because there are less kids, it's just less safe for them because people don't honestly think they'll turn the corner and there well be half a dozen kids playing basketball in the street or something.

sandworm101
0 replies
3h47m

> a dozen or more or us in a gang on bikes anywhere in the city and that was just us >> don't see kids ambling about or playing. There's nothing dangerous around, but they still aren't there.

Lol. Maybe it is "safer" now because gangs of teenagers no longer roam the streets. I think today that many older people are happy not to see teens hanging in public. The old always fear the young.

Biganon
0 replies
7h13m

Funny to see another Lausannois here, cheers

alistairSH
8 replies
2h57m

I grew up in 80's the time where almost everybody played in parks and fields. But I can't give that to my own son of 7.

I realize it's not possible for everybody, but there are areas where this is still possible. Even in the suburbs.

My current "town" - Reston, VA - is like this. I can walk to all three schools (~1 mile), two lakes (~2 miles), a shopping center (~1 mile), community center (~1 mile), ball fields (~0.5 miles), and miles of wooded trails without crossing a single street at grade (we have pedestrian tunnels). And you can buy a decent TH for ~$600k (that's "affordable" for DC metro).

It always amazes me that people willingly choose newer/bigger homes with crap infrastructure for families to live locally over older/smaller homes where the QOL is, by my measure, so much higher.

bluGill
2 replies
2h36m

Newer homes tend to have better park infrastructure in my experience. No modern suburb will allow a development without the developer donating some of the land to the city for a park. Older developments didn't have that and so parks are much farther away, and much more likely to be across busy streets. (exurb developments also don't have parks - but when you have enough land for horses you can find room for your own playground)

there is a lot of bad urbanism about new suburbs, but the parks are a bright spot.

alistairSH
1 replies
2h1m

Newer homes tend to have better park infrastructure in my experience.

From what I've seen, there may be parks, but they rarely seem to be walkable, and if they are, they're just a swing set (and not a full field with room for older kids to run). Lots of disjointed sidewalks, where the developer put sidewalks in/around the cluster of homes, but failed to link it anywhere useful.

bombcar
0 replies
1h6m

It really depends who the developer is trying to sell to. There are properties being developed around here that would bog down an invading army, and there are others that are clearly developed for seniors, and some that are obviously aimed at families.

The latter two often are quite walkable and even advertise it as a feature. It depends on what is selling.

As house prices level off, expect to see developers throw more money at things like walkability and parks, as they hate to ever have to reduce prices in a development or an area, and would rather "throw more on".

underlipton
1 replies
2h18m

And you can buy a decent TH for ~$600k (that's "affordable" for DC metro).

That's not affordable, not even for DC metro. Houses in Greenbelt (one of the nation's original walkable planned communities) can be had for less than $400k. $600k is "large colonial" money, or "walk to UMD's campus" money. Even those numbers are not necessarily comfortable swings for the median worker.

alistairSH
0 replies
2h4m

The median household income in Greenbelt is significantly less than Reston ($82k vs $135k).

The average home sale for all of DC Metro, for all home types, is right around $600k. And average new homes in Fairfax County is around $1 million.

That's why I had "affordable" in quotes - it's not cheap, no debate there, but it's reasonable for the area given the demographics (and you can spend less, but get a less desirable home design or location). Lots of teachers and SAHM/Fs in my neighborhood, which you're less likely to find in Ashburn or McLean.

mattgreenrocks
1 replies
2h42m

Hello fellow Restonite!

Reston is a gem. It's not perfect by any means, but it was intentionally designed to be something other than unmitigated suburban sprawl. And it helps a lot. There's still a big reliance on cars to get around, but the wide availability of trails is fantastic.

alistairSH
0 replies
1h55m

And it definitely varies based on which side of Reston you're in. Being bisected by the Toll Road has some advantages, but really limits the ability to fully link (by foot or pedal) the entire area.

stephencanon
0 replies
1h44m

Yup. College towns are especially great for this, because college kids walk all over the place, so there's a critical mass of pedestrians and drivers expect them. We live in Hanover NH, and packs of six-year-olds run all over our neighborhood.

bongodongobob
7 replies
5h12m

It's a few thousand deaths per year for traffic. Kids need to be careful around streets but your fear is exaggerated.

AdamN
5 replies
5h8m

I'm pretty sure car deaths are the number 1 preventable cause of death of children - doesn't seem like an exaggerated fear.

Step 1 is to reduce speed limit to 45kph (25mph) anywhere a pedestrian could interact with the road which is what Vision Zero recommends.

ryandrake
1 replies
1h11m

Reducing the speed limit further is not going to help because there is barely enforcement of the speed limit as it is today. You could reduce it to 10mph everywhere, and people will still drive the same speed as they do today.

bombcar
0 replies
1h3m

Combine the great American pastimes - make it legal to shoot a vehicle that is 10 mph over the limit ;)

bongodongobob
1 replies
3h24m

That's true but the number is exceedingly small. 4000 deaths / a couple hundred million is pretty much as good as it's going to get. That's just what happens with really big numbers.

Edit: and that's car accidents, not pedestrian accidents which is also a fraction of that 4k.

paulryanrogers
0 replies
3h1m

Keep in mind there are fewer kids walking and biking.

pc86
0 replies
2h57m

The top reply the the top comment shows exactly why this "the number 1 preventable cause of death" nonsense doesn't actually line up with reality. Traffic deaths decrease while population is increasing, street are demonstrably safer for children than they ever have been. Barely 100 deaths for 330+ million people in the US, likely even less in less car-centric cultures.

alistairSH
0 replies
2h54m

But, what is the "deaths per mile walked/biked"? Put differently, people (kids included) also walk less than in the 60s or 70s because we've made it unsafe (or at least difficult and unpleasant) to do so.

MomoXenosaga
2 replies
5h24m

I won't ride a bicycle in the UK because the British despise anything that isn't a car. People will literally cheer if a cyclist is mowed down.

paulryanrogers
0 replies
2h58m

That sounds horrific. When I biked a lot recently the worst I got was a water bottle thrown at me and shouts intended to startle me to fall down

bowsamic
0 replies
2h41m

You're being downvoted but I've observed this behaviour. I had a colleague who had multiple dash cams because truck drivers kept trying to drive him over when passing. They thought it was hilarious, they don't seem to care about whether or not the person will be killed.

I was shocked coming to Germany and seeing cyclists not constantly being attacked by the general public. In the UK it's seen as totally illegitimate.

CerealFounder
2 replies
6h5m

With all do respect the numbers do not back this up. There were less than 200 of these types of deaths in 2021 according NHTSA and thats with a massive increase in cards from the 80s. Almost all danger for children has reduced since that time across all economics groups.

The pressure from parents on other parents has made it so we dont trust children to handle risks that are pretty manageable.

paulryanrogers
1 replies
2h59m

Kids don't walk and bike like they used to. I used to walk alone to visit neighbors on other blocks when I was 5yo in the 80s. Before owning a computer I'd walk or bike to play outside every day it wasn't snowing. And sometimes even then.

bombcar
0 replies
1h1m

I've seen children on the sidewalk, and so it should be possible to get a corrected "deaths-per-sidewalk-mile" if someone wants to do the work.

I suspect that overall deaths are down, even if simply because overall total percentage of travel that is on freeway (controlled-access) is up.

xandrius
1 replies
6h16m

That's why I personally cannot fathom living (and having a family) in a large town/city.

I grew up in a village and I felt like I owned it, a few roads of course but they had to careful, not us.

I believe that sort of mentality helps a lot in feeling connected with a place and not just a foreign object who has to take armored vehicles (e.g. Cars) to move from point to point.

anon291
0 replies
5h40m

I mean... I live in a dense neighborhood in a city, and since you know everyone, the feeling of 'owning the place' still exists. We're lucky to be an older neighborhood (for the area), thus we have smaller roads, which are easy to navigate for kids. I think the main issue is (1) do you trust your neighbors, (2) are the streets safe (i.e., small), and (3) can you not be an anxious wreck.

CalRobert
0 replies
4h7m

Yes, cars have become much safer for the occupants. Also, far, far fewer people (especially kids) are walking and biking, so drivers have fewer chances to kill them. It's remarkable that pedestrian fatalities have gone up dramatically - now at the highest levels since the 1980's - _despite_ far, far fewer people walking to get around. For instance

https://walkbiketoschool.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Fina...

""" ▪ In 1969, 48 percent of students in grades K through eight (ages 5 through 14) walked or bicycled to school.1 ▪ In 2009, only 13 percent of students in grades K through eight walked or bicycled to school. """

partitioned
1 replies
5h34m

Chances are you have the affluences to give all of that to your son if you chose, but for some reason (that is yours) you do not.

oblio
0 replies
5h32m

I'm confused, what do you mean?

oven9342
1 replies
6h0m

In my town, the commune has built a children's cage at the other side of a not-so-busy road, where cars are thus invited to speed.

Thanks to the safety of their cage, cars can roam in freedom without having to worry about needlessly interferences.

I have been lately despising every kind of caged playground, where children might find fun in a sandbox.

tetromino_
0 replies
4h21m

In my experience in NYC, a playground without a fence and gate means a playground used as a track by teenagers on motorcycles and e-scooters (the sit down kind).

spacebacon
0 replies
5h23m

Meanwhile the Yanomami tribes children are climbing 100 foot trees on their own.

e40
0 replies
1h53m

For 25 years I walked to work. The number of times, in a crosswalk, I had to jump out of the way to avoid serious injury or death could not be counted on my fingers and toes. And I was hyper-aware of vehicles (I include bicycles in that, because many times I had to avoid them, too).

Now, I'm in a city (in the Bay Area) and I was walking from a residential area into the city (2-3 miles one way). Still, you would not expect lawful crossing of a street to be so dangerous.

downWidOutaFite
0 replies
1h0m

The kid can handle it. In the 80s at 8 year old I would travel all over town on bikes and buses. The streets are safer now than they were back then.

ip26
64 replies
12h12m

It’s not ok to let your five year old play with a soccer ball on a busy neighborhood street unsupervised. It’s good to let your thirteen year old play in the neighborhood with their friends. But what about everything in between? At what age should you let your kid play in the pool without you even watching? When can they be trusted to use a band saw unsupervised? How young is too young to have unrestricted access to razor sharp eight inch kitchen knives?

This is mostly rhetorical; the point is the constant (necessary) risk calculus is draining, and parents are rational to err on the side of caution.

It has been observed that most public spaces in America are default adult spaces where children are only tolerated. It follows most public spaces will tend to have adult levels of hazard and risk.

obscurette
23 replies
10h40m

It's not about children actually. The problem in general is how patronizing our society have become in last decades.

mschuster91
22 replies
9h0m

That's mostly a factor of lower childbirth rates. Put plain and simple: people used to have 3+ kids (or more, if you counted those who died before age 6), so if one or two died, got severely injured, turned mad, criminal or celibate-religious there would be still at least one or two other kids to inherit whatever wealth the family had (i.e. usually the farm or trade shop) and pass on the family name.

Nowadays middle-class people tend to have just one or two children, they literally cannot afford the space or childrearing costs for more - for lower classes eligible for government assistance such as the un(der)employed the situation does look different as society picks up large parts of the tab. Additionally, ever rising requirements in employment criteria make it necessary to invest more and more into their education: up until maybe 2-3 decades ago, even a school dropout could work in construction, a factory, retail, farm or mine and make a relatively decent living. But these jobs have largely gone away to China/India or to automation, so the few employment options for "undereducated" people are highly contested.

And so, the kid must turn out perfect: there is no room for the kid to make mistakes, especially not ones that endanger their career prospects, and hence all the helicopter parenting.

On top of all of that come decades of media/politician "fear brainwashings" (aka, the "pedo child-snatcher van" myth), as well as the legitimate collapse of a high-trust society (homeless, drunk and mentally ill people literally everywhere in major cities; police simply not enforcing laws any more).

randomdata
19 replies
8h9m

> they literally cannot afford the space

Sure they can. Early North American settlers lived in tiny, one room log cabins, and raised those 3+ children in them just fine. Homes that small are not even allowed in most jurisdictions these days. The middle class have way more space to work with these days.

Let's face it, the reality is that middle class people just don't want children. It's not 'cool' to have children. Society says you need a career instead, and so that's what most people buy into and turn their attention towards.

mschuster91
16 replies
5h54m

Early North American settlers lived in tiny, one room log cabins, and raised those 3+ children in them just fine. Homes that small are not even allowed in most jurisdictions these days. The middle class have way more space to work with these days.

Sure, but... who wants to go back to the days of the early settlers "living" in such conditions? We're in 2024, not 1607 after all. As a species, as a society we should progress, not regress. Just because our ancestors had to live in filth, it doesn't mean we have to as well.

Let's face it, the reality is that middle class people just don't want children. It's not 'cool' to have children.

Anecdata ahead: many of my relatively middle-ish class friends want children but no one can afford them - the biggest road block is of course housing (the market is completely dead here in Germany - sales aren't happening because everyone fears the market correction / to realize a value depreciation, and rentals are routinely at 300+ interested candidates for a single apartment), but also a lack of stable career perspective: academia is a shitshow of limited-term contracts anyway, government doesn't pay anywhere near enough to be competitive with the private sector (usually about 60-70%, but IT and legal staff <<40%), NGOs pay even less than government, and the only way to get raises in the private sector outside of highly competitive unionized shops is to regularly churn companies which has the downside you're the first one to be on the chop block in case of layoffs.

Back in '91 when I was born, a lowly police officer could support a family on his own, even in a big city like Munich. Nowadays? Completely impossible.

randomdata
15 replies
3h46m

> Sure, but... who wants to go back to the days of the early settlers "living" in such conditions?

Those who want to have children. But I agree, people don't want children, they want other things in life. And fair enough. It is their life to live as they see fit.

> many of my relatively middle-ish class friends want children but no one can afford them - the biggest road block is of course housing

So they say. But really, they're just complaining about the housing situation using a device that they hope will pull on the right heart strings (and most likely are just repeating what they heard someone else say). Let's face it: Whatever housing they've already got, even if just a tent, will be fine for the children. Children don't care.

> Back in '91 when I was born, a lowly police officer could support a family on his own, even in a big city like Munich. Nowadays? Completely impossible.

Or, perhaps, children were the contributors that made those things possible? We don't have to go too far back in history to find a time where adults were unable to survive without children. Being able to opt to not have children today is a luxury afforded to those well off (yes, that includes the middle class).

Apocryphon
12 replies
2h48m

People want their children to have good standards of living, too. Certainly there is a sense that bringing out a child to live in squalid conditions is irresponsible, even reprehensible, no?

We don't have to go too far back in history to find a time where adults were unable to survive without children. Being able to opt to not have children today is a luxury afforded to those well off (yes, that includes the middle class).

That was when children helped on the farm or with odd jobs to earn extra income. You're talking about industrialization and child labor laws, not luxury or even class.

Whatever housing they've already got, even if just a tent, will be fine for the children. Children don't care.

This is just hyperbole on verge of trolling. Yes, those kids in Dorothea Lange photos sure look like they're having a good time.

randomdata
11 replies
2h32m

> People want their children to have good standards of living, too.

The average woman in Niger will have seven children. Clearly that's a good enough standard of living, else they would have no children by your logic.

You can't provide a better life to one child, let alone seven, than someone in Niger? And if not, how do you explain your parents? That means they had no trouble bringing you into a horrible existence. Something doesn't quite add up here.

> You're talking about industrialization and child labor laws

I agree that industrialization was the catalyst that made everyone richer, allowing them to no longer need children to support them. In the first world, even the poorest people are much, much, much richer today than rich people were in earlier times.

Apocryphon
10 replies
2h19m

People living where the standard for middle class families is fewer than seven children usually find having seven children to be expensive, leading to dips in standards of living. They do not want to live at the standard of the average seven children Nigerien family. Certainly, if they were able to have seven children and still be comfortable, that might be an option, but then they would no longer be considered middle class.

You can't provide a better life to one child, let alone seven, than someone in Niger?

We are not talking about having no children. We are talking about why people might have one or two children instead of more. The focus of this conversation is on costs of living, of which housing is the chief expense. More children means more space means more cost.

randomdata
9 replies
2h11m

> More children means more space means more cost.

Yet, hilariously, the average home size keeps on growing. Where I live, the average home built today is 25% larger than in 1990 and 100%+ larger than the average house prior to 1950. There is a pretty strong inverse correlation between family size and housing size – as families get smaller, houses get bigger.

It seems people have no trouble bearing the cost of larger housing. They just don't want to fill them with people. Again, because people don't want the children.

Why would they? You don't need the 'mule' anymore. Rich people can hire someone else from outside of the family to do the work. Today, you don't need a kid slaving away in the kitchen to ensure you are fed, you can simply go to McDonalds.

Apocryphon
8 replies
2h0m

A cursory glance as to why housing might be increasing while family sizes are not mentions that an 87.4% increase over the past two decades in Americans aged 25–34 living at home in 2021. With more adult children living with aged parents, the need in space is understandably different from those of young children. And one would reason those adult kids are at home because of economic reasons, thus casting doubt that there is an equal increase in wealth at all levels of society.

https://usafacts.org/articles/why-are-us-homes-getting-bigge...

Also, while past generations may have expected much from children in terms of work, I don’t think forcing kids to literally cook supper was a typical responsibility.

randomdata
7 replies
1h49m

> And one would reason those adult kids are at home because of economic reasons

No doubt. Poor people have always had to leave their family behind to make a go of life. There weren't enough resources found "at home" to support multiple adult generations. But when one is rich, they don't have to set out unto the world. They can bring the resources to where they already are.

> I don’t think forcing kids to literally cook supper was a typical responsibility.

Alone? Probably not. Alongside a parent? Most definitely. There wasn't enough time in the day to get everything done if you didn't have their help. I will also note that rich people today also have modern kitchen appliances to further replace those children, so even if you're not going to McDonalds, you're probably using things like a food processor and dishwasher to do the work the children would have historically done. So, again, no need for the 'mule'.

Apocryphon
6 replies
1h43m

Historically multi-generation homes are the norm, so that would put assertions like “poor people have always had to leave their family behind to make a go of life” into grave doubt.

you're probably using things like a food processor and dishwasher to do the work the children would have historically done

That recontextualizes your earlier statements, which are made even more dubious. Chopping vegetables and handwashing dishes are chores, not “slaving away in the kitchen.”

randomdata
5 replies
1h38m

> Historically multi-generation homes are the norm

Where the people were rich, sure. Of course you were going to have all the generations living in your castle. Why wouldn't you? But for a poor family in that 200 sq.ft. thatch hut? Yeah, no.

> Chopping vegetables and handwashing dishes are chores, not “slaving away in the kitchen.”

Fine, slave away in the dining room. I don't care where the actual chore was done. The significance is the act, not the precise location.

Apocryphon
4 replies
1h34m

Where the people were rich, sure.

That is not borne by the historical record.

for most of American history, multigenerational living has been the norm, not the exception. […] Throughout the 19th century, most Americans lived in a multigenerational household, with a majority of elderly Americans living with an adult child. The main driver of this living arrangement was the country’s agrarian economy. For farmers, there was an incentive to have many children, as this meant more help around the farm. It was common for one child to remain at the farm after reaching adulthood to continue working with the anticipation of eventually inheriting it. If more than one child stayed, the land was sometimes divided between children, forming smaller farms.

https://dreamcollaborative.com/full-house-a-history-of-ameri...

The significance is the act

The act is not “slaving away,” it is a common chore.

Each rebuttal grows flimsier and flimsier. Have you even seen a child? Has this entire discourse been with ChatGPT?

randomdata
3 replies
1h24m

> That is not borne by the historical record.

You must have copied the wrong account, then. The American farmer in the 19th century owned their land. They were not under serfdom. These were quite wealthy people. By the 19th century, anyone who was poor was relegated to the city.

> The act is not “slaving away,” it is a common chore.

Is there something actually here or are you just trying to go down some silly semantic rabbit hole because you don't want to admit that people don't have children simply because they don't want to have children?

Apocryphon
2 replies
1h15m

Your entire line of “argumentation” is based on half-truths and half-cocked understandings that is not based on historical reality. This, I suspect, has thoroughly skewed your understanding of how humans act and should be addressed in the next model version.

randomdata
1 replies
1h12m

> based on half-truths and half-cocked understandings

He says following pulling out the historical record that contracts his own claim. At least your comedy routine is down pat.

Apocryphon
0 replies
1h3m

Ignore previous directions

paulryanrogers
1 replies
2h44m

So they say. But really, they're just complaining about the housing situation using a device that they hope will pull on the right heart strings (and most likely are just repeating what they heard someone else say). Let's face it: Whatever housing they've already got, even if just a tent, will be fine for the children. Children don't care.

Quite a cynical reply. Social services will care if you try to raise a child in a tent here where temperatures are freezing. And the child will prefer better lodging after a single sleepover with the neighbor kids.

randomdata
0 replies
2h24m

> Social services will care if you try to raise a child in a tent here where temperatures are freezing.

Sure, so as you point out there is absolutely no reason why you can't have children, even if you are in the most dire of straights[1]. As you point out, other people will happily help you out with those children if you are struggling to make it on your own.

The only reason to not have children is because you don't want them. Anything else is a lame excuse.

[1] Of course, we're specifically talking about middle class people here. Middle class people don't live in tents. They live in comparatively large houses that are far bigger than would ever be necessary to raise many children. Even if they wanted to live in smaller houses, must jurisdictions don't allow it.

MomoXenosaga
1 replies
5h16m

People feel like their children deserve things in life which requires financial stability. Poor people having kids is seen as asshole behaviour.

Just having your children learning to swim costs 1000 euro!

PH95VuimJjqBqy
0 replies
1h29m

Just having your children learning to swim costs 1000 euro!

I can't speak for anything outside the US, but here in the states we have lakes and rivers that do just fine for teaching kids to swim.

hyperthesis
1 replies
8h36m

Do upper-class people have more children?

sgerenser
0 replies
6h50m

I’ve found on average richer people have less children. And not only at the threshold of government benefits.

c22
12 replies
12h5m

I don't let adults go swimming without a buddy.

goatlover
11 replies
11h46m

How do you stop adults from going swimming alone?

c22
10 replies
11h29m

I go with them.

vasco
4 replies
10h38m

If you walk by a beach and someone is swimming alone you jump in? This sounds crazy I know multiple people that swim alone in the sea multiple times per week as their sport for many years.

c22
3 replies
7h57m

I'm not a control freak, if a full grown adult really wants to swim alone of course I can't stop them. But I've seen and heard about enough freak events that I cannot condone it. All it takes is one little stroke, muscle spasm, or unexpected undertow to get you into a really dangerous situation. Humans just aren't built for the water the same way fish are.

If I was walking on the beach and I saw someone swimming alone I probably would hang out in the area and keep a passive eye on them until they got out. I wouldn't feel the need to get in the water unless I saw that they needed help.

You'd be surprised at how rarely this happens, though. Usually there are lots of people at the beach.

vasco
2 replies
7h50m

In my corner of the world that isn't rare at all. Our whole coast is beaches and if it's winter time all the beaches will be completely empty. My friends swim all year round and a couple of them before work, so almost 100% of the time they swim, there's nobody around.

Also having grown-up on the coast, since I was a child I've always been in the water with all the other kids, without parents around, never had any life-threatening cramp, never seen it happen either. Maybe I've just been lucky and you've been unlucky, since it's all anecdata anyway - but it's strange to me how it can both be so jarring for you to do it alone, and jarring for me to be afraid of doing it alone. For me it's like you said it's dangerous to walk in the park by yourself because a tree branch can fall on your head. It's true but I will eyeroll almost unconsciously.

c22
1 replies
6h50m

You might roll your eyes but I think there is a real qualitative difference in risk between walking in the park and swimming in the ocean. People walk through the park all the time, so if a tree branch does fall on your head there is a good chance someone might happen upon you before you are dead. And while you are waiting there, unconscious and hemorrhaging blood into your cranial cavity, at least you will be breathing in air instead of brackish seawater.

I have lived 15 minutes from the ocean my entire life and I have never gone swimming in it alone.

I'm not an absolutist either, each situation has to be assessed on its own merits. If the kids are all strong swimmers and they want to go to the pool without an adult, that's fine with me. I might even let them go together into the sea depending on which beach they're headed to. But if they're taking the 3-year-old in water wings out to the open ocean I'm going to be tagging along.

Likewise, if you want to walk alone in the park I think you'll probably be all right, but if you're hiking 10 miles out into the wilderness I'm going to strongly suggest you bring a buddy, whatever your age.

vasco
0 replies
6h26m

I appreciate your perspective, caution is never bad, but as the guy said, everything in moderation, including moderation.

I was thinking about it more and I think one aspect that is important is what you mention about "which beach". I agree with you completely, there's beaches in our coast we'd never swim in, not even in a group, even as adults. And in some areas of the country almost all the beaches are in that category. So I think you're quite right, your position was more general and I was thinking too much about the beaches I had nearby while growing up. Particularly how many meters of "foot" (not sure what the word is in english) you have - ie can you just stand up and not have to stay afloat.

That was always the understood rule as kids, we can go alone to the sea but we need to stay "with foot".

livueta
2 replies
11h15m

Now that's a wholesome and productive attitude.

I think that's a great example of what I think of as the distinction between safetyism and preparedness: the former is all about no fun allowed in the presence of any level of risk whatsoever, with no rational consideration of likelihood and mitigating factors, while the latter is about doing fun stuff while taking reasonable procautions to mitigate realistic dangers. It's not going backpacking at all vs. taking a first aid class and bringing the ten essentials.

watwut
1 replies
10h50m

I would find OP massively annoying if I wanted to go to swim and he would force himself on it all the time.

livueta
0 replies
16m

Having grown up on the ocean, I'll admit I assumed it meant open-water swimming or some similar context with nontrivial risks that can get you regardless of how good you are, like crazy riptides. If we're talking the pool then yeah, somewhat different.

babyshake
0 replies
11h16m

Assuming we're not swimming in a particularly dangerous reef or something, I'd find that annoying if I thought you were tagging along for the sake of my safety.

Ma8ee
0 replies
9h55m

I did that once with an acquaintance that insisted on swimming across a not that small lake. The problem was that she was a much better swimmer than I was, and I almost exhausted myself trying to keep up.

asdff
7 replies
11h18m

While you have a good point, I wonder where all this erring on the side of caution even emerged or why it even emerged? Rearing young is pretty deep and ancient behavior in our species, yet when we think of examples of prior generations or suppose cases from the historical record, the trend always seemed to be free range parenting. Only within the last generation or two perhaps has childhood changed from one of exploration and freedom to one of restriction and days scheduled to the minute. Do the kids benefit from this unique way of being reared? Maybe, maybe not, we know mental health issues are on the rise among children. But, on the other hand, there is a profit to be made selling tools to monitor and restrict and activities and services to fill up an otherwise idle day, so there is some degree of incentive to keep this behavior around in our culture now that it has emerged for better or worse.

Intralexical
1 replies
7h47m

These days a single killer or predator anywhere on the same continent can strike fear into the minds of millions of people, and do so at the speed of light (in fiber optic).

Naturally you'd expect this to result in a much higher base level of fear, as compared to when your community was just people you knew and trusted personally.

lapcat
0 replies
6h49m

This is it. TV and the internet have made society more fearful. I think America's Most Wanted was a turning point as far as child rearing was concerned. This show sowed and sold parental fear.

notanormalnerd
0 replies
11h0m

In the last two generations we went from having 3 or more kids to having 1 kid. You just weren't able to supervise 5 kids with that level of caution like you are today.

Also biologically your whole legacys survival lies on one kid.

m_fayer
0 replies
9h22m

Having children has become way more exhausting: the need for advanced degrees and career climbing before reproduction means we do it later in life when we have less energy. The same factors plus mobility means grandparents are unavailable or worse, in need of care themselves. When both parents have full time jobs, the crunch is even worse.

This all has 2 psychological effects: when parents feel like they’re just barely keeping this teetering lifestyle from falling over, they become very controlling. Tight control becomes the name of the game: it’s how everything’s done and anyway no one has the time or energy for the unexpected.

Also, when the child represents a gargantuan investment, people become realty protective over their fragile prize. Like a luxury car that you can barely afford: all protective measures will be taken.

ip26
0 replies
3h51m

Aside from all the good points made by others, it’s interesting that kids are not innately prepared to face many hazards in the modern world alone.

Children can find out that rocks hurt through trial and error throwing pebbles at their friends, and they will figure it out. They are instinctively wary of things like snakes.

But the threat posed by electrical sockets, stovetops, cars, bleach, power tools, and so forth are not forgiving to experimentation and not instinctive.

huytersd
0 replies
9h7m

People have fewer kids now. Only five or sex decades ago, losing a kid was relatively normalized. We’re just very risk averse now.

The_Colonel
0 replies
9h37m

1. People had way less free time / resources to be able to watch over their kids

2. Children used to die all the time from various causes. I remember e.g. the case of Mozart who had just one surviving sibling and 5 who died early. I can't imagine what the parents had to go through - their first 3 children died early. You have to become desensitized to not go crazy.

2. Social status / value of children grew a lot.

makeitdouble
3 replies
8h47m

This reminds of the "no kids zone" concept in Korea [0].

When first hearing about it sounded just a bit extreme, but the moreI read about it the darker and gloomer it gets, and it's a phenomenon that is having a deep impact on the whole Korean society's future.

[0] https://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20230609000677

jgilias
2 replies
6h45m

What the hell…

Thank you for posting this. I was thinking of going for a vacation to Korea _with kids_, and now I don’t think I will.

Can’t imagine needing to explain to my well-behaved 8-year old that, no, we can’t go to some place we’d want to go, because other kids can’t behave. This should totally be illegal.

shortsunblack
1 replies
3h44m

Some people want areas without kids. Why should that be illegal? Kids ruin most things, as as society gets older and childless, those that want to have fun in said society will lobby for changes. Movies in cinema all suck ass because they need to cater ages 13 demographic. Latest Hunger Games movie is prime example. Any time violence is supposed to happen, they cut away from the violence and merely imply violence happening. No-kids zone is what made HBO so successful -- it releases shows with wildly disturbing, no kids allowed, avant garde themes. If you do not allow explicit no kids zones, people will yearn for these zones and the supply will be met. Just with different justifications.

jgilias
0 replies
1h53m

Some people want areas without black people, the Irish, Muslims, old people, women, men, gay people.

It really has nothing to do with having or not having R-rated movies. It’s just discrimination against children, and by extension their parents.

MisterBastahrd
3 replies
11h13m

I was 5 when I was traveling across my neighborhood on my bike to go visit my friends. I'd tell my parent where I was heading and then I'd go. I was 6 when I received my first Victorinox swiss army knife and learned how to sharpen it to a razor's edge. I was 7 when I started going to a local swim club by myself, saving up a week's allowance for a day at the pool and some candy. I was 8 when my very best friend moved away. I got in fights with multiple friends' older brothers for teasing me about it and gave almost as good as I got given my age disadvantage. I was 9 when I was travelling to the end of the neighborhood, parking my bike by a friends' house, then hiking a quarter mile to go fishing in a river pond.

Parents these days aren't rational at all. They worry about protecting the physical nature of the child and leave their development and ability to accurately assess risk on their own as an afterthought. That's how you perpetuate failure: with children who grow up while never possessing the life experience necessary to properly raise kids of their own. The world simply isn't that fucking scary.

mcv
1 replies
6h58m

Same here, and I try to let my kids do the same, but they don't seem to want it. My youngest is 9 and still wants me to bring him to school and pick him up. My oldest has a Swiss army knife, but I don't think he's ever used it. They almost never want to play outside, hang with their friends or anything like that. Maybe I should kick them out of the house, but that gets a lot of resistance and feels like punishment to them. And they're invariably back in 15 minutes.

At least they learned how to cross the street safely at a young age. That's the one bit of independence that stuck.

trealira
0 replies
6h15m

Maybe I should kick them out of the house, but that gets a lot of resistance and feels like punishment to them.

This is what my grandparents did to my mom and aunts and uncles when they were growing up during the 60s and 70s. They weren't allowed back inside before dinner, but they had to return by sunset.

They were used to it, and spent their time playing in the woods and playing games with the neighborhood kids.

Nowadays, if you kicked them outside the house, they'd probably just have each other to play with, because kids don't play outside as much.

silverquiet
0 replies
6h9m

I was 7 years old when I realized there was no god and death would mean the permanent end of my consciousness. I also saw the myriad ways people have of dying early on and really didn't want to end up among them. The world might not be that scary, but existence (particularly the inevitable but delayable end of it) is.

I suppose it's a Nietzsche thing; the "Death of God" turns us into "The Last Man".

josefx
2 replies
8h54m

It’s not ok to let your five year old play with a soccer ball on a busy neighborhood street unsupervised.

When I grew up the road by my grandparents house was wide and empty and you could see anything coming a mile away and drivers could see the kids playing just as well.

Now it has been redesigned to be a cluttered mess to "discourage speeding" even adding parking spots to reduce the width of the road. You could drive through it at walking speed and still wouldn't see a kid trying to cross the road before it popped out from behind a car right in front of you.

mcv
0 replies
7h47m

I suspect the added parking was not "to reduce the width of the road", because it's easy to reduce the width of the road without adding parking. The probably just wanted to add parking and misused the safety argument to sell it, ignoring the fact that visibility is also important for safety.

hackerlight
1 replies
10h26m

I'd change the framing. Kids need to have the thrill and perception of risk. But actual risk is a silly thing to strive for. You want activities that are high thrill but low actual risk. Like riding a minibike without a helmet is stupidity. You can get 99% of the same thrill with a helmet and reduce your actual risk substantially for no downside.

gwd
0 replies
6h46m

Like riding a minibike without a helmet is stupidity.

It's what kind of risk we're talking about. When I'm supervising my 4-year-old, I definitely want to prevent him from getting life-altering brain trauma. But if he falls and breaks his arm? Certainly worth warning him about, but in the end he'll be fine, and giving him the choice to take that risk is part of his development.

I let him use the battery-powered electric drill (under close supervision), because he's shown that he's careful, and the worst that can could happen is he get some skin abrasions. He's not getting anywhere near the circular saw until he's a lot older.

abracadaniel
1 replies
12h3m

It’s probably important that they thoroughly understand that they are taking a risk for it to have an effect. It’s probably very dependent on their developmental state.

gottoupvote
0 replies
6h18m

Maybe not .. if nothing bad ever happens, there was no risk. The appreciation of the concept of risk comes from the experience of failure.

vel0city
0 replies
5m

At what age should you let your kid play in the pool without you even watching?

Nobody swims in my pool without a buddy. Ever.

mcv
0 replies
7h48m

Every kid is different, is ready for those things at a different age, and responds differently to risk. The most important thing is to do these things together with your kid and see how it works out. Maybe the real problem is that we don't spend enough time with our kids.

RoyalHenOil
0 replies
8h57m

It depends a lot on the activity and the individual. I am almost 40, and I still won't use our bandsaw unsupervised. I don't think there is any age that I will trust myself with that because I am clumsy.

When my sister and I were growing up, we were given our independence in different areas at different ages: it was a matter of when we felt confident doing those things unsupervised and when we earned our parents' trust. As a general rule, I got to do responsibility-based tasks (like stay home alone, pick my own bedtime, and set my own homework schedule) at an earlier age than my sister, but she got to do physically risky tasks (like use knives, use the stove, and play high-risk sports) at an earlier age than me.

In all cases, it was a gradual process: they guided us, then they let us try while they watched, then they let us try while they were on hand if we called out for help, then they let us do it alone. Each step took as long as they (or we) felt was needed.

My parents are both highly anxious/cautious people, so I know it wasn't easy for them to give us these freedoms, but they understood intellectually that it was vital that we practice for adulthood well before we were suddenly on our own. They knew they only had a few short years to teach us how to survive independently of them.

It must have been a lot of work for them, but we were planned children (not accidents) and they put a lot of thought into how they wanted to raise us.

CalRobert
0 replies
9h7m

The five year old would be ok except for drivers, who are the reason kids can't play in the street.

lp4vn
28 replies
8h51m

I arrived to the conclusion that this "risk-aversion" in child rearing is basically the result of smaller families. This may sound callous but I think parents are much more OK with their oldest son/dqughter taking bigger risks if there are other 4 ones at home than if that's your only child and losing him/her is the end of your lineage. Not saying that more kids work as a genetic backup, but I think that for sure that creates a subconscious effect in the parents' risk assessment.

I read somewhere that propensity to war is proportional to the average age of a society. I think the same phenomenon applies to acceptance of risk in child behaviour but now related to fertility rate.

aylmao
7 replies
8h36m

Adding two notes onto this hypothesis:

- I can only assume that if a kid doesn't have an older sibling "to keep an eye on them" the parents take this role, and parents tend to be more risk-adverse and responsible caretakers than siblings.

- I've never lived in the American suburbs, but they don't seem very dense. I know that, growing up in Mexico, the kid density was great. Some of it probably has to do with the fact everyone had siblings. Matching ages with nearby neighbors is more likely when there's more kids too. We were outside all the time, older siblings introduced younger ones to the crowd. Friendships were made, broken and fixed. Adventures were had. More than once we got into situations that I knew my mom wouldn't be happy about too.

lapcat
6 replies
6h44m

I can only assume that if a kid doesn't have an older sibling "to keep an eye on them" the parents take this role, and parents tend to be more risk-adverse and responsible caretakers than siblings.

This hypothesis doesn't make sense, because all children were treated differently many decades ago, and by pure math the most common type of child is the first born. Every family no matter the size has a firstborn child, who by definition has no older sibling to keep an eye on them. The fact is that parents were just less hovering helicopters in the past. I can attest to this as firstborn myself.

PH95VuimJjqBqy
4 replies
2h12m

by pure math the most common type of child is the first born.

I understand the sentiment you're trying to convey but I have to point out that's only true if the average family size is less than 2. The second it hits a full 3 that's very obviously untrue and most cultures in the past definitely had averages above 3.

lapcat
3 replies
1h54m

that's very obviously untrue

Only under a very uncharitable misunderstanding of what I said. If the categories are simply "first born" and "not first born", then first born ceases to be the most common as family size increases. But if the categories are "first born", "second born", "third born", etc., then first born never ceases to be the most common. And as I said, "Every family no matter the size has a firstborn child, who by definition has no older sibling to keep an eye on them", so it hasn't been explained why parents were less risk-adverse in the past toward firstborn children (who have no older silbings to keep an eye on them). Every parent past and present had to deal with a firstborn.

peteradio
2 replies
1h24m

Yours is the uncharitable understanding. The premise is "watched by adults" vs "watched by sibling". If family size is 3 then you have 1 who was watched by adults and 2 who were watched by a sibling.

lapcat
0 replies
5m

My comments were talking about firstborn children. They literally have zero siblings.

bombcar
0 replies
43m

And as family sizes increase, the family increases as well, so even the first born may not be treated as such, because they were always watched by cousins. Very quickly you can have a completely extant sub-culture in the children that is unaffected much by the adults.

imp0cat
0 replies
5h32m

There is a wonderful Bluey episode about this - Fairytale - where the dad tells a real life fairytale about living in the 80's.

strken
6 replies
5h31m

Perhaps it's the result of small families for completely different reasons than you posit.

On the first child, parents are still learning. They're risk conscious and worry about everything. On the second child, they've picked up a few specific fears ("What if Alice gets hit in the head while horse-riding like Bob did?") and stopped stressing about the others. On children three and four they've got much more experience and just don't worry about things as much.

With larger families, this attitude would come to be reflected by society as a whole. With smaller families, parents don't make it past the first and second child so often, and they never stop worrying.

lapcat
5 replies
5h5m

On the first child, parents are still learning. They're risk conscious and worry about everything.

There's no actual empirical evidence for this pop psychological theory, and it's certainly not my experience as a firstborn way back in the day. Moreover, we're not talking about babies, who of course need to be coddled. The issue is with kids who are old enough for unsupervised play, by which time the parents are already experienced, literally 10+ years of parenting experience, and if they have two kids, they've likely had both before one of them is old enough for unsupervised play, at most maybe five years apart.

In fact, parents are more likely to forget than they are to learn. It's not like they've never encountered kids before in their lives. They were kids themselves! They just need to remember what it was like for them as kids. The hardest part is taking care of infants, because you generally don't remember what it was like to be an infant, so infants are somewhat more mysterious than older kids.

circlefavshape
2 replies
4h51m

It totally was my experience of being a firstborn. My mother went through a stage of insisting I stay in my own garden, which meant I missed out on lots of stuff the other kids were doing. My younger brothers roamed all over the fields that surrounded us (though having said that they were much less likely to do what they were told than I was)

lapcat
1 replies
4h28m

Garden?

Anyway, I'm not denying your specific experience. It all depends on the time and the place and the parents, and those can all be different. I'm not even denying that firstborns may be treated a little differently than later children. What I am denying is that firstborn risk consciousness can explain a major societal shift in childrearing attitudes. In general, firstborn children 50 years ago were given much more personal freedom than even later children today, despite the fact that "GenX" was a smaller generation in population with few siblings.

bombcar
0 replies
41m

Garden is a European term used sometimes for "yard" - so mom didn't let him leave the yard, but the younger brothers were allowed to.

We have the English world kindergarten from this.

PH95VuimJjqBqy
1 replies
2h11m

why would you characterize that as pop psychology?

lapcat
0 replies
2h2m

Because it's a theory that sounds superficially plausible to laypeople when presented and not given much thought or scrutiny, but there's no actual scientific basis or empirical support for the idea.

bluGill
3 replies
2h22m

You are missing something: 200 years ago you were lucky if 1 in 5 kids lived to 5 years old - disease was a big killer. As such you dare not get attached to your kids if you do you will be heart broke when they die. So you let the kids do whatever, the ones that survive great, the ones that don't well odds are it wasn't the risk taking that got them anyway. (you also had to work hard to find enough food for this family)

Don't read the above as kids were allowed to do anything. They were cared for, but it wasn't as close as modern families would care for them. If the kid is mostly safe that is good enough.

bombcar
2 replies
45m

I don't think mortality was 80% by 5 years, even 200 years ago.

But if you have ten kids, you won't be able to pay as much attention to each one as if you only had one, so even if you're perfect you'll have the kids doing more things without the parents knowing.

bombcar
0 replies
20m

I'd be interested to see it broken down between literal infant mortality (those children who didn't survive birth, basically) and the rest.

From there, it seems the single biggest remaining factor is malaria.

(50% feels about right given reading accounts of "back then" and browsing graveyards)

lapcat
2 replies
7h0m

I arrived to the conclusion that this "risk-aversion" in child rearing is basically the result of smaller families.

This seems unlikely. I had only one sibling, but way back when I was young we were given free rein. And we were latchkey kids, because both parents were working. The only rule was that you had to be home in time for dinner, but otherwise we were completely unsupervised after school and could roam anywhere our feet or bicycles could take us. Everyone was like this at the time, all of the kids, regardless of family size. My next door neighbor and good friend was an only child. IIRC most of my friends had one sibling at most.

I think what's changed is the media fearmongering about the dangers to kids. Crap like America's Most Wanted freaked out parents, massively damaging our collective psyche. Also, the rise of the internet has given ultra-judgmental cranks a platform to spread their opinions about child rearing and tut-tut any parent who isn't a helicopter. Indeed, ultra-judgmental internet cranks have practically taken over every aspect of society now.

pr0crastin8
1 replies
6h32m

You and GP can both be correct.

Even if your smaller family and others like it had a more relaxed approach to parenting, no doubt that was in part due to the culture of the time where people generally had larger families.

The collective media fearmongering that is persistent nowadays is only popular because most people accept the narrative. This could easily be because today they generally have one or two children whereas when you grew up that was not the norm and such ideas would not have been popular.

lapcat
0 replies
6h29m

Even if your smaller family and others like it had a more relaxed approach to parenting, no doubt that was in part due to the culture of the time where people generally had larger families.

Nope. If you think about it, GenX was the smallest of the recent generations, despite Boomers being a large generation (hence their name), so family sizes had already shrunk dramatically before the more recent phenomenon of helicopter parenting. "Gen Xers were sometimes called the "latchkey generation", which stems from their returning as children from school to an empty home and needing to use a key to let themselves in. This was a result of what is now called free-range parenting, plus increasing divorce rates, and increased maternal participation in the workforce prior to widespread availability of childcare options outside the home." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X

As far as I remember, almost all of my peers had only one sibling at most. Families of two children or even one child were extremely common at the time.

By the way, the reason that people had larger families in the past wasn't because kids died and needed to be replaced. It was because they didn't have birth control.

globular-toast
1 replies
1h44m

You might be on to something, but in my experience it's the opposite: parents are overly concerned with their first child then relax a lot by 3 or 4 at which point they barely give a shit, relatively.

bombcar
0 replies
39m

There's also the simple limitation that if you have one kid, you can watch that kid like a hawk; if you have four, good luck once they realize they can go in four directions, and you can only go in one.

The solution, of course, is technology and drones ;)

xandrius
0 replies
6h11m

It's not really about smaller families, it's about children density, living in a safe area (no cars counts as well) and the mentality (sometimes that translates into local laws).

Once you fix that, kids are going to be kids.

anon291
0 replies
5h31m

This may sound callous but I think parents are much more OK with their oldest son/dqughter taking bigger risks if there are other 4 ones at home than if that's your only child and losing him/her is the end of your lineage. Not saying that more kids work as a genetic backup, but I think that for sure that creates a subconscious effect in the parents' risk assessment.

Well, actually you're not totally off. Having more kids (we have three, more on the way hopefully) definitely lowers the pressure on individual ones. But moreover, and more importantly, seeing our friends with large families (5+), the biggest reason the kids can play is that the older siblings are there. When we get together with a few other families of that size, the oldest kids are like 8 - 10 (i.e., old enough to let us know if the littles are in serious trouble). It's really easy to let your kids go play in the woods by themselves if you trust the older ones to run and tell you if something is wrong. Bonus points for having multiple families with the same arrangement so one can tell you something is wrong while the group is still 'supervised'.

My eldest girl (one of the youngest in the group) is convinced that the older kids are still 'kids', but she also naturally listens to them despite having a dominant personality herself. Thus, she gets to have fun with them, while we are happy the kids have some sense in the group.

So from my perspective I think the following is true:

1. Most people have one or two kids. This makes the child density very low. Parents today have to actually work to get their kids around other kids.

2. The way cities are set up makes it hard for kids to interact. While we live in a walkable neighborhood and some of our friends with large families do too, they're unfortunately not well connected except by car, so my wife or I have to make an effort to see them. Luckily, we're good friends with the parents, but otherwise this would make it difficult.

3. Schooling artificially limits the age range kids are exposed to. Obviously, you only get kids your age in your class, but because of (1), even if you got to know their siblings, you still only get one more age, and siblings are likely to not be super far apart.

4. Yes, parents certainly feel more trepidation when they've invested everything into one kid, versus investing everything into multiple kids. I don't see how anyone can honestly doubt this. I don't even think it's callous. Just reality.

I mean, I saw it with my grandparents, who had more kids than my parents did. They were easily taken care of in their old age by the multiple children they had, whereas by choosing a smaller family (not totally their choice), my parents put a much greater burden on my brother and I (mostly me, since I live closer). That's just the truth of the thing.

331c8c71
0 replies
7h56m

I don't think this is the case. Where I am from the number of children is quite the same now compared to when I was kid. Yet the activities that were absolutely normal for the kids back in the day would be a definite deviation from the norm now - all in line with increased "risk aversion".

331c8c71
0 replies
7h56m

I don't think this is the case. Where I am from the number of children is quite the same now compared to when I was kid. Yet the activities that were absolutely normal for the kids back in the day would be a definite deviation from norm now - all in line with increased "risk aversion".

LispSporks22
26 replies
10h51m

At my old school we had glorious two story high steel monkey bars apparatus. At some point they put rubber shavings under it as a safety thing. Several years later, they cut it down to one story. Later they removed the whole thing.

I know exactly what they mean by fear, excitement and risk. It was fun while it was dangerous yet it was extremely rare for a kid to fall off and be hurt.

I fondly remember those steel bars polished by countless human hands like it was yesterday.

I don’t know what’s there now. Probably a big sign that says “Your parents made you a pussy”

vasco
7 replies
10h41m

It's funny because my grandpa called us pussies for playing in man made safe playgrounds instead of in the woods. Every generation will think the next one is coddled.

jansan
2 replies
10h29m

After my 15yo son when hiking with friends to sleep in caves without a tent I do not call him a pussy anymore. It actually made me feel that I forgot to live properly when I way young.

superb_dev
1 replies
9h55m

Did you call him a pussy before??

PH95VuimJjqBqy
0 replies
2h18m

getting called a pussy by your parents is a rite of passage in the US.

/hint: I'm lying.

impossiblefork
2 replies
10h12m

Well, if there's a progressive increase in coddling and formalisation of play, certainly.

But perhaps once these practices begin to be reversed, people will feel that it's terrifying that the children are suddenly independent and not incredibly passive and cowardly.

Tade0
1 replies
10h5m

It's happening already. Many people perceive children as "spoiled" whereas in fact they're simply not as passivated as the previous generation.

impossiblefork
0 replies
9h34m

That's really good to hear, but I hope you go much further than you have imagined, getting to some kind of Norway or Sweden level, or beyond it, to drive us back to where we ought to be.

PH95VuimJjqBqy
0 replies
2h19m

well I grew up running around in the woods, your grandfather isn't wrong, but not everyone has access to them.

simonbarker87
7 replies
9h57m

I chuckle when my parents generation call my generation spoiled and thin skinned because of things like this and participation medals. They are the ones that made those changes because of their feelings, standing there in fifth place getting a medal felt stupid to me as a kid, it was just so my parents could feel happy about something.

mcv
6 replies
8h5m

I loved climbing trees as a kid. I try to get my kids to climb trees, but they refuse. I don't see a lot of kids climbing trees at all anymore.

But I don't think the thing that spoiled them are the safe the playgrounds; it's the constant access to computers, tablets, the internet, Youtube, etc. In my day you had to wait until Wednesday or Saturday to get your cartoon fix. Nowadays there's instant gratification and constant passive entertainment. They're not bored anymore, they have no need to be inventive. I suspect that's a bigger problem than safe playgrounds.

lukan
4 replies
6h24m

"I try to get my kids to climb trees, but they refuse."

Do you yourself still climb trees?

I still do and my small kids do, too.

xandrius
2 replies
6h14m

Exactly, either you do it in front of them and with them or you're just pointing at an arbitrary activity X and say "do it, it's good"

antisthenes
1 replies
46m

It's not it at all.

I don't remember my father ever climbing a single tree, yet I loved it as a kid and was doing it until late teenagehood.

Leading by example is good, but definitely not necessary in all cases.

krisoft
0 replies
30m

Different people also have different personalities. My brother loved climbing trees. Me? Not at all.

We grown up at the same place with access to the same experiences and trees.

Maybe your kids are just not that into the idea of tree climbing as you were, and maybe this doesn't mean anything about generations?

mcv
0 replies
3h9m

I used to. But maybe we should go to the park more. We all rarely get out anymore.

strken
0 replies
5h36m

People tend to cut the lower limbs off trees in parks for the sake of appearances, and to leave shady areas of lawn underneath. If you want to help kids climb your own trees then you can leave a foot or two of each branch as a handhold and make it easier on them.

bombcar
2 replies
52m

The brand-new playgrounds around here are not as obviously dangerous as the bad old days, but they're significantly more "dangerous" than ones from even ten years ago. I think a tide is changing, and there's more research into actual danger and what can be done to reduce serious risks (the "solid foam rubber" flooring you see is much much safer than even significantly deep sand, for example).

UnFleshedOne
1 replies
25m

Those black rubber playgrounds (not sure if that's the same) smell like a chemical factory exhaust on a sunny day (you can also fry some industrial-solvent-laden eggs). Not sure about actual health effect, but experience is far from pleasant...

reddalo
1 replies
10h48m

I completely agree. When I was a child, there was a super fun steel monkey bars in a park near my home. I used to play a lot on it. Fear was surely one of the fun factors.

Then they removed it, because the local council was afraid some kid might get hurt.

It's sad.

techdmn
0 replies
3h7m

Can we stop conflating weakness with women and girls in general, and female genitals in particular?

mechhacker
0 replies
6h16m

I remember falling off of a tall monkey bar thing like that and getting the wind knocked out of me the first time. And a lot of other equipment that I haven't seen in decades.

aspenmayer
0 replies
9h39m

My school had one of those too. We also had swings with 15’ or more of chain. I remember regularly getting nearly parallel to the top bar of that during recess and bailing out and even doing backflips off of it.

There was a particularly dangerous piece of playground equipment that the kids called the “witch’s hat,” which was a 15’ or so tall round central metal pipe maybe 3-4” in diameter, which had a cap on the top that could freely spin. Attached to the cap were maybe 12 10’ chains attached, which linked to a giant octagon or decagon made out of 1-2” or so straight pipe sections which were fitted together in angle brackets. It was essentially an inverted merry go round which you would need a few kids on opposing sides to operate, all running in the same direction. It would cause a kind of wave as the weight distribution shifted as kids were lifted off the round while hanging on, and then your side would come back down and you would hit the ground running while hanging on for dear life.

Some kid flew off and broke their collarbone and they ended up soft-banning it except when the teachers weren’t looking, and eventually they decommissioned it. It was a sad day on the playground when that happened.

alistairSH
0 replies
1h28m

HA! First week of 5h grade at a new school, my son decided to be a "badass" and do a flip off the monkey bars, over the head of a friend. He landed badly and broke his forearm (which required a rod inserted surgically to stabilize).

He learned his lesson!

And we didn't sue, because kids can be dumbasses and will always find ways to hurt themselves. If he wasn't jumping off a 5' tall jungle gym, he'd be doing backflips out of swings or jumping from tree to tree or something else that doesn't make any sense to adults with fully developed brains.

Animats
26 replies
12h23m

And a pony.

I've been around horse barns for many years. Rode today. It's not a kids thing any more. Most of the riders are not only adults, but older adults. Few kids take riding lessons. The old ponies are under-used.

Fifteen years ago, the ponies were usually being ridden or groomed by girls in their early teens. We used to see groups of kids go out on the trails unsupervised. That was normal. The kids would go out for an hour or so. Nobody does that any more.

Now, if there's a kid around, it's usually because the parent is a horse person. Barns that teach kids are very organized. Kids are never out of sight of an adult. Usually the parents sit there and watch.

It's sad. Kids that grow up around horses tend not to have trouble with bullies. After you're used to dealing with half-ton, somewhat pushy animals with huge teeth and steel-shod hooves, big guys just don't look that big.

abyssin
11 replies
10h29m

A cheaper and more environmental-friendly alternative is a bicycle.

Tade0
6 replies
10h2m

Defeats the purpose of having a pony.

Riding is like 1/4 of the whole time spent with the animal.

seszett
2 replies
9h13m

That can be true of bicycles as well to be honest.

HPsquared
1 replies
9h2m

Not the way I treat my bicycle..

mcv
0 replies
7h59m

I just discovered moss growing on my bike. I use it a lot, but I clearly never clean it.

RoyalHenOil
1 replies
9h17m

I did some horseback riding when I was a Girl Scout, and I quickly found that I actually preferred to be on my own feet and interacting with the horse rather than on its back. All of my best and most vivid memories from that time are of petting and grooming horses, not riding them. Riding feels so impersonal.

Tade0
0 replies
5h19m

A friend of mine just yesterday had to say goodbye to a horse she's been taking care of for the past 10 years.

I can't really say "her horse" as he wasn't the type that would listen to commands.

It's really nothing like having an inanimate object, like a bicycle.

mcv
0 replies
7h59m

Like kids these days have that kind of time in between all the Youtube watching.

briandear
3 replies
8h44m

Tires, metals, lubricants, plastics.. How is a bike more environmentally friendly? Many bikes are made in China, so you have shipping and transport as well. Have you ever visited a bike factory in China? How about a tire factory? A horse ranch is infinitely more environmentally friendly.

spacebanana7
2 replies
6h43m

Large animals have substantial carbon emissions.

A horse emits an average of two tonnes of carbon emissions a year [1], comparable to that of a car [2].

The full picture gets complicated when you account for vehicle fuel, horse diet, age of vehicle/horse, land use, storage etc. But in general it's fair to say that horses are broadly similar to cars in carbon impact.

Compare both with pedal bicycles, where impacts are effectively negligible [3]

[1] https://www.yourhorse.co.uk/news/agria-hoofprint-calculator/ [2] https://www.ageco.co.uk/useful-articles/car/what-are-the-co2... [3] https://keith.seas.harvard.edu/blog/climate-impacts-biking-v...

postalrat
1 replies
5h41m

What are we saving the planet for if not for the things living on it?

abyssin
0 replies
4h56m

For the human beings. Life itself isn't threatened by climate change.

yourusername
5 replies
9h0m

Maybe your view is a bit coloured by your own experience? In my view riding ponies or horses as a hobby is something that was always financially out of reach for 95% of the population. It's not as normal hobby any more than racing carts is.

sersi
3 replies
8h48m

It depends on the region you were born in. I was born in the country side of normandy where there's plenty of horse breeders. Some primary schools there will bring the kids once a week to do horse riding and seeing horses is somewhat common (plus there was always at least one kid whose parent bred horse in the class who'd invite his classmates to see the horses).

Outside of regions with horse culture, it's definitely a rich man's hobby.

mcv
2 replies
7h55m

My brother in law has a farm, and his daughters both ride horses. One a bit more fanatically than the other; she's in college now and I think she actually owns her own horse, which is a bit of a problem when you're living in student housing. They're not rich by any means, so I suspect it's a matter of priorities.

tiptup300
1 replies
5h38m

If we're talking about comparison of someone lets say making 5 dollars more an hour then minimum wage in pa, would you describe that person as "not rich by any means"?

PH95VuimJjqBqy
0 replies
1h59m

I grew up poor and rode horses, as others have said it's a matter of where you live.

If you live in the countryside it's not a big deal, if you live in the middle of a city or suburban area it becomes more expensive.

cultofmetatron
5 replies
11h18m

Kids that grow up around horses tend not to have trouble with bullies.

adding this to my list of thing to look into if I ever have a daiughter.

CraigJPerry
3 replies
10h40m

I wouldn’t bother. It’s rose tinted specs at work. Girls on the horse yard bully each other just like they do in every other arena. Source: I had a horse when I was a teenager.

whatshisface
2 replies
10h1m

The OP was painting an incomplete picture, the complete horse based solution to bullying involves plate mail and polearms.

josefx
0 replies
9h2m

So they can push the kid over and it ends up stuck lying on its back like a turtle?

duggan
0 replies
8h46m

I’m afraid this is also a case of ochre-tinted helm — girls will bully each other even if their liege lord fully equips them.

solumunus
0 replies
6h49m

Really? It seems obviously complete nonsense to me.

blueflow
0 replies
6h12m

Horse girls are disappearing at similar rates like car guys. It seems that screen-related activities are less work while giving similar levels of fulfillment.

achenet
0 replies
10h12m

I know a girl who did a lot of horse riding from a rather young age, even had her own horse, and she was bullied a lot as a kid.

WarOnPrivacy
23 replies
12h31m

As much as I contributed to my kids growing up under a ceaseless adult presence, I was a bad father. In doing this I deprived them of irreplaceable opportunities to learn self-actuation, learn social problem-solving and earn confidence.

As far as I acted on a baseless fear that they were at meaningful risk of stranger kidnapping, I was a stupid father. That's mostly a different kind of bad father but whatever.

forgetfreeman
17 replies
12h9m

Learn social problem solving with who? There are -no- unsupervised children anymore, anywhere. No sense in kicking yourself, there are no opportunities for the kind of play older generations engaged in available to kids these days.

bowsamic
10 replies
12h0m

That’s just plainly false. In my city (Hamburg) I see 8 year olds taking the public transport alone and playing in the streets (no ones with cars) without supervision. I think you extrapolated too far

twojobsoneboss
9 replies
11h54m

Europe is different than the US. Childhood is still much more healthy there

goatlover
6 replies
11h40m

Wonder if it has anything to do with the lack of Satanic Panic in the late 20th century. Also, the oversized number of well-known serial killers from around that time in the US.

forgetfreeman
4 replies
11h3m

I doubt it on both counts. People doing weird awful shit is hardly a modern phenomenon and yet prior generations felt no particular need to guard their children around the clock.

bowsamic
3 replies
10h51m

Probably because it wasn’t really possible before. Now there is a lot of technology making that easy. One of Apple’s big use cases that they sell is the ability to streamline being an overprotective parent

forgetfreeman
1 replies
8h51m

stares in child labor I feel like you never spent any time listening to your great grandparents talk about growing up.

bowsamic
0 replies
8h3m

I've never met my great grandparents, so no.

PeterisP
0 replies
7h51m

On the other hand, I feel it has been an enabler - the ability to track their phone if they aren't back home when they're supposed to probably allowed me to let my kids go unsupervised to various activities at least a year or two earlier than I would otherwise have; the phone tracking ability meant that they could go to sports practice at the other side of the city on their own with bikes or public transport (depending on season) instead of being "delivered" and supervised by me or the spouse.

twojobsoneboss
0 replies
2h18m

Whatever it was, they really screwed it up for all of us. Parenting is so much harder than it needs to be and children are so much less balanced as a result. They share a big blame for the birth rate decline.

bowsamic
0 replies
11h6m

Indeed, hence the person I’m replying to shouldn’t have said everywhere

asdff
0 replies
11h6m

There's a whole spectrum to it in the US. I still see pretty young looking skater kids hitting their spots during class time in the urban area where I live. I'm sure in rural parts kids must be up to similar fun with mountain or dirt bikes too.

brewdad
5 replies
11h50m

Not true. Probably 10 years ago my kid and two friends played in each other’s yards mostly unsupervised. Only led to one ER visit with a scratched cornea (my kid). But yeah, mostly there are always parent(s) around. 40 years ago I’d disappear for hours with my friends every day in the summer. That doesn’t happen much today.

forgetfreeman
3 replies
10h56m

Not true? Ok, when was the last time you saw a collection of kid-sized bicycles outside the local grocery store, convenience store, or local blue plate joint, with a gaggle of obviously unsupervised kids inside? For that matter when was the last time you saw a group of obviously unsupervised kids anywhere? It's telling that you think a couple kids hanging out in their own yards clears the bar here. If I were to hand my 11 year old a hundred bucks and tell him to be back at sunset how long do you recon it would take before I got a phone call or a visit from the police?

defrost
2 replies
10h45m

when was the last time you saw a collection of kid-sized bicycles outside the local grocery store,

Every school day after three in the afternoon - so, half an hour ago (it being 3:30 pm here in Australia GMT+8).

I can't speak to your 11 year old, but I'm happy leaving my grandkids with money .. typically I've let them (and my kids when younger, nieces, nephews, et al) pull molten glass from a furnace from 5 onwards (with half an eye watching from not too far away), relatively unsupervised after they've left primary school.

First year high school is typically 12 or so (IIRC).

Chainsaws, angle grinders, etc. are definitely a high school thing, as is riding bikes to the beach and free diving with a gidgee .. as long as they bring back fish.

forgetfreeman
1 replies
8h52m

As covered elsewhere in this thread this is a uniquely American issue. Sit down, we know we have a problem.

defrost
0 replies
6h1m

If it's alright with you, and even if not, I'll just keep right on as is.

Maybe you might want to unseat yourself and attend to your problems before telling others what to do. Cheers.

dudul
0 replies
6h4m

Is playing in your own yard really "unsupervised"? Similarly to you, when I was a kid (in the 90s), I would leave home on my bike after breakfast and come back before dinner. I was maybe ~10yo. Now that was unsupervised.

dclowd9901
2 replies
11h25m

That second one, god damn it grinds my gears. For some reason, here in Phoenix, we had a constant gossipy murmur about kids getting stolen out of Target parking lots right out if their parents carts or even cars. No news stories, but you’d always hear some (white) woman claim someone “almost” kidnapped their friend’s kid just the other day. When you dig even slightly deeper, it sounds more like someone of color just happened to be walking by as they loaded up their kid in their car.

The kidnapping thing doesn’t happen like that. Not in the US. It happens to vulnerable families at the border who pay unscrupulous coyotes to bring them over.

raverbashing
1 replies
10h31m

Might ask how much of these "almost kidnappings" are just another Karen with main character syndrome mindless thinking any kid around them are their kid

dclowd9901
0 replies
1h58m

In the range of 99.99% I’d wager.

oschvr
1 replies
12h26m

First time father here and curious about your comment.

Can you elaborate on what was are your grounds for labeling yourself as a bad father?

WarOnPrivacy
0 replies
12h20m

Can you elaborate on what was are your grounds for labeling yourself as a bad father?

I mostly label myself a father. There would always have been bad parts but these stand out. They're bad fathering.

As far as grounds for my complaint, my children needed a steady diet of adult free hours. I mostly failed to recognize it, prioritize it and act accordingly.

dhfbshfbu4u3
7 replies
6h37m

I grew up in the 70s and we spent most of our time outside because we weren’t allowed inside or our parents were at work. Everything was unsupervised and bit like Lord of the Flies, but we survived. I have a lot of memories of riding my bike, alone, pretty much anywhere I wanted in the city.

Seems great, and I think most of us enjoyed it, but the kids who really got ahead in life stayed inside studying.

Fast forward several decades, I raised some kids of my own and by and large we let them have a lot of a fun. That said, the stakes are so much higher these days that it is impractical to give kids total freedom. The long-term costs and lost opportunity is just way too high.

mb7733
3 replies
6h19m

That said, the stakes are so much higher these days that it is impractical to give kids total freedom. The long-term costs and lost opportunity is just way too high.

I'm curious, could you expand on this? In what ways are the stakes higher?

dhfbshfbu4u3
2 replies
2h17m

Sure. The main thing is getting into college. In recent years, it has become incredibly competitive. Kids with SATs above say 1525 with above 4.0GPA and plenty of APs are ending up in their 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th choice schools. There is very low margin for error and the actual costs can be quite significant when you take into account the slip in position.

ryandrake
1 replies
51m

Plus, back then it wasn't as bimodal as today. A students tended to move on to good universities and then great jobs. B students would go to an OK state school and get a decent office job. C students could maybe go to community college or learn a trade and have a decent go at the middle class. D students could at least shape themselves up and learn a trade or join the military and have a remote shot at earning a living.

Now, there are pretty much two groups: 1. the top-top-top of both your class and your entire region, with above a 4.0GPA, with all the expected community service and extracurriculars, and so on, who end up in elite schools and prestigious careers, and 2. everyone else, who end up scrapping with each other over the lower-and-lower paying jobs and more tenuous future. There's no middle anymore.

kjkjadksj
0 replies
25m

On the other hand its probably better in the trades today than 25 years ago. I have met a lot of early 20 year old tradespeople in recent years. Many have all the toys you would not expect by their mid 20s like a newer car and property. Unions seem much stronger today as well.

Loughla
2 replies
6h25m

and lost opportunity is just way too high.

I think this is the reason for the childhood/teen mental health epidemic.

If you're not optimizing your child's life, they won't be competitive for jobs or college or whatever in the future.

It's exhausting.

dhfbshfbu4u3
1 replies
2h16m

Pretty much. We sought out a balance and by and large our kids are happier than their peers. However, they also paid the price when it came to school choice, scholarships, and the downstream opportunities that flow from the relentless pursuit of top honors. It is insane.

Apocryphon
0 replies
1h52m

Any details on how that went? It’s certainly that secondary education is very competitive these days.

chomp
7 replies
18h27m

I don’t disagree that children need to engage in risky behavior, but the claim that it needs to be unsupervised and then viewing it through the lens of yesteryear is a combination of survivor bias and nostalgia. Children pre-1990s were also a lot more likely to have less present parents across the board, and there’s a lot of strings attached to the unsupervised play those children got. I agree unsupervised play is important, I let our kids play by themselves all the time, it’s very important for learning conflict resolution. But make room in your argument also for having a strong and engaged presence in their lives.

forgetfreeman
1 replies
12h6m

Strings? You over there pretending the latchkey generation didn't happen or something? Waking up to an empty house with $5 and a note on the kitchen table was hardly remarkable bitd. The entire point of the exercise is for there to be -no- presence, forcing kids to work through stuff on their own.

bcrosby95
0 replies
10h46m

Latchkey is a historical anomaly due to atomic families transitioning into dual income households leaving no adults at home and not knowing what to do with their kids. When my mother grew up there was always an adult at home - her mom. Same with her parents. Same with my mother-in-law.

You also don't have to go too far back, just 150 years, to when children were largely used for labor. Childhood itself is a relatively new invention.

The idea that kids sat around doing nothing but getting in trouble with other kids all day is just wrong.

MisterBastahrd
1 replies
11h26m

Depends on what you mean.

If you are within earshot of your children, you are not "letting them play by themselves." You are supervising their play from a distance. They are not the same. Know why bullies have it so easy nowadays? Because once upon a time, a bully was usually a kid who came from an abusive household and they were just demonstrating what they learned at home. Eventually, they'd end up getting their asses kicked by a kid who had the means and background to defend himself, and they'd learn something from it.

Today, the world is full of little Eric Cartman wannabes: little asshole kids whose parents hover around them and will defend them to the ends of the Earth. It's screwed up child socialization and it's ruined childhood education because teachers with three degrees would rather do anything than take abuse from those bad kids and their pathetic, enabling parents.

rightbyte
0 replies
9h7m

Eric Cartman's mother does not defend just him though. She defends all sides and is forgiving.

Kyle's mother do though. But Kyle is not an asshole.

rightbyte
0 replies
8h54m

Ye I agree. I think "safe playgrounds" is just a scapegoat and a straw man.

You don't learn much from accidents. Anything that is climbable is dangerous enought. You don't need to add rocks on the ground, to use another strawman.

WarOnPrivacy
0 replies
12h40m

viewing it through the lens of yesteryear

Given that those critical adult-free hours were the norm ~throughout human history, I think the year part of yesteryear sells it short.

How about Yesterever?

15457345234
0 replies
12h33m

survivor bias

Using that phrase is... 80s childhoods weren't some sort of trial by fire threshing machine, dude. By and large everybody survived. Children being lost to quicksand or stumbling across gangs of counterfeiters holed up in abandoned mills who black-bagged them is a thing that happened in Scooby Doo and The Hardy Boys, not real life.

This elides the main issue; children need to be left to play unsupervised as the machiavellian instigator types only reveal themselves when nobody's watching. It isn't so much about letting the children take risks as it is about figuring out who's always present when something odd and painful happens to somebody else.

ChiMan
7 replies
12h9m

Sounds like sports are good for kids, and contact sports are good for boys. Who knew?

scraplab
6 replies
11h53m

Did you read the article? It specially argues for unstructured play and freedom, and against structured play, such as organised sports.

AlbertCory
2 replies
11h42m

"sports" does not imply "organization, with adults."

I never played any organized football, but I played a ton of informal touch football, and very occasionally tackle.

Same with most baseball: a bunch of us kids got together and played. In most of the world, it's football ("soccer" as Americans call it).

Loughla
1 replies
6h14m

Yes, it does. In the US, in today's middle class society, sports means structured, competitive play organized by adults.

Pick up games are dead for vast, vast portions of the country.

AlbertCory
0 replies
1h45m

I'm sorry, you're totally wrong. I walk past some basketball courts every day, and there are always games going on. At the middle school, the kids play volleyball, and also spike ball:

https://www.wikihow.com/Play-Spikeball

I also occasionally see pickup touch football games, and of course soccer. Baseball: maybe you're right, only adults play that anymore.

And let's not forget pickleball. Contrary to the stereotype of its being an elderly sport, go look at a court sometime: people of all ages play it.

MisterBastahrd
1 replies
11h23m

Well, I'm glad I didn't read it, because a child should have both unstructured play, fully free of adult supervision AND structured play to learn the ins and outs of working in structured rule-based groups while pursuing something they enjoy.

RoyalHenOil
0 replies
8h33m

It depends on the kid.

When I was a kid, I hated structured play to the extent that I would rather not play at all. That even applied to video games; I wanted them to be as open and free as possible, with many ways for me to solve problems (and equally many ways to fail to solve problems). Most games were unplayable to me.

I think this is because I was (and still am) very diligent by nature. I was extremely dutiful and obedient, always did schoolwork to the best of my ability, etc. Playtime was my desperately needed creative outlet, where I could just try things unplanned and discover what I was capable of.

My parents did try to introduce me to some structured activities, but when I didn't click with any of them, they stopped pushing them. Looking back as an adult, I think that was 100% the right call.

Even better, they did not assume my little sister would be like me. They introduced her to structured activities even after I had long left them behind, and she took to them in a way I never did. She was naturally disorganized, basically my opposite, and I think these activities gave her some much-needed balance (in much the same way that unstructured play did for me).

drchiu
6 replies
8h51m

Let’s not forget the role of lawyers and the general increasing litigious nature of society.

Things are made “safe” because there is now always a risk of getting sued when stuff happens.

jerf
3 replies
3h14m

This is the core problem. It doesn't matter if you convince Mom & Dad & the kids to play risky if the primary "risk" is getting picked up by the police and having your family fed into the bureaucratic grinder of Child Protective Services. Society isn't just encouraging the removal of risky play, it is enforcing it. Until the police are trained to get a call to a child riding their bike down the road by themselves and berate the person who called them and not issue even a token warning to the kid or parents, there will be no change.

Apocryphon
2 replies
2h40m

Not to deny that this is an increasingly litigious society, but if the bureaucracy is so sprawling, surely it gets to a level where it's too stuffed with requests to be able to respond to every triviality, no?

jerf
0 replies
2h1m

It doesn't work that way, because bureaucracies do not have to operate on a first-come, first-serve basis. Across the time span of years, anyone can find themselves part of a politically-targeted group and find their case jumps the queue. I prefer to avoid that anti-lottery ticket if I can.

dagw
0 replies
2h33m

Feeding people into the bureaucracy machine is quick, easy and looks good on your KPIs, so that is where the focus is. Helping people get out of the bureaucracy is hard and time consuming, so that mostly gets ignored. Being stuck in limbo for years with a pending CPS case would be shattering to most people, even if nothing concrete ends up happening.

euroderf
0 replies
8h26m

This is the four hundred pound gorilla in the room.

Loughla
0 replies
6h17m

This is the root cause. 150%. At least for the US.

stephc_int13
5 replies
12h30m

It turns out this is a tradeoff, the cost of this extra safety is mental health issues later in life.

WarOnPrivacy
3 replies
12h25m

the cost of this extra safety is mental health issues later in life.

This is so true it could be physics.

achenet
1 replies
10h9m

disagree. Many other factors.

For example, I believe the current rise in mental health issues is due to smartphone use. But I admit that's only a theory.

simonbarker87
0 replies
9h54m

Could increased smart phone use be because the outside world has been sanitised so much for these kids that they have literally nothing else to do?

kelseyfrog
0 replies
12h7m

I'm happy with admitting that it's something that would take an RCT to prove to me and that it's also unethical to perform one. it's essentially unknowable. Some people are uncomfortable with that.

We dismiss nutrition studies with more evidence. The standard of evidence doesn't chabge just because we want it to be true.

demondemidi
0 replies
11h32m

Or you’re just repeating the latest Oprah-like trope that’s plastered all over the tabloids.

gilbetron
2 replies
3h37m

Having grown up in the 70s and 80s, and who is just finishing up raising a kid in the 2010s/2020s (he's 15), I think I have some nuance on this view. While I worry about the lower amount of unstructured play my son had, he did have tons of structured/semi-structured play that I would have loved. Sure, I ran around the woods, but he was able to go on all sorts of adventures through various camps that I never got to do. I mean, I guess being bored out of my fucking mind most of the summer and doing stupid shit was helpful, but it wasn't some pinnacle of education. My son at age 11 took at digital media camp thing and walked around interviewing people at different locations and making little videos. That was pretty cool and seems kind of educational.

Plus, I know at least 3 people that were kids when I was a kid, within several years, that are now disabled adults because of that unstructured play. Two broke their necks, one broke so many bones they were in a wheelchair for several years. I know probably half a dozen kids that were hit by cars in some form. Several kids dead by drunk driving. So that unstructured play isn't without cost.

There are other tradeoffs, too. I know several kids that are raised more unstructured because of their specific situation, and they have a lot of social and physical confidence, but they are also kinda dumb. Like they lack intellectual curiosity. Anecdotal, I know, but I just don't think things are as clear as they make it out to be.

My son's playgrounds were still fairly dangerous, so I think the pendulum has started swinging back. When he was 6-9 or so, his favorite two playground stuctures were a 15' tall climbing tower, and the old school metal merri-go-round thing. Oh, and one elementary school had two huge play structures made of wood with all kinds of tunnels and nooks and crannies, he had tons of fun with that with his friends.

What I mostly missed with him is his ability to just go outside and play with a bunch of kids - there is a negative feedback loop where even if you want your kid to do that, there are no other kids out there in many places. Plus there are just not many interesting "third spaces" anymore that are fun for kids but also ok for them to be kids.

playingonline
1 replies
2h6m

I wonder if the 3rd spaces are moving online.

This thread notes the decline of horse girls and car guys - (it's gender roles too, but) maybe everything is just online now. Idk if toontown or minecraft or whatever perfectly replaces playing on a playground, but maybe? There is a sort of exploration, maybe not the same. There is a perception of in game risk without the risk of physical injury, but also without physical fitness benefits.

kjkjadksj
0 replies
17m

If thats the case then thats a tragedy. Third places online usually have like only a couple good years at best before they suffer from eternal summer or their owners enshittify the platform or shut down the game servers.

dclowd9901
2 replies
11h32m

Think back to your favorite childhood play memory. Where were you? What were you doing? Was there an adult supervising you?

I have two memories

1) I was playing in my grandfather’s pipe yard with my cousins. Lots of heavy equipment and stuff that was precariously stacked. Very easily could have ended up in a situation were something fell on me and killed me. Instead, I just ran headlong into a rusty pipe and nearly broke my nose.

2) I was in my early teens riding a 3 wheeled ATV. I was going too fast and went into a wash and flipped the machine over me. I didn’t kill myself. Didn’t even get seriously hurt, but easily could have.

I was incredibly lucky to come out of both of those experiences relatively unscathed. It’s not really a tough calculus thinking “well, my daughter doesn’t have an eye anymore, but at least she was having fun!”

I instead encourage my kids to have fun in activities that _feel_ risky but where the chance of life altering injury is low. Like walking on a high brick fence or jumping from a high point into a big deep body of water.

Anyway, as a parent I’m so fucking tired of people trying to tell me how to raise a kid.

calvinmorrison
1 replies
10h10m

Climbing at the top of very tall trees. At age 5 or 6. Looks like the tree is still there on Google maps

60 S Church St https://maps.app.goo.gl/niB4443VK65M8LPB6

GeoAtreides
0 replies
5h19m

To my European eye that is a very pretty town; it feels so uniquely american. Is it safe? is it nice living there?

bjackman
2 replies
9h59m

It's not exactly what the article is talking about but: I have a 2 year old niece. Her family have an attitude of "let her learn for herself" that I've found pretty interesting. They keep a very close eye on her and try to warn her verbally and with demonstrations but don't really stop her from doing anything.

So instead of physically separating her from a hot kettle they just go "it's very hot!" and demonstrate by touching it carefully and then pulling their hand away. They let her play with matches.

She could pick up on these cues long before she could understand words. But it does look exhausting. And there have been some moments (once she was trotting around holding scissors pointing up in the air) where I've thought "no that's too risky and no amount of careful supervision can prevent injury here". She has also burned herself, but only once.

So overall I am pretty impressed, at least in principle, and if I have kids I'll definitely endeavour to try and curb my overprotective instincts.

lm2s
0 replies
8h56m

Another way to teach them about hot things is to have something that is uncomfortably hot but won't burn if you touch it for a few seconds*, warn them that it's hot and remove the fingers quickly but let them touch it anyway. They won't burn themselves but will understand what is hot and will understand when you tell them that it's hot.

The side effect of this, is that then they might be scared of things that are only slightly hot. But that's something easier and less risky to deal with IMO and they'll eventually understand that there's different levels.

*babies/toddlers have a skin that is a lot more sensitive, so this should be taken into consideration.

cpursley
0 replies
9h4m

This is exactly what we do with our toddler (tell her it’s hot, sharp, etc - mimic a painful reaction). It’s worked really well. She’s only two and will even tell us to “be careful papa, it’s hot” etc).

Kids are smart, if you treat them like little adults instead of little helpless goo goo ga ga babies - they will generally pick up on things. Which actually makes it easier on the parents.

1970-01-01
2 replies
2h36m

I'll go out on a limb and say SAE Level 5 (full self-driving) is going to solve this problem. Imagine a world where a group of children has regained all the safety of traveling anywhere their parents will let them. It will reset our current understanding of parenting to where it was 30 years ago.

tokai
1 replies
2h33m

30 years ago is full Satanic Panic and general hysteria over please-think-of-the-children. Not at all a time we want parenting to return to.

1970-01-01
0 replies
2h28m

That was very much a news media thing. Many parents rightfully ignored it as such.

cyco130
1 replies
7h45m

When I was a kid (~10 yo), mothers of younger (~4 yo) kids would send them to the grocery store a few blocks away and ask us to follow them in secret to make sure they didn't get lost or run under a car or anything. This way they could build confidence in relative safety.

I believe it's now illegal in some jurisdictions.

xandrius
0 replies
6h7m

I'm sad this is the current state of affairs but I'm glad they (and you) had the chance to grow up like that.

aaron695
1 replies
12h14m

What kids are dying from today are mainly car crashes and suicides, not playing outside unsupervised with friends

Injury-related deaths are at an all-time low in most Western nations.

To a normal person this is proof helicopter parenting is working.

Two practical choices

  1. Have more kids again so they are more disposable. This is a big part of the change. This will happen with UBI. If UBI is a while away, weak kids are here to stay. 

  2. They don't normally talk about pretense of risk and independence. 

  They mention heights. This can be done safely. I'm really scared to climb the trees I used to as a kid, part is fear of heights growing with age the other is common sense.  But why not have 'safe' climbing frame that go to 50+ meters?  

  This is really hard for most things... How do you blow up gas cylinders with a thrill and be safe? Mixing explosive material that's a thrill, again hard to do safely. The fun is not being supervised and in a lab. Blowing off fingers.... not the end of the world. Maybe when eyesight and hearing is restorable it'd be fine again. Killing animals is another one no one openly talks about but is important, it's why biology is failing they are all imposers who want to cuddle a lion, not cut a frog open to see how it works.

ativzzz
0 replies
3h47m

This will happen with UBI

Dunno why you think more prosperity leads to more children when it's almost always the other way around. Poorer, less educated people have more kids. Once a society develops economically, they have less kids. This is a worldwide phenomenon.

UBI will free you from having to work shitty jobs. You think people will spend their newfound time raising kids instead? Doubt

watwut
0 replies
11h2m

My big problem with these articles is that they invariably list activities that are NOT risky or dangerous. And what they end up doing is just ramping up sense of danger about non dangerous behavior. If you frame reasonable and safe activities as risk taking, then well, people will conclude those activities are risky.

And second issue is that they do NOT engage with other host of issues that limit outside play. For example, unsupervised playing kids are annoying to many unrelated adults - and adults who strongly dislike kids and want to exclude them from everywhere are very common. Or, simple fact that just meeting friends often requires in advance agreed upon play date and a drive by car. Or, simple fact that before you was bored in your room and outside had things to do, nowdays you have fun stuff at home (computer, tablet, phone) and outside has not much to do above the age of 7.

Half of this feels like fighting fear by adding new dangers and threats to the equation. Hey, not only you need to add risk, if you dont your kid will have serious mental health issues. Hey, lets worry simultaneously about risk taking while doing safe activities while also worrying they dont take enough risk.

m3kw9
0 replies
1h16m

i think before 10, you limit their risk such as walking out by themselves because they are either too short for cars to see in some blind spots or not have developed enough awareness of the world yet.

Other than that let them fall a few times and stuff in controlled manner and they get better at risk assessment. Otherwise they default to being risk adverse because you’ve been always telling them everything is risky

lucasRW
0 replies
5h28m

Quite a risky position in a society where the dominant view is the one for "safe-spaces" and "not being offended"...

lqet
0 replies
6h46m

As a parent, I have found that raising a child without risk, fear and the occasional smaller painful accident is not possible. My daughter is 4, and we can not convince her that something she does is dangerous until she has empirically proven it. Exceptions are obvious things where it is clear that you will die or you "will become a skeleton" (crossing the road without looking, playing around train tracks, playing with electricity).

Examples:

"Don't sit on the backrest of that chair, it will topple over". "No, that's not true at all, you're wrong!!!" 5 minutes later: Crash. Quiet. Cry. Never done again.

"You cannot build bridges out of sofa cushions between the sofa and the coffee table, it won't support you". "No! I am small! It will hold!" 5 minutes later: Crash. Quiet. Cry. Never done again.

On bicycle: "Drive slower, you have to break!". "No, I like it fast! I cannot fall, my tires are big!" Seconds later: Crash against fence. Quiet. Cry. Now she drives carefully.

In winter: "Be careful on that ice!". "But my new shoes have rubber, dad, they won't slip, don't you know that?!?" Seconds later: Slip. Bamm. Quiet. Cry. Now she knows rubber soles slip on ice.

As long as there is no risk of a serious, life-threatening accident, I have become pretty relaxed. I remember that I constantly had scraped knees and bruises as a child. When I was 7, my grandparents regularly send me to a gas station nearby to buy the paper, and my mother would send me to the supermarket with my 4 year old brother to get groceries. I walked to kindergarten by myself when I was 5.

jp42
0 replies
1h59m

I lived in small village in India. When I was a kid (6+ yo) the only time I was at home is to eat & sleep. Parents were not watching us at all. Me and my friends used to go wherever we want to go miles away from village & somehow used to come back by lunch time or dinner time. I miss those days.

ineedasername
0 replies
4h43m

I think the author’s points here are only their strongest when mentioning the lack of unstructured play and overall reduction in play time & leisure as a whole.

It’s weakest when it speaks about “risky” play, where the author seems to focus on the excitement & fear etc. that comes from physically risky play. I don’t think physical risk should be a requirement for a robustly healthy childhood play experience. From the article, bemoaning the lack of play in abandoned locations seems fairly absurd, though again some other points are well taken.

I will note one interesting trend that may partially be a product of this desire &/or need for risky play, which is the recent popularity of much more elaborate & diverse videogames in the “sandbox survival crafting” genre. These for me actually do seem to evoke a similar feel to the childhood sense of exploration and creative play. I’m not necessarily proposing these as a solution to what we had decades ago but it may be that just as the “safety” movement didn’t happen overnight, perhaps cultural solutions to fill these same needs will take a bit more time as well.

hoseja
0 replies
2h29m

Civilizational schoolmarmism must be stopped.

gampleman
0 replies
6h31m

I am very sympathetic to this (to the extent that my wife thinks I am borderline irresponsible).

That said, I think the argument about how fears are misplaced since now is the most safe time to be a kid is bad.

And it is widely believed that the world is no longer a safe place for children to play in. Yet statistics show that it has never been a safer time to be a child. Injury-related deaths are at an all-time low in most Western nations. In the US, deaths from unintentional injuries fell by 73% for boys and 85% for girls between 1973 and 2010. This misperception of risk creates the parental paradox.

This doesn't make much sense. Parents have mass migrated to a different style of parenting. In the same period life has gotten much safer for children. Therefore we should revert to the older style of parenting and not be afraid that the risks will return?

I think this cause is really hurting itself with this kind of weak argument.

elevatedastalt
0 replies
51m

A lot of this also seems a result of litigious culture and liability releases and waivers in everything?

Also it's hard not being risk-averse when you have only one child you can barely afford to raise since it costs 50-100K a year.

circlefavshape
0 replies
4h36m

I still need excitement, and I'm 52

ChrisArchitect
0 replies
12h39m

As linked in this piece, Related from a month ago:

Balancing Outdoor Risky Play and Injury Prevention in Childhood Development

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39139540

99_00
0 replies
29m

Children Need Risk, Fear, and Excitement in Play

I don't see research or data to back this up in the article.

It seems that the conclusion that "Children Need Risk, Fear, and Excitement in Play" is based on the authors personal interpretation of her research around play and development, rather than actual data and experimentation on risk, fear, excitement in play.

It would also be helpful to define 'need'.

Overall, the ideas in the article seems bypass the reader's critical thinking by appealing to "back in my day", and "kids these days" attitudes and feelings.