Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program

all that's broken at the moment in our end-stage capitalist societies

That's a weird way to spell "the most prosperous time/space ever, where borderline poor people live like kings 200 years ago, and there are fewer and fewer poor people as time goes on and poverty threshold goes up".

Late stage capitalism is still better than the late stage socialism in North Korea.

Never forget that American Exceptionalism relies on comparing itself to the most mismanaged places in the world, ignoring the existence of developed nations entirely

We uniquely have the resources to be better and more advanced and create a more productive society with those resources, and merely lack the consensus to do so. There is no need to compare ourselves to anyone else to rationalize our incompetencies, consensus failures, or to spearhead development goals.

False dichotomy promoted by American oligarchs.

North Korea isn't an alternative to technofeudalism we have now, let alone the only alternative.

"Even with all the problems in the West, with all that's broken at the moment in our end-stage capitalist societies, never forget that the alternative, in almost all instances, is pure terror."

Our goal should be getting further and further away from "pure terror" year after year. Instead we have politicians fucking with our way of life, restricting more and more freedoms and telling us that the alternative is North Korea.

never forget that the alternative, in almost all instances

Well, one shitty alternative alternative anyway

Don't they first need to get along with their neighbors to the South?

? Containment on imperial systems was removed. Russia invaded Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine. China colonized Hong Kong, uighurs, north Korea. Iran colonized Iraq, Yemen, Syria. Your liberal experiments have successfully brought back the world of 1910. And yet you endorse them..

The argument in favor of this is that the current tensions are largely economic, and when the North Korean citizens can benefit from something closer full participation in world trade, they will be better off. Iran is in a similar situation and we had started down this path, only to be completely undone and set back 20 years by trump.

The sanctions are abusive, but what is the alternative? To allow a kingdom that is so pro-depravity to subsist unmolested?

And, is it a matter of sanctions, or national policy that causes the most pain? We don’t have a lot of data, but we have some: that I know of, there are three countries in the world with extensive sanctions. One of them, Russia, hasn’t been communist in three decades. I heard that there is political repression there, but despite the sanctions, not starvation or even economic hardship.

The other two countries, Cuba and North Korea, are still communist. North Korea is not doing well. And Cuba is hanging from a thread; citizens survive thanks to direct support from their expats to the families at home, but the country’s infrastructure is ruined. In terms of modern commodities, 19th century Europe had way less access to trade than sanctioned Cuba, and yet made better roads and enjoyed better postal services and a much vibrant financial sector.

It's time for the US to end the sanctions on North Korea. The abuse workers face is a straight line result from the fact that virtually all aspects of their economy are under total embargo.

Come on. Their workers are abused because North Korea is a totalitarian dictatorship, not because of sanctions.

If sanctions have any contribution, it's pushing the abuse outside of North Korea, which makes it more visible and possible to investigate.

Dictatorships should be starved out so they don't pose a threat to the rest of us.

Expecting them to behave by sending them money is a failed theory.

EU here, not US. I don't want my money to fund the killings of our Ukrainian friends.

Giving the state financial incentives to convict and imprison people has some pretty obvious possible second-order effects. You can see them all over the world, from the growth of for-profit prisons in the US to forced labor in Xinjiang. Once the state or a state-associated entity profits from convictions, they have all the reason in the world to increase the rate of convictions.

The United States does have forced labor, although not a whole lot that isn't under a pretense of a optional program. Notably at Angola (https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/11/10/angola-pri...)

But even if you want more, what should the prision do if a prisioner refuses to participate in the forced labor? How do you force them. Violence and torture is the only ultimate way. That is what you are demanding.

There’s some variations of prisoners de facto working for below minimum wage, but that’s now what you meant.

The biggest issue, if we ignore moral values and try to keep it a cold hearted calculation (which I don’t agree with), then you have one big problem: making prisoners a profitable business will encourage imprisoning more people. Economy responds to incentives, and this seems to me like a bad incentive.

Bring back the workhouse?

It's already a thing, and there are big issues with it https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-wo...)

Prison labour is often heavily discounted and it undercuts non-incarcerated people who're looking for a job.

I wonder why we do not use some sort of labor as penalty for misdemeanor, instead of useless incarceration.

The title of the article is:

Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program

That might be a hint.

I kinda agree with you, I think labour is good for prisoners. They were forced to be contained in a prison anyway. I think the solution is better managed prison, where prisons would work to cover the cost the prison, including food, electricity and so on. As long as it is not for profit. It is so hard to do though. Look at the non-profit organizations around us, many of them are corrupted as well.

We do have non-incarcerative punishment for misdemeanors in the form of community service.

The state of Mississippi ran Parchman Farm on this principle for decades, but as you might imagine it looked a lot like slavery. A lot of people suddenly got arrested for loitering come harvest time.

If you combine the two ideas - incarceration and work -- you get prison farms, sometimes known as county farms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm

Outside moral implications, prison labour is always ineffective as hell. The world didn't move on from slavery on humanitarian grounds, slavery-free societies are just more efficient.

When I lived in China years ago, I had a Chinese/local girlfriend whose brother-in-law owned a factory that "manufactured" small mechanical parts, like bolts, screws, springs, wire - stuff like that. She said that all the manufacturing was actually done in North Korea. The "factory" that he owned in China was all for show. He always knew when inspectors were coming, days in advance, and so he'd hire a few locals for a day to stand next to machines they had no idea how to use. It was all for show. She went on to tell me that her brother-in-law's factory was not unique. Manufacturers like her brother-in-law were usually 3 or 4 distribution companies removed from the big manufacturers, like the ones that made iPhones, but they all used parts from him, so inspections were extremely rare anyway.

Just to be clear, as outlined in the article both US and UN require inspections and these plants are “certified”. Clearly the inspectors do jack all. On the other hand, I’m curious how these investigators get all these local managers to give them tours of these plants and be so open like that. Like if a stranger shows up at my work and asks for a tour (whether or not it’s media), I’m not just going to give them a tour.

You dont need a new law. Just work with what you have.

1 raise tariffs on chinese goods.

2 undo massive regulatory red tape on all american industry.

3 enjoy fair trade transparent production of US sourced goods

Thw differential cost between still cheaper chinese goods with heavy tariffs and us good suject to heavy tax rate is more than covered by 3PL, shipping costs and supply chain delays.

You dont need to make productive costs similar all you need is to make producing in US marginally more competitive.

Chinese seafood

After reading The Outlaw Ocean[0] by the article’s author, it’s clear to me there is no ethical seafood. The overwhelming majority of it comes from natural reserves where fishing is prohibited, depleting marine ecosystems, and fished by slaves who are prisoners on their fishing boats. One more reason (on top of heavy metal pollution, bottom trawling, human rights issues, bycatch, marine ecosystems destruction) for me to not eat seafood. Yes there is a microscopic chance you know of an edge case where the seafood is catches using traditional methods in sustainable quantities by a business that is virtuous… that’s not the seafood you’ll get in most supermarkets or restaurants anywhere in the world.

[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outlaw_Ocean

That would generally be the goal of pieces like this.

I don't think I"m ever gonna complain about my job in America again.

At the same time, 2024-02-25T18:06:34, 13of40@hn:

> as a hiring manager, I'm not going to waste my time with a candidate whose resume shows them hopping companies every year or two.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39503133

I don't think I"m ever gonna complain about my job in America again.

Voilá, this is how those in power are kept in power.

I do envy the job specific intensive training though.

How can something like this be allowed into The United States. Are trade sanctions actually bureaucratic yellow tape to get around with middleman shell companies?

Not just US. Did you know that as soon as Russian sanctions began with the latest war escalation, German exports of chips and machinery to Kyrgyzstan rose 900%?

(I'd be the first to say this sounds like a conspiracy but by now even Reuters reported on it)

Trade sanctions are actually bureaucratic yellow tape to get around with middleman shell companies. They are at least slightly effective by shifting a fraction of the profits from sanctioned entities to middlemen, so better than nothing. But mostly they allow countries to pretend like they're doing something without actually taking kinetic action.

For example, there are currently a variety of sanctions against the Russian and Iranian petroleum industries. So, they sell at a slight discount to neutral countries such as India which then re-export the "clean" oil.

People send to EU are not some slaves, but highly loyal party members.

It's a member of the European parliament asking a question to the European Commission (the EU executive). The reply is linked at the top of the page, but note that both question and answer are by now quite dated.

Overall, at the end of 2016, 630 North-Korean citizens were holding a valid residence permit in the EU for work purposes, predominantly in Poland (534).[1]

When processing the applications for residence permits for work purposes, it is the responsibility of the national authorities to check that the conditions are fulfilled, in line with the EU acquis on legal migration, working conditions and on health and safety at work.

The EU acquis on legal migration ensures that third-country nationals working in the EU benefit from equal treatment with nationals in terms of remuneration, access to social security systems and other conditions of employment. It is the responsibility of the national authorities, including the labour inspectorates, police and judicial authorities to ensure that the prohibition of forced labour is enforced.

The Commission will keep monitoring the transposition and application of the different instruments by Poland.

I disagree, removing sanctions will make them stronger when the conflict comes. Also as I see it, all nations don't care much about people's suffering in some other country, they care most about their inner affairs, which is understandable geopolitically. Most of the people also don't care or else they would vote with their money. Are north koreans worth nuclear escalation - I don't think so.

Indeed. And beyond the interviews, there is plenty of other examination of direct evidence including videos posted to social media, shipping records, packing labels.

That evidence all supports the argument that the PRC and Chinese companies are complicit in violating sanctions.

Further, it is telling that the NK government and their Chinese co-conspirators actively fight investigations. See the literature spread to workers threatening punishment for talking to reporters.

Ask anyone who lived in Eastern Europe pre-Glasnost what happened to people that wanted change

It seems like there used to be at least a network of missionaries and covert organisations focused on helping North Koreans escape, but since covid hit it has all but disappeared - NK really went hard on survailence, absolute zero tolerance on dissident(even less than before) and equally China(common path for refugees before) stepped up their own surveilance game and nearly always succeeds at catching anyone attempting to cross through their country.

Some interesting details here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlX7tl1QvJs

All indications are that North Korea is incredibly tightly controlled. I've never seen any report of any independent of the government organization or faction or movement within North Korea.

It would be basically impossible. There’s an internal security apparatus partially trained by the East German Stasi. Anyone and everyone could be an informant to the state. Surveillance is assumed and whole families are sent to camps when people are found to be at odds with the state. What little we know from defectors, East German archives, and satellite imagery is terrifying.

American capitalism runs on slave labor from South America, Asia and Africa. Our politicians rail against immigration and globalism while brown people cut their lawns and clean their homes for scam wages. The party that championed globalism and outsourcing is the same party that's now complaining about the intended result.

This is why people say there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. To simply exist within the system of American imperialism is to be complicit in crimes against humanity.

I find it perfectly possible to be concerned about some aspects of the US penal system without implying its equivalency to the terror endured under one of the most oppressive political regimes in the world.

It’s more expensive, but there is a lot of seafood that’s produced in the US. No guarantees of humane treatmenr, but I bet much better than East Asia.

Cheap seafood? Check out Mr moneybags over here who can afford seafood.