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Institutions try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution

mizzao
99 replies
5h10m

As soon as I read this, I thought of TurboTax and its mission to preserve the crappy system of filing US taxes so that its software can continue to profit.

jjjjj55555
39 replies
4h49m

What comes to my mind are labor unions, the NAACP,as well as feminists and other identity groups.

They seem to follow a pattern of being really important for their time and place, but after winning the important, landmark victories, they stick around.

Now they have to start looking for, or creating, problems to solve, which often looks a lot like extortion.

Their base also becomes increasingly radical because all of the moderate people lost interest after the initial victories were won.

lapcat
15 replies
4h39m

What comes to my mind are labor unions, the NAACP,as well as feminists and other identity groups.

They seem to follow a pattern of being really important for their time and place, but after winning the important, landmark victories, they stick around.

They stick around because union busting corporations, racists, and sexists don't just magically disappear or give up after they lose a battle.

jjjjj55555
14 replies
4h7m

If these groups were doing their job, those bad guys you mentioned should be gone by now, right? They used to make the history books with their accomplishments. What have they done for you lately?

lapcat
6 replies
3h55m

If these groups were doing their job, those bad guys you mentioned should be gone by now, right?

Wrong. By what magic do you think their opponents suddenly disappear or give up?

Martin Luther King said, "the arc of the moral universe is long". Progess is slow and subject to setbacks.

They used to make the history books with their accomplishments.

Some areas of the country now want to ban the teaching of that history.

Forget racism and sexism for a moment: do you seriously think that the temporary existence of labor unions makes profit-maximizing corporations give up and give in to all of labor's demand for eternity, even after labor unions dissolved?

jjjjj55555
3 replies
3h31m

Do you feel the wars on drugs and terror will ever be won? I don't. I look at your wars the same way.

They'll drag on and on. Some people will get rich and powerful, but the people on whose behalf you're supposedly fighting don't really care about any of it.

They'd much rather have affordable healthcare and housing.

lapcat
0 replies
2h20m

They'd much rather have affordable healthcare and housing.

The "wars" for affordable healthcare and housing will also drag on and on. Because guess what, there are opposing sides fighting against each other on those issues too, and neither side will magically disappear or give up when one side wins a temporary victory.

It's truly bizarre that you think longstanding social issues can just be "solved" once and for all (if you truly believe that and aren't just trolling).

"If Christian evangelists did their job, then the whole world should be Christian." Doesn't that sound silly? It turns out that there are a whole lot of non-Christians in the world who don't want to be Christians, and they're going to do their "job" too.

lagadu
0 replies
2h7m

I'm just writing to call out your abrupt change of subject and avoidance to actually answer the person you replied to. Please be a better poster, if you have no answer, just don't reply.

jrajav
0 replies
3h2m

Get out of here with the "my team" / "your team" nonsense and the trolling in general. It's perfectly possible to make your point with reason and civility instead of cheap, shallow jabs, and if it isn't, well - probably not a point worth making.

philwelch
1 replies
2h30m

Some areas of the country now want to ban the teaching of that history.

This is not actually true, but the lie serves the purposes of activists seeking to justify their continued existence, so they keep telling it.

vacuity
0 replies
13m

I'm not supportive of all opinions from the left-wing about race and whatnot, but it's clear that there is real pushback. Some people want to downplay the crime of enslaving Africans and highlight "American exceptionalism", complete with evangelical Protestantism and some degree of white supremacy.

wredue
2 replies
3h45m

The fact that capitalists and misogynists have gotten too powerful means, to you, that we should abolish unions and feminism?

jjjjj55555
1 replies
3h28m

I don't think they're too powerful. Like I said, the major victories were won long ago and are in the history books.

The institutions that claim to fight those things are the ones who are the bad guys now. All the while, ignoring the real problems that everyone wants solved.

wredue
0 replies
3h11m

Wage slavery and misogyny *are* real problems that sane people want solved.

Yes they are still problems.

No, there hasn’t been newsheavy significant wins recently. There has, however, been newsworthy significant losses.

The idea that institutions should disappear because they’ve managed certain successes is utterly, bafflingly stupid. That’s especially the case as we are still current fraught with issues that these institutions exist to help with.

fastasucan
2 replies
3h44m

those bad guys you mentioned should be gone by now, right

I dont follow your logic. Isnt this a bit like saying if doctors were doing their job, cancer should be gone by now? If police does their job all crime is gone?

jjjjj55555
1 replies
3h30m

Scientists research cancer and are producing visible, measurable results. If they hadn't had any for the past 50 years, I'd say maybe they should change course.

ameister14
0 replies
2h40m

Are you saying that the civil rights and feminist movements in the US have not had visible measurable results in the last 50 years? If so, you are wrong.

educaysean
0 replies
3h20m

By this definition no nation should need a police force after an initial period of unrest. After all, police is there to solve crime right?

electrondood
13 replies
4h38m

The fact that you think racial equality or feminism are "done" illustrates clearly that the problem isn't solved.

jjjjj55555
7 replies
4h14m

From the perspective of most people belonging to those groups, the major battles are all won and they have much bigger cocerns in their day to day lives. These groups know that, so they have to keep manufacturing outrage in order to stay relevant.

jerojero
4 replies
3h39m

Really?

I am a gay man and I see increasing homophobic speech that stems from transphobia which most definitely isn't a "solved issue". This worries me.

Yes there was a battle in culture and politics that lasted decades for gay men, but as soon as you let go. You will see conservative groups pushing back. Because they're not gone, there is a long way for them to go as a lot of these ideas come from religious and conservative groups that will probably never go away.

Sorry, but the fight is not over. You don't see it because you're not a part of it it's as simple as that.

If you haven't taken the time to understand why people are still struggling then you can't come and say "well this is a done deal".

Societies move forward but they so with a constant push back. That's just how it is. Even today there is so much homophobia, transphobia, misoginy and racism being touted by people in our most powerful sitting positions that it's silly to think this is "made up" struggle for these groups to "stay relevant". I mean, homosexuals, transpeople, women and racial minorities are never going to go away so they're always going to be relevant.

dbrueck
2 replies
2h55m

Even today there is so much homophobia, transphobia, misoginy and racism being touted by people in our most powerful sitting positions t

Is that really the case though? It seems like in many (most? nearly all?) cases we've gone from people saying things that are overtly and objectively racist / sexist / etc. to things that aren't but could be construed that way if you squint hard enough, and it's largely in the eye of the beholder to decide, and along with that we've seen the rise in assuming people's intent. Once you've crossed the bridge of assuming intent, then pretty much everything can be further "evidence" of the foregone conclusion.

I invite you to take the statements of the "people in our most powerful sitting positions" for any recent period of time (the past month, the past 6 months, whatever) and make a note of all the ones that you are sure are homophobic, transphobic, racist, or whatever and try to take a look at them with fresh eyes. Set aside for a moment what you are so "sure" about their intent and background and see how many you can find are actually and objectively bad, or if they are just "bad" in the sense because (a) they have a different view than you and/or (b) it's only bad because in your mind that person is already <whatever>-ist and so everything they say is just going to be viewed through that lens.

We're never going to say that e.g. racism is a completely solved problem, but the headway we've made over the past century or two is so incredible that from the 30,000 ft view we're relatively close, and the organizations that exist to combat it have largely outlived their purpose and, unfortunately, in many cases seem to exist mostly to fan the flames.

ameister14
1 replies
2h37m

" Senator calls LGBTQ+ people 'filth,' says most don't want them here " >https://www.tahlequahdailypress.com/news/senator-calls-lgbtq...

So is this just bad because of a or b? Is it because their view is different, or because I'm not giving them enough credit?

How about the fact that three states are having to re-district because they have been using racial gerrymandering to reduce black votes right now?

dbrueck
0 replies
1h34m

Actually, I think this is a fantastic example of my point. He did not, in fact, call LGBTQ+ people filth, at least according to the quote in the article - the headline and the article clearly misconstrue what he said.

But let's pretend for a moment that he did say that. Is a state senator from Oklahoma one of the "people in our most powerful sitting positions"? With a sufficiently large population, we will be able to find people saying hateful things until the end of time - I don't dispute that at all. There will always be morons. But as you cast a wider and wider net to find people saying stupid things, you have to also take into account their proportion of the population. Even if he had really said that, he'd be part of a vanishingly small minority. Heck, the very fact that an article was written about what he not-quite said also shows how far we've come.

jjjjj55555
0 replies
3h20m

I'm not denying anyone's struggle or their right to organize against it.

I'm saying that the groups in question are amplifying the problem 100x, with the goal of angering folks like yourself.

They are the arms dealer in a never ending war.

Aloisius
1 replies
3h15m

You don't stop fighting after the major battles are won. You fight until the the war is over.

As long as there are groups that continue to fight to reverse the gains that were hard won, one must continue to fight hard. Complacency risks society regressing. See: abortion rights.

jjjjj55555
0 replies
2h56m

Neverending wars are exactly what I want to avoid. Eventually both sides end up becoming the bad guys.

lelanthran
4 replies
4h17m

The fact that you think racial equality or feminism are "done" illustrates clearly that the problem isn't solved.

Where are you going with this?

I mean, do any of those institutions formed solely for feminism (for example) actually have a metric for when they will be done?

Did they actually draw a line in the sand, saying "When we reach this point, we will dismantle the institution because at this point we will, happily, no longer be necessary?"

Because to all of us watching, they don't have a "done" metric. They don't have a goal, which when reached, will cause their existence to be unnecessary.

Their primary goal isn't "fighting for $whatever", it's to ensure the continued existence of the institution.

Sane people don't work that way - they have a goal in their mind, and once that is achieved they move on to a new goal.

jjjjj55555
1 replies
4h12m

I totally agree with that. In the past they may have had manifestos and explicit demands. You were either on board or you weren't.

Nowadays they seem to deal more in narratives.

mistrial9
0 replies
3h37m

seems to be related to continuous engagement versus living independently, somehow.. "crowded world" corollary?

itchyouch
0 replies
1h16m

The challenge with metrics is Goodhart's law.

The way it applies to companies, we can state that <whatever>-ism is solved because we reached some metric. So I'm not sure we can close up shop on an <ism> issue after winning some policy or reaching some type of measurable threshold.

That said, what I'm really hearing in this conversation isn't actually that the -ism institutions need to go away. What I'm really hearing is that some folks are very fatigued and tired of being inundated with the -ism dialogue and the demand to spend any energy on it at all. This seems to be significantly true for the people not affected by a particular ism.

And on the side of the -isms, folks are saying, "We absolutely do not feel heard, you're not hearing us about my particular -ism! You can't ignore the badness of the -ism. listen to me! I will step up my activism!"

The reality of the matter is that the -isms aren't going to go away and change is going to be a generational process. For example, every significant founding woman of woman's suffrage died of natural causes (old age), and none of them got to see womens' voting rights pass in their lifetime. Now that women voting isn't even a question of debate and very obvious, no one is really debating in earnest whether women should be allowed to vote or not. That's just a ridiculous thing to consider.

If you want a metric for a measurable threshold of when the ism-issue should go away, it's when we reach a point where the ism-issue has reached a point of saturation where it's plain and obvious and has enough societal inertia not to be challenged. And if people decide to revive something like whether women should be allowed to vote, trust that there will be an opposing force that rises up to fight that.

The pandora's box of the internet and social media is that much of the learned-helplessness to accept that an -ism-issue is here to stay can actually be rallied against, and that change can come about from it. So I would expect that this is the new reality we live with. One can either fight for or against the ism, or ignore it and focus on their interest of choice.

dpkirchner
0 replies
2h46m

I'm not sure what you think the goal should be. Do you imagine a world where racist policies end and never resume? We're a long, long, long ways from that so it seems premature to ask for organizations opposed to racism in government and business to close up shop, eh?

Tbh this comes across as related to the typical conservative argument that racism is over because we elected a black man president. That's not really what you're talking about, is it?

sneakay
2 replies
3h4m

Given you mention NAACP I'm assuming your comment refers to US-based organizations.

In that respect "feminists" won a landmark victory in 1973 that was just recently overturned in Roe v Wade. That's one example of the importance of "sticking around".

As all your examples are of groups leaning one particular way politically I'll proffer another example from other side.

Consider the NRA, presumably they don't need to exist as the 2nd amendment enshrines the right in our constitution.

As you may point out that right is under constant threat. Apply that same logic to the groups you're disparaging and you may better understand their purpose.

jjjjj55555
1 replies
2h59m

I don't feel any differently about the NRA. They're yet another group that's peddling a never ending culture war.

sneakay
0 replies
2h44m

The "culture war" just resulted in the reversal of Roe v Wade denying millions of women with healthcare access. The current and previous presidents both called for depriving people of their constitutional 2nd amendment rights. Even if you specifically dislike the NRA their stated purpose is objectively needed.

To reorient the discussion back on topic, the Sharky Principle is often weaponized by those who don't understand the ongoing endangerment of our basic rights. Even with immediate relevant examples like Dobbs v Jackson. Though it may be broadly applicable across organizations it's important to pick good examples.

lelanthran
2 replies
4h22m

I'm not sure why this was downvoted; it's entirely correct.

Any institution has, as its primary goal, to further its own life.

Why would institutions against $FOO (where $FOO is whatever your personal bogeyman is, such as racism or sexism) be any different?

zeraholladay
0 replies
3h27m

It's (the original comment) a pretty myopic comment because the same point can be made about the institutions that perpetuate $FOO.

mgfist
0 replies
20m

You're correct on a theoretical level. But in reality these are still very real issues. You don't even have to squint - just look at the Supreme Court and Dobbs v Jackson.

quirk
0 replies
4h27m

Douglas Murray's book "The Madness of Crowds" explains this very succinctly. On the other side of the political aisle you could reference the pro-life-only voting block who now finds themselves trying to raise money on an issue that has been resolved (in their minds). "Dog Catches Car" is the headline for all of these issues.

graycat
0 replies
4h15m

extortion?

Yup: Looks like there is an industry with a standard operating pattern:

Form a public interest group. Find an issue, e.g., a claim of a big threat, some version of the old the sky is falling.

To put over the issue: For evidence for the threat, scientific is not necessary; anecdotal is sufficient. Celebrity endorsement can help.

Get the media hungry for content on-board: Have them gang up, pile on, form a mob, publish shocking content, get credibility for the group and the issue via one for all, all for one, write click-bait headlines. Then the media gets eyeballs and ad revenue.

The group gets publicity, credibility, donations, goes for legislation and appropriations which help the group, result in campaign contributions, maybe cushy jobs.

Make use of a fact of life in politics: One percent of the voters making a big noise can scare politicians more than the other 99% not much concerned.

I.e., there is "extortion" -- objecting to the issue can result in getting hurt.

But eventually too many of that 99% find reasons not to like the issue, and it dies.

Repeat with another group/issue.

csours
0 replies
4h38m

I upvoted. I don't think you are entirely correct, but I think that you can go somewhere interesting from here.

Every position invites the opposite position to exist and gather power.

JackFr
19 replies
4h28m

Healthcare in the United States.

The insurers have somehow created which ensures their survival at a real cost. Attempts to rationalize the system have failed because of the focus on getting everyone health insurance rather than health care (admittedly among other reasons).

Aurornis
17 replies
4h4m

It doesn’t help that politicians continue to propose dead-in-the-water alternatives. The last round of “Medicare for All” included a lot of provisions that were very unpopular when you asked people about them directly, such as taking away people’s existing private insurance.

This a common theme in politics: Actually solving the problem might remove enthusiasm for your candidate or party, so instead they propose things with no realistic chance of passing. Their business is being front and center in public discourse, not quietly fixing things.

EDIT: I’m getting downvoted because a comment below is denying this part of the bill, so I’m adding the exact text here:

SEC. 107. PROHIBITION AGAINST DUPLICATING COVERAGE. (a) IN GENERAL.—Beginning on the effective date described in section 106(a), it shall be unlawful for— (1) a private health insurer to sell health insurance coverage that duplicates the benefits provided under this Act; or (2) an employer to provide benefits for an employee, former employee, or the dependents of an employee or former employee that duplicate the benefits provided under this Act.

The comment below is incorrect. The bill would have made people’s existing insurance plans illegal to offer.

bgoggin
8 replies
3h24m

This is not correct. There was no prohibition on private insurance. Rather, all would have been required to participate in the public plan to spread the risk. That's the only way it could work. If someone wanted to also pay for a private plan, that was allowed.

Aurornis
6 replies
3h11m

No, this is incorrect. Here is the actual section from the bill:

SEC. 107. PROHIBITION AGAINST DUPLICATING COVERAGE. (a) IN GENERAL.—Beginning on the effective date described in section 106(a), it shall be unlawful for— (1) a private health insurer to sell health insurance coverage that duplicates the benefits provided under this Act; or (2) an employer to provide benefits for an employee, former employee, or the dependents of an employee or former employee that duplicate the benefits provided under this Act.

You could technically also buy extra insurance for… something extra, but your existing insurance plan would have become illegal.

This was a huge sticking point, despite how many people try to deny it or downplay it.

jrajav
5 replies
2h56m

I'm honestly curious what the real meat of the objections to this were (I never heard much about this sticking point). Why would you want duplicating coverage anyway? Is it not strictly better for any consumer to only be paying for the extra coverage you want on top of the public coverage?

Aurornis
2 replies
2h48m

I didn't say I had objections to it. I said it was unpopular with the general public when you told them the details.

This is an example of a situation where people dislike the system but when you ask them about it they like their part of the system.

For example, people generally have an extremely low opinion of Congress, but on average they like their own Congress person.

You get similar results when you poll people about healthcare and health insurance: People generally hate the health insurance system, but if you start talking about taking away their health insurance or their doctor and replacing it with an unknown system, they get upset.

Why would you want duplicating coverage anyway? Is it not strictly better for any consumer to only be paying for the extra coverage you want on top of the public coverage?

Duplicating coverage is superfluous if you assume the new plan would be better in every way and you give up nothing in the process, obviously.

However, the fear is that upending the entire system would require people to give things up and replace it with unknowns. There's a good chance that some people would be forced to be reassigned to different doctors under a centrally-planned system, or that access to things would be reset and need to be re-determined under new guidelines.

If this doesn't make sense, consider a situation where someone got special approval for off-label coverage of a drug (happens all the time) but the new government insurance had stricter guidelines about which conditions could be treated with which drugs (to keep cost down). Those people could lose access to medications or treatments that were covered privately.

We tend to think of "Medicare for All" type plans as being without downsides, but when you get into the details of changing the entire health care system out and banning the old ways, it's inevitable that some people would start losing things they liked. And that's where people get upset.

redserk
1 replies
2h41m

To be fair, there was a log of disingenuous fear mongering around the notion of "the government is getting rid of your insurance".

It would be extremely difficult to get an accurate idea of what the general public thinks about a measure before certain interests get involved with publicizing FUD.

Aurornis
0 replies
2h21m

fear mongering around the notion of "the government is getting rid of your insurance

But that’s literally what the bill said.

Why is it “fear mongering” to state the effects of a bill? People truly didn’t like this idea.

s1artibartfast
0 replies
2h44m

Lots of people want to be able to pay to get faster treatment, or pay for better doctors if they can.

JumpCrisscross
0 replies
2h33m

Why would you want duplicating coverage anyway?

What I have works. It doesn’t for everyone. But it does for me.

If I’m too busy to read a thousand-page bill, it’s rational to default to the status quo. (Also, Americans like competition. Banning duplicate coverage sounds like ruling out the competition.)

ameister14
0 replies
2h52m

So that's not true.

They had to prohibit overlapping coverage in order to make sure that all private practice physicians accepted the medicare system, which has lower reimbursement rates than private insurance. You can pay for more coverage, because that doesn't compete with the public system, but you cannot pay for private insurance that may lead to lower access for publicly insured persons.

sircastor
6 replies
2h36m

I recall an interview where the interviewers were asking the politician if their plan for health coverage would raise everyone's taxes, to which they responded yes - of course they would. The interviewers tried to move forward with that, but the politician then notes that this would also mean that everyone stops paying for their current health insurance - and thus quite a lot cheaper.

Aurornis
5 replies
2h22m

the politician then notes that this would also mean that everyone stops paying for their current health insurance - and thus quite a lot cheaper.

Unfortunately, not so simple:

1) Health insurance is already required to pay out at least 90% of your contributions, so even a hypothetically perfectly efficient replacement could only eliminate 10% of costs, all things equal.

2) The government run system would realistically be expensive to run, like any program covering all Americans. Many of those private insurance costs would just be transferred to a government-run operation. In theory it should be more efficient to have single payer, but it would also be extremely expensive in the short term to build and overhaul the system.

3) The actual cost savings wouldn’t come from operational efficiency (not the government’s strongest ability) but from forcing prices down because nobody would have any choice but to accept the government insurance. They were going to drive costs down by forcing doctors and hospitals to take lower payments and, as unpopular as it is to say, by limiting the types and amounts of treatments available to people.

duped
2 replies
1h33m

The government run system would realistically be expensive to run, like any program covering all Americans. Many of those private insurance costs would just be transferred to a government-run operation. In theory it should be more efficient to have single payer, but it would also be extremely expensive in the short term to build and overhaul the system.

The government is already the largest health insurer in the country, and providers can't turn them down. There's no system to overhaul.

The idea of "Medicare for all" is actually very simple - if you do not have private market health insurance, you can opt in to the health insurance the government already provides for about 65 million people.

Aurornis
1 replies
1h15m

The government is already the largest health insurer in the country, and providers can't turn them down.

This is completely false. Many providers don’t accept Medicare or Medicare.

I don't know where you’re getting the idea that Medicare/Medicaid can’t be turned down by private practices.

The idea of "Medicare for all" is actually very simple - if you do not have private market health insurance, you can opt in to the health insurance the government already provides for about 65 million people.

Again, that’s not what the “Medicare for All” bill actually said.

People just assumed it was an optional thing, but the bill said something else entirely.

Your post is a great example of how people had their own ideas about how things work or would work under new bills, but when you actually read the details it’s a different situation altogether.

I’m also amazed at the confidence with which people will deny the basic facts of “Medicare for All”, as evidenced by many comments in this thread. I posted an actual excerpt from the bill above, yet people are still trying to argue that it said something else.

duped
0 replies
47m

You are misinterpreting the text of the bill you keep quoting. As well as equating the notion of Medicare For All as a policy with one attempt to pass it that failed.

While sure, providers could choose to not accept Medicare, practically all do because the people that need the most healthcare are all on it. That would be akin to not treating anyone over the age of 65.

ink_13
1 replies
1h53m

These points assume that costs would stay the same and there's no overhead in the existing insurance system.

Single-payer could be cheaper and more efficient simply by returning the massive profits of health insurers directly to taxpayers. Part of high cost for healthcare in the USA is the huge number of middlemen.

mike_hearn
0 replies
1h30m

Do they have massive profits? It says here that they have very low profit margins of about 3%

https://content.naic.org/sites/default/files/inline-files/he...

Contrast that with the average of all industry profit margins at ~10% and with SaaS type firms of ~80%.

If you want to improve US healthcare costs by getting rid of the profit margin of insurers, it's probably a bad idea. You wouldn't notice the impact.

jerojero
0 replies
3h47m

No one is going to get elected for solving a problem everyone today is going to be dead to see the results of.

Although we all might agree that this is necessary, people usually tend to vote for people who promise "real" solutions. As in, short term solutions to problems we've been carrying for decades (which obviously requires policies that also take decades to cement).

ttymck
0 replies
2h54m

Most establishments in the United States.

empath-nirvana
15 replies
5h0m

I think the more archetypal example is that _treating_ a disease is a lot more profitable than _curing_ a disease -- would the Epipen manufacturer ever develop and market a allergy _vaccine_ that cured an allergy with a one time shot?

BurningFrog
9 replies
4h55m

This is one reason it's essential to have a free enterprise system, where anyone can take on such problems.

sitkack
5 replies
4h23m

Or a system that removes profit from the equation. From the article, I don't think any one bureaucratic system is immune from the effect.

In the tech sector, we see many examples of the disruptor opening a temporary wedge to either get acquired by the dominant player or becoming the new hegemonist.

BurningFrog
4 replies
4h5m

A system where it's not profitable to solve problems won't do much problem solving.

owisd
3 replies
3h33m

This is just taking the rational consumer model, forgetting it's just a model and treating it as a fact of life, and then inventing corollaries from it. Plenty of people find intrinsic value in solving problems without there needing to be a profit. See, e.g. Open Source Software, The Apollo Program, Academia, the BBC.

fallingknife
1 replies
2h57m

And that only works for problems that are cheap to solve. Most aren't.

rented_mule
0 replies
1h59m

You are replying to a post that references exceptionally expensive efforts. The inflation adjusted cost of the Apollo Program was hundreds of billions of dollars[1]. By what measure is that cheap? Maybe I'm missing intended sarcasm?

[1] https://www.planetary.org/space-policy/cost-of-apollo

BurningFrog
0 replies
31m

The Apollo Program, Academia, and the BBC all pay their workers, which makes it profitable for them to do the work.

I get your point: These are not for profit enterprises and they still get important work done.

I'm making a different point: People don't work for the benefit of others without being rewarded.

Open Source Software is not a bad counter example. I think there are rewards in the joy of programming, making a name for yourself, and a few other things, but I'll concede that there is some nuance there.

smallmancontrov
0 replies
4h27m

If it's too free, nobody will do the research because they'll get scooped by copycats while everyone will claim to have a cure because they'll already have the customer's money by the time their fraud is discovered. Freedom is a good default and a good guiding principle, but it's a terrible absolute principle.

forgetfreeman
0 replies
3h15m

Free enterprise is not a necessary precondition for research. You'll note how much of the last 50 years of technological advancements were direct or indirect results of government funded research programs.

TheOtherHobbes
0 replies
4h30m

Why would this happen when it's more profitable not to?

fabian2k
4 replies
4h21m

One of the most successful drugs in recent times was one that actually cured a previously chronic and not curable disease. It was also a controversial one because it was very expensive. But Solvadi, which cured Hepatitis C was certainly a huge commercial success and shows that the whole idea that pharma companies are never incentivized to cure diseases instead of treating them is just wrong.

mixmastamyk
3 replies
2h26m

Nice example, but one exception doesn’t disprove a trend.

kortilla
1 replies
1h44m

What trend? You need to show evidence of cures being suppressed many times to indicate any kind of trend.

mixmastamyk
0 replies
24m

Any trend. I’m not making a claim, simply a logical statement. Those making claims need to show evidence.

fabian2k
0 replies
1h44m

What trend? In which cases specifically are companies avoiding to create a cure that would be possible and promising?

bdw5204
15 replies
5h0m

My first thought was of the 2 major US political parties and their mission of promising things they have no intention of ever doing to get votes so they can win elections, take away more of our freedoms and redistribute more wealth from the many to the few. TurboTax is also a great example though.

wesselbindt
13 replies
4h55m

This is quite independent of the US. The state functions purely to protect the interests of the dominant class. In the US, the dominant class happens to be capital owners, but that's true in most of the world these days.

jjjjj55555
8 replies
4h48m

I tend to agree, but then I look at Europe and I say, who is the ruling class here? In the US it's obvious that corporations run everything, but that doesn't seem to be the case in western Europe.

smallmancontrov
4 replies
4h33m

Just because they occasionally legislate USB-C chargers doesn't make them bastions of socialism, lol.

jjjjj55555
1 replies
4h22m

I know they're not socialist, but they're also not clearly dominated by giant corporations the way the US is. Who is the ruling class then?

smallmancontrov
0 replies
3h41m

Means & motive are still largely governed by whether you own things for a living or work for a living. The pay to exist vs get paid to exist dynamic is alive and well over there and the debates are all quite familiar. After all they invented the rules and we just copy-pasted them with a few small modifications. The ownership class just isn't as dominant as it is in the US at the moment, for better and for worse.

bdw5204
1 replies
2h28m

Is it possible that they pass USB-C charging and data privacy laws in Europe because the companies affected are primarily American companies not European companies?

Likewise, I imagine they pass anti-fossil fuel laws because there aren't really any major fossil fuel producing countries in Europe besides Russia which is both a pariah and the continent's gas station.

cheschire
1 replies
4h38m

That's because western europe is the ruling class.

jjjjj55555
0 replies
4h21m

All of the people of western Europe are the ruling class? LOL I doubt any of them feel that way. What are they ruling exactly?

psychoslave
0 replies
4h15m

I won't say this is a good representation of every european country, but in France, basically two bilionary own all mainstream private press media, the rich class basically built Macron to push their agenda, and most important laws anyway come from Europe transpositions where only those that can build a perpetual lobby service can push a topic into a directive.

So yes obviously Europe is a paradise of direct democracy where every citizen bloom thanks to a social structure made to help each of them thrive and reach the best version of themselves acting everyday for an harmonious society free of any anxiety about future that promise only bright shiny days for the masses and their children.

kubanczyk
2 replies
4h43m

> the 2 major US political parties and their mission of promising things they have no intention of ever doing

This is quite independent of the US.

Happens less in electoral systems where the 2nd party can become 3rd overnight. Politics become less rigid.

philwelch
1 replies
2h32m

Multiparty systems can become completely deadlocked as well. Belgium has had complete deadlocks because nobody can form a coalition, Israel had five elections in three years for similar reasons, Britain was effectively deadlocked under Theresa May, and Canada has had outright minority governments.

I also wouldn’t describe US politics as “rigid” just because we have the same two parties, because each party has different factions and some of the most powerful factions were either marginal or completely nonexistent a couple decades ago.

umanwizard
0 replies
1h6m

The biggest problem with the U.S. system isn’t that there are only two parties (that’s a problem, just not the biggest one). It’s that both parties need to agree in order to pass anything (due to the senate filibuster), which as far as I know is unique among democracies.

PaulDavisThe1st
0 replies
2h21m

The state functions purely ...

any sentence that starts this way is just walking straight into its own falsity.

No human system as complex as "the state" ever functions "purely" to do anything. Instead, it's a venue in which different interests and power levels sometimes compete and sometimes cooperate, sometimes achieving goals and often not.

mgfist
0 replies
23m

Biden passed the most comprehensive climate law in US history. The most unbelievable part is that the law was nearly unchanged from what was written by climate experts. Usually bills start out looking good, then get frankensteined by the hundreds of stakeholders that want to cram their shit into it. For once, we got a pretty clean bill that will actually do good (based on the climate experts I've read).

Form your own opinions, but I had to mention real action that happened.

jacobsimon
1 replies
4h38m

There’s a lot of businesses like this that rely on “complexity” or “fragmentation” of existing systems, particularly in the US where laws and standards differ across all states. Another example is a business like Segment—-they profit off of the complexity and incompatibility of other companies’ products, and would likely oppose or delay an open standard.

calvinmorrison
0 replies
4h36m

Avalara is another one

userabchn
0 replies
32m

Indeed, however at least TurboTax has competition so that the experience, while unnecessarily complicated, is not as unpleasant as it could be. I have recently been thinking about this as I have just filed my taxes, which, in the country I am living in, can be done only using the government's website. This website is dreadful. It hasn't changed since the early 2000s at the latest, provides no help or guidance, contains typos, and even requires that you manually copy a number from one page to the next. I also don't think the tax system is noticeably easier than the one in the USA (where I used to live) even though there is no direct analogue of TurboTax lobbying for complexity (although there probably are still accountant lobby groups).

pydry
0 replies
4h55m

Or the carbon/nuclear industries' PR campaigns to foment support to maintain their subsidies and keep them away from solar + wind.

michtzik
0 replies
4h27m

That's literally the first example in TFA.

gadders
0 replies
4h45m

Charities too.

Chinjut
0 replies
3h8m

This is in fact the first example in the article.

hprotagonist
94 replies
4h2m

https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html

  Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people:

    First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration.

    Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc.

  The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization.

giantg2
31 replies
3h34m

The AMA is an amazing example of this, even though most doctors do not belong to the AMA.

mrandish
27 replies
3h15m

The TSA is also miraculous in it's ability to suck up billions of dollars in hidden fees added to every plane ticket and annoy tens of millions of people while performing a "service" which has been proven (many times, including by the TSA's own studies) to be completely unnecessary since cockpit doors were hardened and pilot procedures updated in 2002. Even if it was needed, their "service" has also demonstrated itself to be completely ineffective based on the number loaded handguns accidentally included in carry-on luggage and missed by TSA screening every year.

paulryanrogers
12 replies
3h0m

This seems reductive. For everything TSA misses they've caught plenty of other weapons that have no place in the cabin of an aircraft. No security can be perfect, so tradeoffs are inevitable. We can disagree about the thresholds, but it's not just theater.

derefr
8 replies
2h50m

But it's not the TSA's job to prevent murders in the air. (We already had a service specifically for that — the Air Marshals!)

The TSA's only job is to prevent planes from being hijacked or destroyed in a way that results in massive collateral damage.

And as the GP says, if you can't get in the cockpit, there become relatively few ways of doing this. (And the ways that do remain — e.g. binary explosives — are addressed by the more-limited carry-on regulations and security checks that every country does, and which the US already did before the TSA.)

paulryanrogers
7 replies
2h40m

An air marshall on a flight has one gun. If a determined group could reliably bring multiple guns into the cabin they're much more likely to overpower the marshall. From there they could open exterior doors and throw debris into the engines. Or perhaps their weapons could breach even armored cockpit doors.

WalterBright
2 replies
2h16m

throw debris into the engines

Good luck with throwing debris into a 400 mph wind at -30F while passing out from lack of oxygen.

notact
1 replies
1h35m

Yup, and also not getting sucked out the door if you were able to open it (which you couldn't at cabin pressure anyway).

WalterBright
0 replies
1h3m

Burt Berlin, my mentor at Boeing, got his start working on the B47 (first jet bomber). They discovered that the pilot could not bail out into the wind stream, the force would just push him back in. Hence the development of the ejection seat to force him out.

kortilla
1 replies
2h21m

It’s a plug door, you can’t open it at altitude.

Also, throwing debris into the engines would just result in an emergency landing.

The TSA is ridiculous and there isn’t a need to try to contrive examples to justify what they could prevent outside of hijacking.

If their goal was to prevent killing just a plane load of people, they would have to setup perimeters far around the airport to prevent people with a 50 caliber rifle from shooting up the cockpit during takeoff roll.

They would also need to block private air access to the airport because someone could just drive a truck of explosives underneath a plane load of people taxiing.

Put differently, it their job was just mass casualty prevention in transit caused by other people, they would need to be near every bus station, controlling road access near buses, guarding all railroad tracks with passenger routes, etc.

lamontcg
0 replies
2h1m

TSA lines are an obvious soft target and if someone wanted to take a lot of people with them, they could just use a suicide vest in the security lines. It would have the same chilling effects on the air travel economy and spread terror.

swells34
0 replies
1h57m

I'm getting the impression you don't know much about aviation.

dingnuts
0 replies
2h28m

Obviously the solution is just to allow concealed carry on planes and let law abiding citizens defend themselves, and keep the cockpit locked. Yee-haw!

kilroy123
0 replies
2h13m

Yes but many other countries do this same service with private companies for much less money.

giantg2
0 replies
2h50m

This really doesn't say anything about the benefits though. Just because people had "weapons" (some of which are basically harmless, like fishing tackle, or drinks), doesn't mean they prevented a threat. Yes, maybe the theater of it has dissuaded some from even attempting. Many, including myself, feel that many of the rules and the penalties for them are extreme.

gcheong
0 replies
1h5m

"For everything TSA misses they've caught plenty of other weapons that have no place in the cabin of an aircraft."

How do you know? They seem very tight-lipped about how effective they are at catching things vs things they miss and at least one test done by the TSA itself resulted in a 95% success rate - for the terrorists (https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/06/reassessing_a...). But hey now you at least have the "right" to pay a fee to be labeled not a terrorist and go through security as if it was pre 9/11.

nojvek
6 replies
2h43m

There’s a notion of creating jobs that is seen in many economies.

People are much happier if they are paid to do a “job” even though it is sometimes more efficient to not have that person.

You could directly give them the money but it would drive people to depression and addiction without a job.

It’s interesting how we all have this innate drive to “do something to keep us busy and be appreciated for it”.

That’s how I feel going through TSA. Millions of jobs to keep people busy.

cortesoft
3 replies
2h29m

There are so many actual useful things that need to be done, though! Can't we make work for those instead?

alexashka
1 replies
1h31m

Yes, but that would involve people who make decisions admitting there are people much more capable of doing what they do and stepping aside.

Do you foresee that becoming the norm within your lifetime? :)

giantg2
0 replies
14m

If I remember right, there are multiple types of leaders. One type is leader by necessity - basically you don't want to lead but do if you feel you're the best option.

I can say from experience that the scenario of these types of people becoming the dominant leadership style isn't possible as it's self-defeating.

I filled the role of a tech lead and had great feedback from it. We had a more senior dev join the following year. I told them they should ask for the official title and we could share the responsibilities that I had been performing on my own. 10 years later and im not even a senior dev... sucks for me I guess.

AshamedCaptain
0 replies
27m

No, no one wants to do the useful things that need to be done, such as fixing my sewage pipes. Not even me, even if I was paid SWE salaries.

lotsofpulp
0 replies
1h13m

There’s tons of trash to pickup everywhere if the goal is to give people a job.

anotheruser13
0 replies
1h59m

TSA is more like what Graeber would call a bullshit job.

ttymck
5 replies
2h56m

Yet most Americans would vote to maintain the TSA and its mandate.

unnamed76ri
4 replies
1h58m

Most Americans seem poised to vote for either Biden or Trump also. Sometimes the majority is a mob of idiots.

vacuity
2 replies
33m

There's no amount of informed argument that will sway the extremists, so when it comes to politics, people are even bigger idiots. For the rest, it's more that they feel one candidate or the other is a necessary evil to avoid letting the worse candidate be elected. I don't think that's an issue on their part, at least as pertains directly to who they should vote for.

ttymck
1 replies
9m

I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make, as it pertains to the TSA

vacuity
0 replies
7m

I was going off-topic.

ttymck
0 replies
10m

Perhaps that was my point exactly?

latchkey
0 replies
10m

I wouldn't say "completely unnecessary" because I believe that preventing another "shoe bomber" [0] is important. But, the way the TSA goes about doing that, doesn't seem to be worth the cost.

[0] https://www.fbi.gov/history/artifacts/richard-reids-shoes

ericfr11
2 replies
2h54m

So do most oil companies: money goes to the top cigar-smoking high -level directors, and ground-level engineers work for peanuts

kortilla
0 replies
2h18m

Depends on what you mean by “peanuts”. Eng for oil generally puts you in top 5% of incomes in the US, it just has a crap location.

WalterBright
0 replies
2h14m

So start your own company. Then you get to keep all the money.

dv_dt
31 replies
2h43m

Almost all the examples discussed are government or social institutions, but it really applies more widely. Large corporations should be included, and even whole economies. A more general word instead might be "systems".

If you look at the historic prime growth and productivity eras of national economies of the US and China, some of the most productive eras were early on when large scale systems (corporations, institutions, etc) simply didn't exist. In the primary build phase, growth was huge even though the investments and actual tasks required were huge. But as the 50s/60s US Economy, and the 90s/00s China economy filled in with existing systems there is a phase transition. Productivity slows. Even when you have more resources, and more solved problems, more skills available, productivity slows. And IMHO, it directly relates to this inversion of administration vs actual work.

WalterBright
19 replies
2h21m

The most productive eras corresponded to when the economies were most free market.

iambateman
10 replies
2h10m

This is apparently true of the past 200 years, but I wonder if it’s not causal?

There were millennia of unbelievably open markets which were marked by almost no growth at all.

lazide
4 replies
2h4m

There has to be unrealized economical potential for growth. And there has to be shifts either in that potential, or in the machinery that uses it for change.

Think of it like a potential gradient, or a gravity well, or a food source in biology.

Open markets where markets have been open for awhile (and no new game changing things like new technology, new ideology, etc. have happened) will maintain homeostasis at that level.

If new technology gets introduced, unless there is strong closed market forces to keep it from spreading, then you’ll have change (in this case growth) faster with open markets. It will equalize the potential faster.

Which, depending on who you are, may be desirable or not.

WalterBright
3 replies
1h57m

There has to be unrealized economical potential for growth.

Free markets have always found that potential.

lazide
2 replies
1h50m

Free markets help, but are not by themselves sufficient. Equalizing that potential is also not always in the interest of many parties.

You don’t have to go back very far in history to find plenty of examples.

Recent history has had massive and rapid technological development, and it’s been relatively easy to find win/win trades, so it’s easy to think it is.

But the Caribbean slave trade, or US Deep South cotton trade, or Indian spice trade? Eh…. A little less clear.

WalterBright
1 replies
58m

Free markets help, but are not by themselves sufficient.

Example?

Caribbean slave trade

And yet the free market in the US buried them, and the Caribbean remains poor.

lazide
0 replies
34m

I don’t think you have the history here.

Technological development - decent ships, actually good and reliable navigation, and knowledge of exploitable opportunities (sugar markets, and later cotton).

Energy gradient - cheap labor (in the form of slaves) in Africa, cheap arable land (Caribbean, US, South America), hungry markets with excess wealth in Europe.

First, the Caribbean got exploited (with open markets!) rather brutally, until the slave rebellions starting in 1790, and further escalating.

Haiti in particular, won their rebellion - and then were completely economically isolated (by closing the market!) by the European powers. They still have not recovered economically, same for most of the Caribbean.

Around this time is when the US markets (less ideal to exploitation, but larger and more controllable) in both sugar cane and cotton started to take off using the same sources.

Which fueled significant tension between the northern states (no crops easily amenable to slavery, rather being capital manufacturing, livestock, and secondary goods like weaving/textiles) and the southern states (many labor intensive crops, amenable to slavery).

Attempts at controlling the open markets in these crops by dissimilar interests (by either banning slavery or by blockade) is what led to the civil war.

The south couldn’t ban slavery without bankrupting their economy. The north couldn’t allow free trade/slavery continue without making themselves less competitive, as Europe has more developed textile mills and heavy manufacturing. So them getting the goods directly was undercutting northern US competitiveness.

Notably, the British, being the first into the Industrial Revolution and the furthest along, were also the first major European power to not just ban slavery in their country - but all their colonies, and everywhere else they could reach.

To cut off the ‘energy gradient’ of cheap labor, and make their products (more capital intensive manufacturing) more competitive.

The Caribbean is poor because they rebelled against exploitation, but couldn’t capture the economic engine that was exploiting them - they got bypassed by a competitor.

And by the time their competitor (US Deep South) also got broken, the underlying energy gradient that led to them being exploited at all was cut off.

So all they had left was ruins, debt, and disease.

Sucks to be them.

So, depending on how you measure ‘good’, they’d have probably been a whole lot better off with a closed market that would never have let the initial energy gradient be formed to begin with, eh? Or at least not allowed the extremely rapid and rapacious exploitation.

Think of open markets as a full open floodgate, and closed ones as having a valve at various degrees of closed off.

Flooding is very ‘profitable’ if you can somehow harness it (very difficult to do), but can be very unpleasant and destructive for those caught in its path. It’s nearly impossible to die of thirst in a flood.

Restrictive flow doesn’t product as much ‘profit’ but has the potential to produce more desirable outcomes if used effectively. As long as the dam doesn’t burst of course. If the valve is misused or turned off, it’s easy for some (or even all) to die of thirst.

Pick your poison.

Gibbon1
3 replies
1h13m

The last two hundred years saw the amount of energy available increase 50X.

The US is into free markets because historically it's interests were anti-mercantilist.

whatshisface
2 replies
1h3m

The amount of energy available hasn't changed in a billion years, only the activities of humans has.

Gibbon1
1 replies
29m

Please don't make silly comments like this.

whatshisface
0 replies
27m

You don't think the social context in which the energy was made available has anything to do with the fact that the growth occurred?

WalterBright
0 replies
1h58m

It's true for the last thousand years at least. A thriving middle class appeared in northwestern Europe a thousand years ago, a middle class of merchants and other businessmen.

edmundsauto
3 replies
1h58m

Doesn't this depend on how you define productive? If GDP is your metric, I think it probably correlates well - despite the fact that the 50s and 60s weren't particularly free market (wage restrictions, high taxes, etc.) when compared to say 1930 after the free market collapsed.

But my larger point is that I think "free market" eras also correspond with worse quality of life for the majority of citizens. I'm thinking things like pre-safety-regulations industrialization in the US; the environmental catastrophe that was the 60s (so bad that it led Nixon to create the EPA); the affordable housing catastrophe that has been the past 15 years.

We can obviously produce more if we don't have to worry about externalities like "worker safety", "being able to afford rent", or "habitable environments". Free markets create conditions where externalities aren't as important.

droopyEyelids
1 replies
1h42m

"Free Market" here refers to "free from economic rent"

fieldcny
0 replies
1h8m

That is not a common definition of free market.

WalterBright
0 replies
1h0m

1930 after the free market collapsed

What collapsed were the banks, due to mismanagement by the Fed (the government). In particular, it was trying to maintain a fixed (government specified) exchange rate between gold and money while inflating the money 2:1.

Like all such pegging schemes, the result was a run on the banks, leading to their collapse. This (finally) stopped when FDR made it illegal to exchange gold for money.

dimal
2 replies
2h2m

Define “free”. Most modern Asian capitalist economies have never been very “free” in the American sense of “free market”. They’ve always been heavily guided by government policy.

I think the most productive eras are really when everyone is picking low-hanging fruit. And the low-hanging fruit only seems so low because there’s been a burst of newly available mechanical technology. Then everything is picked clean, productivity drops, and the economy shifts to prioritizing useless consumption.

WalterBright
1 replies
1h56m

"The free market is an economic system based on supply and demand with little or no government control. One of the central principles of a free market is the concept of voluntary exchange, which is defined as any transaction in which two parties freely trade goods or services."

-- google "free market"

WalterBright
0 replies
57m

LOL, downvoted for answering the person's question.

t0bia_s
0 replies
2h9m

Also when currency was backed by commodity that made limits by sources. With fiat money, there are no limits and companies / governments crippling free market. (or natural resources like environment etc.)

mc32
8 replies
2h20m

Private companies, I think, have some limits. Governments can always raise taxes or print more money to sustain their otherwise insolvent organization.

In other words they can be wasteful and top heavy without having to periodically pare things down through layoffs.

And definitely organizations that teach their initial goals will reinvent themselves to milk more money.

dv_dt
5 replies
2h15m

Monopolies and regulatory capture sustains insolvent organizations.. see Boeing.

This really isn't a private enterprise vs govt split. It's the system in place of how decisions get made, how resources are allocated. Our current system of the world has elements split in both private enterprise and gov't that as a system, exhibit Pournelles law.

This theory of division between private enterprise and gov't doesn't in practice limit the negative effects - in fact in think we live in a modern world where we should recognize that there are many many examples of this split failing to administer a solution to meet the needs of society & humans.

mc32
4 replies
1h39m

Boeing can still go bankrupt or become so financially strapped it needs to sell itself off, merge, split, etc. Governments rarely try to become more efficient. By and large they keep adding to their bureaucracies.

The ex Gov of Texas was made fun of for saying he’d eliminate parts of the executive and when asked couldn’t even remember which ones, never the less, there is a kernel of a good idea to retrench bureaucracies on a periodic basis -something when younger I’d dismiss out of hand because I though more govt always equals better.

dv_dt
2 replies
1h29m

Private enterprise in our current system stands in the way of government being more efficient. It's a prime example of administrators (in the form of capitol holders) standing in the way of better functioning.

Intuit / Turbo Tax standing in the way of better tax admin.

Pharma companies standing in the way of negotiated drug prices for medicare.

Power utilities standing in the way of rules allowing distributed power production.

The list goes on and on...

mc32
1 replies
1h15m

Do you think the VA hospitals run better than private?

dv_dt
0 replies
43m

I know that private medicare advantage plans are coming to be worse than gov't medicare plans and the private healthcare fights many improvements in medicare administration. Including wierd lobbied divisions between what the private plans are allowed to cover in areas that the public plans are not.

And on a system wide scale, US private healthcare is broken in both cost and performance when compared to comparably advanced nations.

I'll rephrase what I said in a different comment, and that the public/private division and arguing about which is "better" on an exclusionary basis is a big distraction on the failing of systems which include elements of both. "Free market or not" is mostly an immaterial distinction imho.

dv_dt
0 replies
26m

I'll add a separate comment, because I don't feel I specifically addressed your observation that Boeing can go bankrupt, split, etc.

Boeing is today, the conglomeration of previous companies that did become distressed enough to be consumed or split and acquired. That actually exacerbated the systemic problems of the current Boeing. So this idea that private enterprise can't accumulate systemic issues seems like an optimistic concept that is invalidated by Boeing's current circumstances.

t0bia_s
0 replies
2h14m

- Governments can always raise taxes or print more money.

Fiat money basically cripple the free market. We need decentralised currency for healthy free market that has limits in commodity.

dariosalvi78
0 replies
33m

Companies can be very efficient at keeping themselves in the market rather than providing real value. Rent seekers, mono/oligopolies, etc. examples are abundant.

wnevets
0 replies
45m

Large corporations should be included, and even whole economies. A more general word instead might be "systems".

For example Davita actively lobbies their patients not to get transplants [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw_nqzVfxFQ

dv_dt
0 replies
2h15m

Addl note on the phase change: administration might also be thought of as capital ownership in a economic or capitalist context where an inefficiency is protection or "administration" of large pools of existing wealth and profits becoming more important than the continued building of the creation of value and identification and solving of social problems through economic activity.

osrec
10 replies
3h40m

Does the second group also end up skewing remuneration in their favour? For example, a tech company where managers are paid over the odds, while the passionate engineers who do a lot of the technical heavy lifting are paid less.

vrosas
7 replies
3h24m

Naturally. I’m being hyperbolic but barely. It’s middle management’s entire job to squeeze as much productivity out of their reports for as little money as possible. Anything they do in their free time (1:1s, career discussions, etc) is just there to give the reportees the illusion of control in the system. And it’s not my belief - I fight it where I can but it’s literally how companies structure incentives. Nobody gets a bonus for how many of their underlings got promoted last year. Your importance is a measure of headcount (why have a principal engineer when you can have 3 associates?) and products shipped (more hands on keyboards mean more stuff flung to prod, quality need not apply).

Source: am middle management.

jedberg
3 replies
3h16m

Sounds like you work at a pretty toxic org if this is the case. Even at Amazon a big component of management promotions is how many people did you get promoted this year and what are the highest levels of people reporting to you.

The fastest way to go from Senior Manager to Director is to get as many people as possible promoted to Principal Engineer, or hire more PEs. Or better yet get your Principal Engineer promoted so that they have to become your peer.

shermantanktop
2 replies
3h3m

And you can guess what shenanigans result from such a strong incentive. People should be promoted when they are ready, not when their manager’s empire-building aspirations will benefit.

jedberg
1 replies
2h48m

People were promoted after they were ready, because they had to convince a promo committee that they were ready. The manager was your advocate but did not have a say in if you were promoted beyond being your advocate.

So the incentives were aligned. The manager was incentivized to put you up for promotion as soon as they thought you might be ready, not the other way around. The toxic part was actually that your manager didn't have final say.

Even when they thought you were ready they had to convince others in an overburdensome process.

vrosas
0 replies
2h34m

I’d be inclined to believe you if the company in question wasn’t legendary for being an awful, toxic dumpster fire of a place to work for SDEs.

aprdm
1 replies
2h43m

I suggest you look for another job, and don’t know how you can work in such toxicity

vrosas
0 replies
1h6m

I’ve worked for several companies of various sizes and industries in my career and I can’t say any of them have been remarkably different than what I described. Being a manager now explained the confusing behavior and outcomes I experienced earlier in my career, in fact.

mathattack
0 replies
3h19m

I am a big proponent of what you imply: the best leaders are massive next exporters of top talent. Once you explicitly compensate for that, the optimizers will destroy your organization by promoting mediocre people.

kjkjadksj
0 replies
3h31m

If not directly, they skew it by expanding their headcounts by the year

WalterBright
0 replies
2h13m

Start your own tech company. Let us know how it goes.

m12k
3 replies
2h11m

In 2015, Chuck Palahniuk (author of Fight Club) talked about the same concept in an interview he gave about the graphic novel he was making as a sequel to Fight Club[1]

my dream, or idea was that Project Mayhem and the whole organization would work to create empowered individuals who would go off to create their own visions. And that the organization itself would disappear. People weren’t meant to stay in it; the organization wasn’t meant to sustain its own power. Which was my experience with doing [Werner H. Erhard’s self-improvement training] EST. A lot of people who had a vision, who were empowered by EST — including myself — then went off to become the person they dreamed of being. That’s how I started writing. But a lot of people who didn’t really have a vision became part of EST. They really couldn’t bridge out of it. They just kind of perpetuated the power of the organization, because they didn’t have their own personal vision. And so what we’re seeing in Fight Club 2 is that Project Mayhem has crossed the line where it’s no longer about empowering people. It’s about maintaining its own power in the world.

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/27/8660881/fight-club-sequel...

seer
1 replies
1h2m

I think the “Mars” books (red mars, blue mars, green mars) proposed an interesting economic idea.

In a world where automation and AI allowed physical stuff to be organized and built almost as easy as software, you didn’t really _need_ huge organizations (employee wise) to accomplish goals, so Mars came up with an economic setup that did not allow you to join an organization, unless you got hard equity in it, and the amount of equity you could have had a minimum of 1%.

So everyone worked for their own organizations and were incentivized for their success, and organizations couldn’t grow too big (100 people at most).

So you had lots of small organizations with well developed interfaces between them, because there were so many of them. And you could still acquire huge wealth, just couldn’t be a monopoly.

I mean its just sci-fi thought experiment, but it got me thinking maybe there are better economic systems out there, both equitable and free market based …

hcarvalhoalves
0 replies
22m

came up with an economic setup that did not allow you to join an organization, unless you got hard equity in it, and the amount of equity you could have had a minimum of 1%.

Wow… we’re so deep into capitalism that worker cooperatives is a sci-fi concept now.

pimlottc
0 replies
1h18m

To be clear, the Fight Club 2 limited comic series was indeed published in 2015 and concluded in 2016 after 10 issues, which have been collected into a graphic novel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight_Club_2

dheera
3 replies
2h49m

The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization.

It depends a lot on whether you own the organization in entirety or not.

I could have a business that operates for 5 years, own 100% of it, then shut it down because of loss of market interest and not wanting to pivot it to a direction that I personally disagree with just for the sake of keeping the business alive.

I could consider it a 5-year success and just be happy with that.

If investors are involved it's a totally different story.

WalterBright
2 replies
2h10m

If investors are involved it's a totally different story.

Well, when you take their money, they'll want a return on their investment.

dheera
1 replies
2h2m

Yeah totally. Just saying that TFA's thesis doesn't necessarily apply if the founder is mission-driven and 100% owns the organization. They might actually value the mission over the organization and be content when the mission is fulfilled.

As a founder mindset person if I could bootstrap a business that gets me $50 million by curing cancer I'd be MORE THAN HAPPY to just retire on that $50 million, and open source all the IP so that anyone can make the drugs. I don't have a desire to be a billionaire over curing cancer.

However, if you give up ownership during the process, things change. You have fiduciary duty to investors that would be violated if you just gave up all future revenue and open sourced everything. It would have to be a bootstrapped business in order to do the above.

WalterBright
0 replies
1h5m

You might change your mind if/when you reach $50m. Whatever one has becomes one's "new normal" and the goal posts just move.

BTW, I open sourced my IP :-)

ericfr11
2 replies
2h56m

Sounds like the law of Capitalism: an "entrepreneur" will hire low-cost workers - called developers, designers, specialists (usually dedicated to the goals), and exploit resources to get extremely rich

tarsinge
0 replies
2h39m

No this is a more general law applicable to every human organization. The second group can be the party members, shareholders, etc…

WalterBright
0 replies
2h3m

If you hire high cost workers, you go out of business. If you higher too-low cost workers, your competitors hire them away and you go out of business.

u32480932048
0 replies
3h18m

I've heard this stated in a simpler form: that every institution eventually evolves to serve and protect its own interests first and foremost. My dad always used the term "petty fiefdoms".

I like to think it was the awful "Type II" people who insisted that "wasn't a thing", but it was probably the innocence and naiveté of the Type I's.

pinkmuffinere
0 replies
1h38m

I don't know if this is really true, but it does feel true. And I worry there are no easy paths for the first kind of person. One option is to persist devoted to the cause, and try to put up with the pain of being in that organization, potentially changing the organization's path after much effort. Another option is to quit and go it alone / start a new organization, but that's quite hard too.

neycoda
0 replies
29m

Also the 2nd group will game the system to funnel a bigger percentage of the income to themselves while raising prices on students.

kaycebasques
0 replies
3h54m

Another great related insight from Systemantics (see other thread below)

For Every Human System, There Is A Type Of Person Adapted To Thrive On It. There are some attributes that are probably necessary for survival in any system, but each system has some uniqueness in the sense that it attracts different traits. It’s hard to tell what traits any given system attracts. The traits do not necessarily align with successful operation of the system itself e.g. the qualities for being elected president don’t necessarily align with the ability to run the country effectively. Systems not only attract people who will succeed within the system but also people with parasitic traits that thrive at the expense of the system. “Efforts to remove parasitic Systems-people by means of screening committees, review boards, and competency examinations merely generate new job categories for such people to occupy.”
derefr
0 replies
2h54m

Another way to say that is:

• The first group sees something in the world as wrong / broken / requiring change, or just "could be better"; they see themselves as a force for that change; and they see any organization they're a part of, as infrastructure to enable/multiply their force. To these people, the organization is only relevant/valuable as long as it is providing leverage for individuals like them "on the front lines" to accomplish change. To these people, "everything staying the way it is" is an awful concept — if they were willing to accept things as they were, they wouldn't have bothered to become $profession! They will consider their life wasted if things don't end up changing for the better!

• The second group sees nothing wrong with the world, because (in part) they see those frontline people working toward positive change, to be an inherent part of the equilibrium-state of the world. They do think the problem is a problem worth solving! (That's probably why they gravitated to this industry.) But they think that "things are going great" in addressing the problem, insofar as there are these other people who are willing to "fight the good fight." They don't think it matters much whether any particular individual is involved in that fight, as long as in aggregate "people who are motivated to solve the problem" are minted faster than they burn out. People in this group don't feel motivated to be directly involved in solving the problem; and they also aren't much concerned with "losing" people who are directly involved — since they believe that there will always be new "new blood" coming in with a fresh reserve of morale.

The first group ("vocationals") will focus on the work to the exclusion of maintaining the organization. In a crisis, they will let the organization fall apart so that the work can continue happening.

The second group ("professionals") knows this, and thinks this is silly — to them, the work will always get done soon enough (because, if vocational A can't do it, vocationals B/C/D will feel compelled to pick up their slack, at their own expense.) But the organization itself might become paralyzed or fall apart — which these people believe would prevent the work from happening for a much longer time. So they dedicate themselves to keeping the organization functioning — which often involves cutting costs (i.e. making the first group's lives harder), imposing regulations (i.e. punishing the first group for the times they go above-and-beyond to get the work done at the organization's expense), etc.

These groups are rarely aligned, because their world-views are rarely aligned.

It can happen, though. If it becomes clear that the number of people in the first group is declining over time, such that the organization cannot simply rely on "new blood" — then the second group's behavior toward the first group changes dramatically.

aeturnum
0 replies
3h4m

My favorite way of thinking about this is that every undertaking needs people to carry it out and logistical demands. The people who do the work ('technicians') are focused on accomplishing the specific goal, they are often poorly suited to secure resources for the entire group. On the flip side, those who focus on logistics ('administrators') are isolated from the underlying goal. They invest their time into work that, by necessity, relies on an abstracted notion about the details of the work.

This creates conditions where the administrators are always at risk of self-dealing and of mis-understanding self-dealing as supporting the underlying work. The technicians can self-deal as well, but because they are not in charge of coordinating resources across the org, the impact is smaller. It's easy to accuse any particular technician who disagrees that it's the technician who lacks a sufficiently wide view (and in fact this is always a danger). Selfish people who want to secure resources for themselves thrive in this area - but the situation does not require selfishness to become degenerate.

__MatrixMan__
0 replies
29m

Corollary: we have to kill these organizations off every now and then so that the herd doesn't get too ossified.

JumpCrisscross
0 replies
2h43m

there will be those dedicated to the organization itself

The Iron Law holds. The article’s title does not. The way bureaucracies survive is by mutating their goals.

The examples are numerous: the March of Dimes [1], every successful referendum movement, every country with clean drinking water. The author’s mistake is in interpreting opposition as preservation.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_of_Dimes

kaycebasques
33 replies
5h10m

Systemantics by John Gall has some insightful and surprising gems that feel related to The Shirky Principle, I guess because they're both related to complex wetware systems.

Complex Systems Tend To Oppose Their Own Proper Function. My favorite axiom. Your city has a problem with trash building up on the streets so it sets up a waste management company. The company starts out by collecting trash daily, but then they shift to a Tuesday-only schedule. Next, you get a notice saying that the company will no longer service your building unless you buy their standardized garbage cans (to ensure that the robotic arms on their trucks can pick them up). Eventually, the waste management union goes on strike and the trash starts piling up on the street again anyways.

People In Systems Do Not Do What The System Says They Are Doing. The stated purpose of a king is to rule a country, but in reality they spend a lot of time fighting off usurpers.

This one feels related to the Shirky Principle:

A System Continues To Do Its Thing, Regardless Of Need. The Selective Service System continues to require all 18-year-old male US citizens to register for the draft, even though the US hasn’t had a draft in 51 years.

https://www.biodigitaljazz.net/blog/systemantics.html (one of my many blogs)

matkoniecz
8 replies
4h17m

even though the US hasn’t had a draft in 51 years

That smuggles an assumption that US will never have draft again

ysofunny
6 replies
4h16m

maybe the American way to have a draft is to fight a civil war?

babyshake
5 replies
3h15m

It seems as though there is essentially no scenario where the American public would accept a mandatory draft. Times have changed.

ryandrake
1 replies
2h48m

It will happen, and the American people will accept it, for the same reasons they accept tons of things today that are done against their best interests: Ideological divisions and loyalty, propaganda saturation, fear of an outside enemy, (possibly) religion, and the general desire to use the political system to punish "others" rather than help themselves.

JumpCrisscross
0 replies
2h35m

will happen, and the American people will accept it

America will automate warfare before that happens.

fallingknife
1 replies
3h5m

Seemed that way in 1940 too

hannasanarion
0 replies
1h31m

Did it? Every single person who was draft-eligible in 1940 was born before WW1 ended.

ysofunny
0 replies
2h57m

all I'm saying is how mandatorily drafting people to go fight a war in another continent is extremely hard

whereas getting people to fight in a way that's happening near YOUR (meaning their particular case) state border is super easy, barely an inconvenience

vajrabum
0 replies
2h39m

It also maybe implies that the selective service is responsible for it's own funding and ignores that it's entire a creature of DoD and Congress. It's hardly a bureaucracy run amok for its own purposes. The funding in 2022 was $31.7M. DoD has a lot of contingency plans and that's not a lot of money to spend to fund one of them even if the likelihood putting it into action is small.

johnchristopher
6 replies
3h36m

Complex Systems Tend To Oppose Their Own Proper Function. My favorite axiom. Your city has a problem with trash building up on the streets so it sets up a waste management company. The company starts out by collecting trash daily, but then they shift to a Tuesday-only schedule. Next, you get a notice saying that the company will no longer service your building unless you buy their standardized garbage cans (to ensure that the robotic arms on their trucks can pick them up). Eventually, the waste management union goes on strike and the trash starts piling up on the street again anyways.

That analogy is bit weak because strikes don't go on forever and trash pickings always resume. The city is not in the same state of perpetual trash everywhere it was in before setting up/contracting the waste management company.

renewiltord
3 replies
2h50m

The purpose of the waste management company is not to manage waste, it is to gain control of waste management. That's the difference.

If you have a problem, often your solution just means you have the same problem but now lack the agency to control it.

Once the waste management company has control, they can then extract the majority of surplus from the problem being solved so that if your cost if the problem is unsolved is x, your cost if the problem is solved becomes x-ε.

The surplus ε shrinks as the waste management company gains more control of the process. With sufficient control, ε can even go negative.

The net result is that you have not created surplus for yourself. You have just found someone to transfer the surplus to.

johnchristopher
1 replies
2h9m

The surplus ε shrinks as the waste management company gains more control of the process. With sufficient control, ε can even go negative.

The net result is that you have not created surplus for yourself. You have just found someone to transfer the surplus to.

That's a good argument for bigger governments instead of a governments hiring private entities whose only goals are to capture surplus :).

renewiltord
0 replies
2h5m

Government departments are not immune to this structure. It's a fundamental property of organizations. It's why you'll find empire building in private companies too.

wongarsu
0 replies
1h26m

Interestingly, this happens even if you remove the profit motive, say by making it a government entity or a non-profit with fixed pay structure. The surplus just goes into diffuse inefficiencies instead of being efficiently channeled into someones pocket.

Maybe it's just that people still profit from bigger organizations by means of prestige, influence, etc. Whatever the cause, most organizations seem to try to grow to the size equivalent to the value of the solution, not the cost of delivering the solution.

kaycebasques
0 replies
3h7m

I don't think Gall would disagree with you. He says "systems tend to oppose their own function". He doesn't flat-out say "systems don't work." He would probably explain its functioning in terms of these axioms:

A Simple System, Designed From Scratch, Sometimes Works.

A Complex System That Works Is Invariably Found To Have Evolved From A Simple System That Works.

He might also direct your attention to this one:

The Total Amount Of Anergy In The Universe Is Constant. Gall defines anergy as the negative of energy. See also clonal anergy. “The sum total of problems facing the community has not changed. They have merely changed their form and relative importance.”

You have reduced the trash on the streets, but where did you shift the anergy by reducing the "trash-on-street" issue?

The real fun IMO is contemplating all the other axioms in combination with the trash collection system:

New Systems Mean New Problems.

You started out with a trash problem, and now you've got a union problem. Maybe also a powerful mafia-connected monopoly problem.

The Bigger The System, The Narrower And More Specialized The Interface With Individuals.

To the waste collection company I am surely just an address, 1 trash bin, 1 recycling bin, and 1 compost bin.

InSteady
0 replies
1h11m

Also weird example because it's basically describing the process of improving efficiency.. picking up trash every day is a waste of human resources and petroleum. Non-standard cans waste the potential benefits of automation. Poor labor relations are wasteful by hoarding the benefit of an enterprise away from the workers who make it a viable endeavor, and shunting responsibility for the workers' healthcare, retirement, safety nets, and wellbeing onto society.

MichaelZuo
4 replies
4h17m

Eventually, the waste management union goes on strike and the trash starts piling up on the street again anyways.

Isn't that just free association?

Unless they signed a binding agreement that prohibited striking whatsoever, I can't see why they shouldn't be able to.

brookst
3 replies
4h12m

I didn’t see a moral judgment against striking, just an observation that the elaborate systems set up to collect trash sometimes end up intentionally not collecting trash.

MichaelZuo
2 replies
3h27m

The union and its member's intentions sure, not the intention of the overall 'elaborate system'. Because the union and its member are only components of the larger system.

i.e. A system that doesn't take into account the free association of its components is incoherent.

brookst
1 replies
3h15m

I think you’re missing the original point. It was nothing about unions or free association. In fact, the point was that ALL systems become incoherent as they scale.

The existence of unions and free association is built-in to the argument that systems designed to pick up trash sometimes intentionally do not pick up trash.

It’s not a moral judgment that these systems are broken and therefore workers should be slaves. It is an acknowledgment that complex systems end up having to meet conflicting priorities and therefore become, as you say, incoherent.

PaulDavisThe1st
0 replies
2h24m

Failure to collect trash during a strike is not "becoming incoherent as [it] scale[s]".

Failure to collect trash under certain conditions is not a failure of a trash collecting system.

Inability to regularly collect trash is the failure mode we're concerned about.

cratermoon
2 replies
3h11m

Gall mentions the example of an organization founded to conquer polio. With that disease all but eradicated, the foundation almost collapsed, but instead changed the goal to conquer genetic defects. Very little changed about what the organization did, and the new goal is one that isn't likely to ever be completely achieved.

matthewdgreen
1 replies
2h16m

That doesn’t seem like an entirely bad thing, though. Once you have an organization built up to solve a problem, shifting those resources into solving another problem is a reasonable next step. This is not the same as TFA, which talks about organizations preventing the problem from being solved.

cratermoon
0 replies
1h27m

That doesn’t seem like an entirely bad thing, though.

Not at all. It's an example of a good pivot. Probably Gall thought it rare enough to mention it in a book otherwise full of wisdom about how systems go wrong.

electrondood
1 replies
4h39m

This was exactly what came to mind. Thanks for posting the reference

kaycebasques
0 replies
4h8m

Great book. I learned from its Wikipedia page that the author (John Gall) pitched 30 different publishers, got rejected by all of them, and then published it himself. It got discussed in academic papers and then the New York Times picked it up. And we're still talking about it 50 years later. Given that the central theme of the book is "systems barely work" I very much like to imagine Gall taking all of the rejections in stride because he was able to view the publishers as just another system that has its own goals and perhaps isn't really working as it should.

Aurornis
1 replies
4h1m

The stated purpose of a king is to rule a country, but in reality they spend a lot of time fighting off usurpers.

This quote applies to more than the people at the top. I thought office backstabbing and power plays happened at the senior management level when I was young, which left me unprepared for how much subterfuge and infighting came from ICs trying to be king of their little circle within a company. Recognizing and getting away from the people who compete by putting others down is a valuable skill in the workplace for anyone, not just the king.

kaycebasques
0 replies
3h55m

Yes, totally applies to everyone within the system. When I first read that I immediately started pondering how my actual work is different than my stated role. The example of the king is just the most quickly grokkable example IMO

fallingknife
0 replies
3h5m

Selective service is a terrible example because it is designed to draft for an unknown future war, not for a current one.

dweinus
0 replies
1h39m

Your city has a problem with trash

...doesn't that entire problem rest on the fact that the unstated goal is to pick up the trash at the lowest cost labor will bear? That yields service reduction, automation, and labor disputes. When you look at it that way, the organization is seeking the goal, not fighting it. I think there is truth in the general idea, but a correlary that no one sees value in continuing to solve a problem that has been solved once. They always imagine it will get cheaper, meanwhile those who create expertise in it see themselves as more valuable with time, and that creates tension.

brookst
0 replies
4h14m

It feels similar to the way agile development sometimes ossifies into rigid processes that defeat the purpose.

Humans just seem wired to want to find “the solution” and the call things done.

121789
0 replies
3h52m

These all boil down to “any collection of organisms will act the same as one organism”. It will focus on survival and self interest first. It’s an emergent property from the incentives of the (potentially well-meaning) individuals

Useful for thinking through questions like “does my organization/city/etc need this new team/committee/department to exist?”

paulsutter
10 replies
4h59m

This explains a lot about the effectiveness of San Francisco's $600M in spending on drug addiction/homelessness, the spend and problem seem to increase together

electriclove
9 replies
4h50m

Homeless Industrial Complex

malfist
8 replies
4h45m

Please tell me, what companies are involved in the "homeless industrial complex" and what industrial product do they produce?

gruez
1 replies
2h48m

The Colorado Coalition For The Homeless received 122M in 2023. In 2021, the CEO made $313K. The top 6 people make over $200K a year. All of this from a non-profit.

What's the typical salary for a CEO of a for-profit company that has 122M in revenues? While I can understand why people are outraged at the prospect of people getting money from a non-profit, it's unrealistic to expect everyone to be volunteers. Besides the question of how they'd financially support themselves, you have the problem of "pay peanuts, get monkeys".

toomim
0 replies
2h28m

You're losing the point. It's not outrage at the amount they are paid. It's outrage at the Shirky Principle-- they are incentivized to keep the homelessness problem going and growing.

fragmede
1 replies
1h28m

I don't know that high executive salaries are evidence of anything other than theres an executive class which exists, even in the non-profit world. You'll need to come up with better arguments that there's a homeless-industrial complex, which there very much is, but complaining that the leader of a 700-person organized doesn't deserve more than a low end FAANG shows a very naive understanding of how the world works. $313k is cheap for that kind of work. A CEO for a 700-person strong tech company makes well into a million dollars a year, counting equity. Complaining that executives make a lot of money at a non-profit is like complaining that things cost money in the first place. there is a need for someone to do job X. people who do job X cost $xxx/hr. it doesn't matter the context of that job, whether it's running a business, managing armed forces, saving the homeless, or writing a web browser, that's what that job pays.

A better argument for there being a homeless-industrial complex would to say there are incentives for organizations to expand operations rather than fix problems, and then give examples where organizations didn't fix problems because it would result in their lowered funding.

4RealFreedom
0 replies
4m

The question poised was what companies are invloved as part of the homeless industrial complex and what do they produce.

nindalf
0 replies
3h22m

It goes something like this. Well meaning people join government to solve the problem (homelessness). They can't do it on their own so they allocate money to local charities that run services for homeless, like soup kitchens and shelters. Two things happen

1. if homeless didn't exist anymore, these kitchens and shelters would have to shut down. The volunteers are fine with it, they'll volunteer elsewhere. But the permanent employees would be laid off. Understandably, they want to remain employed. So they're incentivised to not search for a durable solution to the homelessness problem.

2. The people in government realise the problem isn't getting solved, so they leave government and form their own think tanks/charities or institutions to solve the problem. They have connections in government (their former co-workers) which they use to get funding. Now there's another company in the homeless industrial complex.

nindalf
9 replies
4h54m

The UNRWA, the UN Agency for helping Palestinian refugees has been accused of perpetuating their misery - (The real problem with the UN’s agency for Palestinians, The Economist https://archive.is/c7Pop).

cobbzilla
3 replies
4h3m

Good example, effectively the UN-funded wing of Hamas. UN doesn’t want to admit their control is loose or absent in places. Hamas enjoys using it as a successful jobs program for residents, a bomb-resistant place to stash their stuff, and PR mouthpiece. Absent any desire by either party to change this arrangement, it persists.

sorokod
0 replies
2h7m

You are probably thinking about UNRWA:

UNRWA's budget is set by the UN General Assembly and derives almost entirely from voluntary contributions by UN member states.

with US being the biggest contributor.

hef19898
0 replies
3h59m

Bold claim, bold claim. Any proof of that? Other than Israel's "Trust me, bro"?

ImHereToVote
2 replies
4h20m

Accused by who? The ones that need to legitimize the massacre?

nindalf
1 replies
2h37m

Accused by the Economist in this case. But they quote Palestinians who say the same.

enterprise_cog
0 replies
58m

They quote one Palestinian and his quote can be interpreted as a call for a two or one state solution. It is an empty statement without more context.

jfengel
0 replies
4h23m

Unfortunately that is a deep and complex problem. There are a lot of forces that are using the Palestinians as a stick with which to harass Israel, in part to deflect from their own human rights abuses.

The result is a set of permanent mutual grievance. An intractable problem may now be utterly insoluble.

Georgelemental
0 replies
3h45m

This phenomenon (institutions helping to preserve their nominal enemy) has been omnipresent on both sides of the Israel-Palestine conflict. For example:

Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas.

- Benjamin Netanyahu, 2015

The PA is a liability and Hamas is an asset. On the international playing field in this game of delegitimization, think about for a second, the PA is a liability and Hamas is an asset. It’s a terrorist organization. Nobody will recognize it, nobody will give it status at the ICC [International Criminal Court] and nobody will let them push resolutions at the UN [causing us to] need an American veto. … I’m not sure at all that given the current situation, given the current fact that the central playing field we’re playing in is international, Abu Mazen (Abbas) is costing us serious [PR or political] casualties and Hamas in such a situation would be an asset. I don’t think we need to be afraid of [Hamas].

- Bezalel Smotrich, 2015

https://original.antiwar.com/scott/2023/10/27/netanyahus-sup...

yukkuri
8 replies
5h21m

There is a trap here of saying "thus we shouldn't do anything about problems" rather than the more reasonable "we should be prepared to iterate on our efforts".

wahnfrieden
5 replies
5h19m

It’s more a criticism of top-down hierarchical control of institutions (at any scale) than it is an indictment of humans cooperating around some goal

Cui bono makes that clear

zaik
4 replies
5h1m

But note how all the examples were private companies or enterprising individuals who weren't controlled somehow, but simply wanted to protect their profits.

smallmancontrov
3 replies
4h43m

The political right uses multiple deca-billion-dollar megaphones to talk nonstop about this problem as it relates to the government while dramatically underrepresenting the extent to which it happens in the private sector so that they can lobby for privatization as a silver-bullet. I think it's fair for the article to shore up the complementary point of view. No less fair than what the right is doing, at any rate.

calvinmorrison
2 replies
4h33m

Well the difference is, tax slaves are forced at the end of a barrel to prop up local governments, and purportedly don't do that for free markets

smallmancontrov
0 replies
4h16m

Private ownership of land and capital is also enforced at the barrel of a gun, lol.

When monopolies are common, every business school student openly aspires to rent-seeking moats, and regulators snore more loudly every day, the claims that the private market is checked by competition frequently ring hollow. The big difference between public and private sector is that the private sector has literally entitled themselves to this rent seeking behavior, while it's only a metaphor in the public sector.

Don't get me wrong, I think competition is a brilliant principle and I think markets are the place to make it happen, I just think that strong anticompetitive forces are common natural occurrences in free markets and I think that the government should play a stronger role in checking them.

TheOtherHobbes
0 replies
4h27m

How much is health insurance compared to local taxes?

jjjjj55555
0 replies
4h56m

Often times there's nothing to iterate on because the original solution was BS.

jaystraw
0 replies
4h28m

you're right. i think that's the difference between cynicism and consideration. one immobilizes, one prepares.

nudgeee
7 replies
5h16m

Not just institutions, individuals too. I’ve seen many individuals ‘dig their heels’ into protecting their own pet project/baby/solution/etc, mainly due to ego.

It takes maturity and humility to step back, assess objectively, trade off pros and cons, and ultimately let the best decisions, ideas and solutions win, even when it’s hard to give up your idea or a solution you’ve worked super hard on.

tux1968
4 replies
5h5m

It takes maturity and humility to step back

It also takes energy, focus, and intellectual capacity. All of which are being removed from the current effort at hand. There is a real cost to continually reevaluating the situation. Sometimes you just have to put your head down and plow ahead.

This is why having competition is so powerful. Someone will likely be working hard at the right problem using the right strategy.

There is no perfect strategy that will always result in using the fewest resources to generate the best solution. We have to accept inefficiencies and wasted efforts.

TheOtherHobbes
3 replies
4h25m

You don't solve perverse incentives with competition if the competition rewards perverse incentives.

Competition isn't a panacea that makes everything bad go away.

It's almost an institution in its own right, and is just as likely to suffer from Shirky-like problems as anything else.

soks86
1 replies
3h4m

How else can you possibly solve it?

Competition solves everything.

Who gets to mate with who has been answered by competition our entire existence.

Striving for non-violent, yet fair, competition is what advancing the world is about.

alexashka
0 replies
1h13m

You've described cats. Now describe humans.

tux1968
0 replies
3h17m

Competition isn't a panacea that makes everything bad go away.

Nobody said it did.

I'm not making a moral claim, i'm saying that it is a matter of reality that nobody can predict the future perfectly and that effort from any individual is a limited resource. So it makes sense sometimes for an individual to just press on in the direction they've chosen, and not "waste" time reevaluating too often.

You can either have one central authority that dictates a single direction, and forces all effort down a single path. Or you can have a more diffuse strategy that explores the solution space in multiple directions simultaneously. Competition, in the context I was referring to it, is basically just the difference between breadth first, or depth first search. I wasn't making a claim about what motivated the search in the first place.

breck
1 replies
1h58m

individuals ‘dig their heels’ into protecting their own pet project/baby/solution/etc, mainly due to ego.

Guilty of this.

I worked for about a decade on a pet project to find a new family of computer languages designed for both humans and machines.

I did not think machines were close to mastering our languages, and new languages were needed.

I knew my approach was a long shot, but if I found a way to make it work the upside was huge.

Then LLMs happened. The possible upside of my approach dropped dramatically.

I have been trying to "rewire" my brain and re-purpose the neurons that evolved over a decade to keep turning my approach around from different perspectives. It is very hard.

It is easy to get a sapling to grow into a desired shape. It is much harder to reshape a fully grown tree. Just the physic of it.

To tie this back to the original article, if you model an individual's brain like Minsky's Society of Mind, you would have neural agents that create a circuit ("Institution") to solve a problem, and some of those agents focus on the task of preserving that circuit. Without those Institution preserving neurons, you would never keep the circuit going long enough to see through a contrarian idea. But the downside is that the organization will persist even when it is no longer a good bet.

User3456335
0 replies
3m

Tbf, half the linguistics discipline thought that language's grammar was somehow hardcoded into our brain, which is clearly ridiculous if you look at how LLMs work, so you're not the only one who had misconceptions.

Perhaps you can turn your idea around slightly into finding a language that finds a balance between formality and universality, rather than computers and humans. Because even though computers now speak our language they do not use it in a logical way at all (arguably because we humans don't).

And while mathematics is very formal it has a lot of trouble expressing ideas from different branches that aren't as formal. Things like fuzzy logics have been created and many things like that but they are still very much on the formal side.

Perhaps you could even derive an academic language for a specific field, perhaps standardizing between synonymous constructions. You could even use LLMs to accelerate the process. Maybe LLMs are a good thing that makes your work easier!

unethical_ban
5 replies
5h22m

It's a good article for those who are unfamiliar with these cautionary tales of second order effects and fraud. As someone who believes government is a solution to many problems, these lessons are critical.

I disagree with the universality of the statement "any institution made to solve a problem will preserve it". They back off this in the caveats section.

Two important things to prevent this is to consider the influence of money on a solution/organization, and what kind of oversight is needed for an organization. Also, when spinning up a program, asking "is the problem this org solves a permanent one?" Or can the problem be eradicated?

A group created to clean up trash in a city park system might need to be large one year, but practically non-existent 5 years later if goals are met. The planned decommissioning of such organizations should be considered.

christkv
2 replies
5h13m

If the mandarins salaries and livelihood depend on it they will move mountains to sustain the institution. This is human nature. The problem with public institutions is that they fase few external pressures. A company will eventually die and history is littered by the corpses of former industry titans. Public institutions on the other hand.

yukkuri
1 replies
5h2m

Yeah like all those external pressures that have kept private mega corps from polluting, monopolizing, pervasively surveiling, brutally exploiting labor, and generating false "science" that maintains their dominance even in the face of huge global negative effects... Oh, wait...

christkv
0 replies
38m

In comparison to what? The pristine environmental record of the soviet union, north korea, cuba, venezuela, communist east europe, cambodia, vietnam, china etc...

yukkuri
0 replies
5h14m

Yes, sadly this is an easy way for people to dishonestly claim to themselves and others that any attempt to solve problems (other than the "problem" of how to generate ever greater wealth disparity which somehow never gets included in this) is completely worthless

jeroenhd
0 replies
4h41m

I think it's when there's no (need for an) exit strategy for the people working for institutions set up for solvable problems (i.e. reducing the inflated housing prices, restructuring other institutions) you get the self preservation effect.

That's why for-profit, non-government/community anything is so terrible at solving problems. Charities spending 80% of the money you give them on marketing efforts. For-profit prisons in general. Self-regulation of most industries. The whole plastic recycling farce. Unless your institution is built with a real intent to solve a problem, and the people put in charge actually care, you get a self-serving institute. That doesn't just happen in private institutions either, corrupt governments accepting bribes and operating on nepotism also tend to set up useless institutions that just serve as job mills for friends or government officials.

A group created to clean up trash in a city park will exist forever if the mayor hires their nephew to run it because he was too incompetent to find a job himself.

supafastcoder
4 replies
3h30m

There’s no such thing as a broken system, every system is perfectly aligned to achieve the results it currently gets.

kjkjadksj
2 replies
3h23m

By that definition if I crumple a ball of paper and throw it and it goes 7 feet, I’ve engineered a physical marvel of an object that goes exactly that distance.

forgetfreeman
1 replies
3h2m

While absurd this is accurate. Incidentally, in the 5th grade I won (and was disqualified from) a school-wide paper airplane contest. The rules as presented prior to the contest:

- No design constraints specified, your paper airplane could be any style that suited you.

- paper airplanes must be constructed from a single sheet of paper (no size limit specified)

- weighting was allowed (no weight limit specified)

The day of the contest I walked out into the middle of the school gym with a single large sheet of construction paper and a dollar and fifty cents in quarters in my pocket. I placed the quarters in the middle of the paper then carefully crumpled it into a ball in such a way to ensure the coins were trapped. I then threw it the full length of the gym and out the gym doors, tripling the closest best distance. I was immediately pulled aside by several teachers and informed I was disqualified, with no reasons for the disqualification given. Moral: none that I can discern.

diracs_stache
0 replies
11m

Independent thinking like that could never be encouraged or rewarded in a place designed to produce just smart enough replacement labor. Hell, equivalent stunts in places like university or the workplace wouldn't necessarily end up in your favor (similar arbitration resulting in the organizations desired outcome likely being the case).

exabrial
4 replies
3h38m

I can think of no better example of than the US Postal Service.

They’re literally is zero reason in 2024 why are we cutting down trees using diesel fuel to ship paper to a mill using coal to make it into paper using more diesel fuel to ship it to my home to be trashed picked up by a dump truck, using more diesel fuel to be thrown in a giant pile on what it would’ve been otherwise pristine piece of land.

johnchristopher
0 replies
3h34m

I don't think the US Postal Service is responsible for the quantity of paper people are shipping to your doorstep, neither for the disposal of that pile of paper in a giant pile etc.

fragmede
0 replies
1h49m

The existence of Amazon's shipping department, UPS, FedEx, DHL, among others, says that people still want to ship physical items around, despite is living in a digital age.

dambi0
0 replies
3h23m

What proportion of your trash is made up of mail?

Angostura
0 replies
3h34m

To be clear, you believe that everyone in the US is sufficuently digitally savvy and well equipped with digital technology that paper is no-longer needed? Have you tried volunteering with your local town's digital champion/digital mentoring programme, if they exist? Yoiu may find it it interesting

charles_f
4 replies
4h18m

municipal authorities, who realized that their best efforts at dératisation [extermination of rats] had actually increased the rodent population

I live in a complex of town houses. We have lots of rats and mice. This is seemingly an unsolvable problem, and our pest control company keeps adding poison traps, but the problem does not go away. They blame government, because the poison they are allowed to put in their doesn't kill the mice, (as this could kill eagles or other animals eating the mice).

We ended up buying our own standard issue traps lately that either slap them to death, or drown them, and the problem is getting better. Makes you question why the pest control company didn't do that. Or not, we know why.

roncesvalles
3 replies
3h48m

I've always had a gut feeling that if the best solution to a pest problem is to buy a $10 spray from Home Depot and spray it around your house in 10 minutes, a pest control company is never going to do it because it doesn't make them look like pros.

I wonder then which other processes are "held back" at a certain level of complexity only because if made simpler, the optics of the process would devalue the people who charge money to do it. Oil and filter changes?

yallpendantools
1 replies
2h21m

I'm gonna have to play advocate here for The Institution over The Individual. The jobs you mentioned (pest control, basic car maintenance) exist because a lot of people can't be bothered to learn how to do it properly.

(Or, to put it more cynically: a lot of people are idiots. Like, a lot. Cue the quote about the average man and the thought that half of humanity is dumber than that...)

A lot of things can go wrong with the $10 spray you bought from Home Depot. You could end up spraying it where you're not supposed to and at best you end up poisoned in the ICU, at worst you contaminate your area's water supply. You could spray it on a lazy Saturday afternoon but you forgot about your dog who loves to lick the floor; at best you end up with a very expensive vet bill, at worst your dog then licks your kids in the face and you end up with a dead dog and a dead kid.

To be clear, I'm not saying your gut feeling is wrong; I'd probably do the same, honestly. But it most certainly doesn't apply to everyone.

Further, oil and filter changes might be super easy, barely an inconvenience but you could end up not resealing and tightening a valve or a nut enough and the worst time to find that out is when you're doing 100KPH on a highway. Don't even get me started about people who think they could save money by using olive oil where they are supposed to use a specific type of coating grease or lubricant; after all, they buy olive oil from the grocery once every month so, as a car maintenance item, it's "basically free".

These people are not only a danger to themselves. They are a danger to everyone they share a road (or a residential area) with.

Of course, having an industry around these tasks doesn't eliminate the possibility of these dumb outcomes but having "professionals" who are have read the fabulous manual and are regulated put them head and shoulders above J. Handyman Smith when doing said job. Emphasis on regulated, we give that far less credit than it deserves. You might have also read the fabulous manual but if you are not regulated, not beholden to a specific standard or process, how do I even check you didn't cut corners? If you mess up somewhere, how can you and everyone else even begin to assess the magnitude of your fuck-up and thereby respond appropriately?

roncesvalles
0 replies
1h24m

This is true but kind of tangential. My point was even for the pest control company if it were a 10 minute job, they wouldn't do it that way because the "spectacle of professionalism" that justifies the prices they charge (and perhaps recurring revenue) is lost.

For oil changes it is completely conceivable for a user-serviceable system to be built in, making it not much more difficult than filling air in your tires at the gas station. But the manufacturers have a perverse incentive to not build it.

monsieurbanana
0 replies
3h1m

Software, websites

Lichtso
4 replies
5h15m

The article mentions this in the very end, but isn't the "Shirky principle" just a case of perverse incentives? Allocating a budget to solving a problem continuously does set the incentives to prolong the problem.

I wonder how much paying after the problem is solved would help vs. paying in advance as it is often done for agencies / institutions.

chiefalchemist
2 replies
5h11m

I wonder how much paying after the problem is solved would help vs. paying in advance as it is often done for agencies / institutions.

If only more government programs operated this way. Yet instead of (for example) a solution to poverty, we get The Poverty Industrial Complex.

malfist
1 replies
4h47m

Poverty is famously a one time, single solution issue. /s

chiefalchemist
0 replies
4h42m

It might be. How can we say when all be get are "solutions" that deepen it, perpetuate it, normalize it, etc.?

So yeah, I'm glad we agree. Thanks for proving my point.

Hint: Start by reading Matt Desmond's "Evicted" and then go from there.

Also, watch the Rob Redford film "The Candidate". Make note of how many of "the issues" - and the associated narratives - persist today. Imagine selling a product that promises a solution but ultimately only keeps selling you promises.

charles_f
0 replies
4h15m

There's more to it than that. That's the behaviour of protecting your dungeon. See the example of the bus company in Ontario.

GartzenDeHaes
4 replies
5h20m

Corporate rent seeking would seem to be a more prevalent example, even in the context of government. For example, most of the US defense budget goes directly to the military industrial media complex instead of the uniformed military.

lotsofpulp
2 replies
5h18m

For example, most of the US defense budget goes directly to the military industrial media complex instead of the uniformed military.

Source? I would be surprised if the highest category of military spend was not healthcare (including VA) plus salaries (including DB pensions) plus benefits, which is all payroll expense to employees.

lotsofpulp
0 replies
4h43m

Thanks for looking that up to confirm. My hunch was based on Medicare + Medicaid + Social Security eclipsing everything else in the US federal budget.

empath-nirvana
0 replies
4h54m

most of the US defense budget goes directly to the military industrial media complex

Even if it were true (which it isn't), most of the money that goes to contractors also goes to salaries.

jupp0r
3 replies
5h3m

Counter example: WHO and smallpox

supertrope
1 replies
4h56m

Also the March of Dimes. When humanity miraculously fixed their core issue they expanded their mission.

jupp0r
0 replies
4h0m

Good point, let's hope Polio is not coming back though and it gets eradicated completely eventually.

unglaublich
0 replies
4h46m

True, but smallpox is just an aspect of health. Solving smallpox leaves a lot of health related issues for WHO to focus on.

chiefalchemist
3 replies
5h13m

Nah. Correction: Institutions try to preserve themselves. That's the goal. That's the root problem. Once you understand the power of that belief, the behaviour, the rhetoric, etc. all becomes much clearer. The bullshit much easier to cut through. The fact the problems don't get solved is a "side effect" to self preservation.

unglaublich
2 replies
4h44m

Exactly. You should shape an environment where institutions _cannot_ exist if they don't solve the problem. E.g., 'no cure, no pay', set and fixed subsidies, under-performance penalties, competition.

chiefalchemist
1 replies
4h40m

Or at least put a finite deadline and/or other limits (e.g., budget) on the "project".

Instead we back unproven "solutions" and then keep throwing money at them in an insanity sorta way. Boggles the fucking mind.

catlifeonmars
0 replies
4h5m

Institutions are composed of people who expect to continue to get paid and therefore their incentives are aligned. If changing jobs was less costly it might alleviate the problem somewhat.

verisimi
2 replies
4h51m

Of course institutions preserve the problem - that is the reason for their existence - so they are in a fight for survival to keep a systemic problem going. It is even better for them if the institution has managed to enshrine its position in law, creating huge barriers to entry for any upstart that tries to come up with better solutions. Taxis, medicine, banking - there are so many examples.

If you ask me, a freer market is the answer - less intervention, allow simple economic forces to play out. But the inclination is to have more government meddling etc to fix the mess, which has the opposite effect that it was intended to have. This is such a common pattern however, one ought to be asking whether the "unintended effect" (of entrenching the problem) is in reality an "intended effect", with only lip service being paid to 'doing the right thing' to facilitate legal changes.

psychoslave
0 replies
1h27m

The so called free market tends to engender monopolies or oligopolies that will do their best to destroy any concurrency though.

Free market is the myth that can be thrown at plebeians to ashame them on their inability to compete with establishment, whatever the form it takes.

analog31
0 replies
3h47m

Ah, but a "freer market" is itself an artificial institution, subject to the same inescapable law.

siglesias
2 replies
2h10m

A while back when I noticed that many upscale gyms were offering high-calorie workout smoothies, shakes and bars. When I did the math, it happened that most of them would completely obliterate whatever workout you had just done (assuming your goal was calorie deficit)...thus prolonging the need for the gym.

tracerbulletx
0 replies
1h46m

Eh plenty of people are trying to bulk and those things are for them. I doubt that's a conspiracy, gyms want people who either pay and don't go, or if they do go they're probably more likely to stay if they get results than if they don't.

semitones
0 replies
1h53m

I see your reasoning but disagree with it being an example of the shirky principle.

Even once you get "really fit" you don't stop needing the gym, so I don't think "prolonging the need for the gym" is something a gym can actually do, or would want to do. If anything, it's the most fit people that have the most consistent gym habits.

On the contrary, to go off on your example, it might actually be _against_ the gym's interest to serve high calorie smoothies, the reason being that those pursuing a calorie deficit are likely to become discouraged by the lack of results over time, and would be more likely to abandon the gym altogether.

Gyms are usually optimized for weightlifting and equipment-based exercises, which typically lean more towards performance and hypertrophy/strength training, in which case you need high-calorie nutrient-dense foods to be able to actually see results.

However, yes, if you go there for a Zumba session to try to lose weight and then you have three smoothies, you are still gonna be gaining weight. (I'd argue this is still _not_ in the gym's best interest)

timmg
0 replies
4h56m

Ha! I'm sure I've heard of that before -- but didn't remember it.

Yesterday I came to this exact conclusion when talking about how things work at my job :/

adbachman
0 replies
4h5m

This is 100% accurate to my experience working as a software developer for the US federal government.

Important humanitarian mission (I worked in the asylum and refugee org) filled with true believers, dedicated civil servants with a heart for service, managed by career middle managers.

18F, USDS, interesting smaller contractors, and all the "innovation" orgs direct hiring software devs like me were aimed at supporting the mission, but it felt like they were never going to win over the system of 9 digit contacts to support the status quo.

alok-g
2 replies
2h44m

A story from a physicist friend working in a mid-size high-tech company:

There was a director-level organization of about 50 people trying to solve a technical research-level problem. The physicist found an innovative solution that was too simple and just worked. When he demonstrated it to everyone, he thought everyone would be very happy. On the contrary, his manager started having unexplained issues with him and he was shortly let go.

He has ultimately given up on corporate politics and is currently a physics teacher at a usual local college.

As the physics teacher, he found that the students in his class barely knew basic stuff (vector addition, etc.) from the pre-requisite courses. He tried to teach to cover up. He diligently and fairly checked the answers/solutions from the students in the mid-term exams, and found that practically no one passed.

He was shortly called by the college dean and heard back. The dean's primary concern was that irrespective of whether students actually learn or not, if so many fail the exams, the college would get shut down.

He is now forced to pass the students even while he realizes that by passing them now, he's setting them up for failure in the future if they actually pursue physics.

I surmise that if the Shirky Principle were to stop acting, say 80% of projects/institutions may just go away and should.

----

In some cases, it's even worse -- Institutions invent fake problems that they allege to be the solution for and then of course never solve them.

matthewdgreen
1 replies
2h11m

On the one hand, your friend could just be experiencing a streak of bad luck or a series of bad organizations. On the other hand, after many years of life experience, when I hear a (first or second hand) account that takes the form “of course I was the reasonable one in every case and these N organizations were clearly behaving like idiots”, I’ve learned to consider the possibility that the speaker is just unusually difficult. The larger the value of N, the more seriously I consider it. And I’ve learned this the hard way.

mturmon
0 replies
42m

Yes.

Besides “N”, another indicator you alluded to is the degree to which the aggrieved person is willing to take any responsibility for the outcome.

Sometimes gifted people can negotiate problems with a nervous college dean or engineering manager, so that their solution gets adopted. These problems exist in the world, and successful engineers will hopefully learn to cope with them.

alexwhb
2 replies
4h39m

Really interesting read. I’ve had this exact thought but not in a well defined sentence before. Especially regarding entities like turboTax or DoT (Departments of Transportation) where they will expand highways even though it’s a well known empirical fact that this typically causes induced demand or more traffic.

It’s really nice to have such a well defined principle to this idea.

thegrim33
0 replies
3h33m

I don't understand how people perpetuate that induced demand stuff. It absolutely falls apart if you think about it at all. So we shouldn't expand highways because it "induces demand/traffic"? So all of our cities and states should have kept their original one lane dirt roads and never improved on them, because expanding the dirt lanes would have induced demand and caused more traffic? Our transportation system would have been better / more effective with a couple of dirt roads and never expanding? It doesn't even remotely make sense.

Valid3840
0 replies
3h44m

Exactly what I had in mind. In the case of the DoT, I wonder what could be the solution there, some exterior safeguard? reducing fundings?

a1o
2 replies
5h10m

I don't understand why saying institutions and focusing on government, the current example I have in mind for this is Google relationship with search and Ads in the AI era.

zaik
1 replies
5h0m

Not one example given in this article was a government institution.

a1o
0 replies
4h10m

It's the second paragraph and when I stopped reading.

zubairq
1 replies
4h4m

I guess the principal "Institutions try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution" can apply to almost anything though, as really it is talking about "incentives"?

germandiago
0 replies
2h53m

Exactly. It is about incentives. Always. Every time. Any time.

unglaublich
1 replies
4h49m

Sounds like a lack of competition. Multiple entities should compete for providing the best solution, and the entities should be rewarded or penalized accordingly.

btbuildem
0 replies
3h15m

I'll give the Canadian telecom market as a counterexample: Multiple large providers (Rogers, Bell, Telus, Videotron to name the top four) instead of competing for customers and driving prices down, they have effectively colluded into an oligopoly - to the point of matching prices and plan details.

In this case we have multiple entities working together to maintain the existing problem, so they can collectively maximize profits.

ttoinou
1 replies
4h41m

Literally what Ivan Illich was saying 50 years ago when he talked about counterproductivity in institutions

mistrial9
0 replies
3h15m

credit to California's Jerry Brown and his media outreach for championing the work of Ivan Illich

sdeframond
1 replies
3h22m

Luncheon vouchers systems are run by private entities that take a fee on it. I believe the fee is pretty high (a shop owner told me 8%, but I am not too confident).

I definitely believe this system is outdated, that the tax-cut is eaten by said companies plus the extra burden and that the world would be a slightly simpler place without meal vouchers (at least as I know them in France).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meal_voucher

gruez
0 replies
2h45m

Any source that companies are actually paying a premium on this? Given that gift cards are sold at par or even at a discount, I'm skeptical that companies will pay a premium for what essentially are gift cards.

pjdesno
1 replies
4h54m

Spam email is another example.

There's a paper from Stefan Savage's group a while back where they were able to estimate overall revenue of a few big spam-generating pharma/counterfeit product networks, and it looks like the anti-spam industry is vastly bigger than the underground spam-generating industry, and had no desire to shut off the ultimate source of their revenues.

There's a reason we don't see many of those emails anymore, and it's not because of any action by anti-spam companies - it's because firms whose products were being counterfeited convinced the credit card companies to shut off the banks handling payments for these purchases. (most evidently went through a couple of banks in I think Azerbaijan) Evidently all the viagra spam was coming from people who also hawked fake Gucci stuff...

gruez
0 replies
2h54m

There's a paper from Stefan Savage's group a while back where they were able to estimate overall revenue of a few big spam-generating pharma/counterfeit product networks, and it looks like the anti-spam industry is vastly bigger than the underground spam-generating industry, and had no desire to shut off the ultimate source of their revenues.

This doesn't follow. The US army has a vastly bigger budget than the Taliban or Viet Cong, yet it still lost to them. Revenue is only a relevant factor when the battle is symmetric. For spam there's no reason to believe it is. Spammers are basically guerilla fighters because they operate as criminal networks in areas with lax law enforcement. What's the "anti-spam industry" supposed to do? Send in PMCs?

There's a reason we don't see many of those emails anymore

Yeah, they've been replaced with phishing emails and scams instead.

newman8r
1 replies
5h3m

I have to leave the example of police and police unions - which have very powerful lobbyists who try their darnedest to keep as many things illegal as possible.

kjkjadksj
0 replies
3h25m

Our firefighters, who also do ems, are currently battling a bike lane plan. I guess in places like Amsterdam with bike lanes huge swaths of city must burn down routinely if you believed the bull pedaled by our fire dept.

lawxls
1 replies
2h25m

It's funny that nobody mentions such an institution and how it was fixed. Elon Musk fired 80% of Twitter's employees, and it's better than ever.

sidibe
0 replies
2h15m

it's better than ever

As a product, I think you're in the minority if you think that. As a business, you are delusional if you think that.

gumby
1 replies
4h10m

The most general form of this is Upton Sinclair’s: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it”.

Though often the causes are not cynical or nefarious.

mistrial9
0 replies
3h18m

not wrong but - notice that this states a principle from the point of view of a single individual only. Certainly other "lenses", frameworks or mission statements are relevant?

ballenf
1 replies
5h14m

Legal barriers to entry and similar regulations are often the form entrenched players use to preserve their problem.

It's a hard balance to strike because the examples of harm from too little regulation make easy soundbites. But the costs of the certification are complex and difficult to quantify, albeit very real.

unglaublich
0 replies
4h47m

Maybe governments should provide 'pro deo' certification services for new players that wish to enter the market.

alexey-salmin
1 replies
4h55m

"The Thirteenth Voyage" of Ijon Tichy is quite an amusing read on the topic

johngossman
0 replies
4h31m

“The planet had once been beset by burning winds, which—the scientists said—threatened to turn it into one enormous desert. Therefore a great irrigational plan was adopted. To implement which, appropriate institutions and top-priority bureaus were set up; but then, after the network of canals and reservoirs had been completed, the bureaus refused to disband themselves and continued to operate, irrigating Pinta more and more.”

By the time Tichy arrives, people are being encouraged to breathe underwater.

— The Star Diaries: Further Reminiscences of Ijon Tichy

I’m surprised the Soviets didn’t suppress this story

Animats
1 replies
2h8m

This appears in the biggest way in the financial sector. The US financial sector is now about 12% of employment.

The US used to have a much simpler financial sector, due to strict regulation.

* Banks could not do brokerage, and brokers could not do banking. (Glass-Stegall)

* Banks could only do boring stuff - transactions and loans.

* Utilities were mostly rate of return regulated, paid dividends, and had stable stock prices.

* Utility ownership was simple - there was a limit of 3 on ownership tree depth. (Utility Holding Company Act)

* Stocks traded much more slowly. There were no hedge funds, leveraged buyouts, private equity (which is leveraged buyouts under another name), or high frequency trading.

* Major companies could have only one class of voting stock, a NYSE rule. (Ford Motor was grandfathered in, being older than the NYSE).

* Home loans came mostly from savings and loan companies, which could pay higher interest rates than banks.

All that held from 1940-1980, arguably one of the greatest periods for the US. Then came financial deregulation.

The big effect was that if you wanted to make money, you didn't go into finance. You went into manufacturing.

logicchains
0 replies
36m

You missed a key thing: before the 70s there was a limit on the amount of cash in the system, but after the US jettisoned all ties to gold there was no limit on how much money the financial system can create. That's why the US dollar has seen more inflation in the past 50 years than in the 150 years before that.

voiper1
0 replies
22m

It seems many of these - e.g. turbotax - are more specifically regulatory capture. The capitalistic business that makes a profit on tax preparation surely opposses the government giving it away for free.

vegetablepotpie
0 replies
1h5m

One of the reasons defense spending in the US is so high and why programs like the F-35 have gone $183 billion over original cost estimates, is because of the Shirky Principle.

I’m convinced that earned value management (EV), which is a requirement of contractors to follow under the Federal Acquisition Regulations (FAR), is a very subtle form of regulatory capture that serves the needs of the managerial professional class over that of the warfighter, workers, and tax payers.

EV, at its surface, appears to be a tool for the government to ensure contractors provide honest work and control costs. Because it’s essentially waterfall, it incentives raw task execution and disincentives managing risk, fixing bugs, and satisfying non-functional requirements.

We have acquisition programs that follow the systems engineering process, with discrete execution steps of design, development, integration, etc. with people’s careers focused on fulfilling those stages of development. The later in this process an issue is discovered, the more expensive it is to fix [1].

The kicker is that a good manager, under EV, will work to exceed performance, get a task done ahead of schedule, and under budget. This manger has every reason to not solve bugs and to pass them on later in the process.

There is no reason for anyone in this process to change it, because careers depend on it continuing to exist, and contractors, as institutions, really benefit from it.

In the bad old days of defense contracting, contractors would seriously underbid contracts. As soon as they got the award, because they underbid everyone, the contractor would immediately send a series of change requests to increase the budget. The government has ways to eliminate this risk, such as hiring two contractors to do the same job, then drop a competitor who attempts the change request ramp. Though this is expensive.

With EV, contractors get a ramp up and further contracts, without having to directly engage in shenanigans. EV incentivizes the development of brittle and incomplete solutions, like aircraft that give their pilots hypoxia and melt holes in the decks of carriers. The genius of EV is that contractors effectively get change requests and follow-on contracts, and everyone in the system can act honest and honestly say they are acting honest.

What I would do instead is change these perverse incentives by amending the FAR by adding alternative oversight mechanisms, such as a knowledge point framework to develop risk modeling or use economic modeling such as cost-of-delay. The problem is that everyone benefits from the current system and you would need strong leadership by many in congress on an obscure issue.

[1] https://deepsource.com/blog/exponential-cost-of-fixing-bugs

thegrim33
0 replies
3h28m

Another book that covers the topic - Quigley's the Evolution of Civilizations. Taken from a summary:

"Quigley defines a civilization as “a producing society with an instrument of expansion.” A civilization’s decline is not inevitable but occurs when its instrument of expansion is transformed into an institution—that is, when social arrangements that meet real social needs are transformed into social institutions serving their own purposes regardless of real social needs."

He spends some time defining institutionalization, when groups transition from being a group that was formed to accomplish a goal, to being a group whos goal becomes to preserve the group, the various stages involved, and the points where there's opportunities to rectify the situation via reform.

syngrog66
0 replies
4h4m

bingo

spacebacon
0 replies
4h30m

A wise man once said. You doin too much, gah.

sitkack
0 replies
3h58m

The Clay Shirky talk, "The Collapse of Complex Business Models" is play on "The Collapse of Complex Societies" by Joseph Tainter (as mentioned in the post).

Another great person to study in systems and complexity is Jane Jacobs.

One parallel is see is people "warning" about the impending population collapse (which we desperately need), but what we need to do is actively restructure our society to handle it gracefully.

https://www.cambridge.org/us/universitypress/subjects/archae...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Jacobs

simpaticoder
0 replies
4h13m

I used to believe that any organization who takes morality seriously must fund it's equal and opposite organization. It would serve as a foil, collecting unhappy customer stories and potentially turning them into lawsuits. The second organization's stated goal is to end the first organization. But after a moment's thought, the Shirky Principle clearly makes this unworkable - both orgs want to survive, so the second org will, in general, tend to shirk its duties (so to speak) and function merely as a private welfare scheme and a cloak of respectability for the first.

shp0ngle
0 replies
3h6m

I'm always thinking about that when I see various homeless shelters in my city.

Yes I dont doubt that people there work from their goodwill... but... if homelessness disappear, they will be out of business? From some point of view, homelessness is GOOD for them?

Same thing with all those African charities I guess, but I dont have any direct experience with poverty in Africa while I see homeless daily

seventytwo
0 replies
3h27m

…duh? I thought this was common knowledge.

serial_dev
0 replies
4h5m

I thought this was going to be an article about the Agile Industrial Complex or Clean Architecture.

sdsd
0 replies
49m

They don't need to intentionally try. Institutions that do things to solve problems compete against ones that do things to survive. Even if everyone, in their mind, is trying to solve problems, over time the institutions that survive are the ones that "solve the problem" in a self-perpetuating, self-empowering way.

rsp1984
0 replies
2h1m

Accountants, tax consultants, (many types of) lawyers, real estate agents and other useless middlemen, all examples of professions that shouldn't exist, given that there are cheap, easy and efficient technical solutions for the problems they solve.

Why are they still in business? Because the law prevents more efficient solutions. Why are laws made in such a fashion? Because said industries offer lucrative deals to lawmakers if they give in to their lobbying.

The corruption in the western world is deep and pervasive. It's just one level removed from the public perception s.t. the price we all pay for it is hidden.

quantum_state
0 replies
36m

The weapon producers are the most obvious group.

prabhu-yu
0 replies
3h1m

Police system wants criminals to persist. Justice system wants litigations to persist. Medical system wants diseases to prolong. Religious leaders don't want to us to reach our own god. Political and military leaders want the country to be threatened. Education system don't want us to learn on our own. So, they create artificial pressure to get educated. Even top technological companies pay legal bribes to users not to use competatiors product. so on.

Only solution to all this is: Think how would we live if such entities did not exist. Then develop necessary skills and use them in daily life.

osigurdson
0 replies
2h18m

It does seem that the incentives are pretty aligned with keeping the organization in place and thus not solving the problem. The incentive structure would have to change to fundamentally fix the issue.

onos
0 replies
2h42m

Perhaps our institutions could be replaced by finite lifetime endeavors, similar to vc funds.

Reminds me of us vs Japanese tv shows. Theirs often last only a season or two and the stories are good. Ours go on and on till we are sick of them.

miga
0 replies
1h17m

It would be better to submit the paper for peer review verifying the claims.

It is great to have opinions, but it is even better to rigorously check them against reality.

mechhacker
0 replies
4h9m

I didn't see any mention of Robert Conquest's 3 laws of bureaucracy:

1 Everyone is conservative about what he knows best.

2 Any organization not explicitly right-wing sooner or later becomes left-wing.

3 The simplest way to explain the behavior of any bureaucratic organization is to assume that it is controlled by a cabal of its enemies

m3kw9
0 replies
4h34m

Most times they don’t need to preserve the problem as the problem always slowly evolves and so does the institution. Another reason they cannot easily preserve problem is because there is competition. I do think this could be happening for medicine, and most likely place for it to happen

kazinator
0 replies
4h33m

  I'm on a Committee
  (Phong Ngo)

  Oh, give me a pity, I'm on a committee
  Which means that from morning to night
  We attend and amend and contend and defend
  Without a conclusion in sight.

  We confer and concur, we defer and demur
  And re-iterate all of our thoughts
  We revise the agenda with frequent addenda
  And consider a load of reports.

  We compose and propose, we suppose and oppose
  And the points of procedure are fun!
  But though various notions are brought up as motion
  There's terribly little gets done.

  We resolve and absolve, but never dissolve
  Since it's out of the question for us.
  What a shattering pity to end our committee
  Where else could we make such a fuss?

  Copyright  Phong Ngo
  RG
  APR99

karmakaze
0 replies
2h31m

It also happens at a larger scale where an entire industry maintains the status quo. I think of this every time I read "the $x B ____ industry"

In addition to mentioning the key quote that is now known as the Shirky principle, Kelly also says the following in his blog post:

“The Shirky Principle declares that complex solutions (like a company, or an industry) can become so dedicated to the problem they are the solution to, that often they inadvertently perpetuate the problem.”

I would drop the 'inadvertently' though.

jollyoldpirate
0 replies
3h12m

What a thought-terminating cliche of a title.

jmyeet
0 replies
1h9m

It's a glaring omission that the word "capitalism" doesn't appear once in this because is at the heart of what the real problem is.

To borrowo another commenter's example: waste management. The town starts picking up the trash daily. It may cut back services and standardize waste bins to streamline the process and cut costs. But here's where it really goes awry: the waste management gets privatized, usually in some kind of "public private partnership". Or it and other municipal functions may be delegated to private insitutions, namely HOAs, which historically have been quasi-government actors that were created primarily to exclude people (ie systemic racism, segregation [1]).

Now HOAs are menat to be resident bodies but the actual management gets privatized to management companies. A government is accountable to its people. HOAs typically aren't accountable to their residents. They are filled with tinpot dictators, self-interested NIMBYs and corruption. Contracts go out to a company controlled by the HOA president's family, etc.

Some of this happens through innocent delusion like the myth of small government being good but usually it's because of corruption and/or lobbying by the beneficiaries of said policies. For public-private partnerships, it's even worse because, to make the prospect attractive, the government assumes all the risk and the private "partner" captures all the profit. This is one way that train companies are run into the ground: in the search for ever-inreasing profits, prices are jacked up and services are cut.

As soon as the stakeholders are separated from who the solution is for, you see exactly what's mentioned. This has been known for centuries and can be analyzed as the workers' relationship to the means of production.

The best internet is municipal internet. Why? Because it's by and for the residents. There are no shareholders who need to be constantly appeased with higher and higher profits.

Capitalism just promotes and rewards rent-seeking. That's all this is.

[1]: https://housingmatters.urban.org/articles/how-hoas-can-shape...

jmilloy
0 replies
3h21m

I tend to think that this isn't inherent to institutions (or individuals), but rather that institutions that have this behavior tend to grow and last, whereas institutions that do not stay small and eventually disappear. A kind of survivorship bias.

jl2718
0 replies
3h18m

True, but then how do problems actually get solved? Perhaps only by agents that would benefit if the problem were solved.

For instance, send UNICEF into nations with extreme poverty, and you will get back a bunch of sad stories, a bigger UNICEF, and a larger population to feed. Send a cigarette company, and magically the people will find a way to create an economy to fund their nicotine addiction. There are other solutions to the plagues of poverty, such as civil war, narco-states, natural resource extraction, and refugee migration.

Not your intent? Well, you probably didn’t actually want to solve the problem; you just wanted to feel good about your intent to solve the problem, and now I ruined it for you, so I’m the problem.

jakearmitage
0 replies
4h41m

Hello ATF.

intrepidsoldier
0 replies
4h13m

IT and Kubernetes

intalentive
0 replies
1h30m

The problem is money and the way it is allocated. Institutions can't ossify if the funding dries up first.

In a market system, an institution that fails to serve a purpose goes out of business.

In a command system, too, bad management gets the axe.

In the hybrid system we have had since the early-mid 20th century, institutions can be both 1) insulated from market discipline; and 2) influence their own funding through lobbying and legislation. The former does not occur in a market system, and the latter does not occur in a command system.

What is missing is negative feedback. Systems without negative feedback are typically unstable.

infotropy
0 replies
35m

It’s like the old consulting adage: “If you’re not part of the solution, there’s money to be made by prolonging the problem.”

iandanforth
0 replies
3h52m

Many here will see connections to The Innovator's Dilemma. So I want to ask, are you aware of any business that recognized it had become an impediment to further innovation and "consciously" applied the suggestions from TID? Has anyone done a review of their own business trying to see if they had become part of the problem rather than the best solution to the problem?

hyperthesis
0 replies
4h24m

The ones that don't no longer exist. Survival of the Obstructionest.

Some institutions obsolete themselves. Though I can't think of one as they are arguably not "institutions".

gmerc
0 replies
4h54m

Ah yes, the US Healthcare industry in a nutshell

gloryless
0 replies
3h48m

The systems people are just nodding

georgeecollins
0 replies
4h26m

Turbo Tax. Southwest Airlines lobbying against high speed rail.

forgot-im-old
0 replies
4h43m

One solution is to keep these organizations so lean and understaffed that they would love to eliminate tasks and reduce the scope of their responsibilities.

divan
0 replies
4h24m

Interesting links in the article and comments, but it seems like two different concepts are mixed here – the nature of bureaucracies and wrong incentives. I struggle to understand how cobra and rat cases are "institutions trying to preserve the problem".

Cobra effect, in particular, is an immensely interesting topic of how rewarding the metrics can distort the system, otherwise known as Goodhart's effect. I highly recommend reading these two papers on the subject for anyone interested:

- Categorizing Variants of Goodhart's Law [1]

- Building less-flawed metrics: Understanding and creating better measurement and incentive systems [2]

Adding the "Cognitive Surplus" book to the to-do shelf, but it seems like Shirky principle is mostly about institutions and the nature of bureaucracies. Now, a good question would be - when and why Shirky principle does not apply to the institutions. My first thought is the difference between bureaucracies that have "owner" and ones who lost it.

When a bureaucracy has an owner (person or group of people) who can change the bureaucracy in response to external events, then it's probably unlikely to have Shirky effect (WHO and smallpox example in comments). However, bureaucracies that have lost their owner will most likely have this effect.

The best thing I read on this subject (how bureaucracies work) is Samo Burja's "Great Founder Theory" [3]. If anyone can suggest something along these lines on the fundamental principles of bureaucracies, I would appreciate a lot.

[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.04585

[2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266638992...

[3] https://samoburja.com/gft/

cs702
0 replies
2h37m

...because solving the problem would make them unnecessary.

ccvannorman
0 replies
5h14m

Such an important principle when considering the governance of and improvement of societies.

I noted that the article didn't mention the War on Drugs; probably books have been written about the Shirky principle and the US's war on drugs.

cchi_co
0 replies
1h28m

As I understood, this principal has two sides of different behavior. The Institute do not understand that they solve the problem and behave like they do not know how to solve it. And the Institute do it specifically postpone the solution just to show that they do some work but in reality they do not do nothing to solve the problem...

bpiche
0 replies
4h2m

Illich talked about this. That’s what Medical Nemesis was all about, and Deschooling Society.

bilsbie
0 replies
2h23m

It seems to then follow that every organization started to fix a problem should build in an expiration date.

bcatanzaro
0 replies
2h35m

“To oppose something is to maintain it. To be sure, if you turn your back on [Rome] and walk away from it, you are still on the road [to Rome]. To oppose vulgarity is inevitably to be vulgar. You must go somewhere else; you must have another goal; then you walk a different road.” - Ursula K. Le Guin

LunicLynx
0 replies
10m

Did someone say Agile Coach?

HashThis
0 replies
4h34m

Corporations do that also by keep hiring lobbyists to get congress to sell out, to keep the problem in place.

Like TurboTax & H&R Block not wanting the IRS to automate personal taxes. ...and their lobbyists got congress to pass a law to block the IRS.

Georgelemental
0 replies
3h53m

NATO and its system of related organizations is another great example. Built to defend against the USSR, when the USSR fell it made sure to repeatedly provoke Russia so that the threat from the east would be preserved.

Georgelemental
0 replies
4h6m

French sociologist Jean Baudrillard wrote of the supposedly "anti-racist" French NGO "SOS Racisme":

Every society must designate an enemy, but it must not seek to exterminate it. This was the fatal error of Fascism and the Terror, but it is also the error of the soft, democratic Terror, which is in the process of eliminating the Other even more surely than the Holocaust. The operation that consisted in hypostasizing a race and perpetuating it through internal reproduction, which we stigmatize as a racist abjection, is now being carried out at the level of individuals, in the very name of man's right to control his own process genetically and in all its forms. SOS-Racism. SOS-whales. Ambiguity: in one case, it's to denounce racism, in the other, it's to save whales. What if, in the first case, it's also a subliminal call to save racism, and thus the anti-racist struggle as the last vestige of political passions, and thus a virtually doomed species?
FpUser
0 replies
39m

People trying to protect their cushy feeder? No shit Sherlock. It starts with a single individual and goes up to highest level of Government / Corporations

Dig1t
0 replies
13m

This is a classic example of "show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome".

I could also see how this same incentive might apply to nonprofit groups as well. i.e. nonprofit groups might actually have an incentive to perpetuate the existence of problems they purport to attempt to solve, because the folks who work there would be out of a job and might lose their prestigious titles as authorities on whatever their chosen problem is.

CPLX
0 replies
5h13m

The first main example used here is dumb. The point wasn't that carpooling needed to go back to being inconvenient again, the problem is obviously that if you expand the definition of "carpooling" too much you get unlicensed and unregulated common carrier transportation companies that are effectively taxi or bus services with no oversight at all, and people could get killed.

Of course there's ways around that, and maybe the trade-offs are worth it. That's what the legislation concluded it seems. But the argument here is a strawman.

AlbertCory
0 replies
10m

Since I don't see anything in the comments about lawyers or barbers:

Lawyers don't want to solve problems. They just want to add them to their practice areas.

Try asking an IP lawyer, "Does software need to be patentable?"

That will be like asking a barber, "Do I need a haircut?"

343242dfsdf
0 replies
2h53m

I know