One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average (https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...).
If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a ton cheaper. Iowa/Kansas/Missouri/Nebraska get cold, but their electric rates are less than half ours.
Heat pumps do work into freezing New England temperatures, but they're a bit less efficient as it gets to zero fahrenheit. That wouldn't matter if our electric rates were more reasonable, but at our high rates a heat pump would probably cost me an additional $50/mo in the winter (compared to natural gas). That isn't so bad and our electric rates might come down as offshore wind actually starts happening. Plus it might actually be cheaper than gas given that mini-splits would mean I could choose which rooms I want to heat rather than heating the whole place as a single zone. Plus there's the option to get solar power to drive down prices.
But I think the biggest issue in New England (and California) will probably be the high cost of electricity. In most of the country, heat pumps are a huge no-brainer.
Right, the heat pump will reduce energy use to maybe 1/3 of a gas furnace, but natural gas is something like 6x cheaper for the same amount of energy, so it is an expensive folly.
If California is serious about this, they need to reign in the utilities to reduce prices and or stop the attacks on solar installation.
Natural gas won’t stay cheap. It was cheap here in Australia 10 years ago and now it’s so expensive no one can afford to run gas heating and it’s only going up. Now (thankfully) the government has banned the installation of new gas heating and a lot of people are getting rid of gas cooking, hot water heating etc… it’s for the best.
The only reason that natural gas prices in Australia have gone up in the past 10 years is that gas producers in the eastern states were able to start exporting gas as LNG.
As of 2023, Australia is the world's second largest LNG exporter (source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1262074/global-lng-expor...) after the US (take that Russia!) and ahead of Qatar. Great for the gas exporting cartel but not so great for ordinary Australians in eastern states who now pay the same for gas as people in Tokyo. (And Aussies wonder why manufacturers keep leaving...)
Banning domestic gas usage for new homes (which the fools running Victoria, the state I live in, have done) will do nothing for emissions but will mean that the gas cartel can make even more money exporting LNG to Asia. Bravo!
The exception is Western Australia which is also a massive LNG exporter but has stricter domestic reservation requirements than the eastern states.
All of the above has been extensively documented at https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/ (source: https://www.google.com.au/search?q=site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww....).
How can that be?
Direct consumption emissions are eliminated.
Those with solar (a growing percentage) reduce their indirect emissions from grid non-renewable generators.
And there is a growing percentage of green generation on the grid.
Because a reduction of domestic gas usage will just be diverted to less efficient LNG exports.
Given that by far the largest source of Victoria's electricity generation capacity is from dirty brown coal [1] if anything banning domestic gas usage might even make emissions worse since it will force people to use only electricity for cooking and heating.
Ah, so burning Aussie natural gas in Asia (after it's been liquified and then turned back into gas) is somehow better for the environment than just burning it in Australia?
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Victoria#Electricity...
Is the correct strategy to wait to regulate gas usage until every country on earth does the same? That doesn't seem like a winning strategy. Someone always has to be last.
If you want to help the environment, you regulate both gas usage and exports. The goal is to keep gas in the ground, where it belongs, not to move it to other countries.
Except gas exports are largely being used to retire brown coal burning which is even worse for the environment than LNG. This isn't an all-or-nothing deal even with exports. The richer countries should take on the costs of better efficiency first and we can trickle those technologies down to other nations as they become cheaper than LNG and coal.
It is stupid, with less Gas available on the LNG Market other LNG Producers will increase production or they will use other Energy sources such as coal.
It's banning the installation of NEW LNG appliances in homes in Victoria.
It doesn't impact commercial use of LNG, or the extraction or export of LNG.
Banning domestic gas usage while a significant proportion of you electricity supply is produced by burning coal seems beyond absurd..
This. Have friends in this industry.
The biggest pushers of no domestic gas are the producers and finance guys. They make a lot more money on exports.
The chart you link to shows that Brown Coal, as both a total, and as an overall percentage of the grid, is decreasing, with renewables increasing.
Indeed, if you look at the three Brown Coal generators in Victoria[1], Yallorn is due to shut down in 2028 taking ~30% (1480MW) of that away, followed by Loy Yang A in 2035 which will take another ~40% (2200MW) of that capacity.
So, banning new LNG appliances now, and starting that migration will have a net positive impact.
This is true even if the LNG continues to be burned overseas if it's replacing coal fired generation capacity.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal-fired_power_stati...
If it displaces burning coal in Asia, maybe it is? https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14670874
In the last 3 years coal went from 65% to 58%, expect this trend to continue and even accelerate. See the link below. https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/renewable-energy/victorian-ren...
It costs money to transport LNG abroad. Ships, terminal infrastructure maintenance, people, it's all overhead. Ultimately if people stop using natural gas domestically there will be a reduction in production because that overhead eats into the profits of the producers.
What you seem to be saying is that Australians had gas that was artificially cheap because it wasn't being bought and sold at international market rates, and once that started happening and the market was no longer distorted by trade limitations, the fair market price was not longer attractive to Australian customers.
(Personally, I think all countries, to the extent that they can, ought to both reduce domestic fossil fuel use and at the same time impose strict limits on its export. We're all better off if it just stays in the ground.)
It wasn't "artifically" cheap nor was the market "distorted". It was merely the physical reality prior to the innovation of LNG.
It would only be fair to say it was artifically cheap, say, if the Australian government was imposing tariffs or subsidising production. I don't think it was doing that, and as it was, the producers were sufficiently incentivised by the market to produce and sell gas domestically.
There was an inefficient allocation of resources that was disrupted by technology.
Interesting. Of course transporting gas across the Australian continent and selling it cheaply is a lot less lucrative than selling it abroad in lng form. So, I can see why they would focus on exports rather than a relatively small domestic market that is on the other side of the continent.
Anyway, Australia has no excuse for not using solar energy. Which is exactly what they are doing over there despite conservative governments trying to slow that down for the last decade or so. I doesn't need to depend on fossil fuels.
It was cheap 10 years ago because the global price of gas was cheap, its not now.
No such thing as a global gas price. Natural gas pricing is regional as it cannot be easily transported.
US exported 6.9 trillion cubic feet of natural gas in 2022.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/natural-gas/imports-and-...
The article says nothing about the cost of shipping gas across the globe. It only says 44% of exports are by pipeline.
If shipping makes it an order of magnitude more expensive, then there is no global price.
Order of magnitude?
Large (not ultra large) oil tankers might carry 200,000 tonnes and consume 25 ton of heavy bunker fuel per day.
LNG gas carriers equally have their own stats.
This is something you can (or at the very least should be able to) back of envelope estimate ...
https://www.planete-energies.com/en/media/article/transporti...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%A4rtsil%C3%A4-Sulzer_RTA9...
Now you just need mean trip times, profit margin, etc. and you're away.
Order of magnitude addition to costs, though, sounds a little extreme.
Once the pipe is built, the maintenance cost is very low, much lower than maintaining and using a tanker.
When ships were attacked in the red sea they started diverting. When nordstream blew up that was it. Something to take into account, at least.
True but it was turned off some time before that happened
“Europe remained the main destination for U.S. LNG exports in December, with 5.43 MT, or just over 61%. In November, 68% of U.S. LNG exports were to Europe, LSEG data showed.”
Of course there is a global market for all fossil fuels.
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-was-top-lng-expor....
Yea at rather insane prices due to the Ukraine war.
In 2022 the US imported 3 trillion CF, exported 6.9 trillion cubic feet, and extracted 43.8 trillion CF.
By comparison in 2015 we only exported 1.8 trillion CF.
Also known as "the price" for anyone who doesn't sit on massive gas deposits
Australia exports 41% of its gas.
I remember a recent investor report posted on HN about declining health of permian basin, and the economics of extraction will increasingly not make sense in 10 years. Seems like no brainer if shale and by connection LNG is on way out. Might also explain Biden stalling LNG expansions especially with NATO on the hook, maybe it's cynical electioneering to his base, but maybe the future of cheap US LNG is not bright vs renewables.
The fossil fuel capitalists are so very unhappy about this ban, they are still going on about it in the financial news. I have to say, I love it. Low natural gas prices directly benefit me, and isn't it our gas?
The price has certainly come down (look at henry hub chart..), but also winter has not been too cold..
They should ban oil exports next.. (for "national security")
Actually export tariffs would be better than outright bans.
Export tariffs are actually unconstitutional in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import-Export_Clause
Interesting.. the same section banned any limitation on the importation of slaves... at least that clause had a sunset date. Both clauses were basically: "don't touch our cash cow".
The price of consensus
Looking at that clause, it appears that it's only unconstitutional if the individual states do it. Doesn't say anything about the federal government or Congress. Or am I reading it wrong?
There are two clauses that ban export tariffs. One applies to states, the other to the Feds.
Very warm winter. People in my (usually Frosty) neighborhood are marvelling. It's remarkably warm this year.
Vaclav Smil's books about energy give some extra context. I have read his Power Density book (eye opening comparison of solar, wind, nuclear, fossil).
IIRC Gas extraction has an extremely high EROI (30x) initially, making it a highly productive extractive resource. But each gas well has a productive lifespan of approx 7 years requiring constant activity to sustain development.
Huge fan of Valclav Smil’s work. Note that the significant amount of water required to frack those wells is in the order of 1 million galls or more. Both sides of that is impacting the Edwards Aquifer[1]. Wastewater from wells is finally being treated, but it doesn’t seem to be a widespread practice, yet. It’s also possible that production declines after each subsequent refracking process.
—- 1 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwards_Aquifer
Depends where you are.
In the US natural gas is a byproduct of shale oil extraction and we have a limited capacity to move or export it so it's almost priced as a waste product.
It's unlikely that electricity will be any cheaper than gas soon either, since that's where 40% (and growing, as our coal and nuclear fleet are retired) of our electricity comes from.
Today solar electricity is already cheaper than natural gas and by 2030-31 solar and wind electricity cost will be 1/4 to 1/8 of today's prices looking at the avg 10% cost decline we are seeing. The advantage of natural gas being cheaper than solar was 4-5 years ago now it's no longer the case. Natural gas advantage now is of having being able to produce electricity when needed but as battery storage prices drop it will also be priced out from that market in many places with solar and wind availablity.
Most US natural gas production is from "dry" wells without petroleum production.
It will stay cheap in most of Australia and United States. Rest of world (europe) though….
I've not heard of any attacks, just reductions in subsidies (tax credits, net metering). Can you share what you're referring to?
Is net metering a subsidy?
If few people use net metering it's kind of fair. Your solar installation generates electricity, any excess gets delivered to your neighbors. The electricity is providing the infrastructure for that without making any money on that specific transaction (it gets deducted from your meter and added to your neighbors' meter), but that's easy enough to account for in base fees.
The issues start if too many people do net metering. Imagine everyone has a solar roof and reaches net-zero electricity. You can still maintain the infrastructure with base fees, but the electricity company still has to run power plants in the morning and evening when demand outstrips solar supply, and for baseload in the night. And during the day there's now an oversupply of electricity that they somehow have to sell.
In commercial electricity generation many countries have a kind of spot market for electricity, where prices are determined by demand (down to the minute) and available supply. Prices can go close to zero if lots of solar and wind capacity is available, or far above the price charged to consumer for capacity to cover the evening peak. If we changed consumer prices to more accurately reflected this "true" market price (plus markup for the grid operator), with prices changing by the minute, net metering would be pretty fair. But so far there's little desire to dump all that complexity on regular consumers.
In theory yes, but the grid has not used properly scoped base fees to pay for infrastructure. Delivery costs of power are more than half the total cost; to get to a base+generation model, you'd probably see monthly connection fees for Electricity in the $100+ range for many Americans.
I don't think there's any obligation for people's financial trickery to be sustainable. Like, a new power pole costs (say) $1000 regardless of how many watts are going through the wires attached to it. Someone has to pay the person that cut down the tree and hauled it to its final location money. That they loan you money on the infrastructure and you repay through using electricity isn't the actual cost model, it's just a pricing model people are OK with. When it stops working, the model will have to change.
I always laughed about the pricing structure of the business ISP that I worked at. We charged $1000 to install your service, then $1000 per month (without a contract). This was a financial game; we would lose money if you cancelled after your first month. I always thought the pricing should be $15,000 to install, and then $5 per month. That's closer to what the actual costs are. But instead of you going to the bank to get a loan to pay the $15,000, we hid that for you. It made more people sign up, and we had a better source of funding than bank loans. But, at the end of the day, we would have been out of business if a bunch of people signed up and didn't pay. If that happened, I imagine the pricing would have changed to reflect actual costs.
That pole is carrying the power for, say, 100 people.
Half of them use a below-average amount of electricity. If you stick them with a $100/month fixed fee, they don't need a large solar/battery system to get off the grid entirely, so you've made that economical and that's what they do.
Now you have the same number of poles and half as many customers, so the fixed fee rises to $200/month, and more customers do the same thing. This is not going to a great place.
Meanwhile there is a rural road somewhere that only has two things on it. One is a large commercial operation and the other is somebody's house. Putting up poles along that road is going to cost $100,000, but the commercial operation is content to pay the entire amount because their alternative is buying land somewhere that it costs significantly more than $100,000 more. The house on the same road is not content to pay half of that and will just use their $50,000 to install a solar/battery system and have quite a bit left over, even though a model where they only pay for usage would get them to sign up, and the power company is installing the poles either way.
The problem we're looking at is that if you charge a fixed fee for a grid connection, low users opt out of the grid, and then the fixed fee goes up and creates a new set of low users. But if you charge for distribution per kWh, everybody installs local solar generation because it's cheaper than any generation method that has a significant distribution fee as part of the cost per kWh, which in turn raises the distribution component of the price per kWh even more. Under the first option, a large proportion of rural and suburban customers aren't going to want a grid connection at all. Under the second option, they'll take the grid connection but then only use it if local generation isn't available (i.e. it's cloudy) and the grid price per kWh at those times will be quite high. But that's plausibly the better of the two alternatives, because a grid connection with a high price per kWh will generally be better than losing power at those times, or having enough local storage/generation to prevent that from ever happening even in rare circumstances.
A third option is to charge everyone the fixed fee for the power grid and force them to take a grid connection even if that isn't economical, but that's even worse. You've essentially created a head tax with no way to avoid it even if you can't afford it, because you can't cancel your service and you can't pay less by reducing consumption.
There's a pole in my backyard. It generously connects 8 houses. There is another pole a few hundred feet down the road, also connecting 8 houses.
There is also a pole closer to the substation which is carrying the power for 5000 people.
Meanwhile if four of the eight people near your house decide to disconnect from the grid because the fixed fee is too high, you still have to cover the cost of that pole with half as many people, some of whom might then decide that the higher fixed fee is too much and disconnect too, etc.
Comcast quoted rates in this range for installations in areas near Palo Alto. IIRC my friend was quoted $20k for the installation. She might have gone for it if they'd charged $5/mo after that, but of course Comcast wouldn't be so kind. Last I heard, she was still on AT&T copper. Hopefully Starlink will be able to help people like this, who are just outside the reach of existing wired internet.
Negative prices aren't uncommon during quiet periods in the summer.
Absolutely.
If a customer is permitted to buy as much electricity as they want at a fixed price while also being able to sell as much as they can at a different time at a fixed price, it seems like there's an obvious subsidy happening anytime they sell electricity at other than when the wholesale price is the highest or buy other than when the wholesale price is lowest. (In areas with an excess of solar generation capacity, these distortions become quite large.)
(I'm still all for these subsidies on the balance of factors; we just shouldn't pretend that they're not subsidies.)
But until the relevant grid is saturated with solar generation, surely the surplus just needs to be moved around.
And if the grid itself is saturated, that means it isn't big enough.
All electricity generation throughout the US is subsidized in various ways already - eg low interest loans for new generation capacity, programs for low income earners, not (or not effectively) charging for carbon and methane emissions, low fuel taxes on sources used for electricity generation. The "subsidies" you list help make a desirable energy source compete on a more level playing field - matching benefits that competing energy sources already receive.
My understanding is that when utilities buy energy from solar farms, they do so based on the demand and available supply, meaning that solar farms get paid more or less depending on these factors. But with net metering for residential solar installations, utilities are buying independent of supply/demand, which gives the residents a subsidy even vis-a-vis other solar producers.
I understand that all kinds of energy production methods are subsidized, but if net metering lets residential solar owners get paid more for the energy they produce than solar farms would be paid, I don't see how that's anything but a subsidy.
There are all kinds of complications - commercial solar isn't dispatchable so it does tend to get lower rates than most other sources. In my jurisdiction residential (net metering) customers are only allowed to install a certain numbers of panels - corresponding with household energy consumption and assumed production levels (i.e. your monthly bill will never be negative - at lowest you'll be paying distribution charges and 0 for consumption). With low levels of residential solar installation, locally installed panels can help balance the grid as it is consumed on distribution lines and doesnt need transmission lines (conversely, high levels can unbalance the grid).
Paying them nothing would be even more unfair (and that's the only option available where I am at least - net metering or no household generation)
I wasn't suggesting this. The phased rollback of net metering in California (the state mentioned in my original parent comment as "attacking" solar installation) means that solar owners will still get paid, just not as much as before. I'm sorry that you live somewhere that this middle option isn't available — the two extremes are indeed less fair!
The "phased rollback of net metering" is a bit more extreme than you suggest. Have you heard of income-based billing? [1]
[1] https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/local/working-for-you/sdge...
I have heard of income-based billing, but that will apply regardless of whether you own solar panels. Also, some legislators are trying to repeal it before it goes into effect. [1-2]
1: https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-progressive-california-epipha...
2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39320388#39320860
Thank you for this clarification - I thought the discussion about changes to net metering was general, not California specific. Reading [1] about the changes to net metering in California, it seems reasonable, especially as it has high solar penetration. Hopefully it will (like many things) lead the way so that load shifting becomes simpler/more economical throughout North America.
[1] https://cleantechnica.com/2023/08/18/decoding-the-changes-to...
Most US solar farms have a power purchase agreement that’s independent of real time market prices. Solar farms agree because being paid 2c/kWh or whatever for the first X years guarantees they can repay all loans. Utilities agree because it’s guaranteed to save them money.
Those power purchase agreements then makes it really easy to get loans.
California specific: income based minimum pricing, and 'wholesale' pricing for power sent to the grid.
Income-based base billing is indeed terrible, but it is not an attack on solar. You'd pay it whether you have panels or not. Also, legislators have apparently come to their senses and are looking to repeal it. [1-2] As for the pricing for power sent to the grid, I did mention the changes to net metering, which offer grandfathering for existing installations.
1: https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-progressive-california-epipha...
2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39320388#39320860
The high fixed monthly cost regardless of utilization means that compared to previous, my total costs for solar go up, even if my total costs for PGE supplied power don't. That will cause many fewer people to switch to solar or solar + battery.
It doesn't change the calculus for switching. It's the same fixed cost either way. The price is simply going up for customers who are not poor. I don't see how this makes someone more or less likely to switch to solar, since the dollar amount they can save stays the same.
An analogy: your kid's preschool has an option where you can volunteer once a month and save $50/month. One day, they announce that they are going to institute a new fee that ranges from $10-100, depending on your income.
How does that new fee cause fewer people to decide to volunteer?
Previously: Spend $60k to save $200/month Now: Spend $60k to save $100/month
Break even would then be much further in to the future.
Solar is a large capital expenditure, and this change reduces the return on that investment.
Can you explain how the income-based fee results in lower savings? It is a fixed fee that applies whether or not you have solar.
To be clear, I think the income-based fee is a bad idea, but I just don't think it changes the calculus on installing solar. I have also had conversations about this specific question with a friend who has a PhD in urban planning, lives in CA, and is in the process of installing solar panels. It's possible she's wrong, but everything she says lines up with what I have read.
It sounds like you're referring to the net metering changes, which are separate from the income-based fee. That does change the calculus, obviously (which is why they grandfathered existing installs for 20 years).
Income based pricing encourages people to go off grid.
The upfront cost of doing that with a propane generator is about a half that of a battery + solar system (it's about a third if you go with battery + solar + generator, which is more comparable to a grid connection).
However, the maintenance and fuel costs of the generator mean that the solar will be much cheaper (and quieter!) to operate.
If the income based pricing is $100 / month, and the net energy / base connection cost is $0 / month (assuming an exactly sized solar system), then it'll take about 200 months for the generator to pay itself off. That's 16 years, which is a bit longer than the system will last, though replacing a generator costs about half what I've assumed above.
So, there's a pretty low upper limit to the amount they can screw with these fees before it's economically (though not necessarily environmentally) rational thing for individuals to just cut the cord and let the power grid death spiral.
I'm not the OP, but probably https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2024/01/30/arizona-proposes-sola...
OP was complaining about CA, and this appears to be an proposed law in AZ. It could affect CA utility prices because it relates to export, but it's not up to CA to decide what laws are passed in another state, governing the usage of land in that state.
In California the switch to NEM 3.0 more or less means that folks with solar will get socked with high monthly fees and much lower export rates (roughly wholesale instead of retail). NEM 3.0 came into effect in April of last year.
That's not quite right. Existing installs are grandfathered for 20 years, right? [1]
1: https://www.ecowatch.com/solar/net-metering/net-metering-3-0
Right but we're talking the effect on new installs (and upgrades beyond a certain amount, and eventual maintenance on older NEM 1.0 and 2.0 installs). With NEM 1 exports were paid out at retail rates and there were no interconnect fees. With NEM 3 exports are paid at roughly wholesale rates with a $145 monthly interconnect fee. NEM 3 is absolutely an attack on solar installs.
isn't that an attack? removing/reducing subsidies removes incentives for people to install more solar
Depends how you see it. If you assume a neutral state of no incentives, adding benefits to stimulate growth and later removing this benefits once growth is achieved can be seen as "attacking this positive state" or simply "bringing back to neutral".
I moved to SoCal recently and didn't realize things like net metering even existed, so when people started to rant about these new measures I was very surprised to learn about them, and especially about people presuming these things to be "normal".
I think at first people were (reasonably) scared that net metering might go away with no grandfathering for existing installations. People had a reasonable reliance interest in maintaining at least some of their existing benefits for the payoff period of their panels.
Once it was clear that existing installations would be grandfathered, I didn't hear much ranting anymore — just people who were bummed that a subsidy was going away (or people rushing to get in under the wire).
The problem with rooftop solar is that it is very, very, expensive compared to utility grade solar:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/493797/estimated-leveliz...
If we want to subsidize a renewable energy source, why should we subsidize rooftop solar when we could subsidize utility grade solar or wind? Money is fungible and not unlimited - a dollar that goes to subsidize residential rooftop solar is a dollar that would go much, much further if it was used to subsidize utility grade solar or wind.
Rooftop solar subsidies are also unusual in that much of the subsidy is often paid by less well-off households to subsidize their wealthier neighbors - sort of a reverse Robinhood scheme.
I don't generally view the removal of subsidies as being "attacks". I view that as the end of the free money.
I do appreciate a softball.
https://duckduckgo.com/?va=c&t=he&q=political+attacks+on+sol...
I guess you didn't actually click through to the links; they refer to windmills, solar panel pricing issues in SE Asia, and various other topics (I'm sure some links involve the CA govt attacking solar, but the first several didn't). Maybe next time you can post a couple links that you've actually read, instead of just giving the impression that there are scads of attacks at your fingertips?
Basically, to get subsidies, you need to install a battery storage system with a solar installation. This can be quite a bit more expensive than the solar alone. (worth it if possible, adds a backup in case of a power outage too)
Removing those subsidies while keeping fossil fuel ones is kind of attack.
In the continental US you get ~2x the heat from burning natural gas in a combined cycle turbine to run a heat pump than you would from using a high efficiency gas furnace.
The market price of electricity vs gas varies quite a bit through time and various distortions of the market. Currently gas is cheap, but you want to compare historical averages when buying something that lasts 15+ years not simply look at current rates.
I don't think your math adds up.
Combined cycle is like at most 70% efficient, subtract 10% of distribution, you end up with 60%.
At 50f my 5T heat pump takes 6.6 kWh to generate 50,000 BTU.
6 kWh of energy takes 71cf of gas to make - accounting for transmission and generation losses.
71cf of gas will make 71,000 BTU of heat, assuming an 80% efficiency furnace, that comes out to 56,000 BTU usable.
Yes a heat pump will vastly outperform resistive strip heat - but not even an 80% gas furnace.
Replace your heat pump? People installing new heat pumps are going to see much higher efficiency.
50,000 BTU = 5.27528 * 10 ^ 7 J = 14.6 kWh / 6.6 kWh = COP of 2.2 at 50f which is absolutely terrible. Modern heat pumps should have a COP around 4 at those temperatures and 3 near freezing.
Also, “Subtracting 10%” would mean your grid losses are 17%. “annual electricity transmission and distribution (T&D) losses averaged about 5% of the electricity transmitted and distributed in the United States in 2018 through 2022.” So, (70% * (1 - 5%)) = 66.5%, but resistive losses are reduced in the cold. https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3
4 * 0.665 = 2.66x though obviously what matters here is the annual average COP. (3 * 0.665) = 1.995 aka 2.
Its brand new!
Also, should have been 60,000 BTU - its a 15 SEER unit.
15 SEER relates to cooling efficiency, what is its HSPF rating?
15 SEER is garbage American manufacturers dump on people. Asian manufacturers are making 25-35 SEER systems.
2.7 COP is a a noticeable improvement but still terrible at those temperatures. Are you sure it’s 6.6 kW?
PS: 2.7 COP * 0.665 = 180% efficiency which still crushes the 80% heat pump in your example but these numbers should be much higher.
So I have to spend 10k on a new heater every 10 years just to keep up
I was assuming something was broken or had made a very poor choice of device. He clarified he was reading the wrong column, so it’s not quite as bad.
The technology isn’t advancing fast enough to make upgrading every 10 years necessary. You could buy units in 2000 with a significantly higher COP than he was implying.
I don't think the numbers are accurate in the quantity of gas. Since kWh and BTU are both units of energy, finding the cf of gas is unnecessary (assuming the efficiency numbers are correct).
1 kWh = 3.6 megajoules and 1 BTU = 1055 joules
The 6.6 kWh of the heat pump is 23.76 MJ which is 22,521 BTU of energy. Assuming that the power plant and distribution are 60%, it would take 37,535 BTU of gas to produce (22,521/60%).
Instead, using that 37,535 BTU of gas in an 80% efficient furnace would only produce 30,028 BTU of heat, which is worse than the 50,000 BTU from the heat pump.
I'm pretty sure even a poor heat pump will be more efficient than heating directly with gas. (Of course, they have drawbacks, like they can leak their refrigerant that causes more of a greenhouse effect than CO2.)
You kinda do need to figure that out - EIA says that it takes 7.42cf of gas to make 1kWh of energy.
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=667&t=8
I dont know where EIA gets those numbers, but that was the basis of my calculation. Maybe I shouldn't have multiplied that by the efficiency of the plant, but rather just taken of distribution losses.
They are averaging the efficiency from the current fleet of gas turbines after subtracting the useful heat output and coming up with 44.4%.
However, it’s a misleading number in multiple ways because the fleet is made up of a mix of low and high efficiency turbines. Grid operators use a mix of turbine types as a cost optimization, a far cheaper and far less efficient turbine that’s only used 1% of the time it worth it. The average number of kWh per cf of gas is therefore heavily in favor of high efficiency turbines.
My heat pump contains 2.1 kg of R32 refrigerant. R32 has a GWP of 675, so that 2.1 kg is the equivalent of 1417 kgs of CO2. (older refrigerants were much worse!)
Heat pumps should never leak their refrigerant during their lifetime, and installers will remove and recycle the refrigerant when servicing or decommissioning systems. But of course, accidents happen, so let's pessimistically assume that 50% of systems installed will eventually leak. In the real world it's hopefully far less than that, but that would mean on average 708 kg CO2e in refrigerant is emitted per system over its lifetime.
On the other hand, heating a typical US home with natural gas emits 2900 kgs of CO2 per year.
I think it's safe to say that the climate impact of refrigerant leaks in modern heat pump systems is minuscule compared to that of the CO2 emitted from natural gas heating.
What kind of system do you have that is only giving you (if I’ve converted the those very confusing units correctly) a COP of 2.2 at 10° C? That’s really very poor… There are air-to-water units that can achieve COP > 4 at 0° C, and even a good air-to-air should still be over COP 3… I’d expect to see a COP like that at -15° C or below on a modern unit…
Should have been 60,000 BTU, I read the wrong column
Dear god how do you keep sane with those kinds of units? You're making it so confusing you fail to realise some of your numbers don't quite line up
In sane units:
- 2 m^3 of gas generates 6.6 kWh of electricity
- which generates 14.7 kWh of heat (at some temperature differential).
- The same 2 m^3 of gas generates 20.8 kWh of heat
- of which about 16.4 kWh is usable assuming some losses.
Of course your implied electricity generation is only around 31% efficient, so I'm not sure what that 60% you mention in the beginning is about. The COP you're using is around 2.2, which together with a 60% efficiency for generating electricity would be greater than 1, outstripping anything that's physically possible to achieve with a furnace.
I would like to see HN recommend looking at historical averages before buying an EV.
People have; it's a obvious win. There are sites that do this for your zip code correctly, but an efficient EV gets 4 miles / kWH. An efficient hybrid gets under 60 MPG.
California's insanely high electricity rates are about $0.15 / kWh, so the energy costs $0.0375 per mile.
Gas has hovered around $4 / gallon or higher for a long time, giving a fuel cost of $0.0666 per mile.
Big energy guzzling EVs get about 2 miles / kWh, for $0.075 per mile, and gas guzzlers easily get below 15 MPG, or $0.26 per mile.
You'd have to go back to the days of $1 / gallon gas (mid 1990's?) and ignore inflation / lower electricity costs back then to conclude large ICE cars have competitive fuel costs. You'd "only" need to go back to $2 gas for the energy efficient hybrids to be competitive.
You must have looked at an old chart for California retail electricity rates.
They’re more like $.30/kWh.
Wholesale rates are .02-.04/kWh, but in a nutshell, retail ratepayers are paying for all the record wildfire lawsuit costs.
Sorry, I was comparing my existing gas furnace vs replacing my furnace with a heat pump.
Is there a reason heat pumps use electricity? I would have thought the same approach would work with gas - you only need to burn a fraction of the gas to drive the "fridge" backwards?
I think you are back to where you started. If it was cheaper to use gas to run a heat pump then everybody would just run generators in their houses off of gas instead of using electrical lines.
That has been proposed. Well the proposal was to run a small engine powering a generator, then you cool the engine to heat the house, while the electric is sold (or otherwise powers the house). However modern gas furnaces are > 90% efficient and it is hard to get an engine that efficient for heat (remember the engine will be running indoors so it needs to not fill the house with noise of CO). I think no matter how you look at it, you can't make this system more efficient than just using the furnace to generate heat without the engine.
> I think no matter how you look at it, you can't make this system more efficient than just using the furnace to generate heat without the engine.
I don't think that's right: look at micro-CHP (Combined Heat and Power) systems: they run an engine to generate electricity, and then capture the heat for heating. I don't think you can get them for residential in the US though.
Honda sold one for the US, but it didn't catch on or something:
Well I found this, they used the heat for hot water:
https://global.honda/en/newsroom/news/2012/p120925eng.html
Instead it everyone rubbing their own little power plant. Economies of scale suggests that’s it probably cheaper to centralize that electricity generation in a highly efficient large plant, which brings us back to exactly what we have been found got that 100 years
In MA this actually does work at first glance: a 23% efficient Generac 7171 is rated for 9kW at full output on natural gas, and uses 127 ft3/hr (1.37 therms). This is $0.30/kWh at $2/therm, compared to the $0.323/kWh I pay the power company. If you were doing this for real you'd put in the work to find something more efficient than this unit, which would then be enough to make up for the cost of the generator and the maintenance.
Except it's not legal to do this, and even if it were there'd be a lot of hassle.
Why isn't it legal? Is that an MA thing?
If you plumb the radiator to your home you get >100% efficiency
I had found some things saying you were limited in how many hours per year you could run standby generators outside of emergencies [1] but possibly this only applies to larger systems? [2]
[1] https://www.ehs.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/emergency_ge...
[2] https://www.mass.gov/doc/310-cmr-700-air-pollution-control-r...
You seem to be missing something fundamental here, I’m not sure what it is. How do you think heat pumps work?
Combined Heat and Power (CHP) is big in Europe.
What I had in mind was that heating and cooling using an air-conditioner, a fridge or a "heat pump" is fundamentally the same thing, and electricity is just one way of driving it. Ultimately you have a gas that you compress to release heat (outside for AC, inside for heat pump), which then expands (inside for A/C, outside for a heat pump). The compressor can run off a pedal bike for all it cares.
OP has a point, fundamentally you could drive the heat pump by a little gas turbine, or bridge the gap with a gas powered generator.
Gas fired heat pumps do exist, they're called absorption heat pumps.
https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/absorption-heat-pumps
This is how you can have propane powered refrigerators.
Some fridges use the propane itself as a refrigerant, they do not burn the propane. R-290 is the refrigerant designation for propane.
Southern Cali resident here: I got a mini split system installed a couple years back, and last year's eye-popping surprise gas bill inspired me to start running it backward for heat instead of using the furnace.
Pricewise, it's actually a wash. My electric bill went up by about $100 a month, whereas during the winter my gas bill was running about $100 a month to run the furnace (aside from that one random $600 bill one month last year that inspired this change). I've been using the mini split all winter and it's been great.
Its a wash when gas prices are at historical lows: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/rngwhhdm.htm
That isn't the table you actually care about because it doesn't hit the residential customer like that. The nominal $/therm in my area has been stable for the last 10 years which might be artificial but to my bank account it's all the same.
Obviously depends where you are & your use, but most of the gas bills here are everything but the actual gas. Transportation, distribution, storage, taxes, standby charges...
What on earth is a standby charge on gas?
The monthly meter rental/connection fee/whatever your local utility calls it. Mine calls it "customer charge".
Natural gas prices have not remained stable in California.
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2023-01-06/get-ready-...
I'm in southern California as well, and my gas bill in dollars per therm are not at historic lows. However, price per therm did not double this winter like it did last winter...so far.
Thank you for posting that. Although the cost of electricity is important, when deciding on using a heat pump for heat, the big question is the cost of electricity for heating, relative to the cost of the fuel you are already using (natural gas, propane, oil, etc.).
It's definitely annoying to calculate! Since a heat pump's efficiency can vary with the outside temperature, it takes a bit of work to estimate your potential added electricity cost.
Also cost of capital for installing the heat pump, if a new installation.
To me the heat was a freebie. I installed it for the AC, wasn't expecting to use it for heat at all.
There are second order effects from natural gas use in an actual furnace that aren't taken into account in price of energy comparisons. A furnace has to either
1) exhaust out air initially drawn from the house which must be replaced by cold outdoor air coming into the house (this requires more heating of the house) 2) take in fresh cold air for combustion and exhaust that (which requires extra energy to heat up the cold air)
All modern furnaces I've seen take #2 - use air from outside. Despite that they can get to 99% efficient. It doesn't take much energy to heat up that cold air.
My experience in the US at least is that its not uncommon for the furnace air intake to draw air from inside the house (my last two homes in PNW as one example).
California resident here. Both of my last two places with gas furnaces combust unconditioned air.
You could get high efficiency with a furnace that uses inside air, but they’re basically no longer installed.
20 years ago quite common.
That used to be very common in the US, and there are a lot of old systems still working. However every new furnace I've seen is installed to use outside air. Using outside air needs $100 more in parts and labor and it prevents air balance issues in modern well sealed houses.
The furnace my parents (who live in Ohio) installed 10+ years ago uses outside air for combustion, not conditioned inside air. As it's older, it's not got a 99 AFUE, but it's high (I think in the low 90s).
How could it not take much energy to heat up cold air? That plus blowing air is the entirety of what goes on in a forced air ventilation system.
The efficiency rating of a gas furnace assumes the incoming air temperature is close to the desired temperature of the house- that's why it is negligible in the artificial efficiency ratings. If the incoming air is below freezing the efficiency must be different. I wish I could find a study that properly quantified this.
The cheap homebuilders around here (midwest) are still putting standard 80% efficiency gas furnaces which draw interior air in brand new homes.
But that's negligible. I'd calculate it, but i have 102 fever
That is a good point. City permits required us to add vents to our furnace enclosure, which would draw combustion air from the conditioned space, even though it was previously drawing from the attic. I just blocked the vents.
Why do you think electricity prices are high?
i'm not sure if you're serious, but the california public utilities commision's public advocates office (what a mouthful) describes california's rates as generally higher than most of the nation[0], with southern california's rates being highest (with both increasing).
you can see, for instance san diego's rates [1] which are $0.38/kWh in the winter and $0.48/kWh in the summer. for context, this means if i pay 11 dollars in electricity generation (because i'm part of a municipal electric generation coop), i'm still paying $36 for distribution/transmission/etc, which is $47 for 106kWh used or ~$.44/kWh which is roughly what electrify america charges ($.48/kWh) when i go to 'fill up my car.' as far as i can tell from talking to people, this is is more than most people anywhere in the country (including hawaii) pay for their electricity.
[0]: https://www.publicadvocates.cpuc.ca.gov/-/media/cal-advocate... [1]: https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/1-1-24%2...
fwiw, San Francisco is at $0.51/kWh for peak usage.
oooooph
It's a bit more nuanced than that (and PG&E deliberately makes their bills difficult to read). In Oakland for the baseline tier on the time of use plan:
Peak is $0.51536 (delivery) - $0.10556 (baseline credit) + $0.16225 (generation via East Bay Community Energy / Ava) or just over of $0.57 per kWh.
Off-peak is $0.48701 - $0.10556 - $0.13772 or just shy of $0.52/kWh.
Add that baseline credit back in for when you reach tier 2 (currently 12.9 kWh/day for my apartment which factors in winter usage and electric heat). I have about 3.5 kW of baseboard heaters (and use 2.75 kW at most). Whatever the duty cycle is to keep the apartment at 60°F 24x7 is well more than 12.9 kWh so obviously I don't do that anymore. Rates are set to go up again in March or April.
Gas is $2.43888/therm with tier 2 kicking in at 6.72 therms/month and minimum charge of $0.13151/day.
A combination of: mismanagement and corruption. To pay for all the people that PGE murdered with their negligence?
Why do you think electricity prices are high?
Why should the rates be 4x the rest of the country?
Because of regulations and higher costs (labor)
I’m curious if there’s a big regional difference in cost of the pretty skilled labor involved in power generation and delivery.
Which regulations? Is there much difference in labor cost and regulations between Sacramento, Santa Clara and the areas that PGE covers?
* spent billions over the past few decades on stock buybacks
* spent billions on fines and restitution for malfeasance like falsifying call-before-you-dig records
* spends tens of millions annually on stock dividends (down from billions annually pre-bankruptcy)
* used their safety budget to pay executive bonuses
* stacked the CPUC in their favor
* rakes in billions in profit (roughly $1/share EPS) annually
Utilities cost excesses in California are largely PG&E paying for its liability for causing wildfires in places where people probably shouldn’t live anyway.
For example Silicon Valley Power which serves Santa Clara (or something like that) has rates that are literally half as much as PG&E.
In Minnesota I’m paying for Xcel Energy’s mistakes in Texas.
People should be able to live wherever they want. That doesn't imply others should have to subsidize them doing so. It is really quite simple.
If someone remote wants power, they should secure power and pay for it at a market clearing rate, given the cost and risk to deliver it.
This is something else.
California has wildfires, and climate change has made them worse. Then the people who built their houses in a silly place prone to wildfires watch them burn down. This is becoming a problem as the frequency which with it happens increases, because it can bankrupt fire insurance companies (who then can't pay claims), or make fire insurance there unaffordable and then people don't buy it, their house burns down, and you have angry constituents.
The political solution to this is to put the liability on the power company whenever possible, even though it isn't really their fault. The fire is caused by dry conditions and that wood is going up the first time there is any kind of flame anywhere near it. If it wasn't PG&E it would have been a lightning strike or something else. Having the fires less often can actually make them worse.
But the power company is a deep pocket, so if there is any way to pin the fire on them, that's what everybody wants to do, so that the uninsured people in the fire zone can collect from someone and the currently insured people who are still there don't become unable to afford fire insurance.
Then the power company raises rates on everybody in their service area, including people who don't live in high fire risk areas, because the government has them acting as the fire insurance company, but now you can't cancel your "fire insurance" without turning off your electricity and it also has to be paid by people who didn't build their house in a silly place.
I pretty strongly disagree.
There is some liability on the state and voters for anti burn policy. However, there is more liability on the PG&E for failure to adequately mitigate risk, and failure to asses and frontload charges for probable payment.
If homes are uninsurable, then they shouldn't be. That should only be an issue for an insurer and home owner to work out.
If people want to live somewhere uninsurable, or with more expensive power, I have no issue whatsoever, and won't call them silly. That is their perogitive and values. I view it the same way as if someone wants to base jump, or eat a $500 steak. I fully support them doing whatever makes them happy, as long as they don't expect me to pay for it
Mitigating the risk is pointless. Wildfires are a natural occurrence in California. The ignition source is irrelevant. The fire is happening, you can't stop it.
But that's exactly what they expect you to do. Their houses are in a tinder box. There is some absurdly high probability that they'll burn. And then they're going to want to play the sympathetic victim who has just lost everything in a fire and go to the government and try to get someone else (i.e. you, via PG&E) to pay for the consequences of their choices.
The traditional way of doing this is to make the insurance pay, but they didn't have insurance because the high risk was known in advance which made the insurance unaffordable. When that's not available, the lawyers have to find someone else to sue, and in this case it's the power company.
It's not just about causing wildfires in places where people shouldn't live, but causing wildfires in places that no people actually live, but these places happen to be between other places where people live.
Solar isn't a useful source of energy for heating in California, since the demand is almost entirely during winter mornings/evenings where the sun is down.
Solar with Battery storage is a very useful source for heating energy, even in the coldest climates in CA. Even in the mountains where it drops below freezing at night, most places it's still sunny a lot more than the US average during the day. Most Battery setups I know of target a 4 day stretch of cloud cover for storage capacity, so it is certainly an option.
Where I live at 7000 feet, we have so much sunshine, even in winter, solar is a very viable option. Legislation removing people's ability to recoup the costs is the only reason it's not in every house in the city. The only option left is a much more costly battery setup.
Where I live, at 6200 feet, we have oodles of sunshine. Even so, the air-source heat pumps in my old adobe use 3x more than we generate (which in turn is 3x more than we need during the summer). No (sane, residential) battery system can handle this.
Which mostly goes to show the value and necessity for serious insulation and air-sealing, which this house does not have. Nevertheless, the point about batteries remains.
Solar takes demand out of the entire pie. So less natural gas needed during peak hours. Also move some of that excess in to energy storage and you can cover during that time in the morning.
California (and everywhere else) could make solar a lot more useful by making electricity cheaper from 10am to 3pm. If heat pumps and electric water heaters were set up to run more when the sun is out, it would noticeably decrease the evening spike in electricity demand.
Nonsense. You can put excess energy into large electric hot water heater tanks and use it later.
It requires a minimal amount of "smarts" and is all standard plumbing.
Modern great heatpumps, installed correctly, are rather between 5 and 7 in terms of COP. Also, even the best gas heating systems only achieve 90% efficiency. In other words, it either be very very very cold in your area, or you have to screw up the installation before gas has lower running(!) costs.
Besides that, a gas power plant easily achieves 33% of efficiency for generating electricity from gas, rather 50% for the new ones. In other words, if the price for electricity is more than 3 times as high as gas, there is a high chance that it's due to tax, regulations, etc. Though, the price for maintaining a stronger power grid comes on top.
I dunno. My mom’s heating bills in Indiana using heat pumps with auxiliary electric heaters was >$700 month at electricity costing 11c/kwh. I live in Massachusetts where my electricity cost 33c/kwh. So if I used my mom’s heater to heat a house of similar size, my heating bill will be $2k/month. My heating gas bill is under 120/month.
I understand a bulk of that cost comes from the aux resistive electric heater. But for really cold places, that’s needed when the heat pump can’t keep up or you need to rapidly warm the house.
As is, we are still quite far from heat pumps being cost efficient as gas for places that get really cold
I don't think so.
Check those measures for some example heatpump: https://www.eurovent-certification.com/en/catalog/program/ce...
They are not from the manufacturer but from an independent service that is used by various states that are members of the eu.
As you can see, at -7 degrees celsius, the COP is still almost 4. So even at that temperature, this heatpump is still about twice as afficient as burning gas directly.
Of course, it depends on the correct installation. It's easier to screw up the installation of a heat pump than a gas heating system. But it doesn't invalidate the theoretical bounds.
> stop the attacks on solar installation
I don't know if the experience of a Brit with a roof covered in solar panels applies in California, but: during months when you want to run the heat pump, your solar won't be producing shit.
In Orange county, CA, we generated 16.6kWh today, on a 5.6kWh system, and it's been partially sunny with some sporadic rain storms.
Why would they reign in one of the best ways to ensure that Calpers remains solvent?
How are they related? Investments in PGE, which has had poor returns?
It will have a lower price but not a lower cost. At this point we can't wait for price efficiency we have to pay whatever dollar amount to avoid the catastrophic human costs of burning fossil fuels.
The point you’re missing is electricity should never be expensive, if it is then you’re doing something very stupid.
Natural gas may be cheap but the cost of the meter and other admin fees cost about as much as the gas.
Or, they could increase the price of natural gas (perhaps using a tax)
Natural gas prices have gone through the roof in CA, people with old gas furnaces are the hardest hit in winter. We saved quite a bit when we upgraded to a heat pump.
Alright, maybe I’m out of touch, but I don’t think electricity is expensive in California.
Even during 115 degree heatwaves in a 70-year-old, 3-bedroom, single-family home. Most I paid was $100 in a month with 2 people with gaming computers working from home.
Not everyone has that kind of money, but my point is that most people have cell service and other services which add up to more than electricity costs.
That’s fine, I make no judgement of what people spend. I’m just setting a comparison. For how much value electricity provides us and how much we use it, I wouldn’t call it expensive, even in California.
YMMV by city, but it wasn’t an issue in Sacramento. The real monster is climate change, and so here we have a chicken-and-egg problem combined with wealth disparity.
I think we need comprehensive social program packages to address this.
How? It's $0.52/kwh here, and before that rate increase, we were paying (edit) $278/mo in the summer for similar (70 year old 3 bedroom house), and slightly lower temepratures.
For context of how crazy that is... here in OH we pay ~$0.12/kwh
Another factor is topography. Ohio is pretty flat and running power lines around it is not that hard. California is big and has lots of rugged terrain. It costs a lot more to bring power to the small town in the California mountains, and those costs have to be paid by the urban and sub-urban customers of our large state-wide utilities.
I used to live in PA and have several family members on both sides there. No matter the topography the rates are still around that.
In reality - PG&E has been soaking the ratepayer for decades while doing terrible maintenance - and now gets to soak the ratepayer again while fixing all the terrible issues they themselves created in the least efficient method possible.
It’s truly amazing to behold.
Keep in mind PG&E rates had to cover billions in stock buybacks, billions in dividends annually, hundreds of millions in fighting municipal power, and billions in profit annually. The terrain isn't the problem, greed is.
My mom in Indiana pays $0.11/kwh.
I pay $0.35/kwh here outside of Boston. The electricity generation part of my bill alone $0.19/kwh dwarfs her entire bill
Time-of-day program with SMUD. Ran the AC as cool as it could go before peak, turned it off during peak. At move-in we dumped multiple feet of insulation (more than code requires) into the place. At worst it got to 80 degrees.
Might have been a bit over $100, but I’m just as flabbergasted at your $278.
I think you are out of touch. You need to compare the PGE rates with SMUD to get the picture.
https://www.smud.org/en/Rate-Information/Residential-rates
https://www.pge.com/assets/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/resid... (PDF File)
PGE's off-peak rates are 3x SMUD's off-peak rates. PGE's peak rates are 1.5x to almost 2x of SMUD's peak rates.
There’s no need to be disrespectful. Just as I need to understand that you have a different rate than I did, vice versa.
You’re missing the actual point of my original post
Lol. Dogpile away. Imma count my money I saved and sit here in my early retirement.
Let’s say 30 kWh per day is the norm to run ac in the summer.
Assuming $.40 per kWh, which is lower than my PGE rate, that’s $360 per month just to run the ac.
Not sure what kind of setup you have. $100 is my bill if I’m not home in the winter and leave everything off.
I’m picking up a sentiment from the downvotes so let me defend: I’m not lying lol.
SMUD time of day. Ran the AC super cold during the night (so it would run the entire off-peak period). Ran it somewhat cool during mid-peak. Didn’t use it at all during peak.
Other appliances I only ran at night.
Installed lots of insulation at move-in.
Like I said in OP, Sacramento. YMMV.
But in any case I’d argue $360 is still not expensive per se given the value you’re getting. How many square feet were you cooling? What else was operating?
It’s just about perspective. I was responding to the claim that electricity is expensive.
When I looked into this, I learned that we pay 2x what neighboring states pay.
Looks like California has the 3rd highest rate after Hawaii and Rhode Island:
https://www.chooseenergy.com/electricity-rates-by-state/
With the latest PG&E rate hike, my off-peak rate is 33c/kwh and the highest peak rate in 66c. I think the national average is 19c? That seems like a pretty drastic difference to me.
The cost relative to other places is a different consideration than the value per dollar relative to our other expenses. OP is speaking to the latter.
FYI, a monthly bill is essentially useless information. How big is your house? What are you using it for? How efficient is your fridge? Your A/C? How much is the fixed cost part of the bill? Etc.
I'm assuming, since you mention Sacramento and peak hours, these[0] are your rates? Next time, share those so folks in other places can compare. That page has these:
Summer:
* Off-peak: $0.1425 kWh
* Mid-peak: $0.1967 kWh
* Peak: $0.3462 kWh
Non-Summer
* Off-peak: $0.1151 kWh
* Peak: $0.1590 kWh
That's pretty high, but I think middling to low for California. For comparison, in my town outside Chicago, we have a year-round all-day rate of $0.12 kWh.
[0] https://www.smud.org/en/Rate-Information/Residential-rates
Can you share your rate during that period? Makes for a simpler comparison
yeah, there's absolutely no "maybe" about it, you are definitely out of touch :). I don't know in what way exactly, but something is off. What is your per kwh rate exactly? You might be getting some kind of subsidies that you are not aware of, perhaps? I used to live in a 1200 sqft house in LA without any AC or anything consuming too much electricity, and 10 years ago before all the rate hikes I was still paying more than $100/month in west LA.
That's because you're on SMUD, not PG&E, so you're not getting charged to cover the maintenance and liabilities of above-ground high-voltage power lines going into a forest on a mountain in the middle of nowhere.
Yeah, I made this mistake this year. I pumped $20k into a heat pump system, coming from what used to be Natural Gas. I wasn't given any kind of relief because I live in Oregon where most relief is income based. Then at the beginning of the year PGE announced a 20% rate hike. My house is covered in trees, so solar isn't really an option. I really regretted my decision once I got a $300-$400 bill for heating three months in a row. In the summer I now have AC where I didn't at all before, but it hardly makes up for the cost of a heat pump during winter. I probably won't be doing any of these kinds programs again.
$20k for a heat pump is sky high, you better have gotten a 24 SEER2 state of the art fully variable system for that.
If they sold you a 14 SEER1 for that then you got absolutely screwed.
Perhaps you know already, but a lot of the price is often the installation labor, not the device itself.
Just as a data point, $20K is right in the ballpark for estimates you'll get for professional installation of a modern ≈3-ton forced-air 17SEER heatpump + air handler in the Seattle area.
Even in the expensive Bay Area, I got a quote of only $10k to install a heat pump. It was basically the same price to install a new gas furnace + AC for summer.
But what kind? For instance, a mini-split in an apartment is quite different from the 3-ton forced-air system I described.
People use the term "heat pump" to sometimes describe quite different things, so it's hard to know what's apples-to-apples.
It's a forced-air system sized for a moderately insulated 1300 sqft home. Don't know how many tons or the SEER rating.
You hit the nail on the head, but mine is a 5 channel Daikin heat pump. I got a bit of a deal because I paid in cash.
It was a 5 channel heat pump with a single condenser. As the other commenter wrote it was mostly wrapped up in labor. For what it's worth, they're 24 SEER Daikin units. It's priced at replacing the AC and heat for an entire house, so compare it to a large AC installation.
That feels like a lot of electricity usage for such high seer, in Oregon. Are you positive that electric backup wasn't being triggered for some reason?
I'm moving from Portland to McMinnville in a couple of months. Price of kwh goes from $.1945/kwh to about $.0720. I've noticed that McMinnville Water & Light doesn't help pay for EV connections, etc. compared to Portland General Electric but at almost 1/3rd the cost, they probably don't need to.
MW&L is community-owned, PGE is traded on the NYSE. They both buy a ton of hydro from the Bonneville Power Administration.
https://findenergy.com/providers/mcminnville-water-and-light... gives an average. Actual per kwh rate is cheaper but there's a $16.10 customer charge to have an account. https://www.mc-power.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/pdf/ra...
https://portlandgeneral.com/about/info/pricing-plans
IIRC there's also a legacy superfund cleanup charge that PGE customers have the privilege of paying.
Yeah, this is the move, imo. I think once my mortgage goes positive I'm going to look at where to go next. This is not worth it.
For those installation comparing costs, the subreddit has a Heat Pump Quote Comparison Survey:
https://www.reddit.com/r/heatpumps/comments/raocha/heat_pump...
I'm not in NE, so forgive me if this is obvious, but high electricity prices might make solar attractive to you. (Unrelated to the heat-pump question.)
I'm in a similar high-priced environment, but we get a fair amount of sun. I'm getting around a 16% return on capital based on electricity usage reduction.
I use solar, but using heat pumps and an electric car uses maybe 3x more electricity than my roof can produce.
Higher efficiency panels + vertical panels would help. Most houses have decent south-facing walls.
Ground mount is also an option in many places.
6.7kW ground mount here in NM, still can't heat my home in winter in this climate (would need 21kW with my Mitsubishi hyper-heat units). We have relatively OK passive solar contributions too.
6.7kw is tiny. The smallest install I’ve personally seen is 15kw.
Pretty standard size for New Mexico. I have numerous neighbors with 6-12kW systems.
Live underground and convert your whole yard to arrays of panels!
20kW ground mount array in NH produces twice as much as we need for our 4 heat pumps heating 3000 sqft. Went into the last two winters expecting to deplete our summer credits with the power company but we have only used about 1/6th of it.
Definitely doable.
New England just doesn't have a lot of light. The time to return on investment is commendurately longer. And in the winter it's much worse.
NREL has solar availability maps. Alas the scale sucks; there's great monthly average views, but all done with the same yearly average scale, so during the summer everything is the same full-red potential (>5.75 kWh/m^2/d) and during the winter everything is (mostly) the same low potential (<4kWh/m^2/d). Still, one can kind of read some pattern from fall/spring & see how a lot of NE looks a lot like, say, Seattle (<<4 average). https://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar-resource-maps.html
Solar is so cheap it usually still makes sense financially even in areas without a lot of sun, but less so.
Lots of cold places in northern latitudes have short winter days that are overcast more often than not yielding only a little solar energy for a big chunk of the year.
What's the temperature in the ground? Did you look at a ground source heat pump (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_source_heat_pump)
There's a reason NH is called "The Granite State."
Planning to put things underground in at least that part of New England is not likely to go very well. It can be done (plenty of places have septic tanks, for example), but it's not easy.
Unless you live in one of the few big cities in NH, you'll likely already have an Artesian (drilled) well. Swap out the pump for a variable speed pump and you should be good to go for a GSHP -- a much better option for NH vs an Air Source Heat Pump. Otherwise, it'll cost $15-20K for a well to be drilled. You get about 1-ton of heating/cooling per 100' of drilled well.
"Artesian" does not mean "drilled". It means the well emits water without pumping. You have to be downhill from the watershed for that to work.
You are correct! Around here (NH) the artesian nomenclature usually means drilled vs a dug well (i.e. a covered, but relatively shallow pit that fills up with ground water). The drilled wells are usually around 300+ ft deep and have a submersible pump near the bottom that is used to fill the pressure tank.
I have - the cost of installing such a system makes it questionable if it will ever be worth it. I've seen a few places that have it and they work great year round and are cheap to operate. However the payoff from the install if 50+ years despite the cheap costs. Everyone hopes the install lasts that long, but a lot can go wrong in 50 years. (the equipment probably won't last 50 years, but that will be cheap enough to replaces, it is the pipes in the ground that better last 50 years)
A large chunk of cost is drilling the holes for the loop. New, compact drilling rigs that use 10' drill sections are a good deal cheaper to run labor-wise and require less space to maneuver. Costs will come down as more companies switch to these rigs.
What are some examples of these new drilling rigs?
The big cost for ground source HP, is the large area you have to dig with 4 foot deep trenches. I have seen one where the installer digs 2 trenches about 16 feet apart and 30 feet long down to 6 feet. They then use a soil drill to make about 50-60 holes between the trenches and insert 17 foot plastic pipes(1 inch diameter) They then connect the pipes on each side to a common pipe(3"), all well sealed ABS pipes below the frost line. This allow for a large volume of coupled and warm(55 degrees) that the heat pump extracts/deposits heat as needed for heating/cooling the home. This drilling is a lot cheaper than a dozen or more 3 foot trenchs for the water loops.
Essentially: We will only accept climate change action if it’s not degrading our standard of living which is predicated on consuming unsustainably.
The end.
Well good luck trying to get people to lower their standard of living in pursuit of an abstract solution to a problem that can only be represented with predictive modeling.
Nah, failure to act on climate change will also reduce their standard of living unless they are rich enough to buy their way to a bunker in NZ.
That's a large part of the issue: it probably won't. It will reduce the standard of living of future generations, but for people in the prime earning and consuming phase of their life (say 40-65 years old), climate change isn't going to have anywhere near as detectable, let alone large, effect on their life as spending $20K on heat pumps, giving up a car and taking more public transit, taking fewer tropical vacations, or even setting the heating thermostat to 69°F rather than 71°F.
Yeah, people should freeze or die of heat stroke.
Tell me more about your frictionless spherical world.
Maybe I missed the point, but I don't see anything in GPs post that indicates they want people to freeze or die of heat stroke. Or suggest anything that would lead to folks freezing or dying from heat stroke.
I like how this comment spawned anger from both extremes.
You're barking up the wrong tree. (i) systemic change on a global scale is needed, individual actions don't "matter". (ii) corporations and governments are the only entities large enough to make changes. Governments need to force companies and incentivize individuals to make better choices, and help those that would be financially disadvantaged by those choices. (iii) paradoxically, while individual actions don't "matter", they add up of course. Both in energy usuage, and in voting. The latter is more important if we want governments to force and incentivize companies and individuals to make positive changes. So giving the environmental cause a bad name by yelling at individuals for making sensible financial choices is going to cost the green cause voters, which we sorely need.
Stop it.
I'm in Canada and we have heat pumps with secondary heat sources for when it gets really cold. Mine is with gas.
Yup, me too. And with my Nest thermostat, I can manually configure the crossover point. I did so at the economic balance point (where the heat pump is cheaper than my gas furnace).
Is there any capability in having a "smart" economic balance point? IE: Accounts for time of day/market pricing of kwh? I guess there needs to be occasional reprogramming of gas prices?
No, unfortunately. But my gas/electricity is fixed price, so it doesn’t matter. I’m sure this will be coming as heat pumps get more common. It’s a pretty easy calculation to do.
These sorts of programs generally require you to disable your existing heating system, and don't allow you to run it only in warmer weather.
Ex, Massachusetts: https://www.masssave.com/-/media/Files/PDFs/Save/Residential...
Note that's for the whole home $10K rebate only. For the per-ton rebate, you can leave the existing fossil fueled appliance installed and connected. (It's also new for 2024; the 2023 rules allowed you to leave the appliance in to be used for supplemental heat during extreme cold or during an equipment outage. https://www.masssave.com/-/media/Files/PDFs/Save/Residential... )
It's a big problem for electric cars too... Here are the current prices per kwh for me in MA:
Electricity = $.26 / kwh
Propane (LPG) = .134 / kwh
Heating oil = .095 / kwh
Gasoline = .091 / kwh
Natural Gas = .082 / kwh
You still need to account for efficiency of the various fuels when working out which one is cheapest.
An electric vehicle is on the order of 5X more efficient than a gasoline vehicle per kWh (that is, an EV that will go 5 km on 1 kWh of electricity would be lucky to get 1 km per kWh if it were running on gasoline).
So in this case, it's still cheaper to operate an EV than a gasoline vehicle in MA, even if electricity costs more per kWh.
It's more like 2.5 to 3x for good ICE cars (they are around 30% efficient- I think it's been going up over the years, in the past I assumed 15%):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency#:~:text=in%2....
But anyway, the big issue is for electric cars fast chargers, more like $.48 / kwh..
For carbon emissions, the WTW (Well to wheel) efficiency is more important- they are about the same unfortunately (we need more solar):
https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2020SJRUE..24..669A/abstra....
The fleet average real-world fuel efficiency for light petrol vehicles in my country, based on government data, is 9.2 litres/100km. (I'm guessing it's significantly worse than this in the USA where the average vehicle is larger and there is less focus on fuel efficiency)
At 8.9 kWh per litre, that means gasoline takes 81.88 kWh to get you 100 km. A typical EV, on the other hand, will use about 18 kWh to go 100 km (at 5.5 km per kWh). That makes the EV around 4.5 times more efficient.
As for carbon emissions, burning 1 litre of gasoline creates 2.3kg of CO2. At 9.2 litres per 100 km, that works out around 210g per km.
Grid carbon intensity varies greatly by country and region. In France at only 42g/kWh, an EV's energy would emit less than 10g per km, even after accounting for grid and charging inefficiencies! But even in coal-dependent Germany at 354g CO2/kWh (2023), an EV would be well under 100g per km, still better than an average petrol car.
(Also, remember that auto industry emissions/efficiency numbers are based on testing protocols which produce far lower figures than the real world. And do not account for upstream emissions in the fossil fuel supply chain - there is an awful lot of upstream carbon emitted to produce 1 litre of gasoline!)
I agree we should look at the whole picture but that would mean to look at how much CO2 is rejected to produce an EV compare to a Petrol car and how much to recycle it.
Enough of this theory. I live in Boston area. I have rented an EV and a gas vehicle and covered the same distance. The EV cos more to cover the same distance. Like 2x more. And that’s before the inconvenience of hunting for places to recharge and the time wasted at charging stations, and range anxiety.
Maybe the math is different for those who can charge at home. I’m tired of people waving abstract thermodynamics math at me when talking about real life economics I faced
Also, doesn't states like MA import a not-insignificant amount of natural gas from elsewhere to convert to electricity? Would like to hear about what's more efficient: direct natural gas heating vs natural gas -> electricity -> heat pump...
Yes, and for nominally climate-driven reasons MA has constrained the construction of pipelines and other facilities that would allow the cheaper delivery of natural gas for cheaper electricity… thus discouraging consumers like me from moving to electrical utilities that would net reduce emissions.
And you have Maine getting in the way of hydroelectricity from Quebec making its way over:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/hydro-quebec-1.68167...
https://www.hydroquebec.com/projects/appalaches-maine-interc...
It's probably more accurate to say the concerns are about the environment rather than climate per se. There's more to protecting than the environment than limiting carbon emissions. (I'm not saying they're right to make that tradeoff in this particular case.)
The big issue in New England is that heat pumps (ASHP or GSHP) are only really possible for new builds. Most existing homes will likely be forced hot water and there isn't any heat pump out there that will produce water hot enough (e.g. 185F), so your only option is to retrofit ducting (or go mini-split but then you need one in every room).
Even homes with ducted AC, it's likely they are sized for cooling only, not heat (not enough CFMs).
For 185:
https://www.arcticheatpumps.com/high-temperature-heat-pump.h...
Or much more common, if you can deal with 176F, the SANCO2 ones will generate that down to -20F.
The hydronic temperatures you're talking about are only required if you have to stick with the existing radiators. They make radiators with little fans that work at lower temperatures, or larger panel radiators. There's lots of options for lower temperature forced hot water.
That's interesting, I hadn't yet seen any heat pumps capable of producing water that hot.
As far as replacing baseboard goes, if you're going to go to that expense, then probably it's just best to switch to forced air since you also get AC.
But you'd be looking at probably close to $40K to entirely replace a forced hot water system with a heat pump and forced air (and/or replacing baseboards) as well as a DHW system of some sort -- so quite cost prohibitive.
While I agree that a heat pump can't work with hot water baseboard, there is an alternative.
The alternative is removing the baseboard and with a calculated heat load, replacing with panel radiators which run with much lower temperatures. The retrofit wouldn't be too difficult (compared to ducting) as it would involve running 1/2 inch PEX to each room.
If heat pumps get inefficient at low temps could we not program them to run full blast during the warmest parts of the day and preheat the home. Thus needing to run less at night.
Maybe, but unless your house is very well insulated, this would probably require making the home so warm as to be very uncomfortable.
I live in New England in a small house (<700 sqft), and it easily drops 5 degrees an hour when it's 65 inside and 15 outside.
With an air to water heat pump, you typically add a buffer tank that among other things helps keep preheated water warm. It is basically a hot water tank so doesn't last through the night
However for other hydronic applications such as solar water heaters there is typically a thermal storage tank which can help store heat like a battery.
Keep in mind a few things. One is some heat pumps are now operating down around -22*F. Second is geothermal is a water to water heat pump that isn't affected as much by the limitations of air temperature (but has other limitations). Third is radiant heat flooring with tubes in concrete acts as a thermal storage tank. Finally heat pumps for heating work best at low temperature hydronic water and can also be used for other applications such as DHW (domestic hot water) which needs to be at slightly higher temperatures than a buffer tank has.
Pretty much the majority of north east homes are not that well insulated. Then you get to bigger buildings where by health and building code you must always have a certain % of fresh air intake otherwise you'll end up choking on your own carbon dioxide lol.
If electricity is costly, it makes sense to put solar panels. Consolidate all energy (transportation - EV, HVAC - electric, induction stove, heat pump water heater), put solar panels, and wipe off all energy bills. Every household can save $400 - $800 on utility bills.
I’m not in New England but I’m imagining that the cold winters there are accompanied but plenty of cloudy skies as well. In that case solar might not be a great option.
There's an opposite of that too: solar-powered A/C in the south in summer time: lots of heat, lots of humidity ... and lots of clouds.
Why wouldn't heat pump work on gas?
It's already done -- RV fridges work on propane directly, without converting it to electricity. A fridge is a heat pump.
Apparently they do, but they're not common for houses yet.
https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/absorption-heat-pumps
We tried one in the south and it was a pretty horrible experience, because of our high humidity in the cold.
The outside unit constantly froze up, which even ideally requires a defrost cycle (wasting energy pumping heat back outside), or worse, uses heating element outside just to make operable.
While those cycles run, heat couldn't. Except that even emergency heat (heating element inside) would disable the outside defrost, supposedly to meet EPA set energy budget, not technology limits.
That's not the kind of BS you want to put up with on frozen nights, whether from a technology or policy standpoint.
You likely had an old, low SEER heat pump. The fact that it had emergency heat at all says so.
Large drilling costs from where I am in the south due to ground being mostly (lime?)stone: makes it cost-infeasbile. Other areas might have it easier though.
It can vary over the micro-scale. Where I live in NM, we could go down very deep and never hit rock, because we're sitting on the soft sandy soil(ish) alluvial deposits at the bottom of large (20 mile diameter) basin. But neighbors who live less than 1 mile away are sitting on metamorphic rock just inches below the surface.
Here in NJ there aren't any days like that any more. Its like heat pumps wouldn't be great in the old days but in today's new climate they're great.
Thing is, HVAC people rob you blind when you need emergency repairs to gas or oil furnaces in the middle of the season. If you have a heat pump as a backup, that can tide you over until you can get off season repair pricing again. That's well worth it to me, even at the higher electricity rates.
That's right. In MA I'm paying a marginal $0.316/kWh for electric and $1.999/therm for natural gas, heating a two-family 10-person building. Switching to a heat pump would be an additional $1k/y in heating costs, and that's ignoring the cost of the system (which is substantial even after the $20k MA subsidy this article discusses).
More: https://www.jefftk.com/p/running-the-numbers-on-a-heat-pump
The big thing to keep in mind is that California natural gas prices spiked for a bit last year. All of a sudden gas heat was very, very expensive.
The heat pump that I had also had an heating element.. so it could possibly automatically switch from one method of heating to the other....
Warning: two- and three-head units are 30% less efficient than single-head units, and units with more than three heads are 50% as efficient (based on real-life measurements, in MN IIRC). So at least pick one single-head hyper-efficient unit, like a Gree Sapphire, to heat the largest and most-used room. If you don't mind the extra condensers, one outdoor unit per head is the best
I didn’t pay anywhere near that price per kWh here in Maine. It was $0.16 in November 2023, and is $0.10 as of January 1.
[ETA] I just did the math to include delivery as well as generation cost if that’s what the table is meant to reflect, and I’m still below $0.20/kWh in November. Shrug. I was paying nearly $0.50 in California before moving here…