Framework Laptop 16 Review

I'm happy to answer any questions folks have on this product.

Are there any plans to offer larger batteries and/or improve battery efficiency? From what I've read battery life is still an issue many seem to be having.

With the greatest respect it's 2024, a laptop should be capable of 8 hours at the very minimum for a mid range model but I'm seeing a lot of people getting sub 2 hours.

The 16 ticks all the boxes for me but I've held off for now as having the possibility of worse battery life than my old 2015 mac isn't as you can imagine making for a compelling upgrade.

I'm surprised to be reading that, honestly. I have a first batch framework 13 without any upgrades and I spent the summer working with it outside. Nothing super crazy, 4-6 hour stretches in the park, but I never remember cutting it close with the battery. As long as we're sharing anecdotes, I'm happy with the battery life FWIW...

Edit: I'm running linux. I don't recall doing any battery optimization but maybe I installed or configured something a few years ago? I don't change things often.

Another edit: I just checked and I do have TLP installed!

I love framework's mission. I would not change the past on buying a framework. To provide a counter example, quite often I open my bag to find that my Framework 13 has cooked itself in the bag. The battery life, and the bad intel sleep management have been a thorn in my side since I got it. But the power management does leave much to be desired.

Given LTT's review of the laptop, it may be best to wait for the 2nd revision of this which hopefully will deal with the deck flex and screen consistency issues.

You're not alone with the cooking laptop in a bag running Linux issue. I had those in the past with Dell/Toshiba laptops in the past.

Dell Windows laptops will also cook themselves. (For example: https://www.dell.com/community/en/conversations/xps/dell-957...)

Macbooks are the only device I would trust to not light a bag on fire…

Anecdata but I've had a MacBook do the cooking once, but it thermal throttled itself so it just got warm, not super hot.

Yeah I once had my old Macbook Air get insanely hot to the point it felt dangerous. I left it in the sink (dry and in case it blew up it would be somewhere non-flammable) to calm down and it was fine a few hours later.

It's funny but sad how this has literally been an issue for 20+ years and yet still no one can fix it. I've tried with many laptops, both Windows and Linux, and the only one that can reliably go into a backpack with >90% charge and come out after a flight with >80% is a Macbook, and that's also been true for more than a decade.

It does feel like Linux sleep is nearly impossible to do well. My go-to example of jaw-dropping, industry-leading Linux hardware support is the Steam Deck. They deserve lots of praise for the monumental effort and achievement to make that product work as well as it does. The sleep functionality is trash though, even after they put a ton of work in.

It’s excellent in that I can suspend any software and have it come back to life exactly the way I expect (no small feat!) and it’s excellent that it never cooks itself when unattended in a case or bag, but it is total trash that it eats 20-30% battery a day while “off”. That’s not a bug, but expected behavior. It’s just not what I have come to expect from a modern computer, and portable Macs haven’t behaved that way since about 2005.

Another counterpoint, I have that same not-suspending-thus-cooking-in-my-bag issue often with a thinkpad P14s running windows 10 (intel i7-1270p) .

However, my (5+ yrs old?) T480s running linuxmint never does it (i5-8250u). YMMV

Is this going to sleep? Or hibernate? I found that most notebooks(under Windows) are horrible at "sleeping", but if you enable hibernate, then the notebook can last days, without losing charge. (Dell, HP, Asus, etc.)

I think the expectation for battery life for most these days is closer to what can be found on e.g. M-series MacBooks or in the x86 world, HP Dragonfly and some ASUS Zenbooks, which range between 14 and 22 hours.

Battery life is inherently a trade off against performance and weight.

It's also a trade off against competence, because you can kill the battery right quick if drivers don't idle things properly, but even after you address that you still have the other thing.

Which makes 16+ hour battery life an odd choice for most people. Who uses their laptop for 16 contiguous hours with no opportunity to charge? It could have been lighter or faster.

Naturally Framework has the potential to make it flexible: Have a dual-use bay where one of the options is a second battery, and then if you want it you take the weight/battery life trade off in favor of battery life, and if not the machine can be lighter.

Long battery life isn’t so much about contiguous use as it is about not needing to think about charging as often and being able to not carry a laptop charger brick on excursions. It also lets you still have “normal” laptop life left over after periods of high-intensity usage.

Also generally speaking more efficient laptops are cooler which is generally a quality welcome in a device sometimes used in a person’s lap.

Yea, the Framework's battery issue for me is mostly that there is almost literally no point I could ever trust not having a power outlet nearby with the cable. I've had times where the computer, while fully shut down, loses 30% of the battery life in a few hours.

Sure, it's the bulk of a Macbook Air, but I often leave that open, with the screen on, running VMs for work all day without it being plugged in. I expect that any time I open it, I'll have at least 30-60 minutes of use before I need to plug it in. My Framework, more often than not, tells me it's about to emergency shut down as soon as I log in.

I've had times where the computer, while fully shut down, loses 30% of the battery life in a few hours.

Did you report this issue to Framework? Do other users have similar issues?

being able to not carry a laptop charger brick on excursions. It also lets you still have “normal” laptop life left over after periods of high-intensity usage.

This is just the same trade off. For a given level of efficiency you could have put in a smaller battery and offset the weight of a second battery / charging brick that you would then only need when you need many hours of battery life.

Also generally speaking more efficient laptops are cooler which is generally a quality welcome in a device sometimes used in a person’s lap.

That isn't really part of the trade off either. The faster ones generally don't have worse performance per watt -- they're often better because they have more cores with lower clock speeds. You get 100% more cores with 75% more performance for 50% more power consumption. For the same load they generate less heat. See also "race to idle".

They only generate more heat in absolute terms if you put more load on them than the slower alternative would have been able to handle.

Me. Road trips. Bad weather. Airports without charging options. 16h would be a bad day but it isnt outside the possible. Also, power outages and when i just forget to charge overnight.

I'd disagree that its a tradeoff of weight. The macbook air is an incredibly light weight laptop yet still pushes 18hrs battery life on the 13" model, even the 14" pro at 22 hours is still lighter than most laptops.

The weight isnt the problem. It's the poor optimisation of hardware and software.

I have an 11th gen and have terrible battery life. Always have. I would not describe the Linux support from Framework as sterling but bad battery life remains the same between my Linux and Windows sides if a little better on Windows.

Battery is what prevents me from taking my 13 framework with me when traveling. I spend most of my time in pycharm, rebuild docker containers constantly, and have celery + postgres + redis running full tilt. The fan is running constantly, it's always burning hot, and the battery lasts under 2 hours (if I'm really lucky).

Previous generation Macbook running the same workload last for 6+ hours.

That said, for someone who isn't going to be running every core at 100% all the time, I'd still recommend it.

Edit: Oh, and under arch with the latest kernel, I find many monitors that cannot display video output over usb-c, like the Dell U4919DW.

Mildly curious what kind of task requires that usage profile on a laptop (in general but especially while traveling?)

I think you need to clarify your question because the comment you are replying to clearly states the workload they have?

You don’t dev on a laptop?

When I occasionally go into the office it's a ~4 hour round trip by train, and I work during that time. It's simply running a dev environment.

At the end of the day, all the work a CPU does turns into heat. If you want less heat you need the CPU to do fewer calculations.

If you have processes pegging CPUs at 100% and you don't want them to, then use a cgroup to limit their CPU time.

If you want less heat you need the CPU to do fewer calculations.

You do understand that different machines can do the same calculations with different amounts of energy, right?

We all understand battery life isn't framework's strong point.

Still, if your dev environment is using CPU constantly you're likely doing something inefficiently. Redis and postgres don't do much unless you ask them to, for example.

For reference, here is Notebookcheck's review stating 9 hours of real world battery life in web browsing (though on Windows): https://www.notebookcheck.net/Radeon-RX-7700S-performance-de...

For Linux, when following our installation guides for power optimization, power consumption with integrated graphics should be similar.

Edit: Tom's Hardware similarly reports 9 hours on Windows (with Graphics Module installed): https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/framework-laptop-16-rev....

Can you elaborate more about the tradeoffs here?

I'm in the same boat, looking for as light as possible with a much battery as possible, was banking on the 16 yet we get 9 hours instead of (an assumed) ~10-11, and 2.1/2.4kg.

Somehow the Thinkpad Extreme X1 and the new Zephyrus G16 have similar CPUs, dGPUs, a >90Whr battery and they weigh less than 2kg.

Where's most the weight going? Will I be able to buy a FW 16 and eliminate weight to achieve similar specs? Literally asking about using a "stripped down version".

Frankly that weight is from the modularity of the system. To build something repairable/modular requires scaffolding this isn't necessary if you solder and glue everything together; that's why companies like Apple do it. You are giving up some things in order to get the promised repairability of a framework.

If you want the lightest laptop with the longest battery life, you'd get a Mac. If you want the best bang for your buck go with a basic Ultrabook. If your willing to have a bit more weight, size and a bit less battery in exchange for repairability/customization, that's the niche framework fits well.

One huge caveat that makes me most unhappy with my framework 13 purchase is power draw on HDMI BIOS bug gives me 1-2 hours battery life.

As a result, its beginning to resemble a paperweight.

I don't know about my 100-0 battery time. What I know is that suspend on Fedora/Framework is *not* valid for overnight or longer sessions. My battery will drain 50% in two days on suspend, vs weeks for a MacBook.

I now make sure to save my work and shut the laptop off completely at the end of a session.

Are there any plans to offer larger batteries and/or improve battery efficiency?

discussion: https://community.frame.work/t/simple-extra-battery-for-the-...

Very likely. They already announced recently a better battery for the 13 models so I don't see why they wouldn't if they have the opportunity

When will it be available in Sweden?

I followed the prompt on the website and signed up for the newsletter, but I got so much marketing spam that was totally irrelevant to my one and only question that I had to unsubscribe.

rest of the EU is supported via reshipping https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/eu-unsupported-SJByUb...

"Supported" is a stretch.

All warranty service will require a shipping address within one of the EU countries we ship to.

So if I need to warranty something, I need to figure out how to have a shipping address in, say, Germany? Easy!

Oh and if the 2.5k€ laptop gets damaged by a 3rd party shipping company, I'm on the hook for it.

Yea, I'll wait. I can't figure out why it's so hard to ship stuff within the EU. The whole purpose of the European Union is to make moving products easy inside its borders.

I can't figure out why it's so hard to ship stuff within the EU

it's not, at least not in my experience.

Shipping is quite easy, especially for small and expensive things like laptops, where adding cost of DHL/DPD shipping is not a major deal.

Tangentially, as they are doing it already, selling _to consumers_ is quite hard. Each country has different regulation placing a lot of obligations on the seller.

Each country has different regulation placing a lot of obligations on the seller.

Such as? Just curious

Warranty terms, language support, needing a legal representative in every country, to start.

I'm a 1000% sure the place I order my stuff from in Germany doesn't have a representative in Finland.

That's the whole damn point of the EU.

I think there might be some regulation on having the instructions written in the native language, but that's like 100€ to a translator for an one-time job. No laptop comes with an extensive manual.

Warranty terms are EU-wide too mostly, there are some country-specific exceptions, but nothing that would require a huge legal team to handle.

Yeah that's what I thought, I've ordered from many places in the EU that do not have any kind of presence or representative in my country.

Each country has different regulation

IIRC they are fairly consistent across the EU (simplifying cross border commerce is one of main reasons it exists)

What's the best reshipping service for the rest of the EU?

Same question but for Finland.

I’ve got the money here, had it for at least two years. I just don’t have a way to give it to Framework

Same question, same frustration, from Norway

My guess: The real problem is warranty returns by mail.

Same question but for Switzerland.

Curious as well

but I got so much marketing spam that was totally irrelevant to my one and only question that I had to unsubscribe

Make sure you don't tick the "Stay up to date with Framework newsletters" checkbox, I didn't and haven't received any marketing

Hi - Linux still has spotty fractional scaling support. It would be nice to have a display option that is either usable without fractional scaling (1920x1200) or one that works with 2x scaling (3840x2400).

It's on the road to improve, as GNOME continues work here. KDE users have reported a cleaner look overall for applications that are not displaying in a way folks would like to see. Fedora Workstation for example, keeps folks to a 100 or 200% scale due to this, but it can be enabled easily enough if on e prefers.

This is an area of active development that will continue to see improvement.

Note GTK3/4 doesn't have true fractional scaling. What it does is scaling up to 2x and downsample to the required resolution. This is not that visible but it does produce some blur, along with the performance overhead. Qt5 doesn't support it either, though Qt6 does. Of course we'll see improvement, but I doubt it would get to the same level as Windows in the next 5 years or so, which is a long time.

This is not that visible but it does produce some blur

At these pixel sizes (except 125%), it is irrelevant. MacOS and iPhone do exactly the same for years, and nobody was ever bothered.

along with the performance overhead.

By the increased resolution of the framebuffer; the scaling itself is done by hardware (and here I do not mean GPU; I mean output encoder).

125% and 150% are really common for available laptops though. The former for the 1920x1200 13-14 inch laptops, the latter for 2560x1600 15-16 inch laptops. iOS doesn't do fractionally scaling, only 2x, and Macs are all designed to run at 200%, though you can set it to 175% or 150%. MacOS looks equally terrible at 125% or 100% (this is due to the lack of subpixel rendering, but I digress)

iOS doesn't do fractionally scaling, only 2x,

Oh, it does. The framebuffer is integer scaled, but the physical display has different (lower) resolution. As I wrote above, this mismatch is handled by the output encoder.

Macs are all designed to run at 200%, though you can set it to 175% or 150%.

Macs since around 2016 ship with ~175% default.

Again, the framebuffer is integer scaled (make a screenshot and see for yourself), and then fit to the display with lower resolution.

They do not support 150% or 175% though; these numbers are never shown in UI, just some description like "more space". This is not just Apple-esque hiding of everything that might sound technical; they really do not support 150% or 175%. In reality, it is more like 177,78% or 152,38%; they get something out of it, but that is a different topic.

It is exactly the same approach that Gnome / Mutter uses for fractional scaling. Except that Mutter did the mistake with exact scales.

Oh, iPhones do fractional scaling now, and have for years. The display has gotten much more pixel dense. It is not reported to the developer or the user what the real resolution is.

Linux support will definitely get better within the next year, but yeah this is my biggest pain point. Electron and other XWayland apps look terrible. Is there some environment variable that I can set to launch Electron apps with the correct command line arguments for Wayland?

Edit: Looks like I found what I am looking for: https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/api/environment-varia....

Electron apps are still blurry though. Hmm... Also, seems like I need to expose something to Electron apps that are packaged in Flatpak. Needs more research.

Many electron apps either ignore the ozone flags, or straight up ship with ancient electron, that doesn't support ozone/wayland at all.

The only way forward is bug the maintainers of the apps to do the right thing and support wayland properly. Electron itself does.

Slack seems to work great with Wayland, so props to them. VSCode and Discord were giving me trouble however. Thanks for your insight.

Use a better DE. KDE allows not scaling xwayland apps, and Hyprland does too. Just set Xft.dpi to let it scale the old fashioned way. Electron can be started with wayland but it's often buggy.

GNOME meets all my needs except this one, so I think I will stay here. Definitely looking for a less drastic solution.

Any chance we can get Japanese keyboard? You asked for feedback on it a while ago:

https://community.frame.work/t/request-review-of-korean-belg...

(am not even Japanese, just have bad habit of using thumb clusters a lot, and this is the only layout with small space bar)

(am not even Japanese, just have bad habit of using thumb clusters a lot, and this is the only layout with small space bar)

Same, the 106/109 keys JP layout is wonderful!

I use the Ro key as a quick desktop toggle (right next to PageUp on my Thinkpad keyboard) and the Yen key as a full-word erase (like Ctrl-W on bash)

The extra left and right thumbs are also extrely helpful to have Home and End in an easy-to reach position.

these are interesting hacks, glad you let people know about this possibility.

It is a very nice keyboard layout. I'm very happy I discovered it (even if it was by mistake!)

Another example I can think about: remap the Ro key to toggle between international layout while it's pressed, so you can switch between layouts with a key right next to the shift key.

For example, on a US/RU settting, press Ro while pressing the 6 keys to the right of Tab in a sequence and you would get ЙЦУКЕН, don't press Ro and do the same: you would get QWERTY. Mixing and matching in both upper and lowercase would be very easy.

Could you make the key under the C act as a Cmd/Ctrl key like a Mac?

The keyboards we requested artwork feedback on are all ones that we're working with our keyboard supplier on, but we don't have specific availability timelines that we can share. We certainly make sure to have the main keyboards for a country available before we launch there, but we've also in many instances launched a keyboard language far ahead of time.

Why do they continue to put a Windows icon on the super key? That alone would prevent me from buying it ;p

We actually do have an "English International - Linux" keyboard option that has a Super key instead.

Is that option available for the 13? I've been looking and having trouble finding it.

Not currently, but we are looking at the attach rate on Framework Laptop 16 to inform future Framework Laptop 13 keyboards.

We do offer a proper Linux keyboard available in the marketplace.

Image: https://static.frame.work/6jh6n0jcad25finrrmx9kmv48eex

This keyboard config uses the super key.

Of all things this the most superficial thing I'd care about.

I want sturdiness, correct performance, good repairability, great linux support. Tout le reste n'est que littérature.

EDIT: Oh I missed the smiley at the end. So I think you were not too serious about this being a dealbreaker

Can you convert an existing Framework laptop into a Framework 16 in an economical way? Based on the marketplace, it looks like it would be at least $750 for just the mainboard.

The Expansion Cards are cross-compatible (as are memory [if you have DDR5] and storage), but the other modules are unique to Framework Laptop 13 vs Framework Laptop 16. We did that to be able to fully optimize for each form factor.

How many form factors are you planning on having?

We can't share anything about future product plans, but in general, as few as possible. We want to avoid splitting out into too many different ecosystems of parts, and instead maximize the size of the install base within a cross-compatible ecosystem.

It's notable that a lot of 'smaller' laptops are coming along with ~14" now, rather than the 13" standard. I appreciate that the FW13 is really FW13.5, but if the next work you focus on (having launched the 16) is a FW14 or FW14.5, that would be lovely - especially if you took the opportunity to shave a few hundred grams off it as well!

I'm very against this trend. It's a bit like how compact cars have been slowly ruined by getting bigger and bigger.

13" is a great size for a truly portable use case.

Do the AMD based Framework laptops support proper suspend to ram?

No. It supports s0 sleep, not s3. It's my biggest problem with mine. I lose about 1% per hour.

Anyone know why it doesn't support s3 sleep?

Officially, the 13" AMD does: https://old.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/19bf3ki/linux_su...

Are you considering some quiet NUC-type machines? I have a very nice Starlabs Byte v1, but even more competition for the Mac Mini would be great.

We can't share anything about future product plans, but you can re-purpose a Framework Laptop 13 Mainboard to be a small form factor computer: https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/cases/mainboard-case/fr...

This case is available from Framework directly for $39: https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case-and...

Q: the pictures of this case on the CoolerMaster site looks like there's a USB-C trigger to a Coaxial power connector, then another connector to the mainboard itself. Would this case work with a 20v coaxial power supply?

Q: What voltage/wattage does the Framework SFF computer need to power up?

A lot of the USB-PD power supplies only give watts, not the voltage provided. Your 60w power supply is probably either 12v/5A or 20v/3A, but the page itself doesn't say: https://frame.work/products/power-adapter

I have some 15w USB-C 5v/3A power supplies (that won't charge my Sony camera), a USB-PD battery that supposedly puts out 12v on the one USB-C port, and an Apple 30w USB-C ac adapter. My 2016 macbook charges on 5v, which is convenient. Framework forum posts indicate the laptops will charge on 5v 12v and 20v, but there was a problem with 15v.

Yes. That mainboard repurpose is awesome! A dedicated mini can probably have better/quieter cooling. Fingers crossed.

Are there plans for USB4/thunderbolt on amd ryzen laptops?

USB4 support is present on the rear left and right Expansion Card slots on our Ryzen-powered Framework Laptop 13 and Framework Laptop 16.

Ah perfect, the descriptipn of the usb-c expansion module confused me a little bit.

Reviews seem to suggest that AMD has proper eGPU support too on those ports, fwiw

Are you planning to add blank keycaps or colemak/dvorak keycaps?

We currently have a blank keyboard module available in both ANSI and ISO! For other keyboard layouts like Dvorak, it is technically possible, but we don't have a timeline for it.

Out of curiosity, do you really want colemak or dvorak keycaps? As a colemak user myself I found it useful to keep the qwerty keycaps in case I am dropped into an environment when the keyboard layout isn't behaving properly, since I no longer remember them perfectly. In all likelihood when using colemak/dvorak normally you aren't looking at the keycaps anyways.

I have a framework 13" and I replaced the keyboard with a black blanked keyboard. It was really easy to install, it took me ~15 minutes. I really like the look of it, and when I use it in public people think I'm a wizard.

Will there be a way to sell old parts back to Framework as we start upgrading computers?

I'm not a part of Framework, but I imagine they're less interested in becoming their own secondary market.

We don't plan to have a take-back program, but we have shared in the past that we plan to launch a consumer to consumer resale path in our Marketplace.

Any plans of doing OLED displays? It's the only reason why I got my XPS13; but if given the choice, I'd have jumped immediately to the F13 OLED.

Is OLED really that interesting? I've watched OLED tv's and in rooms with any sunlight the dark parts become unusable. I've also seen reviews for OLED computer monitors, where people are annoyed that the screen will auto-dim at inopportune times.

Is OLED really that interesting

I'd say "good" rather than "interesting" and yes, it is, particularly for anyone who likes dark mode.

Hi there,

Do you think that you will move from batches to continuous production the next few years (I understand this is difficult logistics)? If Frameworks were available with 3 day shipping, then I would be able to recommend them to people more successfully.

Also out of interest, do you mind sharing your stance (and estimates for current and future demand) for touchscreens? Presumably you're estimating low demand for this at moment since it's not a priority. Would be great to see stats on this (since at the moment it's mostly just informal discussion / passing comments in the community/forums)

Thanks in advance. Appreciate everything you've all done.

We're in stock on both Intel and AMD Framework Laptop 13 configurations, and they ship from inventory within a week. We start out each new product under a pre-order system, but then move into normal production and ordering once we fulfill all pre-orders.

OK great, thanks

And appreciate that any expectations for <1week delivery would ignore your JIT/ondemand style assembly

What are the noise levels vs load?

The fan at full load (i5-1240P) is noticeable, but not obtrusive or unpleasant. My noise floor is a Be Quiet! desktop case.

In a normal workday, I don't hear it.

What are your thoughts on the large amount of keyboard flex in the 16" model as reported by LTT and specifically do you have any official recommendations for fixing it maybe something a little more robust than sticking a few thermal pads under the deck?

We saw the feedback and our mechanical team is digging into it.

Any plans for a keyboard with a trackpoint-like device?

Is it possible to remove the trackpad?

In terms of can you remove the input kit (touchpad) itself, similar to what we see with the Framework Laptop 13, yes, it is removable. As is the keyboard.

any plans for upgrades not just for the webcam and mic but also the speakers (though side instead of down maybe problematic)? since they did not get much praise from LTT

Webcams and mics will always be shitty on a laptop.

But speakers should be an area of focus.

Hello! I’m in FW16 batch 4 and excited to support your product and company. Thanks for driving innovation in this space!

I’m holding out for an NVIDIA GPU, or at least some hardware to accelerate running local AI models. Do you have any expansion bay plans for that?

Yeah, me too, waiting for an NVIDIA GPU for Blender (AMD and Intel GPUs perform really badly with Blender)

I have a Framework 16 pre-ordered for batch 11 -- is there a rough estimate of when it might ship? Promising I won't send you a nastygram either if that estimate doesn't hold :)

I didn't keep track of Framework 13s at all so I'm not sure what their shipping cadence was for pre-orders (just for comparison's sake)

For Batch 11 (and all of the later current batches), we expect to fulfill them before the end of Q2.

Hello Nirav,

When can we expect Framework to start accepting orders from India?

I'm wondering the same thing. I don't imagine India to be a very big market though.

How's out-of-the-box support for multi-monitor setups with Ubuntu? How about supporting higher refresh rate external monitors?

How does the trackpad feel compared to what people are used to with Apple devices on MacOS, is it at all comparable? I remember that being my least favorite part of using Linux laptops like what System 76 would put out.

How's the device build? Plasticky? Flexing? Once again, I dreaded that about the System76 machines, which IIRC are just rebranded Clevos/Compals.

How's the device build? Plasticky? Flexing?

From the LTT review (note that Linus has personally invested in the company, but says he did not review the team's script) at timestamp[0]:

The keyboard on the Framework 16 is unacceptable at this price [...] wasn't able to get up to my full typing speed in particular while doing really quick double presses due to the chassis flex, a huge disappointment compared to the keyboard on the Framework 13

The problem is the midplate [..] with the keyboard off, you can just see how not supportive this super thin piece of metal is. Fortunately, this being a framework, disassembling only takes about a minute and we were able to chuck some thermal pads in the areas where it was squishiest, and.. holy crap, that is so much better.

The amount that the chassis flex influences the feel of the keyboard is huge and the difference that this mod has made is night and day. With the thermal pads in there, this keyboard isn't quite on the same level of Asus or Alienware but comfortably beats MSI and Razor and bring it much more in-line with the price.

0: https://youtu.be/eUCm4wKarpQ?t=204

Will there eventually be a 15" model in your product roadmap?

15" sits nicely between your 13" and 16" models, and provides a good balance between screen real estate, number of ports and portability.

Personally I find a 13" to be slightly on the smaller side, whilst the 16" is too large for me.

I am quite sure many people are looking forward to a FW 15" with AMD Ryzen.

Thank you for considering this.

You had made a statement of not having the 8000 series AMD chips as it's not really a new "version", however for Intel is there any comment for Meteor Lake or is that a "we can't discuss future plans"? ;)

(I'm curious to know but I think I'll be getting the AMD 13 anyway, upgrading from a dualcore skylake laptop should still be nice :)

What would it take to let people make custom keyboards layouts for the laptop? (Given some fixed surface area on the board)

Are you collaborating with others or assisting others in similar projects in other fields? I've been thinking how rapidly india is industrializing and the middle class is getting rich and considering the difference in my electricity bills in winters and summers ($7, 55 kwh vs $80, 640kwh ), I was hoping there were air conditioners which were more open and user accessible. The goal here might not be preventing wastage of ACs but of having only one AC that could power multiple rooms non concurrently thus minimizing energy waste.

Shipping to Japan anytime soon?

When is a 4k version available?

No questions. But I just want to say congrats on getting another SKU out. I'm a very happy customer of an AMD FW13. The product has been pretty excellent and I absolutely love owning a notebook that I feel like I really "own".

Does hibernation work on Linux?

No questions. Just want to say that I am happy owner of a FW 13 and that my current tech-related dream now is to see the announcement of the framework smartphone. I bought the Fairphone 3 hoping they would keep an easy-to-upgrade form factor, but they completely failed on that front. I think you guys have what it takes to deliver.

why is a flimsy piece of sheet metal behind the keyboard, and the resulting keyboard deck flex, even close to acceptable on a machine that competes in the MBP16 price range?

Any plans to ship to India?

You really need to deal with the coreboot / firmware issue.

Been patiently waiting here in Sweden to be able to order one.

You got an AMD option now, this is the last hurdle.

(An ergonomic and programmable keyboard ia a dream. Maybe I could mod it myself.)

Any plans by you, or others, to make an extra rugged case (and hinge) for the laptop?

Any plans for UHD display and a good keyboard?

Can you send someone to my house to hit my current laptop with a baseball bat so I can justify an upgrade?

Any plans to offer a touch screen?

Is there any chance that the upgraded screen in this will be made available for the 13" laptop?

Is an intel version of the 16 in the pipeline?

how long will it run on battery? my FW13 12th gen (debian) lasts maybe 2 hours and even in suspend mode it drains way to fast (/sys/power/mem_sleep = deep)

You are not alone with both issues. Framework12, i5, NixOS. My milleage is 2.5~3h, but usage is light (vim mainly, often not even a browser).

I spent quite some time trying different things to optimize it, but never got more than realistic 3 hours.

Happy with other aspects though.

My M2 air will outlast the workday. Obscene battery life. I can’t imagine using a Linux notebook after this level of performance.

As long as you don't use Docker. My last job gave me an M1 Air for container debugging and devops, and it was a comically bad fit for the task. I ended up going back to my cheap x86 Linux host for most of the dirty work, just because it ran cooler.

Now, if someone could find me a native Docker host that lasts all day... then we're in business.

I run all the heavy stuff on a remote dev node. My laptop is just vscode+ssh, tmux in iTerm, a browser, Spotify and slack.

The wave of the future! Half the people in my team did that, I didn't feel right about the EC2 costs. To each their own, I guess.

I mainly dev on my home machine, a 13900k linux desktop. When not at home I utilize tailscale to get remote access. Was just in Vegas for a week and it worked great. I plugged my laptop in once to charge.

Or just get the Framework Chromebook and get the best of both worlds.

I have the chromebook, it's great. So easy to do linux stuff. I do wish the cpu scheduler or something related to chromeos could be improved for heavy cpu use. If I run firefox in the linux env, and I open a bunch of tabs, the fan spins up a good amount. It would be soooo much better if there was a way to tell chromeos to use a max amount of resources temporarily, like opening a web browser with lots of tabs. That's my only real complaint, when I overload the system with work.

I have a Framework 13 12th gen i5 as well, running NixOS, but I definitely get a lot more than 3 hours! I'm usually running some terminals and Firefox.

I definitely had to play with powertop a bit and remove some programs that consumed a lot of battery (for example, the blueman tray applet had to go). I'd recommend setting powerManagement.enable = true and powerManagement.powertop.enable = true, and letting powertop run in the background while on battery for a few hours to identify the worst offenders.

This is my configuration: https://kirarin.hootr.club/git/steinuil/flakes/src/branch/ma...

Your flake is very helpful, thanks! I cargo-culted tlp configuration, will see how it goes.

and letting powertop run in the background while on battery for a few hours to identify the worst offenders.

How do you do the analysis after running powertop in the background?

From an 11th gen I get about 6 to 7 with light usage, two to three with any development. It's largely a thin client at this point. Battery health is at 92%.

I tried upgrading to the ryzen and when it was good it was really good. I was able to keep a user mode libvirt vm running for dev work and mid brightness under 5W power draw. That used slirp networking, adding a bridge or default nat nic takes up about 2w to 3w of it's own power.

But like most windows laptops the suspend mucked things up. Not even power draw while asleep, but when awaking from sleep the power minimum was 10w with it more often at 20w with similar usage. I tried several wifi cards, nvme drives, port configurations etc. Also tried Fedora, Ubuntu and Nixos.

On Linux this carries over to the discussion of tlp vs power profile daemon, and soon tund. I saw much better performance and regularity with tlp, but that seems like it's not the path forward.

The steam deck shows that suspend can be fixed and done well with decent battery life under linux.

I would really like to switch from my M1 MacBook to a Framework Laptop, but the battery life difference being almost an order of magnitude makes it a complete non-starter. I like Framework, but this needs to be at the absolute top of their priority list to the exclusion of almost everything else.

Framework's hands are tied; the battery life with Apple's CPUs simply can't be touched by the biggest players like Intel and AMD.

Touched maybe not, but it's almost 20 hours worse. Surely it doesn't have to be THAT bad?

Apple's 22 hr rating for the 16" MBP is a maximum for a niche task, it's only (up to) 15 hrs of "wireless web", which is a more typical usage and would only be about 12 hrs worse.

All that configurability of the Framework takes up space, so its battery is 15% less (85 W/h compare to 100 W/h for the MBP).

The MBP has a CPU and instruction set that was optimized for low power from the beginning, compared to x86 which has 40 years of ad-hoc cruft and assumed wall power in the beginning, so it may not even be possible to implement the whole instruction set in low-power. (Intel tried, and did not succeed. Could be BigCO ineffeciencies, but could also be that it just isn't realistic.) But Intel/AMD can't switch architectures like Apple can, because they don't control the software. There's no guarantee that the buyer of a hypothetical improved instruction set Intel CPU has access to a Rosetta program (even if Intel had the imagination to do that). On top of that, Apple has been optimizing that CPU for 15 years, and is has access to the leading node.

Additionally, (presumably because of the lack of legacy cruft) Apple has space on their die for huge caches and the GPU. On-die GPU eliminates power consumption due to an additional discrete component. Large caches also help things go faster, which means the CPU can drop down to low-power mode quicker.

Since Apple owns the CPU, it can customize the CPU for its needs, and it has relentless optimized for low power consumption, even to the extent of putting in a few new instructions for the OS.

Apple owns the OS, so it can have all kinds of power-saving features that a mass-market OS like Windows cannot feasibly implement. It is not in Microsoft's interest to take advantage of every little power savings a motherboard manufacturer might add: extra complexity (= bugs and maintenance costs) with no extra revenue potential. Linux has a similar problem, and additionally there are enough problems needing attention that I expect power optimizations beyond the big ones just do not have the interest / resources. For instance, if a 5% improvement would require a large kernel / driver refactor, I suspect it's a hard sell. Plus, macOS doesn't need to support anywhere near the number of configurations that Linux does, so it probably is less effort to do. So all those 5% increases that Apple can do add up.

Then there is the aspect that Apple can tune its OS for power saving. Update Cocoa to save energy and everyone's app uses less power. I expect GTK and Qt have other more pressing problems. On top of that, I expect Wayland and especially Xorg are not designed with minimal power consumption in mind. Etc, all the way down.

That said, 2.5 hrs does seem like it could definitely be improved.

I would love to see a Snapdragon Elite X in a Framework.

It's also a Linux issue that was ignored for years by users and done developers who instead pushed where possible reenabling clunkier older operating modes.

My understanding is that one of the reasons Linux on M-series macs doesn't have the problem is that Asahi team doesn't take similarly crappy attitude.

Also, the issue appears to show up on other 7040 Ryzen laptops, so I hope this finally gets us proper "modern sleep" support instead of instructions to disable it in firmware setup.

the issue appears to show up on other 7040 Ryzen laptops, so I hope this finally gets us proper "modern sleep" support instead of instructions to disable it in firmware setup.

My ThinkPad has modern sleep support for the 7840U; sleep and wake are nearly instant with very little battery use while sleeping.

I'm getting at least 8 hours out of my AMD framework.

I get 3-3.5 under Fedora and the 'Power Saver' gnome power profile, but yeah it's not great.

Make sure you are on the latest PPD - this matters and provides a noticeable improvement. https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/mariolimonciello/pow... and you are on at least kernel 6.6.12.

The defaults should work. What’s the point in buying a Linux-branded laptop if they can’t get the basics right?

It's not Linux-branded to be fair (they label it as a "DIY" device that ships with no OS), but yeah.. I'm not really one to deviate too far from the defaults on a device I use for work.

I'm running with this setup and getting at least 5h, I haven't measured it recently but it's definitely makes a difference!

Phoronix has some power consumption information in their review: https://www.phoronix.com/review/framework-laptop-16/8

For Framework Laptop 13 12th Gen, we have an article on optimizing power consumption (this one is written for Ubuntu, but should largely apply to Debian): https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/optimizing-ubuntu-bat...

Haha and they say Linux is hard to use! What could be simpler?

You are not kidding haha, I saw the article and immediately thought the same. I use a Dell Latitude as my work computer and run it with Linux (Mint). It is a constant struggle between battery life, sleep states (lack of), camera not working, bluetooth not working and whatnot. I still prefer working on Linux than suffering the UX trash that is Windows, but god if there was some paid Linux version that prevented all the necessary tinkering :(

Or just get the Framework Chromebook which works great out of the box.

Yea I got a FW a few years ago and regret it. For just a few hundred $$$ more I could've gotten an M1.

The battery situation makes me never use it. Compare to a macbook when I can just close it and open it up weeks later and it just turns on with plenty of charge still left.

Every time I need to use the FW i need to plug it in first or charge it if I want to take it somewhere. Defeats the point of a portable computing device

When I travel with it, i need to make sure I shut it down and not just close the lid, or it discharges and cooks my backpack

Everything else is fine though

Protip: Make sure hibernation works then enable suspend-then-hibernate in logind.conf

Making hibernation work on Linux is the pain. Is it even possible on the Framework?

I got the FW when I was between jobs so I had a bunch of time to tinker with it and mess around with Linux configs. Now I have a baby and a job so unfortunately my desire to tinker with config is pretty much 0 at this point

My FW13 AMD laptop (61Wh battery) can last 11hr+, technically. If I'm doing anything other than light web browsing, that quickly drops to 8hr. If I'm watching videos, it's more like 5hr.

Unfortunately, at least on Linux, it requires quite a bit of tuning for the moment. But there are some pretty good guides.

Suspend battery life still isn't great, but it's _much_ better (with s2idle supported) on the latest-gen AMD platform.

I previously had the 11th gen Intel and... I got much better battery life than you, but it was still pretty bad.

This is really interesting to me. I too have an 11th gen Intel machine running Arch, and while I get better battery life than 2 hours, it's still the weakest part of the system, and I very rarely put it to sleep, I just turn the whole machine off. Someday I was planning on upgrading to the AMD motherboard, but didn't really see a reason to do so yet, but this might accelerate my plans.

Yeah, sleep on the 11th gen is basically worthless. But the battery upgrade (especially after a few years of wear and tear) and the new AMD board are worth it.

... unless you watch a lot of video. Hardware video decoding uses more power than software video decoding in many cases: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/issues/10223

OOf thats a tough sell, two hours is pretty pathetic. I can't imagine how any laptop maker can be selling a laptop in 2024 with anything shorter than 8 hours and keep a straight face.

This surely has to be a software issue, I can't imagine they'd have been silly enough to fit such a tiny battery!

Yup, comparing to a similarly priced MacBook that goes for ~20 hours it's ridiculously bad.

Pretty much every other index and amd laptop suffers with poor battery life. I get about 4-5 hours on the chromeos variant of this laptop.

Two hours??

I get 6 with Ubuntu on my 1240P Framework, and that's with the BIOS limiting the battery to 80%.

With 12th Gen, 6-7 hours looks like around what we'd expect for normal, real life usage on Linux. With 13th Gen or Ryzen 7040 Series, we've seen even better, e.g. (though on Windows for this reviewer): https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/05/review-framework-lap...

Another data point: my FW13 12th gen, also on Debian, reaches 6 hours. I didn't tune anything other than cap the CPU to 2GHz in order to avoid fan noise.

.. same here FW13 12gen .. fast battery drain even in sleep mode. It is reported due to the expansion cards that I guess cannot be turned off ?

This AMD config uses s2idle and the battery life very much depends on the usage itself. Ideally, running UMA is going to yield a longer life than say, running from dGPU. For gaming, we have folks using dGPU only as needed. Provides choice.

I wish they deliver good keyboard as well, like Thinkpads X201 or similar have. I am happy owner of modded X201 with updated screen, motherboard, and so on. It's not on a cheap side, but I'm happy to pay that price _only_ for the keyboard option. It's so cool. Folks back then knew what was important.

I have not used a Windows laptop outside of Razer and maybe Surface in many years.

How do those Thinkpad keyboards compare to new Macbook Pro keyboards?

I've always found the Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine," but I'm curious if I am actually missing out on a better experience.

I've always found the Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine," [...]

Have you tried the previous, "butterfly" generation? It should've been criminal to ship that.

Personally, I think the butterfly keyboard is great. Assuming, of course, that you got one that does not suffer mechanical reliability issues. This opinion is hardly universal but seems to be shared by quite a few good typists. I'm typing this on a fancy mechanical keyboard, because I care quite a bit about keyboard quality (and consequently hate most laptop keyboards). So it's not that I just don't know better.

I have and I think it's fine. The newer ones are better, but I never understood the enormous dislike for it. IMO the pre-butterfly keyboard is still better than even the current iteration.

I've always found the Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine,"

I haven't bought a (non-phone) computer made by Apple since, and due to, the MBP 2017 keyboard fiasco. It was the single most shitty and unusable keyboard I have had a displeasure working on, and I've owned some super cheap entry laptops in the past.

To say that it was crap, trash, garbage, joke, spit in consumer's face feels like a laughably low effort on expressing how useless it was. I bought this laptop as a pre-order before general availability and reported issues to Apple before all the media shitstorm began. Support reps have expressed their concerns and assured me over the phone that it has to be an isolated problem with an individual unit. I've sent the laptop for servicing within a 2 weeks since purchase. They replaced the keyboard and, for some reason, also the mainboard and screen and sent it back. Exact same issues but before I got the mostly-replaced device, issues with the butterfly keyboard already caught media attention and it was a hot topic.

I was traveling with a laptop and a mechanical Keychron keyboard, ffs. I used external keyboard during flights, at Starbucks and in other public places. Any attempt to use built-in butterfly joke of a keyboard was so frustrating that carrying an external keyboard was a reasonable trade-off.

Apple later parted ways with $50 million to settle the class-action. US-based buyers got up to $395 (I got nothing in EU) but still ended up with non-resellable devices. Jony Ive probably got a great bonus for this stunt.

I'm happy for you that you have experienced only "fine" keyboards on MBPs. Would I have enemies, I wouldn't wish the misfortune of having to use MBP 2017 on any of them.

Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine," but I'm curious if I am actually missing out on a better experience

Yes, you are missing a better experience. You might try out Bluetooth X201-like keyboards built by enthusiasts from China, if you can buy them. I tried to contact with no luck though.

But it can be a good DYI project, if you have one for sale, let me know.

Here is the link https://www.taobao.com/list/item/615448425938.htm

They 3D-print the body, and use keyboards from Thinkpad laptops.

I personally never experienced a keyboard as comfortable as my fw13. I am coming from XPS ones and never tried ThinkPads, thought.

The LTT video says that the 16-inch Framework has a much worse keyboard than the 13-inch one.

Do you know what is the travel on the 13 and 16 Framework keyboards?

1.5mm key travel.

The physical key mechanism is the same as on the Framework Laptop 13 (the same tooling too). The LTT video noted that they found flex in the mid plate that the keyboard rests on, which we are investigating.

I hope with the new modular keyboard tray we will get some decent option. I would only buy it if there was one with a track point tbh, third party or otherwise.

I dream of having a laptop with a standard tenkeyless layout. If I end up buying a Framework at some point I might build my own TKL keyboard, or pay handsomely to have one custom-built, such is my burning desire to keep my existing muscle-memory.

Yeah I’m not a fan of the numpad on laptops. If im doing serious data entry I’ll get out a numpad (Keychron C1) or a full keyboard. And it actively reduces the space for the rest of the KB layout, speakers, etc.

But as you say, the cool part about framework is that everyone can customize it to their own tastes.

I’ve been hopeful for more keyboard options on Frameworks too. Ideally I’d like HHKB layout with trackpoint and accompanying trackpad module with three buttons at the top, but would be happy with only HHKB layout or only trackpoint.

Certainly the colorful led backlight must have been the highest priority.

It is unlikely, but I really hope they get an ortholinear keyboard option at some point. There is this thread[1] which has gotten my hopes up.

[1] https://community.frame.work/t/ortholinear-keyboard-option/3...

Hopefully not just a simple square grid, but something designed for ergonomics. You don't need to invent a new layout, there's plenty of pretty good designs you can copy, like Corne or Atreus. But at this point I'd take anything - even a narrower space bar (so that you can use your thumbs for modifiers without contorting them) would be a huge improvement.

Even just looking at staggered keyboards hurts my hands.

There's a surprisingly large cohort that believes a matrix layout is ergonomic—as in, "I have an ergonomic keyboard". From my personal use, it's a wash at best—some keys are easier to reach, and others are harder. The worst part is the layout promotes ulnar deviation even more than does a standard keyboard, and ulnar deviation is a major contributor to RSI. (A split matrix-style keyboard would negate the ulnar deviation concerns.)

The Atreus layout, while not a personal favorite (way too much chording, which I found unpleasant and uncomfortable), would seem to be pretty ideal on a laptop, though it does take up a good chunk of space.

From my personal use, it's a wash at best—some keys are easier to reach, and others are harder

I agree.

the layout promotes ulnar deviation even more than does a standard keyboard

Hard disagree. You may choose to hold your wrists in such a manner that this is true, but that's on you.

I'm a touch typist, and I switched to ortho partly because it makes a lot more sense for touch typing. Touch typing is taught in columns, and when those columns are slanted like this \ there really is no justification. So ortho lets me scratch that itch to fix the keyboard.

There will probably never make one. I'd be surprised if even % of laptop users even know what an ortholinear layout is. You have a better chance of an aftermarket one.

Does a current-gen laptop featuring an X201-like keyboard exist? Has such a thing even existed in the last five years?

Lenovo continues to reduce key travel in favor of the more popular thin and light crowd.

case in point : my 2020 Lenovo Ideapad keyboard looks like this:

https://demo.intellique.org/nextcloud/index.php/s/6jJ3r4brrj...

Yes, through enthusiasts from China. They make their own motherboards and install modern components. There is no warranty though, and you need to wire them funds, there is also no returns. It worked for me though. I have 64GB ram, 2 SSDs 1TB each. It's mostly silent after I configured things in BIOS. The battery life still sucks.

Apart from the 51nb stuff from China (https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/ and the like), the ThinkPad 25 is the closest official thing, but it's over 6 years old now (released in October 2017, but mine's still going strong and I haven't even replaced the batteries yet).

...modded X201 with updated ... motherboard...

How far are you getting with these updates? I agree the keyboards of old are legendary, but at some point your productivity is negatively affected by legacy CPUs and related.

It really depends on how you develop.

For some people laptops never have enough power and are essentially a thin client to something else.

How far are you getting with these updates?

I can run Slack native app and the fan doesn't kick in!

Kidding, but I have Slack running, and containers, and IDEs. Everything. My CPU is pretty decent, 64GB RAM, 2 SSDs, 1TB each. This is modded X201 from enthusiasts from China. These laptops are somewhat niche, but you can buy them.

You will run all the software you need, and even more. The only downside is battery life, I hope we'll have new types of batteries some time soon, so it won't bother me too much.

The X201 mods are pretty comprehensive, the 51NB team and others like XY Tech have commissioned entire replacement motherboards that carry i7-8550u or i7-10710u processors. See [1].

And the old 35W processors in some of these laptops will still deliver solid performance. The new ones will turbo higher, but throttle quicker. You get higher default clock speed and better thermals with the older processors. Of course memory bandwidth and peripheral connectivity are better with newer processors, but they're perfectly usable. If what you want to do to be productive is edit text and maybe render HTML and browse files, and your OS/IDE/browser does not place unnecessary demands on your computer, then an X201, especially modded, cannot be the blame for your lack of productivity.

https://www.xyte.ch/

It would never happen, but I'd like to have a no-keyboard option. I never use my laptop keyboard because I have an HHKB, rendering it unnecessary. Instead of a keyboard, I'd like a flat surface where I can rest my HHKB and maybe an L-shaped connector to plug in the USB-C.

Sounds like you want Framework to release a mini pc

I wish that portable form factor like the dolch pc would come back.

monitor part of the case with a fold out detachable keyboard.

this is a terrible example of what I mean:

http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/userdata/images/large/PRO...

but imagine something like that with a more modern take.

EDIT: ok here it is:

http://portexa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/FlexPAC-III-23...

look up "flexpac iii"

I never used a laptop keyboard that I liked (I currently have a thinkpad)... probably because I'm used to these old style IBM keyboards with numeric keypad

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71UJ8OXnZjL._AC_SL1500_....

they used to be so much better. I typed on a friend's ancient powerbook and the keyboard made a lasting impression on me. I found the sculpted keys to be smooth and comfortable. This was when flat keys were first coming out.

I think this one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Wallstre...

to me, it would make a lot more sense to replace the lines of numbers on top of the keyboard with the numeric keypad (instead of getting rid of it)... it is so much easier to type numbers with it....

How long does your battery last?

Yeah... I'd want a full height mechanical keyboard myself.

The current offering is missing International English ISO - Linux variant for me.

I would love something like that. Something with curved keys that fit the contour of your finger instead of the "everybody-copy-apple" flat key nonsense.

Curved keys are more comfortable, putting even pressure on your finger instead of high pressure in one place.

They also give tactile feedback to help center your finger on each key, making typing more accurate and faster.

Looks like the keyboard was decent once you put some thermal pads under the keyboard to stiffen it up lol. I like the fact that you can easily mod things yourself though.

I'll chime in and say that I love my FW13. It's a great machine. I got the DIY kit and had my 7yo put it together. It was straightforward with a little help from dad (even installing Ubuntu!). Now we fight over who gets to use it.

I love my FW13 too. I just wish it had more options for components. I can of course pick my own SSD and RAM configuration but that's true of every Lenovo laptop.

I wish I could get a 4K screen, an eInk screen, a touchscreen, a Dvorak keyboard, a OLED keyboard, an IMU/GPS/barometer expansion module, a pico projector expansion module, a software-defined-radio expansion module, a larger aperture webcam module, an IR webcam module, a depth camera webcam module, an Arduino expansion module, an IR emitter expansion module that controls TVs, etc etc etc.

But nobody seems interested in making this stuff. I guess the community that uses Framework laptops isn't really capable of that level of hardware engineering (me included) and the companies in China doing hardware haven't caught onto making stuff for Framework.

I wish I could get a 4K screen, an eInk screen, a touchscreen, a Dvorak keyboard, a OLED keyboard, an IMU/GPS/barometer expansion module, a pico projector expansion module, a software-defined-radio expansion module, a larger aperture webcam module, an IR webcam module, a depth camera webcam module, an Arduino expansion module, an IR emitter expansion module that controls TVs, etc etc etc.

But nobody seems interested in making this stuff. I guess the community that uses Framework laptops isn't really capable of that level of hardware engineering (me included) and the companies in China doing hardware haven't caught onto making stuff for Framework.

I relate to your sentiment of wanting tons of modules, but I'm going to disagree on the skills of the community.

For some of these options (4k/eink screens for eg), you need such a panel to be available (panelook to search -> aliexpress/ebay to buy). SDRs, IMUs & sensors could be doable relatively "easily" if they interface via USB/PCIE.

There are lots of hardware tinkerers in youtube, hackaday and of course even here on HN. I'm a mechanical engineer with some electrical/electronics knowledge, and I could likely make a half-decent module if I had the time/money/reason/ethusiasm for it. There's a guy who's turned an iPad screen into the FW13 display (on the framework community). There are probably dozens of people who may read this comment who are far more skilled than I am.

If you are very keen to do this yourself, you might want to start with learning 3d modelling and building up from that (from a mechanical side). 3d printing metals with something like SLS is commercially (relatively) easy and (imo) accessible compared to say 10-20 years back.

I'm a mechanical engineer with some electrical/electronics knowledge, and I could likely make a half-decent module if I had the time/money/reason/ethusiasm for it.

I consider myself to be a decent software engineer. But I am inexperienced in the area of creating my own hardware. I guess a lot of things are just knowing how to stick together pre-made components like "panels, SDRs, IMUs & sensors"? But how important is it to know circuit design?

There are a lot of unknown unknowns. And it is not clear what a good learning path would be to get started with hardware hacking as a hobbyist.

I consider myself to be a decent software engineer. But I am inexperienced in the area of creating my own hardware. I guess a lot of things are just knowing how to stick together pre-made components like "panels, SDRs, IMUs & sensors"? But how important is it to know circuit design?

For most of the sensors mentioned in the initial comment, I would assume there are already commercial USB/eDP/PCIE sensors/components, and at least for framework these connectors on the motherboard are clearly exposed. I'd imagine it's possible to have some RJ-xxx sensor needing a RJ-USB converter too, but with the sensor+converter I think it is as easy as "design a box, throw them in".

HOWEVER - ESD is something I've heard can be pretty nasty and show up where you least expect it to. Proper grounding design would help. Beyond that, I am not aware of any "major" issues (there's also general environmental/power noise but ground could help with some of those issues like the "wonky touchscreen when charging". Also stuff like debouncing and pullup/down resistors if using buttons).

My personal knowledge of circuit design isn't very good, I studied it till high school and had an intro to EE class in uni (which actually wasn't bad, learnt the basics of opamp circuits etc) but I don't remember much of those now.

There are a lot of unknown unknowns. And it is not clear what a good learning path would be to get started with hardware hacking as a hobbyist.

I think if you want to get started, the most "comprehensive" way would be by looking at syllabus of undergraduate EE programs (or MechE for the physical side), and perhaps going through the relevant/interesting chapters.

However the "easiest" will be by just building basic circuits - using an arduino, or making a hand-wired mechanical keyboard. Googling issues like "arduino button changes on its own" will give results like https://arduino.stackexchange.com/questions/186/button-state... which talk about floating pins.

This is as much as I know on this topic (I have "tried learning more esp. in high speed designs but that's vast), if anyone else has helpful suggestions I'll be happy to learn :)

you need such a panel to be available

Aren't they available? Just take apart a used MacBook for a retina display, or take apart a Boox 13.3" tablet for the eInk display.

Or just buy this https://www.waveshare.com/13.3inch-e-paper-hat.htm

But good luck reverse engineering it. I wouldn't know where to start.

Aren't they available? Just take apart a used MacBook for a retina display, or take apart a Boox 13.3" tablet for the eInk display.

Yeah for sure, what I meant is that DIYing a fully custom screen with a custom resolution etc isn't very easy :)

If you're buying a panel or scavenging an existing panel it's much "easier". Of course that hasn't stopped youtubers from designing their own 7-segment LCD panels... (example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zoeeR3geTA or https://youtu.be/ZA5vlDdpbkw)

We've seen Microcontroller, SDR, and IR Expansion Cards from the community! We'd definitely love to see some of the even more complex ones though, and expect that as the community continues to mature and grow, some will make it through: https://community.frame.work/c/developer-program/85

Yes, I've seen those though unfortunately I'm not a hardware engineer and would have a hard time reproducing them. Even if I could figure out how to get a PCB made from a KiCAD file I wouldn't be able to do the surface-mount soldering without botching everything.

I'd love to be able to just pay for them and buy them and then get rolling with software :)

Even if I could figure out how to get a PCB made from a KiCAD file I wouldn't be able to do the surface-mount soldering without botching everything.

For what it's worth, some places like JLCPCB can source and solder SMT components to your designed boards as long as you pick from their available parts library.

Thanks! I'll take a look into this. I always thought PCBs required minimum order quantities in the tens to get assembled (mostly because I had a startup before in which we had an EE that took care of this)

I just got my AMD Framework 13, which I'm mostly happy with, but I'm in the same boat. It's great that's it's possible to attach these devices to the laptop, but the true nature of this seems to be that you have to make these things because there isn't a real market for them beyond what Framework is selling.

I did come up with something I would want enough that I'm willing to try to make it though. Taking inspiration from some other modules like it, I'm currently looking into adding this microcontroller with a transparent case:

https://github.com/01Space/ESP32-C3FH4-RGB

If I'm happy with it, I was going to try to have it show battery status like some other laptops have. This might be possible by wiring up another microcontroller to the SMBus on the battery. I'm still researching that part though.

I get that. There's tons of amazing possibilities and it's fun to imagine them and to hope they come out. I'm going to try to make something with my kiddo for the FW, but of course the focus will be on bonding and helping my kiddo build skills, understanding, and connection. So we might not quite get to putting the e-ink reader on the backside of the lid.

the companies in China doing hardware haven't caught onto making stuff for Framework.

Don't worry. They will catch on... making and copying not just components but the entire framework. It really depends on how popular it gets.

It's awesome to hear that. A big part of creating Framework was the urge to prevent a world where kids could no longer tinker with their parents' computers.

Any chance you’ll ship to Switzerland soon? Our only options are to ship it to Germany or France, go pick it up, pay import fees and taxes on top of the country’s 20% VAT, and then be denied warranty because delivering to a pick up address voids the warranty. It’s quite frustrating :/

Tagging onto this, I still am unable to buy it in NZ, after expressing interest 2 years ago.

Love it. I'm excited to upgrade the mainboard and to put the old board in a new shell or the cooler master case. We'll see what the kiddo wants to do.

Maybe she'll become a gamer and we'll get a 16.

Anyway, you've got my total support and $. I get that we're a niche market though. It would be great to see my non-techie friends sporting the Framework Gear -- I think they'd love the pre-built machine, but the messaging steers them to thinking it's only for DIY-ers. E.g. -- My sister would love the FW13 because she doesn't have special performance needs and cares about sustainability, but she got very intimidated buying an MBA, so guiding her through buying a Framework will be some work on my end (...messaging that would land for her would be that Framework solves all your basic problems (browsing, video-chatting, and netflix) and when you need more power you can upgrade for only the cost of the components).

That's wonderful to hear. I attribute my innate love of computers to my father making a mess of the kitchen table while working on the family PC.

How are the thermals and fan noise?

According to the reviews i've seen its about 20 degrees cooler than other laptops with the same spec, making it way more quiter.

The battery time is also several hours longer than compareable laptops of the same size.

And fan noise at idle / web browsing?

the fans turn on later than laptops of other brands do, so probably silent. but when they turn on they are a bit louder at first, but goes down rather quickly.

I have the DIY FW13 Intel 11th Gen with Fedora. I've had an overall positive experience and have enjoyed tinkering with it.

My only negative with it has been the issue specific to 11th gens where the CMOS drains and eventually dies if the laptop is left unplugged for days-to-weeks at a time.

On the whole Framework handled the issue well, there was no permanent fix without soldering or replacing the board. The company was upfront, provided support, a replacement battery, and even published a how-to on modifying the mainboard after the fact. With a start-up I was expecting some bugs. This one was irritating but not a deal breaker. I think how they handled the problem and how they've proven their commitment to upgradeability through the 12th, 13th, and Ryzen boards speaks well of the company.

While I am extremely keen on the AMD versions that have rolled out recently, I can't justify the purchase when my current FW13 still works well enough.

The FW16 probably isn't for me but I hope it's successful. I really want to see the docking station that can double as an eGPU using the FW16 discrete GPU module. There was a prototype mentioned in passing about a year ago but it's been radio silence since then. I hope the success of Framework laptops and the growing market for gaming handhelds like the Steam Deck makes the modular eGPU concept a little more reasonable. It's still incredibly niche but one can dream.

I have mixed feelings. I bought mine hoping Framework would improve the SW (especially firmware and drivers) over time but that hasn't been the case.

My 12th gen has issues with abysmal battery life while sleeping (not just the regular Intel 12th gen sleep complaints, but batt life varies greatly depending on which expansion cards you have on the laptop while sleeping eg USB-A vs -C). Framework has been beta testing a FW update to partially improve this since 2022 and last I checked the beta still had side effects like bricking the left USB-C ports under certain conditions.

Even though Fedora is (afaict?) the best supposed Linux distro, there's still known issues that have persisted for years like the brightness keys not working (there's technically a workaround but it breaks a different feature that I would like to use)

If the laptop as it is today meets your needs, go for it... but one shouldn't buy it assuming that known issues will be fixed later on.

Even though Fedora is (afaict?) the best supposed Linux distro

As someone who had a 12th-gen mainboard and upgraded to an AMD board, and assuming you meant "supported" here, the rest of the points here are fine but this one rather explicitly is off. Ubuntu is the primary supported distro across the board: https://frame.work/linux

Fedora was recommended for AMD mainboards when Framework started shipping them, because Fedora ships newer kernels sooner, which got upstream AMD compatibility fixes out faster, which meant Fedora users could install Framework's firmware, driver, and BIOS updates sooner with fewer workarounds.

When Ubuntu 22.04.3 LTS shipped a 6.2 kernel in August, it went back in front across mainboards.

There isn't really anything on that page says Ubuntu is the primary supported distro and Fedora isn't. They seem to both be equally supported with no preference according to both the listings and the wording on the page.

Typing this on 12th gen running Fedora, and I have none of the issues you describe. I've been daily driving this laptop for 2 years, and my only complaint is the mediocre battery life (I get 5-6 hours with mixed use and around 50% display brightness).

I did switch from the glossy to matte display, which was a massive improvement for use on the go.

If you don't mind sharing, what modules do you have plugged in and how much battery do you lose if you don't touch the laptop for 2-3 days?

My brightness keys started working recently, without any work arounds. Are you on an up to date fedora 39?

On the whole Framework handled the issue well, there was no permanent fix without soldering or replacing the board. The company was upfront, provided support, a replacement battery, and even published a how-to on modifying the mainboard after the fact.

IMHO, handling it well would mean recalling and replacing the defective mainboards (so long as they’re in warranty). They must have a ton of brand equity / good will if customers are that willing to roll up their sleeves.

IMHO, handling it well would mean recalling and replacing the defective mainboards (so long as they’re in warranty).

Just remember, this flaw was on the one model right at the start of the company. Recalling the boards at that point (where the company probably wasn't making a profit yet) could have killed the company. Definitely not worth doing.

But short of a total recall, they did the next best thing. They released detailed instructions on how to repair a laptop while having the schematics for the laptop be open, and going out of their way to design the laptop in such a way to make repair as easy as possible, and said that self repairs would not affect any warrantees.

No other laptop manufacturer would have done that.

That's why they are seen as good in the community's eyes.

> IMHO, handling it well would mean recalling and replacing the defective mainboards (so long as they’re in warranty).

No other laptop manufacturer would have done that. > That's why they are seen as good in the community's eyes.

Yep.

We're not aiming for _perfect_ here. Framework just has to be better than the abysmally low bar set by (almost) every other laptop maker.

Their help process included me taking several pictures and descriptions of wonky behavior for when graphics were glitching.

Which was fine at the time, but would have preferred to just RMA the unit so I would have a working unit (we purchased to test for business use).

If someone gave me the option between soldering it myself and having it repaired, I’d for for soldering too. I can do that right now, while getting it repaired means sending it back and forth.

I really want to see the docking station that can double as an eGPU using the FW16 discrete GPU module

Yes! As another owner of the FW13, if they released some kind of external adapter for the FW16 GPU I'd definitely purchase the GPU and the adapter the day its open for sale.

We showed a proof of concept of exactly this actually at our initial launch event for Framework Laptop 16 last year. It's still something we see as an interesting use case to support, but we don't have a timeline around productization of it.

Have you ever considered designing a steam deck / handheld form factor that could take old motherboards from FW laptops?

Unsure how viable that would be, but it would help justify that proof of concept (imho).

Would be really cool if the GPU could serve multiple devices across generations like that somehow, eventually. Buy one FW laptop, upgrade it, use the old parts for a new handheld, use the old GPU as a dock for that handheld when you get a new one for the laptop.

You mean like this? https://www.hackster.io/news/pitstoptech-s-framework-mainboa...

Well, I’ll be there when you get to it! I understand it’s a small company, and there must be a million priorities.

Your setup is identical to mine. We tested bringing them in for business use. On one, the graphics would randomly glitch. We replaced every part of the system except the screen and it would still glitch, so I replaced with Thinkpad. Just need a solid system.

After two years of sporadic use, our engineer with Fedora+Framework gave it up as it started burning him (2nd degree)!

Overall, I liked the experience and the mission, but was sad we've had the experience of glitch+burning.

It looks like the next-gen Zen 5 AMD cpus will be another large leap anyways, so not needing to upgrade now should make you even happier down the line! :)

The owner of DIY FW13 12 Gen here. The only problem I've faced was fingerprint scanner: it just fell off (I don't know why, I've not done anything crazy to the machine, worked almost stationary). I've just replaced the button with sticky plastic rectangle and that's it: button works, fingerprint - no. But this is a minor issue really: overall this is the best laptop I've had considering that I also can upgrade it more cheaply in the future, I suggest almost everyone to consider this brand when searching for new machine.

My AMD Framework 13 occasionally hangs and requires hard reset to come back to life. No errors are generated. As far as I can tell it instantly and unpredictably stops executing any instructions at all.

There hasn't been a driver or firmware update in three months.

The keyboard and trackpad are mediocre.

The fan vents are on the bottom of the computer where they're almost permanently blocked.

It's not a terrible computer, and it does have what was most important to me when I was buying (a matte 3:2 screen). But I can't recommend it to anybody.

On the bottom is the air in-take. The air is blown at the edge of the bottom between the hinges.

I have the fw13 12th gen and I don't think the keyboard and trackpad are mediocre at all.

I am running the Fedora Cinnamon spin. The issue for me is that only sometimes it takes a minutes to get out of sleep after I close the lid. Apart from that it works fine, and I would recommend it.

Deepest apologies; I meant to say grille. Regardless of the flow direction, I am constantly blocking the aperture with my legs or blanket.

The touchpad frequently misidentifies movement as taps, something that hasn't been a problem for me on the Macbook Pro, the X1 Carbon, or the Microsoft Surface. The keyboard keys aren't too bad, but could have a sharper inflection point in the force vs travel and also be little bit less wobbly. Neither of these are fatal flaws, but are enough, I think, to call them mediocre.

Do you also find that the computer forgets its DDR5 training pretty regularly and takes a long time to boot? For me I think it's ~1-in-10 boots.

I had a hang that sounds similar to yours the other day, and it appeared to retrain on the next boot. Does that line up with what you've seen?

It seems to retrain more often after a hang, but not every time.

I don't think it has ever been a good idea to rest a laptop on a blanket on even laps for more than a few minutes... Anyways, that's been a concern on all my previous laptops. I bought a second laptop platform-cushion for my legs/bedtime and it's much better no matter the laptop.

Same for touchpad issues, my big palms sides have always been the source of misidentified clicks. The way I solved it on linux was by making it narrower in software. It take a one line straightforward command to do so.

I really like the keyboard I must say. It's much better than my previous laptops (that were admittedly cheaper)

I don't have any boot issues on my model so I don't know about a boot problem sorry

Have you installed the firmware updates to the AMD board? I had similar issues but the latest set of firmware updates seems to have fixed them.

There haven't been any releases in the time that I've had the computer, and the board shipped with still-latest.

Are you running Windows or another OS?

Windows 11 and Fedora

I have that one and no crashes at all. If I had to guess you might have some bad RAM causing it. Try running a memtest like program to see if it finds anything.

Latest Fedora 39 kernel fixed a problem I had switching from graphics to a virtual terminal and back.

I've done that and have had zero errors after running as many loops as completed overnight (if memory serves, just under ten full loops of memtest86+). But I agree with the intuition; I was also suspicious of memory.

I agree, the input devices leave something to be desired. I dream of grafting a MBP keyboard and trackpad onto my FW13.

As far as I can tell, and I’m happy to be corrected, most of the Apple trackpad “magic” comes from the software drivers, not from unique hardware. So making a frankenwork laptop wouldn’t really help unless you spent effort fighting with closed source blobs in an environment they don’t want to be in.

Honestly, this article ended up being more of an endorsement for the Tuxedo Pulse 14 laptop than for Framework, at least to me.

The price difference between the two is noticeable (more than the 5% geometric mean result) and Tuxedo as a company officially supports Linux in their machines, as opposed to Framework which don't. Yes I know about Framework laptops working with Linux installed, and about Framework drivers existing in fwupd, but Tuxedo actually sell laptops with Linux pre-installed and Framework doesn't; yes that distinction actually matters, it means the company itself is willing to put their name on the line with Linux support.

Sorry @nrp, I did not want to be so negative about the Framework 16, but I do think you have tough competition from Tuxedo in particular and the customizability might not be enough to justify the price difference (at least it is not for me).

Back to the benchmarks themselves, I'd assume the Framework 16 would perform a bit better (at least more than 5%) compared to the Framework 13, I'm guessing there might be some optimisations that could come in the future to improve the results? Maybe it's strength is in longer lived benchmarks because of (supposedly) better thermals, or in performance per watt?

In contrast, I see no value in preinstalled Linux.

Because, each and every time, I'd rather install it myself.

It's not about using the preinstalled one, it's about putting your reputation on the line that you are cofnident enough to preistall it and support it officially.

Tuxedo is a Linux laptop, Framework is "just another" windows laptop that happens to work with Linux as well.

If I was them, I wouldn't bother.

Best to focus on making the hardware the absolute best.

This includes selecting parts that work well on oss systems, as well as taking special care on the firmware side that everything is as correct and open source as possible.

Anybody else can do software support; that's not my business.

Tuxedo is a Linux laptop, Framework is "just another" windows laptop that happens to work with Linux as well.

I disagree with the practice of bundling to begin with. If it was up to me, I'd have laws in place to prevent bundling.

I do not want a Linux laptop, or a Windows one. I just want a laptop that doesn't suck.

Yes, you are right, no bundling would be best across the board. But Microsoft is doubling down on this, with mandatory TPM requirements and keyboard changes for vendors.

Unfortunately, in practice it's the case that the vendor's advertised support matters.

No modular GPU makes Tuxedo Pulse 14 a pretty different product?

Maybe, for my personal purposes it does not. Considering how I use, and intend to use a laptop, I wound not purchase the GPU module.

I'm judging the two as a replacement for my current laptop, and the GPU does not really affect that. The soldered RAM on the Tuxedo Pulse 14 laptop does indeed give me doubts, I'm not saying it's flawless, only that, at least to me, it provides a better overall justification for the purchase.

If you don't need the modular GPU, and are considering a 14 inch anyways, then why is the FW 13 not your reference machine anyways? But yeah, it sounds like the FM16 probably isn't the product for your needs.

Framework 13 has an "U" CPU comparat to the Tuxedo's "HS", which is the same as the Framework 16 one.

The Framework 13 laptop is still significantly more expensive than Tuxedo Pulse considering the difference in hardware specs.

I understand the difference is from the customizability features, but don't consider it worth it. I'm happy for people to disagree with me.

I thought my framework was great at two weeks, it was around 2 months that my mind started changing, and at 10 months that I replaced it with a mac

After trying to replace the battery in a 2014 MacBook Pro, doing a repair in a 2020 MBP, and my experience (performance aside) with an M3, I wish I could buy your framework (alas, iOS development).

I bought an M2 air and it never gets warm. I can do so much more with it and it doesn't flinch

You can buy my framework, but you will not like how easily and loudly the fan comes on

without a particular reason(s), that is a useless comment

low quality craftsmanship, small things like hinges, sliders, and the extensions don't fit well

bad thermals, the thing always ran hot playing just a single video, the fan was almost always on

Cliffhanger! Plot twist the mac was a knock off dell

It's more like the mac knocks it out of the park for only being 30% more in price

(maxed out framework vs m2 air)

I don't think anyone is beating mac silicon right now. I didn't understand it until I got this mac I'm using now. Haven't had once in 8 years, which still runs fine for basic things.

I paid a pretty high early adopter price as well.

I cannot turn my 5th batch laptop on without connecting to a charger. Even if the battery is charged.

Resynchronizing time every day gets old fast.

One more person chiming in to say that I'm really happy with my 13" AMD Framework laptop.

It wakes from sleep and reconnects wifi before I'm done opening the lid, I can charge it from either side, the screen is beautiful, it's nice and lightweight, the performance and battery life are good enough that I don't think about it.

On the down side, the touchpad is a notable downgrade from the macbook I use for work, and the speakers are down-ish-firing and fairly weak. Also, twice in the ~1.5 months I've had it, it has completely frozen for about 30 seconds (even the mouse cursor didn't respond) before hitting a windows bluescreen and then rebooting. No idea what's causing that, but there is some suggestion on the forum that it's the AMD graphics drivers. However, I also have a GPD Win Mini with a similar APU and it's never once frozen like that on me.

I'm probably going to switch it to Ubuntu in the near future, so that might sidestep the freezing issue, although I expect it to eventually be sorted out either way.

But, again, overall I'm very happy with it.

It wakes from sleep and reconnects wifi before I'm done opening the lid

My experience was this is only true for "s2idle" suspend but that mode causes battery drain of 30% every 8 hours which was way more than I was willing to tolerate. It's okay I guess if you're just commuting and unplugging-plugging or something. But it didn't work for me for leisure travel when I would often go 24 hours without opening my laptop.

In "deep" sleep mode (which only works with some SSDs) power drain is minimal but it takes upwards of 15 seconds to resume and reconnect to wifi. This is what I use now. I just tolerate the 15 seconds, but I wish it were as fast as a Macbook.

You're probably right about that. Mine hibernates after a few hours, and then it does take a bit longer to be ready to use, but I've never noticed significant battery drain in between usages.

My SSD is a SK Hynix P41, which I believe does support the lower power states.

Yes, I use a SK Hynix P31.

I previously used a Samsung 980 Pro and that did NOT work with deep sleep.

This is my experience as well :/

I am less bullish on the screen of the FW13. The color accuracy at various brightness levels leaves a bit to be desired. Gamma calibration seems to be problematic. My Gen 1 Surface Book, Dell Ultrasharp monitors (that are a decade old and only 99% sRGB), and M1 Macbook Air all have much better displays for accuracy out of the box.

The upside is that, if/when FW offers a better screen in the future (with touch?) I feel comfortable doing the swap myself.

Gonna be interesting to see if the community effort to get an oculink port goes anywhere, would make using it with an eGPU much more viable.

Regardless, it sounds pretty great from this review and the upgradable backslot is a massive achievement.

What’s the advantage of Oculink over regular Thunderbolt/USB4 for eGPU ?

Essentially instead of running a not so trivial stack on both ends to handle USB4/TB4 virtual channel system over which you then tunnel PCIE L2 packets, it's straightforward, unmodified, PCIE connection with at most retimers/signal conditioners on both ends.

OTOH, it's only PCIE signal.

Reduced protocol overhead allowing for greater throughput. It is native PCIe.

We certainly hope so! We handed some early adapter boards to the community members who were working on it, so we hope that they'll be able to show some initial prototypes quickly.

My 11th gen Intel Framework is my only PC and has been a great machine. I use it for dev, gaming, and general computing. Integrated Intel graphics goes surprisingly far if you run games at 720p - Skyrim, Dishonered, the Mass Effects, and more recently Battlebit all run well. I'd imagine the more recent Ryzens would be much better.

I want the 16 for more screen real-estate and better gaming; I've had family notice my laptop and make positive comments, so I may pass it on when I eventually upgrade.

On a related note, I saw someone else with a Framework laptop at a coffee shop the other day here in Alaska - super cool! First time I've seen another Framework user :)

For what it’s worth, that makes at least 3 of us in Alaska with one :)

unless you were the one he saw, and there are only 2 :)

run games at 720p - Skyrim, Dishonered, the Mass Effects

720p and games that are 12+ years old or are deliberately low poly. That's not the most ringing of endorsements.

While I agree with you that pc gaming is such a mature space that you can have an entire lifetime of fun with a historical catalog, the games you are describing are brushing up against the category of “retro gaming” at this point and the performance you are describing would be considered poor in the year those titles were released.

I am really happy with my fw13. I love everything of it.

I even made the simulation of upgrading to 64gb of ram just after I bought it to prove myself that it was the right choice.

I cannot think of going back to buying something I know I'll most likely have to replace entirely after some time because it cannot be upgraded.

Extremely happy as well. I did put 64gb on it and use it all day for GIS and design on Ubuntu, plugged to a Dell dock and two 4k monitors for a triple head set up

Just wanted to chime in that I love my Framework 13 as well. It's been running great on Ubuntu for well over a year now--no complaints.

Really happy too after running Fedora for about a year now on the 12th gen.

I had doubts about the 3:2 screen ratio but although it was unfamiliar at first I quickly realized that the extra vertical space for a 13' computer !

I wanted to love Framework, but it just doesn't compete at all with my X1 Carbon.

Then again, I've failed to find any laptop that I like more than the X1 Carbon. It's damn near perfect.

Love the X1C, would love it more if it wasn't Intel-only.

Be careful what you wish for. I went with an Ryzen thinkpad last year (Z16 Gen 1) and it's been a big headache. Only after about a year did software (BIOS mainly) support settle into something not scary flaky. Things like external USB displays completely breaking for a couple months. Fan control breaking. Power mgmt in general not great.

I am fairly certain an Intel system would have had less drama.

It absolutely competes if you value upgradability. The two are about the same price for similar specs, but the moment you buy the X1 the clock starts ticking. Heck even the RAM in it is soldered to the motherboard these days.

Plus in maintaining the slimness of the overall laptop if wanting to use the Gigabit Ethernet port it sticks out from the side of the laptop.

I really wish they'd fix this.

Yes, and please put some ports on the back.

Who the hell wants ethernet cables running sideways across their desk?

Yeah, speaking for myself a mix of dense standard ports and a few swappable ones would be more attractive. I wouldn't even mind them being more difficult to swap out (requiring some disassembly) if it meant they were smaller or sturdier.

How big does framework have to grow before they can provide color options.

I'm also interested in this. It's literally the only thing holding me back from getting one. If I spend $3k+ on a machine I don't want it to look like an off-brand Macbook.

I'll settle for offbrand matte black thinkpad. I just checked and there's decent DBRAND skins but the bottom coverage is ugly.

After a year of waiting them to start shipping to where I live, I gave up and ordered a new Lenovo.

Same. After wanting a Framework 13 for years, I am now going to wait for a Snapdragon Elite X Lenovo instead.

That looks very promising, but I'm not brave enough to jump into ARM land yet.

Perhaps in the next cycle.

Note that if you want a Framework laptop and order it today, it won't ship to you until between early April or late June.

If you need a laptop now, you are better off getting a higher-end business-class laptop from Dell or Lenovo. (And probably a lot better price too.)

Note that that only applies to Framework Laptop 16, which we've seen massive pre-order demand on. Both the Intel and AMD Framework Laptop 13 models ship within a week from inventory.

Or pay the scalper tax, buying second hand.

For a customizable/modular laptop, it’s a pity that we can’t have full-height cursor and function keys, or even a ThinkPad-style seventh row.

that arrow key configuration is an absolute show-stopper for me and has been since MS came out with a version of their original white ergo keyboards with that configuration.

it was this: http://xahlee.info/kbd/i/Microsoft_Natural_Keyboard_Gen1-s.j...

vs this: https://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/ProductImage/23-109-...

I'm pretty sure it was still the 90's when I developed this special hate for changing the arrow keys.

I'm really interested in getting a Framework to run as my Linux laptop. Does anyone have experience using GNOME on their Framework (preferably AMD)? How is the heat dissipation and battery life? My main issue with most laptops is how they get uncomfortably hot after a while. That and also bad trackpads.

I'm running gnome in fedora silverblue on an Intel 13" Framework and I only get ~6 hours of battery life doing web browsing, school work, light programming, and watching videos.

Phoronix do a good job with benchmarks, but their reviews typically stop there. There is another review from Verge that goes a lot more into daily use concerns and build quality: https://www.theverge.com/24047424/framework-laptop-16-review

Pretty striking how different these two reviews are.

I'm still bummer Framework teased having translucent laptop shells and then reneged on it. Even Apple no longer indulges in this style. I miss it.

We had a translucent version of the Bezel for Framework Laptop 13, which we shipped to the people who ordered it in the first few batches of 13th Gen and Ryzen 7040 preorders last year. The manufacturing yields ended up too low to continue production of it with the tooling we re-use across a number of different Bezel colors, so we removed the option from new orders.

I'm looking forward to mine (batch 13, no clue how long that means I'll be waiting) but I'm a bit disappointed in it based on LTT's review. Needs to be modded with some thermal pads behind the keyboard to cut down on flex. And somehow the screen on their unit is partially obscured by the bezel and has obvious uniformity issues. For the price I expect better and the only reason I'm still going through with the purchase is because I really love the idea of a properly modular laptop. I've been hoping for their success since I first heard of them and I continue to hope they grow and improve.

I just wish it was possible to make an order from Sweden

When can I get an Ortholinear keyboard module? I will happily switch from my MacBook air the moment Ortho is supported on a laptop. Did anything ever come of the collab with Jack Humbert?

A very interesting laptop and possibly my next one of my 10 yo ZBook dies for any reason.

Two improvements: matte screen and note than anything else physical buttons on the touchpad. I don't mind if they make the touchpad any smaller. I don't need all the area of the touchpads of the last years.

I wonder if some other company will make accessories for the Framework, starting from the touchpad.

By the way, I'd buy the laptop without the number pad and finally get a touchpad / keyboard combination centered with the screen and my body.

LTT released a video that shows battery life benchmarks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUCm4wKarpQ

If only they had an anodized black option.... The fact that you have to resort to breaking out the rattle-can or use janky stickers on your $3000+ machine just to have it in the most popular computer color is simply maddening.

I know this is nuts, but I recently bought a thinkpad x230t from 2012 when my StarBook died after a year, and it is the best laptop I've ever used.

It's useless with this near-zero-height keyboard. Instead of offering us a usable keyboard, they put in RGB lighting.

Unless they offer something we can press with decent key travel - and I mean no less than 2.5 mm - I'm not buying.

(For those who don't know what I mean: https://www.pcworld.com/article/557179/full-travel-keyboard-... )

When I need a laptop, I think 13" is factor I would go for. Definitely some creativity around even shells would be great, if not exotic keyboards and more. I currently have Thinkpad with PopOs! and love it, so I would go with that.

I'm very excited about this; I'm not in a position right now where I particularly need a laptop, but my existing laptop is very much EOL at this point, to the point where some components have started failing, and depending on reviews I strongly suspect that when I need a new laptop the Framework 16 will be it.

The biggest feature I want is a good stylus/touchscreen for portable drawing, in my dream world that would be something I could swap in and out, possibly replacing the keyboard. I can imagine having the front keyboard mostly be a touchscreen display and just sticking a narrow module to one side of the screen with hotkeys...

Having a decent laptop that I can add a GPU to and take a GPU off of, add a digitizer and use as a drawing tablet or remove a touchscreen for trips where I don't need one, switch keyboards for specific projects -- quick swapping of components isn't just cool from a repair perspective, it's a major selling point to be able to have a single device that can serve multiple roles on demand. In most cases you probably don't want a GPU on a laptop; you want extra battery life. Until you do. And when you have some rendering workload or something intensive to do, you turn off the computer, plug in the GPU, and turn it back on.

I really hope that 3rd-party components take off. I'm trying to be responsible and wait until I have an actual need (and at the very least I want to wait and see reviews), but I'd be very tempted to buy one of these as soon as they launch if there was digitizer support, there aren't a lot of good, repairable, linux-compatible drawing tablets on the market.

There's definitely an audience for Framework. But for a laptop/mini-pc user who likes to keep their tech for 7+ years and usually opt for no special graphics. A mini-pc works great for me. Lot of them have good Linux compatibility too. ~70% of the cost is the CPU/motherboard which cannot be swapped. I don't care much about specific ports etc. As long as I can extend RAM and SSD, that's enough customization. So a framework feels overkill.

Oxide & Friends has a good episode with Framework's founder: https://oxide.computer/podcasts/oxide-and-friends/1632642

Just gonna add my voice to the chorus of folks singing the praises of Framework's laptops. I have used the 13 for the last few years, and I'm planning to upgrade to a 16 soon. As a long-time Linux user, it's been my favorite laptop by far. A great machine, and a zero-compromise experience from a hardware support PoV. In fact, when you consider Framework's standard-setting level of user serviceability, it makes other laptops seem like a pretty major compromise.

I bought the framework 13, but I'm just left wondering what was the point? Like... there's nothing to upgrade anyway.

When I buy a new laptop it won't be a framework laptop, that's for sure.

I'm not even convinced the hardware switches are real. When I toggle them on and off, my camera and mic still work so... clearly cant have actually been hardware switches.

Whenever I hear about a new Framework launch it makes me think of the Sandbenders computer in Idoru[1] by William Gibson.

Nice to see sustainable, reparable and upgradable laptops come to market.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idoru