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Ask HN: Who else is working on nothing?

hn_throwaway_99
35 replies
22h58m

Wow, I just wanted to say thanks a lot for posting this. I'm in a very similar boat. I was always very focused and goal-oriented in my younger days - a bit of a workaholic but generally enjoyed working hard. A number of changes since the pandemic have left me feeling very similar to you:

1. Like tons of other people, I re-evaluated my relationship with work during the pandemic. To be honest, it wasn't easy. I think a ton of people (especially Americans) tie up their self-worth with their jobs, and during the pandemic I just felt more disconnected from my job.

2. I think a lot of folks have underestimated the psychological changes that happen from being way more isolated these days. I don't mean "shut-in" isolated, I just mean that working remote most days means the number of people I interact with in person has gone way, way down. I'm all for remote work but I won't deny that I greatly miss a lot of the energy from just being around other people.

3. Finally, I've just become really disillusioned with tech over the course of my career, which makes me very sad. I started my career during the dot com boom, and there was so much optimism about the beneficial societal changes that tech and the Internet would bring. I don't feel like all tech is "evil" these days, but I do feel that the world would be better off if all the big tech companies (Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft) just completely stopped building any new tech. Obviously that's not realistic, but it highlights my feeling that I'm not looking forward to any new tech from these companies, because more tech is going to invariably lead to more isolation, more "doom scrolling", more assaults on our attention. I feel like most big tech companies have just become the equivalent of drug dealers, just trying to hijack our brain's evolutionary attention mechanisms to addict us. "Attention is all you need" is right...

Anyway, don't have any advice or anything, just wanted to say I appreciated your post in a "misery loves company" sort-of-way, so thank you.

brabel
19 replies
22h16m

I started my career during the dot com boom, and there was so much optimism about the beneficial societal changes that tech and the Internet would bring. I don't feel like all tech is "evil" these days...

Wow that's so true... we totally didn't see the social media dystopia we're living in today coming. We imagined a world where everyone has all the world knowledge available at their fingertips would be wonderful. How wrong were we.

hunter2_
6 replies
21h24m

On average, yes it's easy to get stuck in a rut with low quality content, toxic social media, attention-stealing recommendations, etc. but with just a reasonable amount of effort it can be avoided in favor of the good stuff. Just like a traveler can get stuck at tourist traps or with just a few more moments of planning find a local treasure; and how if you're at a buffet you could get locked into the mac & cheese or go find the hibachi station in the back. It would be nice if getting lost wasn't a thing, but it's not terribly onerous to navigate the scenic route.

j4yav
5 replies
21h16m

But we are surrounded by people not doing that, and not even through any fault of their own for the most part. They are wired into an endless machine that trades dopamine hits for their money. Children are wired in before they even have a chance to resist.

mattgreenrocks
2 replies
20h11m

The Extremely Online crowd’s influence is waning.

Twitter is widely mocked as a cesspool of conversation. Facebook is seen as antiquated. Instagram and TikTok are the current darlings but they seem to have less of an iron grip than the OG social networks.

The future is probably not another winner-take-all network. We’ve tried enough of those. The future is probably smaller networks where users self-select into them based on affiliations, much like web forums.

t0bia_s
0 replies
11h41m

You mean Discord (interest, hobbies) and family chat channels on various platforms?

genevra
0 replies
7h20m

Weird, I've seen social media and "online communities" move into the publicly accepted sphere more and more. 10 years ago you'd be looked at funny by certain people if you said you had a social media or reddit account, and nowadays it's just sorta expected

ryandrake
1 replies
20h5m

I used to feel like I wanted to "Save Them From Themselves" but I no longer care. As long as I and my family are not zombies, I could care less that the rest of these people we're surrounded by are lobotomizing themselves. As long as they aren't in my way they can do what they want. They'll be voluntarily stepping into their own Matrix Pods in 20 years and I won't be.

hn_throwaway_99
0 replies
17h37m

I used to feel the way that you do, but in a social democracy "I don't care what those idiot zombies do" has it's limits, because everyone gets an equal vote.

Also, you say that "As long as I and my family are not zombies", but every single one of my friends and family with kids age 10 and up are genuinely pretty terrified about the potential impact of social media on their kids: "I feel so lucky I didn't have to deal with this when I was growing up" is a common refrain I hear. And yes, all these parents try to teach their kids about the pitfalls of social media, but they know they can't just can it, so it's a huge, largely negative influence that they feel limited power to fight against.

amelius
6 replies
21h48m

In the early 90s the internet was great. The problems started with companies and their inherent greed.

castalian
5 replies
21h14m

No, it was the people. Early internet users demographics was a result of extreme selection. Companies did exist back then.

bakugo
2 replies
20h39m

This is true. The big turning point was the release of the iPhone, a device that allowed people who didn't know what a computer was to access the internet.

ponector
0 replies
1h15m

Why iphone? We had internet on mobile phones before that point.

But I agree with idea that internet became dumber with more people in.

kian
0 replies
18h40m

I'd also call out Eternal September in 1993, when AOL made it easy for anyone with a computer to connect online. This permanently changed the composition of the internet, and paved the way for the social networks that would later come to dominance after the iPhone was released.

gopher_space
0 replies
19h57m

Barriers to entry that revolve around level of interest are ok.

amelius
0 replies
21h8m

Companies existed of course, but they provided the building blocks of the internet and were not directly concerned with the processing of our data.

mandeepj
3 replies
21h23m

How wrong were we

Nowhere! Social media brought out the true character of people; most (many?) of us are negative species, mix that along with bad people.

doctorwho42
2 replies
20h49m

Ehh this type of thinking is reductive.

The primary issues are a combination of nature vs nurture. The age of argument, the solution has always been some combination of both.

But when you look at our western society over the past 60 years or so, you see that -fundamentally- the nurture part of the equation is being heavily influenced by capitalistic forces. For example, news used to be once a day, then 3 times a day, now 24/7/365. There isn't more news now than 100 years ago, so how do you feel all that time and how do you keep someone engaged? (If you have been paying attention, you know the answer is selling fear, sex, violence, and other negative emotions are traits of the human species.)

But really, the easiest way to counter this toxic mindset was said best by mister Rodgers: just look for the helpers. Look for the guys running into the fray when everyone else runs away... Those people are just as human as you or me... They are the true character of the human species. For we are a communal species that depends on one another, we always have, we aren't a bad species... We are just letting our man made systems bring out the worst.

johnnyanmac
1 replies
3h7m

Look for the guys running into the fray when everyone else runs away... Those people are just as human as you or me... They are the true character of the human species.

If we have to look to find them, are they really the "true" character? I'm sure if we look hard enough we could find a polite polar bear, but is that a "true" polar bear?

vwcx
0 replies
45m

main characters =/= dominant characters =/= true characters

smugglerFlynn
0 replies
1h45m

I think what we have really underestimated is the amount of people who would get hooked on instant gratification more than this available knowledge (which, turns out, I am also guilty of).

Then came for-profits that agressively monetised every single bad habit one might imagine online and got us where we are today. Knowledge is still at the fingertips, but so many of us are now short-attention-span information-holics and instant gratification addicts.

We imagined brave new world, but became an equivalent of chain smokers trying to break out of their habit in a world where everyone else also smokes.

granshaw
6 replies
17h15m

One question I’ve set out to answer is: what would I do if I were fired tomorrow?

Understood that not everyone is in the position to switch to lower paying careers, start over, etc - but if you have some leash, what WOULD you do if you were fired tomorrow?

(And I don’t mean short term like take a vacation then find another tech job - mean longer term like what kind of job will you be looking for next, or business to start, etc)

Curious to hear your thoughts and anyone else who cares to share

kirso
1 replies
9h40m

This is such a powerful question (another version of it, what would you do if you wouldn't have to worry about money). Sometime ago I tried to answer it and realised that I don't know. It sparked anxiety, meaning I've been doing something for such a long time 15+ years now without knowing what really my end goal is and why I am doing that.

Whatever its called, zombie or auto/robo mode, the unintentional living, its freaking scary because in most cases if you remove the work identity from a person, there will be a sad shallow shell of a person left.

On a bright side, its never too late. I started actually putting the money to use to create experiences (hiking in Taiwan, diving in Thailand, paragliding in Turkey). Starting to write and build products (finally learning to code for the sake of building something simple and useful instead of setting up kubernetes).

That kind of existence gave me energy, although I do have melancholic nostalgia about former days of building startups and working in a team to get to an exit. It all seem like a war story I will be telling people in my 50s, how I moved countries without knowing anyone, joined a company that got to $50m ARR, grew to 100 people and became profitable ever since.

The work identity we have is a interesting phenomenon, despite feeling happy in life, I do miss ambitious goals and working in a small team of friends and interesting people to reach the highs of professional achievement.

I suppose in the end everything is about the balance.

granshaw
0 replies
7h10m

Thanks for sharing. What are you doing for income now? Are you retired?

j7ake
1 replies
13h4m

The ideal answer is: "If I got fired tomorrow, I would be doing mostly the same work as before, but maybe less meetings and admin duties."

Careers that fit this answer: artists, writers, musicians, mathematicians, scientists (those who lean more towards theory).

t0bia_s
0 replies
11h22m

As an freelance artist for 9 years I can say that you have different type of challenges.

Founding usefulness in your work means everyday questions about balance between stable income and making actually new, innovative, non-trending things. Free market have unlimited possibilities, but making art for money is not my motivation to do art.

Poor artists are real and I slowly understand why. If your passion is creativity, priorities are different, which makes hard to pay your bills, but in same time let you go deeper of meaning. Well... It's difficult to describe it actually.

nktrnk
0 replies
16h42m

I’ve been thinking about this too. And it’s also usually used as a counter-argument to people wanting to get out of their jobs.

However, here’s what I realized: most people work in “regular” 9-5 jobs. That includes “tech people”, who like to think of themselves as artists, but are not. And it takes like 2 decades to get trained to do a regular job if you take into account k-12 (which trains you to be a 9-5 worker and discourages anything else), uni, and the first few years of professional experience.

So is it that surprising that once you get disillusioned with being a 9-5 worker it would take you at the very least few years to figure out how to not be one?

What I’m trying to say is it should be expected to not know what you want to do. Because even getting to the point where you could do what 90% of the population does take a tremendous amount of effort. So once you want to do something else, it will take a while to figure out too. And you can totally fail along the way as well.

johnnyanmac
0 replies
3h2m

I don’t mean short term like take a vacation then find another tech job - mean longer term like what kind of job will you be looking for next, or business to start, etc

I mean, the job I'd be looking for is another tech job?

I do have stuff I want to do in 5,10 years. Maybe even vague ideas of 20 years out. But I lack the funds and the expertise to pull it off. I'm sure many dream of being their own businessman or simply traveling and experiencing the earth without worries of rent. But even for tech workers that is a lifestyle that can't be maintained without some corporate kowtowing (or having a silver spoon).

qorrect
1 replies
20h30m

Thank you both - I'm feeling the same, and I had tied up so much of my personality and life with software development, I feel pretty lost now. I've had a side project to work on for as long as I can remember, now I'm just not interested in building at all. And honestly, I don't know where to go from here.

granshaw
0 replies
17h10m

Are you in a high cost of living situation that’s hard to get out of? Do you have kids?

If NOT, I would start by thinking if there’s ways you could drastically cut down your cost off living, like moving somewhere cheaper or even looking at Southeast Asia etc if that’s your jam

That would give you more options on the financial side of things in case you wanted to start over or have a go at something with a long ramp up time

wildrhythms
0 replies
4h35m

My outlook is: if you work in big tech today, whatever you're working on, in its final culmination, is just a means to clutter the internet with ads.

om154
0 replies
22h56m

I can relate a lot to this. Thanks for sharing

jassyr
0 replies
22h21m

Feels like you read my mind. I'm disconnected from career and generally feel disappointed with direction of technology. It's quite difficult finding meaning in life surrounded by careerist.

docmars
0 replies
11h14m

I resonate with this -- I've noticed a pattern of big tech companies using their power (and prowess) to regulate in the tech space more, limit what users can do, advertise more, force dark patterns on their customers, and make puzzling decisions that rob the excitement they used to bring to the table of the past.

They still make great new / updated products in a few areas, but it also seems like they take just as much as they give, these days. Whether it's changes to pricing models (Amazon Prime Video ad-free extra charges), or Google's notorious penchant for killing their own products (or features), or Microsoft's continuous push to get Edge in front of Windows users at almost any cost.

Or Apple only offering their high-end MacBooks with Touch Bars, rather than physical function keys before they finally fixed everything with the M1 series almost 4 years later -- 4 years of Touch Bar hell, or else suffer using a low-end laptop that isn't capable of the demanding workflows your job requires along with the fact that you're a power user who needs real function keys and (gasp!) a physical escape key to work efficiently on the go, like me.

These companies really seem to be resting on their laurels and toying with customers now, to see how annoying they can be. And what's worse is, we've grown to rely on their products because they happen to build our operating systems and hardware in many cases. Bigger changes to these can have devastating effects and these companies don't seem to understand the responsibility they have to move towards creating a positive, exciting experience for customers while leaving alone the things that work really well. All rather than sowing doubt with a lot of side decisions that make people unhappy ultimately.

Death by a thousand cuts, it really starts to erode confidence in any of them, no matter what they release that should be exciting.

d1m
0 replies
31m

I don't feel like all tech is "evil" these days, but I do feel that the world would be better off if all the big tech companies (Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft) just completely stopped building any new tech. Obviously that's not realistic, but it highlights my feeling that I'm not looking forward to any new tech from these companies, because more tech is going to invariably lead to more isolation, more "doom scrolling", more assaults on our attention. I feel like most big tech companies have just become the equivalent of drug dealers, just trying to hijack our brain's evolutionary attention mechanisms to addict us. "Attention is all you need" is right...

"Attention is all you need" among above paragraph really hits hard and it's true. I think I feel the same way like all big tech companies should just be stopped from bringing new tech. Indeed, I have just started hating tech now a days. We are just getting more apart and away from everyone day by day with new emerging technology.

It is really pathetic to know that tech is influencing new generation totally in negative direction to what we supposed where they should be leading to. I think even the Parents now a days should parent their child more like it used to in olden days rather than showing them children's rhyme on phone or tablet.

I have stopped surfing social media, they try to isolate me from the truth and what's actually happening and rather feed content which is biased according to my activities and what I like. This really frightens me.

advael
0 replies
22h3m

I strongly relate, and think a big part it for me is that most people range from apathetic to hostile to most projects that try to wrest any power from tech companies, despite complaining about the way they've been immiserated by them in the next breath. It's hard enough trying to pry even little bits of freedom or individuality from the grasp of all these moneyed interests without every effort to do something like it getting a bunch of random hate

reactordev
32 replies
23h27m

If you find yourself thinking “this is all for nothing”, you’d be correct. You can’t take any of this crap with you when you pass. You do what makes you happy. What makes you happy? Searching for external validation of a pat on the back for a job well done is not what makes one happy. Take a moment, pause, just be, focus on your happiness and what that means to you. Stop comparing yourself to others. Stop trying to find fulfillment through praise or purpose and instead search inwards and ask yourself “What do I like, dislike, enjoy, and am I doing those things?”. If you are just going through the motions but haven’t searched within then I suggest you take a time out and get to know you again. Remember you. Rediscover you. Or start a new path. Life isn’t a straight line.

Sajarin
19 replies
22h59m

This is a step in the right direction but it is still wrong. Yes, whatever praise or accolades you earn from work will be things you can never take with you when you pass. But the same also goes for whatever enjoyment you get from hobbies, interests or activities. You've just swapped one temporary source of happiness for another. Even if the latter is more meaningful, it is still temporary.

It is easy to suggest focusing on one's happiness but it is more useful and (more difficult) to figure out how to tackle unhappiness instead. The goal is equanimity not happiness (i.e happiness in the conventional hedonic sense). Focus on the cessation of your personal suffering.

panarky
9 replies
22h40m

> when you pass

Nihilism is not the belief that there is no God and life is ultimately meaningless.

Nihilism is recognizing that there is no God and life is ultimately meaningless, while continuing to sacrifice at a grinding job you hate, continuing to submit to the phony morality of those higher than you in the social hierarchy, conforming to social rituals and customs you privately think are bullshit, continuing to follow the rules of external authorities as if that might pay off in the afterlife.

Nihilism is understanding the truth, but pretending the universe is different than it really is, so you can evade personal responsibility for creating your own meaning.

Nihilism is behaving as if there is a God who gives life meaning, even when you don't actually believe that, instead of assuming responsibility for making your own meaning during the brief time you're alive.

epiccoleman
2 replies
21h34m

I found this video to be quite significant to me on the "nihilism" front : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv79l1b-eoI

pppoe
1 replies
16h15m

Thanks for the video. This is so encouraging.

epiccoleman
0 replies
2h33m

I'm glad you enjoyed it. I really like that whole channel, there's a lot of great stuff there.

brabel
2 replies
22h12m

Nihilism is behaving as if there is a God who gives life meaning, even when you don't actually believe that, instead of assuming responsibility for making your own meaning during the brief time you're alive.

TIL I am a nihilist.

kirso
1 replies
9h23m

That sounds more like absurdism > the belief that human beings exist in a purposeless, chaotic universe.

brabel
0 replies
34m

Would be interesting to hear a convincing argument against that.

Sajarin
1 replies
22h25m

I'm not a nihilist so I don't know whether those characterizations are accurate. It seems you are making some conflations with absurdism and pascal's wager.

Nihilism to me is about accepting the idea that there is no self but without actually having directly experienced that truth. And according to buddhism for instance, there is a way to experience a selfless existence which gives rise to true equanimity.

Without direct experience, nihilism is just another form of faith.

reactordev
0 replies
18h2m

Correct, the one truth is Buddha and its many derivatives. We are one and we are none. That our existence itself is but a thread of wool in a spool of yarn in a fabric of life on a bed of chaos.

“Many people are alive but don’t touch the miracle of being alive” - Thich Nhat Hanh

yayr
0 replies
20h40m

I don't understand why having the opportunity as an individual and species of defying entropy and all the consequences this would bring should be meaningless...

reactordev
5 replies
19h7m

“This is a step in the right direction but it is still wrong”

You are wrong in suggesting I’m wrong. There isn’t any wrong. If you believe what you say, you would understand that and strip “wrong” from your vocabulary. There is only a way. There are many ways. The one I described was mine. The universe does not recognize your black and white thinking.

Sajarin
4 replies
14h16m

I mean this doesn’t really mean anything. There is a right view and a wrong view, and of course you can make incremental steps towards right views.

Don’t get so attached to your own opinions, that’s a form of clinging.

reactordev
1 replies
9h28m

“There is a right view and a wrong view” there you go again. No, there is your own right way and wrong way. Those ways are not the same as mine per se. Stop trying to conform my world view to yours. I would highly recommend you read “The Heart of the Buddha’s Teachings” by Thich Nhat Hanh.

Sajarin
0 replies
6h2m

The terms right view and wrong view are from buddhism. There is a right view as taught by the Buddha found in his teachings. Clinging to right view is better than clinging to wrong view, even if it’s still clinging.

But following your own logic, why the resistance to my comments if my statements are neither right or wrong and is just as valid as yours? I’m not intentionally doing the things you’re accusing me of doing.

At the end of the day, may you understand the causes of your own suffering and find peace.

pauby
1 replies
9h56m

Don’t get so attached to your own opinions, that’s a form of clinging.

Ironically, this is precisely what you're doing.

Sajarin
0 replies
5h59m

lol this comment is ironic on many levels, thanks

brainless
2 replies
12h55m

I am not the OP, but I disagree here. Happiness that we find in our social life, our friendships, family and relationships is not the same or swap-able with our career. This is something I learned the hard way, being drunk on startup cool-aid in the early life till it wore me down.

Friendships or other things I mentioned: not that everything is smooth, but there is a sense of comfort, pleasure, joy that just does not go away with more time invested. Because I am not looking for returns. Just being around is bliss.

Bumming out of a beach is very underrated. Going to a movie date is underrated. This is where my happiness lies. Then on top I write code now again, not to gain startup throne but because I like learning and typing out my thoughts in code.

Sajarin
1 replies
5h54m

The point of disagreement here is probably with regards to our definitions of happiness. What you define as happiness, I see as just forms of temporary satisfaction or pleasure.

In my opinion, I think happiness isn’t the goal since it’s temporary. Instead we should aim for equanimity which arises from the complete cessation of stress and doubt and is much harder to obtain but is longer lasting.

mlrtime
0 replies
5h13m

It might be important to take a step back. If you are a practicing Buddhist and read OPs comment, you may be right. Most are not, and they can't be shoved into the deep end of this philosophy.

Having said that, taking small steps is important. I feel OPs point is valid, in the sense that happiness comes from within, not external validation.

demondemidi
4 replies
20h59m

Pass?

I think you mean “die”.

fasterik
3 replies
20h21m

I am frequently reminded of George Carlin's bit about "soft language" and how it obscures facts of life that we're uncomfortable about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h67k9eEw9AY

His criticism of soft language about aging and death starts around the 5 minute mark

ed_mercer
2 replies
15h14m

Dying is a fact now, but will it still be 50/100/1000 years from now on with current exponential technological advancements? Sooner or later it will be solved. Dying sucks on all accounts and there’s nothing positive to say about it, so it makes sense to lighten up that language. I definitely don’t want to be reminded all the time of my mortality, which is especially frustrating as it’s a problem that will be solved one day.

smeej
0 replies
14h23m

Verging away from the topic, but while it might be possible to imitate someone's consciousness after they've died, perhaps extremely convincingly, something tells me we'll each still find out the hard way, individually, that we've always been mortal.

fasterik
0 replies
6h47m

Physically, immortality is impossible due to the second law of thermodynamics. Everything dies, including solar systems, galaxies, and black holes. A biological body can potentially live orders of magnitude longer than we do now, but even then people will die of accidents and natural disasters. I don't see any reason not to speak plainly about it.

layer8
2 replies
17h48m

You also can’t take your happiness with you when you pass. Not disagreeing with your advice, but with the reasoning.

granshaw
1 replies
13h5m

Why would you care what happens after you pass?

layer8
0 replies
5h40m

Exactly my point.

fasterik
2 replies
20h9m

The problem isn't work per se, it's our attitudes toward work and the projects that we choose to work on.

"Do what makes you happy" is a cliche that we all accept, but if you think about it, it's actually a very self-centered and egoistic way of deciding what to do. If we used different heuristics, like do what's best for your family/community/world, it might lead to very different answers than doing what makes you happy. It might even involve quite a bit more of what we call "work". Not work for the purposes of financial gain or social status, but work that improves the world for current and future generations.

That said, it's clear that our culture doesn't optimize for rewarding the kinds of work that actually make the world better. That's something we should try to correct for, rather than abandoning work as a value altogether.

gifvenut
1 replies
10h26m

It’s just semantics. Helping others makes me happy.

fasterik
0 replies
5h47m

That might be true in your case. What makes someone else happy might be to engage in rent-seeking behavior to profit as much personally off of other people as possible. Even if maximizing personal happiness works as an ethical norm for some people, that doesn't mean that it's the best advice to give universally.

bitzun
0 replies
23h16m

One addition IMO: If anyone in your life tries to push you to seek their validation and do what they think you should (which is mostly just validating themselves), ignore and avoid them, or at least try to knock them down a peg.

tenpoundhammer
7 replies
23h5m

I found in my mid thirties that my perspective on what was important and desirable shifted significantly. Which led me to become disengaged from my desire to build side projects and learn new programming languages. It was a time were ecclesiastes from the Bible resonated a lot. After a while I just found out that I wasn’t interested in nothing but I had to rediscover what was important to me and what I valued spending my time on.

While my current lifestyle doesn’t lineup well with the tech grind and won’t get me attention online I’m much happier living a lifestyle that serves me and family rather than some external validation. Hope that helps and good luck on your journey.

fidotron
2 replies
22h36m

One of the massive things which caused a shift was knowing a decent sized group of people that became incredibly financially successful as the result of acquisitions and what this actually did to their personal lives. It really wasn't the all happy fun situation that it is so often portrayed as being.

Then there is the whole have kids<->not have kids axis, and where people fall on that will dramatically influence their priorities with work as well, with the former tending to see it as a way to finance raising their kids and the latter tending to attempt to replace kids with something else in their lives, which can often be work.

tesdinger
0 replies
20h34m

I just want to spend time on my hobbies. I'm in IT because it is the closest a job can be to my hobbies.

askafriend
0 replies
1h23m

Can you say more about your first point? I find that really interesting and much often isn't written about those scenarios.

granshaw
1 replies
17h8m

Do you worry that you won’t be able to keep up with the industry and get obsoleted and forced out of work or a certain comp level before you want?

harryquach
0 replies
1h47m

I am in my late 30s and used to worry about this, but I’ve been in the corporate world long enough to know that I can learn whatever I need to learn to secure a decent, paying dev job.

I’ve also realized, far more important than knowing the latest framework or tool, is the ability to work well with people. This is the skill I’ve been working on most, and in my opinion is far more valuable.

bluetomcat
0 replies
21h58m

In our younger years, we are primarily driven by economic necessity and social validation. Sure, programming genuinely interests me from my teenage years, but if it wasn't for attaining some level of financial independence, there's no way I could have spent most of my 20s in front of a screen, solving someone else's problems. I could have been doing it as a leisurely recreational hobby instead.

Now I'm in my late 30s, with a 5-year-old child and a well-furnished 2-bedroom flat that was paid for in cash. I don't feel like having to prove anything to anyone. I've not fallen prey to any kind of excessive material consumption. My best idea of spending quality time is assisting my son with playing with Lego, and then taking a walk in the park with a classic philosophical book from Plato or Hegel or Hume.

asim
0 replies
22h55m

Bingo. This happened to me also. What I valued changed. In my 20s and early 30s I was really serving myself. Even work was about my own curiosity and desire to work hard. Eventually as "me" time was stripped away I had to re-evaluate and understand what I was living for. We live in a world of abundance, excess and desire. The desire to create is not the same as being driven by a real need. And the cycle of consumerism only made our lives worse as we watched others who we aspired to be like or escape our lives for short periods through endless content binging. Our real needs are much simpler. We don't need a lot to live a good life. If anything we have to become more disciplined in learning how to need less.

logiduck
5 replies
20h9m

I'm not sure how this will resonate here, but this past year my interests in side projects sharply declined. For reference I am early 30s, married no kids. Up until now I used to work on 2-3 large side projects a year, diving deep into them obsessed with sleepless nights working.

Now with LLMs it just feels kind of like whats the point? Either my work will be consumed by an LLM to train and get tossed aside or i should just wait 5 years and whatever i will have worked on will probably just be a prompt away. Even if that doesn't become true, nobody really cares about traditional software building anyways. Everything is just LLMs. All interesting things about AI that I really liked building with ML or RL now just seem completely obsolete. Any mention of AI is just overwhelmed by "oh so your just connecting to ChatGPT and boom no problem, right?" with the majority of the population completely blind to the fact that there are many types of ML and other things besides an LLM.

Its just hard to get motivated by anything. Unless you are working on a LLM right now nobody really cares what you are doing in software. Just seems futile.

I think also my own personal expectations get in the way of doing side projects. Its hard to work hundreds of hours on something knowing the end monetary value is going to be $0. So I end up in this state of wanting to work on something but then getting cynical, realizing there's little to no money to be made and just demotivate myself.

Anyways that is a long rant and this past year instead of building software i started to learn an instrument. it has been great. with software there is this notion of something being "optimal" but with music there is no optimal. Even the highest level artists are not satisfied with their work. The music is always above you.

coolThingsFirst
1 replies
17h4m

Even the highest level artists are not satisfied with their work.

Is this true, sad if true

Its hard to work hundreds of hours on something knowing the end monetary value is going to be $0.

What else are you gonna do with your life, this is it. Fire up VSCode.

logiduck
0 replies
16h42m

Why is it sad to pursue something that will never reach perfection? Why is it sad to go on a path literally thousands of people have gone on and have done better than you? Release yourself from these things and you will be much happier.

Music taught me you don't need to be perfect or the best. Music is about connecting with other people. Its much better than computers for that. Its a very "meatspace" realm and while the virtual space has made music more accessible, it will always be firmly fully experienced in the in-person physical world that requires another human being.

What else are you gonna do with your life, this is it

Well i mean there are tons of things out in life that you can do besides sit in front of the computer producing code that very few people will see.

kmoser
0 replies
11h32m

with software there is this notion of something being "optimal" but with music there is no optimal. Even the highest level artists are not satisfied with their work. The music is always above you.

The same holds for software developers, or at least (IMO) the good ones: they always want to refine their code, or at least know where it could be further refined. The best of those just know when to stop refining and move on.

Musicians also strive for the optimal performance: they continually practice to get better. Most are smart enough to know they will never be perfect, just as a good engineer knows there is no perfect code (Knuth notwithstanding). But that doesn't stop them from trying.

kirso
0 replies
9h21m

Its hard to work hundreds of hours on something knowing the end monetary value is going to be $0

Thats kind of a crux of an issue. Why not find something you'd work on regardless whether it will be worth $0 or $100?

carlosbaraza
0 replies
8h21m

I feel the same way. I follow the LLM/AI advancements very closely, and I find that motivating. However, the whole discussion seems to turn around long term replacement of all labor and absorption of business value into some big tech providing the AI infrastructure.

I usually had two types of motivation, technical motivation to learn skills that would eventually be useful in my career and hacker motivation to build something with the implicit expectation of eventually making it a sustainable business. But now I am not certain there is a point in learning a new skill or building a side hustle if eventually an LLM will be better than me or my business for pennies.

Maybe this whole feeling is part of the AI replacement hype, and totally false. And maybe it is just common to feel this way when technological revolutions happen, and it's just temporary and we should push through. Regardless, we probably should keep monitoring the space.

Maybe it's time to genuinely focus on doing anything that intrinsically makes you feel good without any external expectations. An LLM might be better than you at everything, but you would still enjoy your mediocre implementation, just because you did it. Maybe this is what it really means to be an artisan.

jmkr
4 replies
21h31m

There's a lot of negative vibes in programming these days. When I think of a programming community I think of fun, learning, engagement, projects, /programming/. These days it feels like it's just for money or power. These negative feelings make it all less fun.

So I've been doing music instead. I'm not good at it at all, but learning it ticks pretty much all the boxes that programming does. It's scientific in some ways, creative in others, and overall kind of fun to just build things.

castalian
1 replies
21h12m

TBH modern music also bears a lot of negative vibes.

jasonm23
0 replies
16h21m

The industry is not the music.

Musical improvisation is one of the few forms of art a creator can enjoy as much as an audience.

speff
0 replies
14h0m

I switched to cooking - gives me the same feeling music does to you. Not so great for the waist though

makz
0 replies
20h13m

Exactly my thoughts. I've shifted to music as well. I'm not interested in programming anymore, music has taken the place programming had and for a living I do tech support.

zemvpferreira
3 replies
23h31m

I'm working on things. Just, things I subconsciously devalue because they're not new/hard/valuable enough. So when people ask me what I work on I often answer 'nothing much' back even though those same people would find what I'm actually doing to be as hard as most jobs - which is not that much but enough. Enough is what I should answer, and maybe you too.

Everything will work itself out, these years will turn out to have a hidden purpose, or you'll eventually die and it won't matter either way. If we avoid any major moral failures till the end then we're ahead of the curve, friend. We did our part.

thierrydamiba
1 replies
23h12m

This is also the curse of expertise. To most people in tech, uploading a weather dataset for one zip code and making a site that spits out predictions for the weather the next day is trivial.

It would not be an impressive project to people in industry and it would not impress most hiring managers. To quote you, it would be “nothing much”. For most people who aren’t in tech, this project sounds pretty cool and is very much something.

Easy to get lost in the sauce when you spend all day soaking in it.

tesdinger
0 replies
20h26m

I would think it is impressive, but I wouldn't find it impressive enough if it doesn't beat the established methods of forecasting. I don't start anything because I doubt it would meet my standards of being not pointless and superfluous.

bitzun
0 replies
23h18m

I love your sentiment. I've been fighting off the intrusive "when people ask me" thoughts to eliminate the absurd hypothetical shame/embarrassment. I think it's improved my life.

thr0way120
3 replies
17h21m

The value proposition, honestly, has fallen off a cliff.

If "they" can dangle things you really want (money, better lifestyle, interesting work) in front of you, then there is reason to get excited.

Right now? Oh hell no.

Entire tech industry is in the mode of getting rid of people, lowering standards, lowering pay checks, the work is boring and tedious.

It is reasonable to simply not have any motivation to work on or do anything if there is legitimately no "line of site" to improving your situation.

Or working on terms which you can resonate with.

The idea of going into an office shudder to work for people like WebMD on ... creating search engine spam content in the age of AI? oh hell no.

There have been times in my career where I was intrinsically ultra motivated and willing to overlook a lot of the toxic overhead that comes with corporate jobs.

Now?

I am really not enthusiastic or excited at all. The stuff that is showing up is all a step down, less pay, less interesting work, boring companies. I can't even get myself interested.

I know that when something that excites me comes along I can get motivated again, but after exhausting myself the last few years chasing carrots dangling on sticks I just dont want to do it anymore.

I dont know what it will take for corporate // work to motivate me again. I am not seeing it out there.

Sooner or later, "That" opportunity always shows up and I can renegage. Lately, no.

kirso
1 replies
9h18m

Funny that you mentioned WebMD - they just released this cringe video to let people return to the office: https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kxqnx/dont-mess-with-us-web...

wildrhythms
0 replies
4h31m

When I first saw this I thought it was a skit from The Onion. I fear we have reached some dystopian state of post-irony.

granshaw
0 replies
12h59m

Learn to live on a ~50-75% of your salary is what I’ve been telling people. The good times for American engineers are gone

jedberg
3 replies
22h11m

I don't have much to offer you, but I have some questions if you're willing to answer:

1. Do you have a live in partner and/or children?

2. Do you work remotely?

I ask because I'm seeing similar sentiments more lately from friends who work remotely and live alone. Even those with active social lives still have this sense of lack of fulfillment.

But I don't see it amongst peers with live in partners or children or who work in an office. In fact I had some friends who were working remotely alone who either got partners or returned to the office and their outlook improved.

To be clear, I'm absolutely not suggesting that you should get a live-in partner or children or go to the office just for socializing.

I'm more making a comment on a trend I've noticed with the rise of remote work, and one that we as a society will need to work on fixing together without forcing everyone back to work.

namuol
2 replies
21h46m

(Edit: just one semi counterexample)

I work remotely with a live in partner of 7 years and we’re both feeling a lack of fulfillment. I work remotely, they work in an office.

Sure the pandemic might have had some play here but I don’t think it’s because we’re not in an office so much as these last few years have put things like “work” into perspective.

jedberg
1 replies
21h43m

Interesting, thank you for offering your POV, and changing mine.

happyjack
0 replies
20h15m

I liked your office / partner comment; I think there's a lot of truth in that.

I think a lot of people are really worn out. We have endless scrolling, tons of wars in the world, people are indebted, and realistically it doesn't matter how much you work; it's all unaffordable and many are losing hope.

I think the first world needs a large structural change. Government, capitalism, the whole nine yards. I think a lot of people are seeing the bullshit from the left and right and saying to themselves "surely I'm not the only one who thinks something is wrong."

bradley13
3 replies
20h50m

Sometime in my late 40s I got really tired of learning the "next great thing" only to realize that some young developers had reinvented the wheel. Again.

Since then, I have learned new things, but not because they were "relevant" or "important", bit just because they were fun.

Python is a crappy language, and always has been. It's just a happy accident that the ML folks glommed in to it. Most frameworks suck, seriously, they are awful, victims of their own success.

Learn a clean, new language. Use it to solve AdventOfCode, just for fun. Get back to the fun in programming :-)

the_only_law
2 replies
17h12m

Since then, I have learned new things, but not because they were "relevant" or "important", bit just because they were fun.

How do you maintain a career? I stopped caring about relevant and important and my career suffered for it. I stopped caring about fun because it was either a waste of time or inaccessible.

jasonm23
0 replies
16h19m

find balance, it's not all or nothing.

granshaw
0 replies
12h49m

This is what I hate about this industry at this point in my life. Just this morning I was fantasizing about being a dentist instead and just be able to work for as long as I like, not worry about ageism, and otherwise live my life, without needing to constantly “keep up”

whamlastxmas
2 replies
22h3m

I have a lot of stuff I want to work on but completely lack the motivation/mental health/physical health to get into a consistent routine that lends itself to me getting these projects done

I'm in my mid 30s and my preference would be to sit on a porch at a cabin in the woods and wittling a spoon next to a fire with a cup of tea. But I need to keep my skills sharp to stay employed so here I am, sitting in guilt over the lack of productivity in my life and living out a tremendously mediocre career making one fourth of what I'd make if I ever applied myself

nlstitch
1 replies
21h23m

I can relate to some aspects. After more than 10 years in IT (Also mid 30s), I sometimes I have the feeling I've seen it all. Another framework, another paradigm.. getting more of those "Oh wait that new thing you seemed to have invented is 99% similar to this old tech from years ago but its now made hipster".

I find myself scanning through news headlines, trying to up my dopamine while doomscrolling YT, but ultimately.. sometimes after I do.. I feel both TMI and empty at the same time. The world seems to have gone crazy with a constant tug-of-war on every single subject known to man. It's extremely tireing, and it makes you want to escape ( to a cabin) indeed.

whamlastxmas
0 replies
2h37m

I thankfully never read news and I didn’t even know about the recent Israeli occupation until like a week after the attacks started. My life is much better for it, you should try it

unoti
2 replies
21h36m

If you're feeling like you're stagnating, here are some ideas to help get you jump started that I've done over the years.

There are a lot of things you can learn that are inherently *fun*. Maybe try learning something that sounds fun and interesting to you! Some examples for myself include things like Ham Radio, how and why radio signals bounce off the atmosphere. Or cooking, figure out how to make the best salsa you've ever had by getting a molcajete and fire roasting some tomatillos and peppers. Or go learn Unreal Engine, and the endless wonders and rabbit holes therein. Or make your own toy programming language, or teach people about programming, or make it a goal to make the best apple pie, or chili, (or insert your favorite food here) that you've ever had. Learn how to make the best margaritas the world has ever seen. Or take up making homemade ice cream. Get into 3d modelling or animation or texturing. Take up dog training, and do agility or dog dancing. Take up camping, hiking, backpacking, cross country skiing, mountain biking. Learn about wilderness survival, or backcountry emergency medicine. Getting certifications can be a fun way to force yourself to learn things you wouldn't otherwise, and my ham radio license and emergency medicine first responder certifications were really fun to get. Learning to draw can be super fun, and easier than you might think (get the book "Drawing with the Right Side of the Brain"). Fitness, take up some form of exercise that sounds fun to you; in my case I did powerlifting. Take the Fastai course and learn to make ML models from scratch. Learn to fly the A10 Warthog in DCS-- they say that if you can do that, you can do anything in simulation gaming. I'd go further than that and say that learning all the content in the FastAI course was easier than attaining a level of mastery with the A10.

People skills: One of the most impactful things I've ever done is take the Masterclass in Negotiation. That and reading the book Nonviolent Communication changed how I think about and deal with people forever. The book on body language, What Every Body is Thinking is very fun and will help make you never be bored in a meeting again. The Like Switch is also pretty great. Together I consider these a pretty fabulous two semester course in dealing with people.

Getting started is always the hardest part. Once you get some momentum on something it gets easier. A lot of these things can be combined, like you can listen to tutorials about how to fly the A10 while you're out walking.

vladgur
1 replies
21h31m

Without any sarcasm, Thank you for providing a handful of ideas to make learning great again.

Specifically very little can be more fulfilling than an ability to save another human.

I’ll look into emergency medicine certificate

jrnichols
0 replies
12h55m

depending on where you are, at least a CPR class and Stop The Bleed. :)

smeej
2 replies
22h9m

I recently realized everything else I'd ever worked on amounted to nothing, because I had never figured out how to be someone. (I was something to someone growing up, but someone who still doesn't know other people are also someones.)

So I'm working on becoming someone. That's a combination of figuring out what things are just given in my life--that I am or I like or I want unprompted, naturally--and what things I choose, where I'll actually make an assessment from my values and apply my will and effort to making a change.

Hopefully once I do this, I'll be able to be someone who works on something, instead of living the remainder of my life afraid of the responsibility, and continuing to be no one working on nothing.

whamlastxmas
1 replies
21h55m

Be someone to people you care about and are close to. Don't worry about trying to be a person that has a wikipedia page.

smeej
0 replies
21h45m

Oh yeah. Couldn't care less about that.

I mean it several levels back from that, being a subject in my own story rather than merely an object in anyone else's, being someone who has an identity and makes decisions and engages other people as a person in my own right.

I wasn't anybody even to myself, which is why I couldn't ever do anything. I could be used by people to do their things, but I wasn't an agent even in my own life.

myself248
2 replies
22h8m

Are you 35-45-ish? Ask your doctor to check your hormone levels. This sounds SUPER familiar, and therapy ain't gonna patch the leak if the lugnuts aren't even holding the wheel on.

whamlastxmas
0 replies
21h53m

Worth noting that most doctors think very low testosterone levels are "fine" because they're "in range", which basically means you're not going to, like, die tomorrow from it. Research what healthy levels actually are where you feel good and healthy. It's significantly higher than the lowest acceptable test range.

bsdpufferfish
0 replies
21h35m

Strange that both options you mentioned are professional services.

dharmab
2 replies
23h16m

I'm currently working on nothing outside of work due to an illness.

I hate it. I was halfway through dissembling my project car's engine for some upgrades and was hoping to get started on a bathroom demo for a remodel, and that's all been delayed.

I'm also not really working on any tech right now, because for the most part, I've gotten my personal technology working how I like it. I have a spare PC I've been meaning to turn into a home theater device but I'm more motivated to work on the car.

DANmode
1 replies
20h1m

Are you willing to share the class of illness? That's awful to hear...

dharmab
0 replies
15h30m

It's a recovery from a respiratory illness that has made it difficult to do any work for more than about 45 minutes at a time.

cedws
2 replies
20h45m

Yes. I quit my job in September, haven't really produced anything since despite having a lot of free time on my hands. I find the software space to be very uninspiring at the moment; everything that's going on is LLMs and crappy LLM wrapper startups. In all my years of HN surfing addiction, the last 6 months have been the most boring, but maybe that's just me.

sys_64738
0 replies
20h19m

This AI contortion is just mega-boring with lots of money being thrown as everybody thinks they need to do something - anything.

artemonster
0 replies
19h34m

Oh, look, this blockchain technology will be a major transformer for so many industries, finance will NEVER be the same, there are 100 of startups revolutionizing everything on blockchain NOW. ... ah, nevermind, its VR and metaverse that are changing everything! join us in our hustles to build new meta experience that would change shopping and social interaction forever!! ... ah, nevermind, do you want a stupid chatbot in your application that doesnt require one?

in 2 years there will be another "next big thing", just ignore that noise and do whatever you want to do.

brainless
2 replies
20h40m

This is such an interesting thread and I feel I should share my story since it's on the other end of the spectrum.

I had a poor relationship with work about a decade ago. I struggled with very bad health, both physical and mental. I went through a slow journey of recovery that made me unplug from work a lot. I traveled quite a bit, cheap backpacking. I invested in friendships, good food, and very simple life.

In the last couple years I have moved to a village in eastern Himalayas. I gained my anchor: nature. I started a co-living hostel here. I started working in software again but I have no expectations of a traditional career. My passion came back slowly. I have been able to invest in learning new languages, create passion projects, do daily physical chores of running a nomad space.

I have even started learning drums. I have kept investing in people, learning how to build bonds. I also feed animals around me daily. Now I have come around to finally focus on software work full-time again. I'm building a product, but without big financial expectations. I realise this isn't standard, but: software product is about impact to me, not about becoming rich. And I'm deeply content with this.

I have been inspired a lot by Pieter Levels, the founder of nomadlist and have even connected on how I wanted to build things like him. For me, I feel I'm here now since building is not about making tons of money to me. I haven't had as much fun writing code daily as in the last couple years. And I'm 40 years old. Hope it helps.

brainless
1 replies
20h36m

I'm sorry, as I'm typing on mobile, my reply isn't the most structured.

I want to add an important thing: since I unplugged from the money expectations in the last few years, I have been able to simply do nothing whenever I wanted to. Like literally just sit and stare. Or maybe play DotA 2. Hours of games...

I have a privilege, I don't have much financial liability so I can unplug easily. But this is what allowed me to heal.

granshaw
0 replies
17h5m

Bingo, exactly per my thoughts here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38986460

Swizec
2 replies
23h12m

I’ve always liked Viktor Frankl’s take on this:

There is no meaning. But humans need meaning. Create your own! Absolutely anything will do as long as you find it meaningful. Just pick a goal/meaning and go for it. It’s okay to change what you find meaningful as you go through life.

cmehdy
0 replies
21h27m

This is also in some way where Camus ended up.

I've faced a beginning of life pretty loaded in trauma, and a young adult life where self-inflicting some more was a comforting behaviour in the face of the absurdity of life. When contemplating suicide up close, in some of the aftermath I saw Camus' thesis as a pretty decent way to figure out some sort of "philosophy of continuing to exist".

https://bigthink.com/personal-growth/the-meaning-of-life-alb...

avensec
0 replies
21h58m

I was in a similar introspective state of my life when someone recommended "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor E. Frankl. To anyone reading the comment wanting more, I'd recommend the book. The audiobook is only 4h 45m.

senju
1 replies
22h16m

Here. I'm just lazy. An excuse I tell myself is ehh that probably has no monetary future so I just don't do it, but its probably just laziness.

justanotherjoe
0 replies
15h46m

The worst thing about laziness is how everyone is against the idea. Hey, you have 1 guy in me who sees that as justifiable and valid expression.

rubicon33
1 replies
21h2m

Great question & post!

I am definitely working on nothing (outside of my normal day job, of course).

I used to work a normal day job and then in the evenings and weekends work furiously on side projects. One of those side projects became a business that while still around today, is probably getting shut down this year due to failure to generate revenue that exceeds its relatively minimal costs. In other words, the business failed.

That business failing despite 3+ years of nights and weekends, and a significant chunk of my own money, is ONE reason why I struggle to find enthusiasm for new projects.

Another reason is something similar to yours which is that I am focusing on myself more these days. Mind, body, and spirit. I am taking more time to focus on things I enjoy rather than embracing a constant feeling that I need to do MORE. I work my day job and I try to be an excellent contributor there, but I've accepted that it doesn't seem like my path in life is going to be a tech entrepreneur. I just don't have what it takes to build something truly novel and unique enough to drive revenue, nor do I have the marketing and personal skills required to take something mediocre and generate sales.

That might sound like I'm giving up, and to a degree it is, but its more like I'm accepting reality. I don't think I was meant for that life and I'm learning to be ok with it. That means dropping all the side projects and constant hustle and just embracing life. Spending more time with family, working out more, and generally just chilling for a while (it's been a couple years).

At times this manifests as a mid life crisis where I worry that my time is running out and that I haven't accomplished my goals. I'm learning how to recognize these emotions and let them pass without disturbing me too much. It's definitely a skill and one that I am by no means an expert at.

On that note it's also worth pointing out that many of these feelings are common to people in their mid 30s. It's a time where I'm learning to re-evaluate what is important to me. I've accomplished a lot of my goals, and accepted some were foolhardy. Now I find that I should just learn to live well and appreciate what I have and who I am, rather than focusing on what I don't have, and who I am not.

pillefitz
0 replies
9h26m

I believe it's freeing to try, fail, and eventually exclude life paths and gain a new focus and understanding of what's next.

I don't know anything about your project, please ignore if I'm off the mark. But is it possible you spend time building something without validating it's a solution people actually need and pay for? It's very difficult to do because you have to face feedback technology doesn't provide. On the other hand, few people focus on validation first. At least I don't, because it's quite tedious and I don't typically work on side projects with the intention to make money.

perlgeek
1 replies
23h14m

I used to have one or more side projects going on all the time.

With work and family, I currently don't really have the energy to make consistent progress, so instead I do very small things, mostly not software.

Like, baking a sourdough bread usually spans two days, with not too much work on each of these days. Will it be The Next Big Thing? Well, only at our next meal :-)

That's the scope of projects I can manage these days.

And that's totally fine, the world cannot sustain the same number of Big Things as there are people, so I'm fine with most of us never having one, including me.

namuol
0 replies
21h43m

Cooking and baking have replaced a lot of the hobby time I spent on software side projects over the last few years.

The best part about it is that you can share it with almost anyone and they’re going to appreciate it, which is hardly true of most software.

nprateem
1 replies
22h1m

Basically nothing but yoga for the last 3 months. Seems like the only thing worth doing. Every book on proper yoga/enlightenment says it's the way to lasting fulfilment. So I'm prioritising myself at the moment. I even pulled out of a £350k job to do this. Time to get the big thing on my bucket list ticked off.

coolThingsFirst
0 replies
16h53m

What role did you have lol?

ilrwbwrkhv
1 replies
11h26m

I just want to say that if you get a chance, go to the underbelly of the tech world like the hacking / piracy / emulator forums and scenes.

Tech has been made into this sanitized version of what tech was when we were growing up (over 30 folks) and I think it needs to be discovered because so much of our current experience with tech has been this pale, tasteless, flat designed pasty.

But the joy a lot of us felt with tech because we could tinker and hack things to our heart's content still exists. It just requires a bit more effort to find it these days. And those communities I mentioned up above are the easiest entry points to that whole world.

But the commercialized tech world of the Leetcodes and the Faangs, ya that will make the brightest eyed techie jaded in 10 yrs.

antfarm
0 replies
2h43m

so much of our current experience with tech has been this pale, tasteless, flat designed pasty

So true. Just look at what became of Apple Computers, from the “bicycle for the mind” to lifestyle products for the consumption of social media.

bitzun
1 replies
23h24m

I like working on (relatively) nothing. I quit working a few months ago and now I don't want to go back. I've spent these months reading books about everything, working out, playing with hobbies and relaxing. The experience has reinforced for me that I don't want kids, I don't need any "lasting" legacy or any greater career success, and I want to work only enough that I can avoid it as much as I can. I want to learn everything, but I don't want to be compelled to employ that knowledge for "success".

granshaw
0 replies
12h53m

Glad for you that you found this clarity

Muromec
1 replies
19h51m

I'm doing boring stuff. Forms with 5 to 20 fields that people put data into. Nothing AI, not a startup, regulated industry, kind of slow, low stress. I can focus on delivering on quality, I close laptop at 5pm and do other stuff. I feel that it's valuable to society to have this basic stuff not in a half-broken state, I enjoy the people around -- no tech bros with inflated egos or anything.

selimthegrim
0 replies
16h33m

#bogatyrlife

Moto7451
1 replies
23h17m

I have a six month old and have dealt with two people dying in the past three years including handling their estates. I’m lucky I have time to learn anything at work.

molly0
0 replies
22h11m

Hope you are doing okay, stay strong.

washadjeffmad
0 replies
5h8m

Well, this all resonates. I'm in the middle of a big life transition, and while re-evaluating how I got where I am and why I took on certain roles, I found I'm not as beholden to my trajectory as I felt.

I'm ready to bundle up everything I've spent the past twenty odd years doing and turn it into just a other stepping stone of a long and interesting journey.

tomNth
0 replies
23h10m

I'm working on nothing. I'm making great progress, I have a whole lot of nothing !

t0mislav
0 replies
20h46m

Yeah. Very similar story on my side.

I slowed down a lot, both at my job and with side projects. And you know what, Earth is still spinning!

Kids are here now, working on myself, trying to figure out things, be happier. Etc.

slowhadoken
0 replies
23h10m

I’m inquisitive so I keep my eye on the regular stream of hype and trends to find what’s actually good. My focus is math and computer science. Most of my mind is in the theoretical and pops up occasionally to do brief soul searching and give people advice. I don’t care about careers.

slotrans
0 replies
15m

Not exactly, but close.

When the pandemic hit, my big outlet at the time was rock climbing, mostly indoors. That went from "3 days a week" to "zero" immediately, and when things opened back up it just never recovered for me.

I started spending more time and mental energy on software, even though that's my day job. I've been at this for nearly 19 years and I really care about doing it well. The problem is that seemingly no one else does. I've bounced from company to company (7 jobs since 2019) and they've all been nearly wall-to-wall incompetence. It's just baffling how the industry can be in such dramatically worse shape than when I started in it.

Anyway I have been working on a few things, but just for myself. If my employers don't care about doing anything right I guess that's their problem, but I have problems of my own I'd like to solve.

I wrote a SQL formatter, just for myself, because all the ones out there are terrible. I don't care one tiny little bit if it ever has any users but me. It's not "done" (never will be) but it's stable, and I get to use it now, and I enjoyed writing it over 2 years or so. It has been a purely positive presence in my life, and continues to be.

Now I'm working on a SQL IDE, because again the stuff out there sucks. It will be weird, and built just for me and the way I work. I doubt anyone else will ever use it and I don't care. It will probably take me much more than 2 years to write and that's fine. I try to spend 2 hours a week on it, sipping a coffee in my favorite cafe. That's enough.

And lately, for [reasons], I've gotten back into [politically incorrect hobby]. I gave it up in 2015 for [other reasons] and I've missed it. It has such depth to it, and it just animates my curiosity and drive for mastery. Once upon a time it was what my life-outside-of-work was dedicated to and it can be that again if I want.

I still think about work sometimes on my own time, but I try to minimize it. I let it happen when it's what my brain really wants to do. Otherwise there's just no return on investment. Software companies that will hire me just don't care to leverage my skills, no matter how badly they need them, so I'm sick of fighting for it. If they want to choose failure I'll heat up some popcorn and watch. Maybe someday I'll get a chance to really work on something good again, with good coworkers who also give a shit, but I'm not holding my breath. Until then I'm just gonna do my own thing. No leetcoding. No cloud certifications. No home k8s lab. Fuck all that shit.

Best of luck to you, I really mean that.

sjfjsjdjwvwvc
0 replies
23h24m

Working on yourself / mental health is not working on nothing - it’s probably the most important, hardest and rewarding work you can do apart from recreational work. Recreational work is all the work that is required for everything to function but that doesn’t produce anything- think of cooking, cleaning, childcare, elderly care etc. - you know all the work that traditionally is/was “women’s work”

I have come to value “productive work” much less than recreational. We have enough stuff already to last a dozen lifetimes.

Just think that the brightest minds of our generation are working on making people click more ads. And then be thankful that you are not in the same boat and OK with not being productive at all.

shove
0 replies
22h43m

Hell yeah. Find your slack. Long live Bob and the church of the subgenious.

shadowfoxx
0 replies
22h48m

I don't think its possible to be working on 'absolutely nothing'. I think you'll find that if you really explore this idea that you can almost always go further. For example. Do you clean your house? Maintenance is something. The status quo is something and it need to be maintained to exist. I think you recognize this because you admit that you're working on yourself.

The only time I think you could truly do nothing is when you've passed.

I would say I was in a similar place - Wake up, Go to work, come home, watch youtube, sleep, repeat; I had projects I was interested in but couldn't bring myself to do them. For me, part of the answer was changing my environment, the people I was with, the culture was to chill because you're exhausted from work. Another part was, like you're doing now, working on yourself. Another, specific part of working on myself was taking inventory of the things I 'valued'. Did I truly still value those things or were they things from my youth that I am clinging to? Do I value them because I authentically value them or is it because culturally they are valued? Am I applying those cultural valued to places that matter to me. For example: "Hard work". I do value hard work, but the places I was applying that value did not provide return on the investment. So now I apply 'hard work' elsewhere.

I think it is both necessary and good to do this from time to time. Good luck on this journey.

serial_dev
0 replies
21h33m

Kind of?

I became a dad last summer and we also bought a house. My 9-5 takes a lot out of me, there is always something to work on at our house, building furniture, chopping wood, groceries, and the baby needs constant attention. Luckily, I'm relatively happy at my job, not too many meetings, I'm free to work whenever I can, and I like the company, my team, the technology, and the service we provide our customers.

However, I wish I could spend more time tinkering on software and tech stuff I care about.

I'm not in the "nothing matters" group, I know that nobody will care about my open source packages when I die, that's not why I'm doing it. I do it because I find software development and technology interesting, and I genuinely enjoy coding in my (though now very limited) free time.

On the other hand, I try not to consume too much content, as it would make me feel unproductive, but in reality, I just need to do different things at this point in my life. With my current schedule, I had to recognize and accept that I can't read 1 book a week, I ain't doing 10 leetcode questions a day, I won't be a FAANG YouTuber, I probably will never build a startup. I can, however, read twenty minutes before going to sleep, and spend 2-3 hours a week learning something new and exciting, while enjoying my time with my family.

seer
0 replies
22h2m

To be honest I was in a similar place last few years, professional development was pushed to the back seat somehow, nothing was interesting to me. But then I started doing stuff for me personally - got a sail skipper license, a motorbike license - traveled the world. But after a year of having fun, I have to say I’m quite happy getting back to the industry.

I think maybe it’s because I’m getting into health tech, and that feels slightly more meaningful. Also FHIR turned out to satisfy my lust for exploring complex systems quite a lot. We’ll see how it goes, but my advice to all burned out hackers is to get a sabbatical - like a year or so - code what you like, travel the world, tinker with hardware, join a ngo, stuff like that, time does heal all wounds.

sandos
0 replies
20h53m

I was doing constant things in my spare time until I had kids.

I mean, I still do, just not a lot of it involves learning something technical. Controlling a hoverboard motor is maybe the biggest hobby project I have, other than that its been MTB:ing, working out, and lately I got the genealogy bug. And I realized that for some reason I love that kind of work. I remember being 4 years old or so, and being fascinated with phone books! I mean really, really fascinated over all the names, and all the people they represented.

rosencrantz
0 replies
21h26m

I read a book from 1960 about Quantum Mechanics. There is more content from one paragraph there than from anything from your AppleTV, your Facebook, your WhatsApp, your Telegram or anything else from your stupid overpriced trash media. Ken Thompson is right when he calls Apple an atrocity. Linux and Framasoft are not terrorist organisations but I'm not sure about any other.

rjcrystal
0 replies
9h30m

I've been the software engineering game for the last 8+ and this is the best lesson I've learned in the past two years, been facing lot of health issues due to my workoholic nature and ignoring my physical health. Somehow my mental health has been good due to the support systems I have in my life and I'm super grateful for that.

Having a balanced life is my biggest goal right now as other carrer related things are mostly on auto pilot mode. I have a system set for that.

revskill
0 replies
16h45m

It's your problem with not finding out the problem you want to solve.

rendx
0 replies
23h28m

Same! I took a break from my job. A couple of years ago. My new full-time engagement is myself, and it's one of the most challenging and exhausting and fulfilling jobs I've ever had. Sometimes I catch myself "wanting" to go back to the "less complex" version of myself, but there's no turning back now, and it only takes a few minutes to realize I wouldn't want to go back anyway. ;)

reify
0 replies
7h42m

A common theme here in this modern self and business driven world.

We are human beings not human doings.

Doing nothing is the most wonderful thing.

It is a place where new ideas and innovations come from.

I have always found that space to be a place of change, either in personality or the beginning of a new developmental stage. The old self changing the old life to meet my new demands of a new life. What we seek as teenegers is not same as when we are in our 30's, 40's or 50's.

However, the anxiety is unbearable in that space, hence we are continually seeking and doing things, anything to reduce the existential anxiety of just being.

Everyone? Who is everyone, do you not mean you? Own it and all you say. Not everyone is busy building and learning for the next big thing. You are or have been and still are. Own it. "I am so busy building and learning for the next big thing."

Those things are not out there they are in here. They are yours and it is your life.

Life is monotonous and unchallenging.

looking inside and working on ones self is always the beginning

Working on personal issues can only be a priority.

Creating a healthy balance, for me, is just business speak for keeping 50% of your focus on meaningless things. A real healthy balance is committing 100% to yourself

readthenotes1
0 replies
23h18m

I'm working on nothing. It is ok to give up the external validation of doing something, and I've found live much more livable.

"Evil comes from a man's inability to sit quietly in his own chair."

primitivesuave
0 replies
22h19m

I can completely relate to this, and was in a similar place not too long ago. My personal recommendation would be to check out Vipassana (dhamma.org) - it was a life-changing experience, and the first to actually address some of the mental issues I was facing.

presidentender
0 replies
15h39m

I just shut down my startup (we raised a huge seed and we weren't gonna find product market fit with the original thesis; pivoting madly would have been a poor way to justify our valuation).

I am doing standup comedy and blacksmithing until I get bored. I thought it was gonna take longer than it seems like it will. But for now I'm not writing any code or doing any customer interviews.

poulsbohemian
0 replies
22h16m

Without turning this post into a book, I think what you are feeling is very normal, and perhaps even a healthy moment of reflection. If you consider time to be the single most precious resource, then perhaps you can figure out how you want to use it. If that's in bacchanalian and hedonistic pursuits, then great. If that's in self-discovery, great. Maybe on your path you'll find therapy or diet or exercise or hobbies or meds will bring renewal. My guess would be at some point you will find something that sparks renewed interest and you'll find the balance.

ponderings
0 replies
22h48m

My idea is to work on small toy things I can finish in uhh 30 minutes, a day, a week, 30 years etc Ponder the big problems in life, read up what was done to progress the progress sufficiently to be able to participate in attempting to solve the puzzle. Look where others didn't look. Eventually you find a problem that fits your ability. This could be a small problem that takes 5 years to complete or a big problem that takes 1 day once you know how to do it.

Sometimes you just have to try stuff. Without going into details my 2 most stupid ideas turned out to be completely hilarious and unlike anything one could imagine in advance.

Enjoy the process not the results.

ploum
0 replies
23h28m

I’m working on a lot of things which, when I think about it, are all related to the "smolnet/smallweb". (offpunk, mainly, but also other email/gemini/blog related stuff).

It is funny because it seems that I’m now always looking for "the next small thing" instead of the "the next big thing" ;-)

personjerry
0 replies
22h10m

Im going to antarctica next week because I want to, it's the 7th out of 7 continents :)

I don't really need another reason

Slowly been wandering through latin america until I ended up here

Doesn't mean I don't look for opportunities, in fact I still hack at projects, apply for stuff like YC

But there's no rush even if they don't succeed, I have some savings

om154
0 replies
23h14m

I feel less hopelessness, but I’m also just working on myself. Getting into a routine, cooking, working out, making tomorrow better. Work can come next.

npteljes
0 replies
6h24m

After reading your title, I wanted to comment the same as you last paragraph: that I'm working on getting my shit together. I liked to worked on tech, and I didn't like to take care of other things, so if you look around in my life's garden, it's all overgrowth, mold, rot, and walls so that this all doesn't get to me. Adding more tech, or working on yet another something else won't help this situation, but it would need a lot of energy from me, so I don't do it.

What I did in my work so that it supports me on the journey is that I moved from software engineer to lower management. Lots of new types of problems, and lots of new ways to me to connect to people and tech.

Often, I came to think, new is not the answer. Rather it's something that I distracted myself with.

Extra energy also doesn't come by introducing more energy to the system. I also use the max already. The effort is better spent in conserving it, and building a system where it recharges faster.

namuol
0 replies
21h53m

I’ve been adjusting to a new chronic illness and have found that I need to save my “health days” for work, exercise, and friends/family.

I still sometimes find myself feeling good during time off without any plans, but I have learned that I can’t really pick up projects that I know will take more than a couple days of focus to complete.

If I find myself longing for more work or bigger projects, it usually means I’ve been in a long span of feeling well, which means I should just go outside or be with people anyway. Work usually fills that void very quickly, too…

meristohm
0 replies
14h47m

Like you, I'm working on understanding myself; my drives, reactions, relationships, emotions. I'm reading more nonfiction in an effort to understand where humanity has been and where we might go. A hunter-gatherer/semi-nomadic lifestyle is appealing (it would not be easy at first, even given enough healthy land & water), and building/strengthening community, instead of silo-ing, is something we can all practice now. I've gotten to know so many of my neighbors, and I try not to exclude anyone with politics different from mine; we're all in this together, and we all have so much in common.

mattgreenrocks
0 replies
20h31m

For most of human history seasons have dictated what we can and can’t do. I believe there’s an emotional and physical component to seasons that we can either respect, or push back against.

Which means there’s going to be seasons that are quite productive. And seasons of grief and pain. And seasons to focus on self growth. Once I accepted this it got a bit easier to stop beating myself up about these things.

lannisterstark
0 replies
17h45m

If not, why not?

Burnt out, trying to get into this. Why do you think lol

kunalgupta
0 replies
22h13m

I’m not in the same place, but I do find it still surprising at age 40 you can flail around randomly in a city and discover entirely new areas of life that fully captivate your interest. The other day someone invited me to join a math club and now it’s my favorite part of my week. I hadn’t thought about math since I was 15. but that’s example one of dozens. not that anyone’s asking, but I think if anyone isn’t feeling satisfied they can easily try very random things and find some satisfaction and that’s what I would recommend

kevinsync
0 replies
22h3m

If by "everyone" you mean "people I see on the internet", you're only seeing them because they desperately want / need you to see them, and your perception of their accomplishments is their currency.

If you mean people you encounter in real life (and they aren't inner-circle), they likely are just saying something, ANYTHING, to either just make conversation or give themselves confirmation that they exist and that they're valid. We're human, after all.

Just try to take it all with a grain of salt. There's no "correct path" in life. You get to define what success and happiness means for you, and you'll also never find a shortage of people who will tell you you're wrong lol -- but the most-free people in the world are those who unapologetically just "are".

Be your authentic self, dude -- do nothing, do something, who gives a shit!

Life can't pass you by if you spend it truly enjoying whatever it is that gets you off (even if that's "nothing")

kelnos
0 replies
22h0m

Not right now, but I was in that place during probably the final 2 years at my previous job. It's hard to say if that was primarily due to the job itself (I was there for a little over 10 years, but by year 8 or so I was becoming disillusioned with the company and felt like I wasn't doing much new or novel) or the pandemic (for reasons that should hopefully be obvious!). And I did have a few spurts of creativity/wanting-to-learn during that time, but they only lasted 4-6 weeks at a time, at best.

The job dissatisfaction translated to burnout. The pandemic stuff was I guess a different kind of burnout that I'd never experienced before, combined with mild depression over the isolation (fortunately my partner and I lived together; I can't imagine what people living alone had to go through) and inability do do most of the normal things I loved to do.

I think it's useful to really examine how you feel (possibly with the help of a therapist, but you can do a lot of this mental/emotional work on your own if that's not your thing) to try to determine if these feelings are coming from a true belief that this career/hobby path simply is no longer for you, or if it's more that there are some current conditions in your life that have temporarily made you feel this way. I've experienced various levels of burnout throughout my career and life, and I know during those periods I was very negative about continuing with what I was doing longer term. But ultimately I still love software, and still love building things with software, and I'm glad I haven't abandoned it entirely.

Taking a break -- consciously, without putting pressure on ourselves to do something, anything -- is I think the bare minimum to getting past feelings of burnout, if that is what it is. Sometimes that alone works. But sometimes you may need a new job with fresh people and challenges as well.

Regardless, I think it's important to understand and acknowledge that there is nothing wrong with you. This is an unfortunately normal thing that happens sometimes, when things aren't going well for a sustained period of time. There is a way out, either to find joy in what you're doing again, or to decide that you want to find something else to do with your life and time.

joshcsimmons
0 replies
16h8m

These things come in seasons. Definitely good to take a beat and focus on yourself. You phrase it like it's permanent though.

I've certainly had times where I don't work on anything outside of work. Other times I have multiple side projects. I'm always doing it out of self love though whether its self care or projects! That's what's key.

jessehorne
0 replies
22h19m

I resonate a lot with this but I think it's against my will that I feel lost. I've started little projects like 48hr.dev to try to help me just build more and to collaborate with people in the same spot. I have friends building these incredible saas apps or stuff to help in scientific research, or just really cool side projects but I struggle to find ideas that are valuable to people. I don't lack motivation or interest I just lack the luck or either skills to find (and have faith in) solid ideas.

itsgrimetime
0 replies
23h10m

I think it’s super normal to have fluctuations in your interests and curiosities. Life would be pretty boring if we did the same thing for its entirety. I also think that focusing on yourself is something that always pays off - and will likely give you more mental and emotional capacity long term. Whenever I have periods like that I find my curiosity and drive comes back naturally if I’m patient and don’t try to force it.

interbased
0 replies
21h16m

I often feel stagnant and like I should be "doing something". I've come to realize that the best way so far, for me, to add more fulfilling content in my life, is to meditate on what I actually want out of my life. What makes me excited? What gives me a reason to wake up in the morning? I started journaling this year, and it has forced me to record my thoughts and think about the answers to these question. Once I understand the goals that I have and what kind of life/environment I want for myself, I come up with action steps to lead my life in that direction. Whether it be taking a class, attending a type of social gathering every week, committing myself to sharpening a new skill, I follow it like a quest guide in a video game.

icedchai
0 replies
13h59m

I've been in a bit of a funk since the beginning of the pandemic. The last "good" year for me was 2019. Since then, there's been a failed startup, several mediocre work-at-home jobs, and failed relationships. I'm not sure if it's burn out or something more. I'm mostly just treading water in several areas.

iancmceachern
0 replies
21h55m

This is me. I've been working on my hardware design and engineering skills for 20 years, in the last I stopped trying to focus on progressing that and just focus on progressing me, my relationships (including with myself), and learning to market myself better and more genuinely. In learning about marketing I've learned a lot about human nature, and manipulation of such, and I've learned to recognize how marketing and soceity in general manipulates us in ways I was previously unaware of. Learning this alternate skillset really opened my eyes up to the broader world and has really broadened my horizons.

iamwpj
0 replies
23h6m

I had a period like this, I even stopped playing some games because it just was there anymore. My wife and I took a long road trip in 2021 and it gave me time to be peaceful (national parks helped a lot with this). I started grad school in 2022, it has really helped me with perspective and forces me to engage in my interests when other things are often easier. There’s drawbacks, but overall I’m happy to have motivation. In short: try something new!

hoerzu
0 replies
7h26m

Such a depressing post with so much resonance. Rule number 1 of freelancing or having a job with mental workload: Priority number 1 is to play the long term game and not let burn out kill passion.

geraldtan
0 replies
10h43m

This period of doing nothing is termed the "neutral zone" by Ritvik Carvalho (^1).

"We need not feel defensive about this apparently unproductive time-out at turning points in our lives, for the neutral zone is meant to be a moratorium from the conventional activity of our everyday existence. In the apparently aimless activity of our time alone, we are doing important inner business.", Transitions by William Bridges.

Your post resonated with me deeply. I quit my job in April 2023 to spend 2 years doing nothing "productive". Although I was doing well at work, I lost the hustle. The flame of curiosity seemed to have gone out. I wondered what happened to my past self who was constantly preoccupied with different interests and hobbies.

I thought that traveling would give me some fulfillment. Yet, traveling for the past 7 months left me unfulfilled. I realized the real journey was inward: rediscovering my passions and interests. It's difficult to do that while carrying baggage from your current job.

Here's some further reading below if you're interested. Don't hesitate to reach out, I'm curious to learn what you've done to rediscover your interests and curiosities, and I'm more than happy to share my learnings.

1) https://ritvikcarvalho.substack.com/p/career-transitions-and...

2) The Pathless Path by Paul Millerd

3) https://arc.net/l/quote/qmbdiccg

fwungy
0 replies
19h16m

I advise microdosing to people struggling with depressive or nihilistic mindsets. Microdosing gives me the boost I need to actually work on improving things. It's also virtually free and has no dangerous side effects.

fruktmix
0 replies
19h4m

If you're lacking motivation or inspiration, the best thing is to do something new everyday. That will in turn make you more motivated and inspired.

flatline
0 replies
23h17m

I am working on relocating to an area that will afford me more personal and professional opportunities in the future. I have been writing software professionally for over 20 years and there is not much left there to captivate me, so I’ve refocused my professional efforts towards softer skills. I spend a lot of my day talking to people, organizing schedules, planning, networking, writing proposals. Much like you, working on myself.

firefoxd
0 replies
23h5m

I was working on too many projects at the same time. Including a startup, a book, a blog, and pitching for a movie.

Along the way, I got married and slowed down a bit. Then i got twins. I couldn't work on my own stuff even if I wanted to. When covid hit I published a short story that I had been working on for 7 years just to say I did something.

Now I occasionally blog, and edit a paragraph or two of my book every week. I don't feel bad about it. The most important thing I want to reflect upon when I'm old, is my family.

epiccoleman
0 replies
21h36m

I'm not working on engineering/programming related stuff right now, but I did start the year with a resolution to write some more music - been playing guitar for nearly 20 years now, but most of my playing is just looping a few chords and noodling over it. Which is fun! But I would like to actually get some songs done. Not for any particular reason, just seems fun.

I try to just sort of follow my interests in my free time instead of optimizing it or trying to find some "side hustle." Sometimes I'll be fiddling around with programming related stuff, sometimes its music, sometimes I get into a game for a while. Last summer it was (kind of out of left field for me) fishing - just bought a rod and some tackle and started going out.

If there's any antidote for "the hustle" it's fishing - sure, you can spend 1000s on gear if you want, but at the end of the day, you're going to go sit out in nature for a while and some days you just won't get a single bite. The first few times that happened, it bugged me, until I realized that sitting by the water for a couple of hours is a great use of time regardless of whether I see a single fish.

Another thing I like about fishing is it's just active enough that it keeps my mind busy - instead of sitting there worrying about the budget or whatever, I', just thinking "maybe I should try reeling a bit differently" or "maybe I should move down the bank a bit" or "maybe I'll tie on that new lure". It's like perfectly tuned to keep me pleasantly distracted while not being stressful or high-pressure in the least.

My oldest son asked for a kayak this Christmas, and I found a pretty good deal on a pair of fishing-style kayaks from a local guy who was getting rid of his. I'm very much looking forward to trying some kayak fishing this summer, there's so many good looking spots that weren't really accessible from the shore.

Speaking of kids, that's also a great way to pull myself away from the drive to constantly be doing something new and "productive". They keep me busy and while there's times I wish for a little more free time, overall they're a blast. My oldest and middle child are now old enough to game with me - we spent a lot of time over the Christmas break playing through the new Mario game, Mindustry, and even a bit of Fortnite (that's their thing, not mine, but it's something to do).

david_draco
0 replies
23h20m

You can have a lot of output once you stop receiving input for a few days.

danielovichdk
0 replies
19h52m

You have to die a few times before you can really live.

crimbles
0 replies
20h48m

I'm past that stage. I built a business in the 2000's and hosed it completely because I had no idea what I was doing. Then I spent a lot of the 2010's trying to conceptualise and create something I believe in which was similarly futile on the probabilistic scale. I figured at the end of it that it's futile and embarked on a journey of self improvement which devolved in chaos and nihilism.

Now I exist in a world of laughing maniacally at this shit show while raking in the cash from pretending I give a fuck about things like microservices and AngularJS, sleeping through hours of meetings, drinking a hell of a lot of really good wine and spending my spare time travelling all over the world and hooking up with floozies in bars and doing things which my parents would frown about.

Do what makes you happy and fuck everything else. Seriously. Leave no regrets.

Anyway I'm sure the HN community will frown upon this. I know I do :)

crawancon
0 replies
20h47m

I hit a bit of a wall with my main project and just never really moved on. still in limbo.

cowboyscott
0 replies
22h50m

Do what feels right for you, and make sure you're doing that in a way that ethical for those around you and the rest of the world. It sounds like our paths getting there were a bit different, but I also took a significant break from my professional life and disengaged with expectations that were not my own and used that time to deliberately work on my mental health and relationships. Thankfully, I was in a situation where I had the resources to do so (which includes the support of my partner). I quit a nice tech job and spent a year studying a ton of subjects that I loved or thought I'd love, and explored radical shifts in my career. I'm not done yet, but I managed to find the parts of my old work I still enjoy, the parts I don't, and the beginnings of an understanding of how to trade my time for money in a way that I'm comfortable with. I've been easing back into things, and am even finding joy in the things in things that had previously been surefire triggers for emotional spirals (including hackernews!). Anyway, I'm still not settled, and never will be, but I'm content with that for now.

countWSS
0 replies
12h41m

I'd like to start some hobby projects, but only when i have energy and health resources to do it. Doing the bare minimum is default. Besides i doubt investing in something long-term is worth it, except very rare circumstances that don't apply to hobby/work/mundane "skills/knowledge".

cookiengineer
0 replies
10h42m

I am somewhat working on my own workflow. I have a lot of problems with the mental workload of external task and the sheer amount of things that are left to do. For example, having to remind myself to reschedule tasks because I didn't have the time as initially planned is very hard for me.

All other task planners never seem to be made for wrong estimations and the iterative evaluation of underestimated complexities for whatever reason. Nobody can predict the future so why should we be able to plan tasks ahead of time correctly?

Conflicting things in real life are hard to keep track of for me, too - (e.g. having to take your dog to the doctor, buying groceries, or cleaning up the household) and all task planning tools that I have tried never reduce the mental workload for me, because there's still the maintenance part of keeping your whiteboard/calendar up to date once anything goes wrong. And it always does.

That's why I took the last couple days to start to work on my own tool, agenda: the idea for this tool is that the app recommends you what to work on while still being able to keep track of conflicting tasks, with the idea that it adapts over time to your personal missed estimations of how long a task takes.

[1] https://github.com/cookiengineer/agenda

codeptualize
0 replies
23h5m

I am working on something, but that something is myself.

Great way to spend your time. It takes a lot of time and energy so it's not really surprising that there is little bandwidth left to spend on other things. I totally recognize that.

Sometimes boring and steady is good if you need that energy to work on other things, but if you think the "boring" is part of the problem, it might be time to change things up.

If you have the means/access, therapy might be helpful to figure out where these feelings come from and what to do with them.

Everyone seems so busy building or learning the next big thing

I think this is also not per se a realistic view of what's going on. There are plenty of people who do their job and that's it, but you won't see them post about it.

Things are only a problem if you find them problematic. If you are happy doing nothing that's great, if not then you might need to take some action.

I've had times where I did absolutely nothing, now I am building a company haha, things change, lots is possible.

city41
0 replies
22h16m

But not only has my professional life become monotonous and unchallenging

In my 20 years as a developer, I think I can count actually fulfilling moments on one hand. Maybe I'm just really unlucky, but I suspect that professional development isn't very efficient or worthwhile. So many projects get canned, delayed, reworked, death marched, or are just, well, asinine.

Personally, my growth had stunted, especially ever since Covid hit. I was just kind of "existing" and not really doing anything. But lately I've taken on something completely new to me, and wow I'm pretty bad at it. I'm learning so much, and it's fun to see the improvement and "ohhhhhhhhh" moments. So maybe just try something totally different for a while.

charlie0
0 replies
20h13m

A big part of this could just be mild burn out. I find that if I take a long vacation, sooner or later I get bored and get right back to being curious and working on building or learning something. Having said that, I have a harder time finding meaning in side projects now that I'm older.

There's a bit of nihilism in me now, kinda like the koa “If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" If I work on a side project and no one uses it, does it even matter? Learning for the sake of learning has become near meaningless to me.

brailsafe
0 replies
17h14m

I am dabbling with a few code related things, but not very seriously. Mainly what I'm working on is trying to figure out how to approach the next few years. As in, I'm anticipating that I'll be entering what will be the second complete year with no work, and while I'm continuing to maintain the other personal systems that keep me going, I'll need to figure out how to proceed; does it mean fully committing to a new trade, fully committing to an attempt at contracting, fully committing to a general labor job, or whatever else. I don't know what that answer is, but I've been doing effectively nothing but learning and enjoying things on my own accord since being laid off 8 months ago, and that's great, but I don't really see what the next step is yet, and instead of burning myself out grinding through my own projects regardless of my enthusiasm, I'm just taking space to try and get there. Things have truly never looked worse for prospects in my career, and it might be time to quit, or maybe not, or maybe temporarily.

bmitc
0 replies
23h18m

I am working on something, but that something is myself.

I'd say you're working on the right things. Our fellow humans would like to hide behind the idea that any of this matters, but at the end of the day, it doesn't. What does matter to you is yourself and the relationships of people close to you.

blopp99
0 replies
22h11m

I find myself in the same hole but not because of lack of opportunities from peers or life, not because I dont have good ideas or dont know how to excecute them.

I have work mostly all my life working as a freelancer and havent been able to find a workplace that I feel really confortable. That and situations that always seem to happen in the worst possible moment, I found myself in the necesity to make my own company, what do we do? what do we make? software and hardware. anything specific? no im working towards that.

Thank you for your post, feels good to vent a little bit

azangru
0 replies
23h26m

Hmm, my reading of the title was, is anyone working on something that they have a good reason to suspect will turn out to be nothing. I.e. does anyone think they are doing a bullshit job.

I am not sure how one can work on absolutely nothing unless one is happily retired/unemployed.

autotune
0 replies
21h18m

I've been working on two things:

1) method acting

2) being on the run for a $5 taco thief

I am dead serious.

asielen
0 replies
14h44m

I'm working on being a good father, husband and friend.

I have a 3.5yo and another on the way in a couple months. Also my amazing mother-in-law just unexpectedly passed over the holidays so we are all grieving.

Life puts everything in perspective. I have realized that I really don't have anyone but my spouse to really open up to and it is hard. Deep relationships are what I need to work on.

al_borland
0 replies
21h45m

I’m in a similar boat. For me, I think it’s burnout. If I have a week+ off of work, I’ll start to get the itch to start a project, but with work the way it is, I hardly even touch my home computer anymore.

I have a lot of things I started during those weeks off that never really make it off the ground, because the interest falls to 0 the second work starts back up.

_ache_
0 replies
21h59m

g4zj, you are doing the most important thing of your life. Keep doing, I'm pretty sure you are doing great! Keep healthy.

I was actually in a situation similar to you. Lost of interest in learning new stuff, every thing feeling the same as something that I already know, and obviously I was wrong, but it took sometime before I was hocked over a new subject I know little about. Lately, I'm studying Computer Related skills like soundness, proof assistant and automatic proof/solver. It will not have any impact on my IT career, but I never learned anything for my career.

I keep working on myself too.

Waterluvian
0 replies
21h17m

Working on nothing is when I get my best work done. I’m sure there’s science behind it, but I very consistently return to the piano better than when I left off. And all my major code solutions come to me after a few days off.

UltimateEdge
0 replies
23h23m

I have fewer personal software projects going on than I used to (in fact, almost none), and these days I think I spend a lot of the time on unimportant busywork, under the excuse that "organising myself will free me up in the future, when something interesting comes around".

However I also recently quit social media (by this I don't count IRC, HN and the Fediverse as these are mostly text-based - okay to browse in my books), quit soft drinks, quit YouTube (almost, new videos come in through my subscriptions about once a day) and started reading (albeit very slowly) after a multi-year lapse. So it's not all bad.

Tan-Aki
0 replies
3h28m

Simply try to make everything you do about ultimately making the world a better place. It will give you your drive back. Stop thinking "me me me" all the time, but ask yourself "what can I do to help others?" The nuance is that, sometimes, in order to be able to take care of others you have to take care of/work on yourself first (simply keep in mind that you are doing that in order to come back stronger to be able to help others. Never loose sight of the bigger picture). That is what I believe one of, if not The, key to happiness (and therefore to finding your drive again)

SeanAnderson
0 replies
20h44m

I'm working on myself through my work, if that counts?

I'm a staff-level SWE. I took the last year off of paid employment because I felt anxious and stressed even though everything was, objectively, fine. I had some poor health habits that I was staunchly ignoring and a project I was deeply vested in at my job was ripped out from under me. The meaning I ascribed to that project was giving my life purpose and, with that suddenly missing, and with my health in less than ideal shape, my outlook on the world became dismal.

I took the year off because I wanted to try and rediscover that curiosity you mentioned having lost. I used to LOVE programming. I loved feeling like a techno-wizard making pixels bend to my will. What happened? Why did I now feel anxious and uncomfortable staring at a screen while trying to think critically? I think I got a little too lost in the sauce of the startup world and it became clear that it would take some "me time" to rebalance.

So, from some perspectives, I've been doing nothing. No significant other, no money-making job, not travelling the world or living life to the fullest... but having a project that feels meaningful to me, whose existence is moderately under my control, and that I have sufficient time and energy to engage with -- that's giving me most of what I felt was missing. Well, that and dropping a bunch of widely understood bad habits and picking up some better ones.

I want to see myself as a more consistent and reliable person. In my 20s, I had infinite energy. In my 30s, I'm finding that's only true if I keep myself away from alcohol and drugs, exercise constantly, connect with people, and, most importantly, be mindful of my physical and emotional state. If I start slipping into a rut, and don't notice it and nip it in the butt, suddenly it can take over my whole demeanor and disrupt a lot of good things I had going. A couple of days of bad sleep, coupled with a desire to keep pushing forward, can cause me to regress into drinking a bunch of caffeine. The caffeine will mess with my anxiety and mood and I'll be more tempted by unhealthy food and marijuana. These decisions start to take their toll, the effects compound, and suddenly I'm in a destructive cycle where I see myself being less and less each day. I start to hide from myself. All these issues were present in my 20s, but they never really seemed to be a hindrance. I could just roll with the punches and remain proud of my accomplishments. Now, in my mid-thirties, I find myself frustrated (yet a little excited) to try and figure out how to keep myself running like a well-oiled machine. I want to remain proud of my consistent growth into my later years and it's going to require getting better at working with myself.

That said, I know me. I don't do well without a project that I can see myself in. It's what makes getting up in the morning worthwhile. I think it has to do with having an avoidant/dismissive emotional attachment style, or something to that effect. So, if someone were to ask me if I'm working on nothing then I guess I would always want to confidently say, "No. I am working on something, but at my own pace and with poorly-defined goals."

So, in an effort to work on myself, I've given myself a project whose goal is to help me, and others, be more consistent and present. I must admit I've taken the most circuitous route possible to achieving this effect as I'm ostensibly creating a digital ant farm which functions as a mental health companion (https://github.com/MeoMix/symbiants). The goal is to create a pet whose growth fluctuates with its owners' consistency. I want to see my ant colony thrive when I am consistent. When I am feeling good I want to see my ants take on new challenges, expand their territory, stress themselves out trying to maintain growth, build habituated pathways to foods in an attempt to scale. And then, when I invariably go through an emotional downturn, I want to see my ants yield some of their land back to the fog-of-war, hunker down and weather the storm of inconsistent check-ins and less good habits undermining my personal energy. And then, when I've sated my desire for self-destruction and re-commit to being dedicated to my goals, I want to see my ants rediscover forgotten pathways, regain their ground quickly, and act as a reminder that my emotional downturns didn't undo all my personal growth. The habits are still there, hidden in fog, waiting to be rediscovered with a little effort. I want to have this pseudo-living creature that serves as a visual proxy for how well I feel I'm doing.

If anyone feels similarly and could see themselves finding purpose through this effort - feel free to reach out. I would be happy to talk to you and help you find a home in the project. There's Discord and email in my bio. It's my first game, the scope is way too large, the code I've written is bad, and I have no strategy for monetization. You'll very likely become a worse Rust developer by associating with me :) ... but I know I want to create something that helps motivate people to continue showing up for themselves and I'm confident there are others out there who either feel similarly, or feel lost and could use help finding themselves with the right project.

I've written a lot! Sorry for the meandering thoughts and the weird upsell of a project in a thread about working on nothing... but it all seemed relevant to me while the juices were flowing. Cheers :)

Nevin1901
0 replies
14h17m

I'm currently taking a break from working on anything. Just doing the bare minimum to get A's in college, and relaxing the rest of the time. Don't regret it after working so much before.

MilnerRoute
0 replies
23h37m

Sometimes I worry that I'm not doing things because I've finally officially become "burned out."

But I also read an article this week that said "unstructured time" is part of a healthy and relaxing weekend routine.

Either way, I think it's a good idea to make sure you're exercising, getting lots of sleep, and eating healthy, energizing foods.

MattPalmer1086
0 replies
22h57m

I am currently doing nothing.

I've spent several years recently writing various bits of open source software outside work, and trying to get a new search algorithm published in some journal. After several rejections, I stuck it on arXiv, but I think I'm done with it.

I'm not particularly bothered by my lack of drive right now. Sometimes it's good to just enjoy life and kick back. I'm sure something else will come along that I get into eventually.

JohnBrookz
0 replies
12h7m

Surprisingly I’m actually working on projects more. I’m turning 30 this year and my world view has only been affirmed more and more everyday.

Life is a ladder you keep climbing up on. There’s water beneath and it gets higher and higher. I suppose most people are fatalistic in this climb.

I’ve met a few successful business owners and their life isn’t any more secure than mine. We’re all on the ladder unless we have power. Money isn’t power; power is power.

Anyway. I’ve been trying to build a small company with my friend. Just something that will give us some breathing room from climbing.

I sympathize with a lot of you on here though. Technology hasn’t been all that we hoped. In fact- quite the opposite.

Most self aware tech people are tired of the society they helped build and would prefer to live away from it.

Jeremy1026
0 replies
13h53m

Hi. That'd be me. I'm struggling right now and just can't focus on anything. In middle-school I was diagnosed with ADHD and was on meds. I haven't taken meds in 20+ years but in the last couple of weeks I can feel that it's been really hitting really hard.

Jaja_what_else
0 replies
23h3m

I do not want to write about the topic, although it is a deep field. There is something else that makes me write this comment:

There is nobody out there being an expert in his/her field without having also personal interrest. Yet - you say while you had this kind of drive which is key to be one of the best, all you got is luck. I dont think so. You describe the last 5 years as being without any success or fulfillment. This is absolutly impossible over such a long time. Nowadays, you say it is of no fun to you anymore to have this "hobby".

Well, you know which kind of people sound like this? Since i am not an expert, don't get me wrong - but to me it is textbook like depression. Please think about checking it with a pro.. best case is i am wrong.

Havoc
0 replies
17h8m

Been working on a project that interests me but progress is surprisingly slow (think half hour a day baby steps). Almost like I’m procrastinating except as I said I do actually want to do it

Haven’t quite placed where that internal contradiction is coming from.

Normally one procrastinates unpleasant things

EvkoGS
0 replies
21h43m

I've been in the same state this summer. I burnt half of my savings bootstrapping my startup that failed, and gambled the rest 90% on crypto (longing crypto lol, it's 2x since then)... so I spent 2 months lying on the couch, rewatching my favorite movies and sleeping 12 months per day on Prozac. Ended up starting great relationships with my university classmate, it's much more meaningful now.

Creating a product and seeing people loving it brings me the most joy, from my experience.

DontchaKnowit
0 replies
22h59m

Only thing Im working on is learning the lbum "Pollinator" by Cloud Rat on guitar.

That and working on calisthenics.

Im honestly at the point where seeing a computer makes me a little quesy. Im so sick of tech

DANmode
0 replies
20h33m

Yes.

I am taking the appropriate time, now.

For everything.

Still building, but building correctly, and less often, trending-toward-never, at the expense of my health.

CrypticShift
0 replies
23h12m

You can spend unlimited time working on yourself. I see no unhealthy unbalance in that as long as you have no inner need or outer pressure to produce (or you are able to control both).

Personally I find it tricky, though. Am I doing nothing for this long because I am just getting lazy (-> need resolve) or depressed (-> need real help)? It does not seem to be your case, so just take your time. Take your time.

Cacti
0 replies
23h4m

Let me guess, you’re about under 30 and/or without kids, right?

You’re just burnt out. It happens. You’ll be able to recognize it when you go through it a couple times lol

It’s not a big deal but you need to get sleep and exercise and get out of house and away from devices at least once a day for ~3 months.

And then reassess. But you shouldn’t make any decision if you’re depressed and burnt out.

4ndrewl
0 replies
22h56m

Not only am I not working on anything, I'm not even reading HN anymore!

127
0 replies
23h24m

I'm building things that I find fun and interesting, not necessarily for profit. Of course, I have a revenue generator that I'm also keeping up. But mostly just fun these days. Currently that fun thing is building software synths from scratch, just starting from audio callback.