return to table of content

DNS Toys (2022)

account-5
7 replies
6h23m

Can someone ELI5 for the idiot in the thread. I know it's for fun but I don't get it. Also how's it's working? I'm aware it's my ignorance.

themoonisachees
3 replies
5h59m

The DNS protocol is just text over udp. When making a DNS request, your system will open a socket, write "google.com" in it and read for a response. The server, if it is properly configured as a DNS server, will reply with the appropriate DNS record, again as text. Google.com is a cname to some subdomain used for load balancing, so the server will simply reply "CNAME blabla.google.com" and may optionally also resolve blabla.google.com to save you the trouble of making another request.

The DNS protocol, defined in some RFC, says that I have to make a request a certain way, and that the server has to respond a certain way. One of these ways is that for top level domains that don't exist (for ex. .time is not a currently existing tld), the server is supposed to reply nxdomain, but in reality there is no technical measure stopping it from replying with anything it wants, such as the current time.

In fact, generally speaking, the expectation that the server operators will not fuck you over is the only thing preventing public (and indeed private) DNS operators from returning you bogus data. This is mitigated somewhat by HTTPS, but DNS records themselves are infinitely fakeable with no recourse.

NoZebra120vClip
1 replies
1h33m

Your reply is riddled with errors and you don't seem to actually know how the DNS protocol works at all, on the wire or otherwise. It is, firstly, impossible for "google.com" to contain a CNAME record. This would violate standards, and it's simply not done. Query or yourself; there is no CNAME at that label.

Your description of how queries work is not how queries work at all. Your entire comment is a net negative and detracts from the overall knowledge at Hacker News.

jodrellblank
0 replies
13m

"It is, firstly, impossible for "google.com" to contain a CNAME record. This would violate standards, and it's simply not done."

It is possible for an apex domain to contain/be a CNAME, and it simply is done, by many companies: https://serverfault.com/questions/55528/set-root-domain-reco...

denton-scratch
0 replies
42m

DNS is not a text protocol, it's a binary protocol.

sethammons
0 replies
5h58m

Sure, imagine a DNS server as a specialized type of web server, but it uses a different protocol over a different port. Just like you make requests to a web server using HTTP, you can interact with a DNS server using DNS protocols. Think of it like comparing how you might use telnet to simulate an HTTP or SMTP request; it's about communicating with a specific type of server over a specific set of rules. This server tends to do some computation before yielding its results, unlike most DNS records that you'd expect to be static.

input_sh
0 replies
6h1m

You're essentially resolving non-existent domains through their custom DNS server. For example:

    dig 100USD-INR.fx @dns.toys
Translates into "resolve 100USD-INR.fx using dns.toys as a DNS server". They then return TXT records containing the actual answer. Since .fx is a non-existent domain, they're not impersonating anyone, and if you switch "@dns.toys" with say "@8.8.8.8", it wouldn't resolve to anything.

Uptrenda
0 replies
3h11m

Imagine a site like news.ycombinator.com. The browser uses that name to lookup the IP from a specialized server. So for the domain it might have this saved:

A IP = ...1

AAAA IP = ...2

Where 'a' is the type of record. But there are other types of records:

TXT gender = 'male'

So there's a few assumptions here about DNS that are normally true:

1. People are using DNS as a switch board to other services.

2. The values in the switchboard are normally static.

With this setup they're doing something completely different because they're serving back changing values based on the domain. To do this you would need to write a custom DNS server (though the DNS protocol is quite simple.) The reasons this is a clever hack though are as follows:

1. DNS is one of the most widely used and supported protocols. All mainstream programming libraries support it. This includes numerous command-line tools already in operating system. By providing this as a service over DNS it provides an elegant way for command-line tools and libraries to access services with minimal dependencies.

2. It challenges the way the DNS system should be used by tipping the normal assumptions behind its use on its head (direct usage for information, dynamic content for values.) This makes it possible to use DNS directly as an application service rather than as a switch board operator for regular internet services.

3. DNS is so integral that a complex integration wouldn't be needed to add it to existing software. A DNS request is arguably more straight-forwards than a typical web API. Chances are this also has benefits for censorship resistance, too.

All in all a clever hack.

ulrischa
6 replies
9h41m

Nice, but why over DNS? Perhaps I simply didn't get the point.

WanderPanda
3 replies
8h27m

dns clients come preinstalled on virtually any os

anjanb
2 replies
8h2m

what dns clients does one have in windows 8 or windows 10 ?

kemotep
0 replies
7h36m

`nslookup` for a command prompt utility, the `DnsClient` PowerShell module, and the DNS Client graphical utility.

TheNorthman
0 replies
7h37m

`nslookup`

martyvis
0 replies
8h11m

Often passed through firewalls or effectively proxied through resolvers

jenoer
0 replies
9h32m

For fun.

koito17
4 replies
9h54m

This reminds me of a neat little trick I used back then to "reliably" compute IP address of my machines for a dynamic DNS utility I wrote for myself.

OpenDNS resolvers (such as resolver1.opendns.com) will resolve myip.opendns.com to your actual IP address. Whether you get A or AAAA records depends on your connection. Since the IP addresses for these resolvers tend to be anycast IPs, I also want to believe they are marginally faster than pinging some central HTTP service that can go down at any time. (Of course, OpenDNS can vanish at any time, too, but I find the risk of that more tolerable than the countless "what is my IP address?" HTTP services out there)

Anyway, I remember hearing before that DNS originally was intended to be used with a broader scope of data than just domain names (hence the existence of TXT records and the like). This website greatly demonstrates how much utility you can get out of DNS.

kuon
1 replies
6h21m

Google and akamai also has a DNS service.

    dig @ns1-1.akamaitech.net ANY whoami.akamai.net +short


    dig @ns1.google.com TXT o-o.myaddr.l.google.com +short

masfuerte
0 replies
45m

On Windows:

    nslookup whoami.akamai.net ns1-1.akamaitech.net

Uptrenda
1 replies
9h14m

Very nice idea. Seems way simpler than the STUN protocol.

annoyingnoob
0 replies
1h28m

I worked on VoIP before RFC3489. We built our own ways to handle NAT and firewalls, but it always involved something like a directory server that would see both your private and public IPs and share information between clients at call time to connect calls.

defrost
3 replies
10h3m

Odd that

dig A0.0,0.0/0.0,90.0.aerial @dns.toys

and

dig A0.0,0.0/90.0,0.0.aerial @dns.toys

both produce TXT "aerial distance = 10007.06 KM"

The equatorial circumference is 40,075.017 km (24,901.461 mi), while the polar circumference is 40,007.863 km (24,859.734 mi).

I guess there's no great harm in assuming the earth is hypothetically cow shaped, and it avoids that awkward series for shortest distance twixt points following an ellipsoids surface.

aidos
2 replies
9h17m

Oh interesting - those circumferences are actually closer than I assumed they would be!

defrost
1 replies
9h7m

Yeah, it's pretty minor stuff of no real import to many ... unless someone had a background in geodesy and had to measure fields on a oblate spheroid with fragmented moving plates girt by sloshing fluids.

codetrotter
0 replies
4h17m

I like your funny words, magic man :D

Uptrenda
3 replies
9h45m

I like it. I just wish that dig were installed on every platform. I'm always annoyed that it isn't available on Windows and when I checked Debian doesn't have it by default (though easily installable.) OpenBSD and Mac OS X have it though so that's good.

quesera
1 replies
5h10m

You don't need to use dig. nslookup or host work also.

Surely Windows has some kind of DNS lookup tool!

jodrellblank
0 replies
2h53m

Yes, in Powershell:

   Resolve-DnsName

emmanueloga_
0 replies
7h50m

Dog is cross platform and has some nice features, like json output.

https://dns.lookup.dog/

Havoc
3 replies
7h44m

How does this actually work? Finding it hard to believe someone bought domains for all combinations of those unit conversions

maxmouchet
1 replies
7h41m

It works by querying a specific DNS resolver (dns.toys):

  dig +short TXT mumbai.weather @dns.google
  # NXDOMAIN
 
  dig +short TXT mumbai.weather @dns.toys  
  "Mumbai (IN)" "30.90C (87.62F)" "45.90% hu." "clearsky_day" "15:30, Sun"
  "Mumbai (IN)" "28.10C (82.58F)" "56.00% hu." "fair_day" "17:30, Sun"
  ...

Havoc
0 replies
7h3m

I see - thanks for explaining

jfreax
0 replies
7h35m

How does this actually work? Finding it hard to believe someone bought domains for all combinations of those unit conversions

dns.toys runs a (custom) DNS resolver. The example dig commands are asking this resolver. They are not using your configured (public) resolver. The custom resolver can return whatever it wants depending on the request. You could also ask the resolver what the IP (A-record) of e.g. "google.com" is and it could answer with whatever it wants.

Therefore, they actually just use one domain: dns.toys.

robryk
2 replies
6h52m

I'm surprised that they aren't also available in some subdomain of dns.toys (so that they would resolve without using a special name server).

quesera
1 replies
5h11m

If you used default nameservers, you'd be introducing all the usual DNS complications, e.g. caching.

avidiax
0 replies
46m

Those complications would be easily controllable using the TTL.

drones
2 replies
3h34m

(Drawing from 1-semester CCNA course in uni) Since DNS operates over UDP, isn't the amount of data that can be safely transferred effectively bottlenecked by the smallest page size between the routers that reach your device? DNS is served in one chunk, right?

lowpro
0 replies
2h45m

Usually if a response is greater than 512 bytes the DNS server will renegotiate on TCP 53. Note some DNS servers might not do this, but every normal implementation does that I’m aware of.

baby_souffle
0 replies
3h11m

DNS can switch to tcp for this reason

motopost
1 replies
4h17m

Seems like we can just build light weight APIs on top of this. And port 53 is always open too just 80 and 443.

remram
0 replies
2h27m

DNS is designed for caching. You can use DNS for anything that is public, idempotent, and immutable (or at least, slow-changing).

johnhenry
1 replies
2h41m

I'm a big fan of Julia Evans[1] who's made a number of useful toys including ones for DNS here[2] and here[3].

- [1] https://jvns.ca/

- [2] https://dns-lookup.jvns.ca/

- [3] https://messwithdns.net/

rochak
0 replies
52m

Thanks for sharing these absolute gems!

shivam-dev
0 replies
10h4m

Here’s a talk the author of the project gave recently, fun story of how the project came into being

https://youtu.be/ANmFZ8rbmnc?si=ndEWH4xY2oxJuEnB

ricardo81
0 replies
6h19m

Somewhat related, DNS lookup for (UK) business listings - same idea of 'abusing' the DNS service to provide non-DNS data.

https://www.num.uk/

Though going by their roadmap, it may be they're no longer maintaining the service.

mejthemage
0 replies
1h55m

I didn't know you could specify a DNS server with a name. So does dig first look up that name using whatever DNS server is normally configured to determine where the intended DNS server is?

NextDNS gives you a name that you can put in certain UIs (like "Private DNS" in Android) -- I always assumed there was just something special about those.

dang
0 replies
10h12m

Related:

DNS Toys - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31704789 - June 2022 (104 comments)

DNS Toys: Useful utilities and services over DNS - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31637226 - June 2022 (1 comment)