HN comments for: Breakdown of faults by car brand: Tesla has replaced Dacia at the bottom

Is this really a surprise? There are physical realities, and a single company can't suddenly reinvent a century of industry experience with some Silicon Valley pixie dust and government subsidies. Tesla, like many startups, is just rediscovering what it takes to build a car and what other companies have already figured out. Bringing a new drivetrain is not enough.

I think Tesla embodies the SV mindset very well, even demonstrates it in a tangible form.

They move fast and break things.

They move fast and break things.

You forgot the third: they (Silicon Valley) also change the world. For the better. Most of my (and my family’s) every day work and fun are coming from SV. I would not give it up for anything else. If occasionally breaking things is the price - I am more than willing to pay it.

they change the world. For the better.

That's up for a through debate, but not today. Let's leave it at I don't agree that part 100%.

In Norway they revolutionised the car market. They were the very first electric car that people actually wanted to buy. If it hadn’t been for Tesla proving the market for electric cars, I don’t think any other brands would have bothered. So far in 2023 83% of all new cars are electric.

In 2022 every fourth car sold (including petrol/diesel) was a Tesla.

https://elbil.no/om-elbil/elbilstatistikk/

https://www.elbil24.no/nyheter/hver-fjerde-nybil-var-en-tesl...

You forgot the very "unimportant" detail which was that electric cars in Norway were zero VAT and tax for electric cars until this year (normal VAT is 25%).

Well, gee, no wonder that people were buying them left and right when the tax discount was about 16-20k NOK per car on average!

And that is just buying the car - Norway subsidizes electric mobility in many other ways so even today registering a new electric is cheaper than a gasoline car, despite the gas powered vehicles normally costing about 50% less.

So, please, when waving this sort of argument about, don't "forget" to put it in context.

Norway is a special case because of government policies, not because Tesla did anything particularly great there. They were just the only ones on the market at the time so people essentially had to buy a Tesla if they wanted to benefit from the generous subsidies because there simply wasn't anything else available. Today the situation is different, though.

yes - wouldn't it be lovely to see governments uninvolved in these sorts of market decisions?

If the government discounts cars by 25% - that's one thing. But let's not forget too that the greater part of the cost of running a car (the fuel) is mainly made up by tax on the fuel - it itself is an artificial price.

Nothing about transport is reflective of the underlying reality. Its simply a governmental chess board, and could be shifted at any time by new legislation, eg if a tax is introduced to add 50% tax on the electricity used for cars.

Regardless of the worthiness of this or that cause - its most interesting that none of this the free market in action. Its also licensing, government grants, taxes... in all honesty what is the difference between this and communism - where the government overtly controls the actions of the masses?

yes - wouldn't it be lovely to see governments uninvolved in these sorts of market decisions?

I agree. It should start with stopping all fossil fuel subsidies, 7 trillions/year and growing. And ethanol subsides, subsidizing ethanol production on 40m acres, just in US.

And have fossil fuel companies pay for their own military to protect their 6 million assets and 16 million transportation flows[2]. It should be determined by the companies themselves (free market) if these are worth protection, instead of having Govts protect these worldwide. Solar, on the other hand, will not require there protections, it does not depend on the exploration, extraction, shipping, processing, burning, waste output of any fuel. Solar is distributed, on every roof and field, nearly impossible for anyone to invade and destroy.

[1] Global Fossil Fuel Subsidies Reached $7 Trillion in 2022, an All-Time High: https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-fuel-subsidies-2022

[2] https://github.com/Lkruitwagen/global-fossil-fuel-supply-cha...

Is there a story to your username? Do you think we're down to the last few gallons of oil or something..?

the greater part of the cost of running a car (the fuel) is mainly made up by tax on the fuel

That may be true in Europe, but not here in the US. In the US, the federal gasoline tax is currently about $.18 per gallon, and state taxes range from about $.09 to $.58 per gallon[1] (with the median around $0.27). The average price of gasoline in the US has been around $3.00 per gallon[2] ($0.79 per liter), so the total tax would range from about 9% to 25% of the cost, depending on the state.

The price of gas in most European countries is much higher, with Norway paying over twice the US average (US $7.87 / US gallon).[3]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_State...

[2] https://www.finder.com/gas-prices

[3] https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/Europe/

They did nothing great apart, from being the first new car startup in the US in more than 100 years, with an entirely new business model.

OPs point had nothing to do with wether the government subsidised EVs or not.

More than 100 years? Are you SURE about that?

The first one to not fail. All extant US automakers have been in business for over a century.

That exemption was available for any electric car. You’re just supporting the conclusion that Tesla was definitely the leader of electrics.

This just brought the price of electric cars in line with petrol cars of the same size.

When Tesla introduced the Model S there were no other electric sedans on the market.

Tesla introduced the Model X in 2015, it’s now 2023 and you still have to wait almost 2 years more if you want Volvo’s competitor to the Model X. Even with all the amazing subsidies Volvo is still a decade late to the party!

This does not, however, change the fact that it became one of the first mass markeds in the world for electric cars, where Tesla has kept the lead even when all the legacy auto companies are selling electric cars. The Model Y is the most sold var model in Norway in 2023, outselling the number two, VW ID4 by 3-4 times.

Model Y is the most sold car model in the world in 2023.

This is not true, the Leaf was selling in the thousands before Tesla entered the Norwegian market in mid 2013. The Leaf was the best selling car of all new cars in October 2013.

Nobody in this world wants to buy a leaf. (At least not the original model)

Data point of one but: I did!

It looked and drove like a golf cart. And the range was too small.

Might be true for October, but for the entire year of 2013 it was the third best selling car, behind two petrol cars.

https://bilmagasinet.no/bilaret-2013-ble-historisk-godt/

The Leafs were small and had a very short range. They were no replacement for petrol or diesel cars for families. Unlike Tesla S and X.

Norway has been has been massively subsidising EVs for a decade.

While Tesla probably played a role in EV adoption, I think you are overstating it by a lot. If the main factor wasn't economic we would see these same stats in every other country where a Tesla can be bought.

Norway is one of the countries with the highest GDP per capita. I think this puts the norwegian consumer in a better position to by an EV even if it costs more than a comparable ICE vehicle. Not sure that is true all over the world.

Ironically, a big chunk of Norway's wealth has come from being one of the world's largest oil producers (currently about 1.7M barrels per day).[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_produ...

Norway has been has been massively subsidising EVs for a decade.

And every country has been massively subsidizing ICEs since their creation, both explicitly and implicitly (by failing to price in the enormous externalities, engaging in nasty geopolitics up to and including war for oil, tolerance for enormous human atrocities and authoritarian regimes, etc).

Economics certainly matters, but there still have to be vehicles people want to actually buy and can perform as they wish. For me BEVs haven't hit that yet even though I could afford one. Like, there's been a surprisingly slow rollout when it comes to trucks, I think the Cybertruck is the first one I'd consider a real useful (in theory) truck with a minimum of a 6.5' bed. Except build quality is apparently pants, there is all the Tesla spying, and they downgraded the max range option from 500 (paper, which they also apparently lied about) miles (which even on paper would be like 300-350 miles in winter which would be a good useful range), and other problems. Even if the US Government offered me 50% subsidies or something ludicrous for a BEV truck it wouldn't matter if there's literally nothing I want to buy. I think building cars that were actively good vs what came before mattered, as does the charging network. Even if Tesla has run into awful scaling problems and founder-syndrome as happens so often that doesn't IMO negate that.

Let me quickly ask you if Norwegians are seeing the same rates of Tesla mishaps as the rest of the world ( or atleast North America )?

If you happened to be unaware all of these Tesla-skeptics ( atleast this latest round of skeptics ) are being buoyed by this Reuters report about major problems Tesla owners have faced off late. One describing a new owner's experience with his spanking new Tesla : "The vehicle’s front-right suspension had collapsed, and parts of the car loudly scraped the road as it came to a stop."

   Tesla blamed drivers for failures of parts it long knew were defective
   https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering-suspension/

Don’t understand how that guy ended up paying for the failure as under UK Consumer Law that fault is presumed to be a manufacturing one on a car that new and Tesla should replace the card

Yes, Tesla cars in Norway has significantly higher fault rate. Here's an article from 2020: https://www.elbil24.no/nyheter/tesla-sjaforer-krasjer-mest/7...

BMW did bother. They started selling the i3 at the same time then Tesla. And I think it was even better sold then Tesla in the states for some time. Tesla had more aggressive marketing that was hot air at the end of the day …

The i3 came out before the model 3. Before the model 3, Tesla only had the model S (and maybe X?), which is not meant for mass market like the 3 was. Until 2017, Tesla simply didn’t have a mass market vehicle.

I feel like the subsidies given by the government did that. Free parking, free cash towards the car, no taxes, etc. Is what revolutionised the electric car market. And of course most new cars are electric. They are banning the sale of gas powered cars in a couple years in Norway. Maybe Tesla made a car prior wanted but the government made it easy for them to buy it.

That's up for a through debate, but not today

Were it not for Tesla, America wouldn’t be on a path towards electrified transport. The tradeoffs are incredibly germane to the topic.

Even if we take for granted that Tesla is a net positive, Tesla isn't SV. For every Tesla there is a Facebook that is a net negative. Just ask Myanmar.

Just ask Myanmar

Do you mean the military dictatorship? I’m not sure if they are reliable sources. But yes, Myanmar blames lots of their ethnic violence problems on Facebook, it couldn’t be bad governance at all right?

As with most things it's probably a combination of factors, one of which is Facebook essentially monopolising internet access in the country while stoking the fire.

YouTube would also be popular, in most of SEA the internet means mostly Facebook and YouTube, to the chagrin of Chinese internet services who can’t even compete outside of China in their own backyard (well, TikTok is hugely popular there, as it is here, Myanmar is also blaming TikTok and YouTube for ethnic violence, so it just isn’t Facebook). But I’m not sure how Facebooks‘s popularity equals a monopoly, they aren't engaging in anti competitive behavior, the infrastructure is free for use by competitors. The only thing Facebook puts in beyond other markets is localization and marketing.

TV helped changing quite a few regimes throughout history, and not always for the better. However, I do not think anybody would dispute the fact that TV was, overall, a net positive for mankind.

Same with Silicon Valley. There are certain negative aspects to it but overall we are discussing this on the amazing supercomputer it created, with software it wrote, on platforms it maintains [1]. I seriously doubt the majority of people would want to go back to a world without SV's innovations.

[1] of course it wasn't SV alone, there were many contributions from all around the world, it's just that SV spearheaded the changes and lead us on this path.

I can't recall him ever writing black on white that TV was a net negative for humanity, but the thesis of Neil Postmans Amusing Ourselves to Death seems to heavily imply it. It is - as far as I can tell - a pretty influencial thesis on these matters.

Tesla isn't SV. For every Tesla there is a Facebook

Totally agree. But looking at specifics, and dissecting why they work or do not, helps suss out patterns.

For example, Tesla’s benefits are amplified—perhaps even characterised—by their ecosystem effect. That doesn’t happen when you have a quasi-monopoly like Facebook. On the other hand, their downsides are largely a function of lying. That’s common across Silicon Valley, and may similarly have a systematic treatment. (Or, at least, if you’re replicating the model, consider removing that in your iteration.)

on a path towards electrified transport

If not for Tesla, America (& the Western world in general) might not be on a path towards private inefficient electrified road transport, leaving much more room for investment in & upselling of vastly more sustainable non-road transport, as has been done in China.

Musk in particular has form here - consistently blocking & derailing all potential high-speed rail projects for the west coast in favour of white elephants (the material result being a maintained reliance on roads, and - by extension - his big cobalt-mine-dependent business).

derailing all potential high-speed rail projects for the west coast

Musk ran California’s high-speed rail through the Central Valley?

I like public transport. But America isn’t built for it. Switching to trains would mean upending and dissolving tens of millions’ communities. There was no other path without EVs and trains galore; it was—and is—between EVs and ICE cars.

Musk ran

Seems a very honest interpretation of events to purport that Musk has had no influence over transport in California.

America isn’t built for it.

That rhetoric is used the world over as an excuse to bolster against progressive innovation of all kinds. It's been debunked countless times. "Dissolving" communities to make way for rail is of course also nonsense.

I like public transport. But America isn’t built for it.

You mean, America was un-built from it. We had it, but the car and oil industry lobbied it away. We can rebuild it. Don't believe the hype.

Weren't communities dissolved to build the massive highway network US has?

China also would have invested heavily in EVs regardless of Tesla. They simply don’t have much oil, and importing it is a huge national security problem for them. Couple that with their huge pollution problem and tons of cars even with lots of mass transit options, EVs were inevitable and already coming along before the model 3 came out.

I doubt that. The innovation in lithium ion batteries was fueled by the demand for consumer electronics, laptops in particular. It’s the batteries that made electric cars possible.

Tesla’s did kick off the trend of big screens in cars. I prefer buttons to touch screen interactions while driving, but many people want an iPad and Tesla made that happen.

Giving where credit's due, some of the high-discharge long-endurance Li-Ion research is done by Tesla. Other electronic devices generally converge towards slow-discharge, semi-fast charge, low self-discharge batteries.

EVs are unique in their battery requirements. They demand high-discharge, high-endurance, very fast charge batteries, and Tesla did some research on that front. What's important that they were not the sole researchers in that area.

On the other hand, they lack the know-how required to make cars efficiently and assemble them with state of the art methods (minimal/standardized fasteners, fatigue management, fast manufacturing with consistent quality and finishing, etc.).

The Roadster used completely standard 18650 cells that were already in mass production.

innovation in lithium ion batteries was fueled by the demand for consumer electronics, laptops in particular

The battery chemistry and production methods didn’t change fundamentally from Goodenough’s formulation. What did was scale manufacturing. China took the lead, with A123’s tech. But Tesla showed there was demand for EVs in the rich world, and that production could be tamed such that money could be made from it. (EV batteries share little to no production footprint with cells for consumer electronics. They drain differently.)

Pretty much every EV sold in America today was financed by investors looking for the next Tesla, or announced by manufacturers in response to Tesla.

Were it not for Tesla, America wouldn’t be on a path towards electrified transport

That, too, is up for discussion, but not for now. I’ll leave it by saying that, without Tesla willing to sell cars at a loss for a long time, it might be a bit less further on that path, but I think California and/or the EU would have forced it by now to get on that path, by setting goals for cars sold within their jurisdictions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_effect, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect)

There also can be discussion about whether Tesla’s path is the right pat, but that definitely is for another time.

You think the GM and Ford gigafactories would have taken up the slack, ignoring the chance to milk existing ICE investments for another decade? The charging network would have spontaneously emerged and somehow been as good as what Tesla delivers?

Without Tesla German incumbents would have lobbied EU just to mandate biofuels and there would be fever EV:s. Tesla did drag an industry kicking and screaming to EVs.

California and/or the EU would have forced it by now to get on that path

For hybrids, maybe. California is a major oil producer [1]. That lobby counterbalanced the environmental wing for decades. If there wasn’t a mass-market EV, Sacramento wouldn’t have had many options.

that definitely is for another time

Lol, is this a thing now? We’re obviously discussing it at this time.

[1] https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_crd_crpdn_adc_mbbl_m.htm

I look SV's effect on global scale, because I neither live in the US, nor located on the continent itself. Also, the debate is about SV's global impact at full spectrum, not only about Tesla.

So, yes, it's up for debate.

Lastly this doesn't change the fact that Tesla fared the worst in the automaking competition this year w.r.t. everyone else, and they're faking till they're making it. More automakers are always good, but more pretending is always bad (cough VW, Cummins, cough).

So, yes, it's up for debate

I never disagreed. I’m saying the case at hand, EVs, provide a potent balance of the tradeoffs Silicon Valley’s methods involve.

On one hand, you get the capacity for transformational change. Change that can be for the general good. On the other hand, we have costs ranging from a culture of normalised lying to ideological nothingburgers gaining currency due to their proximity to, well, currency.

Put another way, remove Silicon Valley from the equation and yes, we have safer cars. But we also have little reason to be optimistic about ever hitting carbon zero in this country. The latter is more globally relevant than the former.

> America wouldn’t be on a path towards electrified transport

And that is good news because? 100 year from now the avg temperature would be 0.005C less and we'd have substitued the black pollutant with Lithium.

This effort is a spit in the face of people who are alive right now.

There is this paradox of technology where despite a ton of technology it seems that productivity is not shooting up for society as a whole.

I'll try to find the article.

It looks more like technology is <<redistributing>> wealth, which is SUPER scary since technology inherently allows concentration.

Facebook killed 1 million newspapers, yay, now 1 American corporation can siphon all those profits to... no one even knows where, since it's probably parked in some tax haven. It created 10k jobs paid 500k each by killing 10 million jobs each paid 60k. I'm not super convinced the end result is better.

Edit:

https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs201/projects/produ...

The productivity paradox (also the Solow computer paradox) is the peculiar observation made in business process analysis that, as more investment is made in information technology, worker productivity may go down instead of up. This observation has been firmly supported with empirical evidence from the 1970s to the early 1990s.

Redistributing is not a problem that needs to be solved, raising the floor is.

The delta between floor and ceiling does not matter. Lift everyone up, this is not 0 sum.

The delta between floor and ceiling does not matter

Yes it does. Relative power is a thing, even in a democracy.

> this is not 0 sum

The important stuff absolutely is zero sum. Housing , p**y and bragging rights

I'm not super convinced the end result is better.

He said from the warm comfort of his home, with a full belly, writing on a supercomputer created in SV, with software written in SV, on a platform build by SV on a global network created, of course, by the SV.

Would you give up technology then? Nobody stops you but I seriously doubt the productivity of hand-plowing fields is in any way higher than that of modern farm equipment.

Ah, the old "you can't criticize anything unless you're a luddite". Inevitably, you'd excuse them too cause they don't have experience. Make an actual argument.

The link you pointed to doesn’t have any empirical data and the paper it links to doesn’t seem to load. Regardless, we’re 30 years from the 90s now and if anything it seems like productivity has been accelerating since then (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OPHNFB), arguably because of technology.

Also, what’s the argument for Facebook killing newspapers? Craigslist was siphoning off a main source of newspaper revenue for papers long before Facebook arrived. Would you also argue against the end result of moving on from local classifieds sections?

To me teslas are still annoying and dangerous because of a bunch of small things last time i rented one, like buying a great computer, but the screen colours are inverted:

1) No buttons but shit quality touch "areas in places you have to guess" on steering wheel, is straight up dangerous, and incredibly annoying because you can't "get a feel" for anything you have to do, ie. turn lights, wipers etc.

2) No other knobs for sound, climate etc. instead touch screen. Same thing stupid, slow and dangerous.

3) No speedometer, "just look constantly to the right and down" ok now it's getting in to joke territory.

4) Shit interior.

A Renault Zoe cheap mini car is easier in day to day use because of this.

This is like reading a review of an iphone from an older dedicated blackberry user. It can take a bit to get used to advances in technology.

The Tesla UI is the best car UI I've ever used. By far. I would never want to go back.

1. There's zero guessing. The steering wheel touch zones are very nicely marked by bumps. I have never put my finger in the wrong spot. 2. You can configure the steering wheel buttons to do sound/climate/etc. But you're mostly meant to use voice and put everything on auto. 3. Never in my life have I just stared at the speedometer. Why are you staring at it so much? Is something wrong?

3. Never in my life have I just stared at the speedometer. Why are you staring at it so much? Is something wrong?

Without checking speedometer often, how do you know if you're not going above the speed limit?

Go the same speed as traffic? If that turns out to be above the speed limit "they can't (and realistically won't) stop us all"

There's not always traffic.

The traffic camera will gladly catch you all and send you fines.

Drive by feel, isn’t this something everyone develops? You start to notice how fast things move outside the windows like trees, poles, lane lines. Admittedly, if stressed or excited then I tend to go a little faster but I check the speedometer then. Also I drive ICE and can hear/feel the engine. Guess that would be different in a Tesla.

Anyways, generally plenty of feedback to observe without needing to glue your eyes to a speedometer. Is this not a common thing?

Going say 62 km/h does not feel that different than going 50 km/h, but can result in a sizable fine in many countries.

Mine is set to chime when I go 8 mph over (you can define this). Also, I tend to use the traffic aware cruise control on the highway to set a speed and not have to worry about it. Also, the speed is in the top left corner, it’s very easy to flick your eyes there.

As with most of the things that people worry about with these, it’s actually not a problem.

Checking and staring are two different things. I can glance at another woman without being slapped in the face, staring at that same woman may result in other outcomes.

Subjective. I feel completely the opposite about them when I've driven them.

Impressive technology, and admirable strides towards their mission, impressive engineers ... but with many failing: FSD, repairability, boring drive-feedback, insurance pricing, focus on speed over alsmost everything, manufacturing quality both inside and outside, and the design language of a taxi-cab to top it all off ... only the S can be considered a decent looking vehicle.

But, above all, once you lose goodwill (via the CEO behaving like a thirsty attention-grabbing idiot) you lose nearly everything. This is what I don't think is factored into their ridiculous company valuation.

Tesla have been both one of the most impressive companies of the last 20 years, and one of the biggest dissapointments (to me).

the ride is so numb. i am convinced it is on purpose frankly

I'm curious what model you drove that led you to that opinion. I drive an AWD Model 3, but also drive a 2006 Subaru STI on the track. The STI doesn't have the original suspension (which wasn't bad, just wore out eventually) - now it has stiffer, much sportier, suspension for track racing.

All that said, I think the Model 3 feels remarkably sporty for how heavy it is. You can feel that weight in corners for sure, but I'd hardly call the ride "numb". I can't accelerate entirely through a typical corner like I can with the STI, but once the weight settles, and you're coming out of a corner, you can make up whatever was lost when scrubbing speed with instant torque. I think because of that, it feels far more like my STI than most all other cars I've driven.

I largely agree except on steering feel, which Tesla does better than much of the competition these days

We've been using touchscreens daily for about 15 years now, and I am still enraged by the fundamental stupidity of a UI that puts your fingers on top of the thing you're trying to see, with gestures required that you can only guess at.

Just saw that they put the right and left indicator on the Cybertruck on top of each other on the left side of the steering wheel. Yeah that some really innovative UI. Watch MKBHD’s video on the Cybertruck and you’ll see that they’ve ran out of innovation and are just changing things for the sake of changing them. No rear view camera, driving console on top, no latch for glove compartment, no door handles, etc.

I’m all for innovation, but it just seems like Elon is being a contrarian since none of this improves driving at all. Deep down, it seems like Elon is checking how much he can mess with his loyal base by moving things around and making the driving UX worse. Probably strokes his ego.

Have you driven a car without stalks? A yoke with turn signal buttons is better than stalks, I don't have to move my hand to signal

We don't like "getting used to" going back in history.

Where the f*ck is a HUD in a tesla? That's exactly the kind of car which should be getting cool space-age tech like that.

Elon already went on twitter and said no HUD ever and disparaged people asking for it.

Why did another comment saying basically the same thing get mass downvoted and killed? HUDs are some of the coolest features in cars and tesla refusing to implement it is a deal breaker for a LOT of people in the know.

I've seen a HUD in a non-Tesla car and it was a gimmick at best.

At worst, it obscures part of your vision. It also causes more eye strain to use, because there's movement in the background compared to a dashboard.

I don't buy this progress analogy. I'm from Scandinavia where we have Bang&Olufsen which were early adopters of touch controls, and it never came to sit well with me, knobs are still better.

I also used to produce music and buttons were always better, more tactile, then comes latency which is another modern problem - imagine a touch piano with 40ms delay, not good.

Someone also mentioned militaries changed back from touch to knobs because you'd never get the same speed and "feel".

I'm convinced the human mammal is simply adapted to use our hands with tools and materials that give good solid, instant feedback with lots of tactility, texture, depth and even sound and we'll hopefully realise this in the UX world.

Regarding the "who even looks at a speedometer" is just bizarre to me as a city/provincial driver also in Scandinavia. You need to look there continuously as speed limits more or less constantly change when driving here; from 30, to 50, then 40, then 80, then 30 and going more than 30% over you can get a huge fine and 1/3 strike to get your license revoked, ie. you actually have to glance quite a bit which i guess is why car manufacturers have put speedometers there for 100 years, isn't this a normal part of driving a car?

Do they move fast, though? The Model S is ancient history now, and the Model X is aging too. Both models are in need of a successor.

With 162MPH top speed, a Tesla Model 3 is not a slow car by any means, alas it breaks things (which are generally mounted on itself).

it is an interesting strategy here, does misdirection apply well outside if magic? does this work in actual conversation?

It was meant to be a joke to a begin with, but people took it very seriously.

That's just a single example. To add just such an example to the other end of the scales: their factories still move at a glacial pace. Even a tortoise is faster.

I once read an opinion that stated that Tesla will eventually lose because they don't continually introduce new or updated models (say, every year) like other car brands do, and that person thought that they will lose customer favor because of it because their cars will be "the old thing" with no "new thing" available. In other words: Cars are fashion too, and Tesla only has one entry in each category. It's a good entry, but it's only one entry nevertheless.

I thought that was an interesting observation, and I've been reminded of it ever since. Maybe that person was right.

The only mistake Toyota made in the UK was to re-brand the Corolla as an Auris. They paddled back but not to the status they once enjoyed?

What about Model 3 and Model Y? Would you say the same thing aout any other manufacturer that has kept a particular model around?

All that aside, Tesla's approach is to have a few overall form factors and to innovate in software. The hardware is fine and matters a lot less.

Did you not know that the Model S and X had new body, interior, mechanicals just a couple years ago? Making it the quickest production car ever made. How is that ancient history?

My last two new ICE cars had horrible infotainment that crashed constantly, loose fits, and an interior that rattles until it drives one to violence. I'd say they are competing on even grounds here.

Infotainment is not a cars purpose but an addition. If you need to play video games and watch Netflix then you should not be driving.

I would like a map that is up to date and has a good UX. Spotify and podcasts. Voice controls that allow me to hear and speak text messages.

Basic stuff, impossible for Volkswagen.

EDIT: I agree with the replies that say this should be handled by CarPlay/Android Auto. In which case I’d like my cars software to support that well.

EDIT2: Oh and there has to be an api where the car shares charge state and range estimates with my phone, such that my phone can plan a route around charge stops.

Picking VW as an example for Infotainment is the equivalent of picking Tesla for reliability: a way to show how not to do it.

I can vouch that Dacia or Renault is not any better and serve as a pure gateway to Apple Carplay.

VW don’t even support CarPlay though. I am stuck with an android POS that literally does nothing other than take up dashboard space, and a phone glued to the front of it. Can’t even listen to music as the tuner has never worked, and Bluetooth has a range of about 2cm. Dealer said it’s working as intended.

where do you live that VW doesn’t support car play or did they drop support? My last two vws going back to 2017 in the US support it and so have vws i’ve rented in Spain.

Portugal. 2018 Amarok.

My Renault Megane e-Tech has an Android Automotive-based system[1], and it feels quite nice compared to the other cars in its segment that I tried.

The interface feels smooth as a tablet, and I don't think they've done too many weird customizations. Overall quite pleased.

[1]: https://9to5google.com/2021/09/06/android-automotive-renault...

Current Audi is.. fine? But still Android Auto is better. It would be hard to beat because my car is not going to be as integrated.

I am quite happy with Peugeot and Jaguar. Never tried Car Play or Android Auto and never will so, Bluetooth streaming is all I need. I heard all kind of horror stories from the latest VW software so. Which is funny, because Skoda seems to be a lot better despite being the same group.

It's not like TomTom or a phone with Google Maps on it can't scratch that itch.

TomTom doesn’t know the place I searched for earlier and my phone doesn’t know the battery state of my car. (Though the latter could Be fixed through an api)

Basic stuff

Unlike Spotify, car radio does not need subscription nor account.

Voice control is the entertainment! I only ever use it when I’m bored and to see how hilariously wrong it can be :D

I'd like a dumb screen that mirrors my phone, and my phone can take care of all of that. Android Auto is what I want.

This is better provided by your smartphone which already gives you access to your digital life and controlled with android auto.

I wouldn't want to have to setups accounts in my car. Also you don't necessarily want the persons who borrow your car to know everythings about you including every single place you have marked as favorite.

Me too, but I want none of this built into the car (not even if just as a "dumb" Android Auto screen) because this technology will look outdated and tacky in 5 years

I'm not a fan of my Tesla and can't wait to replace it but the video games/Netflix are for when you're charging, you can't watch Netflix while driving on the infotainment

This. I still drive a 2001 auto in no small part because it’s a car instead of an ipad on wheels. I don’t want a GPS or any of that distracting nonsense, and I don’t want my car spying on me.

What does your poor choice of ICE cars have to say about Tesla though? Having a crap experience across the board isn't a redeeming feature you think it is.

What does your poor choice of ICE cars have to say about Tesla though?

That one of the tricks Tesla is figuring out is how to cook the books on these figures.

I drive an ICE Subaru, and I love it. But some friends visited and didn’t tighten the gas cap once, which put the infotainment system into a fit, which put a bunch of other systems into a conniption, systems totally unrelated like ABS. (?!) The issue persisted across restarts and ultimately required servicing.

How was this recorded? User error. In part because there is a dealership between me and the manufacturer that is responsible for servicing the vehicle.

I'm willing to bet a lot, that there was no causation between youe ABS having issues, and a loose gas cap. These events just happened at the same, general timeframe.

there was no causation between youe ABS having issues, and a loose gas cap

I wouldn’t have linked the two had the dealership not told me that was what caused it.

Wouldn't be the first time the dealership was telling customer complete BS assuming that they don't have a clue in order to either get out of a warranty repair or to inflate an invoice.

Also dealerships not having a clue is not rare either. Many garages these days only connect a computer to the diagnostics port, download whatever error codes are shown and tell the shocked driver that half of their car is kaputt with the repair likely going to be several thousands of euro.

All the while the real problem is a blown fuse for one of the control units or a wire has chaffed and broke somewhere - and the diagnostic codes come only because the ECU can't talk to some sensors because part of the vehicle's CAN bus is down.

As another commenter mentioned, this is actually expected behaviour [1]. Because it’s precedented, it’s treated as okay [2].

To me, the car broke. Plainly and simply. And had Tesla had a similar fuckup, I don’t think they’d find sympathy. (Reasonably.) That’s something that comes with a longevity.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38762366

[2] https://www.subaruoutback.org/threads/loose-gas-cap-causes-e...

Yes but by saying those particular words, thousands of dollars left your bank account and entered theirs. Is it possible that is the only reason they said them?

How was this recorded? User error.

This is clearly BS, since it was either coincidence or an electrical/systems problem. The shamelessness of making that claim that is incredible.

Some might question that this could be an electrical or systems problem, but the gas cap on my Kia, a relatively flimsy piece of plastic, will disable the car if not replaced properly. How does this manifest itself? With a check engine light on the dash.

This is the most stupendously idiotic misfeature in an otherwise well designed (and reliable) car.

A loose gas cap triggers an EVAP leak code + check engine light on pretty much every car made since the early 2000s. Now depending on said car, all traction control and ABS might be half-disabled as soon as the CE light turns on. Usually newer cars will disable more systems to bring you back to the dealer.

ex. my current car had an intermittent O2 sensor issue, which would turn the traction control in lazy mode and try to kill me in snow/ice conditions by reenabling itself at the worst possible moment when detecting slippery conditions. My previous car had traction controls completely independent from engine faults.

No fan of Tesla(rented one, hated it), but you have a point. Subaru had two different firmware issues that caused us to be stranded two different times(the battery charge issue and the fuel gauge issue). Both were known issues when we were stranded, but Subaru failed to notify us. I had to go to the dealer and specifically request the firmware updates.

Now, granted, my Subaru has a wonderfully designed interior, doesn't require using a touchscreen, has consistent panel gaps, etc...

Aren't everybody using android auto (or its Apple equivalent) these days anyway?

The builtin infotainment system is usually just a second thought that exist just to showcase something in the showroom and setup android auto at first use.

I have no reason to use it because my infotainment doesn’t suck.

I assume you're using Tesla. Do you live in one of their core markets? I doubt Tesla Maps or whatever it's called holds a candle to Google Maps for non-US, non-Western Europe regions.

Will android auto even work wireless? Any bigger bump and it stops working, so I jut put my phone in a plastic handle that is attached to the window with a suction cup..

Google upgraded Android Auto to a backward incompatible version right before I bought my second hand 2016 car. The car manufacturer never upgraded the software of the car so I don't even know what Android Auto can do. But everybody has their own phone so if it's OK at home and on a bus it will be OK in a car too.

Tesla isn't. Which is really frustrating because the voice control in the Tesla does not work reliably (maybe functions 20% of the time, and that's _if_ the button on the steering wheel to start it works - usually that fails to register even before I attempt to speak to the car)

No, because Teslas don't support it and you're stuck with whatever they thought of.

To be fair, infotainment is a relatively recent feature of cars.

What is there to be fair about? We've had various iterations of GPS navigation for decades now. Yet, most maps on most infotainments are unusable slow pieces of rubbish. UX of various GUIs has been a point of research for a very long time. Yet, they are discovering it as if it was a completely new concept, the concept of touching something and it actually doing something in a short amount of time. It's like they are purposely ignoring the plethora of mobile devices and GPS units of the last decades.

Because these are bonus features and not necessary for driving unlike tires that won't fall off.

Seems like Tesla fails at the core feature of a car.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38707589

Because these are bonus features and not necessary for driving unlike tires that won't fall off.

Seems like Tesla fails at the core feature of a car.

Thank god the existing manufacturers have this nailed down, like Toyota[0], Dodge [1], Ford[2], Mazda[3], or even high end manufacturers like Lamborghini[4].

[0]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-recalls-new-ev-over-risk...

[1]: https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/dodge-ram-trucks-recalle...

[2]: https://www.thedrive.com/news/2022-ford-f-150-raptors-recall...

[3]: https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/nation-world/2019/07/03/...

[4]: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/lamborghini-aventador-sv-...

Toyota, Ford, Dodge = could fall off

Tesla = would fall off

Toyota, Ford, Dodge = Safe language in a recall document

Tesla = you talking out of your ass

Were they luxury cars, like teslas?

Were they luxury cars, like teslas?

Teslas are priced as luxury cars but they aren't luxury cars. They have strong selling points, like the amazing battery compared to other EVs or their looks (I do find the Model S very nice / sleek) but the quality of the interior/materials and sound proofing simply isn't there, not by a mile.

Here's a list, for example, of some actual luxury cars:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-segment

I was highly disappointed when I went in a Model S: I'm used to actual luxury cars and I simply don't know how to put it nicely: to me a Model S is a complete rip off price-wise.

I'd urge anyone thinking that Tesla is luxury to go in a Mercedes dealership and sit in a class S or go to a Porsche dealership and sit in a Panamera (or in the Taycan 100% EV). That is luxury.

FWIW the Tesla Model S and Porsche Panamera (for example) entry models begin at the same price so it's not apple and orange comparison: that's why I say Tesla is sold as luxury, at the price of luxury, but is not luxury.

Tesla had the first mover advantage on offering EVs. I don't think they will be able to charge the premium going forwards compared to say Mercedes and still have the low quality interior and general mechanical quality at Dacia level.

What exactly gives impression of luxury in Tesla, other than ridiculous price?

luxury cars, like teslas

Model 3s are not luxury vehicles. By feature set, positioning or price point.

What do you mean by “ICE cars?”

Internal combustion engine

Internal Combustion Engine

Aka petrol/diesel

loose fits, and an interior that rattles until it drives one to violence

Confirmed. Friends in the car maintenance business have witnessed for years a quality fall (materials etc).

"Infotainment", I hope I will not have the experience (apart maybe from removing some), but my last car was the first one with a sound system that hissed.

I watch Sandy Munro sometimes. His comments on how to cut costs sometimes sound brilliant, and sometimes sound like a race to the bottom. I suspect that's the problem: even the experts don't know what the consequences of a certain cost cutting measure is.

At a polar opposite, I'm reminded of the wonder of walking across the Brooklyn bridge and thinking, "they don't make them like this anymore".

Wait until you read how many people died building the BB and how much it costs to maintain it.

Althought we did learn a lot about the affects of pressure on the human body which is cool.

How is your anecdote supposed to counter cold hard data gathered at the level of a whole country?

How is Tesla still considered a startup? It’s a 20 years old company with a 80billion valuation and more than 100k employees

Edit: I even missed a zero, it has a 800billion valuation

I guess because most of their competitors are 100 yrs old? Making cars is really, really hard. Tesla’s first mass produced car was only ten years ago, and their top two models 6 and 3 years ago. The average age of their entire fleet is in the low single digits.

In the car world that’s just getting started.

Honestly, That's not good enough. In the car world you can recruit car engineers to fix simple car production problems. Objectively most of Tesla's issues are due to the poor fit and finish of the cabin and general fitment of things together. IF you ignore the whole electric engine and just treat it like and ice vehicle, Telsa should just be building on the knowledge of others and hiring Toyota engineers to help the nail things like delivery a simple service schedule. Making sure that cars roll of the line with everything tight and having spares ready for consumable parts.

It's not an acceptable excuse to shrug your shoulders and say that they're new at this. The concept of delivering a vehicle isn't new and Telsa has a TON of money.

Change the genre of product to Tech / software engineering. If Telsa was a software company shipping a crap product that broke all the time and then suddenly you found out that they didn't do XYZ of industry standard you'd hold them to account for not taking standard approaches to standard problems.

Tesla produced the same number of cars in 2022 as they did in all years combined from 2012-2020. If you think it's easy to just stand up that level of production capacity, and that they are actually they are just ignoring simple production problems, then you are underestimating the challenge.

Things like panel gaps are not necessarily easy fixes - i.e. what if you know the solution to a 1mm improvement, but can't easily fix it without taking the production line down for x weeks because you need to change the robot arm and conveyor system?

Other manufacturers like Toyota would actually shut the production line down to fix such problems instead of shipping defective products.

I guarantee they wouldn’t shut down the line while they wait for a fix for within-tolerance panel gap improvements - they would work on designing a fix that would be implementable on the line while continuing manufacture. Designing, Testing and Commissioning an improvement will often take many months.

The zero defect thing is fixing issues early rather than fixing them at the end - not shutting down the whole line if you identify that a tolerance can be improved and waiting for the fix.

As I understand it, the parent post is talking about defects that cause actual issues. If that's the case, then it sounds to me like the gaps aren't within tolerance.

The parent post is talking about fit and finish.

As long as it isn't the Daihatsu unit, apparently:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/20/toyotas-daihatsu-to-halt-veh...

People don’t realize that even corporations have budgets and have to choose what to invest in. It’s not as if TSLA is paying dividends. All of the money that comes in goes to somewhere.

They chose to invest in certain things (sales, manufacturing ramp up, pickup and semi development, charger network, driverless development etc.) and not in others (panel gaps, fit and finish, etc.)

Easy to decide you disagree but it is working for them.

> Easy to decide you disagree but it is working for them.

Corporations wins are customers losses.

In Tesla case even more considering they are literally re-inventing the wheel for political purposes so the whole effort is even more ridiculous.

There is a concept in manufacturing called the andon cord (a button / pull that activates a claxon and stops the line). Once the line stops, everyone swarms the problem and works on a fix. Toyota in the 80s pioneered its use and then beat the big 3 at manufacturing quality.

They aren't pulling the andon cord because the panel gap's are within tolerance but could be improved.

Parent post is talking about general fit and finish (i.e. tolerances being wide), try being a production line operative and pulling the andon because you think panel gaps could be decreased.

You are supposed to be pulling it if you notice the wiring loom is broken or something like that, not just fit and finish.

Besides, people are talking in this thread like lean / six sigma are new concepts that won't be already be fully embedded in the existing Tesla plants - this stuff is basic manufacturing which will already be fully embedded, but is just misunderstood by most people.

I don't think the TÜV in Germany cares about panel gaps.

You’re describing priorities, not impossibilities.

Then you take it down and not make a sub-par product. I'm not sure why we all need to ascribe some sort of Messianic vibe to a car company. I'm also not sure I want to bow to the altar of "whip your well-paid employees to sacrifice the best years of their lives to push out meh vehicles" either.

1000% behind the electric push, but dang y'all, it is car company

> If you think

Consumers pay money in order not to think. The thinking has to be done by the organization who takes their money.

In Tesla's case particularly given that there is some Stockholm sydrome, Heaven's Gate type thing going on between Tesla and their customers.

In the car world you can recruit car engineers to fix simple car production problems.

I'm no "car engineer", but I doubt most of Tesla's production issues are "simple".

Change the genre of product to Tech / software engineering. If Telsa was a software company shipping a crap product that broke all the time and then suddenly you found out that they didn't do XYZ of industry standard you'd hold them to account for not taking standard approaches to standard problems.

Software is the last comparison I would have made. First of all Tesla is a software company. Secondly, the software industry is notorious for terrible products gaining massive market share. cough Google Docs/Sheets/Slides.

I don't know why you think Google Docs, Sheets and Slides are terrible products, I personally think they're great and much better than the alternatives that came before them, particularly in the problems they wanted to solve: fully Web-based document creation, editing and storage, and collaboration.

He merely asked why it’s considered a startup. Startup companies take employees from established competitors all the time. Startups can also make products poorly too.

By that logic every prostitute runs a startup.

edit: (not really a great example, just wanted to play off of 'the world's oldest profession')

Better example would be calling Macy's a startup because Hudson's Bay Company was founded in the 1600s.

tesla is a startup because it allows less strict oversight from the public. “startup” seems to now simply mean “burn cash until market dominance” or “regulations have mot caught up to our industry”. it is not an actual startup, just a court of public opinion one, allowing it to do shady shit under the guise of progress at any cost

tesla is a startup because it allows less strict oversight from the public.

Tesla is a publicly traded company, subject to all the rules and regulations of the territories it operates in.

Rules are only as good as their enforcement and it turns out said enforcement is lacking in a lot of areas.

Their valuation is three times larger than Toyota, yet they manufacture only 10% as much cars a year. It’s still deeply rooted in hopes of future expansion and innovations, lack of which they might not survive.

You’re right that they have a juicy valuation.

But it’s about number of dollars made, not cars.

And on that metric Tesla is on par with GM and ahead of Ford. I don’t know about Toyota.

https://valustox.com/F

https://valustox.com/GM

https://valustox.com/TSLA

They sold about 1/8 the cars Toyota did in 2022 but they also made about 8x the profit per car. And Toyota has a huge debt load whereas Tesla had money in the bank + was growing + FSD will Soon™ be here (and if/when it does, Tesla's profits will explode) + there's the energy business + there will probably be something like AWS for AI in a year or three.

Funny enough I can comment on this with some data…

I was involved in a study a few years back that looked (in part) at how engineering undergraduates defined entrepreneurship and startup. It fortunately the results from that part ended up on the cutting room floor to focus out main paper on something else…

Generally, to undergraduate engineers, entrepreneurship and startups are defined by the following things:

Being in Silicon Valley/San Francisco

Doing something related to technology

Being financially successful (yes…noting another finding was that they often subconsciously conflated revenue and profit, but only when told the financial data was from a “startup”)

Being controlled by their founder

Counterpoint: The new crop of BYD EVs seem to be really well built - up with European/Asian brands in their market segment.

They still lag somewhat in other areas (drivetrain efficiency, software, ADAS etc.), but to say that a new company can't build cars well is simply just not true.

HN is suddenly anti-innovation

You must be a 100yr old conglomerate, those companies never do shady things or have failures in quality control.

A weird accusation. It's not the 100 year old multinationals at the bottom of the reliability indexes.

Tesla is also no longer innovating, they are far behind in almost every way. They lost their lead in battery tech, marketing and assistance features.

HUH?

They are still innovating. For all of its other drama the Cybertruck has some amazing innovations. It's now a 48V system, uses an ethernet bus, uses un-treated stainless steel, etc.

Again, I'm not remotely claiming the Cybertruck is a great vehicle or that it won't have any problems, but they definitely are still innovating on vehicles.

Marketing? Tesla never really had a marketing department and now doesn't even have a PR department, last I heard.

Correct.

Its steel body panels alone qualify as both disruptive market and technical innovation. There's exactly nothing else like it.

Did you see Munro's walking tour of the steel fab? The welding of the interiors to their respective body panels is awesome. Just one of dozens of process and technical innovation. Terrific stuff.

Acknowledging caveats about Musk, leadership, working conditions, FSD, yadda yadda aside:

Other manufacturers certainly have noted Cybertruck's reduced part count (BOM) and labor hours. They've gotta be concerned.

Like Apple with the iPhone, Tesla will continue to be more profitable than its competitors. Cheaper cost of capital, pour those profits back into R&D, fly wheel effect, etc.

The only reason I bought a Tesla in April of this year is because they'd sell me one. Every other car company gave me the same line: give us money, we'll call you in July/August. They all had outrageous dealer markups. Two weeks after I bought my car, Tesla lowered the price on the X: they sent me a check for the difference. I ended up calling customer service to figure out why they'd sent me a check!

How is this report a reliability index? If you service your car often because it needs constant maintenance (oil changes), the safety inspection won't find minor issues to complain about

Yes but the article is about the Tesla being at the bottom of the list.

If you’re one of the 3/20 Tesla 3 owners that have serious faults Teslas innovation isn’t of much value to you.

Wouldn’t it be more fair to compare a Chinese made Tesla to a Chinese made BYD? Surely, some Chinese consumer sentiment has been developed since they compete head on in the Chinese market?

and government subsidies

What government subsidies has Tesla received to date? Please post links to sources.

https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/tesla-inc

Interesting it makes no mention the federal loans were repaid in full, early, with interest.[1] As apposed to GM & Chrysler who got billions in bailouts that were never repaid. [2]

[1] https://money.cnn.com/2013/05/22/autos/tesla-loan-repayment/...

[2] https://theweek.com/articles/454749/auto-bailout-officially-...

I'm not partial to any side in this debate, but the second table in the linked document is called "LOAN / BAILOUT SUMMAY"

So what? you asked about A, you received A, now you whine "why don't you mention B!?!"

The discussion is about subsidies not loans or bailouts (which are different things)

Hope those goal posts aren't too heavy

Here is one source: https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-201...

Your views are spot on, just one thing: Tesla is out of startup mode for like what, 10, maybe even 12 years? They are just another seasoned manufacturer stringing along, well, with rock-bottom 'quality'.

It is just that his highness, greatest pretengineer of recent times, SEC-convicted fraudster, CCP-affiliated (some say owned) dude whilestill holding US security clearances, documented drugster and potentially affiliated too with Mexican cartels, has a strong NIH syndrome, and thinks he's smarter than decades of engineers contributing their discoveries into our human knowledge pool. Constantly overruling the more sensible people still working for him by authoritarian decrees.

OP is comparing them against the legacy car making industry - they are still a 'young' player by a long way, and a relative newcomer.

Besides, the SEC scandal is pretty small-beer in terms of auto industry scandals - see the VW emissions scandal, the safety scandal of Toyota which is only just kicking off, General Motors ignition switch scandal, going all the way back to the classic defective gas tank scandal from Ford...

I don't know, man, my 2016 Model S has been lower maintenance than any of my past or current cars, with the exception of our RAV-4 which has way, way lower miles on it (90K vs 30K). So, YMMV.

It's a bummer because with Elon's antics I don't see myself owning another Tesla, but my experience so far has been great.

Lucky you, a month out of warranty mine had an issue that was $1000 to fix. It was, IMO, clearly a manufacturing defect they should have handled but did not. It was really fun being stuck at a grocery store with my infant in below-freezing temperatures with a car that would not start!

The incumbent US car brands barely does any manufacturing themselves anymore, they are mainly big procurement + assemly + marketing blobs.

Not very conducive to driving product innovation.

Not considering assembly to be manufacturing is an interesting take. Counter example: Apple (innivation and all that) and Foxconn.

Assembly absolutely is manufacturing.

Fortunately, there’s a broad network of independent mechanics and third party parts to make Tesla repairs easily accessible.

I suppose that was a sarcasm/irony ...

I mean, they could presumably afford to hire people who know how to do this. It is not a secret; for the right money you can get the process expertise.

Wow I love traditional automakers!!

ahem Japanese vehicles in the 1970s and 1980s were beating US car makers in quality and the Japanese auto companies were, get this only, 30 years old!

It does not take a century to match up quality engineering with QA processes than take those inputs and re-make the automation line.

Tesla was necessary to tip the EV market though by bringing that new drive train, because legacy car companies would have mostly dragged their feet on EVs for as long as possible.

Some of the Chinese companies that are now dominating some corners of the electric car market barely existed 5 years ago and they score far better than many expected on reliability scores.

I guess scale allows you to compensate for years of experience.

Would be interesting to see how they will test your theory in the next few years. My hypothesis is a few chinese brands will be scoring in the top 10% of reliability in the next 5 years.

I’m surprised that you find the software to be junk.. that’s supposed to be one of their strong points. I found the software on the Model S I borrowed for a trip a while back quite nice. But I guess the issues aren’t surface level?

My partner and I share a Tesla. It's 'mained' under her account. About 25%-50% of the times I enter the driver's seat - it varies depending on the version it's on - it forgets my driver profile and I have to reconfigure the mirrors and seat. This bug was first reported in 2020 IIRC and never fixed. Never buying another Tesla. Their only advantage is the network of superchargers.

Weird. Is your wife's phone nearby by chance? The only time this happens to me it's because we are both walking to the car together and her phone unlocks it before mine does.

And why would that feature rely on a phone in the first place instead of letting the driver change the profile when getting behind the wheel? Or e.g. use a fingerprint sensor or interior camera (which some of the Teslas do have)?

That sounds like some software guy somewhere didn't realize that those seats in the car aren't only for carrying air but that actual people or, gosh, occasional other drivers ride in them too.

Sadly this is rather symptomatic for many things coming out of Silicon Valley (not only Tesla).

There is an easy profile toggle

The author said they know that but the problem was the profile being deleted.

It needs to let you select the seat _from the door_ before getting in, without access to the touch screen, else someone 6ft getting in after someone 5ft is in for a miserable time.

It's an option when you set up your phone as a key. If it didn't delete me and just picked the wrong profile, it'd be a great feature.

But it does let you select? You wrote so many words but have no experience yourself.

Even if she were near, I'd expect it to select her profile and let me select mine. Instead it deletes my profile entirely and I need to reconfigure my seat, mirrors, and any drive settings that are now at default.

Odd. We haven't had any issues with our profiles, worked perfectly for past 18 months.

I was sure you were going to complain about the windshield wipers "automatic" mode

All the other EVs have standardized on their charger now as well though, so their network is available to everyone.

_Will be_ available. Rollout is happening slowly.

Tesla's supercharger map shows which stations are open to non-Teslas so far: https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bounds=66.26595543136888%2C...

Is it already open or is it opening? Last time I talked to my friend with an EV Porsche, he wasn't yet able to use the superchargers.

We had a model s, the software crashed constantly. Or just locked up.

Nothing like having your dashboard go black at 70 mph to instill confidence in your car.

Weird, I’ve had my Model S for 8 years, and it never locked up once.

Is yours a MCU1 model with problematic eMMC that has worn out?

My 2016 Model S has had this happen a few times. I have even upgraded to the new computer (so the touch screen no longer feels like a Motorola Xoom), and I occasionally get this issue - but it's much rarer today than it was pre-upgrade.

Major complaint here: when it does happen, it takes minutes to reset, and you can't see your speed and get no audible cues for what is going on with the car. It is an extremely dangerous failure state.

My 8 year old Volvo does that rarely (two times in 8 years). At least it has a watchdog that reboots the dash and keeps running.

Guessing an eight year old Volvo still has a working speedometer during a restart, though.

Can you please elaborate on that list? I've had a Model 3 for two and a half years and it's still the best driving experience I've ever had.

I've had my car for about the same length of time. It is fun to drive when it's working. The first two years were uneventful, but it was evident that the build quality was subpar and the software substandard. And I'm not referring to the entertainment system here, but rather the software that controls the car itself, which falls short compared to my Volvo XC60. The fly-by-wire system lacks the necessary redundancies and telemetry/logging to fail safely. My experience involved the car's computer malfunctioning while in lane-keeping cruise control (Autopilot, not FSD). The vehicle would abruptly and violently swerve out of the lane, crossing over the white line into adjacent lanes and towards barriers. Tesla initially attributed these issues to wheel alignment or tracking. It took several service appointments and months to convince them otherwise, requiring me to mount a GoPro in my car and dangerously recreate the issue, which randomly occurred after about 45 minutes of cruise control driving. It wasn't until I contacted their PR department and threatened to involve the press that they took the matter seriously.

What a perilously flawed failure mode. Yet, throughout these months, during which the car swerved erratically at least 20 times, no alerts were triggered, nor were errors or crash dumps logged that could be detected by their technicians or the main office in California. It required GoPro footage from inside my car to highlight the issue.

Their service process is Kafkaesque. Phone support is ineffective, and you're relegated to using a text box in the mobile app that only accepts small image attachments. Videos cannot be uploaded directly; they provide an email address, but emails can;'t contain links or they will be blocked and emails with large attachments won't work. Each interaction feels like starting from scratch, as they don't seem to review the history or notes of your issue.

As for the humidity or fog in your headlights, they claim it's within specifications and will dissipate once the car warms up. There's so much more, phantom breaking at highway speeds, exaggerated range estimates, slow headlight dimming, headlights that need constant re-calibration, terrible rain sensors and wiper modes, etc. etc.

I rented a model 3 yesterday. I generally like the car, but the autopilot* was indeed a big letdown. It would exit cruise control/lane keeping mode occasionally due to 'system error'. This precipitated a DEFCON 5 type emergency with visual and audible alerts, not to mention sudden drop in speed and loss of automatic steering.

Even when it runs nominally, it prompts you every 20 seconds or so to apply turning force to the wheel (counterintuitively, as you want to go straight in the lane). If you are momentarily distracted (like having a relaxed conversation) and miss the warning, boom, DEFCON 5. Do that a few times and now the car will actively prevent you using autopilot, like an overbearing mother.

The feature that is supposed to make driving more enjoyable, instead ratcheting up anxiety towards almost giving everyone a heart attack. I drive other cars all the time and they do this fine. So weird.

*autopilot = I am just talking about cruise control + lane keeping, i.e. press down on the stalk. Not sure about the naming.

Pro-tip: rolling either of the thumb wheels counts as input. You don't have to turn the wheel.

I didn't realize that - will have to try in the future

Even when it runs nominally, it prompts you every 20 seconds or so to apply turning force to the wheel (counterintuitively, as you want to go straight in the lane)

This is a huge issue with Tesla's system, they were too cheap to actually detect hands on the wheel and instead train you to exert undue force on the wheel which can lead to steering incorrectly. The timing for the system is haphazard at best and often dings you for not having hands on the wheel when you do, but you were too busy driving to pay attention to the prompts.

DEFCON 5 is the lowest level, “normal”.

It took several service appointments and months to convince them otherwise, requiring me to mount a GoPro in my car and dangerously recreate the issue, which randomly occurred after about 45 minutes of cruise control driving.

Then post the video and publicly call them out?

It wasn't until I contacted their PR department and threatened to involve the press that they took the matter seriously.

This is where ya lose me... Tesla doesn't have a 'PR department'

He probably means he contacted the email address listed under the heading "Press" on their contact page. At any other company the department that handles that address would be called the PR department.

You say this as if it is something somebody should be reasonably expected to do, rather than this is something no one should reasonably have to deal with.

I admit I never had a service need that prevented me from driving: I have a preemptive A/C tube replacement and I have an appointment to replace a tire pressure monitor, so I can't attest to the quality of service.

Regarding autopilot, I agree that it's bad. I don't know how it compares to other cars - I've never driven another car with lane-keeping - only a Toyota and a Volkwagon with adaptive cruise control, and my Tesla seems to be as good as they were.

In truth I think the whole "self-driving car" idea is a horrible mess. If I were a regulator the only self driving I would approve is Level 5 - full self driving, and maybe level 4 which is really level 5 just geofenced. Either you're driving the car or the car is driving itself, you can't have it both ways.

Adaptive cruise control is still you driving - because if you lose focus or attention for more than a second or two you'll slip off lane - while lane keeping is horrifying to me because you could lose attention for half and hour and still be fine - right until you're not (and neither is the person you hit).

All this to say that yes, Tesla's autopilot is crap, but I don't use it and wouldn't use a competitor's version, so I don't measure it by that yardstick.

What else have you driven?

Same here, have a Model 3 for 1.5 years and so far my best car ever. Parts and material aren't top notch but I feel I get my money's worth.

Unless the car becomes a pile of junk under me I don't see all the hate. As with any popular product, you'll find people with several sigmas of bad experience.

I don't own a Tesla, but I have a relevant anecdote related to your post. I rented a Model 3 in Switzerland and while the car was drivable, I felt that the interior was cheaply made, giving the impression that I was driving a toy car.

The car had a lot of plastic and whenever I drove over bumpy roads, there were cracking friction sounds everywhere. Additionally, the acceleration was extremely sensitive, making it difficult to maneuver in tight streets.

The interior is cheap. Even my 10 year old BMW 1 series interior feels better and is much sturdier.

Your BMW 1 series is considered a luxury car. A new sedan is close to twice the Model 3.

Tesla is not a luxury car company. You pay a premium for the electric part, and put up with everything else.

They took a risk that nobody else was willing to make and proved a market. We're in a better place, ecologically speaking because of them. Their cars are also cheaply made. Now that manufacturers that know what they're doing are competing, Tesla is in trouble.

Does your BMW have blinkers?

Totally agree with you on interior feel. However, the acceleration is tunable in the settings whenever you want.

I agree on the Model S, some of the interior feels cheap (but some does not). In particular the panels around the door interior don't mount very well or stay put. The rest of the interior seems good though. This coming from an Audi A8, which had a really great interior.

According to reviews, the refreshed Model 3 has a considerably improved interior. Here's one from Motor Trend:

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-tesla-model-3-highla...

That goes for their software also, absolute junk.

Compared to what? I am a BMW owner who would never recommend this brand to anybody because of its horrible build and software problems.

Thank God for CarPlay!

I always find this sentiment about BMW surprising - iDrive is my favorite of the OEM infotainment systems.

I cannot say much about parts quality since I have owned my Tesla only for 6 months, but the software is top of the line of EVs.

There seems to be a bunch of Musk hatred that people just transfer to Tesla hatred.

It would be much more productive to ask why rather than to dismiss my observations as some sort of grunge against the CEO. See my other comments.

I also have a Volvo XC60 with lane keeping, I find it's much more reliable than Autopilot and doesn't dangerous "phantom break" at highway speeds for no reason. See my other comment for some more, but not an exhaustive list, of the issues I have with my Model 3.

I bought a new MB CLA 6 years ago, done almost 100k. Nothing broke, never had a problem with software or hardware. Only maintenance was oil, brake fluid, break pad, filters, summer tyres, windshield wipers. Batter is still good, next year I'll replace break discs.

I've been tracking, drifting and driving quite hard (bloody potholes!). I don't think I'll ever sell this car.

I also have a Model 3 and don't feel that way. The only issue I've ever had with it was a door sensor that went bad. Someone showed up at my house and replaced it in under 5 minutes at no cost.

All in all, not a terrible experience.

My last Nissan shut off (including the power steering) in the middle of the road while I was driving; I don't recall the exact problem but it was related to the motor. My BMW blew a headgasket. My Subaru was recalled for a faulty transmission. None of those flaws are even possible with an all electric drivetrain.

All this should be recommended in the UI.

The car DOES have maintenance needs.

Lots of people in models X & S are surprised to find their seemingly ok tires are NOT OK because they wear very quickly on the non-visible inside edge.

there are brakes on the car, which have pads and fluid. There is coolant for the battery.

Honestly, there should be a maintenance screen in the UI. You should be able to replace tires, or windshield wipers or fluid and the UI should keep track of it. Even if it just says "last replaced 10/11/12 @ 23,456 miles" or "inspected 11/12/13" or something.

There is a service screen in the UI with alerts and details on when tires were last changed. There is an alert for windshield fluid.

my UI doesn't have that. I've changed my tires myself and there was nowhere to enter the data. Do you mean the app or in car?

If a non-tesla person changes my tires, they haven't done anything.

I don't take my car to tesla for tires anymore. They charge you for everything, and offer no warranty. (also, my tires cannot be rotated)

From the manual:

To see the miles driven since your last tire rotation or replacement, touch Controls > Service and look under Last Tire Service. After the tires on Model 3 are rotated, replaced, or swapped, update your vehicle's tire configuration by touching Reset, or by touching Wheel & Tire > Tires from the same screen. This allows your vehicle to reset the learned tire settings and improve your driving experience. This also clears and resets the tread wear alert for the vehicle until you travel 6,250 miles (10,000 km) and low tread depth is detected again.

had to look it up because I wasn't sure where it was but knew I had seen it.

Translation: Teslas, not sure which model you looked up, have such bad suspension and stearing that tires, ubder regular use, worn down inconsistently. Which shouldn't be an issue in modern cars running proper tires and tire pressure.

Ah yes, "Big Tesla" must have gotten to...checks notes...Michelin tires[0], Ford[1], Toyota[2] and more...

Your ignorance to cars and blind hatred to Tesla is showing BTW.

[0]: https://www.michelinman.com/auto/auto-tips-and-advice/tire-m...

[1]: https://www.suttonford.com/service/service-and-parts-tips/wh...

[2]: https://www.performancetoyotapa.com/service/service-tips/how...

Inconsistent tire wear has nothing to do with the tires and all with the car so. Oh, and wrong tires (as in tires not meeting speed, load or dimension requirements), tires wrongly mounted on the rims (common among "tuners") or wrong tire preasure.

How much do you know about cars or mechanical engineering?

If Apple made a car, I would expect "Preferences -> Logbook -> ["Show logs", "Add Service Record...", "Save in PDF"]" menu, never heard Tesla have one in Settings menu.

Brakes are probably going to last for at least 100k miles easily. Mine are still fine after 150k miles.

Pads and rotors - yes. Fluid - probably not. Usually changing fluid every 2 years is a good idea. Both to keep brakes performance and prevent rusting due to water slowly making it’s way into the system.

I've never changed every two years on any vehicle.

That's a useless data point without knowing how much you drive. a taxicab or police vehicle racks up hundreds of thousands of miles per year, and thus needs fluids far more often than every two years.

Regenerative braking means the pads basically never get used, so they should be good for a really long time compared to an ICE vehicle.

The regular inspection for ICE vehicles is centered around oil changes, air filter change (engine, not cabin), valve checks and distribution chain/belt changes. Everything else, from brake pads (wear sensors entered the chat), tires (life varies a lot, from 10k km to over 40k km for cars), windshield wipers (no determined lifetime, change it when it breaks) to brake fluid (recommended to change every 3 years) are done opportunistically with some oil changes.

Without an ICE, the only regular maintenance you need is brake fluid. Everything else depends loosely on kilometers and style of driving and quality of materials (wipers).

Sure, but why wouldn't Tesla write some software for those items like other car brands do? Let the driver know it's time to replace the brake fluid, tell the driver the estimated wear (+ sensor warning) on the brake pads?

If I had to guess? Putting a service interval reminder would contradict the idea that EV's need absolutely no maintenance whatsoever.

That being said I vaguely recall hearing that Teslas had an annual service interval in the manual. Is that not the case?

How much does this vary by jurisdiction? I remember the UK has the "MOT test" which I think does rather more than that, but that's just the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOT_test

The official inspection is different by jurisdiction, the maintenance plan depends on the manufacturer. The inspection and maintenance are different, for example in regular maintenance schedule there is no emissions check, while the inspection does it. The other way around, maintenance includes checks on all fluid level (coolant, brake, washer) while the inspection does not.

It should be possible to equip the car with enough sensors to detect or predict maintenance needs. Tesla's approach is, however, still incomplete. The powertrain is sensored enough, suspension/brakes/tires aren't.

Just a few data points. :)

My direct experience with power train sensors has been a loud noise and lots of red triangle messages that something has failed (drive motor).

Another time my direct experience with inside edge wear has been... a pop and a hiss. Then the tire pressure readout gave a red triangle to say the tire had low pressure and the number was dropping to zero. (google "tesla inside edge tire wear")

My direct experience with many flat tires has been -- tesla roadside assistance will waste the rest of your day or night. I've considered buying that aftermarket spare.

And the battery fuse went once - I got a huge red message:

"BMS_u031 Battery Fuse Requires Replacement Soon - OK to drive, schedule service"?

Turns out telsa doesn't actually KNOW if the fuse needs to be replaced - you have to bring it in (google BMS_U031) It is several hundred dollars to replace.

If your car has a 12v battery, it will eventually die. The battery is fairly expensive.

actually, most maintenance stuff is hidden away. Wish I could unhide it, even if tesla only did it when out of warranty.

Funny experience with vw - is had front brake pad sensors. Ofc rear pads wore off and never tripped any sensor...

Wait, Tesla does not have that?

If not, that is really, really dumb, and there is no way to justify not doing that. Especially for car that probably has more sensors, electronics and software than most cars (that also provide such info).

What prohibits you from going to the service center yearly or every 10k miles?

Assuming this, no scheduled services, is Tesla policy, it is very well possible that Tesla doesn't have task lists in place for said checks. Which would be bad...

Tesla has some recommendations in user manual. I almost bought model y. So I saw, that there is recommendation to check brakes after winter and salty roads or something alike. I also guess, that any other repair shop could do generic check as well. Teslas have brakes, suspensions, brake fluids and many other “normal” parts.

Sure, Tesla has some things in the user manual. A workshop so needs specific task lists in the workshop manual, otherwise the inspection varies by day and person doing it. Because without said workshop manuals, mechanics are left out in the cold with regards to what has to be done. Propably includes a liability risk, you follow approved check lists from the OEM and you are propably save if something happens. You don't, miss something, an accident happens and the liability question is a lot less clear.

There is no specific task list in the workshop manual. I had cars and motorcycles of various brands and, except for Mazda, nobody has a good list, while Mazda pretends to have one. Even in good car shops, brand or no brand, including the one owned by my family, there is no official list for a "good check", they just ask you: "what do you want checked?". Why? Because if you ask them to check everything, like Mazda says it does, it will cost a lot for little benefits. And car shops will be happy to charge labor for "checks".

The best checks I get is when I ask my cousin (owner of a car shop, certified to do inspections): "take my car for a couple of days as your daily driver, if you notice anything wrong then fix it". Otherwise the official testing includes: suspension and direction (includes indirectly wheel bearing), brakes, emissions, headlight alignment, rust or corrosion signs, tire integrity and wear vs indicator, brake fluid level, antifreeze level, washer fluid level, signs of fluid leakage in the engine compartment or at wheels. That's it.

I read the instruction manuals from all my cars and motorcycles. They are a minimum, in my opinion, I check myself a lot more, regularly.

Funny, the workshop manual, true it is a single one from the 80s, has quite detailed interval tasks listed. And the detailed instructions later, identified by task code. On top of that, it includes all / most steps regarding diagnostics. And, obviously, detailed instructions regarding repair and replacement of bits and pieces. I never bothered checking those manuals for modern cars so, first I don't do that work and second there is only so much one can do anyway.

20k Bosch diagnostic tester has the Tesla service plan: https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/bosch-integrat... If workshop does not have diagnostic equipment… one shouldn’t bring their car from this century there.

did they remove the service plan? My Model S came with a 4 year service plan where every quarter they would flush the coolant, filters, etc

Every quarter? Even when driving a 15 year old combustion car I have never had a car that needed to go for service that often! My new EV has a two-year service interval to check the coolant and brakes.

It wasn't too long ago you were supposed to do an oil change every 3000 miles which for the average American will happen in less than a quarter.

That stopped in the late 80s / early 90s... Heck, even my V8 (technologically from the 60s) has oil changes every 6k miles...

I generally do my oil every 7500 miles using full synthetic.

When I take it in for service I assume they don’t use the expensive stuff and chnage it at 5k miles.

Either way, that’s 2x a year for me. I’m probably below average driving at just shy of 15k miles/year. I think the average is around 15k though. That would be 2-3 oil changes if you did them at similar intervals.

Some companies (ie: BMW) mandate more frequent chnages and higher octane gas etc etc. I don’t use those cars. If I can’t service them myself I won’t buy it (Tesla included)

Seems so, the official owners manual foresees some maintenance, but there is no regular service schedule.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-E95DAAD...

Edit: interestingly, the German link seems to show something else: https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/de_us/GUID-E95DAAD...

Doesn't it show you when to do some maintenance based on sensors? BMW has a display that has miles on it, but those miles are only rough estimates. It may say 50k miles after replacing brake pads, but 40k miles later that could have changed to zero or it could only reach zero after 60k miles. The indication for service is based on a sensor at the brake pad, not a service interval in miles.

You could go to a third party garage. The mandatory state inspections will detect the safety issues too.

Not sure if sarcasm

But ... why ? Why did you have 4 Teslas in ~10 years ?

I'm really curious, why are you buying an electric car in the first place ?

Cause it's sure as hell not for the sake of saving the planet.

Probably the same reason people go through a BMW every few years: leasing cars so you are always driving new cars.

Probably this, yeah. Lease cars as part of your work comp are relatively common in the tech sector here.

Which is nice for us middle earners since we get those almost new models a lot cheaper.

For the same reason, it's also nice for top earners with a healthy attitude towards cars.

Why is it unhealthy for people who have the discretionary income to want to spend it on newer, higher featured cars? Seems like a simple preference.

This system is overall so nice for everyone involved.

Middle earners drive new cars. Those cars are regularly i spected and repaired. Then sold. Obviously your milage might vary (some sales representatives drive a lot every day), but often those cars are nice.

Cars coming back from lwasing, if bought with a new warranty, are great value. Especially after Covid, those 2020/2021 model years tend to have incredible low millage.

Lease cars as part of your work comp are relatively common in the tech sector here.

It's not treated as income by the tax authorities? If so, I'd rather have them hand me cash instead so I can get the car I want, and won't be out of a car when I'm laid off/quit.

In Belgium and Luxembourg, it's considered as taxable benefit and the amount is based on the type of car.

You usually end up paying 200-300 €/month as tax directly deduced from your salary but for that amount you have a new car with all the servicing included, even tires.

A few years ago, it was part of the standard salary package for many companies in IT so you weren't really without a car when leaving.

Some places where strict on the kind of car you can have (small cars for junior, Mercedes for management) but other places just provided you with a monthly budget so you could get whatever you want. You could also pay the difference to have a better car.

why are you buying an electric car in the first place

When you compare the current Model 3 feature-wise to most other brands, it's a no brainer. You need to fork out a lot more than 50k to get the assist and safety features, leather seats, seat heating, power seats, cameras, sound system, heated steering wheel, matrix headlights, backseat control screen, 4wd, performance and so on. Not having to deal with sales people and regular maintenance are bonuses.

And if you're in Europe, you charge it a home or on street parking with no hassle of going to a charging/gas station.

4 cars in 10 years is 3 cars too many.

4 cars in 10 years is 3 cars too many

If you’re constantly totalling them, sure. If you’re re-selling, it’s totally fine to show a preference for new vehicles. I don’t. But I also don’t care that much for cars or driving; to each their own.

it’s totally fine to show a preference for new vehicles

If you don't care about your environmental impact. I'm getting tired of these talking points where you shouldn't assume any kind of responsibility for your "preferences".

Could you please sell everything you have, give it to a charity and live in the woods?

I'm getting tired of every discussion diverging into a 'environmental impact' judgment message from anonymous.

This is the same argument as "don't complain, someone has it worse" and it's a flawed one.

Fallacy of relative privation.

If you don't care about your environmental impact

My point is the environmental effect is de minimis. Possibly positive. The old car is still being driven, just by someone else. Given it’s an EV, it’s likely—on the margin—pushing an ICE vehicle off the road.

This is logically sound when phrased like this but it is not the reality. Studies show you should drive a car into the ground to achieve maximum environmental benefit (or minimum impact is more accurate)

This is realized when you look at vast junkyards of unused cars in the US.

Studies show [...]

1. source?

2. what is their methodology for "maximum environmental benefit", and how do they account for the fact that when you buy a new car that costs 5 tons CO2e to produce and sell it 2 years later, that you're not on the hook for all 5 tons of emissions? That said, the cost of buying cars every 2 years probably isn't zero either. There are transaction costs and at the margins you're probably pushing the average lifetime of a car ever so slightly lower, thereby causing more emissions to be generated from manufacturing. However on the flip side, OP mentioned that he was doing this with teslas (ie. electric cars), and they're better for the environment compared with ICE cars. If his actions are displacing used ICE cars, he could be actually doing a net good by effectively subsidizing the replacement of ICE cars with electric.

The tight used car market begs to differ.

n=1

Well, N=4 in this case. But sure its no research

I have a 2017 Model S and two of my buddies bought Model 3/Ys two years ago, neither of us ever had any serious issues, except for the random rattle in the cabin every now and then. The finish is clearly not very high quality, but the car and all the systems have worked flawlessly so far.

Although the submission title says "Faults by Car Brand", the article is actually about specific models, where Tesla's Model 3 scored the lowest.

Having any serious issues with a few years old car is a problem. Id consider that a lemon. If you've had that experience multiple times from the same manufacturer...

I think report by TUV does not differentiate how quickly problem is solved. The issue is that problems are frequent. When buying new car I don't want to go to service more than once a year. Twice at most.

There is anecdata and data. The TÜV Süd report is the latter.

I assume that you only drove each car 3 years max?

After 3 years a car has to be inspected for the first time by law in Germany. Maybe you just didn't know something was wrong? Because usually people have their car inspected before going to the mandatory "Hauptuntersuchung" (HU) which Tesla apparently doesn't recommend, thus Teslas failing the HU en masse.

The low friction tires are less durable afaik. I've noticed this in practice with the comparison between my plugin and others full electric which almost always have those kind of tires. N=1 of course.

Edit: also, the APK is only after the first 4 years, and does not check things like brake fluid (which you should replace now and then) and things like bearing wear unless it becomes so obvious that it is affecting driving chacteristics. The APK does not check a lot of wear and tear so you should still do regular checkups.

Edit: maintenance is not mandatory. Only when it would be in violation of the APK, and by that time you damaged more than you should have.

Its a utopica to think EVs somehow need less upkeep.

EVs objectively need less upkeep compared to engine cars because a substantial portion of maintaining a car is related to the engine and transmission.

An EV still requires maintenance like repressurizing tires; replacement of worn out tires, brakes, and wiper blades; refilling of fluids like the windshield cleaner; and so on in addition to anything EV specific, but that's all still far less compared to engine cars.

never had any serious issues that were not addressed immediately.

okay but how many serious issues have you had?

Why do you think there's a longer interval between inspections for Teslas? The interval for Hauptuntersuchung in Germany (which this article is about) is 2 years (except for the first one which happens after 3 years), regardless of car brand.

And a windshield wiper needing replacement wouldn't count as a "significant fault" that they force you to come back for before getting certified.

Inspection interval is the same, but maintenance interval is different.

And this is about inspection interval.

And my claim is that during a yearly maintenance any faults are found and corrected before the HU inspection. If you don't have a yearly maintenance then you have a longer time period for faults to develop. Or for items to expire, like a first aid kit.

Not German, but I do wonder if it's common to schedule your oil change and other maintenance just before your state inspection. I would certainly do that; get the dealer to fix all pending issues and get the car into tip-top shape just before a mandatory inspection. If this is the case, you would expect more problems with Tesla, as there isn't a dealer mechanic minimizing issues just before inspection.

In the UK, “service and MOT” was standard practice.

I think it specifies in the article that the interval is longer because Teslas don’t need oil

This is faults found during a scheduled inspection

This implies we need an inspection regime in America. We’ve counted on servicing to catch unsafe cars. I hadn’t thought of that as something that changed.

Many states (or all the ones I have lived in anyway) have regular, mandatory inspections.

A lot are only checking emissions and lights.

States that do safety inspections are generally more thorough.

Virginia: https://vsp.virginia.gov/safety-and-enforcement/vehicle-safe...

Massachusetts: https://www.mavehiclecheck.com/motorists-basicinfo#Safety

Those are the only two states I've lived in. I don't get why so much of the country doesn't do these; it seems the Northeast of the US almost all require periodic safety inspections and the western US does not.

Missouri's inspection is on par with CT and VA from my experience. But that's the only midwest state I have lived in.

If I had a hunch, income plays a part. Flyover states are poor, that means older and more beat up cars. Older cars (out of warranty let's say) are more costly to fix. States have to balance "people need a car to make money" with "people need money to drive safe cars".

At least where I have lived if there is an emissions check it is a separate test. I think the inspections I have had to do involve brakes, lights, steering/tie rod, windows (no cracks/chips), exhaust, and I think in VA the engine light could only be on for frivolous things.

This implies we need an inspection regime in America.

Many states require yearly inspections already.

Fifteen states have a periodic (annual or biennial) safety inspection program, while Maryland requires a safety inspection and Alabama requires a VIN inspection on sale or transfer of vehicles which were previously registered in another state. An additional 16 states require periodic emissions inspections.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_Unit...

How is this not an indication of quality? They're not inspecting cars for kicks and giggles, they're inspecting them to make sure you're not hurtling a death device that will kill you and fellow drivers on the autobahn.

Because faults can include items such as the first aid kit expired, tyre inflator expired, headlights out of alignment, a crack in the windshield wiper, worn tyres, worn brakes, or low washer fluid.

These are not initial build quality issues.

All that is a defect, not all of which fail the inspection. Tesla Model 3s fail, among other things, tires, suspension and brakes, aka the stuff that holds a car on the road.

All of these fail an inspection. If you are at a mechanic they may fix these issues during a pre-inspection if they have parts available.

Expired First Aid kit? Common enough all inspection places I know sell them. Windshield cracks? There is hardly anythinh more obvious, and in Germany repaired / replaced for close to nothing. Unalligned headlights are a hard fail, true, as are worn / too old tires and brakes.

I got notices for worn wipers and too low wiper liquid, but never a hard fail. Unless there were other hard fails on the list, then they got added. That happened once so far, the most serious issue being the not properly working headlights (still have to track down the wiring issue). Never failed for tire inflators, never saw those being checked or asked for.

But again, Teslas Model 3's issues are mainly suspension, brakes and steering it seems. Together with constantly worn tires on one side only, I'd guess the whole suspension design, geometry and load distribution is bad by default. Most of the time this tire wear patterns are user errors, aka bad tuning attempts and tire choices, bad tire pressure...

Worn tyres is ofent an alignment issue. Worn brakes is ofent rust problems.

But ye it is an indirect measurement.

Yeah the presence of Dacia at the bottom leads one to suspect correlation with other factors, given that Dacia are quite reliable by design (they literally take the most reliable parts from the Renaults of 10+ years ago and repackage them as new models)

As you say, I suspect the lack of scheduled maintenance significantly impacts the ratings here

Dacias are definitely not reliable.

But also there's no bitter taste in your mouth if something is broken. Also you can buy new Dacia every 2-3 years and not be financially ruined

Dacia Logan is one of the cheapest, probably frequently the cheapest car that can be bought in Germany.

So a low reliability in exchange for a very low purchase price is to be expected.

For the price of a Tesla, you could buy a large number of Dacia Logan, to use another one whenever one breaks down.

So Tesla should better improve their quality, to no longer be comparable to the cheapest existing cars.

There are also faults and faults. A defective oxygen sensor on an ICE vehicle is easily diagnosed and replaced within minutes. Squeaking interior and misaligned doors from the factory - not so much.

Squeaking interiors and misaligned doors are not “significant faults” at TUV.

This year Tesla is ranked middle of the pack by CR but '21 and '22 it was bottom 5 for reliability, not to mention that whole Rueters article from last week.

Like this isn't the data point.

CR is biased garbage

Yeah, it's a bit odd. Combustion cars have less registered failures... because they're serviced more often? So more servicing = fewer failures at the time of this test. Duh. That doesn't say anything about the robustness of the car yet.

This makes me a feel a lot better about choosing a Toyota over a Tesla back in 2019.

The one unforgivable thing about the Toyota is the infotainment system. What a blight on humanity.

But otherwise, such a great car. I’ve never really liked cars until this thing. It’s so comfortable, reliable, cheap to maintain, and makes all of our trips like camping and mountain biking such a joy. The Tesla would have been such a headache in comparison, I think.

At the time I was certain it would be the other way around, but charging networks weren’t sufficient in the places we travel yet. I’m glad that’s the way it went now.

Toyota has never understood infotainment software. It’s my one and only complaint of the brand after owning many of their cars. They need to just give up.

I never understood why a car company would WANT to do better than a software company. Just make something with fully integrated CarPlay or Android auto with a failsafe for rentals or those without phones that don’t want to pair.

If you want the fully featured maps, guidance just pair your phone. Done. CarPlay is leagues beyond anything I have seen otherwise in an infotainment system.

I actually suspect this is a cultural thing with Japan and feature phones being a pretty dominant thing. Maybe they just don't see the priority in Carplay.

feature phones are not a dominate thing in japan.

https://www.soumu.go.jp/johotsusintokei/whitepaper/ja/r04/ht...

86% of the population owns a smartphone. That's higher than the USA

To anyone not into cars I'll give a simple advice: unless you really do a lot of high-speed highway driving (that'd be 80mph+ / 130km/h+, european highways speed), simply buy a Toyota.

I don't think you can go very wrong buying a Toyota.

And this comes as a german cars lover.

The only reason wife traded her Toyota CH-R for a BMW is because we do lots of (european) highway driving and we felt the CH-R was too noisy on the highway (at 80 mph: at 55 mph it's totally fine).

Buy a Toyota, make sure to do the maintenance needed in official Toyota dealership so you can extended the Toyota warranty for as long as possible.

And you're good to go.

Or the Lexus version of the Toyota with a few hundred kilos of extra sound proofing, for quiet highway driving.

Right? It's remarkable seeing people here defending Tesla while saying "I've only had a few major issues in four years"

I've had a Hyundai for ten years and literally crashed it into a tree and it had no major issues for five years after that (and I gave it away and it ran for another five until it protected someone from a head on collision!). Now I'm on a ten year old Honda and haven't don't anything except regular maintenance.

It's wild to see people saying they have only had a few issues with a car a couple of years old. That's a problem!!

which model Toyota?

Even Toyota is moving in that direction. They put their remote start under a subscription model and to my knowledge haven’t backed off it despite the initial backlash. [1]

And GM is removing CarPlay and android auto entirely from their head units. Under the guise of “safety”.[2]

Frankly unless consumers react strongly, I don’t see the car industry righting the ship with their anti consumer crap.

I have a 2009 Toyota. Arguably the sweet spot for features. Have a backup camera integrated into the tailgate but minimal otherwise computerized stuff. The A/C controls are the traditional 3 dial setup which is ideal for me, I can adjust it without looking down at all. I had to pull over to turn off the heat when I borrowed my in-laws F-150 for a day. I did swap the head unit for a kenwood with wireless CarPlay and integrated dashcam.

Given what I had seen from new models, I’m going to be sticking with my 09 Tacoma for a while longer at least.

Even my wife’s 2018 Honda Pilot had surging issues at low RPMs that was caused by dirty transmission fluid. Nothing that would throw an error, luckily my mechanic had just seen the same issues before. Her car has had more issues than mine honestly.

[1] https://www.thedrive.com/news/43329/toyota-made-its-key-fob-...

[2] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/03/gm-confirms-its-droppin...

I’ve thought about buying a Tesla for years now but stories like this have dissuaded me. I would have hoped that issues such as these would have been resolved by now. But, I’m glad that the other auto makers are starting to finally bring some competition in the EV market.

I don't own a Tesla but this brand is so volatile when it comes to internet forums, I wouldn't let it sway you.

Talk to a person IRL that doesn't sit on social media and ask how they like it.

This is like going to the Dell laptop support forums and concluding that 100% of Dells are bad.

Because Musk is an idiot it's fashionable to hate on Tesla. But there are plenty of us out there who have had an amazing experience. We had one minor issue in 4 years and it was fixed extremely promptly. The car is amazing.

I drive a f150 lightning, and honestly there is no competition. The Tesla is still a much better vehicle.

This seems to indicate suspension problems are common, despite being part of the drivetrain: https://www.carscoops.com/2023/12/tesla-model-3-ranked-last-...

The only mechanical fault I've had with my model 3 in five years of ownership was the bushings in the front upper control arms (part of the suspension, for anyone unfamiliar with car suspension parts.) Tesla replaced the UCAs under warranty. This occurred at around 50k miles, which is a fairly early but not unheard of failure timeframe (normally, I'd expect UCAs to to last around 100k miles and for it to be a crap shoot as to whether the bushings or the ball joint fail.)

Oh, okay, it's just the brakes that are degraded folks, nothing to see here!

...really? One of the core elements of your car, the one that will kill you if it fails, is degraded, and that's not a big deal? What will it take?

It's not "degraded" if it has rust. Brakes rust if you look at them too hard and then they clear up when you brake again.

And some surface rust doesn't fail inspection. For that we clearly are in not-working-properly-and-potentially-a-safety-hazard territory.

Yes, I tend to agree, it sounds fishy, but I don't speak Germany but from the google translate of the TUV site and then some accounts of people here, it sounds like they do fail for normal surface rust. One or two people mentioned anecdotes that the inspectors have told them to go drive around and brake heavily before coming back.

Yes, you do that drive around to remove surface rust and allow the inspector to peoperly inspect the brakes. This drive around is not recorded as a failed inspection, if the brakes fail after, then it is recorded.

> boil down to surface rust on the braking discs

You don’t fail for surface rust, it’s not a check that’s done.

You fail for dangerous imbalance of braking force. When the car is run on the drum roller (rolling road powers the cars wheels) and the inspector presses the brakes, the braking force applied by the car is measured. You get a fail if your braking performance is likely to unsettle the car in high braking force scenarios.

Failing here is a real problem. It doesn’t warrant a dismissive surface rust claim.

Tesla does already periodically apply brakes even when regen would be enough to keep on top of surface rust. Tesla even applies brakes when excess water is detected:

“To ensure brakes remain responsive in cold and wet weather, Model 3 is equipped with brake disc wiping. When cold and wet weather is detected, this feature ...”

This has been a common feature on many brands for around 10 years at this point.

The manual clearly states that the breaking discs need to be cleaned every, what was it, 25k km. Thats a job for a mechanic. Also in the DIY section it says that the brakes should be burnished as well.

You mean grinded down? I don't think you can clean the discs when they are rusty.

If a workshop has to do it the rust is quite bad and there are groves. Otherwise you can use the pads.

Do you have any source to support this claim? Or from what do you conclude this?

Other car manufacturers have implemented occasional breaks using the breaking discs for years. I don’t know why it should be fine to not do that

I don’t understand this. Brake rotors will flash rust in a light drizzle when parked. And rust on the rotors causes drag for the first few wheel rotations, it doesn’t compromise the system.

Many of these Tesla TÜV inspection faults boil down to surface rust on the braking discs.

Unless your inspector has a particularly bad day, you will not fail the inspection for this. They might also simply ask you to do a five minute drive and brake hard a few times. If the brakes are still in a safe condition, this should be sufficient.

Tesla's roll out of the factory with things out of limits all the time. Headlights being a big thing, not adjusted within the rules for the TUV (or Dutch APK) even when the car is brand new.

I swear that most model 3's I see in Europe have their headlights adjusted up so high that they're still looking for German aircraft. It's blinding.

Indeed, they seem all misaligned. Often one light is used for aircraft defence and the other to shine directly into potholes.

Quality assurance after assembly is apparently not a thing for Tesla.

Same down here in Australia. Every blinding incoming car is a Dodge Ram size truck where the lights are so high blind you from above and model Ys where they seem to point up into incoming cars.

The LED revolution of car headlights is a damnation.

Isn't the "no services" one of the things that all Tesla owners advertise?

That's just freedom of speech[1] /s

[1] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/tesla-claims-its-f...

That article relates to self-driving, not faults. Reliability is a big enough topic that it’s hard to read this comment as much more than cruelty.

But seems like the attitude towards freedom of speech applies also to other parts of the marketing strategy of Tesla, no?

Reliability could be a bigger argument, but let's be honest at a certain point, the Tesla price point should at least make it score higher than low end cars in the linked chart, don't you think so?

Oh yes, maintenance on condition! Great concept, but it requires regular inspection to appraise said condition. Otherwise it is just "until failure".

It doesn't work. Tesla Model 3 is the car model that fails most often for it's age. Model Y has not been on the German roads in high amounts for enough years yet, but I fully expect it to overtake Model 3.

Model 3 fails because of rusted brakes and failing suspension for example.

https://www.carscoops.com/2023/12/tesla-model-3-ranked-last-...

No experience with Tesla specifically , but usually the manufacturer has recommended checks at certain amounts driven or a certain time elapsed. Some people follow those and have their cars checked at those points, others don't. But according to this article Tesla has no such system.

Then there is the TÜV, which is a mandatory check for all cars usually every 2 years. So this seems pretty similar to your country, just with different intervals.

I owned almost a dozen Dacia's, but not the Logan. I never got to a car shop for any repairs until I had one with warranty, otherwise I was doing all the repairs on my own, including engine rebuilds and even a chassis swap (brand new car totalled in a crash, bough a new chassis and swapped every single part to it).

So, labor was cheap, parts were cheap, cost of ownership was cheap :)

Sounds like you are not valuing your time.

I’ve found that for basic service stuff it takes less time and cost than futzing with garages.

I was a poor student at that time with no opportunities, fixing my car was cheaper than paying someone else to do it: my time was tax free (50% tax on labor).

Yeah mine is doing ok (2018 Duster). Hasn’t needed anything major doing to it other than tyres brakes and normal service stuff. Driving it to Iceland this year from UK via Norway so will probably kill it at some point.

And this is exactly why that report is somewhat misleading. On the cheaper end of cars, a lot of those are not maintained regularly, and this is the reason why they fail in the first place. And if you look closely, in most cases the reason for the fail has something to do with lights or brakes or tires. Stuff which does not cost much to fix in a Dacia, but is crazy expensive on the upper end, BMW etc.

I had the first major issue with my Dacia since I bought it 7 years ago, and it had something to do with the LPG installation, and it was about 1000€. From a TCO standpoint of view, that car is so dirt cheap, only my little Seat Mii (CNG) - which I bought used, is cheaper.

On the cheaper end of cars, a lot of those are not maintained regularly,

Heh, by this logic Tesla as somehow expensive brand should be wa-a-ay below Dacia.

Exactly this. My Duster cost me 6 years of Mercedes service fees to buy outright.

https://apnews.com/article/tesla-autopilot-recall-driver-mon...

That recall still doesn’t fix the underlying issue with the autopilot.

The underlying issue is with the driver not paying attention to the road.

Which can't be fixed before lvl 5 self-driving.

Cant be? You can take agency over your own life today and start looking at the road. Autopilot is a wonderful tool, I use it every day and it considerably reduces exhaustion, I dont care about this white rabbit of level 5 self driving. The car tells you to watch the road, tesla did their part, if someone causes an accident by not watching the road, they should be held accountable the same as anyone else.

Watching the road simply isn't enough. You need to be alert and ready, which is countered by the system that lulls you into a false sense of security and makes you doze off.

"Tesla did their part" is such a lazy cop out.

Thats like saying shoes give you a false sense of security, perhaps, but its still your responsibility that you werent watching for a nail sticking up, its not nikes fault for making a good feeling shoe. User error.

That's not the same at all. No shoe is created to automatically walk and avoid sharp objects.

Yea neither are teslas, read the fine print.

Price drops. Cars depreciate but to have a $10-15K price drop right after I purchased really sucked. For this reason alone, I will never buy a Tesla again.

Aren't all cars like that?

They dropped the price of a new model a few times recently which meant used cars dropped that much more. I think that’s what is being referenced here.

Otherwise, the (mostly) static nature of Tesla models kept the used Tesla market in decent shape

Yeah, say I brought the car for $70K. 2 weeks later Tesla reduced the price by $12K. So, it's now $58K, and then you add depreciation...If I were to sell the car today (within 1 year of buying) I'd be looking at $35-40K!

I bought a GTI in 2018 for $28k. I could fetch North of $20k for it today. Granted its light mileage (37.5k miles). It's still held its value because it was a sub-$30k popular vehicle in a good year for reliability and going into a period of car scarcity.

The big factor is how far above the $30k floor do you reach. A rav4 hybrid keeps a much higher percentage of its value than a rav4 prime.

My Maverick went up in price after I bought it at MRSP. But that was a market anomaly.

There’s usually a drop some but that amount is excessive.

Steering assist (automatic lane and speed control) is quite handy. I never felt the need for trying out autopilot.

Steering assist + TACC is what Autopilot is.

You're probably confusing it and Enhanced autopilot (changes lanes, takes exits) or FSD (city streets BS).

That being said, Autopilot is IMO the best of their software, EAP is like a midpoint and FSD "Beta" will actively try to kill you at times (personal experience).

I do agree with your battery points though. If I tap into the Tesla API for my car right now they even have three ranges calculated out (time of sale stated, ideal, and real).

What is your solution for people that have two or more childrens in two different schools when road covered in ice or 3in of snow? Or when its -17 celsius outside?

that's a strawman

most people don't have young kids or have snow covered roads

150mln kids are born each year.

Approximately 40% of the world's population lives in regions that experience snowfall.

Could you go to the internet and check meaning of strawman argument?

Even in walkable and cyclable European cities, we'd been priced out long time ago. You'll not be the smiling person on a bicycle from promotional city leaflet, you'll live 30 km from the city and commute in dacia duster.

While my toddler might love that idea, my wife and the police wouldn’t.

can just buy another

There is already commenter here claiming that all 4 Teslas they owned were reliable.

That's stupid in more ways than one. These breakdowns sometimes cause accidents.

Perhaps used to be true. Other car prices have caught up with Tesla.

Just a few weeks ago, you could buy a brand new Model 3 in the US for ~$30k with incentives. I don’t consider that to be particularly expensive for a new vehicle.

Motor oil isn't used in lubricating axle bearings or the gearbox. Those latter two are, in modern cars anyway, lubricated for "life". If Teslas, again no idea if that's the case, failed to design those components to not require regular maintenance, and then fails to define proper service intervalls, it is purely on Tesla and not the fact that we talk about EVs. Because EVs from brands with a dense service network (which is a significant revebue driver, no idea how a company can miss that) performba lot better than Tesla in the TÜV report.

Those latter two are, in modern cars anyway, lubricated for "life".

I don't believe there is a modern gearbox where the manufacturer of said gearbox says it never needs oil changes. The vehicle manufacturer might say that, but not the gearbox manufacturer.

Case in point - my 2021 Wrangler has a ZF 8 speed auto that Jeep says never needs an oil change. ZF says it needs an oil and filter change every 100,00km.

"Life" is open for discussion and definition. Going with ZF, the 8 speed is a great gearbox, saves the gearbox. Going with Jeep gets you a warranty replacement.

By the way, it is still possible Jeep modified the gearbox in some way, most OEMs do.

https://www.tuvsud.com/de-de/publikationen/tuev-report/maeng...

TÜV competitor DEKRA stopped publishing their "fault report" because most cars are nowadays fixed before being checked by Tüv/Dekra. ( https://www.dekra.de/de/dekra-gebrauchtwagenreport/)

That's why the buyer demographic of a car is the most significant factor in the ranking. Cars used by companies, seniors, wealthy individuals or cabriolets have a good ranking. Meanwhile cars bought majorily by frugal or smart customers (Dacia, Tesla) tend to have bad rankings. This is because it's much more cost efficient to let Tüv/Dekra check you car before doing any repairs. Also what is ignored in the ranking is that some faults are much more important than others. Afaik a bad parking light can have the same influence on the ranking as a broken down transmission.

I get "frugal", but exactly is smart about not properly maintaining your car?

The brakes are rarely used, so they begin to rust. Having fully functional brakes are mandatory even if you rarely use them.

I suppose it depends on what parts are rusty and how rusty. Surface rust on rotors is not really problematic. I'm wondering if it's a subjective visual inspection vs a test of brake function.

This. Surface rust on the rotors is a reason to fail the TÜV. Seldom used cars have the same issue.

So, what you are saying is, that preventive maintenence results in safer cars? Who'd have guessed...

Thing is so, while the ADAC reliability reports exclude brands running their "own" mobility services (often enough outsourced to ADAC, but that's a different story), TÜV data is neutral. And a statistically relevant sample, TÜV is still one of the biggest providers.

It sure means that other brands, with better results, fix certain issues when the inspection is done after maintenance. Which means that Tesla has bad quality cars and bad maintenance plans.

I think what he is saying, that there's a dealership service visit immediately before an inspection. That would certainly decrease inspection rejects.

A great way to manipulate inspection statistics.

No, a great way to maintain cars...

> I don't think a messed up suspension can be fixed with an OTA update

But one can sure try, right? Right?

I recall, at least some of the early models, using cheap TN panels designed only to last 5-6 years.

However they required multiple thousands to swap (iirc it was 3-5k) and the car was basically non-functional without it.

That is a very hard pass for me.

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/39065/tesla-claims-failing-tou...

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-computer-touchscreen-r...

Servicing is supposed to be preventative maintenance. If stuff is actually breaking, it not being done correctly - intervals or not.

Close - these aren’t service stats, they’re stats from legal inspections (every 2 years after the first 4 years I think?). So people who don’t service regularly (eg Teslas) will use these inspections as a check. Whereas people who do service regularly (all cars that need oil changes) will already have paid a mechanic to check

Missed a /s ?

TÜV should be relatively unbiased, that's literally their job. E.g. they post extensive reports on Total Cost of Ownership. Toyotas have less TCO than most VWs in those reports.

I think there’s also a reporting bias, for example I refuse to believe that Dacias have fewer nitpicks than Alfas, for example, it’s just that Alfa owners might be more ok with ignoring said nitpicks (ask me how I know, lol).