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Tesla blamed drivers for failures of parts it long knew were defective

chaosprint
81 replies
5d5h

I have no strong feeling on Musk, but Tesla is far from being a good product.

The vision based system is a disaster, I have been driving a new Model Y MY 2024 for several days and got the following issues:

1. the cruise speed control stops working for 2 times due to "low visibility" on a foggy day. No sound alert but the car just slows down on motorway, which is super dangerous. As a comparison, my previous Hyundai Ioniq 5 can do cruise on foggy day perfectly.

2. There is another time on a single lane, the vision system got confused with oncoming traffic on the opposite lane and made a sudden break. Such behaviour is extremely dangerous on icy road now. Hyundai never had this issue on single lane pilot.

3. When I was on auto steering, the car somehow got confused with a motorway exit and made sudden break on motorway again. As a comparison, Hyundai will tell u: "ok, now I am not sure what to do, you have to control your steer". Tesla tried to be the hero but did a terrible mistake on motorway and I am sure if bad things happen it will just blame users.

4. The vision based system is terrible for reversing. It makes around 20 false alarms every time I reverse into my garage. And the sound engineering is so amateur that it pops/clicks because Tesla team is too unprofessional to know they need a crossfade or envelope. High school student mistake.

5. I have no time to test the emergent brake but Tesla reported a "failure on emergent brake" and I am waiting for service for this. As a comparison, my previous ioniq 5 saved me several times with the brake on parking lot.

6. During my car delivery, I found two scratches on the b-pillar. After they replaced it, the key card is not working... waiting for service again. Some irresponsible people put the types on the back seat and damaged the driver seat leather... unbelievable...

I am considering returning it, but on the other hand, I can hardly find a good alternative in Europe for Model Y, which is sad. I have checked ID4, Ioniq 5, EV6, Polestar and many Chinese models. They do have some other issues.

Don't trust those reviews online. Their trial time is too short to tell u these issues.

Model Y is also poor on suspension, window noise. And the door is harder to close compared with ioniq 5 that I had quite some time with (around 2 months).

malfist
18 replies
5d5h

Your car has tried killing you on multiple occasions and you're only _considering_ returning it?

auggierose
10 replies
5d5h

I have no idea why people are even considering using auto pilot / cruise control. I would say, well, not my problem, let them be guinea pigs and kill themselves, but then again, they might kill me as a side effect.

This is clearly a failure of regulation. None of this should be allowed.

chaosprint
5 replies
5d5h

makes sense. cruise control does feel dangerous if there is a car trying to merge on the right. I have to cancel it and manually control every time.

onionisafruit
4 replies
5d4h

In driving school they taught us to never use cruise control when passing. It’s only to avoid leg cramps when driving multiple hours in rural highways.

auggierose
3 replies
5d3h

Unbelievable.

ksenzee
2 replies
4d21h

It’s unbelievable that you’re not supposed to use cruise control when passing? It sounds like common sense to me: you’re supposed to be accelerating to get past the other car.

auggierose
1 replies
4d21h

It's unbelievable that something so unreliable is allowed to be built into cars, and then people are learning work-arounds in driving school for it, instead of just getting rid of it entirely.

ksenzee
0 replies
4d1h

Cruise control has been around for decades, and is a tool for maintaining a constant speed. When you're passing someone, you should not be maintaining a constant speed. Cruise control is therefore the wrong tool for that situation. Driving school teaches you to use the right tool for that situation, which is the accelerator.

bigbillheck
3 replies
4d21h

Surely you don't mean "cruise control" in the classic sense of "maintaining a steady speed so you can take your foot off the gas" because that's been around since the 1950s and is well-established.

auggierose
2 replies
4d6h

I mean any mechanism that cannot be easily understood and predicted by the driver because "AI".

ksenzee
0 replies
4d1h

I agree wholeheartedly that unpredictable software is unacceptable in cars, and I drive an older model car specifically because it's not loaded with touchscreen software "features," but cruise control is the wrong target for your anger. It's old enough to be a retiree with a gold watch.

bigbillheck
0 replies
4d5h

Cruise control is as understandable as a turn signal.

chaosprint
5 replies
5d4h

There are many reasons. Tesla really makes the buying experience easy and delivery is fast. For other brand, I have to chat with different dealers and they always have some hidden terms and wiggling rooms for price. The interest rate for Tesla is also relatively low. perhaps they have some agreement with the bank.

The battery life and charging experience are perfect, and the car settings on single screen are also very easy. The app experience is also good, and I use the sentry function often.

So if I choose something else, maybe I’ll miss these too? As for safety issues, I think reversing is just ridiculous and annoying sound engineer (maybe because I am expert at music technology) but it has no safety concerns and can be fixed by firmware. for the autopilot issue, I just try not to use cruising as much as possible.

ceejayoz
2 replies
5d4h

Tesla really makes the buying experience easy and delivery is fast.

Bad news: Death machine! Good news: Death machine delivered quickly.

sifar
1 replies
5d1h

and conveniently.

actionfromafar
0 replies
4d21h

Give me convenience or give me death! Never had I imagined we could have both.

d3w4s9
1 replies
5d2h

Purchase and delivery are one-time things. It is in a past. Even if it is the best experience you can have in the world, it doesn't matter now. You don't buy a new car every day. You face the risk of hitting other cars every day.

A ten year old kid probably knows this well enough.

chaosprint
0 replies
4d19h

well if I don't use that pilot thing, it feels safe. and I have seen some tests that Tesla is as safe as Volvo. I doubt if any car cab offer 'perfect' autopilot system

jacquesm
0 replies
4d22h

I had two instances of emergency braking in a Mercedes and sold it the day after the second time. According to Bosch (the manufacturer of the radar subsystem) the system was just fine and that was my main reason for selling it, they didn't even want to test drive it across the two spots where their junk malfunctioned.

mtreis86
17 replies
5d5h

What are you doing that your parking brake is saving you in a parking lot (5)?

chaosprint
11 replies
5d4h

It brakes before I reacted to some potential crashes. I might have noticed them but the brakes are really impressive.

Kye
10 replies
5d4h

It sounds like you might mean something different by emergency brake than I think most non-Tesla drivers expect. I've always called the lever/pedal with a direct mechanical link to the brakes the emergency brake. Is this a thing on Teslas?

supermatt
3 replies
5d4h

Isnt that a parking brake? Ther is an "e-brake" which AFAIK is basically an electronically actuated parking brake.

I thought an emergency brake was a technique, rather than a device? At least, thats how I understand it in the UK.

Kye
2 replies
5d4h

One of its functions is to allow you to slow down and maybe stop if the hydraulics fail. It's also called a parking brake, but that's an anachronism for cars with automatic since they have a parking mechanism. Using it to park is still a good idea to keep it functional so it's there in an emergency, and in case the parking mechanism fails. Some people find this out the hard way!

onionisafruit
1 replies
5d4h

I don’t know about modern cars, but people used to say that parking an automatic on a slope without the parking/emergency brake would damage the transmission’s “parking pin” and make the “park” gear equivalent to “neutral”. No idea how true that is.

lamontcg
0 replies
5d

Bigger issue is the human in the loop. If you always engage the parking brake when leaving the vehicle so that it becomes a reflex then you never forget. People will claim that this will never happen to them and that it is pointless to do on flat ground... Until one day they hop out of the vehicle with the engine running / key in ignition and not in park and it rolls away from them.

Next biggest issue is probably if the car gets hit hard enough to break the parking pawl. Parking brake could save it from rolling away.

The pawl itself is not a tiny pin and will take some abuse, but maybe if you talk to mechanics in SF where people park on hills they see them fail all the time? That isn't the primary reason why I'd suggest always using the parking brake, even on flat ground though.

chaosprint
2 replies
5d4h

sorry for the confusion. I am a new driver and so far I have only driven e cars

Kye
1 replies
5d4h

It happens. For an entertaining introduction to the original's use outside normal driving, watch some drifting videos.

Unfortunately, it looks like it's no longer possible with an electronic e-brake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RCFfThqbe8

tharkun__
0 replies
4d16h

It's also how I learned driving safety. Our safety instructor would make us (slowly) drive over a wet rubber road surface. He also made us evade an object, randomly having to go around it to the left or right. And then one time he'd just pull the handbrake without telling us while we tried to evade.

chaosprint
2 replies
5d4h

I had a warning on my Tesla app saying that the "emergency brake" has some issues and may restart to work on the next drive.

the "emergency brake" is also shown on Ioniq 5 screen every time it gets triggered.

So can "emergency brake" mean a different thing?

Sohcahtoa82
0 replies
4d21h

There's a confusion of terms here.

There's the "Emergency brake" (aka e-brake) which is a misnomer for what is actually the parking brake (not to be confused with the Park setting in an automatic transmission) or also called the hand brake for cars where this brake is a hand lever rather than an extra foot pedal.

And then there's "automatic emergency braking", which is a computer-controlled automatic brake that gets applied when it detects an obstacle.

Kye
0 replies
5d4h

Words take on new definitions all the time, but you already saw multiple people in here (me included) assume you meant the original and much older meaning. It's good to define new and unconventional uses when it's not clear from context, and it isn't here if (like most people) you've never driven a car with this function.

Kye
2 replies
5d4h

Doesn't everyone drift into parking spots to get them before someone else?

adrianmonk
0 replies
4d21h

Of course. Because Elwood Blues showed us the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wfwpHAwaME

TeMPOraL
0 replies
5d4h

Yeah, I gave up competing with you folks and switched to flying a helicopter instead - I now get to identify parking spots and drop into them like a brick, autorotating to a soft landing at the last second, before any of you fast and furious even realize the spot was free.

sathackr
0 replies
5d4h

It's the collision avoidance braking when parking in close quarters.

It applies the brakes automatically when you are within about 6 inches of an obstacle and moving towards it. Often false-fires when parallel parking in tight quarters or reversing with a bike rack attached.

This is a different, ultrasound-based system that had been on cars for about a decade now. It has limited range.

Not to be confused with the newer autonomous emergency braking systems that are radar-based(believe mm-wave radar) that has range more appropriate for road and highway speeds but has the limitation of not being able to differentiate stationary objects from terrain.

LeafItAlone
0 replies
5d4h

Probably avoiding people driving in parking lots like they are streets with added rage for finding a parking spot. See, for example, any Costco parking lot

sathackr
13 replies
5d4h

I have an ioniq 5 as well and recently drove a 2023 model 3. It had some nice features but overall reaffirmed my decision not to buy a Tesla when I bought the Ioniq 5.

The braking algorithm for the adaptive cruise control on the M3 was not nearly as good as my Ioniq 5.

False alarms for collisions, times to "TAKE CONTROL NOW" were massively increased over my I5. I have essentially no false alarms on the I5.

Thr driver attention monitor seems based on steering wheel deflection vs torque. Extremely often it decided my hands were not resisting it enough on the steering and commanded me to move the wheel slightly. Except the force required to do so enough to satisfy it was very near the force needed for it to automatically disengage. It was also enough force for the car to noticably swerve in the lane and the passengers to notice.

My I5 just needs a slight jiggle on the wheel. It still false alarms, thinking my hands were not on the wheel when they were, but massively reduced from the Model 3.

Then there was the time that I unbuckled my seatbelt to take off my jacket. The Model 3 had an absolute meltdown. Screaming alarms, autosteer disengaged immediately. It was a WTF moment compared to my I5.

Any time the lane would widen to accommodate an upcoming exit, the model 3 would move to the right to stay centered in what it thought were it's lane markings. Very dangerous. My I5 doesn't do this, it will stay going straight and alert you if it loses confidence in its ability to identify the lane.

The only thing the autosteer did better than my I5 was navigating curves. I think this is because the system in the I5 is limited to the turn rate it can command, and anything more than a gradual curve exceeds that. It will disengage and run you into the guardrail or ditch, if you are not payjng attention.

Many times I got a "corrective action applied for your safety" in the model 3 and never could figure out what was actually done or what the danger it was avoiding was. Many times it mistook parking lot line markings as obstacles.

brightball
4 replies
4d21h

I barely tap my wrist when it says "Apply slight turning force".

When it gives you the 2 handed graphic to take control that's more of an alarm it's because the in vehicle camera can see you're not looking at the road for an extended period of time. It did that to me one time when I was sending a text while stopped in a traffic jam.

The 2nd warning is really annoying and unclear about the level of force needed.

Also test drove an Ioniq 5 and we liked it a lot too. Definitely the top competitor from what we saw. Every other vehicle that approaches the features of the Tesla that we saw costs a crazy amount of money.

sathackr
3 replies
4d21h

Maybe it was something with the one I rented. The "slight turning force" was about 2 hairs away from "so much turning force that it disengages", and enough for a noticeable swerve in the vehicle path.

This one had a full FSD computer, and the depicted situational awareness on the screen was pretty neat with it classifying vehicles, pedestrians, construction cones, etc... but FSD was not enabled on the one I rented and was not able to be enabled since it was a rental.

brightball
2 replies
4d20h

I will say, the ownership experience is very different from the test drive experience.

When we test drove a model X a couple of years back we didn’t like it. Even after I test drove my current model 3 I was mostly doing it because it was essentially a free car. I was spending $500 / month in gas so the Tesla virtually paid for itself.

Owning it and getting used to all the features, configuration, using the app, the service experience, etc…it really changes things. I tell people all the time that I did not expect to enjoy this car as much as I do.

I’ve tried the FSD for 2 months and it’s really impressive. Not perfect though and I think the beta flag is warranted because of that. I love it on the highway in traffic. Anytime there are road cones it can be a little finicky though.

There are a lot of edge cases to deal with for FSD and that’s a big programming challenge.

sathackr
1 replies
4d12h

There were tons things they did right. And there's plenty that was done wrong in my Ioniq 5. It's been in the shop twice in 60k miles, which is 2x more in half the miles that my previous vehicle(Chevy Volt) was.

It seems google maps is what backs their nav system, which means it's the only factory-installed nav system that can even come close to competing with google/waze/apple maps.

The touch ui layout seemed to be pretty well thought out, so it's probably about as good as a touch ui can be for vehicle control.

It seems with all the raving over FSD that whatever system operates FSD is entirely separate than the system that operates autosteer, because autosteer tried to kill me(swerve right, into the exit/divider/barrier) at just about every exit I passed.

brightball
0 replies
4d3h

I loved the Volt. I leased/owned 2 different ones for 3 years each. It was a sad day when they stopped making them.

chaosprint
3 replies
5d4h

I don't like the autopilot at Tesla at all.

I forget to mention this: it tries to "punish" me by disabling the function if I don't put my hands there. But the fact is that I put my hand there all the time and Tesla is just too stupid to detect it...

Model 3 MY 2024 even cancelled the stalk, which is a terrible idea for roundabout .

sathackr
2 replies
5d4h

After seeing everything that was touch on the one I drove I was thankful at least the turn signals and wipers were physical.

Can't imagine trying to drive safely without those.

The layout of the touch UI was better on the Tesla. I question the I5 design teams sanity for making HUD controls and seat warmers take 5-6 touches to access.

whatshisface
1 replies
4d22h

I question the I5 design teams sanity for making HUD controls and seat warmers take 5-6 touches to access.

I guess the right thing to do is live like a king in a gas burning beater until people stop posting about insane problems like this!

sathackr
0 replies
4d21h

Yep.

This is a touch UI problem in general not specific to an EV.

For specifically the HUD, I'm often on dark rural roads at night where deer are extremely common.

The HUD is bright enough to affect my night vision in these roads so I turn it off when driving on them.

The GMC Acadia(gas burner) I rented had HUD controls as physical buttons on the dash to the left of the steering wheel. I push 1 button and the HUD is off.

The Ioniq 5? I don't have an exact count but it's 3-4 menu levels deep, probably takes 5-6 touches to get to it.

johnisgood
1 replies
5d2h

Based on these reviews, Tesla seems to want to avoid "OK, now I am not sure what to do, you have to control your steer" so much, to the point where it becomes extremely unsafe to drive it.

sshine
0 replies
4d18h

When dealing with a person who consistently won’t admit when they are wrong, it is better to assume they are generally wrong and act accordingly.

I didn’t try FSD, only Autosteer. There is a glitch on the road to work where Autosteer will jerk the wheel for a split second. It’s extremely alarming and it always occurs in the same spot, so it feels like bad road data.

I’ve learned to hold the wheel with a certain tension by default, leaning the car to the one side of the road. That negates this jerk.

maxdo
0 replies
4d21h

Try to use FSD , unlike a year ago , it’s really good . I’m in New York and I’m using it in the city , not to mention highway

chaosprint
0 replies
5d4h

haha yes, ioniq 5 seat heating is so poorly designed. It will start when I get in the car but I always feel too hot and have to manually touch the screen several times during driving to turn them off.

I also feel that ioniq 5 makes too many warning sounds during driving. most of these warnings are actually unnecessary.

davidkuennen
12 replies
5d5h

Look into the new ID7. I will get mine in a few months and from what I heard so far it's a damn good car. Everyone who tested it was thrilled.

fuzzy2
7 replies
5d5h

It has VW software, so… yeah. No doubt, all the ID.s drive great. Their usability otherwise is not good however. Especially the capacitive “buttons” on the steering wheel are atrocious.

have_faith
4 replies
5d4h

capacitive “buttons” on the steering wheel

Dystopian authors got it all wrong, this is what we should have been warned about.

rsynnott
3 replies
5d4h

The trouble is that they were presented as utopian; see Star Wars TNG’s obsession with them. The Enterprise D doesn’t have any real buttons at all.

hef19898
2 replies
5d4h

Just shows how far certification requirement dropped by the time of TNG. Nowadays, no Starfleet ship design would be certifiable.

Obviously joking, but the reason for this in TNG, as it is for cars, that it was cheaper. The same reason RBMK reactors are graphite moderated with a positive void coefficient.

rsynnott
1 replies
5d4h

Just shows how far certification requirement dropped by the time of TNG.

Well, see also the lifts; I’m pretty sure that over the course of the series the Enterprise alone had more catastrophic lift incidents than most _countries_ today have in like time. And the consoles which explode whenever anything happens. And the _bloody holodeck_. Clearly, at some point in the next century, some catastrophe kills off engineering as a discipline entirely.

hef19898
0 replies
5d4h

Next century? You, sir, are an optimist!

stiGGG
0 replies
5d4h

I regularly drive an ID3 and every ten minute or so I accidentally activate a button on the left side of the steering wheel. It’s happening in roundabouts, sharp turns or sometimes even on straights when I just adjust my hand position. The buttons on the left are for the cruise control which this car doesn’t have, so it’s always only showing an error on the driver screen, which is funny on it’s own, but probably a good thing in this case. The software has a lot of unforgivable quirks, but other than that it drives very well.

barrkel
0 replies
5d4h

FWIW, I've found the VW group software for traffic sign recognition significantly more accurate than BMW, and I like the lane assist, it's far less intrusive than other implementations I've driven. (I'm not including lane centering - I can't stand lane centering.)

(I base this mostly on comparing driving my Skoda Superb 2019 and a BMW 5-series touring estate rental with luxury trim on the same roads, a mix of city, urban and autobahn.)

chaosprint
3 replies
5d5h

It would be very hard for me to live without a car in Winter. But if ID7 has some inventory and I like it on test driving, I can sell Model Y and buy ID7 instead.

The waiting time is also the reason why I did not choose Volvo XC40 recharge.

spacehunt
2 replies
5d4h

The XC40 was in the middle of a refresh which might explain the waiting time. Availability should be much better now, and MY24 has some really nice upgrades.

chaosprint
1 replies
5d4h

yeah, but it's still based on CMA so the space is not best optimised I don't know how much will the new Polestar 4 cost but it looks more competitive than XC40

spacehunt
0 replies
5d3h

The transmission tunnel indeed is an issue, but they do use it as additional space for batteries to make the seating position a bit better for the rear left/right passengers.

Infinitesimus
6 replies
5d4h

Why did you get rid of the ioniq 5 then?

chaosprint
5 replies
5d4h

I used ioniq 5 on driving school and rented it for one month after I got my license.

- ioniq 5 has a terrible bug on its turning signal; it often automatically turns off at wrong points. since I use it so often, it's so annoying.

- ioniq 5 has no rear wiper, which makes it super dangerous to drive on snowy/rainy days. the air dynamics just cannot remove the water or snow on the rear window.

- another deal breaker is the driving experience, the car is harder to control than Tesla. at every turn I feel uncomfortable.

These three points bother me every minute I drive it.

and it's even more expensive than Model Y. :)

mrtksn
2 replies
5d4h

The lack of rear wiper is standart for most sedans.

I haven't noticed that until I tried to turn on the rear wiper in a car of a friend. Now all I can see on the road is the lack of wipers on sedans. Keep checking for wipers all the time, like an obsession and most sedans don't have it. It's probably not super dangerous, the sedan's shape allows for the airflow to flow along and clean it.

yardie
0 replies
5d4h

Sedans have a sloped rear window. In theory, laminar airflow is sufficient to clear any debris from it.

SUV/CUV have a nearly vertical rear window. This creates a pocket vortex where dust and water stick to the glass and there is no airflow to blow it off. And the Ioniq 5 is considered a CUV.

chaosprint
0 replies
5d4h

but ioniq 5 is not a sedan and its rear window is unusable due to the lack of rear wiper.

bigbillheck
1 replies
4d21h

I'm at a bit of a loss as to how you're getting snow on the rear window while driving, and in quantities so large for the rear defroster (which surely the ioniq has?) to not be able to keep up.

chaosprint
0 replies
4d19h

when it's snowy, it's some kind of mixture of snow and the melted. I just cannot see anything behind

basseed
5 replies
5d4h

"a sudden break"?? You mean it suddenly braked?

chaosprint
3 replies
5d4h

yes, it's really dangerous. I was shocked

malfist
1 replies
4d22h

They're making fun of you for using the wrong spelling of brake/break. I guess pedants don't have anything better to do.

ksenzee
0 replies
4d21h

No, in this case I think it’s fair to ask for clarification, since the whole point of the article is that things are suddenly breaking on Teslas.

semi-extrinsic
0 replies
5d4h

As someone who does not own a Tesla, but drives in a country where 25% of all new cars sold are now Model 3 or Model Y, we can all confirm this and it is now common wisdom to keep good distance if we are driving behind these vehicles. Beta testing in prod is great /s.

jacquesm
0 replies
4d22h

Not a native English speaker/writer, clearly.

snovv_crash
1 replies
5d5h

So why not the Ioniq?

chaosprint
0 replies
5d4h

Teals is better in terms of ordering experience, battery life, driving control, charging experience, interest rate and price, screen, space and design.

But yeah it's a hard choice. no car is perfect, at least Tesla is easier to sell as used car

maxdo
0 replies
4d21h

For visual system , you’re not on FSD , I’m one year on FSD and it’s much better , I heard they will rollout in 2024 FSD stack to EU . Car is a bit over alert on emergency break and I would say it is good but annoying

brightball
0 replies
4d22h

Tesla is far from being a good product.

I bought a used 2020 Model 3 in May. It's fantastic. Best car I've ever owned. Most fun to drive by a mile.

My wife and I went shopping to test drive cars for her recently. After experiencing the Tesla...everything else doesn't even compare, especially for the price.

If it's far from being a good product then every other vehicle on the market is much, much farther.

jgilias
61 replies
5d5h

“We make the best cars,” he [Musk] said of Tesla at a New York Times event last month. “Whether you hate me, like me or are indifferent, do you want the best car, or do you not want the best car?”

Ah, lol. You could’ve argued that Tesla was the best EV some years ago (not any car, mind you, just EV). But now? Since automakers who actually know how to make reliable cars have caught up on the EV part, that’s a pretty ridiculous claim.

mschuster91
24 replies
5d5h

Since automakers who actually know how to make reliable cars have caught up on the EV part, that’s a pretty ridiculous claim.

Most are still years behind Tesla on the range or software quality part. Ask any Volkswagen owner, their software has gone to shit.

On top of that they're rare in numbers. Tesla makes more cars in a quarter than BMW in a year, and it's obvious that the focus of the "classic" ICE car industry still lies on huge, gas guzzling, high-margin SUVs.

jgilias
10 replies
5d5h

I don’t want software from my car manufacturer. I want a thing I can cast Apple CarPlay on.

Regarding range, pretty much any EV with a comparable battery pack (kWh-wise) is a peer. And there’s plenty of those now.

wddkcs
8 replies
5d5h

You don't want software, you just want a thing that relies on software. Got it

mort96
7 replies
5d5h

They don't want software they have to interact with through the car's UI. Everything relies on software these days, I'm sure they want their brakes to keep working too which requires software, but I think what they tried to communicate came through pretty clearly.

wddkcs
5 replies
5d3h

You said it yourself- even braking requires software these days, so the statement 'i dont want software from my car manufacturer' clearly makes no sense.

Maybe you could say 'you don't want UI software from your car manufacturer' but that's obviously wrong for the market as well- what about users who don't have an apple, or who prefer not to use their phone at all? Cars are moving towards more tech integration, not less, so the entire idea of auto manufacturers not needing to focus on software makes no sense. Zooming back out to the larger point, Tesla is clearly leading the software battle, and that's a battle that matters for consumers.

ryandrake
1 replies
5d1h

Maybe I'm showing my age, but braking should not require software. It should be a pedal physically linked (through hydraulics or otherwise) to four sets of brake pads. Maybe an exception for ABS, but even then, ABS can obviously be implemented without software or even electronics.

scottyah
0 replies
4d19h

I get that brake lights can be mechanical, but man would those parts wear down and be unreliable. Also, having your trailer help with the braking is very nice (and communicated via wire).

piva00
1 replies
5d1h

That's an argument over semantics, having to preface any usage of "software" with a disclaimer about an exact meaning of it is not only cumbersome but pretty damn boring for any online discussion.

I don't think the original comment was made in a way that this nitpicking adds anything to the discussion. Cars have software for 30-40+ years if we interpret the way you are interpreting so it makes sense to ignore that meaning and actually reply to what was meant by the comment...

It's just very tiresome to have these semantics bickering when it's pretty obvious what was meant.

wddkcs
0 replies
4d14h

No less tiresome than your dismissal of my argument as semantics. I read the OP as asking to turn the center console into a dumb screen for use with a secondary device, or at least the allowance of any native casting software. That is obviously an absurd idea. Until Apple puts out a car, why would a car maker cede the center console to an indeterminate second platform? Do consumers want Apple play, or Android auto? No, they want the best possible navigation experience, and car manufacturers are not going to rely on third party platforms to deliver an increasing share of that experience (with music, navigation, games, movies) on that center screen. Forgetting even the customer benefit, automakers aren't going to pass on the monetization opportunities the console represents. [1]

My point might be overly deterministic, but it's not semantics. I'm saying software has already eaten the world, and if we're going to be making outrageous wishes, we should be wishing for the car companies to implement better UI software, not wash their hands of it. At least the former is achievable. Arguably, the latter isn't even desirable.

[1] https://www.hotcars.com/why-tesla-doesnt-include-apple-carpl....

mort96
0 replies
5d

I think the obvious interpretation is, "I want to be able to use my car without having to interact with its UI, I just want something I can cast CarPlay to". And that's understandable and unproblematic and doesn't imply that the car should be unusable without an Apple/Android phone.

Tesla's lack of CarPlay means it's far behind in the software battle for a whole lot of consumers.

ilikehurdles
0 replies
5d4h

This has gotten so far from the point of the original comment, which is that the software of VW and others is often worse. You’re not getting many buttons and nobs in those either, and the few you do don’t work all that well as they’re fake (capacitive) buttons now. You’ll be relying on the software UI for the bulk of the creature comforts of the car - not just stuff that can be replaced by CarPlay.

stingraycharles
0 replies
5d5h

Exactly. Tesla’s overuse of software for everything is a bug, not a feature. I want knobs and dials and something to cast CarPlay on, and that’s it.

kibwen
3 replies
5d5h

> Most are still years behind Tesla on the range

FTA: "In July, the news agency revealed how Tesla had created a secret team to suppress thousands of customer complaints about poor driving range. The report, which found that Tesla rigged an algorithm to inflate its cars’ in-dash range estimates, sparked a federal investigation."

cuu508
1 replies
5d5h

They are ahead in software side of things, so ... they fixed it in software :-)

acatton
0 replies
5d5h

Exactly, it worked for the Boeing 737 Max... for a while...

bonton89
0 replies
5d4h

The end game for surveillance capitalism. Recording everything you do, storing it out of your control and then falsifying the data to screw other people over. They'll probably only get a small fine for it so all they'll learn is to hide it a little bit better next time.

You think this information will be used to make things better for you the consumer? This is war, and you're the enemy.

878654Tom
3 replies
5d4h

Tesla makes more cars in a quarter than BMW in a year,

BMW Group produced 2,399,632 vehicles in 2022 (a decrease of 4,5% from 2021) with 2,100,689 being BMW's themselves.

Tesla produced 1,369,611 vehicles in 2022.

Not even sure where you heard that Tesla produced more cars than BMW.

mschuster91
1 replies
5d4h

Not even sure where you heard that Tesla produced more cars than BMW.

From BMW themselves. Barely 65k cars a quarter [1], that's about 260k a year. Tesla meanwhile makes over 400k cars a quarter [2].

[1] https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T041287...

[2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/715421/tesla-quarterly-v...

Kbelicius
0 replies
5d3h

From BMW themselves. Barely 65k cars a quarter

No, you did not get it from BMW themselves. What you did get from them is that they produce 65k EVs, not cars in general. They produce twice as many cars as Tesla.

hef19898
0 replies
5d4h

Some quarters are clearly different than others.

surfingdino
2 replies
5d5h

Volkswagen and other ICE car manufacturers are not IT companies like Tesla. They are holdings outsourcing design and manufacturing to Bosch, Magna Steyr, and others.

acatton
1 replies
5d4h

Yes, but they are doing another layer of quality control on whatever comes out of Bosch. Because at the end of the day, they can't blame Bosch for the bad quality of cars sold under their brand.

jedrek
0 replies
5d2h

I'd much rather have a door hinge[1] from Bosch, a company that has manufactured a billion door hinges[1], than from a company that's figuring out how to design and manufacture door hinges right now.

[1] these are hypothetical examples meant to illustrated a mechanism.

KaiserPro
0 replies
4d22h

Tesla makes more cars in a quarter than BMW in a year

bmw sold >2million cars in 2022, compared to tesla's 4.2million since 2008.

JKCalhoun
0 replies
5d5h

> it's obvious that the focus of the "classic" ICE car industry still lies on huge, gas guzzling, high-margin SUVs

Well you said it yourself, it's the margins. I guess we can blame people then for paying those margins, buying those huge, gas-guzzling SUVs.

Meanwhile Tesla releases a huge (albeit not gas-guzzling in the traditional sense of course) pickup truck. (Whether it's high margin I have no idea.)

jnsaff2
20 replies
5d5h

Sales numbers seem to tell otherwise. Tesla is the best car. I own one and agree.

That said, it’s not perfect as a car.

Also, what a ridiculous answer to criticism about quality from Elon. Just nuts.

Tesla makes good cars but to hide problems like a six year old in the hopes that no one notices is just so dumb.

It’s not whether you make mistakes but how you handle them when you discover them.

LeafItAlone
5 replies
5d5h

Tesla is the best car. I own one and agree.

How are _you_ defining best?

I do not own one, because I do not agree. They may have one of the best selling cars (in a given category), which is admirable. But that doesn’t mean they are the best overall.

After driving one (Model 3) as a rental, I briefly considered getting one. But after thinking about it, I realized that was because I liked their (to me) gimmicks. Overall, the vehicle was not the best to me.

bitvoid
3 replies
5d4h

I've driven 3 as rentals (2 Model 3s, 1 Model Y) and they all had issues. They all made a ton of noise on the highway (my 15 year old SUV makes less noise at higher speeds), cameras would randomly go completely out, screen would become unresponsive, etc.

Unrelated to reliability, I'm also not a fan of everything being controlled from a touchscreen. My wife wants one after driving a rental, but I think she too has fallen for the gimmicks.

nunez
2 replies
5d1h

I've rented several Teslas, mostly with Avis but some with Hertz. All of them are ridden very hard (thanks Uber) and, consequently, had heaps of issues.

Every single rental from Avis had a non-OEM replacement front or side window. One of them was replaced so wrongly, you could feel the air leaking through even when it was closed.

Almost every single rental also had two or more budget tires on them which tend to be louder and less energy-saving.

One Tesla had its rear camera pointed downward way too much. Unfortunately, because this car was Vision-only and lacked ultrasonics, and Vision-only Park Assist is slightly better than absolutely fucking useless, backing it in was a 2002-esque shit show every time.

This isn't unusual for rental car companies. They do the barest minimum repairs on their cars while charging you 10x the price if the damage is your fault. Scam life.

The Teslas I rented on Turo, however, were in great shape, including the Tesla that made me want to buy my own Model 3 (which is still going great 90k miles later).

That said, when I financed our Model 3 in 2020, there really weren't any other EVs and the non-Tesla charging network was practically non-existent. It's a completely different world now. I've rented many non-Tesla EVs. All of them are much better driving experiences. I'm particularly fond of the Chevy Bolt for a simple, cheap, no-bullshit commuter EV and the Genesis GV90 or Volvo XC40 Recharge Twin for something plushier.

LeafItAlone
0 replies
5d

I solely rent from Hertz (because of a big corporate discount). I used to rent cars frequently, though not as much in the past few years. Other than small scratches and other minor things, I’ve never had a vehicle with real issues.

The Model 3 I rented, from Hertz, didn’t have any visible modifications. But it was missing the outer lower plastic on one of the mirrors. The person at the desk said that they see that a lot (from a car wash?). It didn’t cause any real issues but did cause a whistling noise. When I initially got it, the Autopilot was not working (which I didn’t notice until after leaving the rental place). I looked up the error displayed, but it was pretty vague and the manual said to clean the cameras, which had no effect. Luckily I found online in Reddit or another forum that the next thing to re-calibrate, which fixed it.

Overall, I will rent one again, because they certainly are fun, but they are not what I want for a main vehicle, at least yet.

KaiserPro
0 replies
4d22h

One of them was replaced so wrongly, you could feel the air leaking through even when it was closed.

sounds like standard fit issues from a tesla....

jnsaff2
0 replies
5d4h

The best that fits the desires, utility and constraints for you.

If it’s best overall then best selling seems to be a fair way of removing bias as it is the best for most people.

7thaccount
5 replies
5d5h

Sales are not always indicative of "best". Rather, it indicates popularity. Teslas are nice in some ways and were revolutionary, but build quality and consistency have always been crap and it would seem there are some major issues with all the self driving software.

jnsaff2
4 replies
5d4h

I would argue that sales is indicative of the best as it best matches the desires, utility and constraints for the most people. It removes individual bias from the equation as individually naming the best is impossible.

Not disagreeing with the rest. I have not had notable build quality issues but I recognize that it is an issue generally.

The self driving part is a shameful disaster which I’ve stayed as far as possible. Didn’t pay for it and even the parts that come as standard are sometimes scary. Tho not as scary as some other implementations that don’t recognize cars stopped at red light in front of you and are happy to plough into them at full speed (looking at you Volvo).

johnisgood
1 replies
5d2h

Not quite though, as many things influence sale. Availability is one of them. Someone already brought up McDonalds burgers as an example.

jnsaff2
0 replies
5d2h

Availability is a constraint, price is a constraint. No?

ceejayoz
0 replies
5d4h

Sales-wise, McDonalds has the most popular burger, but it's hard to argue it's the best you can buy.

Sohcahtoa82
0 replies
4d21h

I would argue that sales is indicative of the best as it best matches the desires, utility and constraints for the most people.

If you assume consumers are rational, then yes.

But I think that's an incredibly naive stance to take. "Desires" will do a lot of heavily lifting to determine "best" since they will include a LOT of subjective measures such as susceptibility to marketing campaigns.

Besides, we all know the Miata is the best car. https://youtu.be/kp1kuo6xkbE?t=239

jgilias
3 replies
5d4h

I remember the first time I got into a Tesla Model S. I got a rental one just to see how it’s like. Was super looking forward to it.

Getting into it was a downer. I disliked the interior or rather the lack of it so much. Driving it exceeded all my expectations though. At that point it was the best EV, and one of the best cars on the street. Revolutionary indeed.

So, I can see how it could be seen as the best car for many people. Me? I’ll take an E-Tron, or a Taycan over a Tesla any day. I myself drive a KIA, and I much prefer it over the comparable Model 3.

And that’s before taking reliability into consideration.

dghughes
2 replies
5d4h

I'd like to buy a KIA EV but it seems KIA doesn't want to sell cars. Even if you bought one they are holding it some for a year!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kia-canada-car-sales-1.706321...

piva00
0 replies
5d1h

That is KIA Canada shenanigans, not KIA as a general brand.

They seem pretty available here in Sweden, a friend just got his EV6 GT delivered less than a month after purchase.

jgilias
0 replies
5d3h

Oh man, what a load of crap! Got mine in two weeks. A completely different market, and a few years back now.

rsynnott
2 replies
5d4h

Tesla’s market dominance is largely a thing in the US, where there is, currently, very little choice (though this will change). In markets with more of a selection of electric cars, like Europe and China, it is less dominant. US sales don’t demonstrate that Tesla is best; they demonstrate that the major manufacturers see the US market as more difficult to address/lower priority (and they’re not wrong, for a variety of reasons).

boobsbr
1 replies
5d1h

Tesla’s market dominance is largely a thing in the US

Tesla is behing VW in total sales, but the M3 and MY are the best selling EVs in Europe.

https://www.electromaps.com/en/blog/europes-best-selling-ele...

https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/04/24/these-are-the-top-5...

rsynnott
0 replies
5d

Well, yeah, but that’s really more a consequence of a different marketing strategy than anything else. VW Group makes several minor variations of the same car under different brands. There’s a Cupra version of the id.3 and Audi and Skoda versions of the id.4, say, all under different branding. There are a bunch of other minor variants, too. Bizarrely, there will also soon be a _Ford_ version of the id.4 (the Explorer EV), though that would go under Ford’s total, not VW Group’s. Besides the Ford, VW Group could, if it wanted to, condense all this into three significant cars, plus the microbus, but that’s not how they operate.

Tesla is about 15% of the European market, joint-second. In the (smaller) US market it is nearly 50%. I think it’s reasonable to describe it as very dominant in the US, but not in Europe. It would be reasonable to expect this to change as US manufacturers go electric and as foreign manufacturers go electric for their US-targeted models.

acatton
0 replies
5d4h

VHS was a superior format to Betamax. I mean... their sales numbers proved it, right?

fbergen
5 replies
5d5h

If they were only building them in volume

xattt
3 replies
5d5h

99 times out of 100, GFL getting an electric car from a dealer without a Eastern Bloc-like wait time.

My family waited for 2 years on a Lada in the 1980s.

bigbillheck
1 replies
4d21h

Hyundai tells me there are dozens of Ioniqs available within 25 miles of me at a couple different dealers, and my local VW dealer appears to have several ID4s in stock.

xattt
0 replies
4d17h

My local dealer (only one within 150 km drivable radius) has 14 ID.4s in stock, but the inventory site says sold out for 2023.

jedrek
0 replies
5d2h

A lot of modern western capitalism mirrors whatever the hell we had in the eastern bloc, with the caveat that neither the US nor the EU are 20-40 years after the greatest, most destructive war in their history.

brightball
0 replies
4d21h

That's definitely a huge factor.

The prices for vehicles from the other makes are absolutely insane for anything comparable.

I really, really like the design of the F-150 Lightning. If I could get it with 300 miles of range, rapidly recharge it on a trip and get it used for somewhere in the $40-60k range I'd probably get one.

As it stands, it's closer to 200 miles of range for $80-90k without the ability to rapid recharge (that I have seen).

Potential is there, but efficiency of production is not. Especially when they're publicly saying they still lose thousands on each one sold.

Archelaos
3 replies
5d4h

Since "best" can mean many things, it is good to refer to more objective benchmarks. On possibility are the defect rates of vehicle types in the same age categories. In Germany, cars must undergo regular official inspections. For new cars it is after three years, then every two years. The largest service company that carries out such inspections is TÜV. Their data from July 2022 to June 2023 for the first mandatory inspection after three years shows that Tesla's Model 3 has a defect rate of 14.7%, ranking it last out of 111 models. (The best was VW Golf Sportsvan having a defect rate of 2,0%.)[1]

However, these figures are subject to two caveats:

- TÜV inspections only cover aspects relating to road safety.

- If a vehicle had a defect before the inspection that was discovered and repaired, this would not appear in the figures. Owners of older vehicles in particular often have them checked by a repair shop before the TÜV inspection because they do not want to risk having to repeat the (chargeable) TÜV inspection.

[1] Source: https://www.tuvsud.com/de-de/publikationen/tuev-report/maeng... (in German)

pinkgolem
0 replies
5d3h

TÜV inspection because they do not want to risk having to repeat the (chargeable) TÜV inspection.

Thats not fully correct, a second check is much cheaper then the first one, and it's not super unusual to get it checked by tüv to see what you really need to repair.

caycep
0 replies
4d21h

Wait, VW was the best?! who knew?!

KaiserPro
0 replies
4d22h

in terms of reliability its not great in the UK either: https://www.whatcar.com/news/reliability-survey-most-reliabl...

For which magazine, tesla was such a drag on defects that it brought down the entire EV category

epolanski
2 replies
5d4h

Man's becoming more and more of a villain every week.

He's always had too much of an ego, but since Covid he genuinely keeps getting visibly more dangerous as time progresses.

wahnfrieden
1 replies
5d4h

You’re just getting to know him better

AlexandrB
0 replies
4d21h

Could be both! Though I definitely think that his Twitter addiction has been a net-negative for his image. It's interesting to watch someone with so much money and ambition become a social media addict like the rest of us.

rsynnott
0 replies
5d4h

I mean, Donald Trump claimed that his steaks were the best, and, well, come on. Loud bombastic idiots claiming their thing is the best thing is just background noise; it is a big part of their _thing_, and shouldn’t be taken at all seriously.

luma
0 replies
5d4h

“Whether you hate me, like me or are indifferent, do you want the best car, or do you not want the best car?”

Musk has become so publicly toxic that he now needs to add this disclaimer when trying to pitch his company's product. Dude is becoming a detriment to investors in all the same ways he was a benefit 10 years ago.

paxys
28 replies
5d5h

I just read a news item that Musk uninstalled the Disney+ app from the entire Tesla fleet as retaliation for Disney pulling advertising from X. I bet Tesla owners/shareholders are thrilled that they are being used as collateral in a fight that has nothing to do with them.

flutas
16 replies
5d4h

I just read a news item that Musk uninstalled the Disney+ app from the entire Tesla fleet as retaliation for Disney pulling advertising from X.

Mine still has it, as well as a number of people.

Everything I've seen is saying it was a bug[0] as it's happening to some cars and not others, and if it has disappeared, going to disneyplus.com in the browser makes it show back up.[1]

[0]: https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1736641032677372163

[1]: https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1736652882622161332

---

EDIT: To the down-voters, you know there's a reply button to point out why you think I'm wrong, right?

paxys
5 replies
5d4h
flutas
4 replies
5d3h

"A source told"

Yeah, until either company makes an official statement I'm going with Hanlon's razor.

After all, wouldn't this be an easy win for Disney?

"Look, Elon is so vindictive he's hurting his customers to spite us."

paxys
3 replies
5d3h

So basically because Musk's companies don't have a PR department, don't put out any official statements and respond to journalists' questions with a poop emoji, they should always get the benefit of doubt despite years of history of showing the opposite.

flutas
2 replies
5d3h

So basically because Musk's companies don't have a PR department, don't put out any official statements and respond to journalists' questions with a poop emoji, they should always get the benefit of doubt despite years of history of showing the opposite.

As I said in my previous reply, couldn't Disney make a statement too? According to your link "Disney was informed of this."

paxys
1 replies
5d3h

Disney has a competent PR team and rightly isn't getting dragged down into the mud by Musk to fight at his level. They don't need to put out any statements. The people affected are primarily Tesla's customers, and this is Tesla's mess to sort out. What % of Disney+ viewers are even using a Tesla? I'm sure their customer support can easily handle the dozen tickets that come through because of this.

flutas
0 replies
5d3h

Disney has a competent PR team and rightly isn't getting dragged down into the mud by Musk to fight at his level.

"Tesla has removed the Disney+ streaming app from it's cars, we apologize but there is no solution to this problem from our side."

That wouldn't be "getting dragged down into the mud" that would be making a statement to their customers. Or the least they could do is delete their help article saying how to access it?

https://help.disneyplus.com/article/disneyplus-en-us-tesla

nickthegreek
5 replies
5d3h

The downvotes are coming as there is no need to give Elon the benefit of the doubt in December of 2023. We've all seen how he behaves against those who he doesn't agree with and it is much easier to see a clear path of the removal of the disney app as retaliation vs a weird bug that just removes 1 streaming app. The links you provided are a Paid twitter account who seems to run a bunch of pro Musk material.

flutas
4 replies
5d3h

The downvotes are coming as there is no need to give Elon the benefit of the doubt in December of 2023. We've all seen how he behaves against those who doesnt agree with and it is much easier to see a clear path of the removal of the disney app as retaliation vs a weird bug that just removes 1 streaming app.

As I said to someone else, why hasn't Disney capitalized on this then? If it's truly vindictive, wouldn't it be an easy win for Disney to shit on him even more?

"Look, Elon is so vindictive he's hurting his own customers to spite us."

Just applying a bit of Hanlon's razor to life might do everyone some good.

nickthegreek
3 replies
5d2h

Why isn't Disney ($175B market cap) immediately and recklessly responding to something that happened hours ago? Because they aren't Elon Musk.

Disney's immediate non-reaction has nothing to do with Tesla's action. Why are you linking them?

flutas
2 replies
5d2h

Why isn't Disney ($175B market cap) immediately and recklessly responding to something that happened hours ago? Because they aren't Elon Musk.

"Hours ago" and also supposedly informed last week? [0]

Disney's immediate non-reaction has nothing to do with Tesla's action. Why are you linking them?

Chain OP linked them, not me. He claimed

I just read a news item that Musk uninstalled the Disney+ app from the entire Tesla fleet as retaliation for Disney pulling advertising from X.

I supplied evidence that it may be a bug, and on top of that evidence that it's clearly not "the entire tesla fleet" like he claimed.

You then claim "Disney's immediate non-reaction has nothing to do with Tesla's action"? At the very least, why hasn't Disney removed the help article saying how to access Disney+ on Tesla vehicles[1] if they've "been informed of this decision" as multiple articles have stated?

---

Also, why does Disney's market cap matter? "($175B market cap)"

Tesla has a market cap of $800+ billion.

[0]: https://twitter.com/FredericLambert/status/17367851281756696...

[1]: https://help.disneyplus.com/article/disneyplus-en-us-tesla

nickthegreek
1 replies
5d2h

You are using evidence of Musk doing the thing to say he didn't do the thing (even though you discounted this evidence in another chain). You wanted to know why you were being downvoted and not replied to. I gave you a reason and it wasnt good enough for you. Lesson learned. There is nothing to gain from further interactions with each other.

flutas
0 replies
5d1h

You are using evidence of Musk doing the thing to say he didn't do the thing (even though you discounted this evidence in another chain).

Which one is that, the one where a blog said "an anonymous source told us"?

I'm using it as evidence that it's either

A) a bug

B) if it isn't a bug, Disney knows and should delete the help article at the absolute bare minimum because they've "been informed"

I gave you a reason and it wasnt good enough for you. Lesson learned. There is nothing to gain from further interactions with each other.

Why, because I follow HN's guidelines and don't just post shallow dismissals built upon nothing more than my hate for a specific person, while throwing in random meaningless stuff, like Disney's market cap (that is still lower than Tesla's), but for some reason it was relevant to you?

turquoisevar
1 replies
5d2h

This makes it less likely it’s a bug to me.

As a dev this reads as them purposely hiding the Disney+ app instead of uninstalling it, but forgot about the URL scheme.

What’s happening in the video is, the now well known behavior, of a website opening its app when it detects its visited by a supported platform.

Most OSs will automatically unhide an app icon when a hidden app is opened to give the user a reference point of the app they’re using.

flutas
0 replies
5d1h

This makes it less likely it’s a bug to me.

It has happened in the past with other entertainment apps as well. [0],[1],[2] That's the main reason I think this is a bug.

In this case, this build is also hiding FSD Beta from those eligible for some reason until the car is rebooted.[3]

Most OSs will automatically unhide an app icon

Tesla isn't using an off the shelf UI though, so why would that apply? IIRC they use Ubuntu as the underlying OS, but I doubt that would have any affect on this.

[0] Tidal: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tidal-app-disappeare...

[1] TuneIn: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tunein-gone.262861/

[2] All media apps: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-theater-blank-...

[3] FSD Beta: https://twitter.com/teslascope/status/1737413197781696609

ceejayoz
1 replies
5d4h

Is this bug affecting any any other apps?

flutas
0 replies
5d3h
ilikehurdles
7 replies
5d4h

Companies like Disney pay to make their apps preinstalled on these devices. Tesla removing it may have something to do with Disney pulling ad money from Musk’s companies.

Of course, if we had journalists who’d investigate and interview before reporting on tweets, we might know the truth. Instead we get headlines like: Tesla hides Disney+ app “amid”/“after” Elon Musk’s feud.

paxys
6 replies
5d4h

You mean like this investigation which concludes exactly that – https://twitter.com/FredericLambert/status/17367851281756696...?

flutas
5 replies
5d2h

"A source told"

Says enough. Official statement or bust.

AlexandrB
4 replies
4d21h

Doesn't Tesla, like all Musk companies, famously lack a PR department? Are we supposed to wait for Musk to Tweet something?

flutas
3 replies
4d21h

By that statement above, Disney supposedly "knows" that Tesla removed it.

Couldn't they issue a statement, or at the very least delete their help article about how to access Disney+ in a Tesla since "they know" it's no longer accurate?

All they would have to do is issue a statement something like

On Dec XXth we were made aware that Tesla decided to remove the Disney+ application from their vehicles, while we find this unfortunate there is nothing more we can do.

Or someone could just email Disney's PR department, right?

jjulius
1 replies
4d21h

If you were Disney, would you want to continue to drag this out publicly, or would you prefer to hash this out behind the scenes and then announce a resolution?

flutas
0 replies
4d2h

I would make a public statement so customers know it's not "our fault", then try to hash something out. Otherwise it leads to ambiguity over who's at fault, and can make it look like Disney chose to remove the apps themselves.

Or at the very least remove the false advertising of us being on Tesla?

rurp
0 replies
4d21h

Why is it up to everyone else to work around Musk's impulsive pettiness? For all Disney knows Musk will take some different meds tomorrow and do a 180 on the policy, like he has with so many other issues. If Tesla wants to clarify their own actions they are free to do so any time.

ryandrake
1 replies
5d1h

I won't buy a Tesla due to this "tethering to the mothership" behavior. Who knows what else they'll just decide to turn off (or on) unbeknownst to me, for reasons I have no control over? When I get in my (untethered) car tomorrow, I know that it will behave exactly as it behaved yesterday, besides any actual systems failures that require maintenance.

mey
0 replies
4d21h

Tesla has multiple times made it clear that they don't believe you own the car.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/tesla-again-thre...

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-blacklist.2484...

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-remotely-removes-autopilot-featur...

Considering they have the ability to remotely disable the car, they can make good on their threats, even with dubious legal standing.

brightball
0 replies
4d21h

If that's true then it hasn't happened in mine yet.

nottorp
26 replies
5d5h

In 2021 i tried a Tesla. One of the back doors didn't align properly with the car body.

If they can't get that right, how can they get moving parts right?

toomuchtodo
22 replies
5d5h

My 2018 Model S has 110k miles on it, mostly Supercharged, with no maintenance except tires and washer fluid. I drive it like I stole it, not a garage queen. Similar reliability from our X and two more recent Ys.

Certainly, you’ll hear complaints more often than people are satisfied with the vehicles. The sales volume speaks for itself.

epolanski
7 replies
5d4h

The sales volume speaks for itself.

Popularity has never been an indication of anything.

toomuchtodo
6 replies
5d4h

Popularity has never been an indication of anything.

Except success I suppose. "But what does HN think?" said no one ever.

epolanski
5 replies
5d3h

Success isn't strictly related to quality..

You can't simply say "but look at how much it sells" as an argument to Teslas being decent cars or not.

jedrek
4 replies
5d2h

It's weird to see this mashup of "sales don't matter" with HN's utterly lapdog approach to capitalism and free markets.

toomuchtodo
2 replies
5d1h

Humans are notorious for overweighting towards their feelings and opinions vs data.

piva00
1 replies
5d1h

Like someone else brought in a different comment thread, using sales as a metric for "best" would infer that McDonald's burgers are the best you can have, ever.

scottyah
0 replies
4d19h

That's not quite right. The comment was really showing the the definition of "best" can vary based on a lot of factors. It is up to the reader's imagination to account for real life constraints such as time and budget in a burger purchase decision. If you have 7 minutes and the McD's across the street is the only burger place in town, they are the best choice as all the other burger shops result in having 0 burger.

epolanski
0 replies
5d1h

Who said they don't matter?

The argument here is that they are not strictly related to quality.

Are you gonna tell me the PT Cruiser, random example, was a quality vehicle because of its astronomical sales for years?

Not understanding why is popularity used as an argument for good sales. It's not. Tesla cars being well made (or not) is not a reason why they sell.

ThaDood
7 replies
5d5h

How are the panel gaps and the interior holding up?

nottorp
3 replies
5d5h

Also, TFA doesn't say all parts are broken. It just says that parts that basically do.not.break in any other car until it's old have come broken in new Teslas.

I've never ever heard of a wheel falling off before... and I live in a country where probably more than half the cars are bought used.

flutas
1 replies
5d4h

I've never ever heard of a wheel falling off before...

Toyota had to recall their EVs because the wheels would fall off.[0] Tbh, if even Toyota out of everyone can't get it right I don't know who can at this point.

[0]: https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyotas-fix-bz4x-disconnecti...

alphabettsy
0 replies
4d18h

Well to be fair they stopped selling them until they got it corrected and were open about it. That’s a big difference.

scottyah
0 replies
4d19h

Happened on my dad's Ford with less than 100k miles on it. Sure does seem a lot more uncommon in other vehicles though.

nxm
1 replies
5d5h

No car has perfect panel gaps, and even Tesla’s have improved to the where the point is almost moot. Also, a typical buyer is not measuring panel gaps.

nottorp
0 replies
5d5h

Also, a typical buyer is not measuring panel gaps.

Measure? Why do you think I measured? It was so crooked it was visible from 10 feet away...

toomuchtodo
0 replies
5d4h

No gaps, interior still looks good, even in the Y two toddlers are in primarily.

NoPicklez
1 replies
5d5h

Are you an aussie by chance?

toomuchtodo
0 replies
5d4h

Floridian American.

Amezarak
1 replies
5d4h

My 2018 Model S has 110k miles on it, mostly Supercharged, with no maintenance except tires and washer fluid. I drive it like I stole it, not a garage queen. Similar reliability from our X and two more recent Ys.

Is there any mass-market car that doesn't meet this bar (110k with no work other than basic maintenance)? Sometimes one model year of some random car will have a really bad engineering problem that gets recalled, but this seems like the minimum expected.

scottyah
0 replies
4d19h

Subaru's and newer Jeeps struggle with this from what I hear.

persolb
0 replies
4d5h

2019 here; I love it… but…

FSD beta I use everyday, but it is still not feature complete with what was promised “within a year”

The bottom of the car is literal cardboard, held on by plastic versions of rivnuts. They come out really easy and then the bottom is scraping in the ground. I had to get it replaced after driving through a shallow puddle (<1”) in the rain on the highway which splashed into the undercarriage. It happened a second time back in 2022 and it has since been ‘fixed’ by putting duct tape around the edges and over the plastic bolts. This is a known defect which Tesla corrected on newer models.

My control arm bearing failed at 4-years. As I was sitting at the dealership waiting for it to be failed, two other cars drove past making the same exact noise. Looking it up online it is another known early failure.

All that said, I’ve still spent less on it than maintenance in any other car. The frustration is just being told stupid shit like ‘don’t drive through puddles’.

jader201
0 replies
4d20h

It seems that most people that buy a Tesla are more interested in the status they bring vs. the build quality and reliability.

When I shopped around for an EV, I couldn’t find any compelling reason to get one over other models (e.g. Hyundai, BMW, Kia, Ford, etc.). The only two advantages I could find were a) simply the status of owning one, and b) the charging infrastructure. Build quality, features, and price were all better vs. Tesla.

Re: status, I think they’re currently still selling because at one point, you drew a ton of attention for owning one since there were so few on the road.

Nowadays, most anyone can afford one, and they still consider it a status symbol.

But as they become more commonplace and people start to see the build problems, and as EV production starts to ramp up and the gap in price between EVs and ICE vehicles narrows, I feel like Tesla will start to lose ground to the competition that has years of experience in making high quality and reliable vehicles, and the status of owning one will fade.

Re: infrastructure, this is already shifting considerably given the adoption of NACS, and even the Magic Dock being rolled out to allow CCS on Superchargers.

boobsbr
1 replies
5d1h

My Peugeot had a misaligned panel. Can Peugeot get moving parts right?

ern
0 replies
3d18h

To be fair, in much of the world, American and European cars (Peugeot, Renault, BMW, Audi, modern Mercedes Benz, VW, Volvo etc) don't have a great reputation either.

tjpnz
0 replies
5d4h

There's a trendy taxi service where I live whose entire fleet is Tesla and I'll sometimes cut across their parking lot to get coffee. Typically there'll be a dozen parked up at a given time and they all have that issue to some degree.

avree
14 replies
5d5h

Unrelated question to the article: “They were absolutely petrified,” Jain said of his wife and daughter. “If we were on a 70-mile-per-hour highway, and this would have happened, that would have been catastrophic.”

Is it normal for people in the UK (Jain is from Cambridge, England) to use miles-per-hour? I thought it was kilometers-per-hour, generally.

flir
4 replies
5d5h

We're kinda special that way - we went for maximum inconvenience in our measuring systems. We measure speed in mph, buy petrol in litres, and weigh people in stones.

te_chris
2 replies
5d5h

And thanks to the minister for silly measures you can now buy fresh produce in pounds again.

rsynnott
0 replies
5d4h

Next step - de-decimalising the currency.

(If the Tories end up having to ditch Sunak and shoving in yet another weird PM, I _would not be surprised_).

flir
0 replies
5d4h

Did they actually spend Parliamentary time on that? I assumed it was just headline-bait.

giuseppe_petri
0 replies
5d4h

buy petrol in litres

And use miles per gallon for fuel economy...

zimpenfish
3 replies
5d5h

Pretty much everything road-related in the UK is in miles (distances, speeds, etc.)

orwin
2 replies
5d5h

UK uses a sightly shorter mile than what I (western European SI unit user) uses when on water, and that was quite confusing the first time I tried to convert miles/hour to km/hours. Not a huge difference, but noticeable.

yardie
0 replies
5d4h

You're talking of the nautical mile. It's used globally in the marine industry. The nm is 1.1miles or 1.85km. And it's based on 1 arcminute of the circumference of the Earth.

asdfaoeu
0 replies
5d5h

You're talking about nautical mile. Apart from that a mile is a mile.

__s
1 replies
5d5h

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_King...

Imperial units are officially used to specify journey distances, vehicle speeds and the sizes of returnable milk containers, beer and cider glasses, fresh milk is often still sold in multiples of pints, with the metric equivalent also marked, and precious metals are sold by the troy ounce
InCityDreams
0 replies
5d5h

A lot just depends on the mood. Cyclists have fun 'doing a century' - either 100km or 100 miles has to be specified, which are vastly different distances. Miles (for me) are just long! Km seem to whizz by (the shorter distance numerically means you knock out more). When I take my eu car to the uk, with no mph on the speedo it's just multiply by 1.5 for ease of brain. Cops are pretty relaxed about it, too when i go slightly over.

tolien
0 replies
5d5h

Yes, UK-spec speedometers show miles per hour as the major unit (km/h are usually there too but given less emphasis) and speed limits are posted in mph.

rsynnott
0 replies
5d4h

For older people, definitely. I think UK speed signs may still be in mph! They certainly kept them long after we switched to kph in Ireland, and I think _that_ was only about 20 years ago.

Remember, there are still a lot of people who were _born before metrication started.

circuit10
0 replies
5d5h

We often use meters for short distances but miles for long ones

onethought
12 replies
4d21h

How often do other manufacturers do this? I recall from memory: VW had a loss of power problem they blamed on drivers. Toyota had throttle by wire problem they blamed on drivers.

Not defending Tesla here, this is all shit. But to me this is more about some kind of safety and repairs regulation, than the usual: Elon is bad.

bumby
6 replies
4d21h

It feels a bit more damning when they share a "talking points" memo to service centers to direct them how to characterize the failures. Add to that, they had internal engineers saying the actual failure rate is much higher than what was being reported, and it seems like it's venturing into fraud territory.

onethought
5 replies
4d21h

You mean how VW directed their dealerships to deny there was a power problem while also directing their engineering team to come up with a fix?

Sounds pretty similar to me.

bumby
4 replies
4d20h

Yes. So I’m assuming from your statement, you would agree that Tesla c/should be fine billions of dollars for fraud, just as VW was?

To be clear, I’m not saying Tesla is unique in this regard. I’m saying there are degrees ranging from “good faith engineering mistakes that are handled appropriately” and “fraud”. The Tesla memos and whistleblower claims seem to tilt it closer to the latter.

onethought
3 replies
4d4h

Agree. But further than fines. They should fix their certification program to include sampling. Not just testing a purpose made testing vehicle.

bumby
2 replies
4d3h

I agree with this. I wonder if they require their suppliers to be ISO 9001 certified. It's incredibly common in the legacy auto manufacturers. The fact that it wasn't mentioned by Tesla in any of their rebuttals makes me wonder if they deviated from this best practice. If so, they seem to be forcing themselves to relearn the same mistakes of their predecessors.

This certification area is one I've given some thought to. I think, especially in the AV space, there is a need for an improved standardized certification process. But to be fair, the VW diesel scandal followed a standardized EPA test, and they still gamed it, so it has to be carefully thought out.

onethought
1 replies
3d21h

That is why I think it should be some form of sampling. Where the agency assessing can pick a random vehicle from the factory and test it. It would make gamifying a lot more difficult

bumby
0 replies
3d1h

Sampling wouldn't have helped in the VW emissions case. All the cars had the same software to detect if it was on the road or at a test stand and adjust the fuel mapping accordingly. Maybe in the future, they'll do road tests. IMO, any time you can test it in a higher fidelity environment, the better. There's a lot that needs to be worked out on the testing side to prevent gaming the system.

mitthrowaway2
1 replies
4d21h

Toyota had throttle by wire problem they blamed on drivers.

My memory may be failing here, but I thought that the resolution of that was ultimately that it was the drivers at fault.

onethought
0 replies
4d4h

They recalled 8 million vehicles. There was a number of ways the throttle would fail to disengage, mechanical and electronic fails

rightbyte
0 replies
4d21h

I've been on the other side of this. I worked for an automotive manufacturer and there was a spectacular no-damage self-acceleration no-brakes-work event.

The manufacturer said they would not comment until there was an investigation.

Internally there was a hilarious amount of gossip.

We the programmers instantly started to wonder who of us made the bug.

Some engineers thought it was impossible. Others lined up the theoretical setup for that to happen.

Turned out the driver faked it ... or so the police report says.

ldoughty
0 replies
4d21h

I had a VW Diesel where they lied about the emissions.

I otherwise liked the car so I traded for a newer model gas version. 5 years later the sunroof started leaking. I never, ever, use the sunroof, so it could not be misuse/abuse VW denied any responsibility, and I was told a repair might cost 3,000.

A year later, they admitted no fault and settled on a class action lawsuit for the exact problem.

They now offer repairs under warranty if you get the repair done at a dealership.

The catch: the sunroofs are not obtainable anymore. There's months or a year backlog because they can't make enough spare parts to cover the broken vehicles.

They knew this was a problem, the newer model vehicles have a significantly redesigned sunroof

MBCook
0 replies
4d21h

To me the issue isn’t that it happened… it’s that it happened over and over and over.

It seems more like a pattern/SOP than a single mistake they’re embarrassed about.

deergomoo
11 replies
4d21h

There was a time when a Tesla was something I aspired to own one day, but now I don't think I'd get one even if I had a free pick of any car in that price range.

From what I understand they still lead the EV space in several metrics, but other manufacturers have done a lot of catching up in the last few years. Add that to greater reliability and build quality, and inclusion of physical controls (anyone who thinks replacing the indicator/turn signal stalk with capacitive buttons is sensible has clearly never driven in the UK—my 15 minute drive into the office crosses 11 roundabouts).

Plus I've developed such a strong personal distaste for Musk over the last few years that it's hard to want to give him money, however indirectly.

pclmulqdq
3 replies
4d21h

As it turns out, producing a quality product takes a long time. Tesla got to market early by not producing a quality product, but I assumed they would raise the quality bar after they got mass adoption.

tmpz22
0 replies
4d21h

Tesla got to market early by not producing a quality product

I'd argue Tesla min/maxed aspects of their product that gave them a initial strong lead in product space. Quintessentially performance/distance/charger-availability, but also some aspects of their tech really stood out like the touchscreen performance and mobile integration (relative to what other cars had in the mid 2010s.

IMO that initial lead has diminished. Other brands are catching up and do better in terms of some aspects of quality control and now reputation. If this trend continues I think we could see Tesla losing in most metrics, although we still probably have a good chunk of time until that happens.

If I had to buy an electric car today Tesla would still be one of the first cars I researched. Maybe Tesla would win. But in a few years I wholly expect another brand would win out.

stonemetal12
0 replies
4d20h

not producing a quality product

That is a little harsh, according to that recent Consumer Reports study Tesla is middle of the pack on reliability. At least according to Ars' take on the data, they build a quite good powertrain it is the rest of the car they haven't gotten good at yet.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/evs-have-79-more-reliab...

FireBeyond
0 replies
4d21h

... and by espousing that they knew better than legacy auto how to build the lines, and ignoring a century of learned study.

filoleg
3 replies
4d21h

anyone who thinks replacing the indicator/turn signal stalk with capacitive buttons is sensible has clearly never driven in the UK—my 15 minute drive into the office crosses 11 roundabouts

Is there a car that currently actually does it? Asking because I am yet to see one. And every single tesla model I’ve ever seen in real life uses normal turn signal stalks, so that wasn’t the car you were referencing either.

some0x80070005
1 replies
4d21h

The poster was referring to the Model 3 Highland refresh and allegedly the upcoming Model Y Juniper refresh. That is where the turn stalk was replaced with capacitive touch buttons on three steering wheel.

AlexandrB
0 replies
4d21h

God help Canadian Tesla drivers in the winter - most gloves don't work well with capacitive buttons/screens.

Edit: Actually, with how dry it can get in wintertime, sometimes my fingers don't even work.

deergomoo
0 replies
4d19h

The latest Model 3 refresh ditches the stalk, though it’s not due to land in the UK until 2024 I believe. Several UK-based outlets have coverage of it though, which is how I learned of it.

solardev
0 replies
4d21h

You perfectly captured my thoughts too. When I was younger, I was so excited about these spaceship cars. Then I rode in one and hated the UX, every single thing from the stupid door handles to the lack of knobs to being unable to open the glove compartment. Just, why?!

And then they kept lying about the self driving problems and kept trying to gaslight their customers about all the issues. All that was before the Fall of Musk. I just can't trust Tesla at all.

There was some awesome engineering done there (much respect, honestly), but at the end of the day I think I prefer a boring car that wasn't built with a "move fast and break things and kill people" mentality.

dylan604
0 replies
4d21h

I feel the same way. Tesla has now been around long enough that the reality distortion field is no longer able to be maintained. Too many cars have been sold, and too many disgruntled owners/employees have enough negative experiences to now voice their concerns in numbers no longer able to be dismissed as "the haters".

cmsonger
0 replies
4d21h

My sentiment exactly mirrors yours. I own a 2017 S100D. It has turn signal stalks, and wiper stalks, and has been (and is) a good car. My only complaint is that I hate the HVAC being on touch screen.

New Tesla's are literally worse to my thinking. Would I like more range? Sure, I guess, but truth is that 70% charge on the S is reliably enough range that unless I'm traveling cross country, the car just tops up every night.

I will buy another EV. It's very unlikely to be a Tesla both for their ergonomic design and Elon's very public display of policy positions and opinions that I disagree with.

gumballindie
7 replies
5d5h

Sounds like british car sellers. Nearly all diesel cars i’ve seen here have DPF issues and nearly all get blamed on customers. Happened to mine but was clever enough to get expert investigation prior to making my dealer do their own. They tried to blame it on me but changed tune once the word “lawyer” was mentioned.

supermatt
6 replies
5d5h

The problem with DPF is that people buy diesel vehicles with big engines and then use them for the school run. Short journeys dont allow the DPF to come up to regeneration temperatures. This is all mentioned in the owners manual, and it says what to do when the warning light comes on. The problem is people dont read the manual, neglect to maintain the DPF as per the instructions, and then end up blaming the DPF. Sure, there are other reasons for a clogged DPF, but they are generally caused by a failure elsewhere, like in the turbo or fuel injectors. BY FAR the biggest cause is short journeys, and then not maintaining via a forced regeneration accordingly.

The ONLY purpose of the DPF is to capture particulates in urban environments and then release them when up to temperature on the highway. If your vehicle is nearly always in an urban environment the DPF is effectively pointless, and you shouldnt be driving a diesel.

If anything, the dealer should make you sign a waiver to that effect as part of the purchase. Maybe then urbanites would stop driving diesel vehicles to look cool.

gumballindie
4 replies
5d5h

That is correct, however, none of the people i know with that issue - including myself - have had that driving pattern. Mainly driven on motorways.

supermatt
3 replies
5d4h

What was the reason they gave you for the DPF failure? The DPF has no moving parts. Aside from impact damage, it can only really get clogged, which shouldn't happen when regularly meeting regeneration temperatures. Some vehicles will have an additional heating matrix, but if regeneration occurs normally they should never be required anyway (they shouldnt really exist at all IMHO - they are effectively "cheating" the purpose of the DPF).

gumballindie
2 replies
5d4h

That i wasnt driving it “properly”. Instead the dpf was not working at all (either a vaporiser or fuel pump issue), and ash built up to the point where it couldnt be cleaned with forced regeneration. Soot reached >180% levels. The vaporiser “splashes” diesel inside the filter to “burn” soot - at least that’s my understanding. The pump pushes said fuel. If either of the two are not working at full capacity then the filter needs frequent cleaning or wont clean at all leading to ash building up.

The seller still wont admit fault, and instead they phrased it as a “goodwill repair”, probably to prevent other people from claiming repairs and to be able to gaslight them into thinking it’s an issue of their own doing.

Nonetheless i am raising awareness with whoever i can, including how to use an obd to read their dpf status, frequency of cleanups, and failures to do so. I wish class action suits were a thing in the uk because i feel like a lot of people are taken for fools.

Even if people drove short distances there is no clause signed when purchasing a car that you cant drive it short distances. I bought the vehicle to drive it as i see fit. If i cant then its not fit for purpose, end of story.

supermatt
1 replies
5d2h

Even if people drove short distances there is no clause signed when purchasing a car that you cant drive it short distances. I bought the vehicle to drive it as i see fit. If i cant then its not fit for purpose, end of story.

I totally agree. From your explanation, you have an active regen DPF, which IMHO shouldn't even exist. If your exhaust gasses arent hot enough to passively regenerate then you shouldn't have a diesel, and its something you should have been made aware of.

These active regen DPFs exist to burn off (i.e. release the particulates) that were previously collected in the event that the DPF starts to get blocked due to not enough high temp for passive regeneration. For urban diesel drivers, this basically means that the DPF collects the particulates, and then just actively regen and releases them - defeating the point of a DPF. They are indiscriminate, and are just as likely to release particulates in the same environment in which they would otherwise trap them (short journeys in a city). These things basically result in the vehicle passing emission tests by saving the particulates, and then releasing them later in the same environment. It amazes me they are allowed.

Anyway - thats not your fault - just me ranting about how pointless an active regen DPF is :) I hope that one day regulation realises that and clamps down on them.

gumballindie
0 replies
4d6h

just me ranting about how pointless an active regen DPF is :) I hope that one day regulation realises that and clamps down on them.

I hope so too. You can't sell a product that is known to break down under reasonable use conditions and then attempt to charge the owner for fixing said product. If diesel engines simply can't be made more environment friendly then ban them, end of story.

ed_balls
0 replies
5d4h

The UX is screw up. My gf's Volvo C30 was show a combination of glow plug light and cabin circulation to indicate that DPF is hot. She only knew because her dad had a lot of Volvo equipment and knew this quirk.

People shouldn't dig the manual for this info.

MBCook
7 replies
4d21h

So is Elon enough of a majority shareholder that he’s untouchable? Or is the company set up like FB where no matter what he controls a majority of voting shares?

Of is it just that no investors were willing to touch it because it just kept making more money do oh well?

So much stuff keeps coming out I’m left wondering why there isn’t a bigger push for a management change.

pclmulqdq
6 replies
4d21h

Elon Musk packs his boards with cronies. He has a relatively small minority of the shares and the votes in both Tesla and SpaceX.

DoesntMatter22
5 replies
4d21h

He's the largest shareholder in both so idk what you mean by "small minority"

mcguire
3 replies
4d21h

The largest single shareholder. Musk owns 12.9% of Tesla; the second largest is Vanguard, with 6.9%, followed by various other investment fund companies.

DoesntMatter22
2 replies
4d20h

A shareholder is singular. What else can a person or company be but a single shareholder? He by far and away owns the most stock of any person or organization.

MBCook
1 replies
4d20h

If the largest shareholder had 50.0001% of the shares, they’d be untouchable. No matter what, as long as they can vote they can get their way even if every other shareholder wants ‘em out.

If the largest shareholder (let’s say Frank) has 5% of the shares it’s possible to overrule them. You just need enough people to band with you that your collective shares outnumber the collective shares of Frank and others who will vote with him.

I should also note that this only matters for voting shares. I can own 97% of Microsoft shares and if I don’t have any voting shares I get as much direct say as my dog.

DoesntMatter22
0 replies
4d19h

None of that really matters because there are no large companies where an individual owns 50+% of the shares.

Musk is still the single largest shareholder, so someone saying he owns a "small minority" doesn't make any sense.

pclmulqdq
0 replies
4d17h

A "small minority" means "a lot less than 50%," which is true. He may be the largest shareholder, but he has a minority stake, and his stake is not even close to a majority.

Shareholders do not vote in isolation to each other, they can coordinate. The coordinator usually is the company management, but it can be activist investors. An activist can get enough votes to do something with Tesla without talking to Musk - this is not the case at Google or Facebook.

isoprophlex
3 replies
5d5h

"Move fast and lie" company ran by asshat CEO engages in deceptive business practices.

I guess if you can get away with promising "full self driving next year" since 2014, what is described in TFA is just small beer.

mschuster91
1 replies
5d5h

I guess if you can get away with promising "full self driving next year" since 2014, what is described in TFA is just small beer.

IMHO it's the other way around. Promising that some kind of technology is being worked on is just as normal as are setbacks during said development.

But this here is outright lying to customers and leaving them stuck with the bills, and it's lying to investors about risks on the company books.

IOT_Apprentice
0 replies
5d4h

He has customers pay for a feature for 10 years that they have been unable to use. A decade! That smells like fraud.

netsharc
0 replies
5d5h

His title should be Chief Gaslight Officer...

fallingknife
3 replies
5d4h

The numbers included seem to contradict the story. They are alleging that the suspension is defective, but the numbers included don't seem to back it up. They show that the cost of repairs under warranty for suspension components is $3.9 million per year. This actually seems quite low for a company with millions of cars on the road. There is also this:

In other cases, the automaker charged customers with out-of-warranty cars to replace parts that Tesla engineers internally called flawed or that they knew had high failure rates. Engineers ordered repeated redesigns for several parts and discussed seeking money back from suppliers because of the defects.

Do car companies ever not charge customers for repairs that are out-of-warranty? And I don't find the fact that the engineers called these parts flawed very significant. Everybody knows that certain makes and models tend to have trouble with their <car part>. I am not surprised that the engineers who made the car can figure these things out too.

The anecdotal evidence of the single case of the wheel falling off I don't find particularly damning. First of all the analysis by the engineer does not rule out collision, like the article implies. The direct quote from the engineer is "No convincing evidence to prove a direct impact is the cause of the fracture." This is an indeterminate result. Assuming that this was in fact a defect, when you have a N of millions of cars, you are going to be able to find some catastrophic defects. It's inevitable, and it's the reason why anecdotal evidence is weak.

I have a very high bar for accusations, and an even higher bar for accusations against Tesla given the high volume of them, and the low percentage of them actually going anywhere. And I remain unconvinced by this article.

sophacles
0 replies
4d21h

Car companies do pay for out-of warranty repairs for recalls. They sometimes pay for other fixes as well, though for these other fixes it's usually because the company fears a severe loss of reputation or an expensive class-action lawsuit.

In fact, if a part is flawed and it could have a detrimental effect on vehicle safety, the car company would open itself to some serious legal consequences for not reporting/issuing a recall and instead keeping it quiet.

metabagel
0 replies
4d21h

They show that the cost of repairs under warranty for suspension components is $3.9 million per year.

The article is literally about Tesla denying claims, because they said that vehicle owners “abused” the vehicle.

masswerk
0 replies
5d4h

The anecdotal evidence of the single case of the wheel falling off I don't find particularly damning.

Well, similar stories pretty much killed the British car industry.

MattDaEskimo
3 replies
4d22h

I am not a mechanic - only an enthusiast, but I know that a steering knuckle should never break the way it did in the photo unless there was some flaw in production.

belltaco
1 replies
4d21h

Would be nice if Reuters actually compared such failures in other cars. But they seem to be hell bent on writing a hit piece with other Tesla unrelated Musk things thrown in rather than actually come up with a good journalistic piece, so I am assuming they found that other manufacturers are the same or worse, so didn't mention it.

lawn
0 replies
4d11h

The point is that "such failures" are very rare or unheard of, and that Tesla lies about them.

bumby
0 replies
4d21h

That break immediately made me think of the SpaceX strut failure due to supply chain mis-management. Quality checks were not in place, resulting in material that didn't have the structural strength specified.

z7
2 replies
5d4h

So they start the article with describing one case of technical failure. Then they state: "Jain is one of tens of thousands of Tesla owners who have experienced premature failures of suspension or steering parts." In what time frame? "The chronic failures ... date back at least seven years." Okay, now I'd be interested: How does this number compare to other automotive companies relative to the time frame observed?

hef19898
0 replies
5d4h

If you go by the latest analysis ot TÜV (in Germany have to go through mandatory technical checks for roadworthiness, results arw aggregated and available for interested parties), Teslas have one of the worst pass rates at the initial three year check for new cars, it is 2 year intervalls after that. Over 40%, EDIT: 14% as someone else cited from the TÜV wesite in another comment but still at the bottom of 111 models, of Teslas failed the 3 year test the first time, this is right at the bottom of all cars from all brands. Among the stuff failing: Suspension and steering. So that checks out.

IOT_Apprentice
0 replies
5d4h

Question. Are you a Tesla owner? I’m not, yet every Tesla owner I know has stated they have all experienced quality issues and operational problems needing repair.

I read of Musk having teams in Tesla to deny & harass customers who experience now known issues.

Not the sign if a stable company or quality focused or providing good service.

rumblestrut
2 replies
5d5h

I know someone who used to work for Tesla.

They said after working there and seeing how poor the quality was, they would never buy one.

boobsbr
1 replies
5d1h

You can say that about every single company and industry.

You would be REALLY worried about your money if you knew how things work inside banks.

acdha
0 replies
4d21h

You would be REALLY worried about your money if you knew how things work inside banks.

No, because banks are regulated and insured. If your bank fails, you’ll get your money back. As the article you’re commenting on describes, if your Tesla fails there’s a good chance you’ll be asked to pay out of pocket to fix their problems.

mschuster91
2 replies
5d5h

The documents, dated between 2016 and 2022, include repair reports from Tesla service centers globally; analyses and data reviews by engineers on parts with high failure rates; and memos sent to technicians globally, instructing them to tell consumers that broken parts on their cars were not faulty.

This kind of behaviour should be severely penalized by regulatory agencies. Lying to customers is just as bad as lying to investors, and only the latter is punished at the moment - and customers were out massive amounts of their own money to get their cars fixed (or in insurance premium hikes) in addition to the money they all spent, which is an even worse state than an investor is.

It's bad enough that companies are allowed to grow so large and dysfunctional that they can legitimately claim "there was no central awareness about <issue>", but what Tesla did here is IMHO intentional fraud. They knew about the issues, knew that they should be liable, but shifted the blame and bills to customers to avoid having issues on their financial statements. And FFS Tesla should be fined for that deceiving tactics by the SEC as well, because the trick of not admitting the risk on their books worked out in the end.

lynx23
1 replies
5d5h

That would be a fatal blow to the advertisment industry...

ajsnigrutin
0 replies
5d5h

And nothing of value would be lost :)

londons_explore
2 replies
5d4h

One way to make an electric car go efficiently fast and far is to make it light. Extreme effort is taken on Teslas to reduce weight, and part of that will involve making suspension and steering components only as strong as they need to be, but no stronger.

That strength is enough for most people - but there will always be some who hit a pothole at speed, slam into a kerb, jack the car up on the wrong point, or otherwise exert forces beyond the design limits.

Other cars would survive that because they are overengineered. Tesla's may not.

It's a tradeoff you make when you buy the vehicle - you get a faster and more efficient car, but have to be aware that it is more fragile. If you wanted something robust, you could have bought a tank.

ceejayoz
0 replies
5d4h

Tesla has historically been pretty quick to release "we looked at the telemetry and the driver did X Y and Z" when they think it absolves them. In a car only driven 115 miles before the suspension fell apart, it a) should take some pretty extreme driving to cause that in such a short time and b) be pretty obvious in the telemetry.

AlexandrB
0 replies
4d21h

This is quite the "take". But it's also directly contradicted by how Tesla designed the Cybertruck: with thick stainless steel body panels that weigh a ton compared to typical body panels used in cars. This was justified/marketed with the claim that these are bullet-proof - something that is far less relevant to the average driver than hitting a pothole or a curb.

So is the Cybertruck the exception to Tesla's design philosophy for some reason?

epolanski
2 replies
5d4h

I can't believe how much hyped Tesla keeps being, especially in the stock markets.

I've seen enough EVs to conclude that Tesla does not make better cars than other automakers, at all. Nobody needs an EV that accelerates more than a Porsche 911, those are vanity pointless metrics.

It's conduct is also terrible and customer service plain infuriating.

scottyah
1 replies
4d19h

I've seen enough EVs to conclude that Tesla does not make better cars than other automakers, at all.

Wow this is a bold take as almost every other car manufacturing CEO has publicly stated they need to catch up to Tesla's innovation.

turzmo
0 replies
4d17h

Neither better innovation nor bigger sales imply better cars.

cs702
2 replies
4d22h

If this is true, shame on the company.

katbyte
0 replies
4d22h

If? It is pretty hard to argue it’s not

amelius
0 replies
4d21h

What about its management?

mypgovroom
1 replies
5d4h

No way this article is in good faith.

rsynnott
0 replies
5d4h

… What do you _mean_ by this? Are you claiming that Reuters made it up? Or just that it is insufficiently deferential to Dear Leader? Like, this is investigative journalism; almost by definition it is adversarial.

AndrewKemendo
1 replies
5d5h

People don’t buy a Tesla because they’re interested in reliability and quality and whatever over long-term. Tesla hasn’t been around long enough to actually prove it, so literally everyone driving on around is driving around a beta test car because it’s fast and is popular.

Conversely, buying a Toyota tundra has effectively zero risk. This is a version 10 car that’s not going to have any of these problems has a well understood maintenance and reliability supply chain and has a history of dealers to work with accessory parts and coherent recall procedure, etc..

Which one am I going to trust for my children? The one with a 30+ year safety record.

This is playing out exactly as expected if a total psychopath was running the company

scottyah
0 replies
4d19h

That's a fair assessment, and if you wait long enough the features iterated on at Tesla do come to the other auto companies. I know Tesla helped Toyota with their findings on battery tech. Now it's looking like 48v architecture and drive by wire will come to the masses in a decade or so.

xyst
0 replies
5d5h

Tesla vehicles are the equivalent of social media advertised items - overhyped junk.

Almost fell victim as well but reports of awful build quality and quality assurance (ie, vehicles shipped without brakes [1], hood may open while driving [2]) pushed me to cancel my preorder.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20220123010452/https://www.motor...

[2] https://web.archive.org/web/20220115192423/https://www.motor...

wnevets
0 replies
4d22h
seltzered_
0 replies
5d4h

"Tesla owners who have experienced premature failures of suspension" I believe some have called this 'whompy wheel'. An aftermarket company (Meyle) has even made replacement front control arms for some models: https://youtu.be/24S3LJazOEM

seabird
0 replies
5d4h

The steering knuckle failure shown in the article is insane. I've never heard of such a thing happening and have never heard of anybody who has heard of such a thing happening on a vehicle from what I will risk calling a "real manufacturer". I am always flabbergasted that there's people willing to just be in a Tesla while they're moving, let alone buy one, but then again, the general public has no real idea of how automotive safety really works. Crazy stuff.

rsynnott
0 replies
5d4h

While this article has some very _funny_ bits:

“All I can tell you,” the Tesla manager said, “is we’re not a 100-year-old company like GM and Ford. We haven’t worked all the bugs out yet.”

Yes, it takes 100 years to figure out that water is corrosive; you only get told this when you’re invited into whatever the car equivalent of the Freemasons is.

There’s nothing particularly _surprising_ here, except for Reuters actually quoting the word ‘fuck’. Reuters! Most US news sources of Reuters-level prestige/stuffiness primly mentions Elmo using ‘an obscenity’, rather than actually quoting him.

qaq
0 replies
5d4h

Would be good to have more data. Tesla reporting can be pretty skewed due to huge short positions on the stock and Musk being a total a@@ who decided to bet on fringe right.

mcguire
0 replies
4d21h

Tom and Ray, the Car Talk guys:

"There are three kinds of problems with cars. First, things that don't really matter, like the radio. Second, things that will leave you stranded, like the engine. And third, things that will leave you dead, like the brakes and suspension."

ksjskskskkk
0 replies
5d5h

ironically, the seminal paper in economy about information asymmetry bringing overall quality downfall to the entire market was on lemon cars

is_true
0 replies
5d5h

The FORD way.

Ford did this a couple of times, that I know of, I experienced it with the Powershift gearbox. The dealerships told you that they'll cover the electronic but you had to buy the clutches or viceversa. But you had to wait to get Ford's approval, if you wanted the fix fast you had to pay.

autoexec
0 replies
4d21h

Even if I liked the cars, and they aren't for me, I don't think I'd get a Tesla just because the company seems so terrible.

aga98mtl
0 replies
5d4h

The article makes a bunch of grandiose claim, but it never pins down an actual failure rate. It never compares it to other manufacturer. Some cars will have defects if you make millions of them.

The main claim seems to be that Tesla has higher defect rate, but it fails to make the case. Instead it veers into unrelated attacks on Musk.

advael
0 replies
4d19h

I continue to have zero interest in any kind of "smart car" and consider all of this downstream to Tesla's leaning heavily into that business model. If they already have invested in building you a product that assumes the company is making the decisions on the road, defies user expectation constantly, and by and large extorts you for features already present in the vehicle at every turn, why wouldn't they also be running a monopolized in-house repair scam like apple? If they already have a legal team set up to blame end-users for failures of its hideously user-hostile autopilot features, why wouldn't they use the same tactics to also blame end-users for any and all mechanical failures? I will continue to avoid paying egregious sums of money to be a guinea pig for the attempted enshittification of moving through the physical world, thanks