Chattanoogan, here — providing perspective as a user of city-supplied fiber internet:
Our local ISP, EPB Fiber (available to every. single. electricity. customer), is incredible. Synchronus 300/300, 1gps/1gps, 20gps/20gps... plus they just released the first qubit-capable fiber connections [I don't know/use this].
When they say "$57.99 per month," that's EXACTLY what appears on monthly invoices — including all taxes! And the product is revered for good reason(s).
It's SO GOOD that our state (Tennessee) has actually blocked other municipalities from implementing similar municipal fiber ISPs — and prevents EPB from offering fiber to customers outside of their electricity-supplying jurisdiction.
Asking new arrivals "Why'd you move here," you'll often find tech-types listing "The Internets" within Top5 reasons.
It makes me so frustrated too. Calling our state leadership incompetent would actually be a compliment considering how poorly ineffective and self-serving many of them are.
About a decade ago, EPB called a friend of mine. The representative on the phone said, "Hello <insert name>, we noticed that your internet has been slower than what you are paying for. Do you mind if we send someone out to fix it for you?" We were both so surprised that a company would volunteer their services like that.
EPB is all I ever had when I was there, and I still miss them everyday. Absolutely 10/10 company to work with. I worked at a place that had a 10gb connection and the hardware to handle it when it first was released. Nothing like downloading a full movie in mere seconds.
Stop electing people who block it.
Who should one elect instead? (I'd prefer a general answer, rather than a specific one; it's a widespread problem.)
Representative democracy as practiced in the U.S. does not usefully solve for single-issue politics outside of things like abortion / gun-control that also split along a pre-existing partisan divide.
So, sadly, it doesn't matter who you vote for; you need to start earlier in the process.
Could you argue that California's proposition system addresses the single-issue problem?
(I say "addresses" rather than "solves" because IIUC some people are very unhappy with it.)
If by "Calif.'s prop. sys. addresses..." you mean REFERENDUM (legistlation introduced by citizen initiative) then ABSOLUTELY YES this is what many redder states specifically DO NOT ALLOW — allowing citizens to actually self-govern is DANGEROUS, in their opinions.
(cough, Proposition 13)
Yeah, it seems like a good system for what to allow or not allow, but not so good as a way to decide general-purpose taxes.
Score voting or proportional representation are the real fixes. We need to be able to vote for a different candidate without it being equivalent to burning the ballot.
Right now one can case a meaningful vote only for legislators who serve corporations and the wealthy, or legislators who serve corporations and the wealthy even at the expense of democracy and human rights. Of the two, I think it is obvious one should choose the group that isn't supporting the leader of an actual insurrection. But the fact that's a controversial suggestion gives me no hope that we'll ever have a sane voting system.
Apathy isn’t constructive.
In our lifetimes we have seen real improvements in voting systems. Washington has a successful vote by mail system as do other states.
It’s not hard to find examples in living memory of seismic shifts in law, even at a national level. Look at gay rights and weed legalization for example. The status quo would have been unthinkable in the 1990s.
Change comes from the bottom. Municipalities across the nation are implementing ranked choice. Get involved locally and prove your ideas work. The rest of us will take notice.
Honestly (and just a bit more than "pipe dream"), I'm a well-educated American that is actively planning exit to a former Balkan country... because the trajectory "seems better" / "more realistic" than attempting to die in what appears clear to me [at just-shy of forty]: unless I'm willing to shit all over my peers, I will die destitute in what this shithole is becoming.
Perhaps I'll soon become one of the next few hundred annual American expat departures into the Balkans [if they'll have me — 'Mercuh has prettymuch chewn me up and spat me out, the few decades I've been employed here].
::waves:flag:patrioticly::
Ranked-choice voting, is a good start:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting
But Tennessee outlawed this voting method, last legislative cycle. So all they needed to do was redefine "fair elections" and —presto— they've saved their constituency from the nuissance of actual choice... [smell that, Mericuh'... it's the smell of "freedom"].
Such an unhelpful answer. You assume parent is one of the ones casting votes for those politicians? You seem to assume that there’s even a politician on the ticket that’s worthy of the vote on this issue.
Tennessee also recently enacted legislation OUTLAWING RANKed-CHOICE VOTING [after Memphis attempted such voting], thus ensuring only two-party electorate; and for the foreseeable future.
This state HATES its constituency, beyond anything more than their "fair" votes.
That's a fair bit of rhetoric, but we're pretty much a single-party state. New York is about as hard blue as we are hard red, and they despise their citizens. At least here I have more freedom and less taxes.
more freedom Unless you want to start a city-run ISP.
Yeah, mine is owned by the state instead, dirt cheap. I can do more things with fewer restrictions, I have more freedom. Anyway, I have to put together the gun I 3d printed, take my completely unregistered truck to church, then maybe go hunting without a license, then come home to my house where I pay $400 a year in property taxes. All legal.
Are you telling me that here in Tennessee, I can drive my unregistered truck on public roads, as long as the destination is a church?
You definitely do need a license to hunt in this state, even on your own private land. There are even defined seasons (except for invasives).
$400/yr/tax is probably a singlewide, but I do agree that property taxes here are low (and thus our education pays 43rd in the country to teachers).
I'm genuinely curious about the truck-to-church thingy, though — as I do truly have an unregistered pickup truck (I have insurance, just no title).
1. Farm tags exist, but only in some counties. Destinations can be church, groceries, or farm purposes. 2. False. On your own land (or land owned by family), you just need to follow season and report harvest. Check TWRA site. 3. 2k sqft and 5 acres. I'm in the mid-sticks, but yes, our property taxes are excellent.
Before you can say that, I think first you have to show that most of the voters in TN want ranked choice voting. In my experience many people do not want it, because they feel it is unfair and that it amounts to getting multiple votes.
And before anyone argues at me about "that isn't what RCV means", you're preaching to the choir. I am 100% for using some form of RCV instead of FPTP voting. But if it turns out most of the people in TN favor FPTP, then their representatives are simply doing their job on behalf of the people. I don't know if that's the case, but it wouldn't surprise me based on past experience.
I can't speak for Tennessee, but I bet it's like most parts of the country. In my county we have something on the order of 37000 voters. Roughly 6000 voted in the last election. I ran two different campaigns and that meant our win number was just north of 3000. We have a relatively small population under 50 -- and none of them vote. Almost every problem in my county - housing, limited job prospects, etc -- can be traced to the morons that are in office. So, I'm recruiting the heck out of candidates, rebuilding the infrastructure to get them elected, running campaigns, etc. So yeah, the parent poster isn't wrong - you gotta get people out to vote, but you are right to that you've got to be a force for change in the overall system too.
EDIT: Realized I should have noted that while we have 37000 voters, our population is around 62000... so even getting people registered to vote is a major need.
It got SO BAD [the corruption] recently that our city/county (Chatt/Hamilton Co.) elected mayors/DAs that only recently began gray-hairing. From memory, the ages went from averaging 60 to 45. I'm not even 40, and one of our best local judges is my age!
EPB's customer support is 24/7/365.25 (i.e. no holidays off). And the people working there, dealing with typically-grateful customer, aren't all burnt-TF-out. The rare call for support is thus pleasant and provides immediate resolution.
If your house-mounted fiber/copper modem ever "burns out," a technician will typically respond within a few hours to replace the device (it is mounted outside, they don't even call first, they just fix it). I'm a retired electrician, and even when you "call in" a panel replacement, an ISP tech usually shows up to "fix" the "problem" (went offline because consumer meter/unit/main panel was being upgraded). It's actually kind of cute =P
That is an incredibly tightly run organization. It might be reactive, dispatching a technician as soon as the ONT goes offline, or the router plugged into the ONT stops pinging, but this is first class customer service.
My guess would be that it is being run/managed by engineers not MBAs.
"You do not want your organization to be managers managing managers, managing managers, managing managers." —Mark Zuckerberg
They'll also run ethernet lines in your house, typically just to the inside router and one computer — FREE with installation (which is also FREE, just pay monthly no-contract bill). I am a retired electrician, and have worked along-side many techs in new-builds... never met an EPB worker who wasn't thrilled to work for their employer.
I also know several of their backend techs, and despite hesitant gripes of "lower government pay," none of them apply for tech/opsec jobs at private companies.
It probably helps that they are working for a company popular with customers.
Also profit margins on ISPs are extremely high. comcast, verizon, at&t, etc... all ~60% gross profit if you look at financials.
Something very similar to this recently happened to me with Spectrum (cable internet) in NYC, which is not a company known for being nice to customers. The tech who came out explained to me that they were seeing unusual performance profiles on their end and that's why they do this. In my case, it turns out there was a splitter somewhere outside where there shouldn't be instead of the line going directly to some junction box, and that's why they were seeing the odd profile. After he removed it and made the line be direct, our service was indeed better, but I guess whoever installed the splitter stopped getting free internet/cable. (I'm not mad about that.) So while the service call was framed as "improving my service" and it did indeed, it was also an investigation into something suspicious they detected. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a similar situation for your friend.
NYC is pretty good for internet, because there's Fios in many buildings, so the cable companies really try. There's competition here. I've lived here for about 11 years, and outside NYC for 20 years, and as a techy and heavy internet user my whole life, the difference in pricing, performance, and customer service _of the same company_ (actually a conglomerate which acquired other ISPs over the decades) is quite significant. I have an amazing deal on Fios right now, but had Time Warner for 6-ish years across 3 apartments here, and it was way way better than Time Warner in California, or Comcast in Delaware ... where they really just DGAF
LOL @ "downloading a full movie in mere seconds"
quite the legitimate use case for such bandwidth! :)
Its not incompetence, just corruption. The large and ever growing bureaucratic apparatus of modern democracies are very vulnerable to this covert form, because responsibilities are unclear and diluted and at the end of the day, you need campaign money to win an election.
Yup, I live in another city that has a setup like this (Conway, AR of all places). Ours even goes a little further than EPB though.
Electricity, Water, Sewer, Trash, Cable, Phone, Internet (already fiber for recent builds, upgrading all to it currently) all through one company that's owned by the city...it's amazing.
One bill a month, and my bill is ~300/mo for all services including 1Gb/s fiber. Plus the other aspects of it. Tech support is someone sitting downtown, power outages are fixed in record time... just so much is right with the model.
https://conwaycorp.com/
I wish we could get a setup like that going where I live, but sadly I live in the flyover states and this would NEVER play with our voter base, they'd be screaming socialism at the top of their lungs until they turned blue in the face.
At least we got fiber, finally. It isn't state-run but it is a local telecom, the price is reasonable, the service is incredible and the uptime is great. I still get letters occasionally from Spectrum begging me to come back and their PROMOTIONAL PRICE is $10 more per month than my 600 parallel, for slower service. Absolutely brain-dead, I'm not entirely sure the marketing people for cable companies are still living in our reality. Why would you even bother sending these out? Who in their right mind is going to pay more money for worse service to possibly the single greatest and most widely known avatar for corporate avarice, the cable company?
I don't know a single person in my area who still has cable internet if fiber is available to them. Spectrum must be hemorrhaging customers.
Edit: and if it isn't obvious, yeah I'm a cord cutter too, though tbh there was never a cord in my life to cut. I haven't had cable since I moved out of my parents house, and if not for semi-frequent hotel stays for work, I'd not be exposed to television at all. And said minimal exposure lets me verify that I'm missing absolutely nothing by not having the idiot box in my home. I cannot comprehend people who pay up to the range of hundreds of dollars a month to have a firehose of ads and mediocre bullshit pointed at their faces as a recreational activity. Not gonna yuck someones yum, you like what you like, but it ain't for me and I truly cannot understand why anyone wants it at all, certainly not enough to spend that kind of money on it.
I've lived in a place where a nice local company offered fiber. Up to 1gbps, symmetric and very reasonably priced lower tiers too (100-300mbps). They had a monopoly, and people loved to complain about issues that were... mostly their router. Though occasionally real issued happened too, of course.
A cable company moved in with introductory rates that were about what the previous rate was, but for higher dl speeds and much lower ul speeds. It was cable based. They added eyesore boxes all over the neighborhood.
Plenty of people building new houses bought cable, and some switched as well.
I've also lived in a neighborhood with ATT fiber, and have seen the same phenomenon. The cable company is much worse, but people will still choose them sometimes.
Why be competitive, when you'll get customers either way? :shrug
My experience: There are some people who are distrusting or hostile enough toward "socialism"/"politicians"/"the gov'ment" that they'll eagerly pay more for worse service.
Or, just think of how many people keep buying bottles of drinking water.
I think there's also an element of competence. Why choose 300/300 over 500(*)! They don't know the difference between fiber and cable, didn't read the fine print showing the low upload speeds on the "500". :facepalm
I do think that most of it is ignorance, but realistically upload speed is irrelevant for most people most of the time.
I think that was more true before automatically backed up photos became a thing. Even video chat can make it relevant, given how restricted some are.
If all they ever care about is sending a few emails and watching videos, possibly many at a time, then 500 down is better than 300 symmetric.
Not really. Either one will handle downloading those emails and videos just fine. Rarely will the service at the other end keep up anyway.
OTOH, when icloud (or Google Photos) is uploading full in the background with the crummy ISP provided router, they'll wonder why they aren't getting anywhere near 500 via their cable.
Point. And the muni service has ~no chance of out-glitzing the commercial ISP's slick marketing, celebrity endorsements, "Watch Star Wars for Free!*" offers, & such.
*Star Wars Holiday Special only
GP said they live in Arkansas.
Oh yeah, look at that. Damn. I wonder how they pulled that off. Any time anything like that is suggested around here the culture warriors come in red faced and screaming.
I enjoy reminding these typically-babyboomers that Medicaid Part D (subsidized prescriptions) is "about as socialist as it gets" — they get low-priced medications, after largely having paid [relatively] nothing in to this "entitlement." Why have they paid almost nothing in to Part D? Because Part D is relatively new, thus passing the costs of medicine on to younger generations/taxpayers.
I highly recommend, for better understanding your neighbors (of any age), that you read "A Generation of Sociopaths" — chocked full of statistics to help everybody see why we commoners need "socialism," or whatever they want to call it... BECAUSE IT MAKES LIVING BEARABLE, LESS EXPENSIVE, AND GD you cannot make up their lifetimes of hypocrasies.
I'm about 2/3 the way through it actually! It's a good read.
That said, what do they say when you point this stuff out? I've been attending local city meetings for a bit now, and when confronted with this stuff, they don't change their minds, they just double and triple down, get even angrier, and screech even louder about MUH FREEDOM.
I don't even get angry, I'm just like, explaining how society works (pooling of resources so people can get what they need) and they absolutely melt the fuck down! It's crazy!
My best local friend is twice my age (late-30's VS late-70's); former landlord, he married a rich girl from The Mountain, and is himself a blue-collar-raised Veteran [drafted, no less]; he is essentially the only "receptive" elderly person I've met, his wife vitriolic at the idea/concept of providing any of the same benefits as her own generation (The Silent Generation) received.
I will just quote Her, instead of trying to generalize:
"Nobody wants to be 'the last one' at the party — then you have to clean up all the mess!" —80's, female member of local Patriarchy™.
Also her: "What should we last few members of my generation do, then; just DIE?!?" Me: "Well, you could start by not complaining about the minimal taxes you pay on ownership of hundreds of acres of undeveloped land. Or, stop cashing your social security checks, which you clearly do not need." Her: "but I EARNED that."
Narrator: No, she did not. She inherited it from Daddy, over sixty years ago.
I actually submitted a ticket/request to Spectrum, with essentially the exact same question once. Surprisingly, they called me back and interviewed me about "What it would take to sign up for their service?"
When I described what I get from my local city fiber service, they acted like "price" and "reliability" and "decent customer service" were all impossible requests — as if EPB didn't exist. I'm not sure if feigned, or actual, ignorance was at play.
Regardless, I did not switch over, and they didn't lower their prices. Still get advertising, and am often left wondering "why do they even bother?!"
I do know a few elderly folks, despite also having EPBfiber (local city-supplied), maintain other services as "backup" or "for the email address they've always used from @comcast." No amount of reasoning will resolve this, so the cable internet lines still get maintained along city-provided-fiber routes.
I'm pretty sure Spectrum corporate culture is incentivized by only one thing: SELL!
I canceled my service after several years due to a negative customer service experience, which I explained was the primary reason I was cancelling. Never was I asked about the incident... only more offers and promotions.
I called Spectrum before I canceled to specifically ask if they could get me faster internet without changing my TV package. They said no -- I was on a grandfathered plan from a prior company they had bought, and they would have to recreate the account to do anything. So I got Fios + YouTube TV instead. And when I called to cancel Spectrum, the guys says he wishes I had called before getting Fios.
It's very clear that the only time they care is when your actual money is on the line. Before that, everyone is shackled by whatever chains management puts on them.
This was also shortly after they sent me a new modem and told me to install it or risk losing connectivity within like a week. And then on my next bill is a charge for updating the modem...
I mean, I'm sure the calls are monitored and them openly acknowledging that their service sucks ass and is more expensive than their competitors would have them fired more or less immediately, but I am shocked they were ready to even send one of their reps your way knowing damn well they had no leg to stand on to actually make a sale. Like why even waste the time?
Idk man, these dinosaur companies are a trip and their internal machinations are endlessly fascinating. Corporate bureaucracy (at least when it isn't actively making my life worse) is always an interesting topic to discuss.
I felt SOOO bad for the sweet-sounding (sincere? I'll never actually know) woman interviewing me — like a lamb-to-slaughter, I think the corporate intention was to make me feel bad for "believing such nonsense ISP could actually exist."
My last semi-corporate gig, a performance review indicated "[ProllyInfamous] uses too much profanity." I responded verbally by informing them that "from now on I'll stop 'giving a shit,' and instead will start 'giving a hoot'." The owner's complaining wife was NOT thrilled. [I know "I AM fucking difficult"].
but sadly I live in the flyover states and this would NEVER play with our voter base
What do you think the states of Arkansas and Tennessee (two states mentioned with municipal Internet) are? Coastal socialist paradises?
TN state literally threw a fit and outlawed this as a result.
Send some of that to the Tulsa area, please! Here, it's the land of Cox Cable, reliable, but $$$.
I hate Cox with the passion of a thousand burning suns, but fuck me if there's actually a competitor.
When AT&T first started offering fiber I called them to ask about where was at because I was moving and wanted to factor it into my move. I was told they had an agreement with Cox not to reveal that information. You either happened to be in the right spot or you didn't.
To this day you still cannot call them and get that information.
fuck Cox.
Same opinion historically, but in the last 3 years they've done a lot of upgrading around where I am and actually seem to be doing a better job.
We'll see how long that lasts. But at the moment they are being good.
Sound "dreamy..." our Scenic City still pays American Water for their monthly extortions =D
How can they block municipal fiber isps ? Or prevent epb from selling services ?
I'm sure it's within their regulatory laws to determine what can be rolled out where. Of course, the real question is where are all those free market Republicans in Tennessee when it comes time for the market to compete with their donors?
Blocking public services that naturally have a pricing advantage over private businesses because they're supported by tax dollars. Like if you're gonna drag Republicans for not living up to their free market ideals this really isn't what you should point to.
People said the same thing when they opposed the public option in the '00's and the rationale was the same. "Competing" with government services is just roundabout price controls. I'm zero percent opposed to such things when the market fails to sort itself out but I can see why strict free market adherents wouldn't be on board.
ISPs and Pharma companies get subsidies from the government, I don't think your argument holds up here. Just another area that Republicans are happy to be hypocrites on. I would love to see Republicans set out "small government" legislation that removes subsidies to the core businesses in their states but you and I both know that will never happen. A child getting food stamps is an example of our 'welfare state' but it's never the billions that go to agriculture or pharma companies.
I laugh often knowing that WalMart is the largest single recipient of "corporate welfare" in this fine state/country. What a term/fact. When my black nephew started working there, they walked him through "applying for foodstamps" as part of his training/onboarding.
The real trick is them being able to claim that with a straight face and then turn around and give subsidies and handouts to the private services.
I have always been terrible at the [empathy-lacking] trick.
Oh'shucks, meself. /s
That's the stated rationale. The actual reason is that the entirety of Republican economic ideology revolves around the idea that the government isn't capable of providing better service than private companies and municipal broadband shows this to be a complete lie.
Well, firstly, we should acknowledge that municipal broadband isn't a story of completely unmitigated success - there are cases of tremendous failure as well.
I'm also fairly sure that most Republicans would not mind if municipal broadband were run - and competed on - commercial terms.
However, if it's funded by municipal bonds that are backed by general obligation (i.e. all taxpayers subsidize, whether they use the service or not) then that seems obviously a problem to me. Even if they're revenue bonds, they're still implicitly subsidized by tax treatment.
If you think Democrats aren't just as corrupt and willing to pass bills that are bad for the people but good for their donors, I have a bridge in Arizona to sell you. The problem here is that the vast majority of public officials are corrupt, not which party they happen to run with.
Did I say that? The conversation here was about municipal broadband in Tennessee. Whataboutism isn't helpful for any discussion.
Again, for the people in the back!
BRING BACK RANK-CHOICE VOTING (To Tennessee, specifically!)
I've lived in a lot of red states, and the same thing repeatedly happens. I've given up trying to change things. For every 1 person who will care, there are 25 who just check that there is an "R" next to the name of the person. Ignorant votes make educated votes irrelevant.
"Privatize profits, subsidize losses." —My neighbor Tennesseans (when I used to live on Lookout).
US states typically can organize their municipalities, school districts, fire departments, public power agencies, etc. however they want.
If the state constitution doesn’t say otherwise, the legislature can just pass a law saying municipalities can’t get into the internet business and that’s that. This comes up a lot with liberal cities in conservative states.
Many states have laws blocking municipal broadband [1] -- basically regulatory capture in its most blatant.
[1] https://broadbandnow.com/report/municipal-broadband-roadbloc...
The reason Chattanooga is even allowed to offer fiber internet service is that TECHNICALLY it is for monitoring their power delivery infrastructure, down to each household. Customer internet is just an "additional benefit."
When your power disconnect here (without explanation), somebody from the power company shows up within the hour (to figure out why, then replace any broken hardware). But this is rare, as the "auto switchers" can typically reroute blackouts, restoring service usually within seconds.
Also in TN, my fiber is bundled with my electric and is absurdly good. TN has good infra, it's nice to feel the benefits.
Is this one of those situations where it went from practically non-existent to holybejeebusfast? I had friends that lived in an upper mountain valley that barely had POTs, no cable (not enough customers for provider to feel construction was worth it) all the way until ~2014. Finally, the utility strung fiber along the existing POTs poles, and they now had 1Gbps up/down as well as TV service. Being in a valley, the broadcast reception left a lot to be desired, so pretty much everyone had a satellite dish of some sort.
2016 - 2023, I lived inside a national forest in a 100+ year old cabin... not even within the city limits of Chattanooga.
BUT, since I received electricity from the city's Electric Power Board... 20gbs syncronous internets was available for $299/month (all taxes included). Being a mere mortal, I settled for the 0.3gbs (300mb, synchronous, exactly $57.99/mo.) fiber, which allowed me to run a bitcoin node maintaining 100+ <9ms connections.
In the middle of a national forest, "out in the sticks."
This sounds heavenly. I think this will now be added to my list of potential retirement options.
Tennessee is a wonderful place, and I'd recommend it. Keep in mind that it's a brutally conservative place, and the typical Californian will likely be uncomfortable outside of Nashville. The people are lovely, just a note.
I'm currently in Texas. Your brutally conservative will probably feel like a loosening of the belt.
No, I compared when I moved from a blue state, chose here because it's much more conservative. Texas is almost a swing state at this point. I'm friends with our former lieutenant governor, and I can assure you that it's not all show, either.
Bwahahaha! Texas? A swing state? Thanks, you literally made me LOL. We clearly have different concepts of a swing state.
Compared to us, absolutely.
I grew up in Texas and now live in Tennessee. I would say the states are, in general, equally conservative.
However, Tennessee is WAY more OLD MONEY CORRUPT than Texas [even with Mr. Paxton back in his seat] good-ole-boys could ever dream up.
¢¢
This is 100% true, but I prefer old money corrupt to new money corrupt. Old money is interested in stability, new money is... not.
Pretty much, yeah. Went from dial-up to better than I've ever had in my life.
Can anyone explain why free market competition has so thoroughly failed while a state utility provides such a dramatically better product?
I'm not being snarky, I'm usually a pretty strong 'let it be decided by markets' guy.
My understanding (i.e., personal experience) is that many areas only have one or two providers (same with health insurance). Without competition, it's not a true free market as the companies have no incentive to improve since everyone just has to deal with their subpar product or forego it all together.
Curiously, the city I'm currently living in will soon be rolling out it's own fiber and the existing providers are all scrambling to improve their infrastructure and "bribe" existing customers with free gadgets (e.g., Google home speakers, etc.) because they know that their current offerings are not competitive and that they would go out of business overnight if they stood by and did nothing in the meantime.
South Park captures this best by having their cableguys rub their nipples when complaining cartoon characters ask for better service/treatment. "What're'you gonna'do 'bout'it?!" the South Park Cable Guys mockingly ask.
Nothing. You'll DO NOTHING and be happy. Perhaps the beatings will end when morale improves? [avg joe gets community fiber for $60/month] "Is this socialism? Is socialism wrong?"
There’s no free market in infrastructure. Never has been. Oligopolies are the best you can hope to get.
There's basically this whole category of things that function best as a monopoly. For insurance, you want the pool to be as large as possible to amortize risk over. For distribution networks, you don't want two networks covering the same area.
When that happens, the most important thing is ensuring the monopoly is run well, for which strict regulations are a must. You must define a mission independent of profit seeking, requirements that must be met, and be able to hold people responsible if they fail to meet the requirements or succumb to excessive greed.
After that it's largely irrelevant whether the entity providing the monopoly service is private or public.
I don't see any free markets?
Some of these solutions may not work as well in "big government" cities - they layer on so many non-core requirements the underlying product can become somewhat expensive or challenging. I had to deal with government tech support on something 10 years ago and you'd NEVER want to experience something like that - an entire office (being paid for by the government) would be offline for one silly reason or another. It was always like for x, y and z reasons only Q can do that needful thing, and Q is on a protected leave of some sort.... and cost and disruption was irrelevant. Then put in compliance with McBride Principles for Northern Ireland, required virgin redwood purchasing evaluations, sweatshop evaluations, travel restrictions, purchasing restrictions, first source hiring, purchasing procedures that were both highly complex and product quality / price only a small part of eval and extend this list 20x - all worthy things of course, but tough to get stuff done at times.
The telecom market isn't free, that's why
ISPs largely don't compete. They're legalized regional monopolies. There was a single cable TV provider, and they became the single cable internet provider, and so they don't need to reduce prices or improve the service offering, at least not until an alternative competitor emerges.
I imagine there's a handful of solid reasons for this.
- Greenfield tech is simpler, and more stable. There's only 1 or 2 CPEs, a handful of distribution gear types, and a much smaller network. As a result, the support cost is much cheaper, more stable, and less prone to failure from equipment damage. These networks aren't traversing over 40, 50, 60 year old coax or 80, 90, 100 year old copper, it's fiber all the way down.
- Profit as a motive for the ISP is purely to pay for the costs of the service. Wages, equipment, investment in the service. Without a need to spread dividends to investors, and those investors leading a board to shift the motive of the service provider to generate revenue as a first priority, pricing priorities can be much more simple. This also mitigates choices to stay on existing infrastructure to squeeze more money purely for the purposes of paying more dividends. Those choices will happen, but they should be to buy time for the next upgrade that is planned.
- Manufactured monopolies by virtue of connection agreements (Cable provider X is allowed to have a monopoly as a service provider for a municipality so long as they provide service to N% users) have turned out to be a poor incentive to provide up to date, quality, affordable service as the service matures. New fiber providers, whether muni or independent, seem to be taking a much more sustainable approach to buildout and growth. As a result, because they are capturing the market by virtue of a better product, at a better price, whenever these ISPs onboard a new neighborhood, they have to do what they do well to retain the subscriber base, because the alternatives may not be as good, but they're not awful.
1) It's difficult and very costly for new competitors to enter markets.
2) It's often impossible (without moving) for consumers to choose a competitive service.
Collective ownership works so well, especially for natural monopolies.
Lines like this really ought to be public infrastructure like roads and power lines. At least where I live tax payers paid for them anyway.
I would throw insurance into this mix too. At the end of the day, the government is on the hook for rolling out money when there are major disasters, so why not just start there instead of backstop there? How about we pool all our money in one big place (the government) instead of spreading it around in a bunch of smaller pools with different rules (private insurance).
In 1945, the government of Saskatchewan (Canada) recognized this and has been handling province wide insurance since then (Health, Home, Auto, etc). This has meant drastically lower insurance rates, because they aim to operate with no profit, and you don't have insurance companies suing each other for damages because everyone has the same insurance company. It creates lots of jobs, and better service for the residents.
States like Florida, California, North Carolina, and others have had to start their own insurance companies to handle residents who cannot get fire/flood/hurricane/etc insurance from a private insurance company because the private insurance companies have decided the risk is too high.
It seems silly to maintain this broken patchwork system when there are several examples of governments creating entities to handle these ubiquitous needs in a better way.
What a revelatory comparison, hidden entirely [from my Republican-led-state upbringing] in plain sight. Thank you [and please, go on...]:
I lived in Austin (grew up there) until 2016.
When Google Fiber began its rollouts, I remember the cable providers simply NOT ALLOWING GOOGLE ACCESS TO THEIR UTILITY POLES (they owned <10%, but in vital places this essentially crippled gFiber rollout for the first few years of litigation).
I got google fiber (Austin) in 2015, and when I chose to leave The Violet Crown, fiber internet was an absolute requirement... which is how I found myself in Chattanooga, Tennessee (thank god)!
Another poster said that infra in general is good in TN. My municipality has significantly higher than average tax burdens, but the road, water, waste management and schools are all ignored and in terrible condition. Collective ownership requires the collective to hold its leadership accountable for misbehavior.
This is why I'm looking for a place in the area... :D Not only for the beautiful scenery and wonderful people, but for the blazingly fast internets.
Here is a link to EPB's entire service territory (crosses into Georgia, briefly, and a bit into nearby Tennessee counties):
https://epb.com/outage-and-storm-center/energy-outages/
If you get your power via Chattanooga's Electric Power Board (even out in the sticks!) you can get 1gps+ synchronous fiber.
I am currently looking for land (to build upon) and without EPBfiber, I will not even consider purchasing.
Welcome, new neighbor(s).
Much of the neighboring areas of north Georgia and western North Carolina also have widely available fiber from the local electric and telephone co-ops. Obama's broadband stimulus paid for much of a fiber backbone that connects them running from north of Atlanta through the Tennessee Valley to Asheville and beyond.
My place in WNC is, sadly, just outside Blue Ridge EMC's footprint. Pay $100/m for 100/4 cable. The billboard on US-129 proclaiming "Big City Speeds & Performance, Small-Town Personal Service" irks me every time I pass by because the service is every bit as shitty as that slogan made me expect.
Is there a legitimate reason why TN blocks other municipalities from implementing similar service? Besides Regulatory capture or other forms of corruption as others suggest?
TN is the HN libertarian paradise. Vast majority of the state's people hate anything the government provides and want to kill it with fire. Especially if their neighbors could benefit from it.
They literally had situations where people were upset that fire service was going to be paid for, then got upset they had to pay for it to get it when their house was burning.
Here's a link to the FCC attempt to preempt the law https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-releases-order-preempting-t...
And the appeals decision overturning the preemption https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca6/15...
TN arguments were never really on why it would work besides claiming it would somehow protect TN residents from "mismanaged" municipal broadband. They mostly focus on how they can do it if they want to, no matter the reason.
10gb & 25gb are the higher tiers. I have the 10, it's pretty great. :)
I'm just going to guess: radiologist?
Similar to your last comment, here in the Boulder region, you will find a lot of techies actually living in Longmont, about 15 minutes north of Boulder, because they have a really good municipal fiber ISP.
I feel called out
...as I sit in my apartment connected to Nextlight (Longmont Power & Communications) at 2.5Gbps symmetrical for $150/m.
Same in Fort Collins CO. I think the director of EPB broadband headed the Connexion service here at the start. Also in Loveland, Estes Park. Incredibly good service for cheap.
Wonder how we can reward people like this for being awesome. Or force them to take jobs leading FCC or similar govt orgs :D
Huh. Is Chattanooga a posh locale? House prices don't look too far from New England.
Our housing market typically "lags" national markets by a few years (up & downs); but the recent whiplash effect has made the median homesale about 2x what it was in 2020. Also, inventory is lagging massively, and NIMBYism has prevented recent citywide attempts at allowing ADU's / increased density (e.g. see St.Elmo Historic District, which even though part of Chattanooga, exempts itself from most density rules by "being historic" — BS).
Also, there is A LOT OF MONEY here, concentrated in such mountaintop locations as Lookout Mountain [cited in MLK's "I Have a Dream" speech, specifically as an example of wealth/cronyism].
Our county did basically same thing in rural va. Our coop who the county partnered with is now expanding to 5 other counties. 1gb 75 mo. Its been down once in 4 years
I've actually seen this elsewhere as well. The local rural telephone cooperatives tend to have better service and better support if the customer base decides it and can afford it.
I have fiber provided by the city utility in Knoxville... is this an exception to that rule? (Moved here fairly recently).
I live in SLC. There are basically 3 categories of internet here:
1. Big Telecom: This includes Comcast, CenturyLink, etc. You are basically guaranteed to overpay, but service is usually pretty reliable. Last year I was paying >$100 for 1gbit down & 40mbit up on Comcast's coax; while every one of my neighbors had UTOPIA FTTH (the house I was renting was not connected to the network).
2. UTOPIA or Google Fiber: Yes, Google Fiber is another big telecom, but it's pricing ($70 for 1gbit symmetric FTTH) and reliability are practically identical to UTOPIA (the municipal network).
3. Residential lock-in: This is what I'm stuck with right now. I pay $100/mo. for ~120mbit with noticeably bad peering. The price is literally written into my apartment's lease, with no mention of speed or reliability.
I miss having actually good internet, but what I have is still much better than what I have lived with before.
Agreed. It's stunning how quickly I went from paying $100+ to Comcast for 250Mbps down / 20 up (or whatever), to $80 to AT&T for symmetric gigabit, to $50 to Sonic for symmetric 10gig. And presumably they're still making money!
Comcast has insane economies of scale, the rip they must make every single month on customers who are stuck with them is just sick.
Having a techy wife has made internet access speed our #1 qualifier for any moves over the past decade. Great neighborhood and price but it only has DSL or slow cable internet? Automatic veto.
I can only hope this becomes more and more obvious to politicians that wonder why their constituency is stagnating. Even my less techy parents recently shared that they voted yes on their city's project to build a local fiber ISP.
Funny enough, if the state would offer internet service in my eastern european country, it will be expensive and shitty, while the private fiber offers are dirt cheap and compete with each other on price.
I didn't think the Romanian competition authorities can do a better job than the US ones.
[And they probably can't, see high natural gas and electricity prices.]
I wouldn’t say it’s blocked in Tennessee. KUB (the Knoxville utilities company) recently introduced fiber
Meanwhile in Tacoma,WA our mismanaged muni ISP turned over managment to a local private company, which was then bought by global company Palisade Infrastructure.
https://www.thenewstribune.com/opinion/article270126722.html
I pay 59.99 before tax with "500/500" that is more realistically 140/140 with cox. and that's after negotiating for a 2-year contract. :(
Canadian here. I also live in a city with municipal fibre. No fancy additional services like some others here, but I pay around US$20 per month for Gigabit symmetric internet. The major national ISPs start at around 4x higher.
much freedom