At my company, we have daily standups and they throw off my whole morning. I only really work effectively when I am left to it and so have outlook/slack/messages turned off during periods where I am trying to focus - has got me in trouble with management a few times but I am not sure what else i can do.
The piece was a good read but its so personal to me that it doesn't really help sadly.
daily check-in throws off my morning too. i have an hour from when i start til check-in, which is not enough time to get into deep work. looking forward to moving to a new timezone where i can take advantage of that timing with two hours before check-in.
WFH encourages scheduled meetings. It's a nightmare. I'd much rather just get an interruption out of the blue than have someone schedule a meeting to talk to me, because in the run-up to the meeting I won't try to start anything (what's the point if I've got a pending interruption?) At least my standups are first thing in the morning.
I don't understand it. My company is fully remote but they are absolutely horrendous at async comms. I was trying to walk someone through adding a docker build process to their CI and.... he just couldn't communicate/understand it through slack and he wanted to schedule a meeting. Great, now instead of being able to respond while working on other things I have to cut out an entire hour of my day just for you.
Thanks.
Beyond that I refuse to do daily standups. I'll quit a company if they won't let me do async or communicate through slack. I'm not logging in and the start of my day being a meeting every single day. Absolutely not. I've been there before.
Interesting. I like the daily meeting - gives me an anchor for my day that works with the meds. But like most ADHD people when unmedicated I get more productive at night, so I can see why you'd hate the daily checkin.
I'm about 20 years in and the first 10 years of my career as a SWE I had absolutely horrendous managers and daily checkins felt more like proving to someone that you had done any work the day prior, shaming you if you didn't produce enough. I have a hugely negative connotation to them even today, vs feeling that they're a positive team-collab sort of scenario.
At two companies the actual CEO and CTO were in every single one of our standups (startups of course).
It's funny how good (or shitty) experiences shape things. I like peer reviews and regular 1:1s with management. I've had good experiences with them, and have sorely missed them at jobs where they didn't happen.
But I know good engineers (who are also good communicators) that loathe them with a great passion.
Idk if that has to do with async working. People pull that kind of stuff in office too. "Hey I don't get this, can we schedule some time so we can /you just do this for me " then you sit at a conference table or at their desk for an hour lol
that's unfortunate, you have 20 years of experience but don't want to pair program or help out other developers.
I'd much rather just get an interruption out of the
blue than have someone schedule a meeting to talk to me
Forme,out-of-the-blue interruptions are a worst case scenario for my ADHD. It's very hard for me to get into the "flow" if I know that I might be interrupted at any moment. I prefer scheduled meetings as a less-evil alternative.
But many many feel similarly to you.
In my experience scheduled meetings tend to be longer and involve more people than necessarily.
Also, somewhat contraintuitively, I often avoid starting some new work e. g. 30 minutes before a scheduled meeting, meanwhile without it I just start, and if interruption happens,... it just happens.
has got me in trouble with management a few times but I am not sure what else i can do
Don't worry about it. I think this is good advice for any software engineer. Eventually you'll be senior enough or on a different team and it won't be a problem.
Agreed, I'd add to give your manager your phone number for emergencies and tell them you've allow-listed their number to ring when others can't. Then get back to flow
That sounds like a terrible idea to me, I'd never want to do that. If they like the work I do, management should learn to respect the way I do it.
Sometimes there are genuine emergencies. If your company got hacked and is all hands on deck, you kinda have to be interrupted. There are situations in which emergencies may not be paged through normal systems.
If you like the company/team enough to work there, you should learn to respect the way it operates.
Hopefully it doesn't sound too combative, but I wanted to express that it's a two way street and compromises have to be found. I dislike various things in my company on a personal level, but often make sense from company/team point of view.
If you have the kind of clueless/toxic manager who is going to abuse this sort of arrangement, they are probably never going to agree to this sort of arrangement in this first place.
For nearly all working relationships, I think it's reasonable to keep an emergency communication channel open.
This exact complaint is very common among juniors I’ve mentored: A single meeting can destroy their productivity for hours following the meeting.
The most successful advice I’ve found is to find a way to reset after meetingswithout using your computer. For whatever reason, they’re emotionally drained after meetings. They get back to their computer and reach for Reddit or Twitter or something for a low effort snack, which then spirals into an hour or more of doomscrolling or distractions. This then translates into self disappointment at their low productivity, which further drives them to seek more cheap online entertainment and the cycle repeats.
So try something else. After your standup, go for a walk. Don’t use your phone. Do some stretches if you WFH or have a quiet place. Whatever you do, don’t fall into the rut that destroys your productivity.
This is an under-rated comment. I had a similar revelation that eventually led to the conclusion that thecomputeris a crucial part of the distraction, and that many activities are best performed at least partly without it. Examples include:
- taking breaks
- thinking through a problem
Taking a walk is a good way to combine the two.
I've tried all these tips and more. I've gone as far as taking a run after meetings. Nothing really works. I've come to conclude that the problem is the meeting itself, not the way you recuperate from it.
That's a bummer. My team does standup at 3 PM (we're also bi-costal), but I let the teams chose their time, and this is what one particular team chose. Maybe talk to some of your teammates, and maybe you all decide you want an afternoon standup, so you can hit the ground running in the morning for a few hours, before the interruptions start.
This is extra useful if your mornings are left for you to continue working on any problem where you had the chance to "sleep on it".
I found that standups help crystallize social consequences in my VM prefrontal cortex so they help keep me honest.
Haha yes
I'm the opposite. I have ADHD and I function much better with meetings, talking it out with other programmers, and the cacophony of noise from an open office. Everything distracts me anyway, so I'd rather it be work stuff than my own thoughts about some awkward moment I had in 1995.
Depends on where you are, but you can often get by, ignoring directives from management, if you are an active communicator and you’re completing assigned tasks.
It’s still better to state your problem. I like to use the “non-violent communication” as a template. Something like, “When we have the standup, I have a hard time refocusing on work afterwards. I’m concerned about the impact this has on my productivity. Can I send status updates via Slack?”
I’m not gonna pretend that this is a solution to your problem; I just want to sympathize and have a conversation about some of the strategies that we can use to fix problems with management that interfere with technical work.
we changed our standups to right after lunch and this has helped for everyone
This is because your brain is like ChatGPT: it's in a loop generating the next symbol based on the prior context. You need to load the context up, then you're ready to generate symbols. If there's a BS meeting, all that context is paged out and now you need to re-load it. Plus there are motivational aspects that make "loading context some AH manager just blew out my brain" more difficult.
Standups kind of destroy my flow as well. HOWEVER:
- Everything destroys my flow anyway. So $#&#$% fragile.
- Standups are 100x less destructive to my flow than randomunscheduledsynchronous communication.
- For management and collaboration purposes, I recognize the need for some kind of synchronous communication for most projects/jobs.
- When working remotely I've found video standups help keep me feeling connected to humanity.
- Most teams I've been on are quite understanding if you choose to miss standup and offer an update via Slack instead because you're "in the zone."
So.... they suck, but they have upsides for me, and I accept them as kind of a "least-bad compromise solution."
I think ADHD is the new norm.
Huh? ADHD is a debilitating and disabling disorder... I don't think you're talking about ADHD.
ADHD has little to no physiological markers. As the floor of expectations for attention and executive functioning continues to rise, the rate of diagnosis increases.
citation needed.
ADHD is a deficit in dopamine processing/production within the brain, it has physiological signs that we can look for:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s11689-022-09440-2
DSM-V and ICD?
ADHD is diagnosed based on symptoms, not based on physiological signs. Like most diagnoses, it's a co-occurring set of traits we'de decided is outside of what's normal.
Diagnosis is not the same as underlying physiological cause. The Browns or Vanderbilt assessments are useful for identifying the disorder because the symptoms are stereotypical.
This is being investigated and may eventually become part of the diagnosis (if you can afford the tests):
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2023.1026...
In conclusion, a series of biomarkers in the literature are promising as objective parameters to more accurately diagnose ADHD, especially in those with comorbidities that prevent the use of DSM-5. However, more research is needed to confirm the reliability of the biomarkers in larger cohort studies.
But yeah, generally there are a lot of conditions where you go report symptoms to your doctor or perhaps a specialist and they prescribe a treatment based on that alone. Testing is mostly used to rule out the really nasty possibilities or figure out what's actually going on when first-line treatments don't work.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2839459/#:~:tex.... Correct. fMRI studies show stark prefrontal activation differences between ADHD and neurotypical brains. I have run fMRI studies for air traffic controllers, who have the opposite experience from ADHD. Very high working memory and processing speed.
Very high working memory and processing speed
Are both of those really clinical markers for ADHD? as in, adhd would be expected to have low working memory and low processing speed? My understanding is its more about executive function I.E. deciding to start tasks.
admittedly my experience is coloured by my own clinical diagnosis of adhd plus anecdotally good working memory and processing speed
One imagines it's like a fast CPU with great L3 cache but nobody plugged the actual RAM in so you gotta use spinning rust as swap for bigger workloads.
One thing I noticed: Other people would get hyper from coffee, I would not. My brain would calm down a lot with the help of caffeine.
I would regularly down 3-4 red bulls (diet) in the evening if I knew I needed to fall asleep and sleep well. I'm not sure if it's been studied but anecdotal evidence from others seem to suggest I'm not alone and that some others have the same experience.
N=1, I sleep better on stimulants than off them. No problem falling asleep after drinking coffee (usually it makes memoresleepy), or even taking a prescribed stimulant before going to bed.
Same, coffee is quite sedating.
There is actual research on this. So n>>1.
Paradoxical effects are not uncommon. My DNA is weird. I have lots of them.
One example, is opiates make me MOVE. Most people they zonk out, not me. I'm ready to move your house, one brick at a time, with my bare hands and feel like I could knock it out in about an hour.
Proton Pump inhibitors are common meds for acid reflux. About 10 years ago, I did a genetics study (I worked at the lab, and my data stayed mine) and learned that of the 7 classes of PPIs available, at that time, my body only works with 1. The others either have little/no effect or similar.
ADHD is known to be highly hereditary and has genetic markets. I don't think it's normal, as it's fairly consistent globally (not all countries have the same access or culture around technology and yet ADHD occurs at around the same rates).
People can't see it. I've had someone chastise my son for missing an appointment due to his calendar app not working while standing right in front of a wheelchair bound person, then proceed to a discussion of accommodations with the latter :|
If you haven’t tried any sort of mindfulness/meditation program, I’d recommend one. I like Ten Percent Happier and enjoyed the app and its content (not affiliated in any way).
Being able to think about nothing is a skill/habit/muscle that needs to be learned and practiced. My mind still can churn but at least now I have the tools and some ability to tell it “not now” and quiet it some. It’s been pretty dramatic, especially in being able to fall asleep quicker.
Unfortunately genuine ADHD is a physiological problem that requires stimulant therapy _and_ cognitive behavior therapy in conjunction. Your dopamine and/or acetylcholine receptors are out of whack. This is why coffee and cigarettes/vapes are so prevalent. Methylphenidate or dexamphetamine work best but you pay a price. Yes, I have real world executive function research lab experience, so I know a bit of what I'm talking about. You need a good neurologist.
Maybe you can provide some perspective here: it seems almost universal that people who start these medications never find a dose that provides durable benefit over the long term. Makes sense; we acclimate to a new dopamine baseline, right? Almost everyone I know ends up on a significantly higher dose than they started with.
And the stories of feeling like a zombie when off meds are very real and pretty freaky.
I am someone with severe adhd and I only use meds ( adderal) if needed. The side effects are heavy on the long run.
Having coping mechanisms and and understanding surrounding is way more important.
Without that and only meds I am only the person with the highest tension in the room.
And my adhd was measured. Low dopamine.
Btw I tried a adhd friendly diet and sports once . I don’t know if it was placebo or real but it felt like it helped much.
Mini meditative naps of 5 minutes also help if my brain is on the run.
Honestly in my opinion meds are the easy way out but the side effects make alternatives necessary. On the long run there need to be better solutions that imply that society has to go a step toward the mentally divergent or Ill and respect their behavior as good willing and maybe find a better way to incorporate those in the workplace and social life.
Sorry for edit:
For example. If I have one of those adhd moments, where I am bit to specific about something and talk too much because of it, my friends recognize this and tell me to „ wake up“. And everything is fine. But if someone like this is needed.. there I am ;)
My experiences as well. In the long run for me, meds are a small part of the solution.
One thing you didn't mention was night time sleep, which is actually maybe the biggest single thing for me. The rest matches my experiences exactly.
I love the part about respecting and embracing neurodiversity.
I was on Adderall for ~6-7 years. The following is just my personal experience but it seems to match well with the vast majority of anecdotal experiences I have read about inmany manyyears of being immersed in this stuff... although these won't be true for 100% of people.
Almost everyone I know ends up on a significantly
higher dose than they started with.
Two: Many/most people seem to avoid dosage creep by reducing or limiting their dose on weekends or on other days when it is feasible. If you take e.g. 20mg every day, 365 days a year, it's pretty much guaranteed to lose effectiveness. But if you can take that down to ~5-10mg on weekends that helps. Also weaning yourself off of it entirely from time to time seems to provide a reset. Doctors seem to never tell anybody this.
And the stories of feeling like a zombie when off
meds are very real and pretty freaky.
If you do significant amounts of stimulants every day and then go cold turkey you're gonna have a real bad time for a day or three.
On the other hand if you steadily taper your dosage down to 0mg over ~3-7 days it's not bad at all.
Again, doctors seem to never tell anybody this.
BTW, while I am kind of "rebutting" your points I am not pushing Adderall. There are downsides to it. It made me more high-strung and prone to arguments and stress. The frequent shortages are a nightmare. And so on. I eventually moved on.
Did modafinil ever come up in your lab? I was DXed ADHD somewhat by surprise and due to the situation, medication was not an option (and is rather difficult to obtain in my country anyhow). After reading about off-label use of modafinil for ADHD, I gave it a go, and it has worked very well from my POV.
Yet this is not the current stance of the industry that is trying to select the correct people for extermination instead of help people.
What does a neurologist do anyway. I have CP and ADHD, yet haven't been referred and think all. It's not clear what they'd even do.
As someone with a lot of focus potential, its mildly frustrating to read these accounts because even I'm terribly distracted, if I let myself be. But I've been meditating for a while and, in conjunction with a lot of discipline around avoiding social media, have been able to hit a sweet spot.
I wonder though if I never discovered these two things, and simply absorbed everything I read online and convinced myself I had ADHD and got on meds. It's modern life, getting people down. There's simply no way to break through without recognizing that life is inherently distracting, and finding strategies around that.
This is not dismissing the reality of ADHD, however, only to note that medication is overprescribed and that many confuse biology with extremely targeted algorithms designed to capture attention.
And then there are the drug companies who capitalize on workers required to maintain long periods of focus; knowing they are vulnerable to performance pressure, they flood the industry with marketing. Next thing you know, an entirely healthy person's attention is destroyed, because the new baseline is oriented around a stimulant which they do not need, and which operate contrary to someone who actually has ADHD, which meds benefit. Like the opiate crisis, its all just an everyday American tragedy.
I will try this, thanks!
Agreed. I like the vibe of Ten Percent Happier which is kind of like "Yeah, I thought this meditation stuff was bogus, but, for some reason it helps. No, it won't solve all of your problems, but it does seem to make things 10 percent better. And don't even think about saying 'Namaste.'" :-)
Being distracted (even a lot) and actually having ADHD are very different things
Thanks, also had this discussion with a colleague (obviously not having ADHD) who thought he understands what I’m (having ADHD diagnosed) talking about and I argue he does not. I then almost started to doubt my own perception abilitiesInsertHugeFacepalmHere
If you ever forget or wonder if you have ADHD vs being inattentive, just look back at its affects on your romantic relationships and how much it damaged them or made them more difficult.
How often a partner probably told you that they felt neglected or forgotten, or how often you'd wind up in a rabbit hole and forget that you also have to nourish that relationship.
Oof. This hits close to home. I have ADHD and my partner recently ended a nearly six-year relationship, for several reasons (as it would be with any long-term relationship where you were planning to get married), but feeling neglected and like she had to constantly compete for my attention was one of them. Neither of us really explicitly/consciously realized this was one of major sources of unhappiness/friction at the time, at least not until close to the end. I don't blame her though. Looking back, yeah, wow, I really wasn't doing a good job of paying attention to her and her needs, even though I cared so so so deeply about her. Lessons learned, I suppose. I know now that this is something to be mindful of and put active effort into counteracting in my next long-term/serious relationship.
Totally agree. I stopped counting long time ago.
This!!! ADHD is unfortunately named based on misunderstanding of the prefrontal cortex. It is executive function disorder. Similar behaviors occur from prefrontal cortex trauma. Barkley notes that ADHD stays so named because it is tied legally to entitlements.
This reflects exactly my day to day struggles. Especially that productivity boost when every one starts leaving, and I _was not able_ to finished the smallest one of my tasks planned for the day 'til then most of the time. I'm writing "was not able" on purpose here, because as someone (being blessed) with ADHD, your brain does not allow you to make progress on the smallest tasks due to all those fireworks being blown around you in your brain.
During my part-time studies (I had a 70-80% employment at that time) the time I really started studying productively was after 9-10pm when everyone around me went to finish their day and the world around me started to go silent and night is coming in. Thinking of it today, I don't know how I would have survived that time without the huge support from my wife back then. So all the credits of me being able to complete my studies go to her!
Nowadays, I would not know how I would get through the day-to-day work without medication most days. That often worries me a little.
Yup, I think all the meds for this can succumb to tolerance. A real life Flowers for Algernon. Over the years I've upped the dose, switched meds, drug holidays but nothing has matched how well my brain worked the first couple of years on meds.
nothing has matched how well my brain worked the first couple of years on meds
As someone who also has a bit more than 2 decades experience with ADHD medication and started with meds quite early in my teenage years when I went to school, I have very similar experience to yours.
One of my assumptions is that it also has a lot to do with the humans metabolism that changes over the years.
One of my assumptions is that it also has a lot
to do with the humans metabolism that changes
over the years.
The first few weeks on Adderall were f'ing magical. I remember tearing up, I was so happy. Finally I was laser-focused. A bit emotional thinking of it now.
The magic faded fast. Adderall was still a large net positive for me for ~6-7 years. But never like those first few weeks. I guess I gotsomewhat closeto that original experience a few times, after extended breaks from Adderall and restarting it.
Anyway, this is of course a sample size of 1. But since all the experiences described above took place in my 30s I don't think that metabolism change was a major factor. Certainly not within the first year. Again I know... n=1 =)
Well, I'm jealous. For me it was literally like... the first fewweekson adderall lol.
I continued to benefit from it for ~6-7 years. But, never felt anything like those first few weeks.
Such a minor part of your comment, but I simply cannot focus on anything if my apps aren't all fullscreen. I have two monitors, and two applications visible at any time. Right now I have this on one screen and a non-work YouTube video on the other (Your Mom's House is a great podcast btw, especially if you already have YT premium).
I have trouble focusing, I don't think quite to the level of ADHD, but it would be so much worse if I had 4 or 5 apps on each screen.
I don't think quite to the level of ADHD
Or you found coping mechanisms. We all figure out what works for us. Like drinking a ton of coffee or things with caffeine... you're self medicating with your stimulant of choice.
That's fairly common. Think back to old school paper workflows or studying for school. Some people can concentrate with 5 books open and papers strewn all over the place. Others can't stand to have but one book open and one sheet of notes.
You know, it's funny how different we are all when it comes to this.
I need all my apps visible in a tiled arrangement. Shuffling windows shatters my flow. Iliterallycannot have enough screen real estate. My dream is something like a curved 48" 8K monitor filling my entire field of view at 300dpi. (Vision Pro?)
I know a lot of people, ADHD and otherwise, like me in this regard.
I also know a guy like you, diagnosed with ADHD FWIW, who takes it a little further than you. He needs his apps fullscreened, and can't even do multiple monitors. One screen, one app.
I don't know how the f-- he works that way but I'm jealous. He's effective and has no trouble working on a 13" laptop in a coffee shop or whatever.
I think ADHD is the new norm.
Maybe selection bias, but a significant number of my friends are diagnosed.
5% of the population have the disorder. Self selection may be causing you to see it as very prevalent.
I think that may be true.
I also think it's true that many professions will aggressivelysurfaceADHD.
Imagine a plumber making house calls all day. There's a fair bit of structure and variety baked into his day, he's moving around, gets to use his hands, etc. It's hard and skilled work but it also might be really compatible with ADHD.
Now think of a software engineer. 8-10 hours of monofocus on a single task every day. It's just you and the computer... which also has the largest array of distractions (the internet) just a click away. Fucking nightmare scenario for ADHD. If you've got even a hint of ADHD this career will expose it and expose it hard.
There may be a little bit of birds of a feather flocking together on this one. Similarly my closest circle have all got a diagnosis of something or other. Most are in the IT field too.
For me personally I mostly attribute this to how the circle initially formed - a bunch of outcasts to varying degrees new to college glomping on to any familiar faces from highschool (despite not really interacting during high school)
Any additions since college were adopted into the group through a mutual "we're the weirdos in this world, aren't we?" initial bond.
I find that, if time allows, I get a massive productivity boost after 4:30pm
This sounds oddly specific. How consistent is this time? If you start working an hour earlier does it impact the timing of your productivity boost?
I experience a flow state around that time as well. Mostly because everyone leaves the office. 0630-0730 and 1630-1730 have become my golden hours. Which is weird because body doubling is often an effective tool for me. My true “0430” like the parent comment is really at 2000, but I force myself into a normal sleep schedule and fail often.
Does the time change for you with season and light exposure? I sometimes experience this sort of thing too, where I will have a consistent window of productivity at an unusual time, but it never lasts for a more than a few months.
Yeah. My body/brain's natural "mental flow" time is really early mornings.
In reality, I generally have too much external distraction around me in the morning to capitalize on this.
So my actual productive hours are basically like, "whenever I am reasonably sure that everybody else will leave me the fuck alone for the next few hours." Which often means, "the end of the work day when everybody is signing off for the day."
I find that, if time allows, I get a massive productivity boost after 4:30pm and everyone is either winding down or leaving.
The most important ADHD accommodation for me has been a private office (in my case working from home).
I'm insanely distractible—the slightest noise can throw me off, and even the threat of an impending interruption is enough to make me lose focus thinking about how I'll respond if it comes. In an open office, I had very little control over my environment, and so it was impossible for me to keep focused for any length of time. If it wasn't a coworker interrupting me personally, it was a conversation happening behind me, or even just someone walking by and me wondering if they're going to interrupt.
At home, I have a private office with a locked door, and I put on hearing protection over earbuds, which blocks essentially all sounds from the house. I can control my notifications, so if I'm in flow I'm completely uninterruptible.
The other big benefit from privacy is that I don't have to feel guilty when I do get distracted with something. There's no one to see me and judge me for not "looking like I'm working", so when I do lose focus for hours and then get the whole day's work done in a single hour of hyperfocus, no one knows or cares that I couldn't stay focused that day—all they see is that I finished what I said I would. Privacy allows me to use mystrengths(working well under pressure) without fear of judgement.
Why not put these earbuds in the office?
Overthinking responses to interruptions, looking for visual cues etc?
This comment absolutely reads as someone with ADHD telling a story :D
I think self-deprecating humour is one and sometimes the only weapon against today. Glad it made you smile!
I want to add that I've also been diagnosed with ADHD so I didn't mean anything bad by it :)
during covid I was "overemployed" at first 2 jobs, then 3 (which I sustained for over 8 months). Some of it was luck, like not having conflicting meetings, having jobs in different timezones, and the leniency given due to the chaos of the times, but I actually did get work done. But during the average day, I was only there to respond to slack and participate in meetings. I wouldn't really "work" as in write code, until after the sun went down (and I was west-coast working a central time job). I was just a body in a seat until the day was over, then once I knew nobody was available to pester me or expect me to do something, I could crack open the editor and hyperfocus. I also found that getting up super early, I could hyperfocus for an hour or 2 in the AM, then about 9-10am once all the meetings and bs started, I was just an actor. The rest of the time was juggling tasks and procrastinating, and using that energy to drive me to get work done. I would work saturday and sunday mornings (often, not always), but once my focus was lost I would stop. It was a hell of a time, but I learned that (like you) certain times of the day just weren't compatible with getting anything done. I dont think it's correct to say its due to "overstimulation" or caffeine, I think it has to do with brain states, and somehow knowing that I had to be available on slack (or had to make sure my mouse jiggler kept my status green) seemed to be enough to break me away from writing code.
Was it worth it to have multiple jobs?
For me personally, yes. I had gone into debt from gambling and bad financial discipline. OE allowed me to pay off all my debt and put a down payment on a house. Watching "number go down" in rapid fashion was very rewarding, and I wasn't a very active person to begin with so I didn't miss out on as much as a regular person would, being holed up in an apartment for virtually the whole year. But towards the end it had an effect on me, it definitely wasn't sustainable.
I have been fired while I was off getting more insurance-approved stimulants.
You ask us to perform unreasonably tops, then hate us for inventing doordash and shit because: we were smart labor, not cheap.
In the US? EEOC would like to have a word with your employer.
I’m too old and arrogant to be litigious. I just try to clear the path for the next generation by equipping them with expectations that match reality closer than I got.
Add to today: kids, imessages, facebook, twitter, mastodon, instagram, emails, slack, discord... How the fuck do I even survive the week?
uh, perhaps by not using all of those things? sounds like you're uber distracted
Kids: not even once.
Seriously, though, there might be external factors at play; different social circles might use these things and abandoning the apps could be the same as abandoning the groups.
You’re at work. Sure, there’s Slack - but dial the notifications down as much as you can. Almost none of us need access to social tools in that time. If you can’t help yourself then do what developers do and use tech to stop you reaching for those things.
I hate having stand-up early am. If you get to work early, there's little motivation to start anything significant just because you'll be soon interrupted. Mid day before lunch is great, you get a sleep period in between two work sessions which often leads to better solutions. Everyone wants to go to lunch so the meeting moves at a quick pace, you have lunch time to decompress and absorb it. There's a morning block and afternoon block for uninterrupted deep work. It gives people a flexible arrive time in the morning, they aren't struggling to make it in for the meeting.
I have migrated toward process and disaster recovery/avoidance over time. In the last ten years I have spent a lot of time thinking about the latter because everywhere I have ever worked, if an emergency goes on long enough I am one of the last three people still having a coherent thought at the end, and often the only person with enough brain cells to summarize what just happened and propose a 5 Why’s theory. Which sounds like bragging if you ignore the consequences of this, which is that I am also the last person to recover to 100% in the following days. Which is exactly why I’m thinking about it so much.
I have learned at least two things about myself and a few about other people from all of this. For myself, I know I am overly acclimated to blowing past my limits into my reserves. I am used to constantly monitoring my mental state and pushing for breaks.
For others, I know that adrenaline and cortisol reduce everyone’s cognitive abilities. It’s why we do fire drills. It’s why NASA launch facilities ritualize everything. Save your brain cells and improvisational skills for things we can’t predict, not for things we can.
In the first hours of an emergency, everyone else’s brain turns to mush while mine gets just a little squishy. What for them is their worst work day in months is to me just a bad Tuesday. And self monitoring is one of the first things to go. They’re operating at 80% while I’m at 95%, and they absolutely won’t call for breathers without prompting.
On projects where I am at the periphery, we all struggle together. On projects where I get to influence the agenda, or even father chunks of it, people often walk back out of that room feeling like they braced for a collision that never came, because I’ve routed around all of the foot guns and created low cognitive load ways to answer the important questions. If anyone has been complaining about me spending “too much time” on this, about half of them are convinced after one or two non-event events. If the majority of the people didn’t agree with my methods before, they do now.
I used to say I spend my A-game days protecting myself from my C-game days, but these days I’m more likely to cite Kernighan’s aphorism about not being smart enough to debug your own code. Write all of your code like you’re going to have to wrestle with it on an off day, because you certainly will at some point.
And putting high functioning ADHD people in charge of process and tooling is not a terrible idea. If you can figure out who those people are, that is. To be high functioning means constantly masking, because in this world it’s better to be rude and aloof than to be seen as broken.
On my current project our hot fix process is so bullet proof that I could do a hot fix in the middle of our sprint demo. And I have, three times. Once while I was the MC. All of that was me, and the automation tools I wrote for myself are the official process now. And instead of a bus number of 3 it’s somewhere north of 6. Important, especially this time of year.
1 or 2 emails a day. Bliss.
Just reading that made me feel the presence of 'bliss' :)
I remember once I had to travel for family, to a different timezone, I was super productive. Only 1 14" screen and a different timezone. Pedal to the metal.
I think the pop-culture definition of ADHD has shifted a lot. In the past, being able to focus well (as you described in a different environment) would have been a sign that the issue was more environmental in nature, not a sign of clinical ADHD. Patients with ADHD struggledeverywhere, even in distraction-free environments like a quiet library or quiet test taking environment.
Now, the pop-culture understanding of ADHD has shifted so far that we don’t bat an eye at declaring ADHD even when someone is operating under a constant barrage of environmental distractions. To be clear, someone with ADHD will have an even harder time resisting impulses to seek out distractions, but the fact that someone can focus just fine when their environment is minimally structured to keep distractions at a reasonable level would suggest that person doesn’t have classic ADHD.
I think ADHD is the new norm.
I think this is my problem with the current pop-culture definition of ADHD: When the definition shifts so much that it becomes the “norm”, we’ve lost the plot. Something isn’t really a disorder if it’s “the norm”.
There’s a secondary problem I’ve been noticing in a subset of the young people I’ve worked with: Some of them self-diagnose with ADHD or get a doctor’s diagnosis, then mistakenly think that their ADHD diagnosis is an excuse for everything. I’ve had far too many conversations where I had to gently explain to juniors (via a volunteer mentor program, not as their boss) that having an ADHD diagnosis doesn’t mean that deadlines don’t apply them, or that they get a free pass for being late to meetings, or that they’re still obligated to perform at the level of their peers at work. Some of them have grown up in an environment where ADHD students get extra time to take tests, which some of them assume should translate to more forgiving expectations at work. It’s difficult to get some of them to accept that having ADHD means they need more accountability and oversight, not less.
I think we’re making a huge mistake by normalizing ADHD to the point that people think it’s the norm or that everyone has it because they surround themselves with distractions. Anecdotally, I’ve seen too many young people self-diagnose with ADHD and then actually spendlesseffort to curtail distractions, train their focus, and work on self-improvement. There’s something about becoming convinced that your behaviors are a medical condition that is out of your control (many erroneously declare they have a “dopamine deficiency” or similar misunderstandings of the science) that can give people a false sense that they either can’t improve their situation or that they shouldn’t be held responsible because it’s a labeled medical condition.
I don’t know where we go from here, but I can say it’s been an uphill battle to get recent mentoring cohorts to accept that attention is something they can improve with practice or even that they need to do things like silence phone notifications while they work.
I’m often stunned when I screen share with someone who has a non-stop stream of unimportant notifications in the top right corner, who later laments that they just can’t focus on anything for someone.
The Blinking LED,
A simple Hack that still works for me after years:
1. Place a tiny LED (red or yellow) by the side of your monitor or virtually on the screen corner. Basically anywhere almost bordering your field of view.
2. Make it blink like a fast heartbeat (120-150 bpm) and gradually slowdown to around 60 bpm (or your slow heartbeat base). Make the slope approx 20 to 60 minutes (you can adjust the best rate by testing in 10m increments after a few days in one setting).
Now...
3. Get to work regardless if distracted and agitated. Close all apps except what you need to work and BOOM!, let the magic happen. Without realising, your brain will try to sync with the light that you can barely see, calming you down and allowing you to go focus-mode with the task in had.
Works like hypnosis!
It is also a cheap hack... I build my unit with a cheap ESP32 and heart-rate sensor to sync deeper and dynamically adjust the slope...
Will explain better if any interest.
No science behind (only principles), I just hammered a solution like any Ape with the shakes would need!
Seems likely to be a placebo. You have a vested interest in it working, admit its not based on any sort of science, and one of the setup steps is to overcome distraction (which is the problem that’s trying to be solved).
Seems likely to be a placebo. You have a vested interest in it working, admit its not based on any sort of science, and one of the setup steps is to overcome distraction (which is the problem that’s trying to be solved).
Fundamentally, if it works for the OP, who the hell cares?
And how would you even double-blind test this anyway?
And how would you even double-blind test this anyway?
Get lights that either start fast and slow down or blink at speeds that randomly change then use serial numbers to track which lights are which, but send them out at random to test subjects?
Which treatment you're in is relatively easily detectable, so unfortunately that wouldn't work.
I like the approach though, it would be a reasonable control condition (assuming that the 60bpm is a core part of the effect).
Trivially, given a small amount of money.
He sees a correlation, correlations are amongst the easiest thing to test.
Causation is the difficult one
Not to be too confrontational, but why did you feel the need to point this out? When someone has a solution that works for them, why possibly ruin it for them by pointing out placebo?
Mind you, pointing out placebo could be useful if the OP made the claim that their solution could cure a disease or something (such claims could discourage someone from getting effective treatment).
When someone has a solution that works for them, why possibly ruin it for them by pointing out placebo?
You are likely aware of this already, but for others readers, it's important to know that placebos are still effective even when you know they are placebo. The term is "open-label placebo".
the first time I tried antidepressants I had this effect. I evenknewabout the placebo effect, and Iknewthey take multiple weeks to do anything. but yet the day after I took the first pill I started wondering if things were getting better and I was trying to deny it, but it felt like a change. (spoiler: it had the opposite effect and once they took effect I could barely get out of bed lol). It was just incredible knowing that it was placebo but still feeling the effect.
Music BPM has the same effect. For me personally the right cadence can almost induce a flow state immediately.
It’s not. It’s called brainwave entrainment and it’s well studied with both sound and light having a strong effect that’s measurable on EEG.
Yes, it could be the placebo effect, but placebo works wonders ; )
I detailed better aspects on a question above,
Placebo need you to trust it works (or see a figure of authority to believe it does), in my case I expect nothing and got not much on v.1 (software) by v.3 (hardware) it is surprising.
; )
Intriguing. Wonder if sound would work also.
I used to hear to Hucci alot back in the day because most of his songs would hover around 60-70 BPM, I'd gather it was having a similar effect.
I use Erik Satie a lot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pyhBJzuixM). Also ASMR videos of mechanical keyboards (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zq5blZL1P4). Wonder what a light with some randomness would do.
You could hook up some physiological monitors and try all kinds of light patterns.
Try Endel! Works great for this type of stuff IMO.
Does seem good. I laid it on top of some typing sounds, and it's a bit elevator muzak but that might be why it works.
It does, but the blinking was better in my case.
I used to do beats high to low, instrumental music basically.
; )
Nice idea, but sound distracts me very much, I just wanted to suggest a package deal: blinking led with a pair of noise canceling earbuds :)
Get to work regardless if distracted and agitated. Close all apps except what you need to work and BOOM!, let the magic happen
Isn't this the part that actually does the heavy lifting to get stuff done?
Most productivity hacks are window dressing around this.
Yeah, but this blinking light is still at another level. I'm glad it works for the OP, but to me this really stood out as pretty absurd.
Sounds a bit like: I have a hard time falling asleep, so I have this blinking light next to my bed. I take a sleeping pill and let the magic happen. My heart rate then syncs to the light and I fall asleep. This light works great!
Fascinating! A few questions:
- once the LED has slowed down to 60 bpm, do you keep it at that tempo for the rest of the day? for a few hours? do you ever go back to 120 bpm and then go back down?
- generally speaking, how did you come up with the idea?
- do you think that a software version (i.e. some blinking pixels in the top right corner of a monitor) would work, or is the intensity of the LED (i.e. the fact that it's not part of the monitor) part of the reason why it works?
- could you also talk about the heart-rate sensor - how do you use it / how does it affect the bpm algorithm?
Thanks!
Sure,
Here is what I did to my current v.3+
- Once it reaches the lowest rate, the LED goes off after a 30min timer set, it fades the light over that time under the same blinking rate. So I won't notice. - The Idea comes from desperation really, mostly curiosity on why sound beats from upbeat music had a effect to improve mood, i.e. work more at gym. Also the idea that your brain will take patterns and try to synch with. Check PubMed (few articles about) - I started with a software version (v.1 and v2) and then a hardware one. No idea why, but hardware (as a side device) works really good. I 3D printed a tiny case and it is discreetly below my iMac screen powered by the USB. Look like an old modem but tiny.
Finally...
- I added the heart monitor (a cheap cable and wrist sensor) to see if I could shorten the time to achieve the lowest rate of blink based on my heart response instead of waiting the time or trying to read brainwave pattern (I try measuring voltage and electric wave form, from a headband I bought and returned after a rapid test) but the signal would mix with the work in front of me, so useless and expensive.
Using heart rate looks cheap, non-intrusive and effective to shorten the time, it goes 1/3 of time to get lowest, could use an apple watch vs cable and sensor but I'm cheap.
; )
Thanks, super interesting!
There was research some time ago (jeez, 10 years ago...) [0] [1] that used video and... computer vision algorithms to detect a person's heart rate without any devices. Wondering if it could be used here i.e. use your webcam instead of an external hardware sensor?
Other thing - would you be open to publishing/sharing your algorithm / esp32 code (on Github or as a blog article)?
[0]https://news.mit.edu/2012/amplifying-invisible-video-0622
Have you considered building this as a product and selling it? I could see this with a kickstarter or even Shark Tank!
Hi thanks for complement,
I guess you would be a client ; )
No, I have hundreds of things I do and very few go to product or build phase.
For this personal issue, I would not be comfortable claiming it could do anything for others like what it does for me. Also I'm not based on anything other than experimental data.
I'm happy to share it here and FREE.
I run a tech incubator in the UK, so hands full : )
OMG. I could not do this. I hope it's useful to others, but not for me...at all.
The biggest distraction for me, when working/focusing, is movement at the edge of my vision. You know, like most websites with their moving ads, or fly-out videos that no one asked for, etc.
I'm glad you found your silverbullet, but that specific approach would wreck my productivity.
I don't recommend my solution BUT
Your description is close to what I experience at times, that blinking thing may help you ignore outside the monitor distractions as it is there forcing you to ignore?
Interesting,
Do one and tell me ; )
I cost me $25 or less.... all spares ESP32 (most of them has a LED pinned anyways) and don't bother the heart monitor initially, just set time and rate of descent for the blink.
Cheap test...
I like Binaural Beats for this, plenty of Apps on offer.
Started out with this one and hacked a bit on it, never published my version though:https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.github.axet.binauralbeat...
Now i'm pretty content with this one:https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.project.rb...
And this tune, it now is on my phone and every PC thanks to NewPipe.
Yes, it could be the placebo effect, but placebo works wonders ; )
I detailed better aspects on a question above,
Mostly when I added the heart monitor, somehow I can measure that the time to lowest blink got shorter and I'm not paying attention to the device at all.
When I realise it us OFF I can see the logs and see how long it take vs the heartbeat to sync.
Also, I build myself so I like there was no marketing or product to trust, just test and adjust.
"Make the slope approx 20-60 minutes", to be clear does this mean it should take that period of time to gradually go from 120 to 20-60?
Yes, I started with a 1 hour slope... from 150 to 60 over that time.
Also it is not really a blink but a quick fade in/out effect not a flash.
Reminds me of this:https://jacobshapiro.substack.com/p/teaching-at-the-brains-t...
What would be really useful is a follow-up study that used GPs LED optical trick to influence the brainwave frequency.
IOW, set the frequency to a known external stimulus, and see if the effect still holds.
This should be a product.
[delayed]
You could probably just implement this in software on a side monitor even...
I explained above on another question, did started as Software (v.1 and v.2) but I guess my brain tried to ignore and sabotage the work on the screen, so I placed as a tiny device underneath (gotcha F brains!).
Like tricking the brain to see as not part of the work.
; )
oh sh*t. here we go again. another IoT that I would love to start and then abandon for some reason knowing full well how fix it but not find the "time" to do it.
[delayed]
Great idea, where can I buy one?
Nice tip. Thanks for sharing. I'll probably try this by making a cheap one with one of my kids' microbits. This seems like the perfect board for doing this.
Do you have a script you could share?
Sounds like a time timer. The ventromedial pfc is the culprit here. Time blindness.
I used to think I had some ADHD symptoms: growing up I never did any revision for any of my school exams until a couple of days before, all my coursework and projects were done last minute in a week of intense focus, I've had issues with drugs in the past etc.
Then I met someone who actually has ADHD and saw them before they'd taken their stimulant drugs. They were completely nonfunctional in any sense of the word, they'd be trying to have five conversations with you at once and it took them about 30 minutes to put their shoes on, it looked like absolute hell.
Next to that I really don't have any issues and I don't think I'd be able to handle being prescribed psychoactive drugs.
Ever since meeting that person I've been a lot more hesitant to self-diagnose problems.
Note that ADHD can manifest physically, mentally, or a combination of the two. I've been recently diagnosed with ADHD in my late 30s after finally seeing a psychiatrist, and at most my physical manifestation of it is minor fidgeting.
Where it really burns me is not being able to dedicate brainpower for more than a few minutes at a time, unless I'm in one of my "focus" modes. Similarly, my brain constantly has multiple tasks/"conversations" going on and I'm always thinking of something else. Additionally, I'm always chasing something novel to satisfy some dopamine hit.
I've honestly worked around a lot of the issues I deal with prior to being diagnosed, knowing when I'm not in a "focus" mode and trying to (gently) steer back to being productive. I joke about my "gaming ADHD" where I don't sit with a game for more than a half hour or so before moving on to something else. Internal dialogues are just something I work with.
Not saying you're right or wrong, but it's difficult to compare someone else's problems with your own (potential) issues.
e: Also note that there are non-stimulants on the market. I'm currently trialing one while I wait for a cardiologist to review some records for possible stimulant conflicts.
Did you have the inability to read books? I notice that I simply cannot focus on reading a book to save my life. I can read internet comments and articles all day though. If I try to read a book I get annoyed that they're "not making their point" fast enough, especially with fiction and visual descriptions of people and places. I used to just complain about it, but now I wonder if thats actually pinpointing something wrong with my brain (such as ADHD). If I'm reading fiction, I do not translate the word "red" with the color, things like that. And usually within 2-3 paragraphs, my eyes are reading the text but my brain is thinking about computers or what I need to get done that weekend. It's awful because I'm missing out on an entire mode of art but I dont know what to do about it. I've only been enthralled in a book once or twice in my 40 years of life.
My issue with reading is that my eyes will continue on while my brain has already left the station, so to speak. I'll end up having to go back and re-read sentences/paragraphs.
I started doing some research (prior to speaking with my psychiatrist) and started noticing some ADHD-esque behaviors in my toddler. I'm not looking to get them diagnosed (yet?), because who knows what is "normal young kid inattentiveness and hyperactivity" versus anything else, but ADHD is absolutely hereditary and a family history is one aspect that is/was used to diagnose.
This is a good resource I've read (well, listened to the audiobook of..):https://www.amazon.com/Driven-Distraction-Revised-Recognizin...
I think your situation (especially with your child) outlines one of the insidious challenges we face in our modern society: breaking through the confusion and understanding the nuance of an issue (in this case, ADHD).
We've all heard the misinformation tropes "Back inmy day, a kid was hyper because he wanted toplay, nowadays $BOGEYMAN says those kids need to be medicated so they can get a 4.0", and they sound so alluring to large groups of people, so they write off ADHD altogether. Yet I distinctly remember kids from my childhood who could not hold a conversation, they would literally break off into a new topic while you were mid-sentence with them. Tell me how that kid canpossiblylearn anything if he doesn't even know that he vacated a conversation.
This is a parallel to George Carlin's "It's calledshell-shock" spiel, or used by people to deny the existence of depression. It's very difficult to both convey nuance, and get people to accept it, even though it (the nuance) abuts life-threatening issues.
Yet I distinctly remember kids from my childhood who could not hold a conversation, they would literally break off into a new topic while you were mid-sentence with them.
I have some variant of this - I'm constantly, subconsciously cutting in during someone else's sentence just to blurt out what immediately came to my brain, because I usually forget it by the time they are done. It's something I'm really working on, but it gets better day-by-day.
For people my age it was "Back in my day, people applied good old fashioned discipline. That's all ADHD is, a lack of discipline." Often discipline came via the strap or similar.
I have this happen, I noticed reading is something I kind of need to practice. Maybe short comments ruined my brain lol.
I started getting into reading long books again last year. The beginning was rough, I was starting to think there was something wrong me. Sometimes I still do, but just being consistent and not hard on my self, I'm able to focus longer on reading and enjoy it. Some books and authors are easier then others too. LOTR series was work at times, enders game was pretty easy.
Alot if non fiction sucks too though and is pretty long winded.
If your worried about missing out on writing, there are short stories, and novellas to read
Just one data point but my psychiatrist said that in his in clinical experience he’s never seen the non stimulants help
Yeah, mine said it's ~50/50 shot. We're trying the non-stimulant while waiting on the cardiologist to do a deeper look at a potential heart issue.shrug
The most I've felt with the atomoxetine is a loss of appetite, which I'm not opposed to for the time being :)
Yup! I wish more people who say they have ADHD could have that experience. If someone says they have ADHD but they are unmedicated and they already are holding down a decent job but are only recently kind of struggling with something they called distraction or issues with focus... Then I say they don't have ADHD because it's so much more than that. It is issues with actual executive function. It is being unable to put your shoes on because you can't keep a straight train of thought because someone else is distracting you and you can't help but following all those threads of distraction while you are trying to perform a manual task.
I wouldn't go as far as to neglect someone elses experience because as with other disorders, people with ADHD can all be quite different. I understand you because for myself it absolutely affects my executive function and I've been diagnosed as a young child, pretty much coping ever since. Could I get a decent job and hold it down though? Yes, probably. Getting and staying in a job has many many more factors and making that part of the criteria only makes things more complicated.
This isn’t accurate. Holding down a job is not a criteria because people learn to compensate.
But those compensation mechanisms eventually stop working and I guarantee that persons life outside of their job is a complete dumpster fire.
This is not fair, there are definitely people who struggle with ADHD and do so with the belief they are lazy or internalise their issue as a problem that is due to personality or not being organised enough.
My psychotherapist said something along those same lines but it was in order to force me to answer the questionwhyis it aproblem.
For me, in my life, I have always "worked" during the day in an easily distractible state and without being able to commit effort to anything substantial or focus. I self-medicated with caffeine to get anything resembling focus and did all of myactualdaily tasks in a 3hr window when I got home and worked into the late evening. Usually with a massive sense of guilt about how I didn't reallydo anythingduring the day.
This was ADHD, I could not control when or how I focused. It gets worse with open office environments, but that's not the cause. I have an issue with executive function and delayed gratification. I do not have the ability fundamentally (even when motivated!) to task my brain with working.
But I can hold down a job and have done so for 16 years at this point and I am very successful in my career. That is not a good judge, you work around your issues if you have them- in my case I just don't have anything resembling a life outside of work in order to paper over my executive function disorders.
I don't know, I held down a decent job without meds before starting a family. I definitely have days where my executive functioning is as bad as you mention, but it varies. I've known many people with worse ADHD symptoms than I have, but I'm also not a marginal case. I'm also fortunate to have a rather high IQ.
It took me 11 semesters (plus two summer terms) to finish my undergrad with a low C grade average. Prior to kids, I would get to work between 7 and 8. If I was having trouble focusing that day, I'd leave between 4 and 5pm. If I was having a good day for focus, I'd stay as late as 10pm. Two "good days" in a week would put me at over 20 productive hours, which is a pretty solid foundation for being at least in the "not fired" category. If I didn't have two "good days," well that's what the weekends are for.
Reading the above, I think I understand why "burn out" is mentioned in TFA as something ADHD can lead to...
Well.
1. Self-diagnosis is not a diagnosis.
2. Things exist on a spectrum. The definition of it becoming a "disorder" is when it negatively affects your life enough.
During diagnosis a psychotherapist will be tasked with identifying traits of ADHD (IE; Markers), you will not have all markers. Everyone will have some.
Then those markers are investigated to discover how much they impact your quality of life. If it is above a certain threshold in aggregate then you are then diagnosed clinically as having "ADHD" and can be medicated.
What I mean is, for example: You can still have autism even if someone has significantly more severe autistic traits than you have.
Exactly. So so so many people do not understand this element of psychological disorders
Self-diagnosis is not a diagnosis.
Nit: Self-diagnosis is the first step towards a formal diagnosis. You don't go to the doctor to get antibiotics before self-diagnosing that you're sick.
That said, as useful as a formal diagnosis is (getting proper help, and even meds), don't skip it if you can afford to do it.
I assume that is how most people get through high-school and university? Intense focus on the couple days before finals / final projects. I too did that. Is that not the case or is that warning lights for ADHD?
High school you can get away with it because the course content is easier - college is much more challenging...
i did that all throughout university and graduated with honors in an engineering program. it really depends on your coping strategies / personality / luck / etc. i definitely have adhd, it just took a few boring jobs for it to blow up my life in any real way. (i completely burned out, turns out relying on adrenaline as an adhd medication is not a great long term coping strategy.) some people will hit that wall earlier or later than others.
once, i accidentally dragged a lab partner into doing work the way i did. we turned in the assignment with less than a minute on the clock, and he nearly had an anxiety attack (i was feeling pretty great about things)
Fair - I also graduated from an engineering program - though the intensity around finals was grueling. Somehow I think the 80-100% finals weighting might have made it that way.
Why does the boring job blow it up? Not enough stimulation?
IIUC, there are two main components to ADHD, and you can have one, the other or both. And all qualify as ADHD.
I'm likely ADHD, and the majority of my siblings have it. There's a night and day difference though between me, who in a questionnaire scored high on both, and me who scored high only in one[1].
[1] Well, borderline in one and not the other. Immediately after taking the questionnaire I attended a work meeting and realized that there were at least a half dozen questions that I answered optimistically through rose-tinted glasses.
With all that said, I'm working to address my sleep apnea before getting a diagnosis because I've heard that sleep deprivation can manifest similar to ADHD.
There's a good chance you do have ADHD. I was in a similar place to you, and it's important to know that it manifests differently in different people, and that there is a rebound effect when you stop your meds so what you might have seen may have been much worse than their unmedicated state. If you have the money I'd suggest just getting tested.
My wife has a copy of the DSM 5 on our bookshelf, and flipping through it I noted that very many disorders have diagnostic criteria that, beyond just having some symptoms, they cause significant distress or impairment of functioning.
I had a friend growing up who was diagnosed with ADHD quite young whose experience was similar to your story–he had major issues with school that ultimately led to him being expelled, not going to college, having trouble with work and family etc. I thought of him a lot as so many of my classmates in a hyper-competitive school environment discussed how they could get a diagnosis and medication to have an edge on college admissions or whatever.
There are degrees to everything, and the same psych disorder can manifest in very different ways in different people.
I have been diagnosed with generalised anxiety disorder. I "worry too much", in general, and have the odd panic attack or two per year. Some people have it bad enough they get these attacks daily.
That does not mean I don't have it or that it does not affect me, it just means it's mild in comparison to them, but my anxiety is still high compared to the average person when untreated. It does not have to be crippling to affect you.
Sourced fromhttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38162133
Self diagnoses (and diagnoses over the internet) are pretty harmful
Self-diagnoses can be legitimate or not - depends on the person doing them. They are often a necessity, in an environment where a professional diagnosis takes thousands of dollars or years in waiting (and is often done badly, by ill-informed professionals, like the many-decades prevailing myth that women/girls "can't be autistic", or that "ADD and autism can't coincide").
As (in this case) they are also based not on bloodwork or some physical indicators, but on a subjective assessment of a person's way of thinking, the person having the actual experience is often more qualified than the professional. Same to how you don't really need a doctor to tell you you're gay.
One might even argue that the labeling aspect of a certain disorder (particularly a mental one) by a "professional" to not be particularly helpful too in addressing ones problems
One might argue that the false dichotomy between professionals and laymen, where the former is supposed to hold all the keys to knowledge and the latter to passively consult and follow the advice of the former, is a problem in itself.
And a little outdated in modern societies where the "laymen" are not some mud dwelling peasants who never went to school and only know farm work, but univercity-educated (even over-educated) in their own right, and libraries are not confined to the rich or the scholars, but every book ever written is a click away.
In any case, a self-diagnosis doesn't give you the required paperwork to get drugs, or to get benefits, or specific accomondations, or anything like that. So it's not like it hurts society by taking resources from "legitimate" diagnoses.
Last, but not least, pointing that X symptoms is "quite common to ADD/ADHD" is not self-diagnosis, it's not even diagnosing. It's a suggestion hinting to a possible condition. It could very well be used for seeking a professional diagnosis.
Or do you think people with ADD/ADHD just go to the doctor to get diagnosed out of the blue, and not because of some similar suspicion, spotting some unexplained symptoms or themselves, or identification with some symptoms they've read about?
"Coping Mechanisms: Over the years, adults develop various coping strategies that can mask ADHD symptoms. For instance, someone might excessively rely on calendars, to-do lists, or alarms to compensate for forgetfulness."
You're goddamn right I do
do you find that todo lists help you?
I certainly agree with calendars/alarms but todo lists for me are a place to put things instead of doing them and then they become a separate problem all of their own
I find that for calendars and to do lists to work well, I need reminders to tell me to check the lists lol. Not great.
I made a kanban board of post-its on my bedroom mirror, that's hard enough to miss so that I automatically check them several times a day.
They help me. At least the physical, paper ones do.
I keep my days on track by taking time in the early morning and reviewing the previous days accomplishment/misses/notes and then writing down an outline of today's goals and reminders. Notes throughout the day get jotted in the margins. Something like maybe 70% blogging, 30% to-do list?
Can't say I've ever used an app that felt 1/8th as helpful. It feels like there's some extra brain magic going on in the process of putting thoughts on actual paper that results in more retention and effort of thought put into writing.
I used to think they didn't. It is entirely pointless and even something of a distraction if it's something that's currently part of my hyperfocus/obsession.
If it's something I might forget (e.g. an admin task), then if I don't put it in a list and have either a habit to pluck it out of the list or a reminder prompting me then it is usually forgotten.
I also rely very much more heavily on checklists (especially templated checklists) than the average person. If I'm traveling and I don't set a reminder for 7pm the night before a trip with a packing checklist then I will either forget 4 critical items or I will be frantically packing at the last minute or both.
For me the most important function of a todo list is to remind me what I am supposed to be doing _right now_. I often get distracted and veer off to do something else, but a quick glance at the top of my todo list gives me that little nudge to go back. Anything further down the todo list will possibly stay undone.
Todo lists help me deal with tasks not worth doing. I feel anxiety over forgetting things, even if they're ultimately not important - it can be hard to tell what's important in the moment.
Putting it in a todo list allows me to let go of the anxiety of forgetting, because I know I'll triage and prune my todo list soon enough.
Same for me. Todo lists don’t work for me at all
The only kind of todo list that does is a piece of physical paper with the items that I want to finish that day
That's a feature of todo lists I think. Well, perhaps not for ADHD per se, but it's a way also to offload and let go of things. At least that's what I remember the lifehack character on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy said.
Yeah, prioritizing tasks is also part of the problem for me. I use the TickTick app to save my tasks and it has a feature called the Eisenhower Matrix, which allows me to prioritize my tasks in a visual way like a kanban board. Sometimes that's not enough. Keeping to a schedule to form a habit is also a challenge, so I prepend a number to the most important tasks and set up reminders for them. Once I have the big tasks laid out in the app, I revert to old school pen and paper to break the tasks down into smaller parts because it's faster and reduces friction.
Maybe that sounds like overkill, but I've found that having a system for writing down tasks, prioritizing them, and creating a daily schedule/habit are all equally important for people with ADHD.
I mean the author in the article uses a to do list
In my case I have to say that is only half true. As an adult-diagnosed ADHD sufferer I cannot say that Idevelopedcoping strategies on which I relied excessively that masked my symptoms. Rather, Iused to try[0] to develop coping strategies, only for me to eventually drop them for unexplainable reasons at the slightest routine-messing incident or event, regardless of how effective the strategy was being or how good it felt. And then some time later I would [will] try again, under the blissful delusion that this time it will stick overriding the rational memory that I never succeed in setting up a system on which I can rely for the medium-to-long term. Rinse, wash, repeat.
I am now in a low, with no active strategy, and without the mental strength to start working on a new one. Hopefully though I will recover my mojo soon and organise myself again. And I'm surethis timeit will stick...
[0] I still try to develop coping strategies, but I used to too.
This is me. I stopped trying to be organized, because I know that as soon as there is some inconvenience or difficulty organizing, I will just get overwhelmed and drop everything I was trying to do. For example, I just cannot take notes or manage a calendar.
I got an e-ink notepad, which helped organize my thoughts better than the 10 different legal pads I would jump between. Still disorganized, but at least now my notes for a single topic are in one place.
For a calendar, my wife hung this acrylic calendar on the kitchen wall and we update it at the beginning of every month. I try to add things as they come up, and I often forget to add things if they are in future months, but it's helped for me to keep track of family arrangements. Any personal appointments I make on my own I try to put immediately into my google calendar, and then my work calendar is completely separate. As I'm typing this I realize I rely heavily on others to manage most of my time...
Which notepad?
Honestly no coping strategy worked until I got medicated. Then it all became so simple and easy to do.
this hits home with a caveat: Every time I try a new strategy, even if I drop it later, I end up a bit better than before. It's like with each try, my starting point for the next attempt is a little higher. Once I accepted that this is just how things work for me, I stopped feeling anxious about it too.
I do the same. And while it’s frustrating that nothing seems to stick long-term, I think it’s important to be trying. I’ll create a recurring to-do list of errands and I’ll stick to it for a week if I’m lucky. It feels bad when I find all those errands incomplete the following week when there’s a slight change in schedule, but at least those things got done the first week. And I pivot to a new strategy and try it all again.
The cycle stopped bothering me so much when I realized that’s what it is: a cycle. It ebbs and flows with my energy levels. And frankly part of why I can’t keep it up is probably because I’m putting too much demand on myself. If I need to take a break, I guess that’s just what needs to happen. I’ll probably pick up a more productive routine again next week.
I've recently been wondering if maybe I'm overcrowding myself in this way. I mean I definitely am, but I'm starting to wonder if there are any other options besides burning through tasks whenever I get a good day.
I don't think I've had an empty task list in my entire professional career outside of changing jobs and effectively declaring task bankruptcy. Todoist's end of day notification often says something like "review the 54 tasks remaining for the day".. One day someone will figure out a system that works for every ADHDer in the modern world and we'll have a new tech/space/etc renaissance, haha
Incidentally I saw this meme on Twitter while procrastinating something or other earlier, quite apthttps://img.imgy.org/1xkR.jpg
Best of luck to you, me, everyone else struggling with this one!
Oh God this sounds so much like my autobiography :(
That's me too (except I was diagnosed as a kid). Only thing that has worked reliably with me is Dexmethylphenidate, but it messes with my sleep, so I get to choose between my brain feeling like mush in the morning or playing the focus-lottery for the rest of the day.
P.S. Nice Mitch Hedberg reference
Severe adhd here. The book “tiny habits” has been life changing for me. It hasn’t solved all my problems but it’s made a massive difference
For instance, someone might excessively rely on calendars, to-do lists, or alarms to compensate for forgetfulness."
Holy objects. Can't survive with any of these things.
I have 2 calendars running (it's actually only one, but I have Outlook mobile installed, plus Apple Calendar- they sync to the same calendar , I get two separate notifications for everything so I can't just dismiss them as easily).
I don't see why any of that would be excessive or exclusive to people with ADHD. Neurotypical people forget important stuff all the time and would also benefit from good organizational skills and reminders about important deadlines.
I recently started talking to a therapist again after several years not, this time focusing on ADHD. I never realized until now the sheer number of little tweaks I've integrated into my thinking and behavior, nor the degree to which I've optimized them all for maximum likelihood of actually getting stuff done. No one approach works consistently, but every now and then I get lucky and one does, and that's a real improvement over not doing them.
I swear that every time I read an article by somebody who claims they've been diagnosed with ADHD, it is the same formula: "when I was a child...", "I didn't know what it was", ..., "I was finally diagnosed with ADHD", then finally "I have super powers no one else has so I will use them to my advantage".
I would love to see an ADHD version of the horoscope/personality tests administered by Stagner and Forer. I predict the effect would be the same. This study seems to be on this track:https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07067437221082...
I have been personally diagnosed with ADHD and have benefited from medication but it doesn't come without its costs. My wife was diagnosed when she was very young and we've had a lot of time to run self experiments and discuss ideas.
I don't think people want to hear this but I believe so many people think they have ADHD because of a lack of discipline. Even people with ADHD will understand what I'm talking about. Some days you can take your medication and still get nothing done with endless distractions.
We live in a world full of distractions and our attention spans are being whittled down with every new dopamine slot machine on our phones. What's rare today is someone stopping themselves from reaching for the digital crack and embracing the less stimulating but more rewarding long term goal slog. Treating every focus problem you have as a medical issue or a fleeting lack of motivation gives you an easier out. What you really need to accept is that sometimes you just avoid discomfort and the only thing missing is forcing yourself to get shit done and being content with it.
Yep, I know a lot of people who have the most horrible lifestyles who claim to have ADHD. I had previously been entirely useless in my life and claimed to be depressed. As soon as I made an effort to be happy and implement healthy coping mechanisms I quickly became a much more functional human being. I have found myself recently wondering if I have ADHD a lot. I'm starting to realise this may be the same thing and I do need to have some self discipline. I am pre-disposed to being disorganised, terrible at dealing with time and very contrary in the face of things I don't want to do. However, I'm pretty sure these are things I can sorta improve on and are not so tied to my brain chemistry that I must yield to them. Recently I had a gf who was hypersensitive to all noise, practically unable to sleep, extremely hyperactive, addictive tendencies, impulsive to a ridiculous level, terrible relationship to food, always talking too much or too little to hold a conversation as expected, worse concept of time than me, constantly living in an extreme level of chaos. She was recently diagnosed ADHD and nothing has ever been less surprising to me in my life. That gave me a good insight about what is the difference between me being pretty disorganised and always feeling like it's hard to start doing things, and what being ADHD looks like. Mainly, I do not have all these other neurodivergent tendencies like hypersensitivity. So hopefully I will be able to continue working towards functioning as a normal adult although I do find it sorta challenging. I am investigating physical medical reasons for my difficulty focusing and still looking to see if I can get assessed though, just to rule anything out. But I think I can do a lot more with my behaviour than I think.
As soon as I made an effort to be happy and implement healthy coping mechanisms
Whataresome of the "healthy coping mechanisms"? Other than "diet and exercise" panacea nonsense?
Erm a lot of things. Diet and exercise are literally key. Diet less so, I can be depressed with a great diet. But with adequate sun exposure and exercise it's pretty hard to be super depressed unless you have a serious chemical imbalance. (edit: I also think having goals in your exercise that you actually care about somewhat helps).
I go outside and stare at the sun every morning for like 5 mins (this is so key I can't even overstate it). I take a cold shower after that (proven to increase your baseline dopamine). I exercise almost every day. I try to never spend a whole day in my house unless I'm sick, preferably spending the majority of the day outside my house. I try to get 8 hours of sleep at least 5 out of 7 days a week, by which I mean 9 hours in bed with the lights off. Being in bed 8 hours isn't sufficient. All this makes me feel awake and sorta alive.
I keep a journal where I set myself goals for the day and I reflect on my performance and my state of mind at the end of the day. Sorta a bullet journal deal with a bit more feels but in a practical way. It's for monitoring and encouraging iterative improvement and for analysing and mitigating negative thought patterns. This allows me to keep myself accountable but also just cope when I'm literally crying in the evening for no reason. It's like my emotional support book.
I was having trouble with caring about anything I usually would. I just started trying to act like I cared. Like acting curious, being highly engaged. And it sort of leads to you naturally being more interested after a while.
I try to create social interaction for myself every week even if no-one invites me to do anything.
I have Freedom app on my phone blocking most stuff for the first 5 hours and last 1 hour of the day. I also don't listen to music or podcasts in the morning. This leaves my brain feeling less sluggish and helpless.
I sign up for really random stuff sometimes just to make my life interesting.
Lastly, I do a lot of deep breathing when I'm trying to get things done because I tend to get anxiety about literally any task.
Edit: I don't know why I need so much going on to make myself function like a normal person. But it works a lot better than not doing this because otherwise I literally curl up into a ball, give up on life and get fired from jobs.
Diet and exercise! I mean it helps but the commenter probably means stopping with social media and passive distractions.
The good thing is that while getting started sucks, if you're consistent with it you can train your mind to seek out and crave long term goal progress and completion in the same way you can train your body.
Just don't forget to be in the present.
if you're consistent with it you can train your mind to seek out and crave long term goal progress and completion in the same way you can train your body.
How? I mean, one of my major symptoms is that I can't for life do either! "Training my body" doesn't feel like something natural or within range of possibility.
Yeah, I found it close to the annoying "you could try not to have issues... harder". I'm glad some people find they can actually change their behaviours. But it's more of a "if you /CAN BE/ consistent with it" issue for others.
"Life is suffering". Better to accept it. There is joy in life but what you are present for even without training your mind is suffering. It's way easier to recognize and remember than joy.
What do you mean by "natural or within range of possibility"?
One is consistent by doing, not by feeling (of course feelings have their own place in life). I don't enjoy going to the gym per se. I let go of that and go. I don't go because I feel happy and motivated before exercise. First, I went because people for thousands of years have saying so, and biologically it makes sense. Then, because I know how I feel in the short and long term after the exercise.
I do different sports for enjoyment and different for keeping in shape of course. I love hiking but going to a gym is more sustainable as a regular way of keeping in shape in all seasons and weather.
For a while there I thought I had ADHD, and started looking for avenues to get diagnosed. But when I talked more with some friends who have serious cases of it, I started to doubt. Instead of going for the medication, I removed distracting apps from my phone and logged out of socials. It took a few weeks to settle into the routine, but now my focus/attention problems are all but gone. Go figure!
I have diagnosed ADHD and I do not have social media (besides HN), distracting apps or anything. I just have stock GrapheneOS on my phone, no extra distractions. This helps tremendously but doesn't really affect the core issues of adhd, which are a lack of focus when that is needed. Note that it's not a general lack of focus and not a lack of discipline. People with ADHD often fall into depressionbecausethey cannot focus well enough even with the right discipline and motivation.
Exactly. I came to the conclusion that for me it was an environment/discipline issue because (among other things) my severe-ADHD friends would try the same tactics with 0 effect. If I can manage attention issues with lifestyle changes alone, it’s probably not a brain chemistry problem.
I do think it’s a testament though to how brain-rotting the always-on socials/apps/notifications can be. They messed me up so bad I literally thought I had a medical condition! Yikes.
I dislike this post because medication is only a (meaningfully large part) of managing adhd. It’s not a magic pill that solves it and if the patient doesn’t have a holistic approach that includes mindfulness, exercise, diet, managing other mental health issues, and structure - then they’re still likely to fail.
I’d encourage you to read more about adhd because a huge symptom of it is lack of long term perspective in decision making. It’s like one of the defining characteristics. Trying to dismiss that as someone being lazy or undisciplined is a damaging stereotype to spread. It’s the equivalent of telling someone with depression to snap out of it or get some sunshine
I think you missed my point. I'm mostly talking about the litany of people on social media that believe they have ADHD without brain scans or any formal diagnosis.
Almost everyone suffers from some lack of discipline and some mistake it for being neurodivergent. People with ADHD can also lack it. Your point of taking a holistic approach is correct and I wasn't trying to single out medication. People with ADHD don't get a free pass on building discipline. In fact, to your point they require more of it to overcome their struggles. Medication, mindfulness, exercise, diet, and structure all take a lot of effort and consistency. It requires you to be more disciplined.
Not really. ADHD is well documented in brain scans that show a lack of activation and structural differences. You can actually see the difference between the brain of a person with ADHD and a control. It's not just 'having weak discipline' and 'not trying hard enough.' It would be like looking at someone with no arms and saying 'I believe that this person can pick up a ball but they just lack the discipline.' Nope, the structural basis to make that happen is absent. That's ADHD.
I found an article written... a while ago now which describes the issue already, having the internet under your fingers and endless short form distractions:https://randsinrepose.com/archives/nadd/.
My mother first helped diagnose me with NADD. It was the late 1980s and she was bringing me dinner in my bedroom (nerd). I was merrily typing away to my friends in some primitive chat room on my IBM XT (super nerd), listening to music (probably Flock of Seagulls—nerd++), and watching Back to the Future with the sound off (nerrrrrrrrrrd). She commented, “How can you focus on anything with all this stuff going on?” I responded, “Mom, I can’t focus without all this noise.”
I'm confused btw; the date on the page mentions it was written in 2003, but the article mentions Slack which didn't exist until 2013, unless the article's been kept updated over the years.
edit: It has been, that's a cute time box; the 2004 archived versionhttps://web.archive.org/web/20140214120052/http://randsinrep...has the following:
Me, I’ve got a terminal session open to a chat room, I’m listening to music, I’ve got Safari open with three tabs open where I’m watching Blogshares, tinkering with a web site, and looking at weekend movie returns. Not done yet. I’ve got iChat open, ESPN.COM is downloading sports new trailers in the background, and I’ve got two notepads open where I’m capturing random thoughts for later integration into various to do lists. Oh yeah, I’m writing this column, as well.
the current version:
Me, I’ve got Slack opened and logged into four different teams, I’m listening to music in Spotify, I’ve got Chrome open with three tabs where I’m watching stocks on E*TRADE, I’m tinkering with WordPress, and I’m looking at weekend movie returns. Not done yet. I’ve got iMessage open, Tweetbot is merrily streaming the latest fortune cookies from friends, and I’ve got two Sublime windows open where I’m capturing random thoughts for later integration into various to-do lists. Oh yeah, I’m rewriting this article as well.
I believe so many people think they have ADHD because of a lack of discipline
A fundamental characteristic of my ADHDislack of discipline. I cannot force myself to do something if ADHD is getting in the way. On the rare occasions it's not, and I have initiative (a truly precious resource), it doesn't matter how much or little I enjoy the task, or how uncomfortable the task is, it's getting done.
As I'm sure you know, ADHD diagnosis, like many other diagnoses, needs two things: 1. Have at least N of M symptoms on a list. 2. Have those things have a material negative impact on your life.
the only thing missing is forcing yourself to get shit done
...yes? Obviously?
As far as I understand it, that's the whole point. People who don't have ADHD just don't struggle with that to the point that it shapes their life, it's just an occasional annoyance that doesn't require any special effort to deal with.
I read a book once decades ago about ADHD, and it said lots of children are misdiagnosed with it. One of the very common causes is that kids who don't eat regularly (or eat sugar then crash) will encounter low blood sugar. The body reacts to this by dumping adrenaline in the bloodstream and ... voila ... an excitable kid with little focus.
Between decades ago and now we've recognized that sugar only causes excitableness in children who are prompted (Clever Hans style) by adults who expect such an outcome.
The wisdom you're referencing is circa the 70's, it's been attempted many times since and has never replicated.
The comment you're replying to doesn't seem to mention the debunked "sugar rush". The "crash" on the other hand seems to be more replicable.
Also your framing ignores that the "prompting" can be circumstantial rather than targeted. The "rush" is frequently misattributed to sugar when it can actually be better explained by the food itself being a rare treat (and thus exciting) or the situation in which it is provided being special (e.g. a party). Or it can simply be the joy of eating something very tasty.
It's less Clever Hans and more "kids are more prone to sudden outbursts of strong emotions and adults blame it on food".
It's both under- and over-diagnosed because the funnel for children is teachers who have basically been trained to refer the "problem children" for diagnosis.
I have a son who has extreme anxiety, and kept getting referred by teachers for ADHD. Hyper-vigilance for danger can make it hard to focus on arithmetic, particularly in an elementary school classroom. The psychiatrist ended up putting a note in his file because this was happening.
Meanwhile, I also have a daughter who is so obviously ADHD: she forgets to turn in her homework; there were 6 of her jackets in the lost and found in October; she will go to school without her eyeglasses; &c. But, she doesn't disrupt the classroom and is otherwise seen as a "good kid" so she was never referred by a teacher.
I personally don't believe in any "superpowers". Its just adversity you face, nothing good about it. I'd rather not have it obviously. But maybe my experience is different became I later also got diagnose with having Aspergers.
I got diagnosed with ADHD a couple years ago, and it has remained a shit show since then. It was a shit show before, but now medical appointments and crazy restricted medicines have been added to the mix (I ran out of an addictive antidepressant this weekend, not fun). It feels like everybody agrees I'm sick but nobody has an effective treatment for me. I went to see all the doctors who accepted to see me (it's not that many, the appointment system is made to fend of patients, not help you see a doctor), nobody had any magical insight. I lost the best job of my life because of my inability to stay on track.
I don't find this hyperfocus to be unique and became quite resentful when diagnosed later in life by a therapist + psychiatrist. In my case, I was confused as to why I was always underperforming and needed to work extra hours to catch up with my peers, for example. It is not lazyness, when alone I’m a dialed down version of Martin Lorentzon (reference here from the Spotify docuseries)
As a child, I had nicknames related to "crazy." Today, the one thing I take pride in related to ADHD is my ability to think outside the box.
What is everyone’s experience getting officially diagnosed and treated? I match up pretty closely with textbook symptoms and all of the free online “tests” indicate I should get treated for it… but how? I’ve found places that offer an ADHD screening at the tune of multiple thousands, not in network with any insurance, but those places don’t also treat it. I’m more interested in pharmacological treatments rather than typical therapy (after over 40 years, I’ve developed coping mechanisms like the author), but it’s hard to choose what type of doctor is best here. What experiences does everyone here have?
Not me, but my BFF managed to get diagnosed in her mid-30s. She was killing her heart with all the stimulants she was taking and her other ways to cope. I don't k own hoe she got diagnosed, but she definitely didn't do it for thousands of dollars. She couldn't have afforded that.
I do know that therapy and medication made it night and day for her. She immediately dropped all caffeine. Her sleep and general mood was so much better and she wad way less flakey. She doesn't dismiss therapy although I know she hasn't gone every week for a while not and mostly goes when she's feeling like she needs it. Medication was a trip and error, but she's much happier with this steady state.
I am confused by this post. Aren't stimulants the most common medication prescribed for ADHD?
Yes, but they also can have side effects, some worse than dealing with ADHD. There are various non-stimulants like Atomoxetine which are also approved for ADHD and work for some that can't use the stimulants safely.
Coffee is the wrong kind of stimulant, it is a band aid. It is like eating sugar to try to dampen cravings for protein, causes you to overeat sugar.
you will need to tell us your location; it will vary greatly across the world.
In the UK, for me, diagnosis wasn't too hard via BUPA - my phsychiatrist seeing me for my other mental health problems recommended me and it was relatively quick to get an ADHD diagnosis; now, however, I am stuck - there's a UK shorage of medication so my psychiatrist is unwilling to proscribe for a new patient whilst existing ones aren't getting what they need. Until that gets unblocked I'm in limbo; additionally BUPA do not cover any ADHD costs (except the diagnosis) - after that you're on your own and you either need to self-fund or go via the NHS; the NHS won't "just" prescibe; for me they want that to come from the psychiatrist and they'll then pick up the medication part of it - but see above about BUPA not funding ADHD costs.
If you go NHS all the way then you'll be on long waiting lists and, presumably, some sort of post-code lottery as to your experience.
I'm willing to self-fund to get to the point where the NHS will take over (and apparently that's a dice-roll too; my GP says he will prescribe once the shrink gets me on a stable dose, but not before - apparently some GPs refuse and require that you go via the NHS for everything, so you're on long waiting lists again); but am currently unable to progress due to the shortage of medication, as mentioned. I am also expecting relatively large bills as I will need to self fund both the psychiatrist and the initial medication prior to the NHS picking it up.
Anecdotally (reading ADHD forums on reddit) experiences in the US sound much more random.
I'm in the same boat.
Expect to pay between £700 - £1500 (initial consultation, titration fees). Then the ongoing medication costs.
Honestly I am torn on this issue, I don't think we should have a nation filled with amphetamine users, but right now I'm a self funded founder and I can't justify this cost. So I have no choice but to self medicate with medication I have procured myself through alternative means...
The whole thing feels scammy in the UK
The other option is "Right To Choose" through the NHS - you ask for a referral by your GP to a private ADHD specialist.
The NHS ADHD waiting list in my region was over 6 years but using RTC, I was diagnosed in around 6 months with no extra cost and prescriptions costing the NHS standard. Places like ADHD360 and PsychiatryUK focus on high throughput / low cost so the amount of time and qualifications of the practitioners won't match hand-picking a private psychologist but you can't argue with the cost.
I am surprised you are having any problem getting diagnosed. ADHD is one of the easiest conditions to fake:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3173757/
OP didn't report trouble getting someone to believe they have ADHD, they reported indecision and difficulty identifying someone who offers treatment and arranging an appointment.
As someone who did get diagnosed: It took me _five_ attempts to get all the way to an appointment with a psychiatrist (inability to find a suitable psychiatrist, lost referrals, missed appointments etc). Navigating the medical establishment with untreated ADHD is hell. Now I've got treatment for it, I could do it easily, but it's really hard to overstate just how non-functional you can end up.
Because the symptoms are easily faked, I needed a significant range of retrospective evidence - quotes from school report cards, interviews with my parents - which I had to arrange prior to assessment. If I hadn't been able to produce those, I likely would not have been able to get treatment.
Hard to say without some idea where you are, but it was not hard for me. It did cost me a few hundred $ overall, but the process was fairly simple. It did take a few months to get a spot for a remote appointment (if I lived in the city it would be faster in person) And I just knew the clinic knew who they're dealing with (reminder sent a week and a day before, reminder sent about payment, reminder about a followup, etc.) Maybe try finding some group which may have experience / specific contacts in the area? There's bound to be a country/state-specific group online where you can ask.
If you're in the US, talk to your GP, family Dr or w/e. They can prescribe but they cannot diagnose. They'll refer you to someone. You probably want to be referred to a counselor rather than a psychologist.
You should _really_ consider therapy in addition to any medication. The meds will be amazing for a month and then useful for a year. After that you're going to have to make a decision about how you want to continue treatment. Keep bumping the dose and adjust to the side effects or 'typical therapy'. By then, that therapy is going to be much harder to apply to your life than it would have been in the first few months when you started the meds.
I got diagnosed and then got medication. Ritalin/medikinet is the default here.
It felt like a really strong coffee. It did not really help as I could just focus intensely on the wrong things for hours then crash. The comedown was not fun. The side effects were not fun. The benefits were questionable.
Above all, my lifestyle is built around ADHD. My work is structured to accomodate my quirks. I was happier riding the waves as there were almost no consequences for doing so.
Perhaps another type of medication would have worked better, but no medication at all is good enough.
One thing I appreciated is that they titrated the medication safely. I hear that American doctors start people with a much stronger dose. German doctors seem more moderate, and more willing to try therapy first.
Your mileage may vary.
If you live in the US - go to Zoom care - talk to a doctor, fill out a survey - walk out with a prescription. I don’t use medication anymore but when I first discovered it, it changed my life for a time - and in the US it is incredibly easy to get prescribed from my experience.
Every now and again a certain disorder becomes more culturally prominent and psychiatrists get a wave of patients interested in being screened. The unfortunate part is this is what's happening with ADHD at the moment. Mostly outside of America it was always hard to get a diagnosis because ADHD is treated by 'drugs of abuse' (which really sketches doctors out.) It's a very common experience for people to try get a diagnosis only to have a doctor that either believes ADHD is BS or that the patient is just after getting high. But now there's a new stigma too: doctors who believe the condition is being massively over-diagnosed.
I think in America you should still be able to get access to meds fast. But trying to chase local doctors means all the slowness that comes from a local economy (you really want an ADHD specialist because of stigma.) I would be trying to find telehealth options if they're there. I do agree with you about the behavioral approaches. The best option IMO is pharmaceutical. Stimulants are ~70-80% effective for people with ADHD.
Self reporting for adhd tests is notoriously unreliable to the point of being useless. It requires interviewing people close to the patient.
Extremely relatable. Hyperfocus... I can easily spend over twenty hours focusing on something once I get in the zone, but it's extremely difficult to open the editor and start programming. Coping mechanisms and adaptative behaviors are all good and all but the power of lisdexamfetamine cannot be underestimated.
Lisdexamphetamine is a big help, but the side effects can be devastating. Of course every person is different, but for me this reduced my sleep quality significantly. I can no longer take any of these meds if I want a good restful night of sleep. When I was younger it was no problem though.
It took me a long time to dial in my vyvanse prescription so it wasn't impacting my sleep, plus not taking it on the weekends.
Stress in all its forms also turned out to be a critical factor in sleeping well, too. Simply taking on fewer responsibilities (which I attribute in part to my particular ADHD) helped a lot there.
I can plus one this. I thought it was the stimulant dosage in the afternoon that was keeping me up all night, but it turns out to be stress! Once that is relieved, things go back to normal.
I don’t have any issues with sleep and this medication, but I take it pretty early (usually 5:30/6). It is well over by bedtime.
It only really became a problem after about 10 years of being medicated for adhd. However taking it early as well as physical exhaustion does help.
I don't take it myself either. I've always been afraid of the cardiovascular risks associated with stimulants. I've seen recent research suggesting it doesn't increase risk but still.
The medicine completely cured me though.
That's interesting, I found it actually helps with my sleep. As it wears off (around the end of the work day) I feel pretty tired. Plus I no longer need to drink coffee to get through the day, so I think the lack of caffeine helps too.
I just want to offer an alternative perspective because I think it’s important not to discourage people who might be put off trying meds because of the potential downside. Once I had the dosage, and importantly a second dose at mid day dialed in, my sleep actually improved. My sleep problems were caused by adhd, so having it be treated as I was winding down for the night was a huge improvement in my ability to sleep.
At least one study found no relationship between hyperfocus and ADHD.https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S089142222...
For reference:
Highlights
• We could not demonstrate a higher frequency of hyperfocus in adults with ADHD relative to healthy controls.
• Hyperfocus is experienced both by healthy and ADHD adults although it correlates positively with ADHD traits.
• Age and educational level are important determinants of hyperfocus.
• Motivational, situational and clinical aspects of hyperfocus need to be taken into account in future studies.
Coping mechanisms also help with getting started. Mine are history podcasts and stimulating YouTube videos in the background.
I've been in the diagnostic process for ADHD twice. First time I ended up losing all the paperwork, and getting kicked out of it. In the time between the first and second attempt, I developed PTSD which essentially stalled the second diagnostic as they could not cleanly differentiate between the two. For some reason, getting a diagnosis has been nearly impossible for me, despite each diagnostician saying "ADHD is highly likely", and the PTSD was a downstream effect of untreated ADHD.
I'm curious of any other developers have found effective, non-medication based ways to manage this.
The fact you lost the paperwork should be a pretty damn good indicator and this part made me laugh out loud. I'm glad to have been simply diagnosed by someone who just accepted my story as true. All this talk about diagnosis is just bizarre. It's not a 0-1 sort of thing, they have to trust you. Unfortunately you have to be confident and assertive because they will gas-light you in the name of being 'careful'.
Sports can be an important piece of the puzzle in the ADHD lifestyle. Especially high-intensity, game-like, engaging ones that you can identify with and be good at. I swear my executive self-control and discipline have improved since I started training tennis several years ago.
Now do remembering to fill your medicine when you're off your medicine :) you need extreme executive loading to argue with insurance and RXs especially with the supply chain issues.
It always bothers me how the procedure for getting ADHD meds is the single most ADHD unfriendly procedure in existence.
I feel incredibly lucky that my parents got me evaluated for ADHD and Autism when I was still a minor. It's much much harder as an adult. There is a lot of stigmatization and also this thought of "oh you got through school, oh you got this far" for adults with ADHD.
I used to take medication and it helped me a lot. Now however I have come off of them completely. The side effects can be devastating. In my case, I developed strong insomnia as amphetamines are much stronger than caffeine. Sleeplessness over a longer period can be very mentally deteriorating.
The advice I can give is to actively seek interaction with others suffering from the same, actively accept and ask for all accommodations and help, give yourself enough time for what you need to do and don't compare your experience to the neurotypical one. It is different and it's a matter of coping and accepting oneself and ones disadvantages as a normal part of life.
Another thing I often say to people in my therapy group is that they should also be politically proactive about their condition. Things like healthcare covered medication, ensured accommodations etc and the fight against stigmatization are political by nature.
The advice I can give is to actively seek interaction with others suffering from the same, actively accept and ask for all accommodations and help, give yourself enough time for what you need to do and don't compare your experience to the neurotypical one. It is different and it's a matter of coping and accepting oneself and ones disadvantages as a normal part of life.
This has been my approach at this point. I've had to accept that I will likely never get medication, or even a proper diagnosis. My family actively fought every teacher who suggested I had ADHD, and there were several. Very honestly, the only reason I have sought diagnosis is to get accommodation which would let me work within the focus patterns ADHD causes.
My closest friend has ADHD, and my partner is in the process of getting an ASD diagnosis. The majority of my time is spent around neuroodivergent types.
Simply having people around you who share your experience is incredibly helpful, since you can talk to them freely and be understood. I've given up trying to discuss the experience with people who are NT simply because the understanding that the challenges I face are not just inconvenient just isn't there.
If you want to take one more shot at it, try any online pill mill, the diagnostic process is much easier post-covid and may be as simple as a brief in-person interview with a non-MD practitioner.
You still need cognitive behavioral therapy. Stimulants are a blunt instrument.
How does your PTSD present?
Have you tried meditation and breathing exercises?
Yes to both. I also wear an Apple Watch with the main display being a heart rate graph to monitor my stress levels over the day. I tend to average a resting rate of 100 bpm during periods of higher stress, and between 60-70 in periods of lower stress. Longer periods of high BPM indicates that I need to take a break.
The PTSD presents mostly in incredibly severe trust issues, periodic nightmares related to events, depersonalization, sleep problems, and paranoia. I also have an absurdly overblown startle response that looks more like a panic attack than someone being jump-startled. If I'm startled "badly enough", it triggers a panic attack. "Badly enough" can simply be someone tapping me on the shoulder when I didn't notice them coming up behind me.
Do you also have an aversion to paperwork? Seems to be "a thing". Paperwork has paralysed me ever since I've been in high school. Have gotten in trouble and paid fines over procrastinating paperwork over my whole life.
I am also on the "Highly Likely", and currently on the waitlist for a clinic. The best thing I did was being open and honest with my partner, as my ADD behaviors would sometimes exasperate her. I did the same with my manager at work, and it can usually get you some degree of accommodation which can help you cope.
I suffer for the 3-for-1 Triple A special: Autism, Anxiety and ADD. Seems to be a fairly common combination. Physical exercise helps greatly with anxiety, and helps to some degree to ADD as it does generate a certain sense of "reward" in my brain.
meditation
One key identifier not mentioned in the article is that ADHD, as well as manically depressed, people typically produce extremely low levels of serotonin. It is common for ADHD people to compensate with stimulants like caffeine and sugar.
Many people crave minor stimulants in the afternoon or early morning when serotonin levels dip in the day. People chronically low on serotonin however will crave these all day long in extreme volumes in what looks like drug addiction seeking behavior. The result of such stimulant over consumption produces behaviors that appear like rapid bipolar disorders.
This does not apply to all people with ADHD, but when you see the behavior in people close to you it’s probably a good idea to have them tested.
My biggest learning about ADHD is that it’s not primarily about focus, but irregularities with task completion/transition deficiencies.
It's dopamine that ADHD lack and that you get from caffeine and sugar, not serotonin. People who are depressed do lack serotonin though yes. And you can have both. You can't get that from caffeine though.
No, it’s absolutely only about low serotonin. Dopamine spikes do directly result from sugar spikes, but that is the effect and not the cause.
I'm honestly interested in hearing the research on this
Do either of you have sources?
I really dislike the neurotransmitter discussions because they do not differentiate between "free" or "in-transit" neurotransmitter levels vs. "stored" or "awaiting dispatch" neurotransmitter levels vs. "receptor sites" or "available destinations" for neurotransmitters vs. "receptor activation effect" or "destination's response on delivery." That doesn't even get into the complexity of different types of receptor sites or their roles in all the different bodily systems and organs. It leads for utterly confounding conversations without strictly delineating what everyone knows and/or assumes about the topic at hand.
So, here is my quick and slipshod armchair theorizing: serum serotonin levels may be a predictor of ADHD due serotonin's role in activating certain autoreceptors that mediate dopamine release.
Does serotonin deficit mediate susceptibility to ADHD?:https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01970...
Is there an Effect of Serotonin on Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder?:https://repository.unair.ac.id/106894/1/Is%20There%20an%20Ef...
Can we all just agree though that coffee and sugar are dopamine not serotonin obviously? Like you don't get less depressed from drinking coffee.
No. It over simplifies what is happening to the point of drawing false correlations. Low serotonin production is strongly linked with low dopamine production but the reverse is less clear. More direct to this conversation sugar and caffeine consumption addresses low dopamine directly, but this coping behavior seeks to address the results of low serotonin, not dopamine. People with low dopamine but regular serotonin also benefit equally from high sugar and caffeine intake, but are substantially less prone to seek sugar and caffeine for that purpose. In the end its about correcting for mood stimulus not task reward stimulus.
As with many behavior impairing/enhancing substances, there are effects on multiple neurotransmitters:
Caffeine activates noradrenaline neurons and seems to affect the local release of dopamine. Many of the alerting effects of caffeine may be related to the action of the methylxanthine on serotonin neurons. [1]
Or take alcohol, which people typically associate only with GABA:
Among the neurotransmitter systems linked to the reinforcing effects of alcohol are dopamine, endogenous opiates (i.e., morphinelike neurotransmitters), GABA, serotonin, and glutamate acting at the NMDA receptor (Koob 1996).
Two other things, first the notion that depression can be reduced down to a deficiency of neurotransmitters is almost certainly an oversimplification (if not outright incorrect). What we have is correlation, not causation, where GABA, stress hormones, and other mechanisms also show up. Second, even if this characterization of "low on neurotransmitters => depression" is correct, it is not and has never been just about serotonin:
The monoamine-deficiency theory posits that the underlying pathophysiological basis of depression is a depletion of the neurotransmitters serotonin, norepinephrineor dopaminein the central nervous system. [2]
1) Serotonin reception explained -https://balancewomenshealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/T...
2) Serotonin and ADHD -https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25684070/
3) Dopamine cycle explained in context of ADHD -https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2626918/
4) ADHD and sugar explained -https://www.verywellmind.com/the-sugar-and-adhd-relationship...
5) ADHD and sugar study -https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3133757/
That last one mentioned coloring agents multiple times. Different research has show artificial colors, as derived from petro-chemical processing like reds and yellows, are strongly linked with neurotransmitter disruption in all people, but the effect is an order of magnitude more significant in high risk children.
Huh heard this before about caffeine but not sugar, that might explain why I'm an absolute sugar fiend. I'm just very lucky that my blood sugar isn't through the roof somehow.
I read that whole thing and didn’t read one word about nutrition?
I’ve come along way to understanding the nutritional metabolic pathways that may increase the symptoms of ADHD.
Pyridoxine, or B6, is the most studied nutritional factor when it comes to reducing ADHD symptoms. I’m not saying this is the only cause of ADHD, but if this works other things might work as well. Zinc is a good possibility on the list also.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/
According to our data, multi-year pyridoxine treatment normalizes completely the pattern of ADHD behavior, without causing any serious side effects.
https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1016/j.mehy.2013.11.018
While it discusses multi-year treatment, the paper says "After several weeks of such treatment the pattern of behavior in ADHD patients is normalized." which feels like something that could be easily tried out. Since it was published in 2013 I'd expectsomefollow-up? (checking for citations now)
Edit: Sadly, "No Tryptophan, Tyrosine and Phenylalanine Abnormalities in Children with Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder"https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4777504/2016, larger study. (although they measure the amounts rather than ratios, so not exactly the same idea)
Nutritional studies are hard to get funding for in the first place, never mind the follow-ups.
They found nothing in the study, because IMI they were measuring the wrong neurotransmitters. Dopamine is not the cause of the symptoms. It has to do with glutamate and GABA Balance. Since stimulants can control effect glutamate and GABA as well as Dopamine , that’s why there is all the confusion.
B6 also plays a role in glutamate GABA balance through stimulating the glutamate dehydrogenase enzyme.
It looks like you have a whole stash of related papers. If you could send all those links, I'd really appreciate it.
They all stashed my brain after years of researching nutritional psychiatry.
As far as ADHD goes, I just suggest searching both PubMed and Google scholar for ADHD, glutamate and GABA.
I think glutamate and GABA play a larger, or fundenental role, in most psychiatric disorders.
May be a part of why so many people with psychiatric disorders (especially undiagnosed or untreated) often use nicotine and/or alcohol to cope. They both interact heavily with the GABAergic system. Alcohol also inhibits the activity of glutamate and reduces extracellular levels in certain brain regions. Too much glutamate in the brain can cause 'failure of different neurotransmission systems' and is neurotoxic.
It's too bad self-medicating with these substances comes with such awful downsides.
Ethanol is my go to medication. It’s the only calcium, sodium, and potassium ion channel blocker that can enter the brain. These are implicated in bipolar disorder which I have. The trick is to not abuse it just like any other medication.
I also have labile hypertension and it’s the only medication I can take that controls my blood pressure spikes.
I feel the same way about nicotine, although I can’t take it because it turns me to up. Nicotine is a stimulant and can be used as a medicine in lower doses. The problem is that people used to do and that sets up the addiction cycle.
I definitely have an issue with a very high glutamate/GABA ratio. My other go to medicine is Klonopin which I use only when I’m in a severe crisis. Like when I had a delusional psychosis when I had Covid.
Hi, author here,
Nutrition is very important indeed, but it has always been a problem for me. I wanted to focus on things I tried and worked on me. Of course, it's not perfect, but at least the points I listed made the things better for me. Everybody's different, so it's not a silver bullet, just my personal journey.
Can you explain more about how nutrition is an issue for you?
Would you ever consider getting your serum B6 levels tested? It’s pretty cheap and you can do it without a doctors prescription if you’re in in the United States.
or smartphone use, which is correlated with emotional dysregulation.
This again? A blog post stuffed with stolen art and often heard but absolutely not working advice?
Every morning, I start my day by planning it out in a custom template that displays my Google Calendar events and Todoist task list.
For real? One of the best ADHD tools I am aware of is called the Anti Planner.
It doesn't take long to find posts like "why to-do lists don't work for people with ADHD"https://coachjessicamichaels.com/2022/03/30/why-to-do-lists-...
Also, this blog post misses body doubling which is incredibly helpful and can even be done virtually with focusmate or a similar service (I use focusmate personally but I do want to spam so no referral link or crap like that). Indeed, for me the only way to swallow a frog is focusmate.
Yeah but ADHD is different for everyone. Most if not all of the strategies mentioned work for me.
stolen art
It looked AI-generated to me.
It is mentioned at the bottom of the post that the images are generated by OpenAI‘s DALL-E.
What's the difference between stolen art and ai generated stolen art? Both are illegal under the DMCA
And AI art is theft.
Hell, even a18n have admitted it!https://i.imgur.com/auBNG0N.jpg
post stuffed with stolen art and often heard but absolutely not working advice?
But it gets you to the HN front page!
I feel similar with the “every morning” stuff. The problem is I have a very hard time making some happen every morning.
Yes, the morning routine and "at the end of the day" journaling are things that I never successfully implemented.
Thanks for pointing to body doubling and anti planner. They seem like interesting concepts. Do you have any others that are worth checking?
This is great! So many people in the ADHD community don't dig in enough into the 'superpower' side of it, so I'm super glad you covered that here. We can't get rid of the bad parts so I think it's extra important to lean into the good parts too.
I will also share this Historia Civilis video on the history of work, which really resonated with me as an ADHD person -- It's OK and even more 'natural' to have fast and slow days.
And I will say, for me, Obsidian was another red herring. When I see Gwern's blog I dream about my ordered note taking life and I tried for about a year to do that with obsidian. I took a lot of notes, but I don't read them and they do nothing for me.
I ended up after a lot of trial and error with a bookmarklet that lets me take notes right in a browser window paired with a real planning app like tick tick or Google keep or whatever.
The quick notes are good for when I'm trying to avoid my other Todo list because there's something I don't want to do on it but I still need to take other notes.
Here's the bookmarklet I started with:https://gist.github.com/clisamurai/1f355b6028c8b9d1836b4ca01...
I think many people in the adhd community don’t think it’s a superpower, which is why we don’t dig into that. As someone who was diagnosed later in life the profundity of what adhd has cost me cannot be overstated. It is not a superpower, it is my worst enemy.
Same. My adhd has made me a decent developer despite very much not wanting to do that sort of work. However it has absolutely destroyed my life and relationships and my ability to even sit down and get dev work done. I’m currently on my third “sabbatical” of my life because I’m incapable of working right now. I’ve been jobless close to three years of my adult life now - not because I was ever fired, but because I’m incapable of managing my adhd well enough to work. I’m trying extremely hard
Instead of taking many notes I just only use the daily notes. Its basically one continuous stream that also represents the stream of time. So I could very easily scroll down a few days to see what I did then and if I need to look something up (I have all the days in one continuous view). Works well for me although sometimes its hard to separate work from personal notes this way.
Hi, author here,
This is great! So many people in the ADHD community don't dig in enough into the 'superpower' side of it, so I'm super glad you covered that here. We can't get rid of the bad parts so I think it's extra important to lean into the good parts too.
Thanks for your comment, that's what I wanted to express. We can't run away from the bad parts, so let's try to deal with it and find some stuff to help us.
hum the bookmarklet trick is clever, I suppose It should be able to sync to other device using a firefox account
Being diagnosed at the age of two with pretty severe ADHD I do not consider my disabling disorder a superpower in the least. I could see it as something if I was more naive that could be exploited by my employer if I had one and if I let myself into a situation like that and that would be damaging to me if I let that happen. I'm sure I could be really productive if I don't take care of myself for an extended period of time to finish a project using all of The fuel in my tank multiple times a month but I really don't ever want to be in that situation because that's basically where danger lies.
I think Slack is a silent killer of productivity, and terrible for an ADHD brain:
You're either "engaged" and "available" (meaning you respond to messages in semi-real-time, pretty much nixing your ability to do deep work) or you feel like you're missing a lot of conversation that's going on behind your back, because you're heads down with Slack closed. Slack is good for (shitty) managers of remote teams, because you can see who's "in the office", and randomly ping people when your lack of planning skills means that you are working on something that you forgot to get an answer for in a deliberate way (instead of buzzing by their cube as you used to do)...but for developers I think it's a poor bargain.
There are better tools out there that encourage and support async workflows. Twist, Basecamp, Github discussions, even email with appropriate filters.
Hi, author here,
You're right, but unfortunately, when your company uses it and teams are distributed, you don't have the choice, and you have to find some tricks to accommodate.
I disable the `pop up` notification and just let the counter in Ubuntu dock tick up. This lets me see that there is a message without the distracting words in my face.
I was thinking of this in bed last night. I could focus more using our terrible messaging system prior to Slack. And there was less banter, pessimism, pile ons, etc that now show up in threads. Sometimes I regret replying in a thread when it goes 50+ messages deep and you get pinged on it each one unless you mute
While I know it's different for everyone and every workplace, I think Slack can be both good and bad for ADHD!
For me, while the distractions of Slack can be a problem, just as often my issue is less distraction than just needing an external motivator to get started. In that case, a sudden DM asking for an update or a request for help in a public channel may be the only way I ever get started actually working. (Obviously, this works best if your job is more about helping others in general than about getting specific tasks done.)
My therapist recently diagnosed me with ADHD. I strongly disagree with that diagnosis, and I realised I don't know what ADHD actually is and that the internet and this article haven't been of any help.
I can relate to everything that this article says, but I suspect this is true of every single person with a mentally challenging job.
HN is full of developers complaining about open offices and useless meetings; do all of them have ADHD? Otherwise, what's the difference between a ADHD developer and a regular developer?
I _do_ have specific body problems that make my work harder, such as a very strong noise sensitivity and a circadian rhythm that requires me to sleep longer than the average person. Dealing with those specific problems did much more than throwing my hands in the air and yelling "ADHD".
Instead of a 2000-word article that might have been generated by AI, I would just follow these three points.
1. Sleep 9–10 hours every night.
2. Strong exercise regularly.
3. Work somewhere quiet and pleasant.
How does noise sensitivity manifest for you? Do you get severely anxious because of it or is it just a distraction?
Noise generates a very physical feeling of pain that tires me down and makes it impossible to focus.
It's the equivalent to having somebody constantly punch me in the face: it's annoying and distracting at first, and it eventually turns into tiredness and lack of motivation to do anything other than leaving the room I'm currently in to breathe some fresh air.
I understand this is something that happens to everyone (which is why so many people dislike open offices), but I have good reason to believe my noise sensitivity is worse than average and that it has been so since I was a kid.
complaining about open offices and useless meetings; do all of them have ADHD?
There's a commonly used diagnosis survey you can check. It should give you a better idea than this.
ADHD developer and a regular developer
To give you one example (but this won't cover all cases / everyone's experience), if you're in the bathroom and think you need to change the toilet roll, then proceed to forget and remember it again 6 times before leaving the room, then head for the toilet roll stash, forget about it and go make yourself a sandwich instead... and that applies to almost everything you do throughout the day, you're probably in category 1 not 2.
For medication, another example would be when you take stimulants and get relaxed, less nervous and feel like you could finally go for a nap...
What I'm saying is, some people may be experiencing smaller issues for the same reason, or they may just not be satisfied with their environment and are able to act on it, but there's some threshold where it's not even the same category. If you don't know what ADHD actually is, maybe check the experiences written by people who do struggle with basic things daily while seemingly highly functioning otherwise? There's a number of subreddits where you can find them.
HN is full of developers complaining about open offices and useless meetings; do all of them have ADHD? Otherwise, what's the difference between a ADHD developer and a regular developer?
Diagnostically speaking? The number of symptoms and the severity of those symptoms is basically it. Everyone will likely experience some of the symptoms of ADHD during their life. The co-occurence of those symptoms and the amount they affect your ability to function day-to-day is what makes the difference.
Some people will debate over how "real" ADHD is, where real means people with ADHD are a disjoint group and not just people on the very low end of the "ability to focus" bell curve. From my research I do believe it is "real", but that whether ADHD is "real" like sickle cell anemia is real or its just part of a normal bell curve doesn't really matter because society isn't going to adapt around you. If medication is what make the difference to maintain a normal life for some then that's probably a good thing that its available. If people who don't"really"have ADHD can learn strategies for focus and time management that's also a good thing.
Dealing with those specific problems did much more than throwing my hands in the air and yelling "ADHD".
For a lot of people, dealing with their specific problems starts with recognizing what those problems are and identifying strategies to help. Diagnosing it gives validation that its something concrete you can work on, gives access to mental health professionals who can help you develop solutions, and creates a community of people all trying to solve similar problems.
One of the more interesting things about ADHD is that some of the things ADHD sufferers call "coping strategies" (using calendars, writing documentation) are actually just really good ideas for anyone.
The twin demons of diminishing returns and hyperbolic discounting mean that people who don'tneedto have these systems in place for thecurrentdemands of their lives, usually don't have them in place. ADHD sufferers probably get more out of implementing and following these systems on the margin, so they're paradoxically more likely to reach for them than the average person. (I predict Getting Things Done is popular with both high powered executives of all kinds and middle of the road ADHD laden office workers.) But current demands being low rarely predicts future demands staying low, and having a habit of working with these things already deeply engrained is a really, really good idea even if your Todo list only has "Get out of bed", "Finish Breaking Bad S4" and "Get back in bed" on it.
Getting things done was written by someone with adhd, the entire system is one big coping strategy for not having a functioning working memory.
Not having a functioning working memory is one of the primary conditions of ADHD. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
I think the number of items that any given office worker in today's environment has to juggle far, far exceeds working memory, never mind that using working memory to maintain a running list of tasks precludes or at least contends with using it to actually think about the individual task at hand.
I haven't used the Getting Things Done method explicitly, but at a glance it looks like a more formalized version of what most of the people I know who are well-organized and have good time management skills seem to gravitate to naturally.
I don't think I know a single person who I'd consider "very on top of things" who doesn't have some mechanism, formal or informal, of noting/organizing/prioritizing thoughts and tasks. The idea that they are in fact coping with something and "regular" people just keep everything in their heads doesn't make any sense to me.
In the same way fire was discovered by an anemic woman, maybe. It seems most popular among my lawyer/paralegal friends, though, and "low working memory" is not a harbinger of success in those fields.
TIL using calendars and to-do lists means you have ADHD
No, that isn't what the article said.
It said that calendars and to-do lists help cope with ADHD, not that everyone who uses them has ADHD.
Ironically, it's easy to forget to put things in a calendar or on a todo list.
More irony:
- Forgetting to look at the calendar
- Forgetting to look at the to-do list -> Make a different to-do list
- Have 10+ to-do lists
- Forgetting what the to-do even refers to
- Discover emacs org mode, it can link everything together -> constantly forget emacs key bindings
- Use logseq/obsidian instead -> forget which names/links refer to projects -> have 10+ aliases referring to different perspectives of the same project
I need static types, logic programming, graph search algorithms, and a bit of AI, to help save me.
Also, it'd be nice if modern software was easier to interface with. Needs more support for deep linking and syncing. The "walled garden" approach is anathema to solutions that can help ADHDers.
Even more irony:
- "Forgetting" to look at the calendar, or to-do list, or your phone reminders, or a list written in large letters on a whiteboard behind your desk.
I seem to have a cognitive equivalent of an ad blocker, my mind will literally erase any task list from existence, the moment I start getting even slightly anxious about it. It's like a magic spell - I can put the list in front of my face, and my eyes will just keep glossing over it, like if it was a tear in reality.
Anyone else tired of blogs trying to make their content more interesting by slapping loads of generated images into each post?
I thought the images were pretty good, although obviously generated. They complimented the author’s points well.
While they are good, they fall in the graphic design uncanny valley where several details are disturbing and distracting.
Not in the slightest. It adds flavor to the page and makes it more approachable than just a wall of text. This is one of the benefits of generated images - it is a nice middle ground between creating your own and choosing from stock images.
Best productivity hack is to unplug the ethernet cable.
I can't find the ethernet cable on my phone :(
Desolder the modem temporarily
Depends a bit on the model, but you should be able to find it close to the mobile data toggle, do not disturb toggle and the physical power button.
This could not have been better timed for me. I was diagnosed with ADHD yesterday. Apparently for me, the working memory is a major issue. If anyone has any tips here I really appreciate it if you could comment your suggestions here.
This is me talking. I have more problems than just ADHD.
This is a long comment. If you just want a strategy for dealing with working memory inside your head, skip to the end and read 3.
For me increasing working memory was a dead end and I found it far more effective to optimize how do use what I have. The vast majority of my advice and strategies revolve around mental health. Mental and physical health alone can add one or two slots of working memory because your brain is working better.
Some advice:
- Do not limit yourself to doing daily things the normal or accepted way. Do not let yourself or other people tell you that you need to do things a certain way. If you can find a way to not lose your keys, it doesn't matter how crazy or stupid that way is because the end result is you don't lose your keys. (Please be considerate of other people.)
- Half measures are okay.
- Half done is usually better than not done. If you're stuck, walk away and get something else done. The feeling of accomplishment on a small task can recharge you. Then you can go back and finish the other task.
- Failing doesn't mean you need to fail completely. For example, if you're on diet and start annihilating a large number of small high-calorie snacks, that's not an excuse to finish the bag. :)
Strategies
1. Reduce your baseline cognitive load. That's basically what my advice is trying to do. The less you are fighting your own expectations and limitations, the more you can focus on getting things done. (Cognitive behavioral therapy is solution here.)
2. Remove stress or distractions. This is the same strategy as cognitive load, only applied to your environment. For me sometimes I just have to clean before I can get work done.
3. Map and reduce. This is involved and difficult to explain. I recommend using paper until you get good at this.
The goal is you need to do is take complex ideas that use multiple slots of working memory and make them take one or zero slots. There are several ways to do this.
Paper is the easiest method to explain. Write out what is in your memory and then rewrite it so that it compacts into one thing you understand. What you should be able to do is look at the paper and immediately understand what is going on without having to think about it. This frees up all your working memory to make connections to other things.
This can also be done with short term memory. You think about the problem and reduce it to a single idea or process. When you understand something well enough, you can hold a pointer to it in a slot of working memory.
Long-term memory is just regular learning. Programming languages and that embarrassing thing you said eight years ago are stored in long-term memory.
This is a very long article with lots of helpful information about ADHD and memory:https://add.org/adhd-memory-loss/
The highlights of their suggestions are:
* Break down complex tasks into smaller bits.
* Avoid multitasking.
* Create your own reminders, like setting alarms and reminders. Leave Post-It notes on areas you frequently look at.
* Habit stacking. If you constantly forget chores, you can stack them on top of something you regularly do. For example, you may put a load of laundry in while brewing your usual cup of coffee.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUZ9VATeF_4
This video has a lot of useful information. The straightforward answer is to externalize your memory and take notes.
I've gone through the process now of being reviewed for ADHD both in Australia and the US, and I can say Australia really makes the process nightmarish.
To start with: the meds are so restricted ordinary doctors / GPs can't prescribe them. And trying to bring up 'ADHD' may get you labeled as a 'drug seeker.' But let's say you get an appointment with a psychiatrist (the ordained ministers who can write stimulant prescriptions) - wait times can be anywhere from 3 - 6 months. Upon which you're not guaranteed to be taken seriously because psychiatry isn't an exact science and not every doctor even acknowledges everything in the DSM.
In the state that I'm in I had to be drug tested before and after getting on ADHD meds. Before to make sure that I wasn't a drug seeker. And after to confirm I was taking the meds and not selling them. My doctor then had to apply for a special license just to write my script. He did this by writing a letter full of supporting clinical information and applying for the license to issue the script. So after all that effort (easily 9+ months) you get the chance to be given meds by such a doctor. But currently there are supply chain shortages so many people aren't even able to get their meds.
My US experience (much shorter):
When I was in the US I used a telehealth app on my phone to speak to a amazing clinician who specialized in ADHD (google some or this looks like shilling.) I had my meds not long after that. I currently don't bother with medication though because although it works exceptionally well: I can't sleep on them. I'd say to US people - have a look at some of the apps out there. You'll want to go with people who can actually prescribe and not psychologists.
Keep in mind there are other reasons that can cause concentration issues (depression and insomnia are examples.) It would probably be better for most people not to have ADHD as other illnesses are potentially easier to treat with less side effects.
((I really liked the conciseness, typography, and artwork in the article, by the way.))
It’s a good thing Australia takes it seriously. Every man and his dog thinks he has adhd now-a-days.
It's better to have a diagnosis either way to be honest. If you have it and were undiagnosed for decades, you will finally have an answer to why you're different, and as some that took medication for the first time, it can finally go quiet in your head.
And if you don't have it, then you can look at other causes for your problems. Becausenobody(and/or their dog) will think they have ADHD unless they have identified a problem first.
100%. I’m glad Australia appears to be doing an actual diagnosis rather than just prescribing drugs.
All kids are different. Some kids can sit and read for hours. But some kids need to do physical stuff. Schools don’t cater for the latter. Gone are the days of learning wood work and metal work, cooking, sewing. Kids don’t do PE class like they used to. We try to ram all kids through the same meat grinder and when one resists we try to dumb them down with drugs and force them through. These kids are probably WORSE off being on drugs and shoved through the meat grinder than had they dropped out and done a trade skill instead. Nope it’s adhd and we got to drug them up and in most cases it’s a visit to the doctor and “do you have adhd” “I think so” “good enough for me here take this drug that I get paid to prescribe you”
I love how this community has such a disproportionate number of people who have ADHD. It's almost like programming is actually just incredibly difficult to pay attention to for any normal human being and the field is competitive enough that people basically have to find a way to get a prescription for stimulants.
(Honestly not trying to discredit anyone actually suffering from ADHD, just seem implausible to me that so many have it given that programming also just requires an unhealthy amount of attention to finish tasks in a "timely" manner).
To make it broader, neurodiverse conditions, autism spectrum being the other one; no surprise there's a lot of overlap between ADHD and ASD when it comes to some of the symptoms.
That honestly just isn't a stereotype I see play out in reality aside from the sort of "pop" coders like Carmack and Stallman. Like I've met neurodiverse coders, but in roughly the same proportion as I meet neurodiverse folks in other facets of life.
It may also be that many individuals who are on the autism spectrum also present with comorbid ADHD. And that things like coding, solving logic puzzles, rationality etc is disproportionately more interesting to peoplesomewhereon the autism spectrum. But.. I don't know.
I'm sure the post is useful but i'm getting really distracted by the AI anime-like art. Maybe tone it down a bit, yeah? For a post about helping ADHD sufferers focus on what matters, it's quite incongruous.
I liked it but it also made me think the text of the article was probably AI generated as well.
I'm into the art style, but was tipped off that it's AI-generated because it's filled with almost-letters making up almost-words
Had me until "Obsidian" - absolute worst thing ever for my ADHD. Hours spent tinkering ... experimenting with plugins. I was on the verge of developing plugins before I realized: I wasn't getting anything done. I gave up and went with OneNote. The freeform canvas is a godsend for my ADHD (I am able to lay things out spatially left and right), but I'm not able to tinker with it as much anymore.
So much this. My inbuilt desire for perfectionism occasionally leads me to believe I can create "the perfect system!" using tools like Obsidian, etc but what actually happens is that I spend a large amount of time working on the system and forgetting about the actual tasks I needed to do.
OneNote with it's "paste anything, anywhere on the page" and fairly minimal organisational options make it the closest thing to a notebook/scrapbook I've ever used on a computer. It's not perfect, and I've come to accept that :-)
You should try Logseq. What you do is just write. Don't actively think about it, organization will come naturally. Just liberally use tags and backlinks to find your notes later. That's all.
Lack of secretaries for creative types is astounding
Correspondence, keeping records and making appointments are attention destroying activities.
For a few year stretch I worked with a team project manager who wasn't technical at all. She'd setup the meetings that I needed to have, diligently take notes in those meetings and then we'd get together to recap everything figure out dates and all that. Then I'd get back to nerding out but with a ordered punch list that I knew Donna needed me to get done. It was the best.
But the pmo wanted to do things a different way so their engagement model moved from embedded PMs focused on team deliverables to individual project focus. Now instead of Donna there to assist with correspondence, keep records, make appointments, and carry out similar tasks I had an army of fragmented Donnas each focused on their one thing and each needing oversight to understand my involvement and external dependencies. The move probably gave the pmo a more modern feel and better reporting but it killed productivity for ADDs like me since a large portion of my time each day became correspondence, keeping records and making appointments instead of cranking out nerd units.
Fingers crossed an AI secretary will double (or more) my productivity.
Pauses. I am experimenting with basic scheme of 25 mins focus and then 5 mins pause. It is mind blowing how it lowers frustration and sort of ensures that I start work only on a clear task which I often tend to loose to easily. The biggest surprise are the pauses (no, no email checking or web browsing; get up and move around). While formerly I experienced it that I don't have enough time to do what I want to do, I experience just the opposite of it during pauses. Now, what do I do in this time? Wow. That's new. But also hard to stick to it. But there is more to it, the rules and principles that go along with it.
Sounds like the Pomodoro Technique [0] (also mentioned in the article). Glad it is working out for you! I tried that to help with my ADHD with very little and very fleeting success.
A very good writeup of how it works. Especially the perfection or nothing thing. I found that Trello helps because the stickers you create can be very simple, and I always need a reminder.
Thanks. I tried Trello, but it wasn't a good fit for me. I prefer using Todoist and I totally relate to the need of reminders
Can you share the plugins or scripts used with obsidian mentioned in the post? (Ie the ticket one/the calendar one) those seem very useful!
Hi,
Sure, I'm using Agile Task Note (https://github.com/BoxThatBeat/obsidian-agile-task-notes) for the Jira sync and for Google Calendar, I'm using obsidian-google-lookup (https://github.com/ntawileh/obsidian-google-lookup) and obsidian-google-calendar (https://github.com/YukiGasai/obsidian-google-calendar)
Worthwhile read on the topic: Dr Gabor Mate’s “ Scattered Minds: A New Look at the Origins and Healing of Attention Deficit Disorder”
Is ADHD a real thing? I see too many SV engineers diagnosed with ADHD to the point that it feels like a large scam run by psychiatrists that they lowered the threshold of the actual ADHD.
I would have thought this was me writing this in a fugue state.
I was diagnosed last year with ADHD, at 32.
I would say ADHD has traits, you might not have all but once you start doing research into it you find you tick a lot of the boxes. Psychologists can help as they can figure out what works with you, once you find a decent one.
Everything in this post is great, as always find what works for you.
That Amazon Silent Meeting thing... I think that would drive me crazy. It's annoying enough when someone hasn't read what you've posted as an agenda in a meeting invite and you have to tell them about it. I don't want to sit on camera with 6 other people reading a 6 page document.
The audio environment plays a big role when it comes to fighting distractions, especially when having ADHD.
The problem is usually that it’s either too quiet (so the brain is not engaged and every small noise is very hearable and distracting) or too loud.
The other problem is when the sound environment is not predictable. This means your brain is constantly afraid it will get distracted (phone call, slack notification etc.) and you can’t enter a flow state.
I cannot trust someone who did well at school but claims to have ADHD.
i don't have adhd but i definitely have fked up executive function and oh boy do i procrastinate! it always has been when weeks have passed on, months even years! and i still haven't made up mind to tackle the tasks. Has led to gigantic amount of missed opportunities. I seriously fed up of it. God know makes me scared about thinking when get old and frail. Have read lots of self-help books based on "evidence backed science" only to realize that none work and the authors make a buck exploiting people's desperateness, lazy people are seriously helpless i guess.
I don’t recall a single piece on the subject that attempted to define productivity. I’m saying this because my own conflicts with the condition taught me that work is not something so simplistic as for the same strategies to be effective in all environments. What in fact has worked for me, is not exactly to adapt myself to the work, but rather to adapt the work to my limitations. I keep realizing that productivity has many forms. Merely being able to sit and yield artifacts at a high velocity is not necessarily productive. When on pharmaceutical amphetamine, I’m perfectly “productive”, but most of the times the quality of the results are poor. In comparison, the work I yield when not on medication, although performed completely irregularly, tends to be much more high quality. So it must be acknowledged that productivity has no intrinsic relation to efficiency. It’s much more important to be efficient than “productive”. All in all, it’s important for folks with ADHD to treat themselves better and find a compromise when dealing with the societal expectations placed on them. I honestly find bizarre some strategies people employ to cope with work, flirting the inhumane, like a self-inflicted dystopia.
I’m 39. I’ve been diagnosed with ADHD/AS about 11 months ago, after having seen a psychiatrist complaining about chronic fatigue (cf. my Ask HN from two years ago [0]).
Methylphenidate has helped _immensely_. As has accepting the wiring of my brain, taking a two-months sabbatical, and practicing awareness about the ADHD habits. I’m having the year of my life. I can’t remember being productive this consistently basically ever.
I have trouble trusting this when the first thing I see is AI Art. It makes me think the article might have been generated too.
I just want to be able to read a whole book.
Honestly I'm not sure these are strategies for dealing with ADHD, rather than just strategies for dealing with modern work and life.
Or maybe I have ADHD too.
TBH I found this article a bit poorly written, especially around the core of the symptoms*. It does not even list out what exactly are the kinds of things to look for when you are in say your 30's or something and suspect you have ADHD. The list of recommendations though are good, especially simplifying note taking, which can be a drag to keep upto date.
I would also add meditation and getting a good counselor/licenced therapist(they are hard to find). You can find a good counselor in a few ways: from someone who does your formal neuropsych eval, ask your kid's doctor. Look at psychologytoday.com and filter the list and run through it. For ADHD which does not accompany severe cognitive impairments you want to likely look at a CBT coach(Phd,PsyD holders) to help. Someone who knows what they are doing.
* If you think you have ADHD or ADD please consult the complete DSM-V manual[0](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519712/table/ch3.t3/) and at least try and match your symptoms up from your past experiences. I would highly recommend a neuropsychlogical evaluation test. Google for it.
Here is an abridged list[1] of symptoms from DSM5 for ready reference:
Inattention: Six or more symptoms of inattention for children up to age 16, or five or more for adolescents 17 and older and adults; symptoms of inattention have been present for at least 6 months, and they are inappropriate for developmental level:
◦ Often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, at work, or with other activities.
◦ Often has trouble holding attention on tasks or play activities.
◦ Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly.
◦ Often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (e.g., loses focus, becomes sidetracked).
◦ Often has trouble organizing tasks and activities.
◦ Often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to do tasks that require mental effort over a long period of time (such as schoolwork or homework).
◦ Often loses things necessary for tasks and activities (e.g., school materials, pencils, books, tools, wallets, keys, paperwork, eyeglasses, mobile telephones).
◦ Is often easily distracted.
◦ Is often forgetful in daily activities.
Hyperactivity and Impulsivity: Six or more symptoms of hyperactivity-impulsivity for children up to age 16, or five or more for adolescents 17 and older and adults; symptoms of hyperactivity-impulsivity have been present for at least 6 months to an extent that is disruptive and inappropriate for the person’s developmental level:
◦ Often fidgets with or taps hands or feet, or squirms in seat.
◦ Often leaves seat in situations when remaining seated is expected.
◦ Often runs about or climbs in situations where it is not appropriate (adolescents or adults may be limited to feeling restless).
◦ Often is unable to play or take part in leisure activities quietly.
◦ Is often “on the go,” acting as if “driven by a motor.”
◦ Often talks excessively. ◦ Often blurts out an answer before a question has been completed.
◦ Often has trouble waiting his/her turn.
◦ Often interrupts or intrudes on others (e.g., butts into conversations or games).
================
[0]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519712/table/ch3.t3/
[1] Hallowell, Edward M.; Ratey, John J.. ADHD 2.0 (p. 138). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Some people mainly have symptoms of inattention.
Its actually the opposite. I found that its to do with lots of attention just not at the task at hand.
I'm having my first visit to a doctor regarding my symptoms this week. Very interested if I need a treatment and what they will say. My main problem is craving for dopamine: nicotine, caffeinated drinks, hot shower, games, tv shows, drugs - I just cannot focus, I crave for something to stimulate my brain, and sometimes I end up abusing substances because of this. For example, I used 5-7 doses of nicotine spray per hour. Just like a mouse that found a button for dopamine release. I think if I can eliminate this, I will feel much better.
A little off topic, but I recently realized I've been stimming for decades. I don't fidget or do any of the standard stimming techniques. What I do instead is explore the space I'm in with my eyes. Like right now, staring at a pen on my desk, after a few seconds my eyes start to explore other objects on my desk.
Is in an ADHD thing to scatter random pictures through the article rather than just have the text? Perhaps it breaks things up in a way that makes concentration easier? For me they were a distraction -- I much prefer to have a wall of text.
The web is full of this style these days, so perhaps the algos have decided it increases engagement.
This is not a snark comment or a complaint about style! People should post however they wish! I am just curious if there is data on the topic. I know Medium requires a junk picture at the top of every post, but I haven't seen data on this from them, just an assertion that it's importand.
I really don't think this article has much to do with ADHD. Work is work even if you like what you're doing. Nobody can handle the barrage of notifications and being always-online and always-available. Couple that with a job that requires focus and it's an uphill battle. Again, this is for everyone.
Everything in the article can be applied to everyone.
From someone that actually has ADHD and has finally got it under control:
1. Our genetics means that one gene producing double the dopamine uptake receptors and a combo of other genes messes with something else (50% of all ADHDers have an anxiety disorder either GABA or serotonin based). In fact that is why ADDERALL is not addictive for us but is addictive to a normal person with the normal count of dopamine uptake receptors as cocaine, meth, etc. work on the TAART stretch of the dopamine uptake receptor. 2. Dopamine analogs plus coffee troopics tend to work at getting leverage to put time org and note org on top. My stack is: -30 mg caffeine taken one to 2 hours after waking when cortisol starts decreasing -green tea extract -maca extract -vitamins through fenugreek -dopamine analog via goji berries -L-theanine to stretch the 2 hour caffeine effect to 6 hours
Note for non ADHD people your cortisol starts decreasing after you wake about 1 to 2 hours after waking as this is what made caffeine drinks a habit. It is not wrong to take caffeine an hour or two after waking or at 10 am. You just should follow it up with the weak EGCG found in green tea and L-theanine to make it stretch to 6 hours.
Dopamine acts as a motivator, urging us to achieve goals and complete tasks.
this isn't really right...
Norepinephrine comes into play with executive tasking
Here's another hack: 10mg Methylphenidate. YMMV, but the alternative is a boat load of systems, routines, caffeine, which all may or may not work depending on how the day/week is going. Not a panacea to be sure, but for those adults with ADHD inattentive where dopamine deficiency impacts executive functioning it can be essential (and incredibly effective).
Can't hack ADHD without first sorting out other problems.
It's treated as a singular issue but in my experience it's not. Here are some factors to consider:
1) Does the person have a quiet place get high quality sleep in
2) How is their relationship with family and significant other
3) Do they exercise - physical stamina helps build mental stamina and helps with clarity
4) Do they eat healthy
5) Anxiety or depression. If we are constantly distracted there's likely a good reason for that. You can't focus on movie if your house is on fire and this fire can be emotional one with unresolved traumas etc.
What we see is only the tip of the iceberg and fixing the roof before we address the foundation won't work longterm.
The way I work is being driven by obsessions. I have strong hyperfixation and hyperfocus tendencies that I can't control. If there is something interesting that captivates me, I will do it continuously for hours, days and even weeks. Sometimes I seemingly lose all interest for no reason and have a hard time picking it up again. When the hyperfocus hits, it feels amazingly euphoric and "zen". It's the same feeling you get when you're watching a video and just become a zombie starting at the screen, purely consuming the content without any other thought, and when it ends, you're left with this dreadful feeling of coming back to your pitiful existence.
My mind is always preoccupied. I have a constant inner monologue. Whenever I tend to be in a waiting room I just stare at the wall and start imagining conversations and situations and start talking to myself about various topics. My mind always makes connections between so many different topics, I can never keep a straight line of thought. One subject will bring another and another. A constant web of thoughts. I tend to have very long-winded (up to 5 continious hours or more) conversations with friends that leave me sweaty and exhausted.
I've heard that ADHD helps a lot with introspection, self-reflection. While the constant noise and urge to be active feels debilitating, I've had some pretty interesting and life-changing conversations with myself that a lot of people don't often experience without anyone else present. Although it balances out with the constant anxiety.
When it comes to entertainment, I'm always a binge-reader, binge-watcher and binge-player. Visual novels have probably kept my attention the most and I must have spent entire days reading them.
When it comes to doing my work, it's a weird dance. I must have the impression that the task is easy, and the steps are obvious. That often is not the case, but the situation gets me in a zen state where I combat the problem until I come to a reasonable situation that passes one way or another. If I know it's going to be hard, I can't even start without having a panic attack. You can feel it in your stomach. Your mind starts to blank out. Your vision gets blurry. It's the sort of feeling when you see something that makes you really ill. For some people that's a dead body, for me it's medical descriptions.
Even saying all of that, I still doubt that's how I really function. Looking from the outside, I just get the urge to do something, and I act on that urge. That's all. Whatever it be. It will take all my focus, and all of my energy, and you won't be able to get me out of that focus state. I will keep thinking about it until I either get to sleep or something snaps me hard out of it, and that severely decreases my motivation. Relying on instinct and acting on my obsessions was the only thing that helped me, either directly or indirectly. Otherwise I can't manage.
Medication has immensely helped me control my focus and help me take breaks, but not even that stops me from acting sometimes. I've seen a few comments here mention body doubling, this has also helped me a lot, services like FocusMate are amazing and I can't praise them enough, so simple, yet so effective, and my anxiety really pushes its effectiveness further.
Yes, I am currently hyperfocusing on writing this, if you couldn't tell by the several paragraphs of text and over-sharing. I have a task to write an article about my ADHD, yet it's still sitting there, because posts like these are the only things that get me to write about it.
I tried getting diagnosed and medicated and I was scheduled an appointment with a horrible psychiatrist that dismissed all of my problems and said I couldn't have ADHD if I could recite the days of the week backwards and sit still. The horrible things I felt after that still haunt me to this day and it occasionally slips into my mind and makes me sick. It is an extremely embarrassing thing to share, but a previous comment mentioning this told me that it's alright, and it's a reasonable traumatic response.
Writing about how I dealt with school would be just repeating what others have said. Deadlines never had any effect on me, I would always do things on the last day or few days, and I had an extremely difficult time with math because I how I mostly think is by making connections between previous information, which I find hard to do with math, that requires pure reasoning and logic. More can be found herehttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22133706
I don't like breaking down tasks. I don't want to plan anything. The only reasonable way I get work done is by bashing away, being pissed off it doesn't work as I expect, and keep working hours non-stop until I get to a reasonable state. The less I know, the better. Unfortunately, that doesn't work for most of the time, especially for big projects. All the things people use as crutches make me ill. I have never planned my day. I go with the flow. The only "productivity tools" I've ever used is the reminder and a simple task list just to keep track of interesting goodies I might pursue. I have a horrible working memory and externalize an immense amount of information and keep it in notes format. I am a RABID fan of Zettelkasten and preach it like the second coming of Jesus Christ.
A few years ago, I was part of a neurodiversity ERG, and we were gathering recommendations for the new office that was going to be built. I found "Designing a Neurodiverse Workplace"[0]. It is a fantastic design document that told me about things I didn't have the language to express that I needed. One of the points it makes is "have a variety of types of spaces and let people pick and move between them", which the author touches on with regard to hybrid work. Everyone (not just ND people) gets overwhelmed by sensory stimuli sometimes, needs to be alone sometimes, needs to be around people and noise sometimes. I kinda knew "yeah yeah accessibility benefits everyone" but I didn't reallygetit until then. Highly recommend reading this.
[0]:https://www.hok.com/pdf/download/31839/
If that link doesn't work:https://www.hok.com/ideas/publications/hok-designing-a-neuro...
Great post! I don't know if I have ADHD, but I have struggle with getting into focusing and staying focused if I don't get into the zone, a lot of that speaks to me.
For me, having multiple monitors has been a game-changer; it allows me to spread out my tasks visibly and switch between them as needed without losing track
Fun, I have had the opposite revelation. I had several monitors for years, and what made a difference was switching to just a wide one, plus some hygiene around closing windows I don't use. Using a nice background helps, as it motivates me yo have sufficiently little content that I can see it.
While the open office layout is often praised for fostering collaboration, it can be a minefield of distractions for someone with ADHD
And interestingly again, I like going to the office because a) few of my colleagues are going, b) I have much less distractions there than at my place
Amazon’s Silent Meeting Technique
From my short tenure at Amazon, this is one thing I miss to an obsessive degree. These are great. But switching to other companies and failing to advocate for it, I realized that people don't like reading. They want to be fed content. I dread when something is documented through the recording of a meeting, I want a doc. I hope to find such a culture again!
Obsidian isn’t just a note-taking app for me; it’s the cornerstone of my daily organization
I like the idea in concept. I even built an extension for Obsidian that parses all your notes for to-dos and presents them as aninteractiveboard and backlog (Proletarian Wizard). I have used that for a few years, but I usually drift enough from my todos that it's not very useful. The other problem with all these syncs is that they are one way only, so it'd make me anxious that the info is scattered between my system and the central one. Like the idea though.
Team members are encouraged to block off periods in their calendars
Does that work for anyone? I have been doing that for years, through probably 5 or 10 teams, and so far my main observation is that people don't give any consideration for my own agenda. The moment my calendar is busy to beyond 50%, people start sending invites on time marked busy. I think they mostly don't even check, or sometimes even worse they take notice and send something in the likes of "you were marked busy but I hope you can join".
Other hack I will put out there -- I find if I do cardio exercise 30-45 minutes or more it gives me more constant focus for a couple days.
You need to have a note capable phone like a galaxy 23 ultra. You also need a smart watch so you don't turn off your reminders in meetings and to forget to turn back on. Redmine and or jira are your friends. Make a list of all expectations and star the ones that are action items. Ironclad once a day go through the list and either complete or transfer into a task tracking system each starred item and then check it off--don't use the list to manage tasks. If you manage others, do the same and set follow up events for you. Never silence, only snooze alarms unless completed. Set annoying alarms or block out time for heads down work to avoid time blindness for when you hyperfocus. Your Ventromedial prefrontal cortex is not functioning correctly and consequently your planning system needs a wheelchair.
Sounds very much like me as far a symptoms and challenges go.
will bookmark this and try some of the tips. Thanks for sharing!
Whilst I agree with a lot of this, I think there's an issue around expecting someone with ADHD to just onboard using all these tools without a prior history and engrained usage.
Such as just "using wikis and JIRA etc" is a bit handwavey imho, it needs to stick otherwise it'll just be forgotten.
Reader modes for reading web articles can be really handy for those with HDHD.
I maintain a reader mode called Just Read that is pretty customizable if you're interested:https://justread.link/
article seems good but ledger.com publishing this is kinda hilarious.
also i am about to work better at the office for focus mode
What I've learned is that there isn't such thing as focus. Focusing is not something you can do. Focus is simply a lack of distractions. If you block all distractions, the only thing left is focus. Blocking distractions is something you can do, if you want to.
The major issue is how to catch up with important news and developments without getting distracted.
I have ADHD and unapologetically take adderall.
Yes, there's a stigma but there's also about a 6x improvement in my mood and ability to stay focused on a single task after I take 5mg. I've never developed dependency and generally only take it 3-4 times a week. I've also never really had to increase the dose.
This came after two diagnosis from neuropsychiatrists both reaching the same conclusion.
Being diagnosed at 22 I'm glad I wasn't prescribed adderall as a teen but I loathe how much more I could have achieved in college seeing how much more capable I am now.
I acknowledge it's probably not great for my heart health - but I was so depressed about how I was unable to get anything done or focus on studying before that I'd always make this tradeoff.
This hits home.
I think we need to really take a hard look at today's world of tech and how we communicate and collaborate.
I find that, if time allows, I get a massive productivity boost after 4:30pm and everyone is either winding down or leaving. All the sudden, the walls flatten, the horizon deepens and I enter a deep state of flow.
Around 10 AM, after an elongated "stand up", I should be ready to go... And yet it's absolutely impossible to not alt-tab 300 times per hour, and I can't seem to even remember the code I just typed or what the hell I'm even trying to do.
Even if I close Slack, Outlook and turn off all notifications, I've got a minute-by-minute cron job in the back of my head that ticks
I remember once I had to travel for family, to a different timezone, I was super productive. Only 1 14" screen and a different timezone. Pedal to the metal.Ah, the 90s. The CRT, the keyboard, the fullscreen applications, the lack of communication. 1 or 2 emails a day. Bliss.
Add to today: kids, imessages, facebook, twitter, mastodon, instagram, emails, slack, discord... How the fuck do I even survive the week?
I think ADHD is the new norm.