Wow, it's very rare for companies to move in this direction. This is the polar opposite direction of what Apple's been doing.
Wow, it's very rare for companies to move in this direction. This is the polar opposite direction of what Apple's been doing.
It'll be a very dark day for us all when Valve turns evil.
Steam Deck has been a modder's dream since it came out. Just having "desktop mode" be a standard option has been amazing.
Valve turns evil
Some people and legislators are arguing that unregulated digital gambling is very very evil
Gambling is very different from csgo cases and pokemon cards. One of the insidious aspects of gambling is that people can delude themselves that they can actually get rich from it
I'm sorry to tell you this but csgo has a thriving secondary market where you can exchange items for real money.
I'm aware and I'm not going to deal in absolutes because I'm sure there are a few people out there that do think they can make money from csgo skins but it's absolutely nothing compared to actual gambling.
I'm a former gambling addict, it is very very difficult for me to lose the amount of money I have lost at craps or blackjack playing magic the gathering.
I don't think we can classify all variable reward systems as gambling. Even competitive online chess with elo and matchmaking could be classified as gambling.
Look at the wikipedia page: > Gambling (also known as betting or gaming) is the wagering of something of value ("the stakes") on a random event with the intent of winning something else of value, where instances of strategy are discounted. Gambling thus requires three elements to be present: consideration (an amount wagered), risk (chance), and a prize.[1] The outcome of the wager is often immediate, such as a single roll of dice, a spin of a roulette wheel, or a horse crossing the finish line, but longer time frames are also common, allowing wagers on the outcome of a future sports contest or even an entire sports season.
CS cases ticks all of the boxes. I'm really curious why your definition of gambling is.
I find all this handwringing about cosmetics gambling ridiculous when sports betting is becoming more and more accepted and legal.
I don't think we can classify all variable reward systems as gambling.
That's true. thank you for your perspective
Gambling is literally anything where you pay money to have a chance to win something. That includes all these loot box things in literally any and all of its forms.
As someone who was once addicted to these games, they should absolutely be illegal. We really should not allow corporations to print money with drug dealer methods.
That definition is very reductive. Any competitive tournament with an entree fee is gambling?
Also, the reason I'm against banning such games is because when you look at all the things we find fun, you will be sad to see that a lot of them just boil down to variable reward. That variable reward aspect is what makes it fun.
Competitive games are not based on chance. Betting on the outcome is.
Competitive games are not based on chance
You would be wrong. Even chess has variance, the better player does not always win.
Then there are games that actually integrate chance as a mechanic and are still competitive.
One of the insidious aspects of gambling is that people can delude themselves that they can actually get rich from it
Do you really think TCGs are not gambling? Guess people open MTG and Pokemon packs just for "fun" then.
Why would holo cards, foils, and mythic rares exist? Black Lotus is just a piece of cardboard after all.
I agree, I mean to the kids (And some adults with nothing else to do) the digital items and such are "Getting Rich"
If you mean gambling in Counter Strike, at least it's not explicitly aimed at children.
Children don’t play Counter Strike?
laughs in Eve Online
Valve already did the evil part, they were just so early to the game (pun intended) no one knew how to react or what it meant. They somehow avoided mass criticism, or I wasn't paying good enough attention.
I question a 30% developer fee for using Steam. Loot boxes in CS and TF2 to get and keep kids gambling. Destroying nearly every mod and skin community. I don't think I'm willing to sweep all that under the rug because they made it easier to open a steam deck.
I like Valve believe it or not, but I question a lot of these decisions.
While I won't argue loot boxes, and I dont know enough about mod/skin communities...
The 30% developer fee makes a lot more sense if you consider that steam is much more than a game store. They host forums, guides, achievements, cloud saves, multiple versions of the game at once with beta channel access, screenshots, remote play, extras like Proton support, a friends list that will show you when other people are playing a game (advertising). And the store page has all sorts of stuff like ratings, reviews... a shopping cart and ability to purchase more than 1 game at a time (didn't know that was a feature, but apparently it is). And top of all that, it's just frankly where PC gamers are, so theres a ton of built in marketing.
Not every game benefits from all these things. But it's hardly just a storefront. I would question Gamestop taking a 30% cut. I would question if EGS wanted the same 30% cut as valve gets. Gamers prefer Steam over EGS, and the reason they prefer it isn't just because "it's a nicer store front." It's a whole platform thing.
host forums
Some of their discussion forums are incredibly toxic though, seeming to have no effective moderation.
Baldurs Gate 3 and Starfield spring to mind as clear examples, though it wouldn't surprise me if there are even worse ones around.
People Make Games did a great half-hour documentary on it. It's... pretty bad.
I would question Gamestop taking a 30% cut
Why? Physical distribution is way more expensive and they handle the entire consumer lifecycle.
Loot boxes in CS and TF2
It's apples and oranges.
It's worth pointing out that this is for cosmetics. The largescale lootbox outcries have been exclusively about gameplay advantages. Games that only provide cosmetics are usually praised for being fair. For example, Overwatch also has lootboxes - but for cosmetics only - and nobody gives a damn.
And then there's cards, which you earn for free, and can sell for a wallet balance in order to buy games.
keep kids gambling
I don't believe this is their goal, even though they certainly aren't doing enough to prevent it.
Overwatch *had lootboxes. Now it has a BattlePass you buy, new heros are locked behind buying the BattlePass or grinding the first ~40 levels to get it for free, and also premium cosemtics in a FOMO-style "today's deals" daily rotation store. No lootboxes. I miss OW lootboxes. I'm not a gambler but the surprise/novelty was fun, and once I had most cosemtics I wanted I could also just collect them which was satisfying. I had >500 and double digits of every seasonal loot box at the end of OW1.
Blizzard had the worst luck. Their loot boxes were fair and most reasonable, but because they also looked so visually appealing, they were used in the thumbnail and header of every major article describing the horrors of loot boxes in general.
As a developer, I don't mind paying the 30% for the hosting, payment handling, discoverability, community management etc.
I can't say if it's truly worth the 30%, but I sure don't want to be handling all those services myself or through others.
Yep. Valve takes that cut and serves up your game (and its patches) on demand FOREVER. No need to fight for shelf space, or bicker with store management on product positioning or any other shit. When a gamer wants your game, they get it, and if they're looking for something that might be like your game, they'll find yours, too.
I also remember reading an article from way back when that said that brick and mortar revenue cuts were at _least_ twice what Steam was taking. Perhaps this memory is totally wrong... with today's Google I'll certainly never be able to find the source of the memory.
Lot's of uproar back then. Many people did not switch to steam for as long as possible.
When they established a 30% fee they were on the cutting edge of digital stores and doing something very risky. So to make what they made work was great for small developers.
I would argue they still aren't evil (and Apple is, though I am a shareholder) because Steam, the Windows store and Epic can all live together on my PC as competing store / DRM. If a developer doesn't want to give up 30%, they have viable alternatives.
I am with you on the loot boxes, not sure I agree on the rest. City skylines as an enormous modding community, on steam, for example.
I am OK with the 30%, because it's not a monopoly. You can use any other store, "sideload", whatever, without restrictions. I think, but I am not sure, that you could actually offer your game cheaper on other channels in parallel. But because people like the convenience of steam (which is probably one if not the best implementation of a software store) that many would pay the premium to have the game on steam.
They somehow avoided mass criticism, or I wasn't paying good enough attention.
Let me tell you about the Counter-Strike 1.6 Beta update in 2002...
https://counterstrike.fandom.com/wiki/Steam
(Geez, 21 years ago!)
But yes, you are otherwise correct. That said, I argue that Valve has done an overall good job providing value to their users and even developers.
It's privately owned so does not have the shareholder pressure to keep increasing share holder value.
The do increase shareholder value, just in exactly short-term. The problem with publicly traded companies is not as much wanting to increase the value, but how short is the time horizon, when most owners don't have any understanding of the bussiness other than just handful of numbers every quarter.
Valve has a history of being pretty anti-consumer, especially in regard to obeying warranty and returns.
They were very early on in pushing “gambling for kids” with loot boxes and microtransactions.
But yeah, exposed screws are cool I guess.
You're right. Steam also charges an atrociously high % of revenue, and yet people bitch endlessly when they have to use Epic Games Store or other marketplaces EVEN THOUGH we espouse so much about game developers being constantly fucked by big companies.
Valve is a private company, so it would probably be after gaben leaves the company
Steam is not a publicly traded company. Their decisions don't necessarily have to improve profit margins.
Their decisions don't necessarily have to improve profit margins
They can always rely on the gambling money. Takes 0 effort (all digital), unregulated, and it's enormously popular on Steam.
You're trying to muddy the waters by calling it gambling. Gaming and digital loot boxes are different. Even if they share some similarities. Gambling is far, far more destructive than digital loot boxes in games. No need to conflate the two.
How is it not gambling? You put in something you need to buy with money to receive an item you can trade for money. Sounds awfully similar to me like you go to a casino, get some chips to wager and then later trade the remaining chips back for money. Regardless of whether the "official" law states it's gambling or not from a moral perspective they are pretty much identical.
to receive an item you can later trade for money.
A person could reasonably argue can be exchanged vs primarily intended as a stand in for cash is important. If the items are intended as actual items people value then that's more defensible than say chips that only exist to be cashed out. (And I'm not familiar enough to know whether that's the case here)
I would maybe agree with you if the marketplace were not operated by Valve. But it is. This makes very clear that the one of the intended use cases of the skins is to be sold. Which is understandable, it's very likely Valves makes in the order of a billion dollars just from the marketplace.
Gambling is far, far more destructive than digital loot boxes in games.
Nope. They are exactly the same thing. Same effect on the brain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_gambling
Valve could shutdown the whole thing with one button but they don't. Do you know why because it's profit for them too. Every case and every key sold.
Also, they have a much more narrow target market with different interests and priorities.
"PC gamer" correlates with "hardware tinkerer" much more strongly than "telephone user" does.
Publicly traded companies also don’t have to increase profit margins. They generally do, but so do privately traded companies.
I don't think Apple is the pinnacle of repairability by any means, but they have been making slow improvements in this area (like replaceable back glass in the new model phones, the entire mainboard doesn't need to be replaced for common repairs as often now, etc).
I don't know on which planet you live but every new generation is worse than the previous one.
My last macbook needed to have a battery replaced during Apple Care (after only 2 years) and they just gave me a new body (no dents, same specs, same keyboard layout, transplanted the ssd - or transferred the data, not sure) and plugged it to the old screen.
If they don't bother swapping a battery...
Citing something that's been the same way for all Apple laptops for at least a decade doesn't really support your assertion that it gets worse with every generation.
Your repair was probably done by moving your laptop's motherboard into a new lower case (with a corresponding new battery glued in).
Is there any real justification for glueing batteries in beyond obstructing replacement?
It's not as if there's any space for them to slide around, they're a fairly tight fit in a compact device, and there's got to be plenty of other options to keep them in place if there is a little bit of looseness to deal with.
(I guess they'll use safety as an excuse, to reduce the risk of the damage to cells. But it's not the real reason, is it?)
The case isn't so tight the batteries can't move. LiPoly batteries expand and contract when they heat and cool. The case needs enough space for that to happen without putting pressure on the battery.
When the battery is at its most contracted state it can move if it's not fixed to the case by some means. Movement of the battery puts stress on the connectors and can lead to a short (or worse).
Gluing the battery in the case is a safe way of fixing it in place inside the case. Screw tabs would give the opportunity during assembly of puncturing the battery casing with a tool or screw. They could also work themselves loose with the thermal expansion cycles.
But people like the thought-terminating "Apple bad" narratives.
I think Apple essentially sells disposable, glued shut, one time use electronics while grandstanding like crazy about the environment.
Lisa Jackson has probably the hardest job at the whole company, to drum up the stats and relativism to make it look like they are trying at all in any meaningful way, and not just lying about their portfolio of dystopian horrors and banal inconveniences.
My house is full Apple products, the average device is well over 5 years old. The gaming PC I built after the MBP I use is virtually worthless now, as the motherboard is fried and buying a new socket LGA 1150 motherboard just isn't worth it.
All electronics are the result of dystopian horors, and they generally don't have a very good shelf life. Are you aware of how many SuperFund sites are in Silicon Valley?
Pretty dull newsflash, this is the exact kind of weak, destructive relativism I was talking about in my post.
Apple's the worst, except for all the rest? I should lay off Apple because they're doing better than their competitors?
You're not opening any eyes by saying everyone is doing terribly, you're just responding to dissent with tired whataboutism and false claims of futility.
The market and regulators and device builders and customers could do better and should.
Apple wants to claim be leader in this space, they should do so with substance.
Apple has a billion dollar PR engine trying to convince you that privacy was Apple's idea or repairability was their idea. It wasn't. Its them trying to get in front of regulation in the EU and outmaneuver their competitors.
Do you think the iphone 15 being USB-C was Apple's idea too?
Woz himself has spoken out against Apple's anti-repair stance.
For a few gens now "simple" to swap out iPhone parts like screens need to be purchased directly from Apple and authorized to go into the device that's being repaired via IMEI. This kills off tons of third party market options. Imagine if vehicle manufacturers required that you buy all replacement parts from them. In the case of vehicles, there are tons of used, reconditioned, and third party parts available that work just fine as replacements.
This kind of behavior is why I'll never "buy" an Apple device; you never truly own it and can do what you want to do with it, from both hardware and software perspectives.
https://screenrant.com/apple-self-service-program-requires-s...
It'd be nice if it was a real console and not a glorified Nintendo games piracy device.
It's very easy to be user friendly when your business model is relying on piracy, they even showed an emulator in a now deleted trailer
Are there stats on what proportion of Deck use is piracy? I have a Deck, half my friends have Decks, none of them have mentioned piracy as a use case that I can recall.
A 40 year old with a twenty year back catalog of Steam titles gives me plenty of things to play.
Emulators are not illegal, nor are compatible clones of consoles. It's actually weird that there aren't many alternative implementations of consoles in current times. There were plenty in the NES days.
I'd rather have companies putting out emulator-friendly devices than re-charging for the same game every time a new hardware generation rolls around. The steam deck is just a computer at the end of the day, people are going to run emulators on it.
I think that's pretty reductive. They have a whole category of games that are great on Deck. I love playing Streets of Rage 4 and Katamari reroll on it.
Valve's a software distribution company, not a hardware company.
The steam deck exists primarily to expand their targetable market.
It's of no benefit to them if people's devices fail - they just stop buying games (unlike Apple, where the devices are intended to slow down or stop working altogether).
If you do it well, the polar opposite just boots your marketing and overall goodness.
It's amazing to watch how Torx screws have gone from crime against humanity to actually a good thing over the last decade.
Hex are a crime only because there are way too many sizes.
More sizes than any other type of screw? I doubt it. In my experience they are more standardized into a few discreet sizes.
edit: Also, you said Hex and I'm assuming you meant Torx (since GGP did). But that could very easily be a bad assumption, so I apologize if it is.
I think it may seem like Torx has more sizes than say Phillips or flat-headed screws due to the fact that with those you can generally get away with a screw driver that is "close enough" in size, whereas with Torx you really need the exact size the screw is using.
If you want to strip your screws, you can do that. And then there's the Pozi vs Philips thing that people tend to get wrong. Torx is kind of a pain in the ass because you always try the wrong screwdriver first, but it's still way better than philips/pozidriv
Also, Torx takes the guesswork out of determining which bit to use. If it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. Phillips can be a pain in the ass to figure out which bit to use.
Torx are great since there is a limited number of sizes. But hex has metric and sae plus plenty of variance bolt to bolt.
Are they still covered by the patents that made them unattractive initially? Patent expiry could very well be the reason for their increased popularity.
Torx patent expired in 2011, so that's increasingly likely why it's taken off.
Edited to add: the "Torx Plus" design's patent expired in 2011, which was put in place in 1990 as the original Torx patent was expiring then. Some more nuance, but there ya go.
Wikipedia tells me the original Torx patent[1] was filed in the 1960s, so anything related should have long since expired. (There’s apparently also a “Torx Plus” patented[2] in the early 1990s around the time the original patent was expiring, but I don’t believe anybody deliberately chooses that one. Expired in 2011.)
[1] US 3,584,667, https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloa...
[2] US 5,207,132, https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloa...
My understanding is that the patents for Torx (and Torx Plus) have expired. They're an ISO standard, "hexalobular internal" (which is much more fun to say).
Philips used to be the "good" one because although it's a pretty bad design, everyone had it. Now that lots of people have torx drivers, they're better in pretty much every way. They're a lot harder to strip, they don't cam out as much etc.
Hmm, given the chassis changes, what are the odds the OLED screen can be dropped into existing Decks? It would probably hold back adoption but I'm unlikely to upgrade so soon anyway.
Valve says it cannot be installed in LCD models. A third party may offer a solution though.
There's already "DeckHD" after-market upgrade kits, a 1920x1200 OLED screen for $100.
Looks like a pain to install, though. Saw a time-lapse of the process on LTT and it looked like it involved removing just about every single screw and fastener in the entire device.
The DeckHD is still an IPS LCD, it just has better color coverage: https://deckhd.com/#specs
Steam is in the world of selling you games; Steam Decks being cheap/reparable/etc leads to more game sales.
And no jailbreaking required. I just wish I could hold one to see if my hands fit.
My awkward hands where DS, Switch, PS and Xbox controllers all give me cramps after around ten minutes of play time.
N64 not so. It's why I've always been a PC gamer.
I am mildly tempted to upgrade to this, it seems kinda weird that the OLED is the same resolution? Doesn't it? Maybe I am just out of touch. But I guess at least that means it won't have a performance impact.
As much as I love my steam deck, it kinda sucks to use after using my OLED Switch after a while. That screen is just beautiful (especially for Mario Wonder).
I have been looking for alternatives for a while now, with the Asus Rog Ally or the Legion Go but the lack of the 4 back controls being vertical have made both of those a no go for me.
Kinda wish it was beefed up a little bit (technically it looks like it is, the GPU is no longer listed as a range if you scroll down, but I am not sure why that is).
I just want official word that the drivers and everything still work on Windows. I assume it will
I just want official word that the drivers and everything still work on Windows.
I thought steam deck doesn't run windows ? You install windows on your steam deck ?
It runs a version of Arch Linux called SteamOS. I don't see a reason for Windows to run on it.
Some games have anti cheat that only work on Windows.
I thought Steam Deck used Proton, which allowed that stuff to mostly work without modification, even when running on Linux? (basically Wine+extras)
Anti-cheat is usually a kernel extension, I don't think you can do that in Proton.
Edit: yes, I know EAC is Linux supported, but you can't use proton to run a Windows kernel extension.
It seems to be up to the developer, as many anti-cheat support Linux if the developer wants it to.
Elden Ring uses Easy Anticheat which works fine in Proton, but Black Desert also uses EAC and it doesn't. Phantasy Star Online 2 works with Proton-GE and it used GameGuard and now Uncheater.
Here's a crowdsourced list of games with anticheat that do or do not work with Proton: https://www.protondb.com/explore?selectedFilters=antiCheat
Proton has some support for easy anti cheat. https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/02/proton-7-easy-anti-che...
Valve tries to make it easy to run a proton-compatible anti-cheat system which I believe is built in to steam libraries, but developers still have to choose to use it notably Microsoft seemed totally uninterested in using a proton compatible EAC for Halo Master Chief Collection last time I checked earlier this year. I read online it should have been easy to switch to the proton compatible EAC but some devs might not want to.
Halo: MCC specifically did get support for it a few months ago. But anti-cheat is still very dependent on the game.
That is nice to know thanks! I figured it would come eventually, I’m glad they added it.
Yeah you can dual boot Windows and there are official drivers for it.
It is the primary way I use my steam deck.
Not by default. But you absolutely can setup dual boot if you care to.
I've used stock steam deck since its release and love it to death; but it's super flexible for those who want to install other stuff or play with it :)
They deliberately said they don't want to change performance characteristics - which is pretty normal for console refreshes.
TBH I don't buy that argument, we are talking about PC games that have handled scaling for a very long time. This is standard if you are making PC games.
The Steam Deck really isn't a console in any traditional sense of the word. With there now being multiple devices like this out there, I don't think that argument works.
Valve wants the Steam Deck to fit in the Console space and be a easy gateway for less-techy people to play PC games.
But I have yet to see any indication from a development standpoint that it is.
PC games already automatically figure out what specs to use (or at least many do) so I am still struggling with this argument.
The argument completely falls apart when you have devices like the Asus Rog Ally or the Legion GO.
It also falls apart when, unless I am mistaken, SteamOS is open for anyone to use on other devices.
A single performance target means devs can fairly easily make tweaks and fixes to get "Verified Compatible" with Steam Deck which means more games work on ALL steam decks and its easier for casual consumers to just pick it up, buy some games, and have a good experience without knowing anything about PC gaming.
The Ally and the Legion GO (and other power constrained devices/devices with APUs) will benefit from some devs' performance and power optimizations for steam deck, and SteamOS based devices will benefit from fixes that work around issues with proton, both of which would be less likely to be addressed if there weren't an entire market of consumers you can access by getting that "Verified" badge.
The Ally and the Legion GO (and other power constrained devices/devices with APUs) will benefit from some devs' performance and power optimizations for steam deck, and SteamOS based devices will benefit from fixes that work around issues with proton, both of which would be less likely to be addressed if there weren't an entire market of consumers you can access by getting that "Verified" badge
IF that is the case, then the argument for why they would not increase the performance is not valid. They could have kept the same resolution but made it more powerful.
You can't say other devices will benefit and still make the argument that the steam deck had to stay at the same performance level. It's one or the other.
It's perfectly fine that Valve didn't want to upgrade it but I just don't buy the argument.
It's not one or the other because the concern isn't for the owners of the new Deck, its for the owners of the old one. Any meaningful increase in power will create a scenario where the new deck can play games that the old one cannot which would be confusing for consumers and would weaken developer incentives to create a good experience on the older deck.
When you factor in that the niche market of slightly more powerful $600+ handhelds is already served by 4+ different players I just don't see why Valve would need to jump into it at this point. The marginal benefit is not worth the risk of fracturing the deck community and burning early adopters.
Also I should have made it more clear, but only some patches targeting the steam deck will trickle up to higher performance devices. Some patches will be things like "low shadows look like crap but medium shadows are just barely too much for the deck, lets lower medium a bit so that it can run well". I only mention that some patches will help other mobile devices because in my view its a win-win for the entire market that Valve is committed to providing a common denominator.
On the contrary, I'd say that the Steam Deck has a lot in common with consoles, especially as modern consoles (PS5 and XSX) converge with PCs. The Steam Deck comes with a store integrated into the frontend, a verification process, and standardized controls and performance targets. It's basically a "pre-jailbroken" console. At the same time, the XBox Series S is showing a big reason why Valve might want to keep a single performance target for a longer than the normal constantly evolving hardware in PCs, and both it and the PS5 digital have removed any sort of physical distribution aspect to the definition of consoles.
especially as modern consoles (PS5 and XSX) converge with PCs.
What makes you think this is true?
Sure, but changing the resolution and changing the scaling means changing the performance metrics.
If one device is 1080p and one is 2160p, then even if both "render" at 1080 and one scales up to 2160 that is a change in performance. They don't want developers to have to test on multiple devices to see if it gets laggy on the one with the higher-res screen.
I’m still waiting for performance gen 2 to come out. I think that’s going to be the sweet spot
it seems kinda weird that the OLED is the same resolution?
Given the specifications of the rest of the device, I'm extremely happy the resolution remained the same! A bump to 1080p or similar would make games on the limited CPU/GPU that much harder to run at a reasonable frame rate while keeping a sharp image. This does not strike me as weird in the slightest - it's common sense to do here.
Not to mention how much hotter the device would run - you would be spending much more time at 15w+ in many titles, which is where the Deck starts to get hot/noisy fans spinning, and of course battery life drops.
I don't think it's as big a deal with Steam Deck using gamescope and system-wide FSR to upscale the image. It's already used if you plug a Deck into a 4k TV: the game defaults to running at 720p still.
With newer games having decoupled 3D render resolution and FSR2, a bump in output resolution no longer means an increase in CPU/GPU required. While allowing older games that aren't as resource intensive to run at 1080p.
For me it'd be a big deal as FSR1 looks awful and FSR2 looks bad - the whole "decoupling render resolution from output resolution" is a delusion for trying to push current GPUs to do things they are not really capable of doing. In 10 years we'll be looking back and make fun of how smeary, ghosty and blurry everything was.
trying to push current GPUs to do things they are not really capable of doing
Sure, but until we get better GPUs, it's still the better solution to not being able to play it at all. Especially with the Steam Deck being battery powered, so you can't just brute force it with higher frequencies or more hardware. Even this new Steam Deck doesn't include a better GPU.
Exactly. Maybe my eyes are not good enough, but I've literally never ever wished for more resolution - and especially not as an immediate and unavoidable tradeoff to power/battery/framerate/weight/heat/noise!
I do not need same resolution on my 7" device as on my 27" monitor :)
Seems like the back buttons are a worthy tradeoff if you're looking for a Windows-based handheld. The Ally is faster and has some nifty tricks but Windows holds it back, compared to the snappy, polished feel of the Deck.
For me it is not, I use my Steam Deck has a way to carry the games that I play with a controller on my PC or Console... mobile. I use an Elite Xbox Controller and rely heavily on the back buttons.
TBH I don't think Windows holds it back when once I am in the game (the part that matters) the experience is the same.
TBH I don't think Windows holds it back when once I am in the game (the part that matters)
Being able to instantaneously[1] pause and resume games on the Steam deck makes for a pretty great experience. The non-gaming parts also matter a lot in a portable gaming device.
1. In 3 seconds or less
I want a small, inexpensive gaming computer to connect to my TV and have been thinking about the Steam Deck or a mini pc like the Minisforum HX99G (Ryzen 9 6900HX). Would the two computers be roughly comparable?
I'm looking for something small because I don't have room for anything bigger. The Steam Deck is appealing because it doesn't seem very computer-y. What I want is a console that plays PC games. I've tried SteamLink between my desktop computer and AppleTV but it was a terrible experience.
Is there something better than the Steam Deck that isn't expensive (ie not more than $2000).
Valve may be working on a console based on SteamOS, so I'd wait and see.
Didn't they already do that a while back? I'm sure this time around would be different given their traction now.
Kind of, they did the Steam Link which was local streaming only. They also had the Steam Machines which were made by third parties. From what I recall the Steam Machines were overpriced for what they were and SteamOS + proton weren't nearly as good as they are now.
I think that rumor was mostly based on an old screenshot from a documentary and the korean filings for a new WiFi6e device, which turned out to be this deck revision, so I'd put less weight on those now.
Are there any other clues about them working on the console?
I did a quick search for this and didn't find much. Is it a serious rumor? I'd probably preorder if I could...
If you had a good experience with the steam link would you use it instead? Game streaming from desktop beats any small gaming computer.
Definitely would. I tried to use my PS5 controller linked to my Apple TV 4k and it was super laggy and looked bad.
Have you tried either Nvidia's or AMD's? I used moonlight on my phone for Nvidia it's free. You need fast wifi or Ethernet. I am planning on doing this for all my future purchases as a server to stream my media to all devices with as much performance as possible. I think this is a much better route than another dedicated device, unless you plan to use it outside a lot, and even then with good enough data and internet you can stream it from your computer.
There's an Xbone mount/clip that I really liked for $3ish (it's like $20 official) and they might have done the same with the PS4 or 5 designed just to add a BT/USB-C controller to your phone.
No, I haven't tried the NVidia or AMD version.
When I tried it (about a month ago) I was able to connect easily enough, but then the Steam interface went away for some reason and I was left staring at my (remote) desktop. I restarted Steam and started a game but the controller lag was noticeable and the framerate seemed low. It looked like a VNC connection. After about 30 minutes I gave up and started to look at Steam Decks and other very small computers.
There are a very wide variety of Windows based handhelds more powerful than the Steam Deck. AyaNeo seems to crank a new one out every 4 months!
I came across a google doc a while back where people were obsessively cataloging them. There are many which have come out in the last 2 years. You have your pick of options. They usually run from 400 - 1200.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1irg60f9qsZOkhp0cwOU7...
ETA: This list has gotten out of hand, lol
As someone who doesn't know much about this stuff and isn't looking for a project, that list is a bit nuts.
I wish they would summarize with some recommendations. Maybe a $500 recommendation, $1000 recommendation, $1500 recommendation, and the best overall.
lol. I don't think anyone has tested all of these to be able to make such a recommendation.
If you want one which also docks and is a serviceable PC, filter that list for stuff which can run Windows/Linux and also comes with a Ryzen 5/7. Bigger number is better CPU (you'll notice above the 7k Ryzen series, it gets an A on Switch emulation).
Take a look at the spread of prices and battery capacity and decide what candidates are important for you, and lastly check the reviews to see if any of them have quality/usability issues.
ETA: ETA PRIME on YouTube reviews basically everything that comes out.
Steam Deck has RDNA2 architecture which is pretty old now. They're probably getting rid off the last chips currently. I'd get at least Zen4/RDNA3 or, if you're in no hurry, even wait for what they release in the coming year. Especially if you want it to drive a high resolution screen...
In your opinion, are the mini pcs even worth considering? I kind of hesitate because I don't want another computer. I want a console experience that looks decent on a 55" tv (probably 1080p). The Steam Deck seems a little lo-res.
I have been really happy with my steam deck - I would strongly consider it if you don't mind that the hardware isn't cutting-edge. I rarely use it connected to a TV, so the relatively weak GPU might look worse than it does on the small screen, but otherwise it has been fantastic.
It "just works," like a console. Which would be another good option.
Why not get a minipc with the AMD Ryzen 7 7840HS or Ryzen 9 7940HS CPU? Both of those have an integrated Radeon 780M GPU which should be better than steamdeck. Price wise they will be come out similar. The HX99G is more expensive than something like the UM780 (7840HS)
No, the minisforum will be much more powerful. I think that CPU will be roughly twice as powerful and the GPU included (6600M) similarly roughly twice as powerful.
As the other commenter said, there are other handhelds, some getting better chips. But for your use case, you could also choose a small gaming pc or a laptop.
If you would get use out of a gaming laptop separate from attaching to your TV then that's pretty attractive choice because it does everything the mini PC does without that much more space.
What I want is a console that plays PC games.
Yeah, the Steam Deck is exactly that and I've been extremely happy with mine.
Just be aware of some caveats:
- It's not powerful enough for the most demanding games
- Some games have evil anti-cheat or is otherwise not supported by proton yet (unless you install Windows, which you totally can)
HX77G is a LOT cheaper than the HX99G ($650 barebones instead of $740 for basically identical performance).
I have been very happy with my Minisforum Venus UM790, though I use it as a mobile computer since I can just throw it into my backpack. It's been great to have access to AVX512 on the go.
The 6900HX has an RDNA2 GPU with 12xCU, compared to the Deck's RDNA2 with 8xCU. The Steam Deck is also limited by the power usage, the TDP is hard capped at 15W, while the 6900HX gets 45W TDP.
My issue with using the Deck as the benchmark is that it is designed for 720p. Even connected to a 4K TV, the Steam Deck by default will force the game to run at 720p, and upscale it to 4K.
If you're okay with a bit bigger, AM5 APUs are rumored to be coming out soon with BIOS updates that added support recently. I expect those to have RDNA3 like the laptop 7840HS and other chips. It'll be the first GPU update to desktop APUs since the 5600G. I'm excited and might build a new mITX to replace my own HTPC
SteamOS is a controller-first environment, which will give you that console feel. It's just so well done.
I can't speak to performance but I've heard game streaming works really well on the Deck.
I play a lot of "couch co-op" games with my kids while docked to a TV. Low requirements and very console-oriented. Compared to the Switch, here are some things that I bump into:
1. If you have 4 identical controllers, figuring out which is "1", "2", etc is hard. The Switch uses colors and LEDs to make this easy.
2. You need to walk over to wake it up. A controller can't wake it up if it's sleeping.
3. If you pair one of your identical controllers to something else, pairing it back is clunky since you don't know which one needs reconnecting.
But on the positive side, my young kids aren't put off by the leaky abstraction over PC gaming. They actually kind of marvel at the wide range the little device has but admit the advanced wizardry (game mods, desktop mode) can only be wielded effectively by Dad.
Valve: Install whatever you want from wherever you want - hardware, software, operating system.
And they provide you parts and schematics in case you need to repair/mod your device. Never thought I'd see a day when linux gaming would be as good as what I get via my steam deck these days.
Kudos to Valve for embracing such an open approach to gaming/portable devices in general.
And they provide you parts and schematics in case you need to repair/mod your device.
Where are the schematics? I was trying to do a repair on an unusually common failure and couldn't find anything.
I am not sure if schematics is the right word, but I meant things like: https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/SteamDeck/hardware and whatever they provide to likes of https://www.amazon.com/Joystick-Steam-Deck-Hall-Effect-Senso... to and steamdeck HD, to make hall effect joysticks and high resolution display mods for steamdeck.
Understandable, I was hoping there was some sort of board schematics or even block diagrams to aid in fixing blown up chips and other faults. I most often see failures on the main board and of course that's the part they don't sell you.
Out of curiosity, what chips do you see get blown out typically?
And are there any specific usage patterns that lead to more of these issues?
It most often seems to be the power management/charge/USB-C chip, with no particular pattern other than "playing a demanding game". Doesn't seem to matter whether plugged in or on battery, official charger or other USB-C charger or dock. I even had it happen to my own Steam Deck (while playing Minecraft of all things) which I sent into Valve and they replaced.
I haven't been able to investigate it too much but last I looked at the data sheet for that chip it seems like there's no way it should have a hole blown in it unless something was designed wrong.
While no board schematic there is quite good selection of guides hosted iFixit (Valve links you there from their website so it is the "official" source)
Given that PC gaming thrives on modding, it's only right that the most PC-like console gets it right.
If that were the natural outcome Xbox would’ve “gotten it right” since it was the most PC-like console before the Steam Deck.
The moddability is a deliberate strategy by Valve, and I don’t see it as an inevitable move for every PC-centered company, Microsoft being the prime counterexample.
The XBox One and PS4 are very PC-like as well. (Continuing with the PS5 and XBox Series).
But yes, Valve does seem to get what gamers want (other than games made by them)
Steam fees are their money maker, hardware is just a way to get more people buying stuff on Steam
And it absolutely worked on me.
Prior to having a Steam Deck, my overall video game time was fairly low since it took time to boot the PC and start everything up. With the SD, it's much easier to grab it and get a small session in, and I've purchased a number of games (and will even buy games on Steam at a higher price than elsewhere) because of the Deck. It's the price of convenience, but well worth it in my opinion.
And it's absolutely working! So far I've spent 566€ directly on Steam this year and my willingness to spend money on GOG or EGS has dropped dramatically considering what a seamless experience I get with Steam and the Steam Deck.
The already have most of online PC games sales through their platform and take a very healthy chunky cut off it, they don't have any financial incentive to close their platform. I also doubt they sell Steam deck at a loss like console companies do.
I also doubt they sell Steam deck at a loss like console companies do.
They (GabeN I believe) mentioned early on that it was "painful" to hit the Deck's price point. Unsure if this means sold at a loss or just a smaller-than-ideal profit.
Sorry, where are these schematics? I was not aware.
Valve isn’t taking some moral high ground here, they are just trying to commoditize hardware and OS platforms. It isn’t a new idea: https://gwern.net/complement
TSMC N6 is compatible with N7:
https://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFoundry/technology/pla...
Which is how they could pull the APU shrink off without breaking the bank.
And... Is the OLED not VRR? That was my #1 wish for the original Deck (with #2 being an OLED).
Judging from the Digital Foundry video[0], it appears to have a limited form of VRR that will sample the refresh rate closest to whatever you're limiting for (eg. 40fps -> 80hz). It's not a complete solution, but it should effectively "solve" frame timing issues if your framerate is high enough.
For what it's worth too, my experience gaming on Wayland has been great from a consistency perspective. Once you dial in settings that work, the only performance blips you can notice are related to shader compilation. 144hz feels like 144hz, which has not always been the case on Linux.
What are you running exactly? I haven't been able to get a 144hz + 60hz setup working with KDE on X. The main monitor just doesn't want to do 144hz, even if I disable the other one via xrandr. My 1070 Ti has me afraid of wayland because the nvidia driver already breaks something once a month.
Be afraid.
I tried to get my 3090 working in Wayland/KDE/Arch for about a month (after repeatedly running into the same issues on my 2060 laptop) and gave up.
AMD IGP output it is... and I just game on Windows instead. But even then, neutering the leftover bits of the Nvidia driver (which I need for CUDA) that keep breaking electron/chromium is making me pull my hair out. I still hold my breath opening VSCode, wondering if its going to freeze or not.
That doesn't sound normal, even for Linux. It almost sounds like the issue is somewhere else. My first guess would be a PSU that's unable to source the 3090's current draw under load, given everything else running on your system.
Try using a dedicated rail or another PSU if you have one.
Its definitely not. I have a V850 SFX Gold, a single 3090 FTW3 and a 7800X3D, and its rock solid in OCCT's variable load test, even when overclocked (and its not overclocked on linux).
I have literally all the exact same issues on my RTX 2060 Asus G14 laptop, like:
- GPU rendering broken in Wayland Chromium/Electron, and sometimes Firefox
- Occasional black screen on boot, from some kind of race condition.
- Unpredictable artifacting on the KDE desktop and some apps.
And I still get some of that when Nvidia DRM is disabled and I'm just using the 4900HS/7800X3D for display out. Completely disabling the Nvidia GPU fixes all of it, every single thing, but then I can't use CUDA.
Problems like these is one of the reason I run windows and WSL2...
I just bit the bullet and moved to Wayland. I've heard mixed things about people on 10-series hardware, but things work pretty well on my 3070Ti. My guess is that the drivers are slightly different across generations, and parity still hasn't been a priority. I decommissioned my 1050 back in my x11 days, I wish I could tell you how well it worked with my current setup.
I'm also running everything on NixOS, so assume there's a fair bit of fairy dust blessing the config. Besides enabling modeset and cudatoolkit manually though, I don't think there's much special about my software setup.
And... Is the OLED not VRR? That was my #1 wish for the original Deck (with #2 being an OLED)
According to LTT it is due to the physical connection. Basically the panel is the same as Switch OLED and thus uses whatever it uses which is MIPI and thus no VRR (need eDP for that). The hardware clearly supports it (just plug an external display with VRR support into the deck and it works)
https://youtu.be/uCVXqoVi6RE?t=179
Basically Valve doesn't do large enough volume to make proper custom display economical so they have to take whatever they can get.
The Switch is 1280x720 and the Steam Deck is 1280x800. They're not the same size.
As they have identical sub pixel layout they very likely come from the same factory.
I think one side of the mother glass has a few extra pixels that you can just not cut off and end up with the 80 pixels more on one direction?
If you start from a panel that cuts perfectly to 8K or 4K TV panels and you keep halving it won't go down evenly to 720p as it is not half of 1080p (1440p is half of 4K and 1080p is half of 1440p so they come out nicely without any wasted panel/pixels by cutting in half)
I was wondering where they sourced the OLED from.
Makes sense. The highest volume OLED with the right size is... the Switch's!
Basically Valve doesn't do large enough volume to make proper custom display economical so they have to take whatever they can get.
Yeah exactly. I see a lot of online complaints (mostly outside HN) about no new APU or no custom display, but the capital costs of doing either from scratch are just hilariously high.
I want a Steamdeck with four Zen4c cores and 16 CUs.
More CUs the better. The wider it is, the slower it can run.
But I don't think that's gonna happen until Zen 5, and only if we're lucky and AMD restarts the Van Gogh successors they canceled[1].
1: https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryzen-6000-notebook-roadmap-...
VRR would help so much for when it can't quite hit framerate.
Yeah. Its basically free performance, and free power savings, and also makes the whole configuration process less fiddly.
Those are all things you particularly want on the Deck.
The upgrade to 90 Hertz is really good for a non-obvious reason: In the Steam Deck userbase, the "Golden 40", playing games at 40fps and the screen at 40 hertz, is a pretty well-liked trick for getting the frame time right in between 30 and 60fps at 25ms while "only" needing power to render 10 more frames per second than 30, making for a much better experience than 30.
The only problem with this is if a frame is slightly late at 40 hertz, you're waiting the full 25 ms for the next one instead of 16.6ms at 60hz. Being able to run the screen at 80 hz for 40fps games cuts that stutter time on a missed frame in half to 12.5ms, and will make a huge difference!
People consider 40fps the sweet spot?
Yeah, for games that don't quite run at 60fps. You set the screen to 40 hertz, the difference between 30 and 40 is HUGE latency and general smoothness wise.
Maybe for battery.
There's a weird cult-like attitude around 40fps that I've noticed. Personally I run everything at the normal 60hz and almost everything I play runs fine, even at the higher resolution (1920x1200) of my external monitor. Counter-Strike 2 runs horribly and Baldur's Gate 3 was sub-60, but mostly I don't play anything that demanding (mostly indie, lots of 2D). It might matter more if you play all the new AAA titles that come out.
On the Deck, yes.
It's a bit better than 30 while saves battery compare to 60
I limit Elden Ring to 35FPS to avoid stuttering and it basically feels as smooth as 60FPS on the XBox Series S. As long as you get at least ~30FPS the framerate doesn't matter as much as framerate stability.
So does the Steam Deck not support VRR for the onboard display? I see articles saying support was added for external displays, but it’s not clear whether the onboard one has it. If it does, then it seems like it shouldn't be a problem for a frame to be slightly late.
Edit: I read some other comments that explain the situation. It sounds like there is no VRR for the internal display unfortunately.
No, it sadly doesn't do VRR and neither does this new one. According to the LTT video[0], it's because of the internal connector that the internal display is attatched with, because external VRR screens do work. They speculate that valve were just limited by what is available on the market because they are not quite shipping enough units yet to warrant fully custom designs / orders. Apparently there are hints towards this being the same supplier that also supplies the Switch OLED's screen.
Bloomberg says the supplier is Samsung.[0] Not entirely surprising because Sony is somewhat of a competitor and that only leaves LG who is not nearly as good at mobile oled which is one of Samsung's largest markets. This said I know eg. Apple uses multiple display suppliers for the iphone 14/15 base model so it could be the same here.
[0]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-04/nintendo-...
The display uses a mipi interface instead of a edp. This is because the screen isn’t completely custom and likely used one from a manufacturer similar to the switch oled which also uses a mipi display.
If valve sold more units it might justify a completely custom solution but this is still way better than what people had to do to get a better screen before.
A bit disappointing that you cannot purchase just the new OLED screen and replace it in the LCD model, considering the dimensions are the same.
I wonder what the true limiting factor for this is? I'd love to upgrade, but ~$500 feels like a little too much for the usage I currently get out of my Deck.
Also with the MMC option gone (so the PCB area can be reclaimed), thicker fans and cooling solution, different internal size battery and screen, I wonder if the entire mainboard has been redesigned.
eMMC just slots into the m2 slot. There is no area to be reclaimed
Selling the unit as a whole almost certainly is a loss for them, but they make money by having people buying games from them. Selling parts like that would be unlikely to have a similar effect, so they might not be able to sell it at a price point that makes sense.
$549 is probably a break even price. It's a great value nonetheless, but kind of too high to be at a loss.
The screen is thinner and the battery is larger -- it's also, as others have said, a larger screen. The bezels are smaller.
The dimension of the screens are not the same, though.
deckhd [1] creators (third-party 1200p screen for deck) said it's not possible, as it will require modifying main board (something about voltage regulation, if i recall correctly)
With a lot of changes that probably can't be retrofit into a launch Deck, I see this as trying to attract new customers instead of old ones. Probably worth waiting on the next release with an actual spec bump in a few more years.
I don't think the dimensions are the same. Resolution is, but LCD screen size says 7", OLED says 7.4"
This item is not available in your country
I'm in the US, so that seems kinda strange.
I'm in the US, so that seems kinda strange.
I love this comment :-) So much to appreciate here.
As someone who sees the "not available in your country" quite often, I'm delighted with this mistake (it must be a mistake).
There is of course a lot of US-centrism and exceptionalism out there, but GP could just more benignly be noting that Valve is an American company, so it really would be strange for them to not launch in the US as part of the first cohort.
Available November 16 at 10am Pacific
Also being in the US, I do not see that message, I only see the Nov 16th release date.
I'm getting that same message, but am in Australia.
From memory it's actually not available here, due to our government level consumer protection people not putting up with Valve's bullshit a few years ago.
I'm in the U.S. and am getting the Available on Nov 16 button, but worth noting this note at the bottom of the Deck homepage:
Steam Deck Limited Edition is an experiment for our team, and we were only able to make a small quantity. That said, we hope this is a successful experiment and customers are excited – if we see there is a large demand for this kind of product, we will definitely continue to explore more colorways in the future.
Does anybody here have experience using a Deck booted into Windows with VR headset connected for playing Beat Saber? How well does it work for this purpose? Not finding too much info on that particular setup online.
This revision appears to fix my main gripes with the original model so I’d like to buy one, but if I could use it as an ultraportable Beat Saber machine it’d make the purchase more justifiable. While my Quest 2 can technically run Beat Saber natively, the Steam version is vastly more mod-friendly and PCs generally don’t choke as badly on complex custom maps as the middling smartphone hardware in the Quest 2 does.
i don’t understand why you want a portable beat saber setup that requires hauling around an entire VR setup + a steam deck + all of the peripherals that requires? imo you might as well buy a little laptop with a proper video card if you’re going that route. the deck’s video capabilities aren’t intended to drive VR or run windows, you’ll almost certainly have issues of a million varieties.
Mainly, it’s about maximizing usage of my devices.
At home most gaming (including Beat Saber) is done on a nice custom tower that outguns any reasonably priced gaming laptop, meaning that if I bought a gaming laptop it’d only get used when traveling and would collect dust the rest of the time. Unless of course I sell the desktop and go laptop-exclusive for games, but that comes with some notable tradeoffs (fan noise and longevity primarily).
The Deck’s form factor makes it attractive for at-home use scenarios that a desktop and laptop don’t fit as well, and a such has a better chance of getting consistent usage compared to a laptop.
Could you not just run Best Saber on a Quest?
It’s possible, but as noted in my other comment, the Quest version is notoriously unfriendly to modding and can chug with more complex custom maps due to weak hardware, which is problematic because I play modded/custom exclusively.
My understanding is that Windows is very buggy to boot into.
Steam deck runs beat saber very poorly
I was about to cancel my order for a Playstation Portal after seeing this. Considering a bit further though, I really think remote play is the future as long as you aren't concerned with using the device on the go. My PS5 can handle games way better than a Steam Deck, the device is lighter, and the battery lasts significantly longer. Still a bit torn though, the Steam Deck appeals to the side of me that loves gadgets. It's a tough call.
The Portal can only stream games over your local network, though, right? I think the SD would be a better use of money because it offers the ability to play outside for the home but it's definitely personal preference.
While the different capabilities definitely account for this, there is a big price gap with the Portal only being $200
I believe you can stream to the Portal from anywhere with a solid WIFI connection. Does not necessarily need to be the same local network.
You can use Chiaki[0] to stream PS5 games to your Deck, best of both worlds =)
why don't have both? SD for indie games such as Factorio/Stardew Valley etc. and PSPo for AAA Sony exclusive games!
US and Canada only.. guess it's more wait time for me.
Why isn’t the Limited Edition Steam Deck OLED available in my region? > Steam Deck Limited Edition is an experiment for our team, and we were only able to make a small quantity. That said, we hope this is a successful experiment and customers are excited – if we see there is a large demand for this kind of product, we will definitely continue to explore more colorways in the future.
Please continue Valve
As far as I can tell, there’s a “normal” OLED Deck, which is (or will shortly be) available in the full complement of countries (not including my current place of residence...), and the limited edition with a transparent case, which is NA only. So if you only want the electronics upgrade, you can probably get one.
Yes, just came to the same conclusion after reading more!
I can ship one out to you if you'd like.
Thank you. I will be reaching out if I decide to go for one. BUT I think the limitation actually applies only to the 1TB limited edition (with different colorway). So the 512GB OLED should be normally available as I've seen some people point out!
I’m a first gen deck owner and am constantly impressed by the quality of the product. The hardware is good, more than good enough, but the fact that it is running windows games mostly seemlessly is incredible. Yes, I know wine has been around forever, but with the deck you barely even notice that you’re running through a compatibility layer. Performance and battery life in all but the last few years of AAA games is also great. The improvements here are marginal, but it’s great to see them making smart, incremental updates.
I’d love to see how the market would react to a deck in a console form factor, with similar input options to the deck (pad plus touchpads) and an APU comparable to modern consoles.
I’d love to see how the market would react to a deck in a console form factor,
They already tried this with Steam Machines and that didn't end well.
with similar input options to the deck (pad plus touchpads) and an APU comparable to modern consoles.
There's the Steam Controller, but maybe they'll try something new with analog sticks.
They already tried this with Steam Machines and that didn't end well.
They tried this in 2014 when Steam OS was immature and Proton didn't even exist (Steam Machines were relying on Linux Ports at time). Also, if I record well, we didn't had a Steam Machine 100% done by valve, only third-parties.
I bet that the market reaction would be very different today with first-party steam machines running Proton,
The Steam Controller was killed off, and IIRC there was a patent infringement issue with the paddles on the back. I'd love to see a redesigned Steam Controller based on the Deck's controls. I play my Deck almost exclusively docked, but your average controller packs less functionality than the Deck's built-in controls, so it would be neat to not have to compromise.
There was Steambox, which was their bid to get into the console PC gaming tower market. We got SteamOS out of that, but the product launch itself didn't go so great.
As a Ally user, still not enough to get me to switch but I love the competition that Steam ignited with the handheld PC gaming market. Ally, Legion Go, Steamdeck, Ayaneo Kun, etc. A lot of great devices on the market.
I've played more PC games now than I have in the last 10 years.
Do the various other handheld PC’s tend to run Windows or Linux with proton?
Ally and Legion Go run Windows
No they only run the niche operating system called Windows.
Windows. They have a sub-par user experience because of that compared to the Steam Deck. Windows just doesn't work that well on small screens like these, and the custom UIs they have are the usual bloatware you find in "gaming" products.
Can anyone comment on how using OLED might affect total power consumption?
Edit:
Steam Deck OLED has 30-50% more battery life. We fit a bigger battery into the case, and the OLED display draws less power.
My understanding of OLED vs LCD displays is that LCDs are more consistent in power draw, but OLEDs draw less power with darker pictures, but more power with brighter images. So it depends on the brightness and the colors in the scene.
so play zelda mostly in the underground. got it.
Apparently there’s also a die shrink on the SoC, which is otherwise the same but should draw less power.
From the link:
We fit a bigger battery into the case, and the OLED display draws less power.
Really tempted to replace my current Steam Deck with one. Got one in January and I've put 215 hours on it so far. It's a fantastic piece of kit and the improvements sound like they could be worth the expense.
(Wrote some thoughts about it after six months of ownership here: https://burakku.com/blog/steam-deck-six-month-update/ )
The one thing that I am wondering though is if the Wi-Fi 6E alone can boost download speeds. Seemed to me like the poor download speeds were also because of the storage bottlenecking. Although the Wi-Fi is definitely the weakest part of the current Steam Deck hardware, being quite unreliable at times, so any improvements on that front are welcome.
I have the 512GB model of the original Steam Deck and have put hundreds of hours in it as well. I'm personally waiting for the true successor to the Steam Deck. This is simply a refresh.
Yeah, I feel like there needs to be language to describe new versions like this:
* If you're going to buy one for the first time, the new one is the one to get.
* It's worth replacing your old one.
This is probably not worth replacing your old Steam Deck (unless you have a lot of money to throw around.) But it's really nice for people who haven't bought one until now.
because of the storage bottlenecking
Higher end models come with an NVMe SSD. No way that’s slow.
Well, over half of my storage is on microSD anyways. But even with a wired connection over a USB-C dock, the download speeds were not that stellar. If Wi-Fi is 13 MB/s, then wired was maybe like 40? This is on a 1000 Mb/s connection.
How does OLED make sense for the steam deck when to my knowledge Linux does not support HDR?
I wish I could install Linux on my laptop, but without HDR what's the point!
Valve has that side, too: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Valve-HDR-Linux-Gaming-Begins
SteamOS supports HDR, VRR and Raytracing.
Joshua Ashton (Valve Developer) gave a talk called "Rainbow Frogs: HDR + Color Management in Gamescope/SteamOS" at XDC this year where he explained how they improved colour management on Linux when other people have so far failed.
https://www.youtube.com/live/Gg4eSAP1uc4?feature=shared&t=40...
Melissa Wen (Igalia) talked more about how they're gonna try and upstream the work, but there are lots of moving upstream parts and they all move very slowly in "The rainbow treasure map: advanced color management on Linux with AMD/Steam Deck"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg4eSAP1uc4&t=4010s
There is also a talk by Friedrich Vock called "Improving the World's Slowest Raytracer" about how they're slowly making RT viable on Linux.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg4eSAP1uc4&t=27361s
Overall, a very interesting set of talks for anybody interested in Linux gaming.
It is not as a simple as "Linux does not support HDR".
The kernel's graphics API does expose functionality to use HDR. What is not there (yet) is Xorg and Wayland compositors using that functionality as well as programs written to target those being able to use whatever HDR Xorg/Wayland functionality would expose. For gaming Wine also lacks HDR support.
Valve is bypassing the above by using their own Wayland compositor (gamescope) which is designed to run X11 applications (mainly Wine/Proton) via XWayland and -IIRC- they hacked in a way to take over XWayland's output to force HDR so that Windows games running under Proton using Windows' HDR APIs will work under gamescope.
The reason they can do that is because they can modify and ship the entire stack, but it its otherwise a very gaming-oriented gamescope-specific hack (you can't use the same functionality to get a window with HDR content under an otherwise "SDR" desktop).
FWIW if you do have an HDR monitor (and perhaps an AMD GPU, not sure if this is a requirement) you should be able to use it on your own PC to run Windows games with HDR support - you'll just be limited to running them in fullscreen mode in a separate virtual terminal (i mean those you switch with the Ctrl+Alt+F<n> keys). I haven't tried it myself though because i'm using my own gamescope fork with some modifications i made and my code is a couple of years behind (long before the HDR stuff were added). Also while i technically have an HDR monitor, it isn't basically a somewhat brighter SDR monitor, not true HDR.
Considering how Valve has managed to turn the Linux gaming world upside down with Proton, I imagine they can figure out HDR too.
Lost me when I realized the resolution is the same.
1080p is a minimum in 2023
Yes. That is why no one has purchased a Switch since the beginning of the year.
If you want bigger numbers i believe there are windows handhelds available now.
The rest of us who want something that just works might get a steam deck.
Interesting... how come Linux just works and Windows is iffy in the handheld gaming space?
Not for a small screen like the steam deck. LTT complained 1080p made things way too small on Asus ROG Ally handheld while also hurting performance.
Based on what assumptions? The Deck struggles enough to get decent FPS on many titles without careful tweaking - how do you think it's going to do if it has to push twice the number of pixels.
What’s the weight of the new models?
The increased battery capacity sounds good, but I wonder how does it affect the handheld’s weight - which is perhaps just as important for comfort.
It's actually ~20g lighter.
~640 grams, compared to ~669 grams for the previous model
Lighter by a few tens of grams.
I actually use my Deck almost exclusively in docked mode. If you just want a low-cost alternative to a PC for gaming, consider picking up one of the now-discounted LCD models.
I thought I would use mine docked more than I do, but the hardware shows its weaknesses when you try to drive too many more pixels than the built-in display.
I found my TV (not purchased with gaming in mind) adds so much latency that even as a non-gamer I found it unusable.
A minor gripe; overall the Steam Deck blew me away with its capabilities, ease of use, and attention to detail.
Agree, though mainly just for newer AAA games. For example, Hogwart's Legacy (which has breathtakingly good graphics on capable machines) on a docked Steam Deck is much worse than my top-of-the-line Linux AMD rig. I wouldn't expect a $500 handheld to match a $3,000 desktop of course, but I thought it worth mentioning.
If you play games like Shredder's Revenge or Stardew Valley, the graphics will be identical. But if you play AAA games and you care about graphics, you might want something more powerful.
That said, the Steam Deck works perfectly as a remote console. I.e. docked to my TV, and then "stream" the game from the gaming rig. Nvidia Shield is also a great device for that and a big cheaper if you never plan to undock it, but being able to play less demanding games locally is a big feature that makes the Deck worth it IMHO.
How important is storage space on this device? Is 512GB or 1TB worth waiting for?
Between SD cards and M.2 drive upgrades being pretty painless, you can start small and upgrade.
I think it just depends on the games you play. Check to see how much space they'll use. Personally, I don't play a lot of "AAA" type games, I play more indie games, so 256GB has more than enough space for me. You can always upgrade the SSD or use a microSD card.
Depends on what you do, play, consider doing. I'm using it as my PC and love more storage. Once I finally buy a NAS I would care less.
256G+512G SD card and both are around 90% full.
It'll never happen but I'd love if Valve could wack an M1 / similar apple chip on one of these
Why? The AMD chip they're using has comparable performance-per-watt to the M1, and I'm not sure Proton knows how to run games on an ARM processor.
Doubt an ARM chip would work well with Valve's approach of using Proton (Wine) to run the x86 binaries. And also not sure if the iGPU really measures up to RDNA (since Apple doesn't build their chips for gaming.)
I love everything about the Steam Deck except 1 thing.
I love that its Linux based, and that you can doc it and turn it into a real PC. The interface is polished and its fast. And it's Steam, so I have all my games!
The one thing - I can't play it for more than an hour without getting hand cramps. The ergonomics just aren't very good for me.
I play games all day for my job, and I know I can play an xbox controller or a ps5 controller for 8 hours straight without problems.
Lucky, because its a Steam Deck, I can plug any controller I want into it.
There are some aftermarket attachments that supposedly help with this. I haven't tried any of them myself, but I get the same problem as you and I will probably try some out next week.
Despite the bigger overall size, the buttons on the Steam Deck aren't bigger than the buttons on a Nintendo Switch joy-con. That's why I like the Asus Ally more for having buttons that aren't too small for my big hands.
Trade-off is no space for the touchpads
"This item is not available in your country"
The country in question is Switzerland, probably the richest country in Europe, where many people would have bought it on spot.
Regional restrictions are so stupid.
If it makes you feel better, it's not available in any country yet.
But regional restrictions aren't really "stupid" they are because doing business globally is hard to do.
Maybe join the EU, that would make it easier for them because the regulations would be the same!
* Exclusive startup movie
Guys, c'mon, I know that you have to have a longer bullet point list for the premium, more expensive option, but you're making your actual advantages sound stupid by including this one.
Hey, the filmmakers need there work listed as well!
Pretty sure you can mod in any startup movie of your choice these days. The startup movies just seem to be a way to get me to waste steam points I don't have any use for on some variety of startup visual without any effort. You're not wrong.
This looks like a fantastic upgrade. Here's a info dump of all the differences between this and the LCD one that I could find:
64 and 512GB LED models are dead
Wi-Fi 6E
10Whr more battery
it's a larger display. 7.4" vs 7"
6nm APU vs 7nm
256GB LCD now $399 (INSANE price)
30-50% more battery
screen resolution is the same
just OLED + HDR
1000 nits peak/600 typical vs 400 typical
90hz refresh rate
"high performance touch"
dual ambient light sensors
640 grams vs 669 grams
deck dock now $20 less
limited edition color way available too
This is just copy-paste from the steamdeck site:
GENERAL
Updated APU to 6 nm for better efficiency
Updated memory to 6400 MT/s, improving latency and power management
Increased thermal module thickness and performance
Increased active area to 7.4" (from 7.0")
UPDATED DISPLAY
Updated refresh rate to 90Hz (from 60Hz)
Updated peak brightness to 1000 nits
Updated touchscreen polling rate to 180Hz, improved latency and accuracy
Updated WiFi / Bluetooth module
Added support for WiFi 6E
Added support for Bluetooth 5.3, supporting newer codecs such as aptX HD and aptX low-latency
Added third antenna near the top of the device for better Bluetooth performance, including when docked
Added support for wake from Bluetooth controllers
AUDIO
Improved bass response for an overall flatter sound profile
Added support for using onboard microphone array simultaneously with the 3.5mm headphones connector
CONTROLS
Adjusted analog stick top material and shape for increased grip and dust build-up resistance
Adjusted analog stick post material to improve interaction feel with front cover and reduce wear
Improved reliability of analog stick touch detection
Improved responsiveness and tactility of shoulder buttons switch mechanism
Adjusted D-pad snap ratio and diagonal interactions
Redesigned trackpad for improved fidelity and edge detection
Greatly improved trackpad haptics feel and precision
POWER
Improved battery capacity from 40Wh to 50Wh
Improved battery chemistry for faster charging, from 20% to 80% in as little as 45 minutes
Changed charging LED to WRGB
Added support for waking up from initial unboxing by long-pressing power button instead of requiring AC power
Adjusted power supply cable length from 1.5m to 2.5m
Added logo to power supply
FRAME Reduced total system weight to ~640g, or ~5% less than Steam Deck
Rear cover screws now thread into metal
Adjusted rear cover screw heads to Torx™, as well as other materials and geometry tweaks on the heads to reduce stripping risk
Lowered number of screw types throughout system
Reduced step count required for common repairs
Improved bumper switch mechanism drop reliability
Moved bumper switch to joystick board for easier repair
Improved display repair/replacement to not require taking rear cover off
SOFTWARE
Greatly improved memory power management firmware
Added preliminary support for open-source BIOS and EC firmware
Improved resume time by roughly 30%
Damn I just purchased a 256 GB steam deck a month ago :(
You should consider asking the support for partial refund.
Though a month might be stretching it.
Looks fantastic. I wish Valve would take another go at steam controller and steam link.
I have a Steam Deck, Steam Link and the Steam Controller (it does work) among other controllers. The ability to use any controller is awesome (Wireless DualSense is my fav RN). Steam Controller itself wasn't all that great, and I like the . And Steam Controller with a Dock acts as Link (unless I'm missing some other functionality).
HN folks, I feel a FOMO for this OLED version because it's just so cool, but I already own a Deck. Would you say there would be an OLED version again, even if limited in stock, in the future?
It looks like the OLED version is replacing the LCD one for the 512/1TB models. It's just the specific colourway that's limited.
I'm in a similar boat - I'm gonna keep my LCD 512GB Steam Deck.
Is the APU update notable? From 7nm to 6nm process
Performance isn't really better but RAM speeds are a bit better which boosts things a little. Digital foundry says it runs cooler and quieter. It does have better battery life but it also has a larger battery and more efficient screen.
That’s sexy. Too bad I bought one this year. And it’s an amazing device.
Very excited for future hardware from Valve. Especially excited for the rumored VR headset that'll double as a set-top-box for your TV (at least that's what I've heard).
Interestingly, the processors changed slightly. Slightly smaller dies and GPU efficiency cores. But it seems like there are no real performance gains.
OLED version: 6 nm AMD APU CPU: Zen 2 4c/8t, 2.4-3.5GHz (up to 448 GFlops FP32) GPU: 8 RDNA 2 CUs, 1.6GHz (1.6 TFlops FP32) APU power: 4-15W
LCD (old) version: 7 nm AMD APU CPU: Zen 2 4c/8t, 2.4-3.5GHz (up to 448 GFlops FP32) GPU: 8 RDNA 2 CUs, 1.0-1.6GHz (up to 1.6 TFlops FP32) APU power: 4-15W
mine might have to become a hand-me-down and make this my christmas present...
I think this might be an early step into the concept of people building portable devices like they build custom PCs and I love it.
at what voltage do devices like this tend to operate? I was trying to estimate the ah of the batteries so I could then be frustrated at how they pack the cells in there.
I hope they include a proper rumble pack this time, the haptic trackpad things were a little anemic. Very happy with it otherwise though.
I'm super tempted by it but I just bought my Steam Deck this year. I love it and have played almost daily (all handhold) and I've got a vast backlog of games to play (that will play well on the deck).
Resolution not changing is both a pro and a con but more-so a pro I think. OLED would be really nice as would the battery life but I don't need it.... OTOH that special edition looks really cool...
DDR speed bump, from 5500MHz to 6400MHz. Some games are definitely gonna run faster.
FYI 2023 is the year of the linux desktop. Its going to be about 4 years before anyone noticed that was it:
Microsoft flops on Win 11, anti-consumer features force a few casual users to try Linux Desktop again. They find Linux Desktop is robust AF, way less downtime than Windows their constant updates and their pestering. They shout the news from the roof: "The future is here"
Steam Deck making it mainstream. More resources, more users, high quality linux rather than cheap chromebooks/raspi. (Love my raspi thou)
Linux desktop being so solid. Fedora take my breath away. I cannot believe this is Linux. I can't believe Linux is literally better than Windows.
Well I'm just happy there will be more second hand units on the market to buy
Pretty underwhelming sales page, they should probably showcase the screen more?
Edit: Nevermind, the link in the HN post is not the actual landing page.
Wow! This seems like a really good upgrade just for that screen and longer battery life. Time to finally buy the SD to play that ever-increasing backlog of games in my Steam catalog.
Damn, I wish they did an APU upgrade as well (I mean generation upgrade, not just node)...
My biggest complaint about my Steam Deck is the contrast ratio on the LCD screen. The backlight bleed bothers me more than it should, but I think I've gotten used to LCDs with very good contrast ratios over the last ten years. I'm considering upgrading, but wondering how much my current 512GB would sell for.
As a related aside: does anyone know of any companies or processes by which one can get low volume (think prototyping volume, i.e., single digit quantity orders) custom OLED screens? Bonus points if the OLEDs are able to be custom laser cut (the same process as the "hole punches" that are in smartphone screens).
Good, good. I have two gaming desktops and don't need it. What I need is something like the Legion Go. Not for gaming, mind you. Reading. A laptop is too big, a phone too small. I think it hits the spot real nice and people managed to get Linux working on it right away, which was to be expected. I wonder how much it weighs without the joypads
Tested review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfoLRmKwnSI
Gotta love that they know how people tinker with their devices:
Rear cover screws now thread into metal
Adjusted rear cover screw heads to Torx™, as well as other materials and geometry tweaks on the heads to reduce stripping risk
Lowered number of screw types throughout system
Reduced step count required for common repairs
Improved bumper switch mechanism drop reliability
Moved bumper switch to joystick board for easier repair
Improved display repair/replacement to not require taking rear cover off