johnwalkr
I recently bought a 2017 Ford Focus RS, partly because it has few annoyances. I couldn't really find anything else with nice specs for actually driving but without a million features I don't want. No dings except for seatbelt and obstacles behind you when reversing. It only came with a 6 speed manual, has physical buttons for climate control, and most settings related to driving have a button. Some basic info screens and a few rarely-used settings are accessed using a small display and steering wheel buttons. No driver assist aside from non-adaptive cruise control, traction/stability control, backup camera and backup sensors.

It has a touch screen but it's strictly used for navigation and audio settings, but there are physical buttons for controlling audio and a knob for volume. It has carplay. I virtually never touch the screen because I set up music and maps on my phone before I get in the car. I would probably never buy a car without carplay/android auto.

gilbetron
We have a 2004 Toyota Tacoma that blows the minds of "kids" (anyone under 30) that get in it. Everything is manual (Except the transmission) as it was a base model. They are amused by rolling the windows up and down, manually locking and unlocking, and the simplicity of the radio.

Years ago when we got it (and a Toyota Matrix that we since sold) we had a friend that was a calibration engineer for various automotive companies, and told him we just wanted something that works and moves us around safely. He told us, "Toyota; they are basically automotive appliances". He was 100% correct.

I do love some of the new features of our newer cars, like the backup camera with radar alerts, the ability to see the the current speed limit on the speedometer, the HUD that displays some basic info, and bluetooth. But most of it I hate, like all the beeping and alerting and the stupid, dreadful tablet interfaces. I was pleased to see my sister's new car had a touchscreen, but in the center console you could completely control it using a spinner and set of buttons. So I'm hopeful car companies are swinging the other way on UX.

kleiba
So interesting to come to hacker news and see so many comments about how people prefer analog features over digital. Clearly, something has gone badly wrong with IT in the automotive field. Of course, it is often about cost savings. But I suppose not the least reason is also management decisions to have more IT in the car because that's what the competition does.

It just needs to look impressive when a potential buyers first checks out the car with cash in their pocket. Whether it makes sense in the long term everyday usage is of secondary concern.

nikanj
The people who have to drive these cars have absolutely no power to change the design. The people with actual power to change the design don't drive Kias, they ride either expensive carbon-fibre bicycles or a German-made luxury car
varispeed
Cars were "done" in around 2010. From there managers think if they don't add more bells and whistles, they will become irrelevant etc.

When I was looking to buy a car, basically anything 2016 onwards is unbearable. Touchscreens etc. If I want to use an app, I can use a phone.

Cars are going the path of the phones - it's going to be an "entertainment" centre that happens to be able to move.

Shame.

fergie
I'm surprised they didn't say anything about the lack of real buttons, knobs and stalks...
Zecc
Off-topic, I do apologize knowing this isn't Reddit: but I came to see if anyone mentioned https://xkcd.com/37/ and I left disappointed.
janandonly
I’m a long time Toyota driver. My Aygo, one of the smallest cars on the road, would drive about 20km per Litre, or 47 miles per Gallon (us)!

Now I’m driving a Toyota RAV4, which drives about 25MPg or 11 km/l. It’s a great car from ‘99 I think.

The only maintenance costs I ever had where a new AC pump which set me back about €1000. Worth it this summer.

solatic
To everyone in this thread complaining about electronics in cars... consider buying a motorcycle.

No entertainment system. Low-tech. Individual styling that has persisted since long after every car turned into a variant of the aerobubble. Put in the key, turn it on, and go.

Leave the car for rainy days, grocery trips, and ferrying your kids, and ride a motorcycle the rest of the time (i.e. commuting to work).

barbs
Even more low-tech - a bicycle, although admittedly not an easy replacement for a lot of car trips in many places around the world. Perhaps an ebike?
solatic
Motorcycles and cars are both capable of highway speeds, so they're easier to envision as a replacement when the benefit of cars (weather protection, passenger/cargo space) are irrelevant. Ebikes make great sense for shorter distance travel (i.e. in cities) when sufficient bicycle infrastructure is available (bike lanes and secure parking), but if neither of those are true in the circumstances, it's difficult to convince people to "give up" their cars.
buro9
There seems to be a lot of people turning off what should be considered basic safety features, or arguing against seatbelt alarms.

Most of these features do come with nags and messages, modern cars have those to encourage your behaviour towards being safe by default. That they annoy incessantly could reflect a lack of change towards that safe behaviour.

I'm no fan of internet connected software in cars, bitrot of software in cars (and the fact that computing in them will likely only be good in the 5y range whilst the car might survive in the 20y range), there is a lot to legitimately dislike... but so many messages in this thread seem very vitriolic against the safety features that, to me, seem entirely reasonable.

jollyllama
The only sincere resolution to this would be making it all opt-out.
prmoustache
> I don't even want my car to go fast anymore because I'm too sleep deprived to enjoy the experience anyway

Hmmm maybe one shouldn't drive a car at all if in a sleep deprived state. This is so irresponsible.

lkey
You must be unfamiliar with the realities of raising young children
prmoustache
I have 2 daughters, I know that.

However:

1. it wouldn't have come to my mind to drive my kids to school.

2. I choose not to drive and take public transport (where I can usually finish the night) or cycle[1] when I am tired.

Saying you are driving while being sleepy is pretty much the same as driving under influence. I wouldn't do that, would you?

[1] which immediately wakes you up thanks to the physical activity and cold breeze in your face.

hermitcrab
I hired a Kia Sorrento SUV on a recent trip to Florida. Quite a lot of bing-bings when you did anything, but it wasn't too bad. What surprised me was that it had various high-tech doodads (collision warning, would put the brakes on if it thought you were going to hit something etc) but no high-vis/fog lights on the front or back. This is a serious ommission when you are in a Florida rain storm. Also I find it odd that US cars often have the same colour indicators as brake lights.
samtho
> Also I find it odd that US cars often have the same colour indicators as brake lights.

I have lived in the US my whole life and I hate this. In a world where you have to disassemble the trunk interior to change a bulb, burned out one’s often go unfixed. It’s a constant game of, “is that a left blinker or someone who’s right brake light is out and they are just pumping their breaks?”

knigge111
Sorry but I laughed my ass of!
danw1979
> DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING!

> Six obnoxiously loud gong-like sounds reverberate through the interior of your car upon pressing the 'start/stop engine' button.

I stopped reading at this point because I knew he was driving a Kia.

I rented one over the summer and those inexplicable dings on startup made me want to scream. And also that the steering wheel obscured the speedometer. I will never own one.

My own Toyota beeps once to let me know it’s in “Ready” mode and that’s it. It’s got a clear dash, nice controls and I am going to drive it until it is unserviceable.

Twisell
Obligatory (very early) xkcd:

My hobby: whenever anyone calls something an [adjective]-ass [noun], I mentally move the hyphen one word to the right.

Man, that's a rude ass-car.

https://xkcd.com/37/

jstanley
I have a 2005 Nissan Micra, it sounds like the car of your dreams.
ehnto
Not quite as pragmatic as a Micra, but my 2004 Nissan Stagea is also a delightful and dignified experience. I do in fact know how to operate a vehicle.

I feel like instead of paternalizing cars to the point that a hamburger left on the front seat is enough sentience to get from point A to B, we should tighten up our licensing requirements to reflect the significance of the task of operating a vehicle in public.

hasoleju
Really enjoyed the read!

At least the software in your car did what it was supposed to do. Although it’s very annoying.

I had a much worse problem with the software in my new expensive vw.

The problem was that after a few minutes of driving, the whole entertainment system including navigation shuts down to reboot. That’s bad but if it only happens once in a while one can live with that. After a few weeks it got worse. Not only did it reboot once, now it shut down again one minute after the last reboot and got stuck in that loop of rebooting every minute forever. It was so bad, that we started to bring a Bluetooth box to our trips so that the kids could be entertained while driving.

Navigation was not useable at all, because you could bet on it shutting down in the moment you really needed the instructions.

The worst case was that during reboot also the parking assistant was not available. Which is also something that raises the stress level when it happens in the wrong situation.

Finally after 2 years coping with this problem we received a software update that fixed the problem. Now the experience of using the on board navigation system feels luxury!

larusso
While reading I thought: It has to be a Kia! It’s has to be a Kia. And this brings me to the issue of auto testers on magazines or YouTube/TV. They tend to list all the features a car has to compare that to other cars to determine where you get more bang for your buck. But they never actually how well all these systems are integrated together. And if they do then the comparison is missing so one one wonders what other manufacturers do this better. I drove a Kia Sportage from 2014 and this was one of the last models without all them assistant features The car was very good but I could still feel that most things where hacked together and not well integrated.

My current car has a lot of these new features and works actually great. I drive a Skoda Enyaq (for US people think VW ID.4 but nicer)

The software also has its moments but they refrained from adding too many dings and dongs and messages. All mentioned features from the article work definitely better.

PeterStuer
Am I the only one nodding along with the author's rant to stop needless attention complexity in modern cars, that then had to do a double take when we came to the casual mention of the car still having a 'clutch' in 2023?
jojobas
>You're being histrionic.

And so he was.

jrockway
Maybe this is all a subtle push to get a cargo bike to move your kids and possessions around. I saw someone get a Christmas tree on one and then take their kids to get ride-thru hot chocolate. It's the new future!
Cockbrand
As someone who doesn’t drive, I’ve been wondering why people driving modern cars don’t use their turn signals in the city. This article finally made me understand - drivers don’t want to be annoyed by the warning sound of the blind spot sensors. The designers of this feature certainly had the best intentions, but made city streets a lot less safe. I often barely avoid getting swiped by an unexpectedly turning car when I’m on my bicycle.
lolinder
People neglecting their blinkers has been a problem for as long as I've been driving. These alerts probably aren't making things any better, but they're not responsible for most of the lazy turn signaling, especially given that I doubt most modern cars are as bad as OP's.
asciimov
Y'all need to do a little research and test drive the car before you buy it!
14
The part that I felt the most was the car locking the doors automatically. My older Camry does this at times but I still haven’t figured out when exactly. But it has made me paranoid. Getting out of the car for a second but leaving the key in, well now I will roll down a window even when it’s raining because my ghost car might lock me out. Apparently the only way to change this behaviour is to pay Toyota to change some parameters in the computer and which I would have to pay for. I just don’t want help locking my doors ever. I can handle it.
perfectritone
I thought I was buying something more dependable. Now I have to deal with the issues listed and more.

1. Carseat in the back triggers the seat belt unbuckled beeping that never ends.

2. Collision avoidance slams on the brakes when grass is leaning into the road, especially while reversing (a common occurrence in rural areas).

3. Battery dies when doors or trunk is left open due to the car running its computer.

4. Less control over lighting. All the interior lights turn on after turning the car off and opening a door.

5. "Infotainment" that looks like it was made in the early aughts and has no customizability. Why pay for a screen you can do next to nothing with. I can't even replace it to get a real equalizer for audio.

steve_adams_86
I have to guess you’re driving a Toyota because this is identical to my experience driving mine.

The actual driving experience is awesome. It’s a great vehicle that I’d rate highly based purely on the most basic function of the vehicle. The rest is pretty awful compared to what it could be, I think.

The battery dying due to the trunk being open… I bring a booster everywhere, even on short drives, because the battery could die for such stupid reasons. My wife stops to listen to the radio and look at the city on a local mountain? Dead. Washing the car and leave a door open for vacuuming? Dead. One of the kids turns on the computer without us realizing? Yeah, totally dead. I’ve boosted this car more than a dozen times now. We don’t do anything that wasn’t totally fine with past vehicles.

Oh well. It runs. It gets us to point b 99% of the time. I wish the infotainment unit wasn’t so abysmally bad, but I’ve never had such an easy time driving in bad conditions or hauling things. I love that.

Toutouxc
The battery thing doesn't sound normal. My car keeps the 12V plugs powered all the time, even parked and locked. Last winter, not driving very often, I noticed one day that the whole car was covered in snow except for a small round spot on the windshield. Turned out I'd left a camera plugged in, recording, for three days straight, generating enough heat to warm the windshield. The car did show a "voltage getting low" warning, but started just fine, I went on a little drive to let it charge and it's been fine since. My car is a humble 2018 Škoda (VW tech basically) still on the original battery, and it does the intelligent charging routine where it only charges when engine-braking and lets the voltage drop often, so it's one abused battery.
steve_adams_86
Wow, that’s interesting. Even with a brand new battery mine will have issues with rapid draining. I know the alternator is working, so it isn’t that. Maybe others are right that there’s a phantom drain somewhere. A camera recording would kill my battery in under an hour, I’m almost certain. The radio will do it in around 30m.
screamingninja
> The battery dying due to the trunk being open… I bring a booster everywhere, even on short drives, because the battery could die for such stupid reasons. My wife stops to listen to the radio and look at the city on a local mountain? Dead. Washing the car and leave a door open for vacuuming? Dead. One of the kids turns on the computer without us realizing? Yeah, totally dead. I’ve boosted this car more than a dozen times now. We don’t do anything that wasn’t totally fine with past vehicles.

That does not sound normal. AGM batteries are designed to have enough capacity to power car computer and other demanding circuits, but the car would typically intervene before your battery goes dead. Either the battery is bad or there is a phantom drain in some circuit. Get it checked out!

steve_adams_86
I believe there’s more to it as well, but the mechanic ran diagnostics and said this is fairly typical for the model (it’s a highlander).
numpad0
Don't most Toyota cars use 2DIN form factor for nav? They should be able to be easily pulled out and replaced.
steve_adams_86
Do you mean in order to replace the infotainment unit? That would be incredible.
freetime2
Have you replaced your battery? Because letting your battery drain fully even once can damage it. And if you’ve needed to boost it more than a dozen times, then it almost certainly sounds like it is time to replace.

https://vehicleanswers.com/does-draining-a-car-battery-damag...

steve_adams_86
Definitely, I’m on my 3rd battery now. My family doesn’t realize/understand that draining causes damage so they aren’t as careful as they could be, otherwise we’d likely still be on the 2nd.
LAC-Tech
God damn it I left my lights on the other night, and I just got a new battery recently too. Oh well.
BanazirGalbasi
> 3. Battery dies when doors or trunk is left open due to the car running its computer.

This happens with less-smart cars as well. I've heard countless stories of batteries dying on picnics or camping trips because car doors were left open or lights were left on. The computer is just one more thing to drain the battery, but leaving your doors open has been a bad idea for a long time now.

happytiger
I have no problems with new cars but I don’t like most of them.

Most modern cars are objectively better than older cars — we’ll see about the current crop of high pressure turbo powered eco-focused gas engines that are hitting the market now though.

Generally they are more efficient, provide more comfort inside and they're safer in a crash. Of course, all of these things have come at the cost of aesthetics and driver enjoyment (all of that safety and tech adds weight and of course complexity as it all has to be managed). Touchscreens had to be implemented because with so many functions in a modern car, you'd have 300 little buttons in the console if you didn't have a touchscreen. They tried this with some Ford products (little bubble buttons, oceans of little bubble buttons) and it’s was not great.

Their design has gone to utter shit because car designers seem to concentrate on 'futuristic' product features to compete with one another and then their companies tend to focus on pushing these changes as wanted features via advertising instead of just focusing on creating beautiful and usable vehicles.

Car designers are also pretty limited by the plethora of safety and tech that “has” to be installed in the car.

The root issue is the poor design languages present today, since it's not like there aren't any beautiful modern cars with very usable interfaces. They exist. The problem is they aren’t very sexy and they can’t compete on features or give the marketing department the photogenic interior car buyers are trained to expect in modern cars.

But most of them do a bad job integrating all these things. They chime with every traffic update, they close their doors automatically, they won’t let you put the car in drive when the door is open so you can’t adjust without hitting rocks at the camping spot, they freak out when hitting merge lines and slam on the brakes, their iconography looks like it was designed by Dale Earnheart’s newly minted graphic design firm, they have endlessly bright lights that blind oncoming users and destroy astrological observations in nearby mountains, and they have menu after menu of options that you can’t select when driving and have to pull into some sketchy parking spot to adjust them… it’s endless shit. And it makes me not love them.

wly_cdgr
Bikes. Kids? Bikes for them too. Wife? Another bike for her. Mother-in-law? She can walk.
jimt1234
> At every turn, rude-ass automotive software you didn't ask for clamors for your attention.

I love that sentence because it explains exactly how I feel. It's a miracle if I can start my car without at least one message popping up. I've been driving since the mid-80s, just a few years after I started programming/coding, and as much as I love software, and I think there's a lot of benefit to software-enabled cars, I also see so much distraction. It's like the web in the late-90s, littered with pop-up windows, except it's my car, and I'm trying to drive.

svennidal
My car is almost 15 years old. I can change every setting in my car without taking my eyes of the road. If my car was a text editor it would be Vim.
Pikamander2
A Vim car would be one where you have to pull out the manual every time you want to exit the vehicle.
Phostera
Pretty much describes my 2022 Outback. I’m working on the wife to sell it for two 10k older vehicles and 10k worth of parts budget. Mostly because the cameras and electronics will expensively fail and the warranty will be a pita.
NotYourLawyer
Apple Car when?
dieselgate
Potentially preaching to the choir here, I'll stick with my '02 and '88. Don't mind using glow plugs during cold startup procedure
FredPret
This is brilliant.

It's the whining, incessant beeping that got me.

I recently switched cars from a recent model Ford (basically a nervous beeper on wheels) to an ancient Jeep that does nothing but drive. It's 1000x better.

Tanoc
Starting my current car is always a pain in the ass that takes at least a minute. Get in the car, put the seatbelt on first so it doesn't complain, push the Start/Stop Engine button, immediately turn off the traction control and turn on Sport mode (buttons for which are conveniently placed right beside eachother) so that the car doesn't try to kill me in the rain and so I can get across an intersection from a dead stop faster than fifteen seconds, turn off the blind spot monitoring system so it doesn't flash me, turn off the forward collision warning so it doesn't scare the shit out of me when I'm going through the drive through, disable the parking sensor so that when I go to pay for my food I don't have to keep pressing "Okay" to get it to shut up because it thinks the wall to my left is an oncoming car, and then wait for another minute for the idle revs to drop to 900RPM before I even think of shifting out of park because the engineers thought putting zero weight oil in a highly stressed inline four with less displacement than my childhood lunchbox was a good idea.
albrewer
> turn off the forward collision warning so it doesn't scare the shit out of me

I was driving a 2018(?) Golf GTI with automatic braking on an extremely hilly road. The car handled fantastically, and was an absolute joy to drive on twisty roads... until the automatic braking kicked in because it detected the sudden sharp rise of the road in front of me as a vehicle I was about to collide with due to my speed.

It only happened for about a second, but it scared the daylights out of me.

I sold it back to the dealership a few months into lockdowns due to car prices going nuts, but that episode of random braking was a factor for me as well (not to say it was all bad; it saved me from a few fender benders too).

bonton89
Wow, I turned most of those features off in my car for similar reasons but at least they stay off. I'm sure they'll end up breaking someday preventing an inspection even though I don't use them however.
jjav
> Starting my current car is always a pain in the ass that takes at least a minute.

And this is why I'll never own a car newer than 2012 or so (give or take a few years depending on brand).

screamingninja
> > Starting my current car is always a pain in the ass that takes at least a minute.

> And this is why I'll never own a car newer than 2012 or so (give or take a few years depending on brand).

Non sequitur.

Klonoar
I've done a significant amount of track driving and rally driving, which is to say that I appreciate turning off traction control at points. Your immediate need to turn it off by default, for general road driving, is very strange to me. It should in no way be a blocker to you driving in the rain or in an intersection. What on earth are you driving...?

> turn off the forward collision warning so it doesn't scare the shit out of me when I'm going through the drive through

See, now we're talking. Every time I have a rental car it's like a waiting game to see if there's some sensor that's going to scream at me while I'm on a highway and concentrating. 100% agree that this paradigm could (and should) be rethought.

F-Lexx
Which car is that?
seanthemon
Wow, that is actually insane. God forbid you stall the car on a busy road "sorry! Turning off parking sensor takes a few seconds.." lol

A while ago I was considering replacing my 2004, but I see it's worthwhile to hold on

GreyMolecules
How does turning off TC keep your car from killing you in the rain? just out of curiosity. In my experience, TC has been very helpful, as it means I don't have to worry about feathering the gas pedal in heavy rain.
yason
Try getting off train/tram tracks in snow and ice with traction control off. In many situations you absolutely need to let the wheels slip (but not too much) in order to get around instead of cutting off most of the traction.
Tanoc
My car is front-biased AWD and is very predictable in the heavy rains we have here during winter that can leave an inch or more of standing water on the roads. Plus I grew up driving older cars that didn't even have ABS, let alone TCS. That means my habit is inducing oversteer to save myself, against the tendency of TCS to induce understeer that most drivers feel more comfortable with. I'd much rather spin out than slide off the road. When TCS activates in the rain that can be dangerous, because I hit the brakes to dip the nose before steering in, only for TCS to detect I'm slipping and jerk the car in the opposite direction (IE, towards the thing I'm avoiding). After having that happen two or three times it became habit to turn off TCS, and I haven't had a scare like that since.
nucleardog
Fwiw, I don't think that's a fundamental issue with the technology or anything... it could be the implementation in your car is just kind of bad.

The traction control in my car is more than happy to let me toss the car around any which way as long as I'm not giving it some sort of input that I want it to be doing something else. It seems to respond not to "the car is doing something potentially bad" but "there's a mismatch between what the driver is commanding and what the car is doing".

Steer into a spin and I can keep the car spinning, steer a bit against it and I can skid it sideways, little-left-little-brake-no-brake-snap-right and I'm tossing the car around 180 degrees. The only point it will cut in is if, during one of these, I point the wheel some direction and hit the gas indicating I want to be going that way now--it will correct the skid/slid/spin and get the car going that direction.

I have a display up during the winter that shows TCS activation and individual wheel slippage so I know when I'm driving beyond the limits of my actual traction. In 6 or 7 years of driving it in Canadian winters really the only time I ever see it cutting in is getting the car moving from stopped on ice.

Toutouxc
What kind of cars do you people drive where "feathering the gas pedal in heavy rain" is a necessity? My 90HP FWD car with very little weight on the front can still accelerate faster in rain without wheelspin than I'd ever need when driving normally.
Reubachi
It's not the wheelspin, it's the vague connectivity to the road. some FWD cars are more "Disconnected" from the back than others, all else equal.

If I take a corner in the rain at speed in my 280hp FWD hot hatch, will be fine cuz the back is pretty easy to "feel."

In a FWD ford taurus though that would be terrifying.

smilekzs
Some implementations of TC/ESC will abruptly brake one or more of the wheels in on/off pulses, using the ABS pump, disrupting an otherwise balanced cornering car.
bbarnett
Yes. I won't buy a car I cannot disable ABS on, because it extends braking distances, plus by doing so, all traction control is off.

But I honed my non-ABS driving in my teenage years, pre-ABS (for most cars at the time), on rural dirt roads, and on roads with constant snow and ice, and driving on frozen lakes.

Of course, if you disable ABS, you may end up without any form of real differential, as many cars use ediff tech, which is horrible, so I now have to also vet for a true hardware, non-open diff.

Sad.

nameequalsmain
Even a racing driver can't beat ABS on asphalt in a controlled setting.[1] On dirt roads or ice the story might be different.

[1] https://youtu.be/ERE9EtOWZMU?si=s35N-IzuyPLuEoKD

bbarnett
ABS has nothing to do with improving braking distance. Any skilled driver, who knows their car, can do far better.

For skilled drivers, ABS extends braking distance.

What ABS does, is let a driver mash the pedal on full, and still steer around obstacles. Something a skilled driver can still do.

One problem with these tests, is that if you disable ABS on some cars, the proportioning valve is still set to 50/50, front/rear, meaning you start to lose traction on the rear wheels, and skid. This causes a loss of control, and reduced braking power.

Cars prior to ABS has the capability to adjust rear brake pressure by weight, a typical default of 70/30.

Some card have ABS controllers which you can disable ABS functionality, but still retain proportioning control. Cars with proper diffs are often like this.

tass
Is this true with a modern abs, and have you tested your own capabilities vs abs? It can act on individual wheels which no human can do with a regular brake pedal.

Check out https://youtu.be/ERE9EtOWZMU if you’re interested.

bbarnett
I know of ABS capabilities, and extensively tested ABS on/off on every car I own.

ABS is about steering when people slam the brake pedal down, it is not about improving braking distance.

Outside of how it doesn't help on pavement, it is a absolute disaster on gravel, and deep snow.

For example, on gravel if you lock up the brakes, you dig in. Gravel builds in front of the tire, and your tire sinks. ABS won't allow this, and so on gravel I can stop from high speed fast, while ABS actively works to deny my ability to stop.

On snow, if you briefly lock up the brakes, snow builds in front of the wheel. You can then spin the wheels to turn, let up, and the car will instantly take off in a new direction. ABS actively prevents this.

ABS was never, ever designed to reduce braking distance. It was designed to allow people to steer while braking.

tass
The video I linked shows drivers (one professional, one not) achieved stopping distance in a straight line with and without abs in a fairly recent car.

Gravel and snow I understand - but at least for me are pretty big exceptions.

jaxx75
Well, to be fair, the oil weight is a result of CAFE standards. Squeezing out another .5mpg at the expense of an engine needing to be replaced at 115K miles (outside of warranty, of course) is the cost. There are other costs to improve fuel economy, like being stranded on the side of the road with no spare tire when you have a flat.
xyzelement
OMG. What kind of car is this?
Tanoc
Lexus ES. I traded a family member my Rogue for a couple of weeks until they finish moving.
codexb
VW for sure
antoncohen
This is vehicle specific. Not all 2023 vehicles behave this way. I have a current generation vehicle (same generation and tech as 2023).

- Doors stay unlocked. Eventually the engine won't start without pressing unlock on the key fob again, but the doors remain physically unlocked forever.

- Trunk is manually operated.

- It doesn't ding when starting the engine if my seatbelt it on. And I have a programmer that lets me disable the dings when my seatbelt it off. There are no dings when turning the engine off.

- Blind spot warning is configurable: Off, lights, lights + chime. The chime warning doesn't seem annoying.

- No lane keeping assistant.

- Tire pressure monitors work well. They are accurate (same pressure as multiple physical gauges I've tried). Tire pressure increases slightly when driving due to heat. They have never triggered a warning.

- I don't recall ever having to accept terms of service. It certainly hasn't happened multiple times.

I have physical knobs for volume, fan speed, and tuner. Physical buttons for everything else. No controls use resistive touch buttons. No controls are via touch screen (touchscreen has information and setting like blind spot, but not actual controls that don't have physical buttons).

I also have a 1990s vehicle, with an aftermarket touchscreen installed to support Android Auto and Apple CarPlay. The current generation vehicle is no more annoying than the 1990s one.

My wife has a 2023 model year vehicle. Many of the complaints in the post are enabled by default (auto re-lock, blind spot chime that gets confused by multiple lanes). But many of the annoying things are also configurable, including auto re-lock and blind spot.

So it is possible to pick a vehicle that isn't annoying. And I suspect most of the annoying things can be disabled.

cthulhus_crocs
Sounds wonderful, what make/model do you have?
lxe
Keep in mind, that new cars aren't bad simply because of all this new tech, but rather how this tech is exposed to the user. HCI seems to have disappeared by the wayside as we create more and more complicated systems.

Yet it is possible to apply good interaction design to complex systems. Taking the example from the car itself -- the engine and transmission is a very complicated system, yet it's exposed to the user through simple and learnable controls like steering wheel, the gear shift, and the pedals.

In these examples it's painfully obvious that human-machine interaction and user experience design was either an afterthought, or developed by people who are simply not qualified to actually design interactive systems altogether.

pomian
We need a Jony Ive in every company.
bborud
That would be an absolute disaster.

After Steve Jobs died it became clear that Ive needed both someone to give him direction and to filter his outoput. Steve Jobs knew something about users. Ive demonstrably didn't and, to speak plainly, managed to lodge his head so far up his own behind that he completely lost sight of the user. As a result he managed to gradually alienate key demographics among laptop users. Including designing laptops that would gradually self-destruct due to completely careless design (like blowing hot air on components that really, really shouldn't have hot air blown on them).

77pt77
Please god, no!

You'd get something like this [1]. And I'm not even joking.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA

et-al
You're kidding right? Apple under Jony Ive without Steve gave us the worst generation of Macbook Pros: butterfly keyboard, limited ports, and the touchbar.
yard2010
We get to see a renaissance today at least, after years of waiting
weeblewobble
Recently upgraded my work laptop to an M1 and I gotta say I miss the touchbar. Very sad that they got rid of it seemingly forever. Concretely it was great for managing screen recording. But in general I don’t understand the backlash, especially once they added a physical escape key for my fellow vim heads.

The haters won but I wonder what their victory cost us. Am I supposed to be happy I got my F11 key back??

yard2010
"Siri is not available.. blah blah voicover blah blah siri"
GloriousKoji
The touchpads are absolutely absurdly large, Apple could have easily made it a little bit smaller and fit both a row of function keys and the touch bar.
bborud
yeah, I don't understand why they felt they had to make it that big. Now it is just in the way.
enraged_camel
What about his positive contributions to the rest of the Apple product family?
Tade0
You mean the frankly ugly UI redesign?
tuatoru
Non-removeable batteries and weird screens?
tuatoru
Non-replaceable batteries and weird screens?
jackjeff
To be fair it’s not like you can easily remove batteries from an EV car anyway ;)
warkdarrior
You'd better not hold the steering wheel wrong!
Shawnj2
AI (specifically voice recognition and LLM’s) can probably help solve this problem by having the LLM control things for you while “talk to the thing like a human” is the exposed interface.
LASR
Great. So now my car is the teenager in the driver seat I have to keep pestering with instructions to not kill me.
marssaxman
I sincerely hope you are joking.
Shawnj2
For cars yes, for everything else no.
uoaei
When I plug in my phone into the USB port on my newer vehicle, it asks me if I want to allow or deny the car to see the files on my phone. Nice. However before I make a choice, the default is already to allow file transfers. Not nice. I think Android is ultimately the one who could and should change this behavior but I'm sure my car is hoovering up any changes visible through the filesystem since the last time I plugged it in.

The section titled "Using your turn signals" also matches my experience and pisses me off to no end. Have car designers never driven one of their own cars?

Fischgericht
What a wonderful write-up on this subject.

And "I'm sure 90% of all 2023 cars run on the CAN bus equivalent of a 10.000 line, 100 cell Jupyter Notebook that was last restarted in the fall of 2018." is spot on.

Every day I have to fight against my Tesla trying to kill me, with the "emergency" steering assist believing it's about to be attacked by some static object sitting to the right of the road, and coming up to the conclusion that before that tree might start running towards me to try steer me into the opposing traffic. And doing emergency braking because I have "left the road" due to having the guts to drive out of my garage. Or to believe the plants in front of my house are a traffic light. Or to believe that the "end of kid play road" inside the city means "all speed limits are ending" (I live in Germany, where, as you surely know, a "drive as fast as you want" road sign indeed exists. But no, not inside cities. No, it's not reasonable to accelerate to 200km/h / 125mph inside a city, dear "adaptive" cruise control). Or giving me phantom braking because the car 50 meters/yards in front of me is coming to a slow stop at an intersection, and I did not yet see the urge to hit the brakes for that.)

And because the "10.000 line, 100 cell Jupyter Notebook" "programmers" have a very high self-esteem and believe they actually are good at their job of course they reject the idea of giving the customer the option to TURN OFF their broken shit permanently.

All I want is an electric car that charges fast, has a reasonable range and build quality, and a good audio. I'd be so happy with my Tesla if they would just allow me to disable all of their features that are simply broken and unwanted. And the author is also spot on when it comes to doors: To open a Tesla model 3 door is a complex matter that takes most people to use two hands, which for the previous 120 years was done by everyone with a single hand in half the time.

[Side note in case I get replies from any "but in my Tesla everything works fine, Autopilot really works, and vision only, too": fan boys: How comes that everybody is able to upload videos to YouTube of Tesla cars doing insanely stupid things all the time, but none of the fan boys that claim Teslas software actually works is able to upload a video of stuff working? Is it really that hard to catch "the moment everything works fine" on video if you claim that this moment is "always"? I would love to see some videos of Tesla Model 3 automatic wipers actually doing something logical like "wipe if it's raining, but don't if it's not raining ) ]

) Videos of your Tesla correctly identifying and showing each and every garbage bin in your city at the exact correct position does not count. Everybody knows that Tesla has the best detection of sidewalk garbage bins on this planet. I understand that there is a programmer at Tesla who really is in deep love with garbage bins, but (rightfully) hates kids, which therefore are only detected in 30% of the cases of them appearing on the road.

neoromantique
Been dailying a 1991 VW Passat for a bit now and it is so exciting to feel that your car actually belongs to you, no silly electronics, data collection or alike, I'll be putting it into a garage over the winter to preserve it, and it gets really icy here, so getting something with stability assists would be wise.

So I got a 2001 VW Golf to drive over the winter, and same story, but less charm.

(both are 1.8 petrol)

sasaf5
As a GUI-burntout person, I want a fully mechanical car, with gas lamps for headlights and a Coffman engine starter.
dublinben
You should consider a bike with dynamo lights. It’s more purely mechanical than any car made in the last century, and you can do all the maintenance yourself.
mikewarot
I was so distraught when my spouse traded away her 1999 Honda Civic Hatchback without asking... (for $250!) when getting a new car. I'd be driving that car to this day if I could. It was light, fast, and small... didn't have air conditioning, but I could live with that.

The only thing that ever went wrong with it was the exhaust system had to be replaced.

laserDinosaur
I had a 1999 Honda Civic Hatchback! Best car I ever owned. The only issue I ever had was a little component which regulates the amount of water from the radiator getting stuck, which I've since heard a few other people had the same problem.

I miss that car. The fanciest features it had was fuel injection and power steering.

Tao3300
I have a CD player, a volume knob, and can close the rear door myself in my decade old Toyota Sienna. I refuse to accept a car without these things. Why would I want to downgrade?
smabie
I mean at some point surely you will have to accept a car without these things (CD player atleast)?
Tao3300
Show me a car without a CD player that has something better than a CD player in terms of fidelity.
m463
tesla sound systems will play 192/24 FLAC from usb.

Not sure if all systems, not sure if they downsample.

on the other hand, everything else about the car is a rude-ass awakening...

Hunt touchscreen menu to find defrost. Newer cars use touchpads in center of steering wheel for turn signals. They guess or use touchscreen because no gearshift lever. and on and on...

wernercd
Just upgraded from a 2012 civic to 2020 civic and a lot of the experience is the same - although it seems worse for you. Been driving it for ~3 months and experience a lot of the same (especially the TPS system that I'm going to have to get looked at).

I wonder how much of the aggravation is compounded by having a "busy" car (read: kids. I drive alone) that takes the annoyance and knocks it up more?

Some things haven't happened to me (system updates) but other things are normal now (lane assist being finiky).

pabs3
All those behaviours are software-driven. Where is our right to repair for software? It should be mandatory to release all source code for physical devices like cars under the GNU GPLv3.
Tao3300
I get what you're saying, but no thanks.

> THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES PROVIDE THE PROGRAM “AS IS” WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION.

pabs3
Sure, but the lack of warranty provided under the GPL doesn't preclude manufacturers from providing an additional warranty and doesn't preempt the laws that require warranties from physical product manufacturers.
goodboyjojo
i don't think cars should have any business connecting to the internet. if i ever get a car i want it to be simple
technotarek
I can’t believe how hard this was to wrap my head around:

“ If you're at a traffic light, in the rightmost lane with two lanes turning left, of course the demented tamagotchi on wheels thinks you are about to sideswipe the car to your left.”

Sincerely, Right side of the road driver

mysterydip
Thanks! I was completely confused trying to visualize it. I forgot about left side driving.
callalex
I would never have one because I prefer to actually own and repair my car, but this kind of UX stuff is what separates a Tesla from the dinosaurs.

Although the other day it took my very technically competent friend over 3 minutes to open the glove box of his Tesla…

pornel
The common sentiment here is that all electronics should be ripped out of the cars, but I think the solution should be for car manufacturers to recognize that UX and software quality matters.

All legacy manufacturers seem to treat software with contempt, as some sort of unimportant annoyance that only needs to be implemented to minimum spec, and has no purpose other than getting regulators off their back, plus maybe looking pretty in the showroom.

Someone has probably written a checklist with "the car must beep whenever the seatbelt is not fastened", sent it to developers in the lowest basement level, they've checked it off checklist, and nobody has given a second thought about how dumb that is when taken literally.

scalablenotions
Auto manufacturers don't have the skills to design or implement good UX, and they don't have the leadership with the skills required to hire the people with the right skills.
herpdyderp
or rather: their customers don't care and keep buying what they churn out anyway, so they have no incentive to change
CamperBob2
We'll find out soon enough, won't we. Or at least GM will.
crooked-v
I feel like the pretty massive consumer support of Apple CarPlay/Android Auto, to the point where supporting it is sometimes used as an explicit marketing element, is a sign to the contrary.
Tao3300
When they're all enshittified like this, what are you going to do? Be the one person without a car? That'll show 'em!
thedanbob
I recently drove around the UK for a couple of weeks in late model VW Golf. It was by far the most infuriating car I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with. The highlights: adaptive cruise control that sometimes follows not only the car in front of you but the car(s) to either side (preventing you from passing); cruise control automatically changing when you enter a reduced speed area (really fun when you're doing 70 on the motorway and the car decides it's now a 30); crash detection that freaks out whenever you get too close to the guy in front of you who's turning; lane assist that turns itself back on every time you start the car; parking assist that loudly complains whenever it's not working (every other time or so); auto-speed windshield wipers that attempt to enter warp when the weather starts lightly misting.

If this is what all modern cars are like I absolutely refuse to buy one ever.

terryf
Fantastic post. Really, the UX in most new mid-range cars is terrible.

Also, can anyone explain why in the US if I click unlock on the remote, it just unlocks the front door? This keeps happening on rental cars. You have to click twice on unlock to get all the doors to open. Of course if I want to put something in the back seat, that means first breaking my fingers while pulling on the handle, then cursing and clicking the open button on the remote 10 times to makes sure the idiotic system has unlocked ALL the doors. Which I wanted it to do in the first place.

antoncohen
> can anyone explain why in the US if I click unlock on the remote, it just unlocks the front door? This keeps happening on rental cars. You have to click twice on unlock to get all the doors to open.

This is likely configurable. Instructions should be in the owner's manual. It is configurable for both my and my wife's vehicles, one via the touchscreen and the other by pressing and holding unlock for 5 seconds.

callalex
Every remote unlocked vehicle I have used since the 80s has behaved that way. The difference is you can re-program the behavior with the screen in modern cars.
spdustin
It's in case you're alone, and prevents someone else from being able to jump into the passenger seat and carjack you. Most new cars have a customization option to change that behavior.
terryf
Riiight. Or they could just carjack me when I'm getting in the driver's seat? Or putting my stuff in the trunk? Or while walking towards the car?

It's just silly. But thank you for explaining.

phendrenad2
FWIW I absolutely do not buy that theory. It's probably some initiative to reduce carbon emissions by reducing the number of solenoid actuations.
jwiz
If you are sitting in your car and they yank open the passenger door and jump in, they can get a lot closer to you, faster, than they can if they approach you while you are outside your car.
DamnInteresting
On the subject of automobiles making strange assumptions, my Chevy Bolt EV has a "feature" that I have never been able to understand:

The car has 2 drive modes: "D" and "L". The "D" mode mimics an automatic ICE car--it creeps forward when one lets off the brake, and coasts for a long time when one lets off the accelerator. I always drive the car in "L" mode, which is the aggressive regenerative braking mode. When I let off the gas it slows to a stop quickly (assuming the battery is not near full charge). And it does not creep when I release the brake.

But there is one bizarre exception: If I power on the car and put it in "L" mode, but I haven't yet fastened my seat belt, the car will creep forward when I let off the brake, just like in D. This has caught me off guard a few times, but I've always caught it and hit the brakes before the car rolled into my garage door or a car parked in front of me.

I once brought it up on /r/BoltEV, and someone claiming to be a Chevrolet engineer told me this behavior was by design, but had no good justification for it.

evilaubergine
The reason is for safety (so people don't get out of their car while it's halted in L without the parking brake), this did cause me to (slowly) crash once, I am sure people have been nearly injured by the safety feature.

I later replaced my Bolt with a Tesla Model 3 (yeah, I have a lot of complaints here too, but overall it's less annoying) purely for fast-charging reasons, but driving a Bolt again afterwards drove me absolutely insane with their L mode:

  - have to enable it each drive
  - doesn't work in reverse
  - creeps when seatbelt comes unbuckled and sometimes RANDOMLY
  - randomly decides it's not going to regen as much even when low on charge
I know it's not the top of anybody else's demands from a car, but what the fuck Chevrolet. There should always be a button for "I didn't buy an EV by accident, now let me fucking drive it normally".

The truth is Chevrolet never intended to allow you to use L mode to drive at all. They only added it in, so you can put on the parking brake, and tap down the gear selector repeatedly to switch between L and D, making your car bounce up and down. I don't know of any other car with an electric twerking lever, and for that reason, it still holds a special place in my heart.

callalex
The real explanation is that every “L” or “B” mode on a hybrid or EV exactly duplicates the behavior of the original hybrid, the 2001 Toyota Prius. That vehicle made sure to get as close as it could to the behavior of automatic transmissions of Toyotas built in that time period.
MarkusWandel
My new Honda is actually not that bad. Auto relock is more like 30 seconds and possibly can be disabled (haven't gone carefully through the menus) and most of the other nonsense in that article is absent.

About the only major annoyance - and that's optional since the keyfob still has lock/unlock buttons - is that walk away autolock works about 9 times out of 10 - so you always always have to listen for the click of the locks - and that the touch sensors on the front door handles, which are supposed to toggle between locked and not, often decide that you want to lock your already locked car 3-4x in a row before finally unlocking. You could, of course, use the keyfob, but everything about the car trains you to just keep that in a zipped pocket.

Jemm
Rented a VW in Europe. It had the feature where it turned off the engine every time you stopped which I hate; so I read the owners manual and turned that feature off. At the end of the trip, I turned the car off and it would never start again. Rental company had to come with a flatbed and tow it away.
callalex
Those two things are probably unrelated.
jmull
> Edit: for the record, this is about a Kia Ceed SW, but it's not that important because I'm sure 90% of all 2023 cars run on the CAN bus equivalent of a 10.000 line, 100 cell Jupyter Notebook that was last restarted in the fall of 2018.

For what it's worth, my fairly recently new car (bought new two years ago) has none of these problems. Not that it's perfect, but all these user hostile features might be more of a Kia issue than a new car issue.

nuancebydefault
My kia ceed has most of the described features, they work fine 97 percent of the time. Those 3 percent can be a bit annoying but it is not so bad as described and you get used to it quickly. You quickly learn the first step is to close doors and fasten seatbelt to avoid some blings. The steering aid is subtle enough that you can easily turn against it and is very easy to turn on and off using a physical button on... the steering wheel. It also has a very good rear camera and NO distance beeps, just the way I like it.
renewiltord
Sounds like shit. I have a Subaru Forester 2018 and everything is configurable:

1. Auto-lock is a feature to configure. I've never used it.

2. You can use the trunk button to slow-close or you can just close it by hand.

3. Starting the car does chime. Same as his.

4. You can turn off the blind spot detection if it's over-sensitive.

5. The lane-keeper stays on in traffic, but the auto-cruise will turn off.

6. Tyre pressure works fine.

7. If I open the door with engine running, it will chime. I want this. It also won't lock with the keys inside and will chime for that too. I want that too.

0x457
> 7. If I open the door with engine running, it will chime. I want this. It also won't lock with the keys inside and will chime for that too. I want that too.

I need this. I got used to my hybrid just turning off if I open the door while parked.

brundolf
I've heard that Teslas are some of the only cars where nonzero thought was put into the overall UX. That on its own is enough to put them on my radar

Are there any other brands people have had good (or not-bad) experiences with?

speedgoose
If you are allergic to Tesla, I think BMW can offer a descent user experience. If you ignore the silly feature such as the possibility to draw letters on the navigation pad like it’s a palm pilot from the 90s. The system feels a bit dated but it’s a good dated system.

I also think Tesla is ahead, even after they removed the stalks. But they could do better. Maybe the UX engineers need a trip to Europe and expect having to use the blinkers in roundabouts.

brundolf
I wouldn't say "allergic", would just like to know if there are other (esp cheaper) options
1970-01-01
The luxury branch of the OEM will put the most thought into the UX. You do need to pay up for software polishing.
brundolf
From what I've heard this is not true. I.e. I've heard Lexus has some of the worst in-car software out there
1970-01-01
I think you're refrenceing the borked remote update? That was bad, but it seems like it was a one-off, lesson learned event.
brundolf
No, I've specifically heard that the infotainment system is worse than average
1970-01-01
Lexus has CarPlay and Android Auto. The infotainment is a pipe of the OS from your phone to the vehicle screen. There are still buttons that take time to work into muscle memory and light customization, but that vaires for every user.
karaterobot
At some point, they stopped being able to sell new model years by innovating on things that matter, and they had to just cram in a bunch of electronics, touch screens, and dubious safety features so they could show forward progress. I would love if (more) manufacturers just said "nope, what you're buying when you buy our new car is unused parts, and a fresh coat of paint—not new features. This is the same car we've been refining for the last 10 years. We got it basically right the first time, and there hasn't been a need to mess with it."

I suppose that the savings in manufacturing, part sourcing, and R&D costs would be non-trivial, but that you'd lose sales to people who actually do think that a slightly bigger touch screen or a yellow light that goes off when your passenger farts is important and will spend extra money on it. And that's one reason we're where we are today.

ehnto
I agree, but I don't understand why they don't innovate on looks and utility instead. They have the EveryMan commuters down, and the FamilyMan people movers are sorted. Lets fill out the rest of the niches.
hahajk
How much of this is trying to get a higher IIHS safety rating[1]? I liken these features to the idle engine auto-off feature that allows manufacturers to add 1 or 2 city mpgs to their rating even though I've never known a human who likes that feature.

[1] https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/iihs-creates-safeguard-rati...

callalex
The industry seems to have created this problem for itself by spending huge amounts of marketing money to link new cars with financial status, and pushing hard on financially engineered products like 2-year leases and 0-down loans. Single year product cycles ruin pretty much everything they touch, from automobiles, to phones, to operating systems, to laundry machines.
psadauskas
I have a 2014 Toyota Tacoma. I get in, start it, and its usually connected to my phone and playing the last podcast before I've even backed out of the garage.

My wife's car is a 2015 Nissan. I get in, start it, and I'm out of the driveway and on the road before the infotainment system has finished booting, and I get to the stop sign before it discovers my phone and plays the podcast. And there's a 20% chance it fails to connect to my phone, and I have to stop at the side of the road and put it in park before I'm allowed to press the buttons to "forget" my phone and re-add it again.

OTOH, my Tacoma is just a two-seater, so if I have any groceries or a dog in the passenger seat, the seatbelt alarm bings at me for a solid minute of driving before giving up. I usually just leave it buckled, and empty, because I haven't bothered figuring out how to disconnect it in the 10 years I've owned it.

tonyarkles
Heh, reading the article/rant I was waiting for the Nissan punchline. I was travelling for work a couple months ago and ended up with a Nissan Armada. Pretty much everything the author's complaining about was things I experience. Plus it had a forward collision detector that loved to start freaking out while I was sitting at a rural red light with narry a car in sight for miles.

I was really glad to come home and get back in my 2016 Tacoma :). It has a couple of quirks but it really is a joy to drive every day. I definitely feel your pain about the front seat though, although I've got the Access Cab so groceries and dogs go in the back "seat".

g105b
Every time I started my 1999 Punto, I'd be greeted with "Ze Blautoof dewiyise has connected-a-successfuwwy"
BugsJustFindMe
> and its ... playing the last podcast before

I never want this. I fill with rage when a car automatically starts playing things without asking. Yes, it's true, a week ago I listened to something. That was not an invitation for the car to start playing it now.

Tao3300
This had hilarious results for me recently. I loaded the car with my tween kids and their neighborhood friends, realized I forgot something inside, and the history podcast I was listening to started automatically while I was bumbling around. It was an episode about the Marquis de Sade.
callalex
My mental model is that every car designer peaked in the 80s. An FM radio automatically starts playing whatever it was tuned to when turned off. Therefore every car designer has decided that digital media should work exactly the same way, with no override option.
Baeocystin
Right there with you. And it's never instant, either. Some time (and it's random, not consistent!) between +5 and +30 seconds after I start the car, I will get some random song/podcast/voicemail playing, usually when I'm trying to focus on something else. I hate this behavior so much. Doubly-so in that I can't turn it off.
maxerickson
It should just be easy to set (no autoplay or auto continue or whatever).

My main use case is music on a short commute. Yes, I want it to start automatically playing as soon as it can. I don't want to mess with my phone.

psadauskas
For me at least, that's the right thing. I do get a bit annoyed that it'll sometimes play some random youtube video I happened to be watching on my phone instead of the podcast, but that's Apple's fault, not Toyota's. I wish there was a way to configure "preferred audio app when connected to this bluetooth device" in the setting somewhere.

But I think playing the last podcast automatically is the right thing. Just like if I have it switched to the radio when I turned it off, when I turn it back on it goes back to radio, turned to the same station. I'd be annoyed if I had to hit the infotainment power button every time, even though I just turned the car on.

taylodl
My 2015 Honda Civic LX was the same as your 2014 Toyota Tacoma. Turn it on, it'd connect to my iPhone in 2 seconds, and start playing. It was actually a nice car.

I've rented lots of different cars. I've never had an issue getting my phone to connect to them, and whenever I start the car my phone has connected in a few seconds. Haven't noticed alarms and alerts beeping and popping up or any of that nonsense people are talking about here. Is it certain makes having these issues and I just haven't rented these makes?

callalex
You must be part of the 0.001% of people that fasten their seatbelt BEFORE starting the car, or you are just not that observant/sensitive.
taylodl
Of course. Don't you let your fuel injectors prime before starting your car? What do you do while doing that? Put your seatbelt on!
morsch
Must be all those gallons and gallons of fuel that are boosting the in-car entertainment.
metabagel
We’re in the “uncanny valley” where the car can detect possibly dangerous situations, but not with any degree of certainty.
NegativeLatency
Recently started using a bakfiets style cargo bike and it is a game changer in terms of being able to not use/depend on a car. It's so nice being able to optionally carry another human or a ton of groceries and other stuff on my bike without messing around with panniers and racks.

I really love how it makes doing regular stuff more fun, sort of similar to my enjoyment of driving the small Smart cars, except I can park it pretty much wherever.

Avamander
At some point it's going to cause alert fatigue, is it not?
pixl97
I've seen some people that had an old car drive an a modern car and complain about all the different beeps... But if you're with them you quickly realize the car is effectively playing airplane and saying

"WHOOP WHOOP pull up"

Yea, the car this throwing a fit because you're changing lanes without signaling. Your feeling the persons butthole via their bumper in front of you. You're flinging it backwards at 40MPH in the parking lot.

So many people have been conditioned to drive like such shit for years that it's surprising them that they should stay 40 feet back from the car in front of them when they are driving 70.

tristor
I'm pretty sure that point was about 5 years ago. I was recently in an Uber with a driver that ardently ignored every ding or alert from the car. Although, that's nothing new, it is basically standard fare to ride in Ubers with maintenance lights and check-engine lights on, at least in the US.
emmender1
this rant is similar to the one on modern hotel showers published today.

https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/travel/hotel-showers-nate-barg... (behind paywall)

the designers of these things are not the actual users, hence feature creep and pointless gadgetry that impede the main function

metabagel
A summary would be nice. I subscribe to three national newspapers, but the WSJ is not one of them (and never will be).
klik99
For anyone who wonders why people like Teslas, despite all the bad press and public failings - it's because a lot of this "small stuff", the subtle UX touches, is done very well in Teslas.
speed_spread
Teslas are missing too many buttons and knobs. Basic stuff like heating and volume, I want my hand to know where to reach as I'm driving.
resolutebat
You can adjust volume from the left scroll button on the wheel.

I was driving around last week in a rented Kia very similar to the target of the article's rant, down to all the listed warts (DING! DING! DING!). After getting used to Tesla's set-and-forget approach, I found having to fluff around with the temperature controls manually quite annoying.

modeless
Yeah. It's not that Tesla never shipped issues like this, either. The difference is in the over-the-air updates. They have consistently fixed these kinds of annoyances. Annoyances that on any other car you'd just have to live with for the next 10 years.

Mine is a completely different car than when I got it in 2019, with far more features and fewer annoyances. Really the only annoyances left are the ones where software can't fix hardware design issues, mainly the awkward door handles and the lack of a sensor for the automatic wipers.

dclowd9901
Too bad they can’t align body panels.
resolutebat
Blame American manufacturing for that, they're aligned beautifully on the ones made in Shanghai.
bitzun
This is why I can't imagine buying a newer car than, say, 2014. I have mid 2010s Toyota which is cheap enough to not have any consumer hostile or fragile features, and a mid 2000s Honda with much the same. Aside from sheer destruction, there's not much damage or failure that will be worth it to me to buy a replacement vehicle for either. Like most Americans, I used to think cars are cool, but if either dies I'm going to replace them with the oldest piece of shit I can.
xyzelement
These are almost all reasonable...

// Unlocking the doors...

The reason they auto-close again is (presumably) because with a remote control it's very easy to accidentally unlock either with the keys in your pocket or because kids are playing with them. You don't want the car parked unlocked all week w/o you knowing if that happens.

// Closing the trunk

I think this is a combination of "why is my rear hatch door automatic now" and "why does it move slowly." The answer to the former I think is so you can open your trunk remotely and then grab and carry the stuff, and also to enable the short/weaker folks to operate the taller hatch door (vs a lower-trunk, which isn't what you have...) And then the reason the automatic hatch closes slowly is to not injure you or your child if you happen to not get out of the way quickly enough.

// Starting the engine

I think that audio-ding exists to alert you if a child has touched the start button, which they can obviously do with key-less ignition.

// Using your turn signals

This is the one that sounds truly wrong - if your car alerts you of adjacent vehicles when it shouldn't, (a) you can probably turn off that assist and (b) you should tell the company because it literally sounds like a bug.

// Coming to a full stop

Ditto for hands on the wheel during stop - sounds like a bug.

// The goddamn tires themselves

Yes sounds like you have flawed pressure sensors, go take the car to the dealer.

nikanj
> This is the one that sounds truly wrong - if your car alerts you of adjacent vehicles when it shouldn't, (a) you can probably turn off that assist and (b) you should tell the company because it literally sounds like a bug.

My vocabulary fails to adequately convey how useless that bug report would be. Who would you even contact to report the issue?

xyzelement
// Who would you even contact to report the issue?

The dealer.

Tao3300
> These are almost all reasonable

These are all almost reasonable.

bigstrat2003
> This is the one that sounds truly wrong - if your car alerts you of adjacent vehicles when it shouldn't, (a) you can probably turn off that assist and (b) you should tell the company because it literally sounds like a bug.

This is the one which I empathized with, because it happens to me all the time (2022 Mazda CX-30). The "car next to you" warning doesn't come on randomly or anything, it's that the software can't distinguish between the scenario when I'm driving straight and about to make a lane change, or when I'm turning at an intersection and there's a car in the turn lane next to me. It is admittedly annoying that the car beeps at me in the latter scenario, but I have to imagine that it's hard to distinguish between the two.

xyzelement
I am trying to figure out why this doesn't happen in my car or happens naturally enough that it doesn't bother me. I have to keep an eye out for it.
throwaway290
Might just be that you are the rare one actually using the turn signals silencing the warning:)
bigstrat2003
You've misunderstood what we're talking about. Using the turn signal is what triggers the warning in this case. The car is correctly detecting that there's a car in your blind spot, but it incorrectly interprets the turn signal as "I'm going to change lanes" rather than "I'm making a turn".
throwaway290
I see, sorry
pixl97
Heh, what would be funny is if we asked the op why they needed a new car and they were like "Oh, I got over into another car".

I do have some complaints about modern cars, but damn, the safety features have saved my ass multiple times. Backup cameras and sonic warning systems are great. I've had people come out of left field at high speed in parking lots when I'm stuck between someones mega vehicles. The system watching from the rear can see what I can't. The turn signals while getting over (and lane detection in my car) is highly useful, especially in the multilane interstates where some jackwagon decides to do a multilane pass on the far right on the other side of a semi and then fly into the middle lane in one swoop while I'm attempting to get in the middle lane from the fast lane.

terryf
Uh, none of these are good reasons. At best they are extremely rare and weird edge cases and good UX is not making the weird edge cases dominate the experience.

I mean, how likely is it that you are in the car, NOT sitting in the front seat and a kid is sitting in the front seat and fiddling with the starter knob? I mean, even if they press the start button, then the car won't start unless you've also pressed the brake pedal? And if you're not sitting in the car while the kid is playing in it, then ... the beep does nothing anyway?

Really, the constant beeping and maniacally locking the doors all the time is ridiculous.

Also, can anyone explain why in the US if I click unlock on the remote, it just unlocks the front door? This keeps happening on rental cars. You have to click twice on unlock to get all the doors to open. Of course if I want to put something in the back seat, that means first breaking my fingers while pulling on the handle, then cursing and clicking the open button the remote 10 times to makes sure the idiotic system has unlocked the doors. Which I wanted it to do in the first place.

Really, the author of the article is 100% correct. The UX on most new mid-range cars is ridiculously bad.

xboxnolifes
> Also, can anyone explain why in the US if I click unlock on the remote, it just unlocks the front door? This keeps happening on rental cars. You have to click twice on unlock to get all the doors to open. Of course if I want to put something in the back seat, that means first breaking my fingers while pulling on the handle, then cursing and clicking the open button the remote 10 times to makes sure the idiotic system has unlocked the doors. Which I wanted it to do in the first place.

I don't have an answer as to why, but this isn't a new car feature in the US. It's been this way my entire life. In the US we've just been conditioned to press unlock twice.

If you want my guess of the intent, it's so you can get into your car without the possibility of someone sneaking into / stealing from the other side of the car.

seanthemon
The double unlocking has been a thing for a long long time, I believe as a safety feature or something. My 2004 dumb-car also has this feature (and I also dislike it)
ianferrel
The pressure sensor answer is a good reason. I have two cars with pressure sensors, and they've gone off a handful of times over the years. Each time I check, the pressure is low and I put more air in.

If they're going off constantly, they're faulty, and should be replaced. That's not a design decision failure; sometimes parts are bad.

xyzelement
// At best they are extremely rare and weird edge cases and good UX ... how likely is it that you are in the car, NOT sitting in the front seat and a kid is sitting in the front seat ... I mean, even if they press the start button, then the car won't start unless you've also pressed the brake pedal?

"Tell me you don't have kids without telling me you don't have kids." But seriously, this happens all the time - I am taking something out of the trunk or taking the baby out of the rear seat, meanwhile my toddler jumps into the driver's seat to play around with the steering wheel. 20% of the times he does that, he's gonna hit the big blue start button. I hear it because I am right outside the car, and it matters because this turns on the electrical system so leaving it that way will drain the battery.

// Really, the constant beeping and maniacally locking the doors all the time is ridiculous.

You can turn most of that off, and if you're doing normal things like starting the car the right way, you never hear them. EG, I only hear that beep when the toddler does his thing or on the very rare occasions when I intentionally turn on the electrical system w/o starting the engine.

// Also, can anyone explain why in the US if I click unlock on the remote, it just unlocks the front door?

Sure. I relate to this use-case less personally but it's a safety feature for when you're parked somewhere desolate and dark. The idea is that by unlocking only the driver door, you create less room for someone to jump into the car from the other doors and carjack you. Like I said, not something I encounter but I suppose it got created for a reason.

It's also a thing you can turn off. Here's the instructions for Toyota[1]. It's also obviously a muscle memory for cars you own, where you press once or twice depending on which doors you want to open.

// Really, the author of the article is 100% correct. The UX on most new mid-range cars is ridiculously bad

The author reports a couple of things that sound like straight up BUGS and I pointed those out as things he should really talk to a dealer about because they are so dumb that it might just be his car specifically. The rest of them and the ones you listed - are very reasonable features and sane defaults as I described. You may not be used to them in rental cars and obviously you aren't going to fiddle with the settings in those cars, but if this was your car you'd either turn them off, adjust your style to match the device (ie - what ARE you doing that you're getting that beeping all the time?) or maybe your life will evolve to a place where you appreciate some of these kid-focused features more.

[1] https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/remote-2-press-unlock.1...

Johnny555
And this one makes perfect sense:

But, only if you put it in neutral first, refrain from even thinking about touching the accelerator pedal, and fully depress the clutch (even though you just put it in fucking neutral)

I always put the car in neutral and press the clutch, before trying to start it, so wouldn't even notice if the car enforced that... my car only enforces that the clutch be pushed down, but taking it out of gear is a good best practice for extra redundancy, for instance to protect against the case where the clutch hydraulic cylinder had a leak so the clutch didn't fully disengage)

mastazi
I stopped paying attention to the alert sounds because they can be triggered for so many reasons and finding out why the sound is playing every time, would mean that I would be constantly distracted while driving. So, ignoring the warnings is actually the safer option in my case (2023 Toyota)
xyzelement
Funny, I have a '21 and find it reasonable.
garciansmith
I seriously don't understand how people can stand to drive new cars. Every time I'm in one (e.g., a rental) I need to spend a ton of time figuring out how to turn tons of settings off just so the steering wheel won't randomly jerk or the car won't brake when I don't want to, to say nothing of the constant beeps and lights. A friend had an old Saab with a feature called "Black Panel" that turned off every gauge at night save what was absolutely necessary. It was so nice.

When I needed a car two years ago I purposefully looked for one that didn't even have a full screen, figured all those annoyances would be reduced that way (which probably annoy me even more than the OP). The radio/infotainment does have bluetooth and an aux port, but just a simple two-line digital display, perfect for my needs as someone who thinks showing album art to a driver should be illegal. The car ended up being a stick shift, which I had never driven before so I had to get a friend to pick it up for me and teach me how to drive it. So worth it though: made me a better driver and now I actually enjoy being engaged while driving.

KineticLensman
I had a Saab 9-3 with Black Panel; it was awesome and I loved it. Basically when you pressed the Black Panel button on the dash every light inside the car and on the dash went out, except for the speedometer, and that only displayed the 'cake slice' with the needle in it (in approx 30mph slices). If you increased your speed into the next slice then that came on as well. If something like a low-fuel warning happened, then that light would come on as required. IIRC the radio controls stayed illuminated as well. It made for an amazingly immersive zero-distractions driving experience when driving country roads at night.

That Saab made 210k miles, a good part of the three-times-to-the-moon distance I've driven throughout my life.

watwut
If you understand what the car does and why, then you are fully able to set up up to your liking. And also, cars behavior ceases to be random. In any case, if that car is breaking for suddenly often, then it is either malfunctioning or the driver is driving excessively aggressively.
freetime2
For what it’s worth, I actually appreciate most of the safety features on my 2021 Toyota Alphard.

The power sliding doors and rear gate move slowly, but not to the point I’ve ever found it annoying. With kids getting in and out, I wouldn’t want it to be any faster. And unlike in the article, they don’t stop until they actually encounter resistance - which worked fine the one time my kid closed the door on me when I was fetching something out of the back seat.

The proximity sensors do beep pretty loudly every time I get near an obstacle - which is frankly more often than not when parking, and my wife does find it pretty annoying. But it’s a large car, and visibility around the front and rear corners is not great - so I appreciate having an extra audio cue when I’m approaching an obstacle. Often my goal is to get as close as possible to said obstacle when parking (wall, fence, etc) - so my cue to stop is when it finally plays the long sustained beep to let me know that impact is imminent.

I’ve only had automatic breaking engage a few times. Mostly when I back into a parking space too fast and it thinks I’m going to crash - which is easy enough to avoid by going a bit slower. Once it engaged while I was stopped at a traffic light due to a massive downpour which I guess confused the proximity sensor. That was annoying, and could have been worse if I were actually moving, but I just turned it off with a button on the dashboard and carried on.

I find lane keeping assistance (which engages automatically with cruise control) to be incredibly useful on highways, and while it does get wonky sometimes in heavy snow or around construction sites, the car is pretty good about disengaging the feature automatically when it gets confused and makes a ding to let me know. At that point I’ll usually just turn it off manually with a button on the steering wheel until conditions improve. The article mentions needing to keep applying force to the steering wheel even when stopped, but my car doesn't require that.

There’s also a lane departure warning that engages if I cross over a lane divider without signaling first, which plays two short beeps and applies some force to the steering wheel. But easy enough to override if I continue applying force, and most of the time it’s my fault for not signaling properly anyway.

Doors do automatically lock themselves again after a while, but it’s nowhere close to 15 seconds like in the article. It’s maybe happened once or twice and no big deal to unlock again. On the other hand there have been times when I have unlocked my car because I wanted to grab something, and then got distracted and never actually visited it. In these cases I’m glad to have it lock itself again vs. remaining unlocked for several hours.

My car does play a chime at startup, but it’s not unpleasant, and I’m so used to my now that I have stopped noticing it.

I don't have tire pressure sensors - but my mother had a car with this feature many years ago and they were indeed prone to false alarms. She took it to the dealer several times to fix it, and the dealer pretty much acknowleged that they were garbage. Not sure if she ever got it fixed permanently or just learned to ignore it.

Anyway - I know that a lot of this stuff varies by manufacturer and model, so I’m not saying my experience is universal. But for anyone asking who actually appreciates this stuff - I do. Staying safe is really important to me, and whatever annoyance the safety systems in my car cause is easily offset by their benefit. I certainly wouldn’t want to go back in time to before safety assistance features existed.

leetcrew
I don't doubt that the author's car is every bit as frustrating as described, but not all new cars are like that.

I got a new bmw last year, and before I left the lot, some 20 yo "genius" from the dealership sat down with me and went through every menu in the infotainment to set it up how I wanted and turn off all the annoying driver assistance features. that took the better part of an hour, and to be honest, a slight twinge of buyer's remorse began to set in.

but since then, I haven't changed a thing (okay, I've changed the thermostat about once per season). I'm exactly the kind of person who loves to hate on this kind of thing, but I can't. the car behaves exactly how I want, and it's a lovely way to cruise around town, eat up miles on the freeway, occasionally tear up backroads, etc. the one minor frustration is that I can't permanently turn off the engine auto stop/start, but I'm guessing bmw's hands are tied on that one.

bborud
The last time I was on a business trip to Germany I had ordered a small econobox, but when I got to the airport I was "upgraded" (of course they didn't have the car I'd actually reserved) to some huge M-series, "luxury" SUV the size of Belgium.

I really don't get BMW. You're in Germany. You are going to drive on the Autobahn. It is likely you will spend most of your time going somewhere between 130km/h and 200+ on the Autobahn. Occasionally there is work done on the Autobahn. Then why the hell does BMW make driver's aids that needlessly create dangerous situations when it encounters double road markings? It's not like they are uncommon in Germany.

I wasn't aware that the driver's aids were even on. And suddenly the shitbox decides we had better follow the markings that lead into the guardrail so I have to yank the suicidal, teutonic, plastic battle tank off its intercept course and point it back on the open road ahead.

watwut
> t is likely you will spend most of your time going somewhere between 130km/h and 200+ on the Autobahn.

Overwhelming majority of cars on Autobahn is driving 130 and lower on unlimited sections. The speed limit on other sections is 120 or lower - they have signs everywhere.

The 200km/h use case is not what drivers in Germany do majority of the time.

MagnumOpus
There's the majority of drivers, and then there's the people with BMW M-series :-)

(yes, yes you are right, half the autobahn has speed limits.)

BHSPitMonkey
I stopped reading the article about 4 headings in because neither my new 2023 car nor my partner's nearly decade-old car (still new enough to have a keyless ignition) suffer from these problems (or the complaints are just silly and I don't agree with them).

- The doors re-lock after a remote unlock if you don't actually use the doors, but most cars with smart keys these days simply open without you needing to use the remote at all anyway (handy if you're wrangling groceries or children as the OP mentions), and the timeout is obviously less about being chased by thieves and more about keeping an accidental remote press from leaving the car unlocked indefinitely. - The slow closing action of a powered hatch is a fairly obvious safety decision (still fast enough in my experience to justify the tradeoff of having it open for you).

pests
> but most cars with smart keys these days simply open without you needing to use the remote at all anyway

Friends new car supposedly has this feature but yet 9 times out of 10 we stand around the car for 10 seconds clicking the handles until frustration causes the fob to come out.

nucleardog
Yeah the quality definitely seems to vary by manufacturer.

My wife's vehicle would work about half the time, only after a delay. More annoyingly, the fob only seemed to work like 1/10 of the time. Dealer replaced some sensors, swapped things around, did all sorts of stuff... never worked quite right.

My car has never _not_ opened. It responds immediately every single time. I stick my hand in and it's unlocked before I can pull the handle. I've not had to think about unlocking my doors in more than half a decade to the point where if I do stick my hand in and it doesn't open, my immediate thoughts are "do I actually have the key? is the car's battery flat?".

Replaced my wife's vehicle with the same brand as mine, works flawlessly and consistently now.

MaxikCZ
What brand?
pentae
You're describing a luxury car maker that understands its customers get pissed off very easily and don't like being told what to do. Even the chimes in a BMW/Mercedes are quite pleasant compared to the ear-ringing DING DING DING you get on affordable passenger cars like Toyotas.

I rented a Toyota corolla cross a while back and it wouldn't even allow us (in my case my passenger) operate the touch screen while moving. I had to physically stop the car so my passenger could program in a new map location! What happens if you're on the highway and can't stop?! We found the way to circumvent this way to use the phone to operate Carplay instead. But it still made my blood boil being locked out of such critical functionality because the car thinks it knows whats safer in the situation than I do.

Want to reverse? DING DING DING DING endlessly.

And every single time we parked the car and i opened the drivers side door DING DING DING DING endlessly for the crime of turning off the engine until the door was closed. Every time I got out of the car I was pissed off from the sensory assault.

Despite the great gas mileage and great hybrid tech, it was unbelievable how annoying that Toyota was. Going back to my BMW felt like going from a noisy flea market to a quiet luxury hotel that doesn't judge you and let's you live your life.

xyzelement
Inreresting, my '21 Toyota does not lock me out of using the screen. But anyway I've learned it's much faster to engage with Android Auto or Car Play via voice. My steering wheel has a button that makes the car "listen" and then I simply say android assistant-like commands eg "navigate to ____" "send message to _____" "gas stations along my route" "Play Wheels on the Bus" etc.
BoorishBears
> Even the chimes in a BMW/Mercedes are quite pleasant compared to the ear-ringing DING DING DING you get on affordable passenger cars like Toyotas.

Fun fact: many BMWs also have Rolls Royce chimes on their ECUs because of the shared parts, and they're one hidden setting change away from being enabled

They sound even nicer and more relaxing, as you'd expect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVVdI5C-t0g

rapnie
> they're one hidden setting change away from being enabled

A link to how to do that? I found this, which is much more involved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTNhjdjPyvM

(Buy iPhone app, special connector cable, and bunch of exact instructions to follow)

BoorishBears
That's how you access hidden settings on the ECUs in a BMW: although you don't need a paid app, the OEM software is pretty freely shared these days
woobar
> I'm guessing bmw's hands are tied on that one

I don't think there is a regulatory requirement to keep it enabled. I have a fresh one ('23) and it remembers my last selection. The previous one I had to code to force it remember my preference. If it is that annoying consider coding - it got ridiculously easy to do.

pentae
It's to do with the EPA rating. If the car maker allows auto start/stop to be turned off permanently then the ratings agency will test the car again with it turned off then combine the two results into their score. Having a slightly worse EPA mileage across their fleets is probably bad for sales and pleasing governments
aqfamnzc
What do you mean by coding?
woobar
There are tools for BMWs (and Minis) that allow to override some settings and enable some features that are not offered on a specific market. You will need a ~$20 OBD cable and an app to code your changes. For instance, BimmerCode [1] has samples of what could be changed on their website.

[1] https://bimmercode.app/

jacquesm
Flash or NVRAM configuration change using some CAN bus software (often manufacturer specific).
callalex
If you are regularly engaging the automatic braking or even warning, you and your driving habits really are the problem. It’s quite trivial to slow down and leave adequate braking distance when driving on public roads. Not every journey is judged down to the hundredth of a second.

I have a relatively large sample size of drivers I’ve talked to about this. None of the careful, normal drivers complain about collision warnings because they never experience them. Several of my Driver™ friends complain about such warnings with passion.

klyrs
> If you are regularly engaging the automatic braking or even warning, you and your driving habits really are the problem.

Nonsense. I live near a fenced parking lot next to a highway. When I gently back out of a spot at 2km/h, approaching the fence, my car slams on the brakes. Because a car is driving down the highway. Not toward me. Not on the shoulder. But almost two lanewidths away, and behind a fence.

No. I can't "slow down and leave adequate braking distance" to ameliorate this. I try to avoid that side of the lot, but sometimes I can't. I need to wait for a lull in traffic. Because the automatic system on my almost brand-new car is hot garbage.

sethammons
What if you reverse into the spot, and pull out nose first?
rconti
This is a bad take if you haven't driven every single car on the market in order to inform yourself.

I agree most of them are surprisingly good -- the forward collision warning system on my Golf R only made a few mistakes in the 3 years I owned it, and they were all "understandable" mistakes where the tech clearly didn't understand why it was 'wrong' -- eg, I refused to lift throttle because I knew the car in front of me was about to accelerate due to the light which had just turned green, or I elected not to brake because the car cutting in front of me was swooping across two lanes so it wasn't worth panicking about.

The system on my Model 3 is GREAT, but only when set to "late" ; my aunt's car was constantly hassling her until I found the setting and moved it from normal to late.

But there are other such annoying automated systems -- my Golf had a REAR collision warning which would fully engage the brakes if you were reversing down your driveway while a car was driving down the street behind you. I suppose it wanted me to wait until the road had NO traffic before daring to reverse on my own private property.

Also, some cars try to overthink things for you. I've driven vehicles where if you drive in a spirited manner, lifting off the throttle abruptly and engaging the brakes quickly but not aggressively, it decides you MUST want to perform a panic stop and doubles the brake pressure. I think most of us can agree that we want our machines to perform in a reliable and consistent manner and not have basic controls second guess us?

Swizec
> my Golf had a REAR collision warning which would fully engage the brakes

I once had a rental engage full brakes when reversing out of a parking spot because a shadow fell across the rear camera. Car stopped so violently I thought I hit something. Nearly shat my pants.

bonton89
I've had the forward panic braking go off from a medium sized bird flying by on the highway and once as I came down from a bump the nose must of dipped enough that it identified the unobstructed ground and freaked out.

I actually leave this system on though as it general doesn't have many false positives. I turned off the suicidal lane keep feature almost immediately as that was trying for force me into potholes and debris on the road in its zeal to maintain the lane position. Completely insane.

The most irritating thing is that if there is dirt on the car it disables itself. Which means it doesn't work during half the winter due to road salt. The same goes for the backup camera, I feel like it needs a mini wiper!

blep_
I like how you disagree with the parent comment suggesting you drive very aggressively, and then nearly every example you give of the car being wrong is a direct result of you driving very aggressively.
barrkel
Lifting off the throttle and on to the brakes quickly but gently is a natural safety decision if your going fast on a motorway and someone slower changes into your lane up ahead.

This is the primary reason for emergency brake assist kicking in for me in my car, Skoda Superb (VW group so similar software). It's only ever happened on the Autobahn where there can be higher speed differentials. It's a bit annoying when it does, but it's all controllable.

Other than that, I find my car's safety stuff pretty good. Lane assist isn't intrusive, traction control is functional (car is 4WD 280hp), warning tones are relevant and customizable, etc.

somehnguy
None of their examples were aggressive, let alone very aggressive. To me just sounds like someone who knows how to drive a little better than most.
toss1
umm, nope.

The two current cars in the family both have exactly the same bugs with their "collission warning" (and some unique ones). They both will consistently issue the RED-FLASH!+BEEP!!+BEEP!!+BRAKE (sometimes), when driving around a turn with a car or especially truck parked on the outside road shoulder. The car cannot figure out that I'm not going straight into the "obstacle", and so warns me. Too late for me to actually do anything about it if I were to actually be heading straight into the parked obstacle, but it goes right ahead. The only possible benefit is if it is also silently pre-tensioning the belts & priming the airbags, but it could do that without the histrionics.

Both cars also far too often will alert on mere cracks or patches in the road ahead, with no obstacles.

There are other times they mis-alert in their own ways or randomly, and it isn't often enough to dump the cars, but it is definitely bad. The warnings are also timed so as to be absolutely useless were it an actual emergency, and I say that as a qualified & championship-winning road-racing driver who has at least better than average situational awareness & reaction times. I can say absolutely that if this "warning system" were to be my first alert to an emergency, there is no way I could take effective action in time.

So I have no idea who are the clueless wankers designing and implementing it; it is evidently for only their own self-satisfaction to justify their existence. Sad.

_jal
You clearly don't drive on 101.
callalex
I do, constantly. Someone entering the lane in front of you does not mean that you lost today’s commute. It’s not a competition.
sushisource
I think this take is pretty BS. I'm not claiming sainthood or anything, but I don't drive like an insane person either, and every time I've driven a Tesla (which is at least semi often, my parents own one) it just goes HAM beeping at all sorts of shit, and it jerked the wheel weirdly on me at least once when it seemed to get terribly confused about what was actually a lane or not.

Moral of the story, the features are far from perfect, and I would prefer the number of times the car moves the wheel for me to be 0.

Klonoar
> and it jerked the wheel weirdly on me at least once when it seemed to get terribly confused about what was actually a lane or not

Not in a Tesla, but I've rented 3 cars as of late where driving through construction zones with shifting lanes caused the wheel to jerk constantly as it thought I was leaving a lane.

I'm aware enough to catch it and so on, but man it does not come across as a safe feature in that regard. I would be curious to see what amount of testing is done for this scenario, since construction is a common enough thing to encounter.

fiddlerwoaroof
For both my Tesla model 3 and my Honda Odyssey, I turn all the alerts on and have adjusted my driving until I don’t routinely get them. One thing I’ve noticed is just how bad the typical driver is at maintaining a safe following distance: the recommended “2 or 3 second following distance” one finds in things like the California driver’s handbook (and Texas’s as well as just about every drivers ed course I’ve seen) is several times longer than the typical following distance in most of the U.S.
zbrozek
I regularly drive down a gently curving 25 mph road. Every single time I do, the collision warning comes on because it thinks I'm going to go straight and not follow the road. It's so repeatable that I pause my podcasts in anticipation of the bleating warning.
callalex
I’ll grant you that one, my 2015 Honda predictably does that on some low-speed turns, but I have pieced together that the triggering factor is retro-reflective stickers/indicators on utility poles or road markers that seem to trick the radar into thinking an object on the side of the road is larger than reality.
wernercd
Is it because of the "older" tech? 2015 is "ancient" for these things and difference between 2015, 2020 and 2023 from what I've seen is pretty massive as tech has changed at a dizzying pace.

my 2020 civic seems to do okay but I get those issues only on occasion. Newer tech would be more stable I think. Only been driving it ~3 months.

zbrozek
The regular false positives are so annoying that I sometimes fantasize about removing the camera, then remind myself that it's a leased vehicle and that I only have to endure it for ten more months. Some folks don't mind getting dinged at incessantly, but I have sympathy for people who dislike being constantly techno-nannied or notified to death.
jacquesm
Sticker in a strategic spot?
stronglikedan
When you're not renting them, the time spent learning how to use them is trivial compared to the time spend using them. A lot of those features are nice to have.
olyjohn
But here's the thing I don't get. People don't learn how to use them. They won't read the manuals or give a shit. You, reading the manual and learning the car, are the exception.

I can't count how many times I've ridden with someone in a new car, and they're like "I dunno..." Or I tell them about some feature they didn't even know the car had. It boggles my mind that you'd spend so much on some fancy vehicle and not try to get your money's worth.

xyzelement
//People don't learn how to use them. They won't read the manuals or give a shit.

It's the psychological concept of "maximizing vs satisficing" The former means to squeeze out the most of some item/experience while the later means being totally good once a thing is "good enough." We maximize or satisfice on different topics.

So I read the manual and I know stuff about our car that my wife doesn't. But because the car is safe, fast, and comfortable - it's maxing our her pleasure even if she doesn't know that some setting exists.

emberfiend
satisfice isn't a word fyi

I think you might be conflating "satisfy" (as in "that satisfies my needs") with "suffice" (as in "that's good enough, it suffices for my purposes").

xyzelement
I love your confidence :) The other dude already linked to the dictionary, I am just amused that it was easier for you to make up a mental model my thinking rather than right-click to learn a new word!
jstanley
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing
dekhn
I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but I read the manual for my car (it's next to my toilet) and have navigated through every configuration menu in the various consoles.

Even then I still had to watch a few videos to figure out how to change my charging rate. It was hidden behind a number of hard-to-find settings and is disabled (silently) in many car modes (basically you can only change it when you're in "car on but motors not running and not charging")

garciansmith
True, less an issue if you're the owner, and most can be turned off. And some of my comment is just me being baffled at the things people are ok with. Some people feel safer when the car brakes when it's X distance from one in front on a freeway, but a car not doing what I want to at all times freaks the hell out of me, even when it's fairly predictable.

But I still find there are still tons of issues. People also get used to some of the beeps and flashes and don't realize how it breaks their attention, or how long it takes to do simple stuff on a giant touch screen. And I don't want a giant center console screen on when I'm driving a night, but if that screen is the only way I can control, say, the temperature, well then I'll need to go through extra steps and extra distractions.

throwaway092323
This. Any friction between the user and controls that affect safety is a serious flaw. Old cars don't make me look at a screen to make the window less foggy.
_gabe_
My 2019 Honda Accord doesn’t make me look at a screen to turn on defrost. But it does have a screen conveniently placed with directions and a map! And that screen reads my messages to me and even allows me to speak a response without ever taking my eyes off the road!

There are plenty of modern cars with a very pleasant mix of tactile controls for things like AC, radio, defrost, etc, while also having lane keep, cruise control auto distance thing, and a screen with a map. There’s a ton of new technology that I love in my newer car, and I’m very glad I’m not driving my crappy 2004 CRV anymore.

Edit: I forgot about the backup camera. The backup camera is also amazing. It gives me way more visibility then just trying to look out my window, and it gives me visibility if I’m parked between giant cars.

throwaway092323
I don't disagree that modern features can be useful, nor do I disagree that some modern cars do it right. I'm saying that one car making the user say "pretty please" before disabling a distraction is one too many.
1970-01-01
Pointing out how the author wants "a means to transport kids and their associated heaps of stuff around in a safe and relaxed manner" and yet cries when devices designed to prevent more guts and blood from spilling sound in alarm.
Night_Thastus
I recently got a 2023 Toyota Corolla. I've got my say my experience has mostly been the opposite, but I don't have the blind-spot alert or an auto-closing trunk.

The closest thing I've encountered is mentioned here - the tire pressure alert is way too sensitive. Drop 1-2PSI below the nominal (which happens the moment the temperature drops) and it complains on startup. But it's brief and easy to ignore.

Otherwise, it's been great! It never whines at me and does what I want.

The lane keep assist still requiring input on stop is bizarre. Glad mine doesn't do that!

Also: Fwiw, I think most collision detection systems immediately turn off the lane-keep-assist if something like that is detected to be about to occur. Plus, it doesn't 'fight' you very hard, if you put in any force at all it overrides it - at least on mine.

mrweasel
> The closest thing I've encountered is mentioned here - the tire pressure alert is way too sensitive

That one annoys me to no end. I have a Renault and a Hyundai, but have tire pressure sensors that trigger when the weather changes, if you turn to fast or just at random. The pressure sensors have so many false alarms that I no longer believe them, so they've become pointless... well an annoyance. I've asked if they can be disabled, but no. It's actually kinda dangerous, I could be going 130kph and ignore the pressure warning, because the car has trained me to assuming that the sensor is wrong.

The Hyundai have another incredibly dangerous feature, a loud "BING" when road temperatures hit 4C. So again you're going 80 - 130kph and then "BING" all your attention is drawn away from the road. I know it's cold, it's cold for 6 month of the year. You're stealing my attention at the EXACT point where you know that the road could be icy, brilliant.

sokoloff
My old Jeep had a similar warning (and I think my LEAF does as well, but I’m not 100%).

It’s a chime, not a klaxon. I don’t find it the least bit difficult to prioritize it correctly (any more than alerts on some rental cars suggesting me to take a break after X minutes of driving).

I also suspect it’s a net win for safety, given the overall level of clueless disconnectedness I see in steering wheel holders.

Night_Thastus
Mine only warns on startup if conditions may be icy, with a little logo and some text. It stops past that point.

Yeah, making a loud "bing" sounds pretty annoying.

Pxtl
I have a 2020 Prius Prime and the antediluvian infotainment system that reminds me of a mid-oughts GPS is the only real flaw with its software. Like, start the car and then wait because I'm not allowed to touch the GPS when I'm in motion and it needs like half a minute to boot up to the point where I can actually enter a destination.

Otherwise I like the UI. The pair of thumb-menu navigators on the steering wheel are great, I basically only have to touch the touchscreen for GPS.

Gare
Blind-spot alert is very handy, but mine doesn't beep at all. Just inobtrusive yellow lights on A-pillars. If you signal a turn and there is a vehicle beside you, it flashes.

If it beeped I would've gone mad too.

So overall, it seems some manufactures integrated the new tech well, some did it poorly.

jwiz
You can set your mirrors to effectively have no blind spots.

https://www.aarp.org/auto/driver-safety/car-mirrors-blind-sp...

If a car comes up on the left lane (while I am in right), I can see it in rearview, then sidemirror + rearview, then in peripheral vision, the whole time.

It is possible a very small and fast unicycle could find a place to hide, but a normal size car can't.

benj111
Depends on the car, my current car has a car sized blind spot.
chmod775
This had me wheezing. I'd love to read more in this style, but sadly that's their only post.
isoprophlex
Thanks :) I'm taking that as encouragement to rant more in the future.

Anyway I'm glad you got a laugh out if this. I stream-of-consciousness vomited this into a text file to test drive the mataroa blogging platform (highly recommended) -- I tried static blog generators (hugo, jekyll) but they were too clunky and took the joy out of writing. I discovered this solution through that person who posts all the spicy rants about the tech industry who's been pretty trendy on HN lately.

[] https://ludic.mataroa.blog/

MilStdJunkie
They can pry my 2005 Scion xB from my cold dead hands for this exact reason. Insanely light, manual shifter, manual everything, timing CHAIN, 30+ mpg, more internal space than a SUV, looks ridiculous. Check, check, and check.

Mid nineties to mid aughts are the absolute high point for me, where you get all the technology but none of the heinous "you rent all your things" features that smear newer vehicles. The downside is dodging the mid-aughts quality hangover Honda seemed to have suffered in the period - really just fit and finish, but still annoying - and more importantly the long train of suck that was Hyundai Theta/Gamma family engines and derivatives. Hyundai reached a leeeetle too far in the late aughts, with some sci-fi internal combustion tricks, but oof, that was a hard pill after their fantastic Delta V6s.

Grazester
I was about to ask how much oil does that Scion burn but realized it was the Tc that used the 2AZ with those terrible piston rings.
leokennis
It's the same with home automation. Spending hours a month babysitting/updating/fixing/configuring it, to shave off valuable seconds otherwise spent on turning on lights or AirPlaying some music.
heywire
I loved my 2006 xB (thunder cloud metallic, manual transmission). It was the first new car I purchased. Traded it in a couple years later and regretted it.
ourmandave
I have an 06 xB with the same bullet proof 1.5L, but an automatic CVT transmission.

I'm jealous, because the manual has actual gears that will last forever.

(I should buy another one and garage it until this one blows up at 300K+.)

wkjagt
This is why I absolutely love my 1993 Miata. Every control is physical/mechanical. Whenever I use my wife's 2017 minivan, I'm reminded of that. Even changing the radio station requires going through a menu. The one I listen to is on page 2 of the presets, and the UI is so slow that changing station becomes a planned multi-step activity. Eyes off the road / find next page button / eyes back on road while page changes / eyes off the road to find preset 8 / eyes back in the road. In my Miata I can change the radio station without looking (but ironically, I never listen to the radio in it).

We ordered a Ioniq 5, and I hope it's better, but I'm not looking forward to it.

Lio
I’d go a bit latter. I like my 2015 Golf.

The telemetry has long since stopped working but I’m left with is a car with adaptive cruise control and between 50-80mpg (imperial).

Record was 82mpg after following a lory on a 150 mile motorway run.

It’s still got useful satnav, infotainment systems and all the safety features I’m aware of.

It even has nice little touches like the self-dimming rear-view mirror, for when you’ve got a berk with full-beams on driving up your arse at night.

I’d miss that stuff on an older car.

I can afford to get a new car every year if I wanted but modern cars are annoying and creepy.

I have no idea what I’d replace it with so I just keep it running.

sandos
My 2015 Passat is of course very similar. It has in a way the perfect amount of features, regular backup cam, parking sensors all around, acc. Actually ours don't even have satnav and I don't care since it has Android Auto. Id like this car but EV, please.

It is a diesel though so I worry a bit about the particle filter clogging, which can be somewhat expensive afaik.

dontlaugh
I have a similar Polo. No telemetry, cameras, satnav, etc. Just normal cruise control and CarPlay.
willtemperley
Agreed on 2015 being the peak - I have a Mazda 6 which has similar mpg and is big enough to be a stealth camper.

The only contrivance I could do without is keyless ignition, which provides an effective attack vector for thieves and the ability to lose the keys while driving.

A mobile phone in works well to augment the aging infotainment / satnav, the only issue being UK law is unclear on whether it's allowable to touch a phone in a cradle. The police say you cannot touch your phone when driving and lawyers say you are only banned from using a handheld device, which a phone in a cradle is not.

hermitcrab
I've had 2 Mazda 6's. Great cars, but the second one had keyless ignition, which I found really annoying. If I am leaving something valuable in the boot (trunk) I want to try the door handle to check the car is locked. But as soon as you walk up to the car it unlocked. I would have to give the key to a family member and have them walk away first. Grrr.
heywire
My 2016 CX-5 has settings for keyless entry in the infotainment system. Wonder if the 6 does also?
willtemperley
Very annoying. You can get it keyless entry disabled on the car I believe.
RF_Savage
The more time goes on, the more 1998 being the height of human civilization in The Matrix starts making sense.

I certainly wonder how repairable cars will be in ten years. Or will they further progress down the path where everything is cryptographically serialized and has incompatible firmware versions. So they can only repaired as long as OEM parts and tooling is available. And then nothing.

euroderf
But if you focus on culture and not on tech, can you beat the late 60s ? Project Apollo, Woodstock, Monty Python.
ChrisMarshallNY
Depends on which culture you mean.

I know some folks that can attest to the 1960s being a bit challenging.

euroderf
Point taken.
geek_at
You just have to wait until fairphone starts building electric cars
hollerith
A friend used to have a 2004 Scion, and I know what you mean.
barbazoo
I think you may have changed my life. I have never seen this car before. It took me a couple of minutes to be able to appreciate it. But zooming in on the tech, it looks very electric, vs electronic. The infotainment system is modular, how awesome is that.
jstarfish
> It took me a couple of minutes to be able to appreciate it.

You're saying that based on specs! To really appreciate a Scion, you have to drive one-- they're nothing special compared to EVs now, but for ICE vehicles they're pleasantly zippy.

Tade0
Scion was such a weird brand.

The Scion iM for instance was supposed to be some kind of cool, young people car, while its European counterpart - the Auris (which I drive in its station wagon incarnation) is a sleepy mom car/taxi for the city.

stronglikedan
Nit, but it only has as much internal space as a compact SUV, because that's essentially what it is, just without the "S".
MilStdJunkie
Oh it's a compact. That xB is like the length of a Mini, but you got this cave inside because each wheel is perched at each corner, maximizing usable space. It's insane. It's like someone took an Econoline van and hit it with a shrink ray.

It's definitely bigger inside than the wife's 4Runner, but yknow . . I guess a 4runner is a "small" SUV these days, huh?

Honda Element is probably the closest thing to it I can think of, but it's a much bigger/beefier car, not the subcompact the xB is. I would love to get a Kei van if they could pull highway speeds.

Damn shame they ruined the xB post-2006, but ah well the writing would soon be on the wall for all of Scion in general. Poor Scion.

dontlaugh
I was going to say a Mini is far smaller, but apparently the current generation ones are almost 4m long. I was still assuming the 3.65m original BMW Mini.
TylerE
I am mostly with you, but preferring a timing chain to a timing belt is... interesting. Virtually every engine I know with a chain ends up either regularly failing early, or requiring early (and labor intensive, and thus expensive) unscheduled replacement off all the tensioners, etc.
yason
Timing chains used to be a non-service item. Robust metal chain that runs well-oiled inside clean conditions inside the engine: there's not much wear that happens there in the first place.

Then they started reducing the amount of material they could minimally require in order to still produce something resembling a chain. Newer chains are narrower, made of thinner steel, lighter in all aspects, you name it -- all in the name of reducing drag and friction, and thus the relative load on the chain increases and the strength of the links and pins decrease. Add in chain tensioners adhering to the same philosophy. Bang! We have timing chain failures.

If you want ultimate resilience, get a car with non-interference valvetrain. Doesn't matter if the timing breaks up, you'll just install a new chain/belt and continue.

MilStdJunkie
It's a general rule, and it's mostly because I can tell when the chain's wearing down. If the belt is accessible, it's also not as big a deal.

As with all things, the build quality and overall design will overrule single atomized design decisions. GM iron dukes have geared cams, which should be frickin' bulletproof, but they use a nylon spindle that tends to blow apart under variable load or just using weird fluids.

Fradow
To be honest, that depends on the engine itself.

For example, on BMW Minis, which all have timing chains:

- 1st gens Minis (2002 -> 2006 roughly), with Chrysler engines, have a bulletproof engine, and replacing the timing chain is a rare occurrence

- 2nd gens Mini (2007 -> 2013 roughly) with PSA engines modified by BMW have a suicidal engines, especially the pre-LCI (2007 -> 2009) engines, that are known to often break timing chain guides. The symptom for that is named "death rattle", which is chain slap.

- 3nd gens Mini (2014 -> 2022 roughly) with BMW engines are so far known to be pretty bulletproof. Note that some of them now have high mileage with no large-scale issues.

So a well-designed engine with a timing chain is preferable to a timing belt. But a timing belt is preferable to a problematic engine with a timing chain, which will break at the most inconvenient time and leave you with an unexpected large bill.

whichfawkes
I've only ever heard people prefer chains.
wigglewoggle
Chains usually have no service interval, so at the outset they seem cheaper and more reliable. But the unfortunate reality is they still fail, or something related to keeping them on fails, you just live in a false sense of security for a few 10's of thousands of km more
Hamuko
And since they're not meant to be serviced on a regular interval, they're designed that way too. A timing chain might be over four times the expense to replace when compared to a timing belt, but possibly without actually lasting over four times long.
TylerE
The good old “lifetime” part. Just like the “lifetime” fluid in most newer automatic trans.
neoromantique
I've had two bmw e39's with a m57 engines, and these chains last literally forever. One of my engines has over 500k clocked on it, no chain rattle still.

Buuuuut, there's also modern Opel engines where timing chain is guaranteed to kill the engine if not replaced every 100k km.

So it really depends on the engine rather being simple chain vs belt.

Hamuko
I think the BMW N47 and Mercedes-Benz M271 are infamous for timing chain issues.
genter
Care to share some? Because that's the exact opposite of my experience. I've never heard of a chain itself failing, but the plastic guides can get brittle and break. I think BMW and some Fords are bad at that.

I've owned several high mileage vehicles (over 300k) including Toyota 22RE, 3RZ, and Chevy LS with their original timing chain. Now that I think about it, does the LS even have a tensioner or chain guide?

fransje26
Oh, the chains themselves can fail, in a quite a dramatic fashion, flying through your engine hood.. But that tends to happen well after the mileage they were designed for.

They are by no means immortal, but, by design, should have a much longer lifespan than belts.

> Virtually every engine I know with a chain ends up either regularly failing early [..]

But I have no idea which early-failing models OP is referring to, as the engines I know about where quite reliable. (As in 1e6+ km reliable, with chain maintenance per manufacturer guidelines.)

globular-toast
VW had a few years making cars with chains that would catastrophically fail. Lots of destroyed engines. It was the EA888 put in Golf GTIs from 2010 and on. After like 5 or something revisions they finally improved the tensioner that caused the failure.

Previous gen GTI was a belt. Garage told me they preferred belts because people know they need to replace those. People aren't expecting to be told your chain needs to be replaced plus it's much more expensive and labour intensive.

Never heard of Honda having problems with chains, though. Some of their motorbikes even had gear driven cams! (VFR I think).

samtho
Can confirm, have a 2012 GTI, replaced the stretched chain on it about 10 days ago. The problem is that they provided no service interval for the timing chain when it really needs replacement every 80K miles. It’s an enthusiast car so there are a ton of aftermarket parts that are of good quality and VAG cars share so many parts (the 2.0T e888 engine is in a ton of vehicles from 2008 through today). My car has 211K and I intend to take it well over 300K.
jdietrich
Belts tend to fail abruptly and catastrophically, but generally only if they're neglected and used well beyond their design life. Chains fail more insidiously, because they get longer over time. The pins eat away at the plates, increasing the spacing between the rollers. This isn't immediately noticeable, because the timing sprockets will wear to match the altered dimensions of the chain. Worn chains cause all sorts of subtle timing problems and the lifespan of a chain is much less predictable, because it's highly dependent on lubrication; missed oil changes or poor oil quality will drastically accelerate chain wear.

From an enthusiast's perspective, a chain is probably preferable, because it tends to give you some warning before it fails - you might hear a rattle at idle, you might have problems with starting or misfires, you might get a check engine light and an EBD-II code from the timing sensors. That's a much less scary prospect than the potential for a sudden and catastrophic failure of a timing belt.

From a manufacturer or dealership's perspective, belts have some clear advantages. Unless there was a manufacturing defect in the belt, they'll almost never cause trouble if replaced according to schedule. That has obvious liability implications - it's not their fault if the customer ignores the specified replacement interval, but it potentially is their fault if a chain wears faster than expected. BMW, VAG and Jaguar Land Rover have all recently settled class action lawsuits related to the premature failure of timing chains.

Moru
I'm more of a hobby bicycle mechanic. Isn't there some similar tool for the meassuring of the chain as you get for bicycles? Just push it down and you directly see if it's time to change the chain. If not done early enough you have to change all the sprockets too because of wear. If done in time, you might not have to change all the sprockets.
jdietrich
You can measure it with an ordinary caliper, but the problem is getting access. The timing chain needs to be continuously supplied with oil, so it is in rather than on the engine and can rarely be accessed without pulling the engine from the car. It takes several hours just to access the chain for inspection, so it's not something you'd periodically check - if you suspect a timing chain problem, you might as well replace it.
CarVac
The gen 2 Prius has a timing chain and it's one of the most reliable vehicles of all time.
mauvehaus
To your list of highly desirable features, I'd add four wheel disc brakes. I was pretty over the moon when we sold off the last car in the household with drums on the rear. Drums are a pain in the ass. Maybe they're not too bad if you deal with them often enough, but discs are simpler by miles.

...And then we bought a '47 Willys Jeep a year later. Which has 4 wheel drums. And the worlds least conveniently located master cylinder.

Moru
Oh, I can't remember a single car me or my father had that had drum brakes anywhere else than on the handbrake. How old cars are we talking about? The oldest I can remember was SAAB 99, about 50 years old model.
mauvehaus
The last car we had with them (before the Jeep) was a 2005 Honda Civic. It had discs in the front and drums in the rear.
aembleton
My wifes 2016 Skoda Citigo had drums in the rear. My previous car, a 2002 Renault Clio also did.
function_seven
My 2012 Ford Escape has drums in the rear. I’m dreading that brake job.
imp0cat
Well, supposedly drums are better for the environment (less particle pollution when braking), so expect to see more of them, not less.
I_Am_Nous
Is the claim that they produce less particles, or that they distribute less particles because the shoes/drum is more of a closed system? Generally drums are worse brakes than disks so if they don't brake as efficiently, you'd be grinding them for longer, likely making more particles.

I haven't heard much about drums lately except that cheap cars still sometimes have them in the rear.

roflchoppa
I’m sure there is some other modern OEM hub assembly that you could swap in when it comes time to service it. Maybe off a 4Runner/jeep?
wigglewoggle
I share your disdain for drums. Only issue is every four wheel disc vehicle I own still has a drum for the parking brake. Except these days they're electronic and need a scan tool to release them and get the rotor off!
mauvehaus
Electronic drum brakes sound like my personal version of hell. I knew of the existence of electronic parking brakes, but hadn't realized that any car would be silly enough to need a scan tool to release it for service.
jareklupinski
the literal united states federal government had to step in to take my diesel golf away from me
dclowd9901
Mo tech mo problems. My 87 Toyota 4x4, 89 bmw e30, 83 Toyota Land Cruiser and 76 bmw e10 are an effortless joy to drive (for someone with a little mechanical acumen).

I call upon you all: reclaim agency over your driving experience, learn how a carb works, drive a cool classic and cut bullshit tech out of your life (while not contributing to the throwaway culture lithium ion has brought us).

zxexz
Cars from the mid-noughts (the right ones of course! [0]) are the sweet-spot for me. New enough to have modern safety features (like airbags - I know, funny to refer to that as modern) - but still be user-serviceable.

I bought an relatively "bad condition", top of the line (at the time) 4Runner for well less than 10 grand, spent 40 hours of effort on DIY repairs and maintenance over the course of a month. Ended up with a "bulletproof" machine that not only passed inspection - it's a pleasure to drive, is modded to my liking. That 40 hours of effort would have been less than 10 for a seasoned mechanic, and the bill would have brought the total cost of the car to maybe just slightly over $10k.

Finding a physical copy of the service and repair "manual" (it's 8 volumes...) for the exact make, model and year of the car was easy and cost $100. Spent a few hundred on specialized tools, and about 1.5k on parts. The car is old enough that there are several old-school forums with a wealth of knowledge on everything from muffler replacement, rust-removal tactics, to transfer case repair - and those forums are still incredibly active!

Also, now that I'm apparently mind dumping, my personal advice for people living in rust-prone areas (the rust belt, northeast, etc.) - if you can, get a used vehicle from another area. If you can't - fine - but make sure you can inspect the frame rust, do the "hammer check", etc. Remove any rust you can, get an undercoating, and wash regularly (especially during winter). BUT don't be too scared of some frame rust, especially if the price is right. Lots of body-on-frame cars/trucks are actually pretty structurally repairable if you hire a good tech to do the rust cleaning, sawing, and welding. Also, a frame swap is actually quite doable for a few grand if you find a good shop (people do do it themselves but without experience and a full shop it's a pretty dangerous and hardcore endeavor) and are able to source a frame (often less than $1k plus a few hundred in shipping from a scrap yard in the south - or just buy a second used car that's "worthless" for all the reasons yours isn't, and swap that frame).

[0] My experience with cars of this era is mostly with Toyotas and Subarus - both makes are very user-serviceable (IME Subarus are easier, but on average the parts more bespoke and more expensive, Toyotas are more finnicky to work with on average but way cheaper part-wise and way easier to patch together in a pinch). I've worked on a Honda Pilot from that era, it was also a breeze - and tons of DIY-focused car people are "Honda for life". I know a couple people who swear by Nissans from that era, but they caveat that with transmission issues for certain models in certain years (I don't remember which).

mortos
None of those cars have airbags right? Those are all awesome cars but I can't daily something that dangerous
foobarian
Carbs... why? You must be sarcastic or something. How do you deal with carb problems?
TylerE
I know how all that works.

I also know how modern cars are designed to survive collisions. You can keep 'em. I'd consider something like as a fun weekend car, but it's be relegated to rural backroads and track days.

CamperBob2
That reasoning hurts my head. "Those cars are dangerous. I'd like one, too, but only so I could drive it under conditions associated with the highest possible fatality rates per vehicle-mile."
TylerE
Huh? How is a rural road or parking lot with literally no other cars around "the highest possible fatality rate"?

It's not ME that scares me. It's Sally Mae driving a 7 thousand pound Suburban while talking on the phone and putting on make up. She won't even notice anything smaller than a full size sedan.

CamperBob2
Huh? How is a rural road or parking lot with literally no other cars around "the highest possible fatality rate"?

Sure, not many people die in autocross events. It happens, but so rarely it's ignorable.

But you said "track days." That's different. Safety is (ideally) considered a higher priority there, not a lower one.

serf
lack of response during an incident, poor road conditions, little or no flood control, rapidly changing road conditions over timne poor lighting, randomized rural traffic (tractors/goats/whatever), and inconsistent street placement.

rural driving has always been historically pretty dangerous, even on an otherwise empty road.

TylerE
It's a weekend car. It's not going out when it's rainy, and also not at night.
bandyaboot
Bring back carbs and crank starts! I miss the days of getting a free buzz from the gas fumes when walking through a parking lot.
ShadowBanThis01
'96 Mustang Cobra. You couldn't even buy it with an automatic. It doesn't ding about the seat belt, let alone any of this other bullshit.

Pretty soon I won't have to deal with valets because none will know how to drive it. WIN.

On a side note, one day I was driving along listening to a Cubs game on the radio when I realized I was hearing stereo... AM. Ford radios of that era were stereo-AM capable. Now they're getting rid of AM in cars altogether.

Oh yeah, today I had to get a new tire and the guy at the shop reminded me of the most offensive regression in cars yet: NO SPARE TIRE. This should be illegal. Nobody should accept this.

jfoutz
you know, it's weird. I have a Miata. It's not particularly fast, but it's fun to drive. Went on a bit of a road trip over the summer, and parking was tight at one place I stayed, so was valet only.

They had to get a janitor to pull my car around the next day.

I mean, it's a little unusual to need to push the stick down to go into reverse, but I guess it's like secret knowledge now days.

I really love that car. Who knows how things'll go. I hope it'll outlast me.

jackjeff
> I mean, it's a little unusual to need to push the stick down to go into reverse, but I guess it's like secret knowledge now days.

All VWs do that. I quite like it.

Klonoar
I've routinely had to have valets walk me to my car since nobody who's working that day can drive it. As a result, I've - more than a few times now - gotten the hotel to comp the parking since I end up doing the actual parking and retrieval myself.
ShadowBanThis01
And it's an actual sports car. People don't even know what that means anymore.

And regular hatchbacks and station wagons are now "SUVs."

jacquesm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-QUAM
UncleOxidant
> They can pry my 2005 Scion xB from my cold dead hands for this exact reason. Insanely light, manual shifter, manual everything, timing CHAIN, 30+ mpg

Same for my 1998 Honda Civic. It just keeps going&going. Cheap to fix when it breaks down. I'd say late 80s through the 90s were the high point for Honda. I just don't think there will ever be many cars that will be as good & reliable as Hondas from those years. They really set a high bar during that era.

tlavoie
Still delighted with my '09 Civic Si. Has "enough" tech for me, nothing that gets too irritating, and is a blast to drive.

It'll be a dark day when it goes...

governmentdude
That's what engine swaps are for. Just keep shoveling parts at it forever.
redwall_hp
My 2007 Honda Fit has over 200K miles on it and I'm keeping it as long as I can. They discontinued it in the NA market too, unfortunately, even though there's a snazzy looking new model in Japan.

I will inevitably end up with a Civic hatchback.

fragmede
Mine has fewer miles on it, but my hope is that it's like compact smartphones. Honda will keep it out of the North American market for a couple of years just to release one a few years later to pent up demand, just in time for me to get (and be able to afford) a new one. Another bit that gives me hope is that there's an EV version in Japan - Honda isn't on Toyota's hydrogen train.
troyvit
We have one of these too! We call it GOAT (Greatest of All Time) because it just keeps going and going well. There was mention higher up of Hondas having trim issues around this year and yeah, the paint is faded, etc. but it is just unstoppable, and the manual shift is a joy.
grogenaut
Early to mid 2000s are also good and the fit and finish was nicer. Have my mom's 08 tsx and it's still great
drcongo
I've been keeping an eye out for an imported Toyota bB (same car but Japanese domestic market) for my daughter, fantastic little cars.
jonwest
I had one. It is the one car I’ve had that I truly miss. So many clever little features that made it an absolute joy to own and drive. Slow as absolute molasses, but still such a wonderful experience. So spacious for the size, with things like the rear seat adjusting so that you could have more storage area or more rear passenger legroom, which, holy crap, why was that not more widespread?! That car had significantly more legroom than _any_ “midsize” SUV on the market in 2023, certainly more than the Mazda CX50 we ended up getting, which I genuinely thought this article was about because all of the annoyances were ringing true.
Baeocystin
I have a '98 Jeep Grand Cherokee. It's new enough to have well-sorted fuel injection, good AC and heat, old enough to have zero tattletales, nags, and subscriptions. It has the best sightlines, is comfy and roomy on the inside, and frankly relatively compact compared to many of the behemoths on the road today. If it ever dies I'm really going to miss it!
thaumaturgy
2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee here. It gets driven hard so it has some problems, and everyone around me keeps pressuring me to get a new car. I've looked, and I've driven a pile of rentals, and everything is just so awful. I think 2010 is about the latest model year I'd ever go.

So instead I'm getting a really sweet new motor built for mine. Still the same 4.0, but with updated components and a focus on improved efficiency. My target is 25mpg highway. ...and a little bit of hooning around the desert racing circuit maybe. :-)

Even with a fancy motor (and transmission), it'll still be less money than a new replacement vehicle, and most importantly, it won't piss me off all the time. With already-upgraded suspension, steering, and some electronics, it's kinda fun and quite capable.

The only thing I'm really missing is safety. Jeeps are pretty terrible at the moose test to begin with, and 2001 was too early for side curtain airbags. I think I can retrofit 2004 side curtain bags into mine, and I'm redistributing weight in the vehicle that, along with some of the newer electronic suspensions, should improve its highway handling.

jacquesm
I had one of those and while it was a great car in the Canadian North I'd hate to drive in Europe with the gas prices here right now.
downut
They can't pry my 2001 v8 4wd 14mpg[1] Tundra bought new for cash from my cold dead hands because I am seriously thinking of when I die I get laid out in the bed and the whole shebang put in an enormous hole and buried somewhere. I'd prefer if it was hauled out by helicopter over the Pacific somewhere and oops dropped.

125K miles, 3rd suspension, zero problems, manual windows, door locks, seats mirrors, everything. The odometer seems to be digital. It even passes GA emissions now.

[1] It was so... liberating when we started buying Priuses and I discovered I could drive them like race cars and get 44mpg more or less reliably. X-country + urban miles almost all go there. The current 2015 is so comfortably very dumb.

_fat_santa
I have an 2009 4Runner and while it's got more "bells and whistles" (power seats, power windows, power 2WD/4WD switcher), but it's still very much a "dumb" car compared to any relatively modern car with an infotainment system.

I hope Toyota keeps making their cars as dumb as possible. The 4Runner had it's best sales year 10 years after it's redesign and I think that speaks to the market for "dumb" cars.

jacquesm
125K miles (barely broken in for a Tundra) 3rd suspension??? How did that happen?
downut
20 years on the hard 4wd trails of AZ, CA, CO, NM and both MX BCN and Sonora. A couple of hundred miles on the Baja 1000 route with a bed full of camping gear did one suspension in. And there's a lift/helper leaf in there.

Never once left us stranded.

jacquesm
Ah I see. Ok, that makes sense then.
happytiger
Struts and shocks can last maybe 50-100k. If you’re beating the crap out of your truck you might be on the low end of that scale. Maybe that’s what they mean?
dieselgate
My thoughts as well, Maybe they were lifts or something
MilStdJunkie
Nice. 2001 Tundra's a good candidate for "best pickup truck ever made". You might very well get 2x-3x new cost for it on the used market now, but there's absolutely nothing that replaces it, so that makes it a one-way cash thing. Your plan's better.
Mistletoe
My family has been passing our 2001 Tundra around for a very long time now after it retired from being the ranch truck. We call it Ed Truck the red truck. It has 363,000 miles now and I’m the current owner. The engine and whole truck is incredible. I think about how different it must have been made when I think about things like it still being on the original AC compressor and never needing even refrigerant after 363,000 miles and 22 years. Such a testament to the Toyota Way. All the buttons and controls still work, which is very much not the norm after owning many other cars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way

downut
I had been admittedly a bit depressed before the big move across the country and the Tundra had been a bit neglected except for oil changes/tires etc. So after the life reset settled down Mr. Tundra got the full mechanics inspection with me ready to put in Whatever It Takes to make it ready for the next 20 years. And nope! Nothing mechanical needed fixing except for the timing chain. Rats had done their thing but that's just wires and money. I've got brake pads and a spare fan clutch stockpiled. Might replace more of the basic suspension bits if they become noticeable. Two things the mechanic told me that I found surprising is neither the AC nor the cooling system(!) needed maintenance after 22 years.
kickofline
Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/37/
Supermancho
Hyundai Tucson has most of these features, except they aren't rude. There are rude features.

When you park the car and hit the pushbutton start/stop, it locks the back doors. Who thought this was a good idea?

You want to circulate air? (because you are driving by the dump or in traffic) Push a button. It turns back to outside air after a time. Maybe this is to deter people from gassing themselves. What's that say about Hyundai owners, yikes!

Tao3300
I wonder if that's a special feature from the Korean manufacturer, like timers on oscillating fans.
pixl97
Hello Hyundai owner... Evidently you live in a cool environment. When looking online I see this

>That function is called "Automatic Ventilation". Anytime temp is below 59 degrees and recirc is selected for more than 5 min the recirc will automatically change to outside air. However this auto feature can be cancelled. There is a simple procedure outlined in owners manual. It's on page 4/86 in my 2015 Accent owners manual. It's one of those hidden features buried deep in owners manual.

Check your manual and there's likely a way to turn it off.

callalex
I have the opposite air circulation problem with 2013-present Toyota/Lexus models. If you press the pollen filter button (which turns on an ionizer before the filter to make big particles get easily captured by the filter) will automatically set the car to recirculate to help ensure maximum filtration and minimum sneezing. After a few minutes it turns off the ionizer, but also switches back to outside air, throwing away all the carefully cleaned air and triggering a guaranteed sneeze attack after waiting long enough for you to get on the high speed freeway.
pornel
Switching to outside air after a while makes sense — CO2 levels in a small closed space quickly go up, and high CO2 impairs concentration.
callalex
In every car I’ve ever looked into, the baffle that selects between recirculate and windshield intake is intentionally leaky enough to prevent CO2 and moisture buildup even in full recirculate mode.
Johnny555
It turns back to outside air after a time

My mini cooper does the same -- the online consensus seems to be that it does that to prevent moisture buildup inside the car fogging up the windows.

But it sure is annoying during wildfire season when I'm trying to avoid poor air quality outside, I wish they had an override like if you hold the switch down for 5 seconds, it stays in that mode.

lsaferite
The auto-revert on air recirculation is a new one for me. I have a Kia and I'm pretty sure the systems are identical, so I'm going to see if mine does the same.
Rebelgecko
I think the trait I've noticed in my car is that the recirculation turns off if you put the HVAC on "auto".

There's a cool feature where it automatically turns on in certain situations like in tunnels. I wish I could add my own recirculation areas since i often drive by a smelly sewage treatment plant.

local_crmdgeon
This is an advertisement for the GMT800 platform - the greatest vehicles ever made.

Not only do they not do this, they have 0 capability to do this. You can buy a "new" bed for $400, same with doors. Bought 2 headlight assemblies for $25 recently. That set of repairs on a Rivian is $14,000.

omginternets
The amount of distraction in a modern car is staggering. You can be driving down the freeway and receive urgent sounding dings with no apparent cause. I can’t wait for the lawsuits.
rootusrootus
Ha, even my Model 3 doesn't do any of this (or at least it can all be disabled so you don't see or hear it). I'd be irritated if there weren't ways to disable all that misbehavior.

Fortunately there are still plenty of cars you can buy brand new today that don't have this level of suck. No need to suffer with a 20 year old unsafe heap of a car.

mavamaarten
Very recognizable!

I've driven quite a lot of different cars over the years, and every one has had the same and different flaws like these.

My current car (Audi) has a system that connects with other Audi's in the neighborhood and warns for "dangers" ahead. It cannot be disabled, not even temporarily. Those dangers are completely normal situations, unfortunately. It warns for "limited visibility" aka there is some light fog, but in practice this warning triggers every time there is some sun shining in the camera sensor. Another warning is slippery road, which is triggered when you plant your foot down and lose some traction (aka classic Audi driver behavior in my city).

The result is that almost every drive, even with perfectly sunny weather, you get a loud beep (the same beep as an engine check light or a flat tire warning) and a warning about poor visibility or slippery roads, which completely distracts you. It's bonkers. Why can't I disable this? I've seriously thought about pulling the SIM card in my car to break all network-enabled features.

callalex
Those features aren’t for you, they just put a coat of paint on them to pretend like it is. They are an excuse to increase data collection and reporting to the company.
driverdan
A friend of mine has a 2023 Audi. Some of the front sensors are already damaged from normal driving. Apparently any scratches cause them to become unreliable.
shortcake27
I'm currently renting a newish Fiat 500. If I open the drivers door when the Start/Stop system is engaged, the engine won't restart. I can't even turn the key to start the car - the key needs to be completely removed from the ignition and inserted again. Causing the infotainment system to go into a 30 second restart.

Luckily there's a button that disables the system, which I need to remember to press if I need to get out of the car to open a gate or check I'm centered in a parking spot.

I am really trying to understand what problem the engineers at Fiat were solving when they implemented this functionality. What is the "problem" with the engine restarting when the key is in the ignition in the on position, when I'm sat in the seat, all doors closed, clutch depressed, while the car is still in neutral.

"Oh no! The driver is going to be really confused if they leave the key in the ignition, open the door for three seconds, then get back into the car, and the engine starts when they press the clutch like it would if they didn't open the door. Better brick the entire car until the key is completely removed and reinserted into the ignition."

dontlaugh
My car also disables the start/stop system when I unlatch my driver's seatbelt. The engine does start by turning the key, though.

I think the logic is that if the driver left the car, there should be no danger of the engine starting without a driver, in case someone or something accidentally pressed the clutch.

erulabs
It’s astonishing to me that car companies continue to push infotainment solutions like they do. It’s clearly outsourced to the cheapest possible development groups. Say what you will about Tesla, at least the center dash feels contemporary. I’m getting sick of it changing constantly, but on the other hand is my 2021 Hondas computer which feels like it would have been pretty cool in 1994.

You’d think BMW or Porsche would be the company to seriously invest in a Car OS, but it keeps not happening. I guess no one cares?

nikanj
Big companies refuse to believe it's a better deal to get one $250k programmer than 10 $25k programmers.
Pxtl
Right? I just want them to give up. I know the era of the replaceable head unit is over, and probably rightly since modern screens are much larger than you could fit in those days. But please let me swap out the infotainment computer. I can find get a device that provides better maps, phone, and GPS in my old desk drawer.

Just let me flip up the screen and plug an SBC into some USB ports and a DisplayPort.

CamperBob2
You’d think BMW or Porsche would be the company to seriously invest in a Car OS, but it keeps not happening. I guess no one cares?

Oh, they care, all right. VW has tried, multiple times (see the whole Cariad debacle). Now GM thinks they can succeed where VW and others have failed.

Automakers simply don't understand the facts of life: there's a club consisting of technology companies who determine how consumers engage with their 'smart' devices, and they ain't in it.

Porsche at least shows some signs of understanding that. They have recently told their parent company to take a long walk off a short pier, and are opening talks with Google. VW AG's technological blundering has probably already cost Porsche billions... and counting.

kaftoy
Mercedes is trying with MBOS.
jacquesm
Mercedes is absolutely terrible at software development. The cars themselves used to be fantastic but it's mostly plastic junk now that just looks flashy and the software is so bad it should be illegal.
JohnBooty
This is a real cycle of suck.

An auto is complex and it's very hard, if not impossible, to figure out how nice or annoying it's going to be until you've really spent some serious time with it.

So automakers make these infuriating cars, and people buy them because it's hard to tell how infuriating they are, but by then it's too late for the customer, and so the automaker is never properly incentivized to make their things suck less.

freitzkriesler2
Damn the author hit the experience on my head. I was (forced) into an electric car rental by Hertz and it was one of the most awful experiences I had. Brand escapes me now, but it did everything the author was ranting about. I'm glad it was only a rental.

The nice thing I love about my bmw is the coding apps that exist for it. The first thing I did was code the car to not chime at me for a seat belt and more importantly, not throw up a warning message on the infotainment system.

I've edited more things using that coding app too but having the ability to do that is important to me.

lacoolj
For others wondering, the article refers to a Kia Ceed
s1gnp0st
Settings you can't access from the UI of your car can often be changed by purchasing an OBD2 cable and using the config software for your car brand.

One of the first things I do with a new Toyota is pop open Techstream. Just don't break your engine by fiddling with things other than cabin light delays, car alarms, etc.

interstice
So far my newest car is a 2006 BMW with just enough electronics to be helpful but not so much I get the constant noises I've had when renting anything newer. Amazingly nothing major has let go yet.

Did enjoy renting a Tesla Model 3 but I can't stand the 'modern minimal apartment' driving experience, give me a Supra style wrap around cockpit or give me death.

What I came to say though, is this is making me want to restomod my way through the rest of my car ownership career, I'm almost done with a 1981 Mini but after that putting tesla motors and pi driven dashboards in cars exclusively from pre 2010 has a growing appeal.

jacquesm
A 1981 Mini is a great way to get killed. I've had 11 of them (not a typo) and I can probably do a tear down and rebuild while blindfolded but I wouldn't drive one day to day for any amount of money. I did take one on a trip to Scotland and it was a fantastic experience and tons of fun comments from passers by (Clubman, Innocenti engine boosted as far as it would go) but seeing the truck wheels pass by from below the axle is a sobering picture. Please drive something solid.
dontlaugh
The Aygo/C1/107 would probably be the closest thing to a classic Mini, but still safe. The 1st gen BMW Mini gets close too.
jacquesm
If an Aygo hit a classic Mini I suspect you wouldn't be able to tell that there were two vehicles involved in the collision, the Aygo would probably drive right through the other vehicle, especially if the Aygo hit the Mini from the side.

I've looked at strengthening the Mini chassis but gave up on account of the kind of weight that would add.

interstice
Hi fellow mini owner! For anyone else reading this - I wholeheartedly agree. Do not buy a mini without knowing what you're getting into.

For myself - Mini's were my first two cars, and the second one is the one I'm restoring. For some reason I still don't fully understand my parents encouraged me to own a vehicle with the reliability and structural strength of a wet paper towel.. And if you know me I'm not exactly risk averse. But I love that thing and it's still one of the most fun vehicles I've driven after all this time. It's also possible to rev it out without constantly breaking the speed limit, something that the BMW and my CBR 1000RR both struggle with (CBR gets plenty of track time).

It's been repainted, solid subframe mounts, blue coil springs, adjustable dampers, adjustable brake bias, disk brakes at the front - you name it. Currently planning the build of a 1275GT motor (SW1 cam etc) and planning to use a Motogadget blue unit to solve many of the electrical gremlins. I don't know if it will be a daily or even if I will keep it long (I love building stuff so when its done I start looking for the next thing), but I've always meant to do some mini club cruises.

jacquesm
Looks like you have the right idea :)

Being risk averse will probably at least result in you driving it like your life is on the line (which it is...).

Keep an eye on the dogbone mount where it goes into the firewall as well as the linkage arms (they're flimsy) and steering housing. Any failure there can cause instantaneous trajectory changes that you can't correct any more.

Clubs are a good way to get to know other people that have done a lot of work on Minis, they're a hoot to drive. If you ride a bike then you're probably already taking the same kind of risk that driving a Mini holds, the bigger problem is other vehicles not seeing you.

Best of luck! And if you ever run into any weird issues hit me up, email in profile.

tristor
I just bought a brand new Mazda3 (2024 model year) and picked it up on Monday. I am able to disable all of the features you're mentioning on this car, and I can also choose whether alerts are only visual in the HUD or if they are visual + audible.

The only thing I can't disable is the ding when you start the car without first having your driver's seatbelt buckled, which does annoy the shit out of me because it's a turbo car and I want to give it a few seconds of warm-up before driving to be nicer to it, which I do while getting settled. I always wear a seatbelt, but I buckle it last before I start driving, not first when I first get in the car.

Otherwise it seems pretty great. It was very annoying off the lot, but 20 minutes with the owner's manual in my driveway and I made it tolerable while keeping all the advance technology.

Maybe I'll find additional annoyances over time, this is my first car I've owned with all the new-fangled safety technology designed for normies who can't drive properly.

SamuelAdams
Wait until you find out about the Mazda telemetry / data collection. Disabling it results in a prompt asking to re-enable it every time you start your car.

Imagine if your iPhone asked you to enable some non-default setting every time you unlocked it. As if you had the audacity to change your devices’ behavior!

izacus
In EU, the 2024 Mazda3s now have to comply with new directive where they DING every time you go slightly over the speed limit. What they think is a speed limit (which is commonly inaccurate due to bad nav data or bad sign recognition data).

DING.

tristor
In the US, you can turn the ding or visual indicator off. You can also adjust when the notification happens. I kept it to visual only and set it to alert when I went more than 5MPH over the speed limit, because I want to help keep myself honest.

It's disappointing it's forced to ding in the EU. In the US, there are many roads where you /must/ drive over the speed limit or you become a road obstruction that is actually putting yourself and others at risk. As an example, several Interstate highways have sections that drop to 65MPH through major metros but outside of high-traffic periods, the established speed is 80MPH on these, just as it is on other sections of the same Interstate (where the speed limit is likely 75MPH).

LargoLasskhyfv
Then make it mandatory to have all the vehicles equipped with 'Dingibility', just like in the movie Demolition Man :-)
neogodless
Same. Have a 2023 CX-5. Spouse disables the lane guidance. I can live with it.

The seat belt chime is too damn loud and persistent. And it seems crazy that it chimes even with the car in park!

pa7ch
2021 cx-30. I would even rip apart the center console if I knew a way to disable this.
FireBeyond
See whether it is possible to disable via coding (OBD). My Audi can be customized down to "how many dings, including zero", and when they trigger, like "not if you're stopped".
scohesc
That is insanely frustrating.

Does the car turn itself off if you're in park and undo your seatbelt?

tristor
No. But if you ever remove your seatbelt while it's on, it immediately starts dinging, even if you're in park with the parking brake set (which is an electronic parking brake). It typically takes me around 20-30 seconds to get settled before I drive after I get in the car, and for that entire time it dings every 5 seconds until I buckle the seatbelt.

For someone that is obsessive about safety and is a skilled driver, it feels like some type of indictment that my vehicle is insulting me and accusing me of wanting to drive without a seatbelt, which is the furthest thing from the truth.

scohesc
Part of me thinks it's auto companies both making sure they dot their i's and cross their t's in case they get hauled into court regarding vehicle safety as well as hammering "look, we're safer than other vehicles!" down consumers' throats.

Or my perceived level of competence among the average driver is way off and the general population needs to be coddled.

batch12
Sibling commenter- looks like you've been shadowbanned since you came back in 2022. You might want to reach out to the moderators to see if you can get this removed.
csours
Some of those dings are mandatory
tristor
I'm guessing the driver's seatbelt ding is one of the mandatory ones. Thanks to the 99% of terrible drivers in the US and our incompetent regulators, we get enforced mandatory enshittification.
jancsika
If 99% of the drivers in the U.S. are indeed terrible, then anything that makes 100% of the drivers strap into their seatbelt upon entering the vehicle is improving safety. In that case, the regulators would be competent.

Enshittification would be something like selling third-party access to drivers eyeballs in a way that fucks up the infotainment UX, or selling driver data in a scummy way that encourages phishing attacks from within the infotainment screen.

Not sure how it would actually continue from there, but eventually this process of screwing up the end product in the interest of rent-seeking would make it difficult for the person to actually drive from point and to point b, which is the whole purpose the car was designed for. And at that point people would start questioning Kia (or whatever) as an actual vehicle useful for transportation, and the company would then fail.

That would be enshittification. What you describe is just an annoying safety feature.

rovolo
You're correct about it being mandatory:

> At the left front designated seating position (driver's position), a warning system that activates a continuous or intermittent audible signal for a period of not less than 4 seconds and not more than 8 seconds and that activates a continuous or flashing warning light visible to the driver for not less than 60 seconds (beginning when the vehicle ignition switch is moved to the “on” or the “start” position) when condition (A) exists simultaneously with condition (B) ...

> (A) The vehicle's ignition switch is moved to the “on” position or to the “start” position.

> (B) The driver's automatic belt is not in use, as determined by the belt latch mechanism not being fastened, ...

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-571/section-571.2...

HnUser12
I think they can optimize the ding to be tolerable. I own Subaru in Canada and it only dings me for seatbelts after I starting moving faster than 20kmph.

Even if the regulations require a ding for any speed, I assume it doesn’t need to ding when in park.

tristor
That would have been a significant improvement. But compared to the OPs experience in the link, I am okay with my current level of frustration. This is a small item to be bothered by.
rickreynoldssf
I just bought a Mazda MX5. I love the car but utterly loathe the "entertainment system". When it isn't hanging/crashing (which it does about once a week) it prevents using any of the screen controls while the car is moving. Instead you need to take your eyes off the road longer to use a physical dial to scroll to the control you want to press. Oh and this weekend I kept getting warnings about high-wind conditions 200 miles away from me that I could not close at all while the car was moving, meanwhile no music and no GPS.

I just don't understand how whoever approves this thinks it's a good idea. It seems to be this way across almost all Mazda models. There used to be a way to turn that off but Mazda removed that. So there are indeed people actively making this moronic behavior a thing.

yeahboats
Before carplay and android auto, at least on my 2015 Mazda3, the UI was designed with the knob in mind, and you could quickly navigate through the menus without looking once you became familiar with the most often used functions. Of course, now that you have interfaces that were not designed with a knob in mind, we suffer trying to spin the knob and highlight the appropriate touch point.
polalavik
The knob is a UI/UX disaster itself. A digital system that literally requires you to look at the screen instead of the road to access nested after nested menu items.
wonnage
Mazda removed touchscreens from all models starting 2019 or so: https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur...

So consider yourself lucky to even have the option!

I personally think Mazda has the least annoying tech of any mainstream car - you can generally turn off annoying beeps (unless legally required), they've kept physical controls for everything, and they've managed to maintain some semblance of steering feedback.

neogodless
I believe they've begun to re-add them. And if not, they will next year.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/08/07/mazda-adds-touchs...

0x457
Hard disagree. My MX5 is my favorite car I had in the last 10 years.

My only gripe with it: Car Play crashes sporadically, while Android Auto works just fine, also why Wi-Fi isn't working for AA?

Not once have I used it as a touch screen or taken my eyes off the road to use a physical dial. You know where I did have to do it? In my Jeep that is only touch screen and buttons don't remember what I'm currently using unlike MX5. Also, those high wind warnings are far more annoying in Jeep than in Miata.

: If I'm using car's radio and Car Play's Google Maps - pressing the nav button will bring Google Maps and pressing the media button will bring the car's radio. While in some cars, it will always bring the car's version of utility or always Car Play/AA version.

vtbassmatt
I have a 2021 MX-5. The dealer had to do a software update recently which fixed most of the hanging/crashing bugs in the infotainment system. It also fixed a very weird issue where Google Maps would be 5-20 seconds behind on CarPlay (meaning I frequently missed my turn!).

The weather alert thing is super annoying, but it can be disabled. I had to re-disable it after the infotainment update, presumably because they disconnected the battery. I wish I remembered which random place I had to go in the UI to disable it... IIRC it was hidden in the settings for traffic or something?!?

Edit: It's buried in Sirius settings. I don't subscribe to Sirius, so I wouldn't have thought to go there, except I had exhausted all other options.

narag
My last car was a previous version. I was able to disable the change lane warning and other annoyances and didn't use any "infotainment" except connecting the phone or plugging a USB stick with MP3s. No GPS either.

The change lane warning was terrible. In a busy city it was totally wrong: approaching the line in anticipation of changing lanes is unavoidable. It also triggered when another vehicle behind was approaching still very far away. I tried to come to terms with the system, but I had to disable it all eventually.

I'm afraid of buying a new one. If all that crap is impossible to disable, I refuse to pay for it.

lsaferite
> disable the change lane warning

Does Mazda not disable the lane change warning when you use a turn signal?

narag
The warning triggers when you approach the line, not when you cross the line. That seems logical, but it was calibrated in a way that it started even if I moved a little to the left so I could use the rear-view mirror, as usual when I have a truck behind me.

Other times it started even driving totally centered in the lane, why? Irregularities in the road surface or temporary lines that someone painted during works and nobody deleted properly.

The alerts were dangerous because, if I'm already paying attention, I now get the idea that there's some danger elsewhere so I just start to nervously look in all directions, before reaching the conclusion that the system is incorrectly second guessing me.

shostack
Just know if you're ever in a related accident, insurance will ask/check if that was enabled for their analysis.
FireBeyond
Not unless there's a lot of money on the line.

Step daughter had an accident where the issue was a collision mid intersection, assumption of one party running a red light. No cameras, no witnesses except her and the other party, and both were adamant they had a green.

The car she was driving absolutely has telemetry that could have shown "was she at a complete stop, and for how long", immediately before the collision, i.e. showing being stopped at a red light before going (still some discussion on timing if jumping the gun, sure).

Insurance wasn't even remotely interested. It's not worth it to get that information unless, like I (and they) said, it's a very serious accident with a lot of money on the line and no other ways to determine fault.

toast0
How does that help? If you use a turn signal when changing lanes, it should only be done after you've departed your lane, as an indicator that it was intentional. :p
callalex
There are so many people in these kinds of threads that tattle on themselves and will never admit that they might have unsafe driving habits.
0x457
It does.
stinos
I'm driving a dumb car. It's getting old, showing its age, opens by putting a physical key into the door. It has like zero annoyances (except f'ng over the climate I guess). It has buttons. It has a radio with buttons I can control without having to take my eyes fo the road. The radio is probably the most sophisticated piece of electronics in it, gladly connecting with everything sensible because it has a line-in jack. tldr; the car plainly and simply just works and is a tool with an awesome utility value for me (especially nice is that given the age we don't care at all anymore about scratches, so I can literally throw my bike in and not care).

Now, the sad thing is: this should be normal. And 20 years or so ago, this would have been just a normal car amongst most others. Today, compared with cars like the one in OP's rant, it's as if my dumb cheap ugly car is a feature for behaving the way it does. The other sad thing being that a lot of people don't seem to realize this. Like, waiting for your trunk to close is somehow a good thing. I'll probably won't get a car anymore when this one breaks down (yes, I know I'm lucky I can get away with that, stil..). I don't want to feel getting annoyed and dumbed down by something which should be my tool, not the other way around.

303uru
I'd love to be car free again, I spent 5-ish years exclusively riding my bike and I miss it like crazy.

I had a 95 Camry that I loved to death until it died spectacularly on I70 outside of Vail. Then I had an Audi RS3 that was fun to floor from time to time but otherwise annoyed the hell out me. The tech was absolute crap, everything was overly complicated, just annoying. I now has a Model 3 and despite having the most tech of them all, it does it astonishingly well. I have all the climate controls set to auto and I have not touched them in three years. The car preheats/cools at a set time every morning so when I get in with the kids it's comfy. I never think about gas or maintenance. I don't even need to remember to grab a key. You literally get in with your phone in your pocket, put it in drive and go, using only one pedal to drive. In the weirdest way it's the best dumb car I've driven (and I was a freelance automotive reviewer reviewing 2-3 cars a week for almost 10 years).

stinos
Thanks for this alternative view on things, makes me realize even more it's not the tech per se which is the issue, but the way it is executed.
flashback2199
New cars with minimal electronics do exist on the US market, but they are on the low end. Still, saving a lot of money and having no annoying features might make them worth considering.
andrelaszlo
Thank you, this makes me appreciate my rusty old Saab even more. It's in the shop a few weeks every year, but it seems like it's worth it!
svilen_dobrev
> infotainment unit

oh. mine has exactly 5,000 slots for mp3 filenames. Not seeing more. A 2022 top-model car. And that "supercomputer" boots in freaking 35+seconds.. Well, i have 35000 songs to listen to. so.. Bundle them together.. LP-sides-like.

Zuruck in zukunft?

karmakurtisaani
I bet it's shit on purpose. Now, if you pay 5000 euros more for the premium model, you'll get 10 times more songs and boot in 10 seconds (I.e., they'll flip the premium model flag bit in the car software)!
svilen_dobrev
it was a top-ever model. No further premiums. comeon, who can fit more than 5000 pieces on a 256Gb USB stick?

but, i forgot these ones..

> goddamn tires

ah yes. ding.. it complains about tire pressure being different. Nah, it won't tell which tire. Or how much (1% or 10% or 70%).

So if you see me suddenly stopping in empty mid highway, and walking 3 times around the car kicking each tire 2 times exactly, that's a good omen.. when the sun heats on the left..

> wiggling the wheel

ah and this one. On a laser-straight highway. With perfectly aligned wheels and drive train. With 170km/h. You must wiggle the steering wheel.. or you'll be ding-donged to insanity. Safety first?

karmakurtisaani
> it was a top-ever model. No further premiums.

I see, perhaps in that case you have to wait for a couple of years for a very reasonably priced upgrade (subscription model!) to unlock the extra features (that are there all the time, just restricted by software).

hotnfresh
> ah yes. ding.. it complains about tire pressure being different. Nah, it won't tell which tire. Or how much (1% or 10% or 70%).

I've given up on tire pressure sensors. Our tire pressure alert light is probably on 50% of the time.

Check tires, half the time they all read fine. They all look fine. They're OK, then the temp drops 10 degrees F, now the light's on. Man, I just can't be bothered. Tell me which the fuck tire you're worried about (which you fucking know!) and I'll start paying attention again. The guessing game is no fun.

alexstore06
Very entertaining.

Many features can be disabled, and most allow you to do things the old way (e.g., closing the trunk manually), but some features either block you from doing things any other way or making it extremely difficult to do the old way, for example minivans with power doors make make it very difficult to open a door manually and refuse to open when the vehicle is not in park.

Old cars have their own drawbacks, but at least they're not bossy.

isoprophlex
I wrote this mostly to test-drive the awesome mataroa blogging platform. Wanted to write a short two paragraphs but once I got into it, there was no end to my pent up annoyance at the sorry state of car software UX.
jacquesm
Great writing! And I totally sympathize which is why I now drive a rebuilt 26 year old car.
oneepic
What is the make/model, so we can avoid/be wary of it?
ghostly_s
seriously, why would you avoid naming whilst shamung?
isoprophlex
I edited the post to contain that info (a Kia Ceed) as I'd want to avoid that myself too. But sadly I think that means avoiding 90% of all new cars nowadays...
jaclaz
JFYI, you can call yourself lucky with engine starting, the new i20 (Hyunday, so from Corea as well) in order to start needs:

1) neutral

2) clutch depressed

AND:

3) brake depressed (hand brake pulled doesn't count)

greesil
I was reading it and said to myself "geez, sounds like that Kia minivan I rented". I got to the end and was delighted.

The two cars I actually own, a VW and a Toyota have much better experiences in my opinion.

oneepic
also I suck with car knowledge, but I believe the hot tire pressure is different from when they're cold. Perhaps the car's software doesn't take that into account?
Reubachi
hot air=denser. When tires travelling on road, rubber get hot. Hot rubber make hot air.

So, "low pressure" after an extended drive is opposite of expected behavior. More common that you prolly run into yourself is the low pressure light in the mornign when it's cold, that then goes away as you drive for a little bit.

odensc
Some cars use "indirect TPMS," which means instead of a sensor in the tire's valve stem, it measures the speed of each wheel and uses some fancy math to determine if the pressure is low.

I'm not sure if the Kia Ceed is one of such cars, but if it is, there may be some wackiness in their indirect TPMS system. Especially considering the OP says it only happens after prolonged driving at high speeds.

Sohcahtoa82
My wife's 2015 CRV works this way.

We've verified with three tire pressure readers that all the tires are the exact same pressure (within ~0.5 PSI). We've manually done the magic to reset the computer.

The TPMS system light still comes on after a few minutes of driving. Dealer service department has no idea what's wrong.

theandrewbailey
Yeah, friction heats the tires (and air inside them) when being driven, more so with more speed and time, creating extra pressure in the tires. I've had my car complain to me about tire pressure a handful of times, only to check the pressure and noticed 3 more PSI than usual in one tire, all others OK.
JohnBooty
Raising the temp raises the tire pressure, so that definitely shouldn't cause a low pressure warning.

But, broadly speaking, definitely sounds like they didn't take something into account w.r.t. hot tire pressure. Maybe the tire sensors are throwing a warning because the temp is too high, and the software is incorrectly displaying it as a low pressure warning, or... or some other hellish combination of failure.

ragingrobot
> the software is incorrectly displaying it as a low pressure warning

The post doesn't specify if the display actually says low pressure, or if the TPMS warning light comes on, which we usually interpret as low pressure (most common case). If it is the TPMS light, I'm sure that's more of an "out of range" warning than "low pressure."

JohnBooty
The post specifically says, "It complains about low tire pressure" so I took the author at their word.

But on the other hand, you may be right. Maybe it's just a TPMS light. It's a fun ranty blog post, the author wasn't necessarily being super precise with language =)

But the other other hand, not all TPMS systems can detect overpressure (indirect TPMS only detects underpressure)

doubled112
I believe air pressure increases with temperature, which shouldn't set off a low pressure warning.

I wonder which style of tire pressure monitoring they're using.

One is to measure the output from the wheel speed sensors. A difference in speed is assumed to mean a difference in size. A smaller tire must be a low tire.

The other is to have actual sensors in the tires that read pressures. They're usually paired to the car.

I have a set of tires (with sensors) in the garage that my car will pick up from the driveway. The sensor reads and everything looks great. The alarm will go off to tell me the sensor isn't reading anymore a few KMs from home, and it is correct.

FireBeyond
> The other is to have actual sensors in the tires that read pressures.

Hell, my car (admittedly a performance vehicle) will give you exact PSI, but more than that, even gives you individual tire temperatures.

elzbardico
"Demented Tamagotchi on Wheels"

You made my day with this. As the other guy said, just let the hate flow.

EdwardDiego
Yes, yes, let the hate flow through you.
RecycledEle
If you buy a car then they later ask you to accept a new TOS you should be able to refuse and return the car for a full refund.

You thought you had a contract with them, then they made you a counter offer. Under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) I think you have the right to refuse and get your money back.

lb1lf
This being enforced sure would put an end to TOS being revised. (Which, overall, would be a good thing.)

What I dream about is consumer protection laws mandating that the car owner can simply opt out of whatever 'services' the car offers and then not be nagged about it.

Just a large, friendly dialog box with the two options 'Sure, collect all the data you can about me, my passengers, my driving habits, the environs I drive in, and whatever inferences you may derive from collating data, including, but not limited to the above. The data will be sold to whoever are willing to pay us for them.' and 'Just leave me the heck alone!'

isoprophlex
This shit is so hilarious, it's a Kia... as Mozilla recently researched, they have updated their TOS to include storing "sexual orientation". What the hell do you need that info for? Why even expose yourself, as a company, to the potential public shaming once someone finds out that on page 542 of your new terms it says "we want to know what turns you on"?
callalex
The company doesn’t need that info. One random product manager or marketing manager that wants a promotion and has a KPI to beat Subaru cares about that metric for the 6 months that metric matters to them, and as a result hundreds of millions of people must suffer from undue stalking behavior.

But at least it’s Data Driven™

lsaferite
Out of curiosity, what model?

I have a 2020 Telluride and while it has a lot of the features you list, I can also configure almost all of them.

saghm
You should also be able to refuse and _not_ return the car but keep using it under the original terms that you actually signed with
dylan604
They should be forced to have separate updates for fixes/updates and another for new features. fixes/updates should not require new ToS, and should be possible to auto-update for safety reasons. new features should be forced to wait for an intentional agree to update before installing.
indentit
The problem here is that new features often involve some refactoring work. Then, if you didn't opt for feature X, the company isn't going to go out of their way to make and ship and maintain a fix for the old non-refactored version, so if you want fixes, there is no way to get them without feature X... Unless they are using feature flags of course, but then no fixes/updates are exactly "safe" for the combination of features agreed to.
saghm
Why can't they just maintain stable branches with bugfixes backported to them? You don't need feature flags for this, you can literally do this with just semver. Plenty of products support some number of previous minor versions but will backport bugfixes to them, and plenty of others have LTS releases that have a longer window of bugfixes still being made without new features.

If the claim is that there's something fundamental about car software that makes this less possible than literally every other type of software in existence, the burden is on the car companies to prove it. I strongly doubt this is the case, but if it is, I'd argue that the more prudent thing is to just _not_ keep adding features, because fixing bugs for the multi-ton behemoths hurtling alongside one another at high speeds sounds more important than literally anything that they could provide to the car that people have already decided is worthy of purchasing with the current set of features.

maxerickson
It's a perfectly manageable problem. We just have to tell them they have to manage it.
changoplatanero
on my car you can disable the audible alerts for many of these features and i think you can disable the safety features entirely if you so desire
hellotheretoday
Some manufacturers don’t allow this. My partner got a 22 Subaru forester and the audible alerts cannot be turned off without disabling the system altogether. although to be fair they are relative unobtrusive most of the time unless they are critical

This is a disturbing trend though. The car has in cabin cameras to identify the driver. So if I drive it I’m recognized and the seat is adjusted automatically. Handy, right? However, they also have “features” like gestures to adjust the climate control where you make a fist in the air to adjust the temperature up. This is remarkably easy to false trigger. There is no way to turn it off except via the dealer who assured us at delivery that it could be turned off (I was certain this feature would be stupid and annoying during test drive and was right). However, it’s still on a year later because none of their stupid techs can figure out how to turn it off. We almost want to return the car over this. It’s very frustrating to be driving down the highway and having a discussion and suddenly the heat is set to 80F because you talk with your hands. Absolutely moronic design

I get a lack of ability to disable alerts and controls for the stuff related to autonomous driving/lane assist/acc/etc; I’m sure that’s rife with legal liability and allowing the system to work without alerts has some lawyer on their team all freaked out. But hvac control schemes?? Seriously??

lukas099
Is it a recent model year? If so, what make and model if you don't mind me asking?
isoprophlex
Sadly, in this case, the DINGs when starting the engine are hardcoded. The blind spot and lane departure system can be turned off, but forcefully turns back on when you restart the engine.
LesZedCB
lol, i have never understood the issue with toggles resetting on engine-off. like, what toggle EVER would you want that for?
metabagel
It must be for liability. It’s not for you. It’s to protect the automaker.
continuational
I think the reason is that you come to rely on the safety features, and if somebody else drives your car and turns it off, you're more likely to get in an accident now that it doesn't DING you.
lozenge
It's probably meant for when the sensors malfunction and you want to drive it to the nearest approved repair shop.
vrosas
Any reason you're hiding the make/model of the car?
isoprophlex
It seemed unimportant during the writing of that admittedly hyperbolic post because I think I'm having the perfect median 2023 new car experience; other than that no reason, it's a Kia Ceed. I'm probably getting a beat up 2003 volkswagen next.
UniverseHacker
Go for the ‘03 VW. Other than the auto trans, the Mark 4 Golf/Jetta (97-‘06) is arguably the best car ever made, and the TDIs are as efficient as a prius. A reliable, fun to drive car that only costs a few grand!
zelos
and the TDIs are as efficient as a prius

Not exactly. Real MPG figures put the best TDI at ~60MPG or 200g CO2/mile. Prius is 65MPG or ~165g CO2/mile, ignoring CO2 from extraction, refining etc. You can't directly compare diesel and petrol by mpg.

UniverseHacker
Renewable diesel is widely available in the USA, especially in California (where it's over half of diesel sold), which has about 1/3rd the CO2 footprint of petroleum diesel.

Yes, the newer Prius models are indeed slightly more fuel efficient than a 20 year old TDI, but the TDI has a much lower cost of ownership, lower carbon footprint, and most importantly- is much more fun to drive.

Both of those numbers are basically rural highway hypermiling numbers, not realistic long term averages. Actual TDI hypermilers can even get over 80mpg, of course driving really unusually (https://www.kbb.com/car-news/vw-golf-tdi-sets-fuel-economy-r...). I think Prius hypermilers do get even more than that. Realistically you're only going to get around 40-50mpg in either of them in regular use. One thing I really like about the TDI, is the economy doesn't drop as much if you drive aggressively, which I like to do.

To be honest though, an old TDI is a hobbyist car, to get it to be reliable you need to learn all about tuning and maintaining one.

shortcake27
I own a 2001 Corolla in a country I don't even live in any more. I put it into storage just to be able to use it when I visit, because it's more reliable, more practical, and infinitely less infuriating than literally anything sold in the past 15 years. Car cost me under $3k, 310,000kms on the original manual transmission and no issues. Meanwhile, 3 year old Subaru's are requiring $10,000 transmission replacements because manufacturers still can't build CVTs that last more than 80,000kms, and won't sell you a manual any more.