I say that not to be amusing but to point out that sometimes a biological symptom can have a non-biological root cause.
I say that not to be amusing but to point out that sometimes a biological symptom can have a non-biological root cause.
I've been trying to fix my long-term sleep issues for a while and I often don't get much deep sleep.
When I record my sleep through an Apple Watch and breathing microphone, I find my breathing rate goes up, often 25-30 breaths per minute but while awake it's < 20. I can't seem to find anything online that's relevant. It's been this way for the year I've been monitoring, does this happen to anyone else?
I'm sick of low-quality studies which try to draw causative conclusions from correlative observations (and usually often quite weak ones).
Stop writing garbage papers.
Have they considered people prone to dementia just aren't able to get quality sleep, and both of these are due to some other underlying cause where fixing one doesn't really fix the other?
Sleep quality is so important.
I'm not trying to be a sleptic, but that study says that.
"As none of the other measures, including subjective sleep quality, showed any change, it was concluded that short-term treatment of chronic insomnia with DSIP is not likely to be of major therapeutic benefit."
Maybe I read that wrong ?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NMTQM8M
Stick these tubes up your nose (all the way in!) and enjoy free-flowing air passage all night.
The first couple of days will be a bit uncomfortable and weird to have these things jammed in there, but you forget about them very quickly, and the huge increase in oxygen intake is amazing. I hate sleeping without them now.
as well as the constant temptation to check it for messages there is the random 3am buzzing as some app sends a spam notification.
As I've gotten older, the biggest challenge has been falling back asleep in the middle of the night after a wake up (for whatever reason, i.e., bathroom, noises, etc.), but the Niacinamide esp. from the formula seems to fix this and I sleep great. Thank you Steve!!
[1] https://www.grc.com/health/sleep/healthy_sleep_formula.htm
At night your reasoning abilty is massively impaired by melatonin. Thats why your thoughts keep going in circles and one does not find the most obvious solutions for a problem. There is only one thing to do. Let it go. You are at your worst, you're not supposed to reason right now.
This simple fact fixed crushing night thoughts for me and a friend of mine.
CYP1A2
https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/liver-detox-genes-cyp1a2/
The difference in sleep quality is dramatic.
If I have caffeine, even a small 20mg at 7am, I'm up 4-6 times the next night, going to the bathroom, superficial sleep.
Without caffeine, I'm in a deep sleep. So much so that I don't change positions at all, and my body slightly aches from being in the same position so long. My bladder nearly feels like it's going to burst, because I've slept so long.
There was a study I saw while back that said eating cruciferous vegetables speeds up caffeine metabolism. I've tried that, but that didn't seem to help. The caffeine still seemed to disturb my sleep. I tried BrocoMax, a broccoli supplement, that didn't seem to help either.
Exercise helps a little bit. But it's still not the quality of sleep I receive with zero caffeine.
I think much faster when I drink caffeine. Recently I revisited this issue and tried micro-dosing 5-Hour Energy (2mL). At first it seemed promising. But then it seems to slowly build up in my system. Sleep quality deteriorates slower. But the deterioration is there. I prematurely posted this status.
https://twitter.com/aantix/status/1706020516060971399
Sadly, it doesn't appear that I can drink caffeine and have quality sleep.
I hate that I have to choose.
"Because it’s not just the half life, caffeine has a quarter life, meaning it’s still has its hooks in my patient long after that morning sip. According to sleep scientist Matthew Walker, author of Why We Sleep, caffeine’s quarter life is about double its half life. This means that slow metabolizers like my patient may still be feeling the effects of their morning coffee well into the night. No wonder caffeine has been shown to be so disruptive of sleep. 4 After all, it binds to and blocks our adenosine receptors, the signaling pathways the body uses to fall asleep each night."
Hemodialysis.
Join the 'penumbra-side'.
More seriously, sorry you have that issue. Unfortunately, I can't think of anything useful I'm familiar with. You could look into 'inducers'. Wikipedia has a small list.
At least, though, it's good to know about the trade-offs - knowing that caffeine specifically comes at that kind of cost. Some suffer for years before determining what the actual root cause of some difficulty has been. With awareness, at least there is the possibility of volition / decision.
So the idea would be do consume caffeine in the morning, then perform hemodialysis in the evening to rid your blood stream of the circulating effects?
It's hard to say though! Sleep onset is one of those things that's very strongly affected by placebo/nocebo effects (i.e. the person in this thread who says drinking caffeine /permanently/ worsened his sleep even after discontinuation .. )
For those of you in this thread who know you're slow metabolizers... is the effect on sleep obvious in a way that's distinguishable from nocebo? Or is it pretty subtle?
If you’re drinking a morning coffee you’ll be getting 100-200mg of caffeine. But even a small amount of caffeine will take almost all the edge off withdrawal and prevent headaches. A 75g dark chocolate bar at 70% will give you 20-25mg of caffeine. Costco sells boxes of Lindt chocolate bars that meet this criteria. Eat one in the morning instead of coffee (the sugar and theobromine seems to help as well). Once you’ve done this for a week it’s easy to just stop because most people won’t get withdrawal symptoms from 20mg.
Theobromine is another stimulant, so I'm not sure it helps.
> "Eat one in the morning"
That's like ~ 35gr. of fat in the morning of which ~ 20gr. saturated fat. Ouch...
This taper method made it totally doable for me, no headaches. The hardest part was going from 2 espressos to 1, mostly because of the habit. I substituted in herbal tea for my second cup....
In Australia, the convention I've seen is broadly 10-12g dry with a 2:1 ratio. I normally go a bit higher if pulling a ristretto.
I don't believe my portafilter would perform very well with 7g.
And that was my stance for a long time.
I didn't realize that there could be such a distinction in one's reaction to caffeine intake.
"The genetics of caffeine sensitivity also have implications for cardiovascular health.
In a 2006 study of more than 4,000 people, researchers found that for slow metabolizers, consuming more cups of coffee per day was associated with an increased risk of a heart attack. Fast metabolizers had no such increased risks."
Everyone intuitively knows that if 100 people each consume 100 calories, there will be some variation in how much of those 100 calories is "used" by each individual. But I had no idea the distribution is on the scale of 330%!
Meaning in this example, some people would only get 30 usable calories, and some would get the full 100! That was way larger of a spread than I thought.
So that persons numbers make very little sense.
I have zero response to caffeine up to a certain point, and then past that I get shaky and anxious. One cup of tea, no response. Two is too much. Coffee is often on the edge. But no effect on alertness no matter how much or little I take.
If you have a 23andme account:
I’d think in the first few months of quitting you’d be overtired from withdraw and might sleep better.
I sleep really well with a 200-400mg of Ibuprofen but it's not something I want to take often or at all for sleep. Curcumin/turmeric is also anti-inflammatory. I'm starting to think that cutting out all caffeine (cup of black tea in the morning) and taking some curcumin might be the way to better sleep.
Have you found any supplements or alternatives that increase focus but did not impact your sleep quality?
Sadly, I have no alternative recommendations. Everything that claims to increase "focus", also appears to impact my sleep.
Seriously.
I panic if I run out
Aerobic exercise (preferably outdoors) is the one thing that works with mostly positive side effects.
I am _hugely_ sensitive to caffeine and feel a buzz even from decaf. It ruins my sleep in a similar way to what a couple people in this thread describe.
I take 10mg of instant-release Ritalin at 7AM each day, and it allows me to focus and deliver. It wears off by around 2-3PM, and I sleep like a rock most nights.
There are downsides as well: once it wears off, it leaves you mentally drained until you've slept. Also, there's a potential for building a tolerance, as well as potential for addiction. I've been lucky in both cases so far, but ymmv.
But I've been forcing myself to drink coffee for some of its benefits (heart and focus) and now I can drink coffee at 3pm, no jitters, no effect to sleep. I'm actually wondering if I sleep better by drinking coffee because I'm more active during the day and much more tired when I hit the bed now.
I do have a high tolerance though, but I don't weight much either.
I have even tried to give it up multiple times and have lasted well over a month before deciding that I was still more tired (and irritable) than when summoning it.
I stop drinking coffee and BAM, I sleep like a baby. It doesn't MATTER when I drink it, I can drink it at 6AM and I will not have a good deep sleep. I am unsure if this is coincidence, but I also notice I remember way less dreams when I am on caffeine than not. I also find it's a compounding effect which is why it's slightly annoying.
If I drink 1 cup, in 2 weeks, my sleep will be fine so I will think, okay, it's not the caffeine. Then I will continue drinking it for weeks and suddenly I haven't had a good nights rest in weeks and I'm wondering what is going on. Not having deep sleep for weeks really has a big impact on your stress levels, memory, emotional well being and general energy levels.
The annoying part is coffee is so good for productivity so I go through cycles (also you start to think it's the stress not the caffeine that's causing the sleep issue!)
Weeks of stressful work - drink more caffeine to get all the work done - bad sleep, bad mood, bad energy levels, aka all the negative affects from not having enough deep sleep.
Weeks of less stressful work, no caffeine, great sleep, great mood/energy levels, etc.
I've always convinced myself that not drinking caffeine for deep sleep is just placebo, but I've tested it so many times that it just can't be.
Is there a way to test if you're a slower metabolizer? I know my partner can drink 3 cups and she is totally fine, lucky her! I'm 100% convinced I am, but it would be cool to test by some sort of blood/urine test?
Then look at CYP1A2, see if you have the C/C genotype.
Definitely read the Genetic Life Hacks article that I linked to above.
Your DNA is worthless[0] and impossible to hide. If someone did want your DNA there is nothing you could do to stop them. You leave it everywhere you go.
[0] except to your children you don't know you have
They sell it to GlaxoSmithKline and others:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23andMe
not to mention the recent data breach
This seems to be the original paper. I don't find this paper particularly meaningful, but the effects they did observe showed A/C and C/C to be about the same, and both different than A/A.
This is based on a 5 hour after caffeine ingestion blood test in smokers. They found no differences in the non-smokers, but those were urine tests taken at variable times (whenever they peed), which seems sketchy to me.
Based on this study, subsequent studies (e.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16522833/) seem to group A/C and C/C together, and not look at them independently. C/C is rare enough that studies have trouble getting many individuals from that group.
Marker rs762551, as another poster noted above.
For 23andme customers: https://you.23andme.com/tools/data/?query=rs762551
Groan, I'm A/C!!
You can fix the habit by waiting a half hour longer to pee each night until you can make it to the morning, but this does involve lying awake in bed for a while, which is much worse for your sleep than just getting up quickly to pee.
Eating cruciferous vegetables, sleep, nothing has seemed to help much.
I tried taking BroccoMax for its Sulforaphane content. As suggested in the article below. Even when taking BroccoMax, ingesting a cup of coffee, my sleep still suffered.
Fast Caffeine Metabolism for Better Sleep with Sulforaphane
https://burtonator.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/fast-caffeine-me...
I 100% agree this is an affect of caffeine, but I'm also interested in what research on the following shows:
1. How does caffeine compare to other factors (stress, exercise, diet) in affecting sleep? 2. Does caffeine have a placebo affect on sleep quality?
I ask these questions, as I've found that caffeine does affect my sleep quality, but at the same time stress levels are probably a better predictor of how well I sleep.
I don't think having to pee has anything to do with the type of sleep you get. I've heard, if anything, it's a symptom of sleep apnea.
I wish I could alter the amount or intake mechanism and be fine, but it’s fundamentally what happens once it’s in my bloodstream.
for example, they sell it to GlaxoSmithKline
not to mention the recent data breach
They give you all the data – raw reads and a whole aligned genome for a fairly reasonable price
And if you're someone like me - beware that 'decaf' really isn't. Even as little as *5 mg* of caffeine causes me everything from sleeplessness to migraines (verified with a double blind study administered by my wife!)
Decaf coffee tastes about the same as regular coffee (some people claim to tell the difference, but I can’t except that when I get decaf it’s the cheap mass produced stuff and for regular coffee I like to support local roasters). Maybe the taste was triggering the same effects?
(1) Experimenter dissolved measured weight caffeine powder in water, and divided it into various measured portions, and labeled them with unique numbers. Then made identical measured portions of pure water, also labeled. She sealed the number assignments in an envelope.
(2) On experiment days, I chose a water portion, recording the day and number in secret - she could not see which portion I chose or what number it was. I then poured the water into whatever (zero caffeine!) drink (or whatever else I could mix it in with) I was having. I used drinks and food with strong enough flavors that I definitely could not taste the possible caffeine addition.
So now neither of us knows whether I took one of the caffeine ones.
(3) I recorded the day's results.
I have always slept 7.5 hours in my adult life. I wake up a couple times a night briefly (and usually recall 1-2 time a night that it happens) but fall back asleep quickly.
My room is dark, and cold. Most of the times when I wake up it's because I am warm from my mattress (casper wave).
I am now purchasing a chilling pad for my side of the mattress to address that so I sleep deeper and more consistently.
I take magnesium because I am very active and have suffered for the last year or so from hypnic jerks, which are terrifying but have gone away since I started taking magnesium supplements before bed.
I occasionally have a hard time falling asleep or wake up early and cant get back to bed, but I still average 7.5hrs over a year -- and over 3 years since ive been tracking my sleep nightly.
I get sufficient REM, dont drink alcohol, gave up weed, and only have caffeine from 9am - 11am daily (1 coffee usually, sometimes a shot of espresso in addition).
Yet my deep sleep averages are ~45 minutes a night.
I am about to be 39, and I am unclear what to change beyond the mattress cooling pad which I will measure.
I've also started cold showers when waking up (60 seconds of cold to end my shower, working towards 2 minutes).
My family has zero history of Dementia so I am not as worried, but I am concerned with staying in tip top cognitive shape if possible.
I am tempted to try a sleep study and see what I might learn.
Edit: Lots of comments to address here.
- I exercise 60-90 minutes daily.
- I play a high level of hockey 4 days a week, snowboard or mountain bike 5 days a week.
- I am slightly over weight by scale, but I am just an athletic build.
- I eat healthy and cook nearly every meal I eat (I live in an expensive ski town with only high end eateries so I avoid them). Lots of brown rice, protein, fruit, and veggies.
- I walk 30-60 minutes a day (active dog).
- I get plenty of sunlight (within 30 minutes of waking)
For me I get deep sleep best between around 8-10Pm and about 9Am-1pm. My sleep at night is fairly restless even if I try and do all the proper steps, but I can get great sleep pretty much no matter what during those hours.
I had sleep issues all my life. My dentist said it looked like I had sleep issues (one side of my teether pushed on more than the others) and a surgeon recommended increasing the size of my nasal cavity. But I didn't want surgery. When the book "Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art" by James Nestor I saw several unrelated people report success with this. It's completely changed my life and I wish I had started this long ago.
(Obviously not medical advice, I'm not a doctor at all, do your own research etc.)
I've managed to mostly tame it by putting a quilt or two under the bottom sheet.
Another thing that might be making a difference is what you do in the hour to two hours before sleep. If I do anything exciting, like sports, suspenseful media & games, or anything analytical, then that will delay how quickly my body relaxes into later in the night, which messes up the beginning of the night when deep sleep mostly occurs.
Lastly, if you're measuring your deep sleep based off of a device that isn't on your head, then take that data with a huge grain of salt. I compared sleep data from an Oura ring with the Dreem 2 headband and the ring was consistently so wrong as to be useless for driving better sleep behavior.
However, its activity recording is extremely inaccurate. I get moderate/low activity scores every day despite engaging in intensive weightlifting sessions, riding bicycles, and going to jujutsu class. I lift till I cannot lift; I roll until I gas out... yet my ring tells me, day after day, I need to be more active.
However also worth considering a better mattress, memory foam is really hot. I just upgraded to an innerspring base / latex & microcoil top, and my previous issues with overheating are gone. YMMV, there are arguments for cooling even if your passive situation isn’t too hot.
>However, we do know that moderate aerobic exercise increases the amount of slow wave sleep you get. Slow wave sleep refers to deep sleep, where the brain and body have a chance to rejuvenate.
ps. NAC can have sulfury/rotten-egg like scent, don't throw it away thinking it's outdated or something, it's normal
* magnesium (threonate form before bed)
* D3 BUT MUST BE TAKEN WITH magnesium. 5000IU + 500mg magnesium. These two are linked. Taking D3 without magnesium can make a magnesium deficiency worse. This made a monumental difference for me.
* B complex also very important
* Glycine improved my quality of sleep
I'm guessing you're taking magnesium L-threonate (Sometimes goes by Magtein). If not, it's worth a try.
> I've also started cold showers when waking up (60 seconds of cold to end my shower, working towards 2 minutes).
I do something similar. 3-min cold showers in the morning, yoga to regain the heat, then meditation, then breakfast. I feel it's relevant to my struggles with attention (doesn't throw me off like adderall does)
Best I ever slept was when I was cycling 45 minutes to and from work every day. It looks like you're doing quite a lot (of the same things I do) but if you're interested in throwing more in there... there's soemthing magical about the kind of cardio that lets you explore your limits.
As another poster asked -- I have had tons of trauma but also put work in to overcome it. I have a great, healthy life.
I always work hard to quiet my mind but sometimes its hard to. I am an entrepreneur but rarely find myself ruminating late at night about it (these days). When I am stressed I find it harder to fall asleep for sure, but that isn't as often as it was when I was younger
Everyone: "you should be less stressed for better health"
Also everyone: "you should work more and take on more responsibilities at work"
At 41, all I want to do is take care of myself and my family well. Everything else in my life can fight over the remaining bits of time.
Eh this doesn't sound like something everyone says.
1. Eat at the same time every day. When you eat impacts your circadian rhythm.
2. Sleep and wake up at the same time every day.
3. Exercise, fatigue from exercise is known to improve sleep.
4. Expose yourself to sunlight first thing in the morning.
5. Lose weight.
I strongly recommend to get sleep study, they will help to find the root of the symptoms.
10 years ago, I have issues with my sleeping pattern, waking up tired and still tired during the day. After my sleep study, I discovered I have sleep apnea which affects how I breathe during my sleeping cycle. After the diagnosis, I got a CPAP from my insurance and been using it ever since. It improved my sleep quality and I am able to dream more often than before.
If you have the same diagnosis as mine in the future, it will take some time to get used to Bi/CPAP. It can take up to a year to get used to it, it took me two years get used to wearing a mask. I was horrified to learn from my Somnologist that 90% of his patients are not consistent with CPAP usage or don't bother to use them. I know a friend's husband, who is a Physician Assistant, have the same diagnosis and refused to use the CPAP. His wife been begging him to use it because she can hear how he sleep during the night. Still to this day, he refused to use it and still complaining about the sleep quality.
At any time I call basically fall asleep within 5 minutes and I’m always tired. Has anyone else dealt with this?
I tried modafinil but felt horrible for weeks as I hoped my body would adjust. I’ve also considered armodafinil, but I fear the same effects.
The doctor wants me to try xyrem but it scares me, doesn’t have a lot of studies on it, and it’s basically a nonstarter because I have young jerks and need to be able to wake up if needed.
So all of that to say, is dementia inevitable for me? My guess is that I just sleep terrible.
Any advice is welcome.
Hell of a typo
That’s high. Surely someone can post scientific evidence that cpap helps with sleep despite the fact there’s almost 100% non-compliance.
/s
I think I’m mostly trying to understand what I can and cannot control in my life as I age
Do you have a high amount of ambient stress in your life? Existential fears? Past traumas? Unfulfilled responsibilities? Debt?
Goal in life is to sleep/wake whenever, bad thing is I can sleep a lot too eg. 14 hrs but I normally operate on 5 so I can tolerate my crap job
Taking magnesium threonate has helped immensely (The brand I buy is MagEnhance).
Using an Apple Watch as a tracker, my sleep patterns have improved greatly including deep sleep, but I wonder if it can get better.
- go to bed earlier than you think you need to (9-9:30pm for me)
- get outside and moving as early as possible. Ideally in bright light, and without a time-sensitive objective. For example, leave early to walk to work so it can be leisurely. Or wake up early enough that you can just go for a 15-20m walk with no destination and wake up your body.
- No screens past 6pm or so. I allow my watch, but I hide my phone. I will let it ruin my sleep over and over and over. I’m only a hairless ape, and I need to plan to prevent myself from doing ape things. The watch doesn’t seem to harm my sleep, but it functions as my alarm/quick way to set reminders/way to see the time or weather/etc. But I need to keep the phone far away.
Different things work for different people, and maybe you’re already pretty close to something like this anyway. I only mention it because I started with magnesium threonate too, and it was a long path to better sleep. I wish I figured this out 15 years ago!
"Up to 50 percent of US population is magnesium deficient" https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180226122548.h...
There are numerous sources for this figure; google if you want others.
Instead, let us change our environments to better suit the primates we still are.
The cheapest food options are the unhealthiest. Hours of overtime and long commutes prevent sufficient sleep. And exercise is considered a leisure activity.
I sleepwalk and sometimes have night terrors (where I hallucinate an intruder or spiders on the walls/ceiling). Lately I've been having them almost every day, despite practicing good bedtime habits.
Am I going to have early onset dementia? I wake up almost every morning with a headache from sleep deprivation
Do you have any conditions in the broad spectrum of "anxiety" disorders? I've had a pretty rocky relationship with my sympathetic nervous system; variably severe anxiety, some panic attacks, occasional bouts of depersonalization/derealization. It seems pretty likely that these symptoms spring from the same root cause as the "night terrors." Fortunately I'm not personally aware of a link between these issues and dementia, though I wouldn't be surprised if someone replies with a link to some study that ruins my day.
This sounds more like sleep paralysis than it does night terrors.
Importantly, there are NO medications known to help with "sleep" all those pills they sell as "sleep-aids" are technically called sedatives, or "hypnotics" medically and don't give the same benefits of sleep.
1. https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501...
- About 100 years ago the US military developed a technique for helping fighter pilots rapidly fall asleep. About 95% of people find this helpful. Use this guided sleep sequence to relax your entire body and have a deeper, faster, more restorative sleep. From your friends at http://EarthPilot.org
DURPLEDRANK'S GUIDE TO BETTER SLEEP:
Line your sleeping room with books. They are an inexpensive way to soundproof your room. If you have noisy neighbors upstairs, you'll "hear" them, but more importantly, you won't "feel" it.
Use comfortable earplugs and a baggy winter hat as a sleep mask. Sleep masks can be uncomfortable, so this is a great alternative.
Play a BROWNIAN NOISE loop on speakers in your room. You can easily generate this in Audacity with a few mouse clicks.
Take antacids before bed. Many sleep problems are linked to acid reflux. Drinking carbonated water or water with baking soda can make you feel tired instantly. For any scientists out there, please credit me for this discovery. If you have acid reflux, your brain won't let you sleep.
Stay warm. Being warm often makes you sleepy, although the reason isn't clear.
Use red lights in your sleep room to avoid blue light. Replace your reading lamp with a red light to help your brain switch into sleep mode.
Limit screen time. Dim the brightness and enable blue light blocking mode on your devices. Older devices may be less disruptive to sleep than modern ones.
Keep a notepad for quick Google searches. Whenever you have a random thought, jot it down on a to-do list to avoid grabbing your device. This helps you stay off screens.
Consider taking 1g of melatonin, but note that it may not be very effective if you have acid reflux.
Elevate your sleeping position to combat acid reflux. Even if you don't feel it, you might have some built-up reflux if you burp or fart after drinking carbonated water.
Invest in blackout curtains.
Cover every blinking light or power LED in your room with electrical tape to create a pitch-black environment.
Also, I've learned that less melatonin is actually more effective, so 0.1 MG or 0.3mg is likely a better dosage
Even with "nightshift red colours" I could stay up reading for hours vs even with something very interesting to me in actual book form + warm secondary light source = getting sleepy and quickly so.
I'm guessing melatonin does get depressed significantly as soon as you start looking directly into a light source.
So theoretically woman would have lower rates of dementia
She was always a very light sleeper, to the point she couldn't even sleep in the same bed with dad for many years.
As I have nothing lifestyle related to blame for her disease, I wonder whether her brain's glymphatic system was awry.
For me the most beneficial is to reduce the fear of missing out. Especially if you have kids, the tendency is to want to spend the evening hours when they are already in bed to "live your old life": game, watch movies, do other hobbies or activities. And then you go to bed too late.
I am trying to accept that I can watch maybe 1 movie per month, watch maybe 2 series per year, and read at most 1 book per week in the time between ~20:00 and 22:00 that my kids are asleep and I can spend freely without impacting my 8 hours of sleep.
So, every year 50 interesting movies come out. I'll never see 38 of them. I'll never read that interesting longread. I will never read Liu Cixin's "The Three-Body Problem".
For me, I think part of the problem is not having enough hours in the day to take care of myself. If you’ve gotten very busy with work or life, it’s hard to do the things you need to do to get healthy sleep.
I have read this claim for decades now, but I have trouble believing it. To me, a claim about pre-civilization human behavior doesn't have a whole lot of merit unless it can be explained as being evolutionarily advantageous to mammals in general or humans in particular. Humans are diurnal and I can't imagine a scenario in which "wasting" a few hour of potential sleep is worth it somehow in the middle of the night when it's dark and there's nothing to do anyway.
The closest I can come is that _maybe_ some small percentage of early humans were polyphasic sleepers, which benefited the tribe by watching out for a pack of hungry wolves or enemy tribe attacking in the middle of the night or whatever.
Impossible to give any better advice without any further information. Is the problem not enough hours in the day (e.g. time wasted on stuff like commuting etc.)? Or are you just unable to stay asleep longer than 6 hours?
My room is completely dark when I go to sleep. I use blackout curtains and have removed any sources of light from my room. In the summer it gets light very early in the UK (~04:00) and I require ventilation so I also wear an eye mask. I use a fan to mask any background noise and, in summer, this is blowing directly on me to keep me cool. I use a wool duvet which I found the best for temperature regulation; I require a weighty covering even when it's warm.
I use a Kobo which has an adjustable frontlight that can go both very low and very warm (redish). I set the Kobo's backlight to the lowest and warmest possible setting. I lie on my side with the Kobo on its side leaning on an adjacent pillow such that I don't have to hold it. Turning pages requires a light tap; there is no scrolling or swiping involved. At some point after a few pages of Iain M. Banks, or whatever I'm reading at the time (usually science fiction), I fall asleep. The Kobo automatically switches itself off after I stop turning pages and I wake in the morning with it next to me (or sometimes I've moved it but can't remember when/why).
It's important not to use something like TV that you need to actively switch off at some point and, if you use an object like a book or eReader, make sure it won't fall and wake you up when you start to nod off. Definitely don't hold it up with your hands. Don't use a phone because scrolling etc. is far too active and backlit screens just don't seem conducive to sleep. An eReader is perfect because it means you can turn the lights off but the frontlit e-ink screen is more like a book than a phone.
This method has been tried and tested with a partner in the same bed. You just need to make sure any objects don't fall on or get tangled up with said partner. I have a pillow system propped up by my bedside table for this purpose.
Dementia isn't an if for me, it's a when. I also think that they have the causation backwards.
I have a plan when it starts to show up, or if the strings of terrible days get to be just a little too long.
I'm in such a string right now.
Dementia is one thing but a string of terrible days is worth holding out till the end. If you're having trouble making the equation work for you, my advice is to devote yourself to alleviating the pain of others. Works for me anyway. Hopefully it's a universal approach.
If you ever want to vent, email's in my bio.
This seems like an unbeneficial belief to harbor in oneself.
You think you already have dementia and it is causing poor sleep?
This sounds like the arrow of causation is pointing the other way.
Interesting quotes:
"
The study found that []longer[] time spent in bed (TIB) was associated with significantly []increased[] dementia risk. Those in bed for more than 8 hours were far more likely to show a cognitive decline during a Mini Mental State Examination (MMSE)
[...]
The time individuals went to bed was also highlighted by researchers as a critical contributing factor [...] The research paper stated that “every 1 hour advance in bedtime [before 10 pm] was associated with a 25% increased risk of dementia.”
"
The only way for me to get enough good sleep is to either quit my job (without worrying the $$) or getting rid of the kid. None is doable.
Melatonin supplementation seems a questionable idea except for adjusting your circadian "inner clock" - according to this article:
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/E4cKD9iTWHaE7f3AJ/melatonin-...
That is: polyphasic sleep is not sustainable over a multi year period.
Humans can still do it while sailing in an ocean, on space ships and similar extreme locations.
However a significant relapse then follows in more "normal" places.
I'd love to see if someone was able to be productive for 3+ years on polyphasic sleep.
Personally I relapsed after a few months - maybe I never truly transitioned.
Buckminister Fuller apparently was close. > Fuller reportedly kept this Dymaxion sleep habit for two years, before quitting the routine because it conflicted with his business associates' sleep habits. (From his wikipedia page)
by far the most important thing you CAN do is have a consistent sleep schedule (every day! Including weekends!) and make your bed for sleeping and sex only.
- Japan has these drinks with 200mg of GABA, I don't know if it was the 20,000 steps we were doing every day or the drinks but on the days I had it deep sleep was often (not always) closer to an hour. Strangely enough GABA is illegal here in NZ so I'm trying L-Theanine with less obvious effects.
- Exercise (even 2h+ moderate) doesn't have any effect, adjusting caffeine doesn't seem to either
- A warm shower immediately before bed strangely did seem to have a considerable although not perfectly consistent effect
- Just got put on Concerta for ADHD and although im getting less sleep i'm also getting 40+ minutes of deep sleep. After recently doing research into GABA + Dopamine + etc it seems to be a bit of a brain circuit thing for me.
Edit: am i wrong, who doesn't sleep better and easier with that outcome in-hand?
There is a large body of research supporting this, a selection of which you can find on our website at https://soundmind.co
We don't alter the amount of time you sleep, we increase the synchronous firing of neurons, which is the hallmark of deep sleep.
Quite a few sleep supplements have started adding it to their formulas recently, using melatonin to initiate sleep and lavender oil to sustain it. It remains to be seen what side effects it has taken long term - there aren't any studies about this available as far as I could tell.
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/lavender-tea-t...
Is it "real" improved deep sleep? No idea.
I do blood tests for Magnesium (and D3, B12, etc) every so often to make sure I'm not poisoning myself.
> Cannabis users demonstrated significantly longer sleep latency and less REM sleep overall; no other differences occurred in objective sleep measures between groups.
Running has been the goto for me. Can push myself on a 5k run in the evening (6pm) and when 10pm hits, I'm 2x more tired than normal.
I'm not fully back into it yet mind you, but I'm running 20 miles a week and lifting weights 6 days a week. A lot of my workouts are zone 2. I sleep at least 8 hours and I get roughly 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight from my diet (i also make sure all my other macro and micro nutrient needs are met).
The excessive fatigue goes away if you are meeting your nutrient and sleep requirements and not consuming drugs or alcohol. Look up the "repeated bout effect". I feel like a teenager again after getting my exercise, nutrition, and sleep routine locked in.
edit: To clarify what I mean about "the excessive fatigue goes away", when I first started running there would be mornings where I would wake up and have significant mental and physical fatigue and the very thought of going to exercise was repulsive to me. That goes away with time, it's also a signal to maybe take it easy for the day and do zone 2 cardio instead.
As for how to improve sleep, there are plenty of advise, many of them commonsense (see in this thread). But I think that unless you are actually followed by a healthcare professional, in which case he would probably give better advise than random people on HN, how well you feel the next day is probably a better metric than some number on a smartwatch. And if the answer is "fine", I don't think there is a reason to worry much.
I find it interesting that it is never addressed in these common list of what to try to improve sleep. It's not rocket science managing it, just a matter of avoiding high histamine food after 5pm or so. Good sleep might be worth it.
I got helped by the usual suspects like avoiding caffeine after 14-15, earplugs, thick curtains and light cover over the eyes as well as cool temperatures in the sleeping room, but the big improvement came after I stopped eating after 20 in the night, and preferably earlier than that.
I wonder if they could design an interventional study in which people who are predisposed to dementia are given more sleep or melatonin, and then demonstrate whether it protects against the disease.
Sorry for the rant: we should not share university press release articles, they are always clickbait. Just share the research directly.
used to buy these but not in stock:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008MCTXJC
so now I got these:
https://www.theverge.com/2023/8/22/23837206/ozlo-sleepbuds-b...
1. They're noticeably "there" in my ears, or even mildly uncomfortable
2. I'm nervous about missing important sounds (family telephone emergencies, emergency door knocks, etc)
I don't travel without these now and they have been great, but after several successive nights of use I find my ear starts to get sore and sensitive to them.
The best thing, of course, is to live somewhere actually quiet. Most noise is from cars. But failing that I have to sleep with some white noise source like a fan.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051U7W32
I re-use the same set, washing them when I take a shower. I bought the above set of 50 years ago and still have many left.
A couple of tricks I use with these:
- I cut about 1/4" off the small end. If I don't, the earplug starts to hurt my ear if I wear it a lot, I think because it goes too far into my ear.
- before using a new earplug, I wash it several times with bar soap. There is something in a new ear plug that makes it stay mashed. Maybe it suppresses more noise with that, but it also makes it hard to fit for me. I keep washing it until it is springy. This is a one-time thing with a new ear plug.
But this is, of course, to ensure protection in the case of dangerously high sound pressure levels. Cutting them would also compromise them in this regard. Perhaps different if you are using them to block out low noises for sleep.
Which is fine, but in general I'd think having the luxury of being in a calm, comfortable and unworried state of mind is the most beneficial.
Do yourself a favor. Take off the nightcap, put on the striped pajamas and the old-timey candle holder, and book out a full 10 hours for a few weeks. Make it non-negotiable. Full darkness, clean air, quiet, the works. Maybe even get tested for sleep apnea if you're overweight.
If you go through that for 3 weeks religiously and return to the nightcap I'll eat my words and consider you a medical anomaly. But I think you'll come out of it convinced it's worth the sacrifice.
Are you sure the latter improved deep sleep? Alcohol is known to interfere with REM sleep, but I've actually found it lengthens the amount of time I spend in deep sleep if I have a single beer or something at dinner. I tracked this over months with a sleep tracker.
- no alcohol after dinner (none at all is better) - eat dinner as early as possible (before 7pm, even earlier is better) - turn off screens after 9pm (Kindle doesn't seem to impact, but phone/tablet/TV do) - exercise regularly, but not too close to bedtime - regular bed time and wake time (we go to bedroom 9:30-10, lights out 10:30, alarm at 6am).
Meditation and breathing exercise can help too, but I haven't had to try those much.
Also really darkening the bedroom and keeping the temperature as low as possible.
Now if there only were a consistent solution for energetic "night owl" toddlers to go with that ever more optimized regimen :D
getting a cpap can be a life changer.
I just can’t get good consistent deep sleep. I will say one thing that did help was i use to live in the city and after i moved outside of it and it was much much quieter at night (no trucks driving through or random sounds or honking in the middle of the night) i did notice an improvement.
The fan for me doubles as a way of getting air circulation. I keep windows open in other rooms, but not the bedroom - due to street noises. Having a CO2 monitor may give you some insights into another key factor impacting your sleep quality.
- No exercise after 18:30/6:30pm
- Absolutely avoid Vitamin D and Vitamin B supplements in the evening. These will suppress deep and REM sleep and I'll sleep lightly all night long if I take them.
- Hot sauna, shower, or bath before bed.
- Anti-histamine (cetirizine hydrochloride aka Zyrtec) as needed - I'm allergic to my wife's dog and some nights I feel like I have bugs crawling on my skin. It can even wake me up.
Things that keep me from waking up at night:
- Gas X as needed to avoid acid reflux
- Anti Inflammatory helps keep me from having to use the bathroom when I know I'm inflamed (getting old sucks).
- No alcohol in the evening
- No videogames, interesting books, or French lessons right before bed, or I'll be sleeping lightly and find myself ruminating in light sleep over these mentally engaging topics.
Huh, interesting. I find that I sometimes force myself to think on mentally engaging topics as it helps quiet the other, more negative things I might instead be ruminating on. It's counting sheep for me, really.
Antihistamines are associated with increased dementia if you take the wrong ones, so it's not a good way to get more sleep. Melatonin, trazodone or a newer sleep drug is safer.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-anticholinergic-d...
which is sometimes used for it's drowsy effect. cetirizine/loratidine are non-drowsy and I don't see any association known with dementia
Actually, more accurately, gas-x has an enzyme that helps break down oligosaccharides. The mechanism may be more complex than above if your acid reflux is somehow related to microbiome stuff (oligos are favorite food for all kinds of gut bacteria).
What does this sentence mean?
I thought he was feeling any kind of inflammation in his body.
I asked the pharmacist for a drowsy antihistamine the other day and they gave me something from behind the counter (no script required). No idea if it was anticholinergic: most drugs require compromises so if something works better for sleep for me I'll judge the risks for other side-effects.
Normally I use a loratidine if I wake in the early hours and that usually gets me back to sleep, even though it is non-drowsy.
I wanted to try a different antihistamine to see if it worked better: jury's out on that at the moment.
Personally I think it is very important to experiment on yourself, and test a variety of solutions. I will even test alternative medicine for important problems. I strongly avoid dangerous solutions. I am fairly conservative and I especially dislike taking pills, but I believe in the value of trying a bit of science on your problems.
You might also try no screens/TV/computers after dark. Keep interior lights at low levels and a warm color temperature after dark. Be intentional about doing calming, quiet things before bedtime.
That doesn’t sound very convincing.
You drink coffee because it makes you do more things at work / you are a slob without it because of addiction. You are not drinking it because it might make you better in bed or have less dementia in 50 years.
On the other hand we all need to sleep so doing it properly is a net positive
If you only shoot heroin once a week you will be perfectly fine
How many people resist the urge and only shoot heroin once a week?
We are humans, not perfectly diligent robots.
The first thing you say to a person with eating disorders is to throw all the junk food from their home. It’s close to impossible to resist even the “simple” temptation of food.
It’s much easier for a person to never start drinking coffee in the morning to “wake up” than starting and then quitting
maybe ask the 100 years of scientific publications about human behavior and addiction?
According to whom? Data says otherwise
https://www.statista.com/chart/19524/cups-of-coffee-drunk-by...
I usually consume two double espressos per day (both before noon) and don't have trouble falling asleep afterwards.
Given your entire comment is one massive strawman argument I will ignore the rest of it.
Heroin has proven benefits, this is why they give it to you at the hospital.
Given your entire comment is a massive lie I will ignore the rest of your replies
If you want to have an honest discussion, stop using these terrible analogies and bring actual scientific evidence.
This mentality of finding these shallow similarities and drawing these insane conclusions indicates that someone has very low intelligence.
This is your "deep" thought process
1. Caffeine is a drug
2. Heroin is also a drug
3. Caffeine can have negative effects on people when used in excess
4. Heroin can also have negative effects on people when used in excess!
ergo, caffeine is as bad as heroin
Never said this.
Perhaps if you didn’t “ignore” the rest of my comment you would have understood the point :)
2. Might not have to be one or the other - just make sure caffeine consumption is very early in the day
I'll add that I take a small magnesium supplement mid to late afternoon as well which helps me relax and if dreams are any indication of deeper sleep I have many more memorable dreams when I'm taking magnesium.
I take about 150MG of magnesium and 100mg of potassium before bed. The magnesium is Chloride, but in liquid form and causes no laxative effect (but tastes terrible!). It is a product called ReMag. I am sure other forms will work just as well. The potassium is Gluconate as it is PH neutral. Potassium Citrate and Chloride would work just as well. I just get the Gluconate from Walmart as it is cheap and effective.
I'll add, the mag oxide always prevents leg cramps when I take a full tablet (250mg) when I am working outside all day (and staying hydrated).
ETA: In my experience magnesium citrate is the one mostly likely to cause diarrhea though they all can.
I've also cut out coffee and that has helped my sinuses/upper throat a lot in the morning which were being irritated. I drink some varieties of tea instead.
outside of setting a sleep schedule, getting a sleep study to rule out sleep apnea and stimulating sleep with melatonin, all you can do is let your body do its thing